True believers are angry at Rick Warren's 'betrayal' on Larry King Live

Warren will still be laughing all the way to the bank

The folks on the left know he's a liar, telling different things to different crowds. The folks on the right find a different reason for expressing their outrage, but the outrage is still about a basically similar issue.

Meanwhile, most in the middle are still going to buy the Warren PR and sending him cash.

Warren's playing to his bottom line, and so far that strategy is working for him.

(But we still know his 'empire' runs on lies.)

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by: the.sue @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 08:51:54 AM CDT

The Middle?

I don't have a whole lot of data to back this up, but I'm starting to wonder if "the middle" looks a little different than it did even five years ago.

Seems to me that "the middle" grows less and less comfortable with the idea of "mega-pastor" and "mega-church," with each passing day.  As the older generation dies off and the younger generation moves out of the house and starts making their own way, I expect this to continue.

Or maybe I'm just a cock-eyed optimist.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:04:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm not sure...

Kind of going by instinct on my post. I'm viewing the middle as a large clump that is not particularly well informed, and cares more about latching on to a trend (e.g., the "purpose driven" dribble of Warren) than actually developing their own beliefs. I'm not sure this is just older people. A lot of young people make good recruits for this kind of dogma because they tend to buy it (literally and figuratively) with no questions asked.

I'd separate that from the really active Xtian right that wants to revert things as close to the stone age as possible when it comes to regulating the lives of others.

When it comes to younger people, regardless of how they identify on the political scale, they don't have the same fear of the homo that the older folks have. That's a reason why pushing this issue now is so important to the control crowd.

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by: the.sue @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:18:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Going on Instinct myself ...

... but something tells me that "the middle" must be increasingly turned off by anti-gay moralizing, or else the Rickster would not have felt the need to backpedal his opposition to gay marriage on Larry King.  Seems to me that "mega-pastors" of yore were awfully proud of their bigotry, and saw no need to hide it in order to appeal to the masses.  If that's changing ... good.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:38:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

They probably are "turned off"...

When people's energies are going to keeping their jobs, their homes, and their retirement money, I think they're less likely to expend energy being concerned about what Frank and Steve or Martha and Jane are doing down the street or in another state.

These TV preachers got the marketing thing down. They've figured out how to bring in the cash. I'm not surprised that some (like Warren) are working the trends.

And in case it sounds like I'm supporting Warren...I'm not. I'm trying to understand his personal use of sleaze...but that doesn't mean I support his efforts or the lies he tells to keep himself in the cash.

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by: the.sue @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:53:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Young people are being turned off by the religionists,

  Sure they make bible school fun for 7 year olds, drawing with crayons and such.  But the religionists start forcing their garbage on them with a lot of pressure.  

 But the religionist garbage is not what is hip in school.  And parents like me are no going to let any kind of religion garbage influence our sons and daughters.  If you get the chance, look at what teens are floating around MySpace pages.  If you remember not even a year ago, the christianists where spreading all sorts of fear about MySpace.  Parents would ask their children what they were doing, we see and find out all that crap was a bunch of lies as well.

 Kids today are very tech savoy, the christianists aren't.  They lie about what they don't understand or don't want to understand.  Today's kids see the christians for the liars they are.

 The whole nation is seeing the republicans for the liars and criminals they are, kids included.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 22:54:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is the most important social issue?

"There is no social issue that is more defining for biblical Christians than that of marriage and life."

Really?! It seems to me the Bible is more concerned with helping the poor and less fortunate than anything else. There doesn't seem to be much outrage over the ~12 percent of US citizens who live in poverty though.

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by: fsamuels @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:00:09 AM CDT

The poor?

They're lazy and deserve it. They didn't say the right prayers for money. Aren't you keeping up? (snark off.)

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by: the.sue @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:03:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks, fsamuels -- I was thinking the same thing

Have these people actually read the Bible and studied its context?  I think they just sit in church on Sunday and wait for the pastor to spoon-feed them his (almost always his) interpretation, which is then spun as the "inerrant" word of God.

"If the apocalypse comes... beep me." -- Buffy Summers

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by: Kathy @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:09:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I wonder if Warren plans on running for office...

Warren's comments shows he sure learned a lot from Obama while reading his tarot cards and performing other services as his spirit advisor.

Obama's a past master of the arts of lying, dissembling and telling everyone what they want to hear.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

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by: donal1944 @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 09:31:13 AM CDT

His shifts in position suggest politics

Perhaps a V for Vendetta style high chancellor

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 13:15:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

As I recall...

...most of Warren's PR came from the woman who was held hostage in Atlanta by the bank robber(?) [Bear w/me, my details are a little sketchy] who read to him from "Purpose-Driven Life" and he let her go.

I wonder what happened to the guy... if he's turned around from Warren's words?  What happened to the woman?  Is she our next mega-preacher?

What's mostly awry from Warren's LK appearance is that he did, as has been said, "backpedal" on the issue and just spew forth an outright lie.  Christianists do not have the physical or spiritual ability to say, "I was wrong," lying is their only option.

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by: GraciesDaddy @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 10:44:48 AM CDT

The woman in Atlanta

I read her ghost-written story, published maybe six months after the incident.  She actually was an addict, and her husband had been killed in a drug deal gone wrong (IIRC).  She then lost custody of her daughter due to her addiction, so she had started going to church with relatives in order to clean her life up and regain custody of her daughter.  Part of the reason why the Atlanta court killer guy responded to her was because she shared a lot of her life story and he could relate to her.

According to the book, she was still clean at the time of publication.  I was disappointed that the book didn't tell what happened to the guy.

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by: Daughter @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 23:04:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Social Outrage

It's good to see that there is some social outrage about evangelicals (he's NOT a fundamentalist) and their worldview on how they should get people into the "kingdom."

What really makes my blood boil is that Larry like other journalists never ask these people the right questions.  I have asked Larry about this on two separate occasions.

If people like Larry King and other journalists would simply ask the right questions, the answers would cause a social outrage which just might change the way the majority of non believers view these people.

They should be asking questions like, "Rick, do you believe the Bible says that Jews are going to Hell."  and  "Do you believe that there is only one way to get to Heaven?"  "Do you believe that all sickness is the result of sin?" (This is the part where they have to admit that they believe HIV/AIDS like other illnesses is a result of sin.)

But as usual, the "liberal" media doesn't do its job.

The battle of words over "real" christians vs. other versions of christianity is really a mute point since there are so many different versions of christianity.  Besides, being gay has nothing to do with religion or religious beliefs anyway and the more we pander and slow dance with the religious right, the more valid they appear to those who believe like they do or who are susceptible to believing like they do.

I was a fundamentalist and believe me, Rick Warren is no fundamentalist.  He's a neo-evangelical who believes that by wearing a coat made up of his definition of the word 'love' he can bring people in the "kingdom."  And that makes him much scarier and dangerous than any fundamentalist.

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by: MarcAdams @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 13:39:50 PM CDT

Journalist?

I'm not sure I classify Larry as a journalist.  Larry King Live isn't journalism so much as a talk show.  Yes, it's on CNN, and yes, there's that journalisticky backdrop depicting some sort of world map a la Lite-Brite (remember that toy?) ... but Larry King is a talk show host, pure and simple.

And yet, even Oprah would have said, "But Rick ... what about this video you made last fall ... ?"

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 16:26:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Rick Warren on both sides

Rick Warren is speaking from both sides...of his mouth.  He wants to talk to his base on his anti-gay sentiments, then avoid the attacks by tempering his rhetoric when in earshot of the general public.
What always amazes me is how the fundamentalists and right wing profess the sanctity of marriage in one breath, then ignore how they have accepted divorce as a remedy to all their mistakes.  Meanwhile, they quote the bible, while ignoring the "social adjustments" they have made to make their statistics and arguement hold holy water.
The real statistics show that 50% of marriages end in divorce, 40% of births are out of wedlock and pedophelia is not a gay disease.  Society is changing and the natural evolution of social norms will prove out the facts that same sex marriage will benefit everyone, except those hiding the facts.

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by: paper_tiger @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 15:57:01 PM CDT

Two faces have I

"Both sides of his mouth" - precisely!

I had the misfortune to flip past Hugh Hewitt the other day as he was interviewing Warren.  Apparently, Warren, when asked recently about his feelings on legalizing same-sex marriage (maybe it was on this same Larry King appearance?), had responded that he didn't support it "any more than I support legalizing bestiality or incest".

Of course, the reality-based community quickly called out Warren's statement for the bigotry it is - so on Hewitt's show, Warren spent the better part of 15 minutes attempting to deny that he had equated homosexuality with bestiality or incest.  Never mind that, given the context (offering reasons for his position on legislation), this is precisely what he did.

There are a lot of fence-sitters out there who buy anti-SSM "logic" only because of the dissembling, waffling presentation employed by jackasses like Rick Warren to camouflage the bigotry at its core.  At least own up to it, Rick, so everyone can know exactly where you stand... and judge you accordingly.

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by: CubPaws2008 @ Fri Apr 10, 2009 at 21:44:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

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by: 25_Mil @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 16:09:47 PM CDT

Bryan Fischer & RIck Warren

I was sent to your website by a friend of mine. I lived in Idaho from 1999-2006, where Mr. Fischer was a constant political opponent. He is a menace - who successfully rallied national money into Idaho to constitutionally ban gay marriage. It's the only thing his organization has ever "accomplished" - that and getting slapped with court damages for trying to get the City of Boise to erect the ten commandments in a public park. His website - idahovaluesalliancedotcom - is a daily source of amusement. Today he was saying "There is an unbroken link that connects Darwin to Hitler. Historian Arthur Keith says if we put ourselves in Germany in 1942 we can see a Hitler who is "devoutly convinced that evolution provides the only real basis for a national policy ... he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution."

I was particularly amused by how fast he went piranha on Rick Warren. The difference between Rick Warren and Bryan Fischer is that nobody outside of Idaho cares what he thinks. Rick Warren is a polished media hog. Fischer is a far right wing nutjob who gets mostly laughed at in his local press in Idaho. His positions on everything from evolution to global warming are just plain laughable.
(and his organization is not in any way affiliated with American Family Association)

It's a crazy time - when ideologues get backed into a corner - there is nothing scarier. I think this topic in politics and spiritual circles is about to take on an entirely new level of nasty and mean.

Just one example is the video by the National Organization of Marriage video that came out yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

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by: Robert_McDiarmid @ Thu Apr 09, 2009 at 20:28:52 PM CDT