What Horizontal Violence Looks Like In Community

Wow...

I'm really shocked and dismayed by the hate of some trans people for other trans people - I don't understand it at all.  I remember mentioning on this board I had the money for gender reassignment surgery and Phyllisms called me a joke and said I'd never do it.  Well I did and the joke's on her.  She, like the people you mention seemed to think they were somehow in a position to psychoanalyze people they don't even know and sum up who they are as people.  Arrogant and absurd, I wonder what on earth is going on in such people's minds - how out of touch with reality can you be.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:17:47 PM CDT

No offense, Priya

I have no idea where to find the thread you are referencing, as you probably know, Phyllis_Ms got banned and can't respond to you herself. What you probably don't know, because its not general knowledge, is that since that time Phyllis and I have gotten married, so that is my wife you are talking about (and yes, we did meet here--which is a whole other story). I know she can get a bit strident, but I have NEVER, EVER, heard her call someone else "a joke"--did I miss something? I am sure that she will be happy for you that you got your SRS (assuming that you don't mind if I tell her about your post). Phyllis doesn't hate anybody, perhaps there was a misunderstanding?

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 14:42:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Susan, you don't know her as well as you think you do.

She most certainly did refer to me as a joke and said there was no way I'd every go through with the surgery.  Rather bizzare behavior on her part given that she knew nothing about me.  And that was only the beginning of it.  I haven't been attacked in such a horrendous manner even by the majority of anti-gay religionists.  Apparently her hostility was due to the fact that I stated I was transgendered - it seems in her mind no one who refers to themselves as trans gets gender reassignment surgery.  I'd prefer you don't tell her about my post.  I've had more than my fill of hostility from Phyllis.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:01:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Are you kidding???

This is my wife you are talking about! How could you possibly presume to know that I don't know her as well as I think I do??? I sometimes disagree with her posts (or at least the way she phrased things), I will grant you that, but how can you presume to know my wife better than I do??? Good grief!

And I still cannot find the posts that you are referencing. If you would not mind pointing me to the right threads, I would like to see for myself what she posted to you that got you so upset--she truly does not remember ever saying such a thing to you here on the Blend or anywhere else. I do, however, remember your e-mail exchange very well. In fact, I advised her not to reply to you, but she was hoping to open a dialogue. I disagree with some of what she said to you, however her intent genuinely was to open up a dialogue, not to start a flame war.

As to not telling her about your post--its too late. She found it by herself. She still reads the Blend almost daily, even though she no longer posts.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:50:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, and by the way...

It took me a few minutes to figure out who you are--now that I put it together: When you and Phyllis exchanged e-mails in January, YOU were the one mean-spirited enough to call my wife an "insane b*tch" and then say, "You'll always be a man.  Unlike me who wanted to be a woman bad enough to make it happen its you who will never have the sex change.  You don't want it bad enough to make it happen.  That's why at 57 you're still a man consumed with anger and hate." You are not only mean-spirited, but you knew damn well that the only reason she had postponed her surgery was because she had to take care of her 80 year old mother who had a medical emergency.

Then you have the nerve to say,"She [Phyllis], like the people you mention seemed to think they were somehow in a position to psychoanalyze people they don't even know and sum up who they are as people," in your post. Excuse me? Who is the one psychoanalyzing people they don't even know???

So how is that hypocrisy thing working out for you?

I mean, seriously, the utter and complete hypocrisy of saying something so vicious by e-mail then representing yourself to be the "victim" in a public forum is truly astounding.

Nice of you to use someone you know can't be here to defend herself as an example. My wife is very much a woman and you know it; you were only trying to be hurtful and you are no better than the woman Autumn referenced in her post.

Now how about building some bridges, instead of burning them?  

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:20:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, I didn't "know damn well"

Actually I had no idea why she hadn't had the surgery. Yes, I gave her the exact same blast back that she gave me.  I have no regrets.  She insisted I'd never have the operation and that I was a man so I gave her back her own vitriol.  She first attacked me in much the same way, in fact a much worse way, than that woman attacked Autumn.  If Phyllis expects any different than what she dishes out she's in for a rude surprise.  I have no interest in building bridges to anyone who declared war on me without being provoked.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:42:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

and by the way

I didn't exchange emails with Phyllis, I sent her my email and blocked her address so any hostile response she made wasn't seen by me.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:44:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Appologies about the time-line

I see now that you sent an angry e-mail to Phyllis, then I guess you did not read the response in which she explained that her mother was ill.

I apologize profusely for my error on that point. However, the rest of what I said stands.

For the record, she congratulated you on your surgery in her reply. I honestly don't understand why you would e-mail someone like that out of the blue then block their response.

I guess you did not want to open up a dialogue, just hurl vicious insults at someone that you do not allow to reply. Funny how that is just like what you are doing today--but on an open blog that is read by thousands of people a day.  

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:02:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

As far as Phyllis's original post to me goes...

I looked for it back in January and couldn't find it myself.  At that time I was posting under the name Randi Schimnosky.  It was a very long thread and the most hostile one I'd ever seen on the blend especially given that it was trans people attacking trans people.  Apparently some trans people were deeply offended at being referred to as transgendered and were attacking those of us who use the term as "not real women".  The thread was about a year ago and was eventually closed to comments given the growing hostility on it.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:03:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Susan said...

"I guess you did not want to open up a dialogue, just hurl vicious insults at someone that you do not allow to reply.".

You got that right.  I wanted to hurl vicious insults at someone who first viciously insulted me.  What goes around comes around.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:07:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Susan said...

"Funny how that is just like what you are doing today".  I challenge you to show where I've "hurled vicious insults" today.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:24:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Read your own original post

You said,

She, like the people you mention seemed to think they were somehow in a position to psychoanalyze people they don't even know and sum up who they are as people.  Arrogant and absurd, I wonder what on earth is going on in such people's minds - how out of touch with reality can you be.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:28:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

statements of fact

That's far from a "vicious insult" Susan.  There's a reason why Phyllis got banned, and it wasn't her sunny disposition.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:34:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Then why don't you try opening a dialogue??

It would be more productive. If Phyllis did say something inappropriate, it was a long time ago. Phyllis has not posted here since last summer, yet your angry e-mail was in January and you are dragging her into thread today.
Did it ever occur to you that Phyllis honestly does not recall saying the things you think she said? She might very well apologize if she said something out of line, but she can't find the posts, either.

Honestly, I am trying to remain neutral between the waring factions of the trans communities(s), I just wish both sides would be nicer to each other--especially on open blogs where those who would stand against equal rights and hate-crime protections that include "gender identity and expression" can copy and re-post them out of context to make us (those who support equal rights) look bad.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:43:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dialogue with Phyllis?

Not interested Susan, she hurt me when she didn't even know me and that was clearly her intent.  I'm not clear why, it seems solely because I think the phrase transgender applies to me and all transexuals and apparently that means war to Phyllis.  I'm not giving her another chance to attack me. We're even now as far as I'm concerned.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:52:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wow! What a coincidence!

My posts are getting rated "0" and "1' by someone who created their account at PHB just in time to rate me!

I am flattered that they went to the trouble to tank the rating scores of someone who is merely standing up for her spouse, who is not able to defend herself in person.

Autumn--I am sorry for the long sub-thread, but I cannot allow unfair statements about my wife to stand. I disagree with some of the things that Phyllis said here on PHB and I know she did sometimes get upset and phrase things poorly, but it is totally unfair of Priya to have dragged her into this, when she cannot respond for herself. And I honestly cannot find the posts that Priya is referring to. Again, I ask where these comments in which Priya says Phyllis attacked her are? Were they deleted or something?

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:25:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Unfair statements

I agree that when I sent Phyllis that email I gave her unfair for the unfair she gave me.  However there was nothing unfair about what I've said here today.

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by: Priya Lynn @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:37:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I give up.

People can read what you said and decide for themselves what they think.

If you want to open up a dialogue with Phyllis and try to heal some old wounds, you have her e-mail address.

I do not want to hijack this thread.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:46:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ugly?

Hang in there, Autumn.

Transgender issues are not top of my personal priorities. I too struggle with images of male - looking women, and female - looking men. Sometimes I would prefer to avoid dealing with gender issues.  But what is completely important to me, is honesty.  That you do.

Your respondent makes wild, totally unsubstantiated statements about your background and motivation.  Ignore them (and also her peculiar grammar and syntax - they are as irrelevant as her 'arguments').

Stick with our own truth.  Only there, is there salvation.

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by: riverrun @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:25:15 PM CDT

Thanks Autumn

I'm too exhausted right now to write much, but I just wanted to offer my support and appreciation for you and all that you do. I'm not trans myself but do my best to be a good friend and ally to transfolks. I have learned a lot from you. I'm sorry for the attacks that you are enduring. Remember that you do have friends who've got your back.

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by: DubNotDubya @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:34:40 PM CDT

Ugh...

Those comments are so completely mean-spirited and hurtful, but sadly I've seen it so often among trans women. I'm sorry you had to put up with that, it is BS.

I could go on for hours (or pages) about the many social and medical pressures that I think lead to this kind of behaviour in trans circles, but you know all that. My own experience of having gone through the gender clinic route and transitioning young tagged me as a 'successful' trans woman under the HBSOC model, but when I came out as a dyke and began queering my gender the backlash I got from trans women (many who now would probably ID with HBS or trans classic) was pretty horrible. There was such an investment in my identity, and the threat my identity brought to their identity... actually, it reminds me a lot of religious fundies, come to think of it.

Anyway, for me it just galvanized my resolve. I'm nerdy, weird, andro, queer, dyke, trans, sometimes I make sense in the M/F model, sometimes I don't... but really, the only investment I have in my identity is for me and my happiness. It makes me sad the essentialists spend so much time obsessing about other people.

It's good to be discussing this, as I think there's a lot to be discussed and called out about this kind of horizontal violence. It still is crap you had to deal with that sort of attacking language. None of us need to live up to anyone else's standards, and those who would police the identities of others have issues with themselves.

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by: aleisha @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:35:44 PM CDT

It's tough at the bottom

At the top, in the majority or at least the plurality, one can feel superior to "everyone not like me".

Near the top, trampled by those of privilege, one can still feel "better than those [idiots|freaks|perverts|sub-humans]".

Near the bottom of the social order, there are fewer people to step on, in a desperate attempt to feel better than someone. The violence has to get horizontal, because there are few targets below.

Unless, of course, one decides it is not necessary to push another down to raise one's self up.

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Claim to fame: Posted first PHB diary to be demoted

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by: cindik @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:37:50 PM CDT

Nasty pieces of work

Autumn;
   I've run into this, disdain for all others who might make them look like "the other."
This was from a diary of mine that touched upon the issue
"They have a sort of trans-mattachinist mindset growing in intesity, 'we are different than the others; we are real women we are heterosexual and the others are fetishists." I disgree with that kind of Queer neo-conservatism and  claims of hyper-normalisation as a kind of political grovellling. I've criticised it in LGB's before. I stand by that ciriticism. I certainly disagree with them trying to springboard to civil rights based upon their stomping upon our rights..."


I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:40:08 PM CDT

Kinda like Alan Keyes, huh?

No matter how much he grovels to the right wing, they are just never going to accept him as one of them and he lashes out because it's our fault that the wingers always reject him and has nothing to do with their own bigotry and racism.

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by: Margaret @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:50:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't need a photo to see how ugly she is

I knew a post op once who had the biggest chip on her shoulder that I have ever seen. This reminded me of her so very much, right down to the winger mispellings. It made me so very happy when she finally realized that I was serious when I told her to go away and stay away from me. Trust me, her venom was just like what you describe but when it sank in that we were not going to be friends after all, she played the part of the hurt, missunderstood martyr. I think that all of that hostility that was built up just sprayed out randomly at everybody around her. I try to think the best of people but that's just not possible with some no matter how "big" you try to be.

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by: Margaret @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:47:53 PM CDT

Even if you really ARE

just a "man with a fetish" (which I don't believe for a second) how does that justify this kind of attack?  I have a few little fetishes of my own, and woe betide the jerk who tries to put me down for them.  

But, seriously, how can anyone suggest that subjecting oneself to all the things trans people live with is "just a fetish"?  That is so clueless on so many levels--even dumber than the suggestion that gay people "choose that lifestyle.".

And finally, I have to ask this:  If you are just a loony guy with a weird hangup, how is it that the people here value you as much as we do?  (And I hope you never doubt that we do.)  How being "a man with a fetish" could lead you to write so passionately, with such feeling and perceptiveness, about issues of human rights is completely beyond me.  But then, all bigotry is beyond me.  I am, as the saying has it, a bear of very little brain.

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken

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by: QScribe @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:49:33 PM CDT

Agree

I completely agree with this comment.  

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by: BrookeHughs @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:29:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sigh..

It's hard enough to deal with life that we shouldn't have to face challenges, discrimination and/or prejudice within our own "family". There seems to be too much of an emphasis by some on the idea of passing perfectly rather than being ourselves.

As human beings we all have paths in life to follow (whatever sets out those paths can be a huge debate on their own) but no path is more "right" than others. Otherwise, we'd all be little clones in a world of greys. I personally like all the colours and variations that make all of us up. If that person is so focused on the shallow items that Hollywood coughs up, then, to me, life is too one-dimensional.

Remember to be the wonderful person you are as defined by you, not by others.

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by: linus @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 13:54:21 PM CDT

Her reference to Gwen...

was, I assume, to Gwen araujo. This is what I wrote on the subject. she could not be more clueless.

  Debra Saunders's column on the verdict in the Gwen Araujo murder trial was fine--and compassionate--as far as it went, but I don't think it went far enough. It still buys into the idea that Eddie "Gwen" Araujo was the only one practicing deception, and that this ultimately led to her brutal murder. What Saunders ignores is that the strong likelihood that the murderers have been, and continue to be, engaged in deception since they met young Gwen--first to fool themselves, then to fool their friends, and finally, to fool the Court.

   The deception is what I call the "M. Butterfly" syndrome."  The play, "M. Butterfly", was based upon the true story of a French diplomat, allegedly heterosexual, who was involved for YEARS with a woman, who later turned out to be both a man and a spy. They even had a child together. The Frenchman claimed that he never knew his paramour was a woman, much less a spy. Curiously--but no surprise-- some years after the events, the man came out as gay, no longer heterosexual.

   The likelihood that the Frenchman's relationship went on for years without the truth being apparent at some point strains credibility. Likewise, so the claims of complete and gullible heterosexuality of Gwen's murderers also strain credibility. It is possible that if she only performed oral sex on them, they were not aware that she was biologically male. I don't really buy that, as she had a life, a history, and a community of which these men were also a part. But it is possible. However, if she had anal sex with them, then it is incredibly unlikely that they failed to notice her biological gender at some point, or at least, had some suspicion. Most people do not have sex fully dressed with no touching or looking.

   I suspect that Gwen's murderers were attracted to her precisely because of tendencies which they would not like to acknowledge, especially to themselves. She was "safe" for them because she at least appeared female. These tendencies are possibly homosexual, or possibly directed towards pre-operative transsexuals; there is a plethora of pornographic websites devoted to just that interest. However, when others found out about Gwen's true gender, histrionic outrage and brutal murder were the perpetrators' only protection against public knowledge and scorn of their personal shame. For many people, a sin is a sin only if it is found out. "We only know what we want to know" is the other side of that coin.

   The greater issue, of course, is our society's absolute obsession with "correct" gender and sexual roles, and the fear, shame, hate, rage and secrecy that obsession engenders. It results in the oppression and diminishment of women and of gay and transgendered people. It causes people to live lies of secrecy and shame, pretending to be what they are not. It tears apart families. It forces some gay people to marry heterosexually, thereby making at least twice as many people unhappy and unfulfilled, all in the service of some unattainable and unrealistic myth of heterosexual hegemony.

   And it causes violence against people whose only fault is that they are different, and who cannot conform to that myth. Poor Gwen was a victim of our society's servitude to that myth. And so, sadly, are the young men, whose lives and families have been ruined, also victims of that myth. How many more victims will we have?

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by: Ben in Oakland @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 14:03:29 PM CDT

OH GOD

Autumn, I am so confused.

What is "Harry Benjamin Syndrome"? I tried looking it up on Wikipedia, which made me even more confused.  The Wikiepedia entry is clearly filled with anti-trans hate. (I removed two mentions of the word "mangina" from the page.)

Can you briefly explain what HPS is?  From what I understand, those who wish to refer to transsexualism as HPS believe that the issue is physiological, rather than psychological.

Okay, but still.  I don't get how that distinction makes them want to demonize other trans people.

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by: shaz4005 @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 14:45:27 PM CDT

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head...

I think you've got a good undertanding of it already, regarding the viewpoint of transsexuality being a neurological intersex condition. But yeah, "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" does connote bigotry for a lot of people. To me, HBS seems to be what happens when a person striving for surgery internalizes the old gender identity clinic view of what makes a person a "true transsexual" versus just another piece of gender trash. In effect, if a trans person doesn't have their life laid out as "get surgery, then blend into the woodwork and live a deep stealth life in a heterosexual relationship", they're considered the other that the HBS crowd demonizes in the hopes of making themselves look more legitimate. Not all HBS proponents are bigots, but the ones that are do tend to drown out everyone else in their community.

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by: megan @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:52:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"...blend into the woodwork and live a deep stealth life..."

That's just what I find so perplexing about HBSers. Why don't they just go off and live their lives as women; leave their history behind them? Why create terminology to separate themselves from other women? Why concern themselves at all with the lives of other trans people?

Tax the Christian Taliban!

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by: Wolfgang @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 17:07:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah that's the irony

For people who make such a big deal that they're now "normal" women who are living "normal" lives, they sure seem to spend a lot of time hanging out in trans and LGBT spaces and obsessing over trans and LGBT people...

FWIW, from what I've seen the HBS bigots are tiny in number -- literally a few dozen at most -- but amazingly loud.

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by: LenaD @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 17:36:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Agree Totally W/LenaD

They seem to be a very vocal but very tiny minority.  The HBS "philosophy" is not gaining traction, and deep down the HBSers themselves don't totally believe it, which makes them even more vituperative.  "Troll" is the operative word here, and the reactions they elicit by virtue of their natural awareness of transpeople's vulnerabilities is their lifeblood.  Better to ignore them, and when they inevitably misbehave, ban them from forums like this.

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by: sonia @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 20:13:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You answered your own question...

Why concern themselves at all with the lives of other trans people?

Now there's your problem right there...

We are not "trans people."  We find being referred to that way to be highly offensive, and so, just as you claim to do, we react to bigotry.

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by: Just Jennifer @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 23:21:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I remember you..

from a really big thread way, way back--may have been 2007 or even 2006. You called me a "transgender fetishist."

My point, in the post above, is, Why are you so concerned with what other people might be calling you? Why do you even visit GLBT websites? Why don't you just go live your life and avoid GLBT spaces altogether? (Since you seem to have no interest in GLBT issues). Why do you come here and tell us that you're a woman of transsexual history and then take offense when someone calls you "trans?"  

Tax the Christian Taliban!

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by: Wolfgang @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 00:19:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can answer with my experience,

  As many here know I went through a very nasty divorce.  My ex-wife and her attorney attacked me using the various definitions that are under the Big Umbrella term Transgender.  The smearing and sliming that came at me was difficult to defend.  From the cross-dressing pervert BS to being a threat to my children was used.  It took my psychologist writing a clear definition of what I was going through.  It was also the reason my psychologist wrote my SRS recommendation letters even though I only had 4 months of RLT.  I went from coming out to my family in March of 2005, began living Full Time in April of 2005 than SRS in October 2005.

 Now I am sure that there are others that have had to go through the same shit I had to, and a lot of time and money could be saved if there was a clearer definition of those who fall under the Big umbrella.

 Those of us who go through transition are not the same as those who dress up for drag shows.  Yet we get labeled the same way.

 For the most part, I live stealth (I hate that term) but at the same time I fight for LGBT civil rights.  I identify myself here as a transsexual as that is what comes the closed term available.  I fight for LGBT rights, because there are people who came out way before I did and began making changes which made it easier for me.  I feel I need to fight for the next generation so they have it easier than I did.  I fight to hopefully prevent the next LGBT person from committing suicide.

 

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 01:55:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

HBS is

Hateful Bull Sh*t

A huge jump back in psychosexual knowledge and theory, the medical and trans equivalent of the Radical Right's desire to return to Pleasantville.

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by: CailleanMcM @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 05:55:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Really?

Would you care to back that up with some actual citations and facts?  So, you reject the studies that have pointed to a physical cause for what you would (at least I hope you would) refer to as "transsexualism."  At least that is what the studies call it.

Jennifer

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by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 11:34:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Did I say that?

No, I did not.
Jennifer, I remember back in the day when you were busy rejecting any need for surgery on alt.support.srs. You were no fan of "transsexualism" back then.

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by: CailleanMcM @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 18:46:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

To Clarify:

At least as it exists in the states.
It is curious to see Jennifer advocating for it; she once clung to an position quite opposite

Zoe;
I can agree with what you write but I loathe what the movement in the states has become associated with; a kind of pseudoscientific anti-LGB cultish either-or paradigm where they are women and everyone outside of the paradigm(post op lesbians, late transitioning individuals) is a fetishist.

It, as HBS is conceived of here, presupposes the old concept of gender identity and sexual orientation being linked functions, a concept that Zucker has some attraction for. But based upon early works on autonomous ego functions (Hartmann, Kris, Lowenstein), it is a wrong presupposition.

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by: CailleanMcM @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 17:45:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I understand what you're saying, but...

The problem isn't the Big Umbrella--It's our society's hatred of everyone who doesn't fit the sex/gender congruent-from-birth binary. Transphobia (and in some cases, homophobia) are the enemies here, not the terminology.

We're winning the war. The proof of that is the increase in hate crimes. It may get even uglier, but in the end, we'll win if all stick together.

Tax the Christian Taliban!

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by: Wolfgang @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 07:05:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is why in a different post,

 I had said there needs to be a honest discussion without the name calling and personal attacks.  The above comment, HBS = Hateful Bull Shit.

That comment serves no purpose.  I know that there is an attitude among many who feel the same way I do, and it is not that I am being hateful.  To the people who I choose to come out to, I have to explain what part of the big umbrella I fit under.  And then trying to explain the other people who are under this big umbrella I can't give enough information because I truly don't know.  

 I can explain what I went through in a honest way as I personally went through it.  I have a bit of an understanding of most other people under the umbrella, but not enough to make a convincing argument of why someone should support their rights.  And just about every time I try to engage in a discussion, it turns nasty.  

 Yes, I believe everyone has the right to live their life the way they desire, and they should never be put down for that.  But when trying to get people who have no clue about any portion of the Transgender Umbrella to support our rights the just because everyone has the right to live as they feel doesn't make the grade.

 And the assumptions that we who go through the full transition including GRS are transphobic is also wrong.  There needs to be honest discussion that actually creates an understanding of the others under the Umbrella.  Not the name calling.  

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 09:14:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Isn't it funny,,,,

We are accused of being hateful, and yet they are the ones using terms like that.  No, it serves no purpose, but it shows their true beliefs.

A lot of the feelings of those who reject "transgender" is based on people attacking us for simply wanting to be what we are, women.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 14:16:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Lets be honest here,

  The name calling comes from both sides.  I have witnessed it.  But those of us that have gone though transition do not want to be termed the same as those who cross-dress on the weekend or those who dress for drag shows.

 I also know that when it comes to transitioning, many people see the beginning as just that, we are cross dressing.  I have heard many make the claim that the big umbrella is holding those who plan to go through transition back.  Easy case and points can be made.

 The same mistake gets made through out the entire LGBT community.  Many T believe that the LGB should be able to understand us.  That isn't true.  We Ts have a lot in common with the LGB, more than most would think, but some just don't get it as they never had a situation they can relate to. Others choose to dump the Ts for political expedience.  This is something I learned during the ENDA debacle of 2007.

 We also know there is a divide is in the T community.  This needs to be handled with a rational discussion with out the name calling.

 As was mentioned by Pam, take the heated debate into the chat room.  Post a time to meet there and we can have the debate. Set the rules that there will be no name calling and insults.  Building the bridge of communication is going to be the only way to resolve the differences.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:41:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I was talking about society in general...

...when I mentioned the transphobia/homophobia.

I have trouble explaining what part of the umbrella I fit under as well, and having to describe the other categories. I don't see how there's any way around that. If one group of people attempts to take themselves out from under the umbrella, one of two things will eventually happen: You'll be lumped back under the umbrella because people will see that there's no difference between transsexual and HBS (other than the amount of individual variation allowed in each group), or transsexuals will be lumped in with HBS for the same reason.

By the way, I do agree with the neurological intersex theory. It's just intuitive to me. (The way Zoe hashes it out (several posts down) is brilliant.) The masculinity of my brain became evident way too young to be merely "psychological" (whatever that means, when everything that goes on in our minds has a bioelectrochemical basis).

But there will always be crossdressers, genderqueers, and others, and people will always draw parallels between them and us. We'll always have to explain the differences.

Tax the Christian Taliban!

---

by: Wolfgang @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 16:37:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I happen to support gay and lesbian rights...

But, on the other hand, I don't see them as having any connection to myself.  I have many friends who are gay or lesbian.  I support things like gay marriage, and I was the photographer at one friend's wedding before Prop 8 passed.  And I am hoping it will be overturned by the court.  In fact, I am friends with one of the couples who were plaintiffs in the case.

But, at the same time, I do not identify as, or appreciate being called, transgender.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 11:49:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I haven't said I am "a woman of transsexual history."

I have not really said anything, except that I am a woman.  Adding any qualification to that is what is offensive.  You see, that, as much as anything, is what is so offensive.  You insist on linking us to some terminology that we do not appreciate.

What you are doing is exactly the same sort of thing that Sandeen objects to.  You try to label us, but object when we return the favor.  You simply cannot seem to accept the concept that there are many who do simply move on with their lives.  Outside of the Internet, I do simply live my life as woman.  And this may come as a shock to you, but the Internet is not the real world.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 11:12:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hmmm

Megan, I think I interpret HBS a bit differently.

Let's toss out the gender clinic stuff. This isn't about hoop-jumping wioth Blanchard or Money.

Think genetics and fetal development.  Brain (or at least the part that governs self-perception as a gendered person) develops one way, and wolffian or mullerian duct system develops the other way.

There seems to be scientific proof:

- Gooren, Zhou etc. study on BSTc neuron density, at least two papers analyzing results.

- Recent studies regarding genes for "long androgen receptors" (and somtehing else that seems to impact FTMs)/

Essentially, HBS is a term for "trans" as medical condition rather than psychiatric disorder.

It has nothing, really, to do with enforcing gender stereotypes, etc.

One decent source for the science part is the TS-Si.org website.

BUT one has to take their social commentary with a grain of salt - they tend to create a strawman "transgender" and whack at it like a pinata.

It's almost like getting child-rearing advice from Focus on the Family.  If you keep away from the nutty anti-gay stuff, some of their stuff is possibly okay.

---

by: Joann Prinzivalli @ Fri May 01, 2009 at 08:43:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The bottom line is...

...proponents of HBS believe that:

a.) transsexuality is an intersex condition and not a mental health condition
b.) genital reconstruction surgery (GRS) cures transsexuality, and that one stops being a transsexual after having surgery -- becoming a _(fill in the blank of one's target sex, usually female)_.
c.) Since they don't perceive themselves to be transsexuals after GRS, they don't see themselves as transgender.
d.) They often see transsexuality in terms of Harry Benjamin's The Transsexual Phenomenon -- despite all the advances in knowledge on sex and gender that have been made in the 45-some years since that book was written.

It's not the HBS belief system that's the real problem though, it's that the people who embrace HBS more often than not have problems with bigotry against people who don't believe in sex and gender in the same way that HBS'ers believe about sex and gender.

Laura's right. Therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists don't embrace HBS in large part because it's a "medical condition" that's layperson developed and not medical or psychological professional developed, and because the many (if not most) of those who favor the HBS "diagnosis" use bigoted language against other gender variant people. And, their problem with trans-people-not-like-them is often is very often expressed in bigoted, anti-trans and anti-LGBT language, like the emailing woman in my diary above.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:43:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Um.

Wow. As just a simple gay dude, I am learning a lot from all this.

This HBS thing... even after surgery, one has to continue taking hormones, and other maintenance for the rest of their days, yes? How then can these people claim they are no longer transsexual, as if some magic transformation has taken place? Sounds like denial.

Well whatever, doesn't make sense, but if they want to think of themselves that way, I suppose they have that right.

But why do they feel the need to attack other people? Whose goddamn business is it what Autumn or anybody else looks like or dresses like, or anything else other people do that harms NO-ONE.

Sounds like plain old insecurity to me, and not anything like someone who has supposedly been cured or made complete.

---

by: Eshto @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 19:53:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually....

No, many, as they age, simply stop taking hormones and go through the change.  And, quite frankly, any woman who, for whatever reason, does not have ovaries, has to take hormones.  That has nothing to do with being "transsexual" or HBS.

No, the simple fact is, as I have said many times, I did not go through all of this to be "transgender" ot "trans-anything."  I am a woman.  If you don't like that, well that is your right.

And the issue is really not how Sandeen looks, or dresses...the issue is the position Sandeen takes, and the labels that Sandeen tries to impose on others.

No, it is not insecurity.  It is just anger at someone trying to co-opt our experience, and claim it as their own, or at least a part of their group.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 21:16:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Labels

"...the issue is the position Sandeen takes, and the labels that Sandeen tries to impose on others."

It is human nature to label persons, places, and things. Without labels, we wouldn't be able to have an intelligible conversation. I don't think any of us are trying to "impose" any labels on anyone. We are merely using them because they are a necessary tool for the expression of ideas.

"It is just anger at someone trying to co-opt our experience, and claim it as their own, or at least a part of their group."

Now, see, this is part of the problem. When you say things like this, you negate the very real experiences of many transsexuals, just because they don't live up to your definition of what a real transsexual is. That's downright inflammatory.

No one is trying to "co-opt [your] experience." We are all just trying to live our lives and our truths.

Tax the Christian Taliban!

---

by: Wolfgang @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 05:31:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually, the problem is not the HBS people...

Many of us have made it quite clear that when the time comes that people stop trying to drag us under their umbrella, we will gladly walk away and leave them be.

There really is a major difference between those who want to have their surgery and get on with their lives, which is what we have done, and those who wish to be transgender.

And yes, you are right...those who embrace HBS are relatively rare.  That is nothing new.  There were always far more transvestites, uh...crossdressers, uh...whatever they call themselves now, than their were transsexuals.  There were also always more who "wanted to be transsexuals" than their were true transsexuals.  And now, there are far more who identify as "transgender" than there are who are HBS.  That does not makes us better...it makes us different.

Leave us alone, and we will leave you alone.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 21:11:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You mean it's not a problem when...

...people who embrace HBS start using terms like "gay ghetto" or "transgender ghetto," call trans women "full time transvestites," "really men," "a man with a fetish," "a man with breasts," "Mr. _          _," and blame violent crime victims like Gwen Araujo and Angie Zapata for their own deaths?

Your idea of what is and isn't a problem doesn't seem to me to be rooted in reality of what I've read in the comments on The Blend, or found in the blog articles I read on the web, or found in the emails I read in my inbox.  

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 21:39:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Again...

Does it ever, even remotely, occur to you that we might actually just ignore you if you left us alone?  That if you stopped trying to drag people under the "umbrella" who don't want to be there, we might have no reason to comment on you?

Simply put, you stop trying to tell us that we are "transgender" and no one would have any real need to be so firm in pointing out the differences between us.

See, now isn't that simple...you acknowledge that we are women, and we will leave you in peace to identify as "trans women."  You continue to insist that we are trans women, and well, we will continue to point out the differences.

You acknowledge that being stealth is a legitimate personal choice that has nothing to do with shame or fear, and we would have no reason to complain.

You acknowledge that "transgender" is a an identity that should only be used to refer to someone who identifies as transgender, and does not automatically apply to everyone who might be transsexual or HBS, and we will gladly leave you in peace.

You see, to us, being called "transgender" is every bit as insulting as the terminlology that you object to.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 23:15:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You want to be left alone?

"Does it ever, even remotely, occur to you that we might actually just ignore you if you left us alone?"

You came here.

No one is forcing you to stand under the umbrella. Just walk out into the rain if you want. Keep to your own little circle of people who had HBS at one time but don't anymore, and I'll be happy to ignore you (unless you try to push for legislation or medical policies that would adversely affect trans people).

Tax the Christian Taliban!

---

by: Wolfgang @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 05:49:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, you got your wish

'cause Autumn banned yet another poster for something that happened somewhere else.  I certainly don't agree with everything JJ was saying here, but that's par for the course on any topic in this forum.  

That's three on this thread that I know of.  If the Queen of Hearts makes it four, much love to all.

---

by: HunterC @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 06:31:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I certainly didn't wish for her to be banned.

I just wanted her to stop and really think about the things she says.

Tax the Christian Taliban!

---

by: Wolfgang @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 06:52:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

There are also

crossdressers who simply crossdress and want nothing but to quietly live their lives, affecting no one but themselves.

I'm in love with one and have been for decades.

---

by: Louise @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 08:48:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

My issue with the HBS crowd is this

It is the loathesome attitude towards the LGBT community, remarks like this, from the owner of a prominent HBS site, tgnonsense:

In fact, attending even an hour, much less a week, with a bunch of butt-ugly, dirty, lesbian-centric, feminist females doing anything is never likely to be on high on my "to do"  list.

But...if one day I should decide to attend MWMF, they'll never know it.  And be truthful, Gynophile, my dear little greasy, motorcycle-smelling dyke, isn't that what really  bothers you?

And then there is this gem from Jennifer:

No amount of wishful thinking is going to make things completely safe. But if the TG activists continue this sort of foolishness, more will die.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 00:18:22 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Absolutely, but...

What you fail to mention and refer to, much less link to, is the specific blog post you quote me on...so here it is:  http://tgnonsense.wordpress.co...

...the same blog post in which I link to the MWMF blog (particularly one commenter with the user name Gynophile that rudely, aggressively, and sarcasticly insults me specifically and all post operative females in general...so hear it is as well:  http://michfest.com/forums/vie...

By the way, Ms Hennessey, as you are supposed to be an attorney, I'm not quite sure why you insist on calling my blog an "HBS site" considering the many times we have called that militant group on their BS.  You might also notice that Gynophile starts out by referencing a TG Non-Sense post named "The Hypocracy of the HBS Movement."

Prior to your comment, I had respect for your input.  But to quote my post out of context, describing me as someone with a "loathesome attitude towards the LGBT community" without explaining what brought on my ire is reprehensible.

Did I respond to Gynophile...absolutely.

---

by: EnoughNonSense @ Sun May 03, 2009 at 14:43:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Intersex != trans

a.) transsexuality is an intersex condition and not a mental health condition

Which then deprives those with an actual intersex condition from their own identity. Last time I checked the ISNA made a strong differentiation between trans and intersex (http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender)

---

by: linus @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 22:28:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Intersex is not an identity....

It is an objective term.  Like HBS.  Now, if the science behind HBS is correct, then yes, HBS would be a form of intersex.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 23:17:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Unfortunately,

...those born with intersex conditions who identify as intersex probably would strongly disagree with you that "intersex is not an identity."

I've met quite a few fo folk who do identify as intersex. And just like everyoe who could, by definition, identify as transgender don't want to identify as transgender, there are intersex people who could fall under the definition of intersex who do see themselves as having an intersex identity.

In fact, OII is an intersex organization of those who do identify as intersex people.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 08:34:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, some have tried to make Intersex a matter of identity politics...

Doing so is just plain wrong.  It makes about as much sense as some group getting together and calling themselves "Diabetic-Americans" and demanding that all foods containing sugar be banned, because otherwise it is unfair.

Intersex is, again, something very objective.  Either you are, or you are not.  You cannot choose to be intersex, like you can choose to be "transgender."  Likewise, you cannot choose to not be intersex if you are.  To make it a matter of "identity" just shows how silly things can become.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 12:03:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

this is incorrect.

Intersex is indeed an identity.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:07:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with quite a bit of this,

a.) transsexuality is an intersex condition and not a mental health condition.

Now I wont say that it is an intersex condition per se.  But I wont call it a metal health condition or a mental disorder.  I look at is as a birth defect.  A woman born with a penis.  This is how I felt before GRS.  

b.) genital reconstruction surgery (GRS) cures transsexuality, and that one stops being a transsexual

Although I would say I am a transsexual, as the term relates to changing the sex(genitalia).  My mind has always been that of the woman I am. It was such a relief to actually have what I should have been born with.  I could say honestly, that GRS/SRS cured my problem.

c.) Since they don't perceive themselves to be transsexuals after GRS, they don't see themselves as transgender.

This makes sense to me.  I am a woman, my parts all match which they didn't before GRS.  I will add my thoughts of Transgender below.

d.) They often see transsexuality in terms of Harry Benjamin's The Transsexual Phenomenon -- despite all the advances in knowledge on sex and gender that have been made in the 45-some years since that book was written

Granted I have never read the book.  From what I do know about Harry Benjamin, is the HBSOC Harry Benjamin's Standards of Care.  Through all I went through from coming out to GRS, I fit perfectly with the explanations I received from the three psychologists I went to.  

I honestly do not believe there is anything wrong with my brain. My body and my brain didn't match.  Fix the body, that is what I did.  Am I transgender and/or transsexual?  NO, I am a woman, PERIOD.  Given the wide definitions that have been given to both terms, I feel I fit the Transsexual definition, even though today it is covered under the big umbrella term Transgender.  

Throughout my divorce, I was forced to use those terms.  My lawyer decided it was best to use transgender to describe me to the court, as it doesn't contain the SEX in the label.  Plus, when my divorce began, I still had little willy between my legs.  Little Willy went bye bye one month after my divorce began.  My parts between my legs would now determine that I am a woman, since that is what they used to judge my gender at birth.  Quickly, since my divorce was a custody case, my attorneys and I changed the language to which of the two women in the court room would be the best parent to have custody.  Which brought the argument to which of the two of us would be the best mother.  

Again, I am a woman 100%, and not a trans-?????  that is how I personally feel. I don't understand how a woman would still want to keep a penis between their legs.  But there are trangender people that choose that way to live.  That is fine by me as it is their personal choice.  I will support them and will fight for their rights to be who they are.  

Now we all know there are so many variables that fall under the term, Transgender. We also know that many do not like being associated with others in that group.  There are men that dress in woman's clothes for sexual reasons, it turns them on.  I know who I am and that ain't me.  And yet I am put into that same group of people under the big umbrella term, Transgender.  I know that many people who feel the same way as I do believe that those who wish to transition and move on with their lives are being held back when it comes to legal protections because of the Big Umbrella Term.  

This is a discussion that needs to take place.  A break down of those who are now covered under the Big Umbrella term with more specific definitions. Unfortunately, every attempt to have this discussion turns into name calling and personal attacks.  

I know I have a lot in common with many of the HBSers from what I have read.  I don't want to be labeled as Waking up and feeling like a woman one day and a man the next but yet that label is getting forced on me with the Big Umbrella term Transgender.

I have tried to have a conversation before and got flamed for it.  The name calling began and then was followed by some hurtful insults.  I don't know what the solution is, but I can only offer my opinion.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 23:39:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Simply put...

If you strip alway all of the outrageous remarks made by some here, you are pretty much in the same place as those who are HBS.  In fact, within the criteria that has been proposed, you would be HBS.

Again, HBS is an objective thing.  The idea is not that one would identify as HBS, just that it is what someone has.  Now, it is even possible to have HBS and identify as transgender.  One is an adopted identity, and should only be seen as an adopted identity.  The other is an objective condition.

In fact, it has been discussed that Harry Benjamin Syndrome is a proposed name, that it could be called something else, as long as it is clearly differentiated as something objective.  More than anything else, it is an objection to being labeled as having gender identity disorder.  There is nothing disordered about our gender identity.  We contend that we have a neurological condition, with a physical basis.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 12:18:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Great, Autumn, I find a part of the summary of HBS I don't go with

it's "b." - GRS doesn't cure - it treats. - it allows the individual to have a body that more closely matches the way the brain developed. GRS technically creates eunuchs (i.e., people who are not reproductively capable in the original asssigned sex) - but from a legal standpoint, this should be sufficient for full legal recognition as a member of the target sex.

In my view, based on the genetics and development, a person with HBS is/belongs to the target binary sex without surgery, based on BSTc and developmental situations regarding the brain.

Those who are full-time but non-surgical (whether because its not yet scheduled, or there are medical barriers, or the individual does not have the deepest feeling of need for a conforming-to-identity body) should not necessarily have the same full legal recognition as member of target sex. Limits:
1 - reasonable accommodation in public spaces where nudity is required (time slicing or other privacy) - YES
2 - ID for social purposes except "marriage" (until gender-neutral marriage laws are adopted) - YES
3 - birth certificate (Name - YES, assignment from wrong initial se to blank, while getting the corrected sex after surgery)
4 - marriage - NO (unless proven to be non-reproductively capable in original assignment or gender-neutral marriage laws apply.

I can live with some distinctions. I would not want to be naked in a women's locker room with my birth defect on display.  

---

by: Joann Prinzivalli @ Fri May 01, 2009 at 08:57:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, dear.

How trivializing. "You don't look alike a woman at all." What does a woman look like, pray?

Some years back, I remember sitting in drag shows, week after week, and noticing that some of the most vocal fans in the audience were big, buzz-cut, plaid-wearing lesbians. 'That's curious,' I thought, so I asked 'do you not think the men on the stage are making fun of women?' They happily explained that the performers weren't making fun of women (with the hair, the nails, the sparklies, the frilly bits), they were making fun of what men expect women to look like. It was a wonderful revelation to me, and one I have carried with me ever since, even to taking the veil.

That painful email appears to say that gender issues (including the transgender) are based entirely on superficial appearances. I understand it goes considerably deepr than that.

Beauty is skin deep. Ugly goes to the bone.

---

by: SMFP @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 14:45:35 PM CDT

I'm making that my new email sig

Beauty is skin deep. Ugly goes to the bone.

Perfectly said. Thank you.

Autumn, I have to second shaz4005's request for clarification. Not being in the T community, I'm a little confused as to the different terminology used by different people. I'd never even heard of the term Harry Benjamin Syndrome! I also read the Wiki entry, and yes, it was filled to the brim with transphobic ugliness. Many thanks to shaz for editing it. I read the HBIGDA SOC document you provided the link to, and I think I understand a bit better. Let me see if I have a handle on the situation you are describing:

People who subscribe to the idea of HBS believe that a "true" gender identity disorder is a proven neurological problem that can only be fixed by SRS. Once post-op, the "true" transsexual person is expected to conform to a strict heteronormative, binary gender role standard of appearance. He/she has no business calling him/herself a transsexual, but a "man/woman with transsexual history" and has no business slumming with us filthy GLB types. Pre-op people, those who opt to live as their target gender without actually going through SRS, post-op people who are gay or lesbian within their target gender, and genderqueer presenting people aren't "true" transsexual or transgender people, but mere fetishists.

That seems like an incredibly narrow, judgmental, self-righteous, smug worldview.

Please correct me if my perceptions are inaccurate. I really want to understand this so I can be the best T ally possible.

And as one final note, I think you're amazing and lovely. From one sailor to another, I raise a tumbler of grog in your honor!

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:02:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

As a member of HBS Australia I have to say...

Keori wrote:

Please correct me if my perceptions are inaccurate.

They're accurate, alas. Spot-on, in fact.

Please make a distinction between the neuroscience on one hand, and the quasi-religious "narrow, judgmental, self-righteous, smug worldview" on the other though.

I agree with you completely that that is exactly what it is. It doesn't conform to the science either, which is what the HBS movement was originally based on.

I might add that the Australian version is far less dogmatic and narrow-minded. Unfortunately, I think that we're unique compared to other branches.

I don't identify as "Transgendered". But I don't get a say in it, do I? I don't identify as "Gay" either, but again, my opinion is irrelevant.

I do identify as a friend and ally of Autumn, if that helps. Someone proud to be associated with her. Someone very proud to call her friend.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

---

by: ZoeB @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 20:42:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mmmm. Grog.

Thank you for your service too, my friend. :)

I wrote a brief description of HBS in a comment here. That said, ZoeB has a pretty good analysis of HBS, and she wrote it out in a comment below.

As for the smug and judgemental thing, I added a comment below that talks about the similarity and differences between ex-gay/ex-transgender/conservative "Christian" take on "homosexuals," and the HBS'ers take on transsexuals and transgender people. The similarities have a lot to do with how each group embraces their dogma.

Basically, the HBS philosophy isn't similar at all in the type of dogma that the ex-gay/ex-transgender/conservative "Christian dogma on "homosexuals," but the brooking of no dogma but the accepted dogma by HBS'ers is very similar to the way ex-gay/ex-transgender/conservative "Christians" brook no dogma but the accepted dogma about "homosexuals."

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 20:50:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually...

Basically, the HBS philosophy isn't similar at all in the type of dogma that the ex-gay/ex-transgender/conservative "Christian dogma on "homosexuals," but the brooking of no dogma but the accepted dogma by HBS'ers is very similar to the way ex-gay/ex-transgender/conservative "Christians" brook no dogma but the accepted dogma about "homosexuals."

As I say, actually, what you describe, "the brooking of no dogma but the accepted dogma" is exactly what most transgender activists engage in.  Look at some of your own comments.  Look at comments from people like Monica Helms, Mercedes Allen, Marti Abernathy, and any number of others.  Look at how nasty they tend to respond to anyone who dares to {GASP} disagree with them.  Look at how often they resort to censorship to remove comments that simply disagree.

Again, leave us alone, and we will do the same for you,

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 21:24:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Leaving you alone

We want to leave you alone but you keep invading our spaces and trolling with comments.  If you are so offended take your ball and go home or at least present some scientific proof that HBS is real.  We have all asked for proof. Autumn has pointed it out above that we are just asking for some medical/psychological backing on this.  So far you have been unable to present evidence that backs your position.  As a transwoman, I am highly offended by you calling Autumn a gender facist on your blog and presenting a "nice" persona here.  Give us some proof and maybe we might be willing to hear your suggestion.  But all you are doing is trying to bully us into accepting a position that is not accepted within the medical and psychological communities. This position is as suspect as NARTHs claim about same sex attraction syndrome which is why it too is not accepted as valid.  So please play nice or leave this space.  I believe in healthy debate but you are engaging in underhanded bullying tactics which dont lead to healthy intelligent debates.  

Try not. Do or do not. There is no try.

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by: celestialaly12 @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 12:03:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually, we have presented evidence,,,,

Have you actually bothered to look?  And yes, I created the label "gender fascist."  And thanks for reading ny blog. That was a reaction to being labeled a "gender fundamentalist" as I recall.  So, you are offended?  That is your choice.  I am offended all of the time, so I guess that makes us even.  But, I would prefer that you do something that seems very rare among those who identify as "transgender."  I would would ask that you actually think.

As to evidence, check out www.harrybenjaminsyndrome.org.

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by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 12:34:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ah Think THink Think

I would say I think..and thanks for the transphobia by putting the term transgender in quotes.  That is how the Religious Right demonizes LGBT people by putting the term gay or transsexual in their writings and press releases.  Really i looked for evidence but i couldn't find any scientific proof from any reputable physicians or psychologists or any reputable organization so whatever "evidence"(see I can do it too) you presented has not been studied, tested or even remotely verified.  HBS and the HBSOC are outdated based on old ideas of what gender are and I believe in working to educate people and helping to over come the idea that there is something wrong with me mentally in regards to my gender identity.  You don't educate, you spread hate.  So please take your ball and go home.  You aren't wanted.  

Try not. Do or do not. There is no try.

---

by: celestialaly12 @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 12:50:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No...

They may be based on ideas that are contrary to your beliefs concerning gender, but they are based in real science.  Many who identify as transgender base their beliefs on the concept that "gender is a social construct."  That is, they claim that all differences between men and women are totally artificial, and therefore a woman can have a penis, or a man can have a vagina.  Now, I, along with the vast majority of society, and science, find that amusing, but rather silly.

Sorry, but I have as much of a right to express my opinion as you do. Funny, isn't it?  I respect your idea to hold your beliefs, but you, who I would guess imagines yourself as being on so openminded, are afraid to be confronted with a contrary view, and simply resort to dismissive language, rather than actually attempting to refute what is presented.

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by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:14:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why is it silly?

they claim that all differences between men and women are totally artificial, and therefore a woman can have a penis, or a man can have a vagina.  Now, I, along with the vast majority of society, and science, find that amusing, but rather silly.

I don't believe that all differences between men and women are artificial. On average, men are stronger - in short bursts, anyway. On average, women have more endurance. That's physical, and influenced by body chemistry. There are real differences between men and women. But genitalia is among the least interesting parts of anyone, unless you happen to be having sex with him or her at the moment. Why should a person's entire life and expression be tied to genitalia?

I would not choose to date anyone - man or woman - who had a vagina. I also wouldn't choose to date anyone who had strong religious beliefs they felt compelled to share. I'm an atheist, and it would lead to an unsatisfactory relationship. I'm a gay man who really, really likes dick, and it would lead to an unsatisfactory sex life. That says nothing about the other person, it just tells you my priorities in intimate relationships.

On the contrary, it's because men and women are different - wonderfully different - in so many ways, that having a vagina or a penis is irrelevant to the way they live, love, and face each day.

Now I acknowledge there are two worlds in my head. The world we live in, and the world we should live in. While I acknowledge and do my best to fit in to the former, I never stop working for the latter. In the former, I believe a transgender/transsexual person should disclose, early and often. It's for personal safety, in a less-than-perfect world. In the latter, it would be no more notable than my finding out my date won't rest until I thank the soul of the cow for my dinner. A disappointment, and a definite indicator that there's no real possibility of anything long-term, but one of those little things life hands you occasionally.

In here, where it's "just us", why all the fuss and bother over a little bit of tissue?

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

---

by: QueerInSoCal @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 08:36:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is Harry Benjamin's Syndrome, exactly?

I tried to educate myself, but Google provides links to badly spelled blogs and poorly designed web pages with rambling, unformatted paragraphs, and the Wikipedia article is horrific. It would seem to be a way for some people to distance themselves from both the "mental illness" associations and the long-standing common cause between transgender people and LGB issues. Autumn, if you or someone else could point me to some quality information, I would be in your debt.

And Autumn, I am saddened by the anger being aimed in your direction. For what it is worth, I have seen the same thing in many different forms, where someone gets a bee in her bonnet about who "we" are and what "our" issues should be and damn anyone who does not conform. Unfortunately, such people tend to end up in positions of prominence because of their passionate dedication. On the upside, they do tend to burn out pretty quickly and aren't prominent for very long. Keep up the good work.

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by: TechBear @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 14:57:11 PM CDT

What is HBS?

Here's a reply I wrote to a member of OII - Organisation Intersex International - who asked just exactly what the HBS - Harry Benjamin Syndrome -political group was, in Australia.

It details my thoughts as they've crystalised on the etyology of Transsexuality, what it is, what causes it, and is a decent summary of what we know so far.

  I can't give you "the" picture of HBS. I have some significant differences from may others on the issue.

   For example, I believe that the gender binary is merely a very good approximation. Just like it's best to treat the Earth as being flat, locally. It's not, but it works best when walking to the corner shop if you treat the journey as if it is.

   I believe that gender is in the brain, and so is sex, and sexual orientation. But again, though it's really useful to make categories of "male", "female", "straight", "bi" etc, and while those definitions may be exact, not just approximate, descriptions of most people, for a large proportion they are only approximations, and for a small minority, bad approximations at that. So bad they're not just useless, but counter-productive.

   I believe that it's most likely that "typically female" or "typically male" patterns of neural development, stereotypes to which individuals conform to a large degree (usually) happen as the result of the foetal hormonal environment, as modified by genetics. Atypical development may happen, and we're talking only about the lymbic nucleus here, the brainstem, hypothalamus etc , areas whose development is mostly or completely set before birth.

   These lymbic patterns affect later development of the cerebral cortex (in ways we don't understand - insert much handwaving here, though not elsewhere), in particular lateralisation and connections in the corpus callosum. In addition, the typically female or typically male instincts and emotional responses dictated by the pre-natally hard-wired lymbic system later on lead to the child comparing themselves with peers and adults, and consequently developing a male or female "gender identity" based on who they most resemble.

   Just to complicate things... the brain is such a complex organ, that in this case it's useful to see it as an assembly of different organs, much as the reproductive system isn't a single organ, but an assembly, where different parts can conform to different degrees to either of the standard stereotypes. And just as the reproductive system changes morphology, and is to some degree "plastic" and subject to environmentally caused change (notably at puberty), so are the higher brain structures. Yet no new structures develop, the basic pattern is set before birth.

   So an individual, whether cissexual, transsexual, or intersexed, will usually have a brain that conforms strongly to a masculine stereotype in some areas, and weakly to a female stereotype in others, or the reverse. The areas will differ between individuals though, and what evidence we have from cases of 5ARD and 17BHDD is that perhaps a third of people can function in either gender role. I wish we had more to confirm this. For that matter, I wish we understood what gives rise to left-handedness or ambidexterity, areas of brain development post-birth that are equally as radical (neurologically speaking) as many of the bimodal sex differences.

   In practical terms, one of the most important areas is that of body image. Most will have a strong body image conforming to one stereotype or another, but some will not. This is observable in Intersexed people, many of whom "want to be normal", but some of whom object strongly to the concept of having their genitals surgically altered, even though they may be atypical. In the worst case, an Intersexed person who "wants to be normal" has had their genitals surgically changed to make them as abnormal as they can be, to be those of the opposite sex to the stereotype given by their "body image".

   Where I radically differ from the standard HBS model is that the evidence to me shows that while there is a strong correlation between stereotypes-conformity in all parts of the brain, it's not exact. As just one example, it's not just possible, it's inevitable that there will be some people with strong male identities, whose brains in general conform to a typically male stereotype, but whose body image is that of a female to a greater or lesser degree. Some men feel most comfortable having feminised genitalia, and some women feel most comfortable having masculinised genitalia. And many more are just afraid of surgery, and want to live with whatever they're lumbered with, even if it's not optimal. All-consuming desire for typical genitalia is not a reliable touchstone for determining gender, any more than chromosomes are a reliable touchstone for determining sex. They're just really, really good approximations.

   The standard HBS model, as I interpret it, as over-simplistic. There are male brains, and female brains, period. If you have a male brain, you NEED (not just desire) male genitalia, and if you have a female brain, you NEED (not just desire) female genitalia, and that's all there is to it. Everything else is "psychological" and any ambiguity or anomaly a "mental illness". I don't agree with this, as it results in trying to coerce observations into fitting what is almost a religious theory rather than a scientific one. It's basically correct, but only as correct as saying the Earth is flat. The further you go from the local area, the less useful such a view becomes. Go far enough away, and it breaks down completely.

   One more thing, which may colour my interpretations of the data. This is the Australian HBS group, and in Australia, it is the medical and legal position that what is termed "transsexuality" is a form of neurological intersex, where (parts or a part of) the brain is cross-gendered compared to the majority of the rest of the body.

As for me? My aim is to be a decent human being. The rest doesn't matter so much. I happen to fit really well into the Gender Binary model - at least, psychologically. Somatically, not so much, alas. The thing is, I'm not arrogant enough to think that what applies to me must apply to everyone.

Many in the HBS political groups are highly homophobic. For example, they made the ridiculous prediction that when Joe Solomese promised that the HRC would oppose any version of ENDA that excluded trans people, that he was lying, and would break that promise as soon as the donations from Southern Comfort flowed in. They've made similar ridiculous predictions based on GLB(t) behaviour in the past.

OK, so they've been right 100% of the time, that still doesn't excuse the vitriol. They also conveniently ignore the 300 GLBT groups who spoke out in favour of an inclusive ENDA, because that didn't fit their party line.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

---

by: ZoeB @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 20:03:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Something I have never understood

Is why some GLB groups are so loathe to support the T community. WTF, aren't we all negatively affected by the misogyny at the root of our troubles? This same misogyny is responsible for homophobia, transphobia, fat-shaming, slut-shaming, any social attitude in which cisgendered men (usually white and straight, but not always) get to pass judgment on anyone who doesn't live up to their standard of what a "real man" or "real woman" is. These HBS proponents seem to be engaging in the same kind of misogyny by claiming moral authority via their idea of neuroscience to judge anyone they feel doesn't fit their standard of gender presentation. WTF? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, right up there with the Log Cabinettes. Either we're all in this fight together or we're not.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 10:34:26 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually, no....

Those who identify as having HBS really could care less what others want to call themselves, claim to be, or how they want to dress...except, because these people want to insist that we are "just like them," we are forced to become involved.

The simple, irrefutable, bottom line is that there are very real, identifiable differences between us and them.  It is not that we are better, just that we are different.

The entire idea that we claim to be at the top of some sort of hierarchy is in the minds of those who are "transgender."  Our contention would be that there is not a hierarchy since we are not in the same classification to begin with.  How can we be better, when we are not even in the same group?

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by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 12:51:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sadly for you

In the eyes of the cisgendered, queer hating public, you are just like us.  So whether you want to be or not, you are involved and thats the rub huh?  You dont want to be involved with genderqueer, butch mtfs, femme ftms, crossdressers, transvestites or any other smattering of gender skewing individuals but too bad you are.  You do have a holier than thou are attitude though and you do claim to be better.  Look at the comments directed at Autumn, not only by the woman in the emails but by you on this blog and your own. To me those words speak loudly about how self-righteous, self aggrandizing, and how much better you consider yourself.  

Try not. Do or do not. There is no try.

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by: celestialaly12 @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:07:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry....

But again, you are wrong.  In the eyes of "the cisgendered, queer hating public" I am a woman.  I have dated several men, and had sex with most of them, without them ever knowing my past.  Oh, of course I am a post op, so that sort of helps.

You see, I am a woman.  When someone, usually some transgender who has tired of being refuted, starts attacking me, I just shrug it off because it has no basis in truth.

Now, that does raise an interesting paradox, doesn't it?  I have had, on occasion, some trans person attack me and call me names.  I have had them call me a man, insist that I dont pass, etc., all because I disagreed with them.  But I could care less.  I brush it off, and move on.  And yet, I am what you would probably sneeringly call "stealth" or "in the closet."

Now, others, who are "out, loud, and proud" get all upset because someone attacks them for "looking like a man," and yet they insist on wearing their past on their sleeve (literally in some cases).  They regularly make it clear that they are "transgender," and that they have a male past that they willingly embrace.  And yet, when someone makes a remark linking them to that past, they are ranting about it.

No, I am not better.  I am just different.  Now, if you cannot accept that, maybe it is you who has the problem.

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by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:21:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I've never understood why ANYONE would be loath to support the T community

Or at least oppose their basic human dignity.

I think, at the heart of the animosity, is the quest for "normalcy" (scare quotes deliberate.) Many LGB activists emphasize the need to be openly gay or bi and thereby demand equal rights through prominence. Many (it seems to me) T activists simply want to put their lives back together after the upheaval of transition and would prefer not to be open or prominent.  

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by: TechBear @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 11:09:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

PERFECT, Zoe.

I can't put it better than you did.

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by: Joann Prinzivalli @ Fri May 01, 2009 at 09:00:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"...the ultimate parasite..."

Wow, that particular line of attack is so ludicrous, yet so hateful, my brain can't quite take it all in.

...

Being visible as an activist is an act of generosity on your part, Autumn, and I believe it has had and will continue to have positive repercussions far beyond what you're able to immediately perceive.  Extend your compassion to the tortured mind that produced that email.  If you're a praying kind of person, pray for her.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

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by: Sportin' Life @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 14:57:41 PM CDT

Blame the victim

The way she blames Angie and Gwen for their own murders because they somehow "deceived" the men they had (or didn't have) sex with is reprehensible. It's hard to believe that she honestly thinks that her and her like-minded friends are immune to the same accusations of deception just because they consider themselves "HBS", though I'm pretty sure that they actually think this way. Now that's real ugliness.

And you did a great job of covering the trial...I just want to thank you for that.

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by: megan @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:02:15 PM CDT

As to Angie and Gwen...

No, they are no more responsible for their deaths than a rape victim.  But  it is important for those who still have that certain something extra between their legs to remember that they can quickly find themselves in danger.  The message I keep seeing presented by certain transgender activists, while not explicitly stated, is that those in that situation should not even consider that danger.  That they have some absolute right to date whoever they want to, damn the consequences.  Now, one might have an absolute right to expect to left in peace, but that does not mean it is going to happen.  I have a right to expect to not be raped, or robbed, but also recognize that as a woman, I can be a target.  That is why I often take a cab when it is nightime and I need to return home.  That is why I ask a friend to stay with me until I get a cab.  That, quite simply, is why I avoid all sorts of situations.  Not that it would be my fault if I were raped, but because I simply recognize the danger and avoid it.

Do I think that Angie and Gwen are responsible for their deaths?  No.  Do I wish they had exercised a bit more discretion and made better choices?  I would be a monster if I did not.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 12:59:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Being transsexual...

In nearly 15 years of involvement in the TG community, I have honestly never heard of HBS. After checking out the links Autumn provided, it appears to me the proponents of HBS want to use it as a "new" condition and associated definition so as to remove the stigma of mental illness or defect that the presence of GID in the DSM-IV creates. In reality, HBS and GID are the same thing, just worded differently. A rose by any other name, so to speak. I am sorry but promoting HBS is not going to de-stigmatize transsexuality, GID, or whatever name you choose.

I do know there are a lot of transsexuals that for a numbe of reasons, cannot afford or simply choose not to go to a surgeon like Dr. O for FFS, or to Dr. Bowers, Dr. McGinn, et. al. for a Vaginoplasty (GCS/SRS/GRS/etc.). That does not make any of us less of a woman. There was a woman (gg) on Rachael Ray the other day that did really look or sound like a woman. Does this make her - or Autumn - less that a woman? Absolutely NOT!!!

Part of the journey of transition is learning to accept yourself (and others) for who we are. We put too much emphasis on looks from a society's "ideal" appearance. I am happy with me the way I am and I would bet Autumn feels the same way. This person may say she has HBS, but in reality is a wolf in sheep's clothing, for she is jealous of Autumn and does NOT like herself. Someone needs to not be so critical of others just because you could afford something they did, or were fortunate enough not to need it (i.e., FFS) in the first place. Let's call being critical like that what it really is: hate of the horizontal kind. If we can't work together, we will never go anywhere. Can't we all just get along?

One last note: I had a now former friend who had her BS in psychology. After her GCS, she told me that, although she didn't know me very well, she knew me well enough that I was NOT a transsexual, which is why we broke up. Two PhD psychologists, each with over 25 years experience dealing with transsexual clients, disagreed with her and as a result, I got both of my letters and had my GCS last year.

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by: Jennyc @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:20:26 PM CDT

Well said.

  congrats on the GRS.  I wrote a comment, Run over by a truck.

If you really want to know what it feels like to be run over by a truck, who would you ask?  A person that has been run over by a truck, or, someone who says they have studied on the subject, but has no true experience at it.

 I knew back when I was 5 that something aint right.  I just didn't know how to explain it.  As I got older I still knew something wasn't right.  It took meeting a psychologist who had knowledge of transsexuallity to put the pieces together many years ago.  

 Every transgender person I know has known since a young age.  To be told that we are not from another person would piss me off.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:13:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It is a bit more complicated...

Most of us, who now prefer HBS, would be perfectly happy with the term "transsexual," had that term not become overtaken by the transgender crowd, and also, had it not become a label for a catergory of pornography.  We don't like the term GID for obvious reasons.  In fact, that term was introdued in the lastest DSM.  Before it was transsexual.

Now, as to FFS, some don't need it, others could benefit, but I agree, the cost is outrageous.  But those who claim they cannot "afford" SRS are just making an excuse.  It may not be easy, but if you really need it, you will find the money.  And hey, if you don't really need it, you are better off not having it.

It was not easy for me to get it paid for, but I did.  I lived for almost two years on less than half what I have now, but it was worth it.  I did without a lot of stuff, including some of my dignity, bu I made it.

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by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:15:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

SRS

"But those who claim they cannot 'afford' SRS are just making an excuse."

How do you know? And what does it matter to you anyway? Which surgical procedures a person chooses to have or not have, and their reasons for making those choices, are highly personal.  

Tax the Christian Taliban!

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by: Wolfgang @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 06:14:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It is not quite that simple...

Actually, most of us, for many years, were perfectly happy with the term "transsexual."  But, the term has taken on baggage that we are uncomfortable with.  One of the biggest problems is that it has been linked with a specific form of pornography,

Now, as to the issue of affording surgery, the simple fact is, if you really need surgery, you will find the money.  And if you don't really need surgery, you are better off not having it.

What puzzles me is why some have this bizarre need to claim to be "pre-op" when they make every possible excuse to not actually have the surgery.

It took me quite a bit of effort, and doing without to pay for my surgery.  I lived on about half what I should have been making.  And the ironic thing is, mine was covered by insurance.  I stayed with a crappy job, where I was not treated that well, just to get it covered.  Oh, and the ironic thing was, most of the one's who gave me a hard time still didn't haven't surgery, even when it was covered.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:25:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How much do they really damage us?

"It's hard enough to deal with life that we shouldn't have to face challenges, discrimination and/or prejudice within our own "family". There seems to be too much of an emphasis by some on the idea of passing perfectly rather than being ourselves. "

Every extended "family" has someone that doesn't fit in.  Everyone has that relative, the one with the culture and professed values that are not that of the family.  Perhaps the person has taken up the mantle of some extremist group or cult that is willing to give them comfort by excluding all that don't buy in to the professed wisdom.  In blood-based extended families, it's usually a teenager/young adult that is searching for hirself or the middle-aged, crazy whack-job of an aunt or uncle who has realized they don't like who they are and time is running out.  The HBS-ers that profess such extremism (and yes, it does resemble the religious neo-cons both in exclusionary practice and self-boasting) could be either.  Regardless, they are and should be regarded as the "odd" members of our extended family.  Still part of the family, so you kinda have to at least invite them to the Big Family Reunion Picnic.  But not Sunday dinner, or Thanksgiving, or trips to the grocery store, even if they do live nearby.

As to their main fear..."passing perfectly" as what?  This year's ideal image of a (young) woman or man?  The image your first gender therapist would have had sexual fantasies over?  In which (assumed American) subculture, please?  If you must blend into a target gender, please pick the subculture that best fits your values, live your life accordingly and guess what?  You "pass".  It's not always all about how you look, baby.  Unless, of course, your values are all about how you look.  Then, suddenly everything changes.  And you find yourself in a very precarious position, always waiting, terrified of being pushed down the hierarchy of youth and beauty.  

Yes, they are angry and hateful.  And they are not well.   But they are the part of our extended family, even if we'd rather avoid all contact with them.  My hope is that someday, shunning them will seem akin to hiding that distant relative with schitzophrenia or bipolar or Down's up in the attic out of our shame.  And we are stronger than that.

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by: sarasnavel @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:23:16 PM CDT

Thanks for proving my point...

No, we are not a part of your "family."  Get over it.

This is exactly the thing that we find so offensive.  You want people to accept when you claim to be a woman.  Even if they don't see you as one.  But you won't extend that courtesy to those who say, "We are not a part of your little club."

Just leave us be.

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by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:33:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ok i will

but you have to leave us be too like i said..please just leave this blog and everyone will be alot better off.

Try not. Do or do not. There is no try.

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by: celestialaly12 @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:41:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't think we are anywhere near that point yet...

So, I am not going to be run off that easily.  But I really do wonder, why do you have so many issues with people disagreeing with you?

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by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:50:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Upthread: What does a woman look like?

Damned if I know!

The truth is you walk, talk, and behave like a man with breasts.

I'm straight and this description could be easily applied to me 90+% of the time.

Yet I am indeed a woman.

What an unfortunately cruel and misguided person she is...

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by: Louise @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:23:34 PM CDT

Me too...

I'm a ciswoman. I came out of the Air Force with a stride, not a step. In High School I was lead tenor in chorus(although I did have some problems with the lowest end of the tenor register). I have always been a tomboy.

Autumn wears makeup and dresses (while I don't). And yet I'm the woman and she's not?

Here's the big question, just as it is with Same sex marriage: How does how someone else lives effect you? Answer: It doesn't, unless you let it, and that's not her problem, it's yours.

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by: Katmac @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 08:06:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Being a woman....

You know, it is not about how you walk, how you dress, wearing make up, or anything to do with how you look.  That is part of the problem many have with the "transgender model" as some have called it.

And my problem is not with how anyone lives.  My problem is with someone trying to define me.

---

by: Just Jennifer @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:54:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ugly/pretty/human

It sounds almost like there is this resentment that you are not following some arbitrary rules for the behavior of trans people. As if, "How dare you show yourself if you don't look like the heteronormative depiction of a woman!"

It's such a narrow view. I am a ciswoman and not a particularly pretty one. I'm sure there are people out there who think I have no business going in public either.

And they're as stupid as the author of that letter.

I'm sorry you have to deal with this. As my mother says, "Be grateful you don't have to live in her head."

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by: Stratonike @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:39:11 PM CDT

it's truly sad

the way some trans people treat other trans people! Sorry you're on the receiving end of this hatred Autumn. I get so tired of the infighting in our community, it is counter productive to what should be a mutual goal of ending oppression of ALL people! I believe the trans community needs to work together towards achieving these goals, even if we don't always agree on every single thing.

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by: zythyra @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:48:12 PM CDT

Is it the place

of people (like myself) who aren't part of a group to call out something?

I'd never heard of HBS - and after reading about it, I'm still not sure I understand completely what it is they're saying. It reads like someone is trying to figure out the Root Cause of transgenderism. [shrug] Fine, if that's how you want to spend your time. Reshaping this into something I'm more familiar with, I don't care why I'm gay, and I don't know why people would spend time trying to figure it out. I am gay, how I got here is only relevant if you see it as a problem, and want to prevent future occurrences. That's what I map onto this HBS stuff. What does it matter how you got where you are? Why is anything other than where you go from here even important?

The tone and language are reprehensible, of course, but I do kind of get where a person might say "I used to be transgendered, now I'm not." I can also understand where a person might say "I am transgendered, I always was, and I always will be." I don't see either as necessarily more true than the other, because they're both heavily dependent on a personal POV. The only issue I really take with the HBS stuff is that they seem to correlate it with a disease model. "I was transgendered, but the doctor cured me", like it was an infection, or a wound, and proper medical treatment fixed everything right up. Well, that and the author of the link you posted apparently has some real issues with psychiatry. Tom Cruise as any kind of authority on, well, anything?

So I guess I'm not clear on why there are such strong feelings on the issue.  

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

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by: QueerInSoCal @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:57:57 PM CDT

Having met Autumn personally,

  I can tell you she is a great looking gal.  She is honest as well as forthright. Even though she felt like she was running behind, time wise, we got to spend 1 1/2 hour together just shooting the breeze.

 These personal attacks are not needed, they seem to me to be a form of jealousy. Keep up the great work Autumn,

HUGGS, The HappyCat.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 15:58:22 PM CDT

Excellent and Education Post

Autumn,

This was an eye opener for me and one reason the Blend is such an important stop for me every day.  I appreciate your straightforward coverage of difficult issues and your insistence on respect for people who may be especially vulnerable to attack by hate mongerers.  

I need to reread this a few times. But I wanted to thank you.

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by: PghLesbian @ Mon Apr 27, 2009 at 16:31:19 PM CDT