Comments working now...and a 'no comment'

If he can't be truly supportive

he can at least be consistent with the excuse that there are other things to worry about.

Fetch my pearls, I need to clutch them!

---

by: RainbowPhoenix @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 19:45:51 PM CDT

Why, why, why do people get sucked into trying to outshout the asshats.

Why, for instance, doesn't Joe say, "I'm afraid I can't outshout Maggie and wll wait until you can control her, and allow me an opportunity to respond."

---

by: Pollyanna @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:02:14 PM CDT

It's all about the children...

Sigh

---

by: Will St. James @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:18:55 PM CDT

Yes, always the children.

The fact is, the children can handle it better than the adults can.  They are way more flexible. Children to them are just a tool for their cause.  Just like Palin uses them.  Of course Palin was finished with Levi so she tossed him under the bus.  These morons are no different.

---

by: Wes @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:28:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maggie

got way too much airtime.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:23:28 PM CDT

True.

Too bad it can't be a free for all rather than a controlled back and forth.  That way, he could say "SHUT UP" you already had your chance.

---

by: Wes @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:25:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I would rather

they give the moderator mute buttons for just such occasions.  If one talks out of turn, simply mute the audio coming in on their side and let the audience see them TRY to outshout the person whose turn it is to talk.  Or even don't wait for an outburst; simply switch the audio from one to another as the conversation is moderated.

---

by: Rae @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 23:55:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Or even better...

I'd like to see a debate where each side has a "fact check" button.  When the other side spouts bullshit, the button is pressed to interrupt them -- after which the presser has a chance to provide evidence that the bullshit was, in fact, bullshit.  A bullshitter who gets caught forfeits the rest of their time; an unsupported claim of bullshitting forfeits the accuser's time.

---

by: M @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 00:28:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Agreed.

It seams that every time a representative from the LGBT community goes on MSNBC to debate with a fundy, we get short-shifted in our chance to say our point of view.

---

by: Robyn @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:37:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Long-shifted

Yes, but the fundies get a really long leash ... with which to tie a noose and hang themselves.  When the moderator (whoever that was standing in for Chris Matthews) is clearly on the side of the LGBT person, it sort of makes sense for the fundie to get a little more air-time.

I would hope that if the Maggie & Joe show went to Fox News, Joe would get a little more airtime.  I doubt it, but it would be fair.

Had I been in Joe's shoes, I would have said, "Yes, this represents a fundamental shift in our culture.  But it's a shift away from bigotry and a shift towards equality and I personally celebrate that shift."  Because everything Maggie said was true; the only thing I disagree with is that she said it like it's a bad thing ... and it's not.  It's a good thing ... for EVERYBODY.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

---

by: red7eric @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:21:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Having never watched

her in a TV interview before, it was a remarkable event. WOW, she is indeed a piece of work.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 05:21:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe

his mother told him "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

Or maybe he's got someone reading this place and others like it, and realized that the tepid response he'd be willing to offer would be rejected.

Or maybe the intern who obviously issued that last response has since been reprimanded and doesn't dare do anything else.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

---

by: QueerInSoCal @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:28:09 PM CDT

My mom told me the same thing,

  But fuck that, Maggie Gallagher is nothing but a big mouth on a big body, An Orca. Repeats the same thing over and over and none of it is true.

 I just wish Joe S. was on top of his game when it comes to confronting these bible beating liars.  

 Mrs. Orca, why did they lose their tax exemption?  Answer, The Government can't fund Bigotry.

 See Joe, you need to be on your game.  Politely ask the host to turn her mic off so you can represent your side of the argument.  Just because she out weighs you 10 to 1 and can out shout you by 200 db, you don't have to let her try to take your time on the show away.  Maybe next time, bring a mullet, hold it up to distract her.  You will make two points.  1) she can keep quiet. 2) you can talk and make your point.

PS.  If the Mullet doesn't work, try some herring.  

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:43:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Joe's game

is appeasement, accommodation, and assimilation.  That pretty much precludes exposing these people for the pigs they are.  Given the constraints placed on him by the very nature of his organization, hr didn't do too badly.  But you're right, he needs to stop being so damn polite to people who don't deserve anything of the kind.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

---

by: QScribe @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 21:36:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There's plenty that's repellent about Maggie Gallagher:

her personality, her politics. Do we have to resort to attacks on her size?

---

by: one jewish dyke @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 22:11:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's another aspect of her hypocrisy.

Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins.

Fetch my pearls, I need to clutch them!

---

by: RainbowPhoenix @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 22:26:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I will leave her size alone,

  when she stops lying.  Her size I can prove.  I am quite tired of these mother fuckers call me and my LGBT friends child molesters and rapists.

 And the truth be told, my mom who herself is over weight let that lose in her bedroom.  I did add the Orca though.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 23:02:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm With Ya, HappyCat

Especially when gluttony is a deadly sin.

I'm not being smarmy and saying overweight people are going to hell, but I'm not going to be told I'm going to hell, or my sin is worse than theirs, especially when it's coming from a smarmy cow like Maggie.

---

by: bluegrassfool @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 00:28:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This

is about the fifth time in the last two days I've read a slam at someone's weight tacked onto whatever other slams were being issued in threads on this site.

Folks.  Seriously.  

Keep in mind that some of your audience might not be as svelte as you yourself might be.  Try not to slap us in the face as you try to impress us with your words.  For myself, when I read this sort of snarking it automatically diminishes the worth of whatever else a poster has to say.

---

by: Rae @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 00:06:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm over 200 lbs

myself and only 5'4". This is not where I want to be, but it is my current reality and has been for quite awhile.

It could EASILY be said that I've got a big body and bog mouth, too!

Maggie's physical appearence did not offend me at all. The twisted, tired, ignorant, harmful and hateful words coming out her mouth did.

Just my opinion on this one. ;)

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 05:26:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

talking about size...

Did anyone notice that the blogmistress isn't exactly a size 0? It makes me wonder what all the fatblaster commenters think of me. Last time I checked, the size clothes I wear has nothing to do with my intelligence. It may affect whether I'm telegenic enough to any given network (obviously not MSNBC, since they let blowhard Gallagher on to spew her bile), but just remember if she's an Orca, then what am I?

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 06:03:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

An apology is do.

  I was completely wrong on the attack of her weight.  Her lack of intelligence and her politics is the fair game that should be the issue.   To those here I have offended I am sorry.

 Please accept my apology as I had no intentions of offending anyone here at Pam's House Blend.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 06:24:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

We love you, HappyCat

Yes, Maggie Gallagher is an evil person. She's a particularly stupid, sluggish sort of evil that can't be bothered to be innovative. Let's judge her by her hate, and not by her body.

Those of us in the feminist-progressive community fight misogyny in all its forms, and one of the main forms of misogyny is body-shaming. Women are never physically good enough, never thin or pretty or perfect enough. This is particularly true for women who are considered overweight. Fat-shaming is something men routinely do when they are confronted with a woman who is smarter and better than they are, and who is not intimidated by the power of Teh Almighty Dudeliness. Misogynists can't win on the merits, so in the end, they resort to, "Oh yeah? Well you're a fat ugly sow, Fatty McFatfat!" It's a particularly vicious type of bullying that starts in early childhood.

Homophobia and transphobia arise from misogyny because LGBT people break the gender role norms. Fat-shaming arises from misogyny because women who are overweight and not grovelingly apologetic about it are breaking the rule of "always look good for a man" and "your worth is determined by your body."

We who stand up for the right of ALL people to be judged on the content of their character, rather than their appearance or on immutable characteristics, must not fat shame. It's perpetuating more ugly misogyny. And we are better than that.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 12:35:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Agreed,

  That is why I issued an apology.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 13:37:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, love, I know

'Tis appreciated. I'm just clarifying the issue for people who may not understand or frequent Shakesville, where we deal with it a LOT. No animosity targeted at you. I'm sorry if it came off that way.

((((((((((((((((HappyCat))))))))))))))))

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 14:04:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The White House should have said

no comment on a state issue when the Iowa decision was handed down, just to be consistent.

Actually, Barnacle did a better job refuting Gallagher's nonsense than Joe did by asking, "How is this going to affect my marriage?"

---

by: kevinchi @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:33:39 PM CDT

joe had the right points

But he was steamrolled by Gallagher. Barnicle didn't moderate well (but as you said, scored points of his own).

She was using the command and control model of engagement and that always intimidates all but the most-seasoned hosts and guests.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 20:42:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have to disagree

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part but I think Gallagher didn't do so well. Joe got some points down, was able to get the end the lies website out there and got Gallagher to admit some points, especially about Ocean Grove.

Gallagher came across as argumentative.  But I do wish Joe would have pointed out Gallagher's interruptions to the tune of "see this is why this issue is so polarising. Because folks like Ms. Gallagher can't debate it without getting loud and interrupting people. They won't let anyone else get a word in edgewise. Just like she is doing now, she and others like her don't want gays to get a words in edgewise when it comes to families."

But all in all, Joe did pretty well.  

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 21:00:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, actually,

  Maggie got the last word in, and if you listen to it carefully, she makes a complete ass of herself.

 Joe was to busy laughing to get a final word in.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 21:07:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

the message vs. the delivery

Joe had all the right points, but this is the problem with this debate format. It's who wins the confrontation, not who has the better argument. For better or worse, unless Joe or Barnicle controls Gallagher, she comes out as the "winner" to the average under informed viewer who reacts to the medium.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 21:28:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If this was the only debate they watched,

then yes.  But this has been on every program so far that I have watched, and it began yesterday.  And every right winger so far came off as loud and obnoxious.  

I agree, there needs to be an open and honest debate and these loud mouths have to have a fish stuffed in their mouth to shut them up.

But then again the under informed viewer would be watching FOX NEWS.  

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 22:00:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dan Savage

Granted I have issues with Dan, he can defuse a harpy like Gallagher as well as anyone. The danger with Dan is when he does so, he comes off like a bit of a  bully himself, so in this case, it would be an even match.

Although Barnacle might totally lose it in that case.

---

by: kevinchi @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 21:11:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mike Rogers

Would have destroyed her. He's collegial and disarms the bullsh*tter on the other side.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 21:30:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am just a little soldier,

 and would have debunked her garbage.  But yes, Mike Rogers would have done a much better job.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 23:07:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Go For It, HappyCat!

Until we gets some reps who AREN'T more concerned about looking cute on TV, we're fucked.  We need some average Joe's with a forked tongue to take these creeps on.

---

by: bluegrassfool @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 12:35:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

**raises hand**

Me! Me! I wanna do it!!

My mother always told me I had tongue made of concertina wire, but I look so sweet and cute and innocent that when I slice people up, they're so shocked they can't respond! I wanna go bitchslap Maggie!

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 12:38:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have asked Peter Lebarbera,

 Matt Bam-Bam Barber, and a whole bunch of others to a debate.  I have offered to appear on Dr. Phil, Oprah, when discussing LGBT issues.

My oldest daughter wants appear with me.  She wants to challenge The Peter, etc. to tell her that I am a rapist or child molester or just a child abuser.

I would love to be able to go one on one with any of them in a debate about LGBT issues.  I would love the opportunity to expose all their lies about losing their religious freedom over hate crimes laws, ENDA, and Same-Sex Marriage.

If I did get the chance, I would also bring a pair of my worn out toe socks.  And when they start shouting over me, I would pull them out, hold them in my right hand and point at them with my index finger on my right hand.  Hoping they would get the message, Put a sock in it, this is my turn to talk.  That is just the way I am.  I treat people with respect until I am given a reason not to.  The same goes with my trust.  I believe everyone should be trusted until proven otherwise.

Oh, and Bitch slapping Maggie, There is a lloooooonnnnnnggggggggg line, but if you are behind me, I would gladly switch places in line;)  

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 13:27:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey now, we can be side by side!

I can bitchslap Maggie with one hand while holding your hand with the other. How's about it? Tandem Bitchslap Powers Activate!

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 14:07:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sounds good to me,

 but my oldest daughter wants to know, Can we use the heavy cast iron frying pan?

{{{{{{{{Keori}}}}}}}}

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 15:03:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hoitie Toitie Types

I'll take both of you over Solmonese ANY DAY!

I'm sorry, but our reps come across to the uninformed/uneducated as "hoitie toitie" types - looking cute, dressing expensive, and directly or indirectly promoting the idea that all gays have super-disposable incomes.  

If I were a straight person, why the fuck would I want to give you queers anything more than you already have?  Whether you win or lose your marriage battle, you're going to go home to your mansion for filet mignon and Dom Pérignon, anyway! LOL

I'll take a Dan and Roseanne Connor type to represent me over some prettyboy.

---

by: bluegrassfool @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 15:14:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ooooo! I think Barack's in trouble with the Almighty.

God--you know, the guy who's in the mix--doesn't want his children refusing to comment on "moral issues."  

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

---

by: QScribe @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 21:40:51 PM CDT

FYI: JHooper made a response video.

youtube.com/watch?v=7YGe8DwBs-s

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

---

by: Orion45 @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 21:46:35 PM CDT

Here it is

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 22:02:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Exceptions to rules

There are very few things that can make Joe Solmonese look good - but being on the opposite side of the screen from Maggie Gag-a-bear is one of them.  She is one of the most thoroughly unpleasant and obnoxious (and I won't even mention truth-challenged) chunks of media presence imaginable.  Compared to her, Andrea Dworkin was Britney Spears ca. 1998.

>^..^<

---

by: KatRose @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 22:54:48 PM CDT

Marriage Equality Chart

Maybe a bit off topic, but is there a concise chart that shows the "more than 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon heterosexual married couples", whether those rights are possible through other means, and how they stack up against the various Civil Unions and Domestic Partnerships available in some states? It seems like such a no-brainer to have a chart to illustrate to the others EXACTLY what it is they get that we don't. I've spent a non-trivial amount of time Googling and don't seem to find anything...

---

by: bazaarsoft @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 23:28:17 PM CDT

Check different LGBT organizations' web sites

like Freedom to Marry.  With 50 states that would be a massive amount of work to compile a complete list.

Here's a 2004 GAO update on federal statutory provisions: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d...

---

by: Pollyanna @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 00:28:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What it boils down to is...

If the government issues us same sex couples marriage licences, it might be more difficult for fundamentalists to discriminate against us. So therefore, Maggie Gallagher wants to deny my family the same legal protections that her family has.

---

by: JonathanU @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 23:31:37 PM CDT

Here is a good video defending Marriage Equality,

Why Does The National Organization For Marriage Want To Deny Marriage Rights For Gays?

 When the debate is clear, the Anti-Gay Bigots make no sense at all.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Wed Apr 08, 2009 at 23:37:15 PM CDT

if we had a transcript...

The video could be frontpaged -- then it would be able to go viral. It's a great take-down of Brian Brown that needs to circulate.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 06:37:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It seems pretty clear why they trot Maggie out more often than Brian.

She's no great shakes, but he loses it even worse.  Unless he's improved on his self-control since this recording was made, he's the NOM rep we should try to engage with in public.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 16:26:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Damn, Thom is Gooood!

---

by: fq5757 @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 14:25:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Maggie Gallagher Says:

"MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO".

---

by: bluegrassfool @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 00:24:36 AM CDT

I've had it with this crap

Maggie Gallagher's problem is not that she is overweight.  It's that she is a right-wing extremist who lies as a means by which to deny people their civil liberties.

Anyone who wants to attack her for that, go right ahead.  I'm right there with you.

But if you think that the proper way to attack her is for her weight, and I will speak slowly here so as to be perfectly clear:

 You

 Are

 An

 Idiot.

I'm only a click away.

---

by: JulieWaters @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 04:55:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with you Julie

People, some of us need to stop playing and rationalizing our nonsense. You see this is how the other side wins when sometimes when we get distracted by our "anger" and stoop to the lowest common denominator.

I could care less about Gallagher's weight. But it's her words and lies that are the problem. There is no excuse for attacking her personal appearance. And to try and rationalize it is even worse.

Sometimes I wonder if some folks on our side can show some discipline. It's what the other side has and it's what we need.

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 06:16:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not Making Fun Of Her Weight

I'm flat-out saying the bitch is a glutton, one of the 7 deadly sins - and she needs to carry her moo-cow ass back to her own porch, before trying to sweep mine.

---

by: bluegrassfool @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 12:30:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I Love that Maggie Calls Joe a Liar...

then procedes to lie herself. That New Jersey Methodist group still does enjoy tax-exempt status on its beach and boardwalk. The New York Times reported that they retained tax-exempt status on the beach property and the boardwalk. Only the pavilion itself lost the status.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09...

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag

---

by: TheAngryFag @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 06:42:41 AM CDT

And then! And then!

... she turns around and says, "Don't call people a liar when they disagree with you, Joe; it's unkind."

Hoo boy ... the irony, the irony.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

---

by: red7eric @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:29:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is it about Maggie?

I hear that Maggie shouts and screams and lies and is bitter because her kaslopis has now dried up and is sagging now. Any confirmation folks?

---

by: texaspigeon @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 07:53:48 AM CDT

Food for thought

I believe the majority of comments about the weight issue - dealt with how ironic it is that someone who feels it is alright to point out the "sins" of someone else (or group) --  when they themselves are dealing with their own "sin issue".
I believe the Bible speaks to this "irony" specifically.
Paraphrased since I am not a biblical scholar....
"Remove the plank from your own eye, before removing the speck in someone else's eye"
Regardless, whether one "deserves" to be "called out" on a physical attribute or not.
The issue remains... holding others up to a "higher standard" means the one doing the "holding" should be at or better than that standard.

---

by: KJS @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 10:33:37 AM CDT

We watched last night and all Maggie did was lie.

I saw her in Boston last year at a "profamily" event and she tries to come off unassuming.  Everything she spouted last night was false.  The decision by Catholic Charities in Massachusetts to stop all adoptions had nothing to do with the marriage issue.  It shows that she has no idea what she was talking about.

Mike B. is from Mass so I'm surprised he didn't go after her more with her illogic.  

---

by: BB @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 10:55:09 AM CDT

Mean Maggie

keep it comin girl you do nothing but good for what is just and right with your me me me, but if gays can marry then we heteros won't be special anymore.

---

by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 11:17:52 AM CDT

Wel l......

I wouldn't characterize that as a debate. I was a replay of the last time Joe and Maggie shared a split screen. Maggie speaks, Joe listens patiently and listens some more. Joe's turn, says three uninterrupted words before Maggie talks all over him. She gets the first word, the last comment and talks over much of Joe's comments. Then she asks Joe a question and he looks stumped. We can do better

Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles, and see that the world is moving."
-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

---

by: T2inDC @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 13:27:15 PM CDT