BlackNews.com vs. The Gay Menace: An Open Letter to Gwen

I feel compelled to add ...

... that I've kept my "follow" subscription to BlackVoices on Twitter, and am loving what I learn from that site.  FYI.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:35:20 PM CDT

What just entered my mind

when I skimmed through that would shock you. That women is ignorant, no, she's ig'nant.

Uh, red, that's John Lewis and not Joe Lewis.

I will respond to this...Miss Thang later, I gotta work.

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:44:09 PM CDT

Yikes ... embarrassment

I'm changing it this minute.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:46:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I wanna go Perez Hilton on this....

Our hypersexual culture has already led to an increase in teen and pre-teen sexual activity, sexually transmitted diseases, child pornography, child abandonment, pedophilia and the posting of nude images of themselves on the Internet by adolescents. The jury is still out on the long-term effects of popular culture's promotion of homosexuality on children and teens. I suspect that, unfortunately, the end result will be an increase in homosexual behavior. As with advertising, an individual who is repeatedly exposed to visual images is more likely to adopt the behavior he/she sees. '

Dumb ghetto ass "churched" black folks have been scapegoating gay men generally and black gay men specifically for shit like this.

I need to step away from this thread now, smoke a cigarette, and calm down or y'all will think that I am really a racist.

I'm serious.

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 13:53:38 PM CDT

"Go Perez"

I love that "go Perez Hilton" has replaced "go postal" in the modern gay vernacular, or at least here on the Blend.

And yeah, I got mad too.  I usually don't write these long, long letters in response to ignorant screeds I see.  But this one provoked a response.

But yes ... if you think you need to calm down before "going Perez" on Gwen, that's probably a good idea.  But once you respond, I'd love to see what you wrote.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 14:01:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Now if I were to "go Detroit" on Gwen

I'd be totally wrong.

(For the record, I was born and raised in Detroit. And Detroit has always had a reputation for being...well, rough. I used that phrase with my Mom once and she understood what I meant but she still didn't think it was a nice thing to say.)

 

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 14:07:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

W.T.F!

Oh hell to the No. You knwo I thnk its actually time for black gay people to speak on on this mess 'cause its absolute bull...

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by: saywhat? @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 14:33:52 PM CDT

I swear

I typed in some stuff that made me sound like a Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan. But I deleted it.  

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 14:37:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, not that...

But I get so tired of these folks having to respond and then white gay people responding and saying the wrong shit (like all white people do half the damn time .. no offense y'all but y'all do) when WE are here and can do it our damn selves. Put her and her old church hairdo havin ass on blast.

M'kay.

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by: saywhat? @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 14:54:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I mean I erased it

but did I go there? Oh, yes I did.

And besides, who do you think did that heifer's "old church Hairdo havin ass?" And had her jumping up and down praising the Lord when he or she hit (and held) that note in a gospel song? Hell, who preached her sermon?

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:00:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You know!

I get so tired of these "I don't care if you're gay but its a sin" BS coming from all these single- het unmaried single mothers. 'Cause its like, "Um... you know in that book you love so much, they stoned women like you... I'm not sayin but I'm just sayin'..."

And besides, those churches of full of skanks (straight and gay) lookin' for attention from whoever has it, so I hate when these fools somehow wanna claim the moral superiority.

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by: saywhat? @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:08:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And I've said many times

the black church doesn't function too much differently than a gay bar, really.

The church is every bit the meat market that a gay bar is, that's for sure.

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:15:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh God,

For real, sisters are on a hunt up in those churches...

But the irnoy is that if you want a man who isn't gay, the Black Church is the LAST place you want to be!!

THE ABSOLUTE LAST.

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by: saywhat? @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:20:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Honey, those sistahs

don't care. They can CHANGE you, remember?

And some of those dumb queens fall for it! I'll never forget how loud I laughed when the nelliest queen in the world told me (and a few others) that she was getting married. To a woman. (they broke it off!)

Damn, I almost feel guilty talking like this here in Pam's place. But...folks just don't know the anger that comes up with a post like this. I love and respect the black church for all that it's done but on shit like this, it is at the height of utter hypocrisy.

I mean, I've been cruised in front of churches.

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:29:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I plan to post on this as well

I couldn't believe what I was reading. Props to you red7eric, that was a bullsh*t-laden column and your letter was spot-on.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 15:46:35 PM CDT

Pam

my outburst was wrong. I apologize. When I read this I went from 0 to rage.

Black LGBT's need to speak up, though, about this kind of complete and total disrespect from straight black folks. I really don't mind it when white LGBT's speak up but like saywhat? said, some of them can say some ignorant sh*t sometimes (again, no offense) even when they are in the right.
 

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 16:00:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That may be true at times

but hey, give us at least the credit for trying to speak-up and stand with you, instead of having you stand there all by yourself and be the only voice speaking.

Hopefully most of us, though, will appreciate being told when we've said something ignorant (depending upon how the message is delivered, I'm sure) and will learn from what you have to say.

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by: JWSwift @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 17:46:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey, I said I didn't mind it.

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 18:13:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks, Pam.

A brief update ... Miz Gwen actually wrote me back.  Among her points, she noted that she would have loved to cite her sources but her column was already too long, the Bible never endorsed slavery, and that Al Sharpton and John Lewis are only pro-gay because they are being "politically correct."

But, I do have to give her credit for reading my letter in its entirety, and writing her rebuttal in a reasoned way.

What struck me as I wrote my response was that there's likely much that we agree on, Gwen and I.  Principally, she's frightened of the state trying to exercise control over her faith tradition.  Likewise, I'm frightened of her faith tradition trying to exercise control over the state.  So can't we agree that both should go to their separate corners and leave each other alone?  Like ... completely and utterly alone?

Anyway, it's just a thought.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 16:25:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

WTF!

OK, I have to write her myself...

(three breaths)

Not only do I think her religious faith tradition should not be exercising control over the state, I also think that her religious faith should not be exercising control over my race and culture to the exclusion of everything else.

 

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 16:30:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've always wondered ...

... about the strength of Christianity in the Black community - and I almost asked Gwen about it, but I chickened out.

The way I see it (from an admittedly Fundamentalist Agnostic perspective) ... Africans were forced onto slave ships against their will, sold into bondage, beaten, raped, killed with impunity, and converted to Christianity by a racist society who saw them as sub-human.

These days, we recognize slavery for the evil that it is (even though slaves still enter the US every day in the form of sex trafficking and even though we still don't teach children about the actual horrors of slavery nearly enough) ... but still, this religion that slaves were forced to adopt at the expense of every scrap of their former culture is embraced with a fervor that always seemed ... counter-intuitive.  To me.  Can anyone explain?

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 16:42:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Book of Exodus

and the social gospel of Jesus was always emphasized. That, with the hope of eternal (and a slave free) afterlife, to put it simply.

That and, like I said, the black church is as much of a safe haven as a gay bar. And for many of the same reasons.

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 16:49:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Aside from what kevin said, in some / many cases

the church fought on the side of the oppressed.

As with most human things, there is both good and bad. The "muscular Christianity" that gets so much attention nowadays is not the only form of Christianity that ever existed.

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by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 02:41:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's as wrong as it can be.

The German christer cults supported the Nazi's and their holocaust overwhelmingly. There were only a dozen or so brave exceptions.

The southern baptists were synonymous with the KKK for decades.

Roman christer priests have raped children for centuries.

There are an infinitesimally small minority of christer cults and individuals that 'fight on the side of the oppressed'. The rest, without exception are our enemies.

Religion is humankinds worst self-inflicted wound.

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

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by: donal1944 @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 at 00:52:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

LOL

The bible NEVER endorsed slavery?  Really???  WTF

And, apparently both John Lewis and Al Sharpton have confessed their true feelings on the topic to Gwen.  What source did she cite for this?  Did she say something like, really, they told me so... honest....

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by: timNC @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:30:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

upon second thought

maybe Gwen's theory about slavery in the bible is that the slavery talked about in the bible isn't the same as that which was practiced in the U.S.  But, homosexuality in the bible is absolutely the same as we know it today.

Some Christians can convince themselves of anything.

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by: timNC @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 20:03:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Gwen on Slavery

Gwen's statement (I feel squirrelly about cutting and pasting, as it was a note addressed to me) basically said that all of the Bible's statements about slavery were not endorsing the practice, but rather admonishing slaves to love their masters, akin to Jesus' teaching that when struck, one should turn the other cheek.

In my response to her response, I simply pointed out that the Bible talks about slavery a lot more than it discusses sex acts between men (does the Bible ever talk about lesbian sex?), never condemns it as an evil institution, and is yet held up by a third of the world's population as the final word on morality.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:01:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

just love their masters, huh???

Not that I've read it in detail, but as I recall the Bible talks about it being a good idea to sell your daughter INTO slavery.  And, it says slavery is OK, as long as you only enslave people from different nations.

So, her assertion that the bible only talks about loving your master is a wee bit off the mark.  PERIOD

And, on the homosexual portion, it has been well documented that the bible's VERY FEW discussions of homosexuality are NOT talking about what we know of as homosexuality today.  And, I'm sure we could provide the data to back that up, where she doesn't bother.

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by: timNC @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:29:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

red7eric on one hand

I really wish I hadn't read this (becuase I am about to explode). On the other hand I wish you had allowed me to respond to this woman.

So when that bad ass Nat Turner went around shootin' up folks because he was tired of that shit, he wasn't being a good Christian.

When Harriet Tubman threatened to shoot and kill any slave that she helped to escape because of the possibility that wanted to go back to their masters I guess she wasn't a good Christian.

When Frederick Douglass learned to read and thereby learned just how miserable his condition was he wasn't a good Christian.

I distinctly remember that when King and Rustin statred the Montgomery bus boycott, they did not get all that much support from other black ministers. I guess Dr. King wasn't a good Christian either.

And I guess I am not supposed to be angry about the gay bashings (4) that I have gone through in African American communities because those thugs that women like her and her ilk raised were just being good little Christian boys and performing God's will in maybe, just maybe, getting rid of another sodomite. But I'm supposed to turn the other cheek.

Man, I can't write anymore. I'll get banned. Let me calm down

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:30:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Random questions and comments.

Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination.  The details are different, the reality is the same.  All people who are discriminated against have being discriminated against in common.

But how are we defining "intergenerational discrimination"?  What I would think it is definitely affects the LGBT community, but I don't think I've heard this phrase before.

Ten years ago was 1999.  She says we weren't interested in marriage equality in 1999?  Seriously?  Because I quite clearly remember that we were and had been for years at that point.

I think orientation is hardwired, too, but if it was a choice, like religion is, that's no argument for discrimination.  And who in their right mind thinks that rape makes you crave your rapist?  How sick do you have to be to think that?

I know for a fact that a lot more than only three sexual orientations exist -- or maybe it's more accurate to say a lot more than only three ways to express your sexual identity exists -- so I think the "bisexual problem" (a questionable name) is a lot bigger than that.

And of course the bible doesn't hate the gays, lady.  And if it did, so what?  Keep your hatred to yourself, thanks.

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by: diablorobotico @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 17:48:03 PM CDT

I wrote her a letter. Do you think she will answer it?

I ask that question because I notice that black folks don't even like to acknowledge lgbts of color. Once when I wrote someone a letter about their nonsense, I was accused of not actually being black. Anywho, here is what I said. Pardon but I wrote it quickly:

Ms. Richardson,

I read your piece and have to totally disagree with it.

For the record, I am a gay man of color. And I found your column lacking because it is so typical in the black community not to address the fact that gays and lesbians of color exist. Your piece is inaccurate on so many levels but mostly on the point that it divides the gay community and the black community in two different camps forgetting those of us in the middle such as:

Bayard Rustin - an open and out advisor to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. who was the coordinator of the 1963 March on Washington, Lorraine Hansberry, Nell Carter, Congresswoman Barbara Jordan, actor Paul Winfield,and so many others.

While I respect your beliefs, I feel you took a simplistic view that was not backed up by any facts. This game of "whose pain is worse" is one that is unworthy of any group of people. Let me put it like this:

Emmett Till was a young black man who was murdered in the 1950s for supposedly whistling at a white woman .

In 2003, an African-American lesbian, Sakia Gunn, was stabbed to death by a black man after she told him of her orientation in an attempt to push away his advances.

Now you tell me, did Gunn's mother cry differently from Till's mother. Is her pain any different?

It doesn't matter who suffers the most when one looks at why the suffering happens. A gay or lesbian who is deprived of their rights is no different than a heterosexual black woman whose self esteem is crushed because some ignorant fool tells her that she doesn't fit HIS idea of beauty.

Egotism, self-righteousness and unfortunately the tendency to place ourselves on a pedestal is not color blind nor is it specific to one gender or orientation.

Please keep all of that in mind. I am sure you know of some gays and lesbians of color and you probably think of them as friends.

Please think of them before the next time you feel the need to make such baseless accusations against the gay community.

Thank you

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 17:54:50 PM CDT

I hope she will.

In her response to me, she did not say anything specific about gay and lesbian POCs; I'd be very interested in what she had to say to your very focused argument.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:05:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

She answered my letter

She answered my letter and was very polite although:

a. she really didn't answer any of my points, except for saying that she feels that Sakia Gunn's killer should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law

b. she does not have any close gay friends.

I suggested to her in a nice way that she get to know us so that she can educate herself on exactly who we are.

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:04:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

At this point, call them what they are...

BIGOTS.  She's a bigot.  I don't care what color her skin is, what church she goes to, or what "facts" she can lay out.  Writing a long letter in response to her may do the LGBT community some good, but the only thing these bigots will respond to, the only thing that actually rings true, is calling them what they are: B-I-G-O-T-S.

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by: Bruno @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 18:04:05 PM CDT

B-I-G-O-T-S

Well, from my few exchanges with Ms. Richardson, I'm pretty sure that calling her a "bigot" would not move her one iota.

She feels the pain of her community very keenly, and as such, it is inconceivable that she would ever consider herself to be bigoted.  We may disagree with her assessment, but calling her a "bigot" wouldn't ring true with her at all.

She thinks homosexuality is a sin, like adultery.  To her, it's a choice.  Never mind that she didn't choose heterosexuality - (and who knows, perhaps she did ... that would explain a lot, actually) - to her "gay" is something you do, not something you are.

I hope she hears from a good number of LGBT people in response to her column, and I hope that at least a few opt to tell her their stories, in detail.  I bet she'll read them.  I don't know if it will cause her to do a 180 (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't; she seems rather set in her opinion) - but I'm 90% sure she'd read them.  Which is something.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:16:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

In the short term...

you may be right.  I'm not saying the ultimate goal here is to convince Gwen to think of herself as a bigot.  It's for her to realize that she can't without repercussion say these things WITHOUT being labeled close-minded, one-sided, hence, a bigot.

You can't "argue" the points with a bigot as eloquently as has been done in these letters and expect that approach to change her mind either.  Perhaps nothing will.  But at least she should know that her actions bear consequences, sometimes stern ones.

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by: Bruno @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:54:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Something to send to Gwen

Here's a link to the Des Moines Register's photo files from Monday's scenes at County courthouses. There's even some gay POC getting married - to each other! GASP!! Perhaps seeing what real gay people look like, and that not all of them resemble the cast of QAF (white, wealthy, able-bodied cisgendered male), will do something delicious to her brain.

http://www.desmoinesregister.c...

**BIG HUGS to kevin**

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 18:07:23 PM CDT

Even better...here are the photos of a new, ecstatic IOWA Family.

Kentaindra Scarver and Veronica Spann.

 

......and

Briana Davis, 14, holds her brother, Aedaughn Spann, two months, as their parents, Kentaindra Scarver Veronica Spann, wait to get married.

Lovely new, happy family.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:20:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I sent pics to Gwen.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:47:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Des Moines Register story

Ketaindra and Veronica's story.

The road to the altar had not been easy for Veronica Spann and Kentaindra Scarver.

The Dubuque couple have had to defend their sexuality not only to strangers, but also to family.

"We've been through the storm," Scarver said.

On Monday, the clouds disappeared as they looked into each others eyes and said, "I do."

Absolutely beautiful. I would love to interview these two ladies.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 02:57:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

As a spectator in this tennis match

As a white straight person (hey... what are you doing on this forum?) I'm calmly on the sidelines here, but think the response to Gwen was well done.  

Whenever you start to characterize a groups' behavior, you usually are doing yourself and the group a disfavor.

I have a gay friend who once made a joke about his manager, not knowing that my friend was gay, referred to a gay bar that was doing very well and said, "Gosh, I had no idea there were so many of THOSE people living in my town."  

This same friend is well...  not a blatant racist... perhaps a latant racist.  It comes out from time to time and the way I always try to make him aware of what he is doing and think about how it feels to be categorized and dismissed is to remind him, "gosh do you really feel THEY, THOSE people, are responsible for..."

Funny thing is, sometimes even when I call him on it, he just doesn't see it.  

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by: BookMama @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:03:06 PM CDT

Here's my letter

I kept it short and sweet.

Ms. Richardson,

I am sure that you have received a number of e-mails on your posting today, so I will keep what I have to say very brief.

As a gay man who also happens to be African American I find your statements to highly offensive, ignorant, and sad.

Sad because like you and your ancestors, my ancestors were enslaved and suffered from slavery, racial discrimination, and Jim Crow also.

Sad and angry because your article has the effect of equating me with a sexual predator and a pedophile. I am none of those things, nor have I ever been subjected to sexual abuse.

Sad and angry because your letter has had the effect of insulting all of the black (and white) folks who fought for African American equality and contributed to African American culture. Go back and read the literature of the Harlem Renaissance or James Baldwin. Go back and read about Bayard Rustin, who himself said that gay civil rights was the next civil rights movement.

But what I really want to do is to show the the phrases in the Bible that directly talk about slavery.

Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. (1Tim. 6:1-5)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. (Eph. 6:5-6)

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2:9-10)

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval. (1Pet. 2:18-29)

These verses were only some of the verses used enslave, subjugate, and even murder African Americans with impunity. There are more. Read your Bible.

And do know that it is these exact same religious denominations which seek to subjugate and dishonor my humanity as a gay man and, yes, as an African American.

In short...just remember the dogs that you and many in the African American religious community are choosing to lie with. Don't be surprised if you come out with more than a few fleas.

Respectfully,

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:31:02 PM CDT

Thanks, kevinchi, that saves the rest of us the trouble

Of course slavery was normal in Hebrew Testament times. Although Jews could not enslave other Jews according to their law, they could (and did) enslave people from other tribes/nations. 1 Tim. and other Pauline/ pseudo-Pauline verses could be counted as an endorsement, since it didn't tell believers to free their slaves, just to avoid abusing them.

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by: NancyP @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 20:08:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Makes me ITCH.... hope it does her, too.

Way to go k.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:02:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fine work, Eric.

I don't think I'd have bothered writing her, and certainly not at such length.  

I tend to avoid discussions of race here and elsewhere, precisely because I know that Kevin and the others wouldn't hesitate to tell me how clueless I am.  (Admittedly so.)  I tend to learn a lot by reading others' comments and try not to venture into territory where I know I could easily make a fool of myself or have my motives and intentions misconstrued.  

Some years ago I got severely raked over the coals, called a racist, etc., for writing an unfavorable review of a novel call Black Girl in Paris by a writer called Shay Youngblood.  Race wasn't an issue in the novel, and I didn't address it at all in the review, but that didn't seem to make much difference.  The experience left me gun shy, to say the least.

So I admire your fortitude in writing this--and in posting it here.  But then you deal with these issues professionally.  I am, at best, a "well-meaning amateur."

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:34:26 PM CDT

Q Scribe don't

avoid discussions on race simply because you're clueless.

We're at home here, if something you say needs to be "tweaked" or placed in context, we'll tell you (you are right about us not being hesitant to tell you).

Besides, you see how close to the line I skirted in some of my posts on this thread today.

You being in the conversation is a really necessary component to overcoming stuff like this.    

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:47:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

For this relief, much thanks.

But did you have to remind me so forcefully that I don't have a clue? ;)

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 22:32:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

LMAO

Well, I'm a little hot (OK, a lot hot) tonight behind this post, so I didn't mean to be so abrasive about it.

And to be honest about it, sometimes I don't have a clue either. :)

---

by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 23:18:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

But what

are friends FOR?? ;)

Love ya hon.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 10:58:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks, Q.

I'm actually surprised I did write to her, and at such length.  I think I did it because it was such a surprise to me; here I thought I'd be receiving all these friendly "tweets" from a big community of diversity professionals, only to have THAT land on my ... TweetDeck (I've only been at this a week, but I'm already learning the lingo!).  Just last week, right here at the Blend, I opined that black homophobia isn't any worse than white homophobia - and I believe that ... but my armor was down, so this column sorta hit me right between the eyes.

Thanks for your kind words; I appreciate it.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

---

by: red7eric @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:54:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh my, ADF news alert has picked up on Gwen and her column.

I forgot they ck the Blend often.
Eric, you started something and that's a good thing.

http://www.alliancealert.org/t...

---

by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 19:57:20 PM CDT

Great response

Your response to this piece of garbage is remarkably restrained.  You should be applauded for your professionalism.

---

by: wolfbane @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 20:20:25 PM CDT

Responses to My Column

I had an interesting exchange with Eric regarding my column and have read the remarks posted here. I did expect the tone of many of the responses that were posted, with personal attacks and insults. That is par for the course. However, I did want to correct a few misstatements made about my remarks on today's culture.

I never equated any gay individual, or gay people in general with being sexual predators.  My point was that with our "hypersexual" culture (not homosexual), we have seen an increase in adolescent sexual activity, pedophilia, etc.  This is certainly true and the statistics support it.  My concern is that the constant promotion of homosexuality will only add to that and make it worse.  Teenagers really are not equipped to make good sexual choices and the end results are the broken lives of these teens as well as the unwanted offspring that ensue.

I received many e-mails today from supportive people telling me I was brave to take a stand.  I don't feel particularly brave, just compelled to stand up for the majority.

Gwen Richardson

---

by: gwenr @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:03:19 PM CDT

Gwen, since you've joined the Blend to post

I would like to ask you a question: what about the faith communities, equally committed to their beliefs, that want to marry same-sex couples? The presumption of many of the anti-marriage equality crowd is that all religious people feel the same way you do about religious or civil marriage.

You should be concerned about the state interfering with your faith if you give the government the power to dole out civil rights or affect policy solely on the majority's religious beliefs. That would mean atheists, Jews, and Wiccans, for example should have to cleave to laws based on not just Christianity, but one particular brand of it that you agree with.

This is exactly why we have separation of church and state. Religion has been the cause of countless deaths and wars because each side presumes it is right, and that the deity they believe in supports their point of view, including the act of killing someone of a different faith.

What we're saying is you need to expand your worldview, because it is incredibly narrow, and neglects the fact that while you may be in "the majority" in one instance, you may not be in another. The idea that mob rule should determine justice, particularly in the name of faith and tradition, is what resulted in many black men swinging by their neck  from a rope tied to a tree back in the day.

I urge you to meet with black LGBTs, for instance, to hear how much pain the anti-gay religious black community and its homophobic leadership has caused them. The shame and blame, the suicides, the feeling that they must remain in the closet for fear of losing their social network -- how does this represent loving Christianity?

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:33:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So you continue ...

... to put pedophilia close to homosexuality?

"I never equated any gay individual, or gay people in general with being sexual predators."

You did and hereby you do it again.

"This is certainly true and the statistics support it."

Then name these statistics.

"constant promotion of homosexuality"

Homosexuality can't be promoted, it's not chosen. You can reiterate that as often as you want to, it won't become true.

"Teenagers really are not equipped to make good sexual choices and the end results are the broken lives of these teens as well as the unwanted offspring that ensue."

Gay relationships don't lead to unwanted offspring. Do you suggest to lie to teenagers? Do you suggest not to help LGBT teenagers?

PS: I don't rated you as troll because I think you just don't understand what you are talking about.

---

by: Chris From Old Europe @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:35:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And gwen can you please

review with us what you told to red7eric as to The Bible's statements on slavery. That was the substance of letter and it's really important because the same religious forces that have funded many of thes anti-marriage equality amendments (The Catholic Church, the Mormons, evangelicals/Southern Baptists) were also the forces behind the slavery and subjugation of African Americans.

---

by: kevinchi @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:42:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mrs. Richardson,

  I am a single parent with two teenage daughters, ages 13 and 17.  I talk to my children and educate them on all aspects of sexuality.  I am also a transsexual who had her GRS when they were 10 and 14.  Trying to blame the talk of equality for homosexuals will increase sexual activity is plain foolish.  

 Marriage Equality for Gay and Lesbian couples would have no effect on weather kids have sex or not.  Education starts at the home.  And teaching children about all aspects of sexuality should start at home as well.  And guess what, both my daughters are still virgins.

 Shame on you for trying to place blame on the LGBT community.  

 PS, you might want to study civics.  Our US Constitution is written to protect minorities from the tyrannical power of a majority.

 And a side note as well.  I am a white girl, both my parents are white.  My father who was a member of the Chicago Civil Defense stood up for the rights of African-American people.  He felt very strong that ALL people should be treated equally.  He stood firm on his position even though many people treated him like garbage.  He also stood strong for the Civil Rights of LGBT people as well.  If he was still alive, I am sure he would stand in front of you, look you straight in the eyes and tell you, "Discrimination is Discrimination, and it is WRONG."  

 

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 21:55:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Gwen, might I offer a suggestion

Instead of focusing on what you think are personal attacks, look at why things are being said. Look behind our words and above all pay attention to the pictures. You did unfairly villify an entire group of people the same way that racists have villified African-Americans.

And many of those people like myself are African-Americans. Get to know us before you start spinning conspiracy theories.

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 22:32:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here is my second letter I wrote,

Mrs. Richardson,
 You posted a comment on Pam's House Blend.  Saying that you where insulted at personally attacked.

I had an interesting exchange with Eric regarding my column and have read the remarks posted here. I did expect the tone of many of the responses that were posted, with personal attacks and insults. That is par for the course. However, I did want to correct a few misstatements made about my remarks on today's culture.

 I have read through the comments, and all I have seen is you are a Bigot and Ignorant.  In one exchange you admit that you don't have any gay friends.  That would explain the Ignorant part.  As for a being called a Bigot.  Your assumptions that the discussion of Same-sex Marriage will cause more teens to engage in sexual activity pretty much sums that up as well.

What I have found reading a few of your articles, you have a zero understanding of LGBT people.  Your article attacks the LGBT community as if there is some sort of hidden agenda.  I know those who oppose equality for LGBT people, groups like the AFA (American Family Association),  FRC (Family Research Council)  and FotF(Focus on the Family) claim we, the LGBT live by something called the "Homosexual Agenda".

I can tell you that there is no such thing as the "Homosexual Agenda."  Or if there is, it has been kept hidden from ever homosexual I know.  I am willing to say, if you were to post a diary at Pam's House Blend and ask the people there to post what their families are all about, many would respond.  And you would be surprised.  Many have partners that they love who have been together for 10,20, 30 or more years.  Being denied the rights that come with Civil Marriage.  You might here about a Same-Sex Couple that had economic problems because they were fired for no other reason except they are gay.  You might read about how a loved one was kept out of the hospital because they weren't married.  

I am sure you will hear all sort of true stories.  Stories that may have a lot in common with those of heterosexual couples as well as the discrimination we face for being different.  

As for my story, I can give you a brief for now.

   As you know I am white as are both of my parents.  My father was in the Civil Defense in Chicago Ill.  I grew up with everyone believing I was a boy, but always felt something wasn't right.  My parents moved to Florida when I was 5.  My parents both worked, my Father for the US Postal Service.  My mother became an office manager for a carpet manufacturing company.  I was picked on in school because I just couldn't fit in with any crowd.  In the 9th grade, I found a group I could fit in with.  The Ku Klux Klan.  Yes, as a white kid it was easy to fit in, all you had to do was hate other people.  I was with them for 8 months, until my father found out.  That is when he read me the riot act and informed me of all he did back n the early 1960s as part of the Chicago Civil Defense up until 1968 when I was 2 years old.  I can tell you that it was easy to be part of a group that hates, they all use fear tactics to get you to join in.  I know first hand what it was like to be at a KKK rally and watch the lighting of the cross in the name of Jesus.   I am also thankful that I had a father that did catch me being part of that hate group and removed me from it.  But not only did he do that, I was introduced to many African-American people he worked with at the Post Office.  I had to shake there hands.  I was also told by my father to truly find a reason why to hate them.  I couldn't, face to face they were human, just like me.  I was shown pictures of their families, wives, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, etc.  I felt so ashamed of the group I decided to join, but it was a group I could fit into because it was easy to hate people I didn't know.

As a woman trapped inside a man's body, I tried to fit in else where.  Funny thing looking back.  Being a criminal is an easy place to fit in, all you had to do was steel something.  Lucky for me, I failed at stealing.  I was caught the first time trying to steal a carton of cigarettes from a grocery store.  

Age 17, I dropped out of High School as I couldn't take the bullying I went through.  I met a teacher from Seminole Community College.  I was given the chance at an education where I would be bullied, it was called adult high school.   Still facing my internal problems, I moved on with life never feeling right.  I was married, and then divorced 5 months later.  2 years after that I married again when my first daughter was 2 years old.  Figured being married with a daughter would change the way I felt inside, it didn't.  2 years after marriage, we had another daughter, did help.  I was more confused then ever.  Things just didn't jive.   I buried myself in work to support my family, but wasn't part of it because of my confliction.  A psychologist helped me figure out the hows and whys. I was set free to be me at the risk of losing those I loved because I was so different.  I was called a freak, thing, it.  The same hate that I was taught to dish out when I was a member of the KKK.  

 The thing is, my daughters, my mother and father, my sister and brother in law, got to see the true me, the woman that I am today.  A loving and caring parent, and most of all I finally smile.  I am not going to share old pictures with you, but one thing many noticed, I never smiled, that is because I existed, and existing is not living.

 Assuming or Blaming the LGBT community for the children today being more sexually active is plain wrong, and it wont solve the problem of teenagers engaging in sexual activity.  Education starts at home, and that includes listening to your children.  It takes love to build a family, even if that family is different from the text book, if there is love it is a family.

Sincerely,

------------------------------------

I hope she reads them and responds.  I will share if she does.  

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Tue Apr 28, 2009 at 23:42:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Note to Gwen:

Yes, there IS in fact a homosexual agenda.  It is called the United States Constitution, with its guarantee of equal justice under law for all American citizens. I suppose there is a slight chance you may be familiar with this document. It is the same one on which black civil rights are based, not to mention the rights of women.  You can fabricate all the excuses you want to for why we should remain second-class citizens (and I'm sure you will).  But the Constitution remains, despite your bigotry, and we will not stop or even slow down in our attempts to see that we gain a full, equal share in the American dream.

As many have said before me: GET USED TO IT.  You are on the wrong side of the historical process that has seen constitutional equality extended to one group after another.  You really need to take some time to adjust to the fact that your brand of shrill bigotry is being rendered increasingly irrelevant.  Which is what  it deserves.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

---

by: QScribe @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 11:03:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Promoting" homosexuality. Grrrrr ...

Gwen -  When we talk openly about our lives just as straights talk about theirs, and when we advocate for the same civil rights that straights have, we are often accused of "promoting" homosexuality.  Let's be clear - promoting homosexuality would be, say, a highway billboard announcing, "Go GAY!  All of the fun, none of the babies!"  Or a Gap ad, "Go GAY!  Double your wardrobe!"  Or in Car & Driver, "Go LESBIAN!  Feel the fear and mystery of motorized engines turn to joy and intuitive understanding!"  In truth, no one is promoting LGBT orientations.  Please say what we are really doing - conducting open discussions without shame, and advocating for equal civil rights.  That is what actually bothers so many people - that we are tossing aside our false, assigned shame and daring to speak and behave like full human beings.  Kinda uppity of us.

But to your point, I believe it is true that open discussion of homosexuality may lead to earlier romantic and sexual relationships - for LGBTs.  (But it doesn't make sense to me that these discussions would affect straight kids' dating/sexual behavior.)  

I was profoundly shut down in high school and often thought of suicide.  High school was a very dangerous environment - peer rejection, bullying, assault, battery, and worse were part of the landscape.  I was lucky to have one friend, and I kept to myself most of the time.  In a more accepting, nurturing environment, instead of coming out in college at age 23 and dating and losing my virginity, I might have met someone in high school and taken him to the prom.  And I might have started to develop the same social skills that my straight peers were developing - at the same time.  

(Have to say here that the young LGBT's pushing the envelope in high school are heroes in every sense.  They are saving their own lives, and the lives of those still too terrified to live their own.  And kudos to the Gay-Straight Alliance student groups too.  In the 70's, I never even dreamed such chutzpah and support could exist.)

Open discussion will encourage more LGBTs to accept their natural orientations sooner, and they will be more apt to live and share their lives openly, and fewer LGBT kids will take their own lives.  So at first, it will appear that there are more of us percentage-wise than there used to be.  But the actual truth is that there will no longer be a need for us to live the quiet, secret, painful, desperate lives that many older generations felt were their only choice.

Bob

---

by: 555catnap @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 00:15:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I called it existing,

 making it day by day, wishing my life would end.  I only began living when I didn't have to hide.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 00:44:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you for taking the time...

to come here and address us personally, I do really respect that.

I still stand by what I said and think you are a bigot, though.  It is a true sign of bigotry to claim a prior expectation of honest reactions to your own distortions and lies, boil them down to retaliation, and then not address the facts presented in rebuttal to your own.  But perhaps you're willing to go a little further at a later date.

---

by: Bruno @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 00:59:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Particularly brave"?

And what, precisely, were you taking a stand on? I'm not quite sure what is so brave about continuing to vilify and spread lies about people you don't know, don't care to know, and wouldn't recognize if you walked by on the street. Exactly what did you take a stand against? American citizens who want the same rights as everyone else? That's not courage. That's pandering to the lowest common denominator.

If you want to see courage, talk to our own Autumn Sandeen, a twenty year Navy veteran who fought in the Gulf War, and risks her life every day by being an out, public transsexual woman. You should meet kevinichi, who is shunned by his own black family for daring to be gay and out of the closet, but refusing to give up on them. You should meet our very own blogmistress, Pam, a gay woman of color living in North Carolina, in an interracial marriage, who is a public face of the progressive, LGBT movement. For many of us here, waking up every day and walking out the door is an act of courage, knowing that in many states we face being fired from our jobs and kicked out of our homes for being gay,

You're right. You're not particularly brave. You're just another bigot playing oppression olympics with her skin color and lifting herself up by walking on the backs of others.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 01:41:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pam, Thank you for your question

After reading the postings here, I don't believe it would be constructive to have an exchange of ideas.  My mind is not going to be changed and, obviously, yours will not either.  The only reason I even posted here is that I wanted to correct the record on something that I wrote, which did little good since my statement was still mischaracterized.

I will continue to be an observer, and occasional commentator, on this issue and I am sure you will too.  We are all entitled to free speech in this country and I'm merely exercising my right to express my opinion, even if some disagree.  I will not be adding further posts.  Be blessed.

---

by: gwenr @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 10:59:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Religion is the enemy.

The three abrahamic cult groups, judaic, christer and islamic have been our enemies for millennia, using our differentness as an excuse to steal from us, harass and even murder us.

Some of the individual cults in these groups are liberal bigots and some are conservative bigots. It makes precious little difference. Virtually all of them consciously serve a society and state dominated by the looter rich. Their role is to justify and empower anti-GLBT bigotry, misogyny and racism to make it easier for the looter rich to divide and conquer.

We won't solve this problem by talking to them or trying to educate them. Like all charlatans, cult leaders are in it for money and power, just like the politicians who pander to them. They're scam artists of the worst kind.

Real change, that is to say fundamental, revolutionary changes in American society is the only answer to their century's long cruelty towards us. We can begin to move in that direction by going on the offensive.

1) We should fight for the total elimination of tax breaks for the cults.

2) We should fight for the end of unconstitutional gifts to cult leaders in the form of fake 'faith based' grants.

3) We should fight for the prosecution of cult bigots who call for violence as well as prosecuting them as accomplices when violence occurs.

4) We should fight to close their schools be closed and reopened under the control of secularists and insist that unscientific teaching and all forms of bigotry be forbidden in schools.

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

---

by: donal1944 @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 03:48:49 AM CDT

Fundamentalism is the enemy

Including fundamentalism from atheists like you.

Thought control is the enemy, including by atheists like you.

---

by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 06:39:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

When atheists fight us tooth and nail

Then you can bitch about atheists. I personally have never seen or heard of an atheist group that believes it has a moral duty to see us all oppressed, jailed, deported, or killed.

Religion IS our enemy. To believe otherwise is self-delusion.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 10:34:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

donal's point 4

is doing exactly what religious believers claim that atheists want to do. Limit religious freedom.

The irony to fundamentalist atheists talking about restricting all forms of bigotry is that fundamentalist atheist are themselves being bigots when they want to restrict religions belief.

I am not challenging atheists in general.

I am challenging the fundamentalist atheists, the New Atheists who believe that they have all the answers, who like the fundamentalist religious believers, believe that it is acceptable to engage in thought control, in limiting freedom of expression, in limiting freedom of belief, as long as those acts are done in a good cause.

I am challenging the fundamentalist atheists, who like the fundamentalist Christians, and the fundamentalist Muslims, read (certain sections of) the Bible or the Quran in a fundamentalist manner. This is usually most commonly applied to the Quran.

I am challenging the fundamentalist atheists who in their willingness to engage in thought control, in limiting freedom of expression, in limiting freedom of belief, have become the very people they are fighting.

It might interest you to know that in the former USSR, the communist authorities were no friends to GLBTs. GLBTs in the USSR had no better lives than in the West. Not too long ago, there was a thread here about gay composers. I didn't post this there, because it is only tangentially related, but, the communist authorities tried to cover up that Tchaikovsky was gay. This was regarded as patently ridiculous among Russian musicians. Gay pianists such as the pianist Youri Egorov had to repress themselves and hide: his homosexuality was a major reason why Egorov defected.

Cuba hasn't exactly been friendly to GLBTs either.

And in general, socialism and communism has a very very mixed record on GLBT issues.

I suggest you read Eric Hobsbawm's book on revolutions: Revolutionaries. Specifically, the chapter on revolutions and sex.

Religion isn't the enemy. Religion is just a tool in the hands of those who believe that they have a right to control thought, to control gender identity, to control gender expression. Take it away and they will find another tool.

The enemy are those who believe that they have a right to control thought, and to control expression.

---

by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 14:27:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm an atheist.

You can see the statement of my beliefs here:

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~e...

I have no desire to stifle anyones beliefs, no matter how wacky or insane or self-delusional I might think them to be.

I DO desire that those beliefs not be forced upon me by the state, or the church, or those that think that they know what's good for my "soul".

I also desire that said beliefs do not deprive my fellow citizens of their Rights of equal protection under the law. I also desire that these selfsame fellow citizens are not used as scapegoats by self-serving politicians and religious groups.

Go, huddle in your church! Pray to your invisible sky buddy and beg it to smite the unbelievers! The rest of us will just get on with life here in the 21st Century.

---

by: Chris Tucker @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 17:12:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am also an atheist.

---

by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 22:58:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Did you bother reading my post?

Did you bother reading the part where my disagreement is not with all atheists?

And nice job jumping to conclusions assuming I am Christian, just because I do know agree with certain arguments of certain atheists, and throwing around insults.

---

by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 23:16:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How many times are you going to repeat this same twaddle?

What exactly is a "fundamental atheist"?  How does s/he differ from your garden variety atheist?

Let me try to drive home the point that Keori made earlier:

To date, 29 states have passed constitutional amendments banning gay marriage.  In every single instance that amendment was initiated or actively promoted by a religious group or groups.  Likewise there have been countless laws and/or ballot initiatives banning gay adoption or rescinding hard-won equality measures, all of them promoted by religious groups.

I would be most interested to hear you cite even one piece of anti-LGBT legislation that was the handiwork of an atheist, agnostic or humanist group.  I follow these events closely, and I'm aware of none.  Could you please cite examples that you think make the comparison of atheism to religious fundamentalism valid?

It's clear that you don't approve of unbelievers, but inventing terms like "fundamental atheist," and then trying to make that imaginary creature seem just as ominous as the Christian right, is just plain silly.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

---

by: QScribe @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 19:12:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

QScribe there is a distinction between "soft atheism"

and "hard atheism, though."

I think the "fundamentalism" has a lot to do with prosletyzing (as opposed to simply stating one's beliefs). But I think we need to work on a clear definition of "fundamentalism."

I'll be back in a minute.

---

by: kevinchi @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 19:22:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Even so

Comparing unbelievers, who have always been a despised minority (even though our numbers are happily growing), to the religion that has dominated American society for more than two centuries--passing Sunday blue laws, laws to regulate what we do with our bodies and what we put into them, banning books and films, etc., promoting Prohibition and countless other laws--is downright absurd.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

---

by: QScribe @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 19:48:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I completely agree with that

but I am (and have always been) wary of "fundamentalism" across the board. I am not sure how I would define it for myself?

It's more than the unwillingness to change my views even in the face of evidence. It's...trying to shove those views down someone's throat, in addition to that. That's why of all religious traditions (and I've studied all of them) Taoism always appealed to me; because it seemed to be the least fundamentalist (I am an agnostic myself, for the record).

---

by: kevinchi @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 19:56:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

For fundamentalist atheists

see, Christopher Hitchens, Martin Amis, Salman Rushdie, and of course the atheist who is so beloved by the more extremist atheist, Richard Dawkins.

---

by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 23:19:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you don't like it, then stop behaving like

the exact mirror of a fundamentalist believer.

---

by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 23:11:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Richard Dawkins

the hero of certain atheists, and Christopher Hitchens, are both equally downright absurd in their views on atheism and religion.

---

by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 23:21:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't like the term fundamentalist atheist?

The other term they are referred to are New Atheists: Christopher Hitchens, Martin Amis, Salman Rushdie, for some examples.

A fundamentalist atheist is an atheist who reads the bible or the quran much the way a fundamentalist Muslim / Christian would read the quran / bible. Literally word for word. And then when it is pointed out to that fundamentalist atheist that the majority of Muslims / Christians do not follow the quran / bible literally the fundamentalist atheist insists that that mean they aren't "real" muslims / christian.

I am an atheist. I deliberately omitted putting that in my post, to see what the reactions of the more extreme atheists here would be.

---

by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 23:03:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

kevinchi is mistaken on one imortant point, and rfloh on everything else.

kevinchi - Fundamentalist isn't a term that applies to atheists or to political groups. It's a word that seeks to nuance the views of superstitious people and make some appear less loony than they really are. .  

Many people quit leftist groups what were homophobic, including myself. But we didn't end our fight for GLBT equality and for economic and political democracy. We just continued the struggle in other groups.

rfloh claims to be says an atheist but irrespective of that rfloh's politics are decidedly right wing. rfloh's concern for the rights of religious bigots is a mask for refusing to take responsibility to suppressing religious violence against GLBT folks and nothing more.

As for religion, I don't think it can be entirely suppressed. It's a scam preying on the mentally ill and folks who lack a scientific view of the world. What we can do is can kick those scam artists till they're down and keep them there. For instance all catholic priests should be forbidden to go any near children unless accompanied by armed police.

I'm not much interested in religion except for its use as a vehicle to promote anti-GLBT bigotry, woman hating and racism. That part of religion has to be suppressed with a heavy hand.

For instance, any decent government would have put the man who said this in jail:

"I get amazed, I can't look at it but about 10 seconds, at these politicians dancing around this, dancing around this, I'm trying to find a correct name for it, this utter absolute, asinine, idiotic stupidity of men marrying men."  (shouts from crowd)

"I've never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry."  (shouts, applause) "And I'm gonna be blunt and plain, if one ever looks at me like that I'm gonna kill him and tell God he died." (laughter, applause) "In case anybody doesn't know, God calls it an abomnation (sic).  It's an abomnation (sic)!  It's an abomnation (sic)!"  (applause)

That was pentecostal minister Jimmy Swaggart in 2004. Obama's Minister of Pandering Joshua Dubois, who now heads the faith based bribery effort, is also an ordained pentecostal minister. So is Leah Daughtry, head of the Democratic (sic) National Committee. Like Swaggart, they're pigheaded opponents of same sex marriage.

Swaggart, Dubois and Daughtry are the kind of bigots rfloh is protecting.

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

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by: donal1944 @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 at 01:34:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can't sleep

This definition of fundamentalism (lower case "f") is from Webster's

"a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles (e.g. Islamic fundamentalism political fundamentalism")

http://www.merriam-webster.com...

donal we've had this discussion before:

If you are pro-LGBT, then you are by definition not a fundamentalist if fundamentalist socialism and communism is defined by strict adherence to Marx and Engles.

From what I have read, these type of fundamentalist leftist politics were also present in the Black Panthers (Though Huey Newton was not like this).

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by: kevinchi @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 at 04:25:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

For the record, kevinchi, Communists and socialist are among our most loyal allies…

Anti-GLBT sentiment has never been the cornerstone of communist, socialist, or social democratic thought, but it does typify the sentiments of the Democratic and Republican leadership. Obama in particular is a bigot and a panderer.

Engle's personal prejudices aside, the vast bulk of the left are our firm allies and supporters, in and out of trade unions and the antiwar movements and have been since the beginning of our movement. For instance the Soviet CP, before it was captured by the Stalinists, sent delegates to the international gay movement led by Magnus Hirschfeld.

Stalinists and Maoists are nothing if not opportunists so it's plausible that some of them are turning our way, if for the wrong reason. Remember what Trotsky said "Stalinism is the syphilis of the workers movement."

You should be wary. I am wary, but the truth is that communist and socialist groups are firmly pro-LGBT. Go to the Marxist Internet Library and rummage around. You'll find the occasional bigot (unlike the Democratic (sic) leadership, where they're almost 100% bigots. But the overwhelming majority or left parties and indivduals are firmly on our side.

Finally, there aren't any groups that follow "strict adherence to Marx and Engles" whose thinking is a century and a half old. Lenin, Trotsky, and dozens of others around the world have updated and changed their original program. Along the way these groups have become firm supporters of GLBT rights, exactly the opposite of the Democrats and Republicans.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

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by: donal1944 @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 at 22:40:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here are a couple of examples of the kind of groups

coming out of the merger of left, trade union and LGBT activists around the world.  

http://diversityandequality.ph/

http://www.rainbowrose.eu/spip...

There are plenty of others internationally but we need to begin focusing on exapnding PAW, AFL-CIO and a focus on independent political action and building an independent GLBT left. It's our most important agenda item.

Every LGBT union member should join Pride at Work, AFL-CIO and try to get their local to donate a regular sustaining fund for PAW.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

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by: donal1944 @ Fri May 01, 2009 at 04:27:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

As an addendum

I suggest you read up on Fidel Castro's views on GLBTs.

Also, it isn't all that uncommon to find among communists / socialists a couple who believe and argue that the GLBT identity is a ploy invented by capitalists, just like religion was invented by the capitalists, to divide and rule the working class.

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by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 14:37:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So what?

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the socialist/anti-clerical Zapatero government in Spain--which legalized gay marriage, among other equality measures.  Oh, right--they're "fundamental atheists," so nothing they do counts.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 19:41:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

QScribe , there's degrees of it, of course

donal1944 and I have actually had this discussion about socialists/communists and Marx and Engels before when he shared some of his personal experiences. "fundamentalist socialism" and "funadamentalist communism" is very anti-LGBT. I may be mistaken, but I think that's one of the reasons Bayard Rustin left the Communist Party.

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by: kevinchi @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 19:50:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's also

one of the reasons Harry Hay left the Party and founded Mattachine.

But that was more than sixty years ago.  What does it have to do with the sociopolitical landscape today?  Using those examples to "prove" that socialists are anti-gay is no more relevant than pointing out that Lincoln was a Republican.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 20:10:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's something to remember

and be wary of. That's all.

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by: kevinchi @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 20:17:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Right

because I was trying to "prove" that socialists are anti-gay.

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by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 23:09:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So what?

So when the left, when atheists support GLBT rights, it is to be lauded, but when it doesn't, let's see no evil and hear no evil?

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by: rfloh @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 23:06:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't confuse stalinism with the left.

I don't really follow developments in the world of the Maoists and Stalinists so they may be an exception but otherwise all socialist, social democratic and communist groups that I'm aware of in Mexico, Canada, the US, the EU, Asia, Australasia, Africa, and Latin America support GLBT rights, most very aggressively. They are among our best allies.

rfloh is not telling the truth if he's says that's not true.

And please no quotes from 150 or 100 years ago. Things have changed.

As for the Fidelistas they're dead wrong about GLBT folks but their attitudes are rapidly changing. In any case they're a vast improvement over the ugliness of pre-Revolutionary Cuba, dominated by American gangsters and catholic child molesters. In all other respects the Cuban Revolution brought vast improvements in the lives of workers, women, minorities and farmers.

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

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by: donal1944 @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 at 01:58:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

donal, you're right

socialism (for the most part) seems to have changed over time. But forgive me for being wary of it.

I remember when I read Jasmyne Cannick's LA Times column on Prop 8 after the election and I knew it reminded me of something, but I couldn't remember what at the time.

It was Engles. It was Cannick's notion of the "white gays" that was almost identical to Engle's economic notions of pederasty as an affront to the working class.

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by: kevinchi @ Thu Apr 30, 2009 at 04:38:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sidenote

Anne Heche was always vague when talking about her sexual orientation: never claimed to be gay, bi, or anything-- just made references to her undying love for Ellen.  I really can't stand Anne Heche but I think it's unfair for her to be held to account for things she never said.

I'm only a click away.

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by: JulieWaters @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 04:56:28 AM CDT

Anne Heche

I was a huge fan of Anne Heche when she rose to prominence.  After Matthew Shepard was killed, I attended a vigil on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial.  Anne was there, along with Ellen and a number of gay and pro-gay legislators.  Her words were inspiring, her spirit defiant.  Then ... she went a little nuts, starting speaking gibberish on the news, broke Ellen's heart, and ... well.

And, as an actor, I was always a big fan and remain so; she's an exceptionally talented woman.

It's completely up to Anne how she wishes to label herself.  While she may be vague, you certainly can't call her "closeted" by any stretch of the imagination.  When the time came for Ellen's big coming out moment, something that had been carefully planned for over a year, she was very new to the relationship, and yet it became a big (BIG) coming out for her as well.  And for a couple of years, she handled it beautifully (I thought).

It's my belief that Anne is bisexual.  I wish she'd just say so, but that's not my decision to make.  I suspect that the reason she doesn't refer to herself as "bi" are the lies and myths that surround bisexuals, in both the straight and gay communities, some of which she might even believe herself.  For instance, if her definition of "bisexual" is "must have both in regular intervals or else not sexually satisfied," then I can understand why she'd say, "That's not me.  I'm not bi."  But, as you say, she never backtracked on the notion that she and Ellen were very much in love and the relationship was very real.

It's a problem, particularly within the LGBT community.  I think we need to do a much better job of understanding bisexuality and bisexuals - and not just the ones who are abducted by aliens in the Mojave desert.

"There are two kinds of people in this world -- the kind who separate the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't."  -- Gloria Steinem

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by: red7eric @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 06:35:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well said

I think bisexuals are anywhere from ignored to misunderstood to villianized in the larger gay community. It's something that's always bothered me, and is often treated as if it isn't a legitimate orientation at all. Unfortunately, part of this is because some people use it in transition to their...full gayness, I guess. We've all known people who have said "I'm straight" "I'm bi" "No, actually I'm gay". And hopefully, as homosexuality becomes more accepted, that will happen less. But bisexual people are still very much a part of the community, and should be treated as such. We're all queer, folks. Let's get along! Or try.  

http://chimaerandi.blogspot.com/

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by: GirlyQ @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 13:55:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

She sent me the article and I wrote her back

You can imagine what I wrote.

She answered me and I wrote again. Silence ever since.  

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by: David Ehrenstein @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 08:53:25 AM CDT

Ms. Richardson

You live in Texas. The Texas State Constitution says this in its Bill of Rights:

Sec. 3a.  EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW. Equality under the law shall not be denied or abridged because of sex, race, color, creed, or national origin. This amendment is self-operative.

It also says:

Sec. 32.  MARRIAGE. (a) Marriage in this state shall consist only of the union of one man and one woman.

(b)  This state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or recognize any legal status identical or similar to marriage.

(Added Nov. 8, 2005.)

So, one hand gives the blessings of equality to one and all, and the other hand slaps down a class of Texas citizens and says "NO! THIS is not for you!"

Ms. Richardson, I live in Boston, Massachusetts. Some years ago, my state had the honor and privilege of being the first State in the Union recognizing the Right of same sex couples to marry.

Our Supreme Judicial Court looked at our State Constitution (written by one John Adams, the second President of the United States.) and found nothing in that document that stated that a specific class of otherwise competent Commonwealth citizens could be denied the Right of marriage. Indeed, they found specific language that required the Court to insist upon marriage equality in the Commonwealth:

"All people are born free and equal and have certain natural, essential and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness. Equality under the law shall not be denied or abridged because of sex, race, color, creed or national origin." This is Article One of our Constitution.

Ms. Richardson, in the years since the Commonwealth of Massachusetts recognized the Right of marriage equality, the Commonwealth still enjoys the status of the state with the lowest rate of divorce in the Union. Our teen pregnancy rate remains lower than many states in the "Bible Belt".

None of the claims that marriage would suffer or that society would suffer or that the Wrath of God would strike the Commonwealth have come to pass. The Sky has not fallen, the Earth has not opened, the waters of the Charles River and Boston Harbor have not turned to blood.

Indeed, in that year when marriage equality was recognized, the Boston Red Sox won the World Series. As a lifelong resident of New England/Red Sox fan, believe me when I say that it would take an Act of God for the Sox to win the World Series.

If there has been any downside to our marriage equality here in the Commonwealth, it is that these days, married couples may have to wait an extra ten minutes or so to get their wedding photos taken in some of the more popular scenic spots in the Public Garden in the spring and summer months.

Ms. Richardson, do not be afraid of the future. It's a wonderful, glorious place to live.

Do not be afraid of "gay marriage". Two men or two women marrying, to quote Thomas Jefferson, "...neither breaks (your) leg nor picks (your) pocket." Neither does it endanger nor cheapen your marriage or the marriage of any other straight couple.

Ms. Richardson, please, join your fellow Americans in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa and Vermont. Join your fellow Americans who believe that, indeed, All People are created equal and have & enjoy equal rights under the law and equal protection of the law.

Come on in, the equality feels great!

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by: Chris Tucker @ Wed Apr 29, 2009 at 13:01:05 PM CDT