Blend workshop: how to engage on the topic of race and LGBT civil rights

Race, religion and LGBT

Booyah, Pam. Discrimination against other faiths who want LGBT marriage is an excellent point! A while ago I was asked to participate in a college speech class and dialogue with a minister. He happened to be fundie Christian and Lebanonese, quite unschooled for the dialogue process, my arguments and facts about LGBT lives, but the question I kept asking and remained unanswered was why were his rights, his beliefs more important than mine? Where was room for mine? The class observing got it, alas, he did not...yet

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by: mikamaj @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:00:28 AM CDT

As the director of an LGBT center, tihs is an issue I struggle with

on a daily basis, and I appreciate your efforts to help develop the dialogue.

Usually, 25-30 % of the employees at the center I manage are QPOC, but that does not solve the challenges we face of both making inroads into POC communities; it doesn't even help us make inroads with a QPOC community who feels as though to walk into the center is to choose one of their identities over the other.  All the above illustrates is that we aggressively advertise in diverse places and have worked hard to conduct interviews and searches in as inclusive a process as possible.

So, I don't have any brilliant insights, but one thing I would note for the young activist above is that trying to use his biracial boyfriend to display that he is not at all racist is - clearly unintentionally but none-the-less - something of a racist approach.

Think "I'm not gay - some of my best friends are gay..."

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by: aggieric @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:01:03 AM CDT

I don't see partnering with his boyfriend on these outreach efforts

as racist; it's a reality that the people they are encountering often refuse to acknowledge that there are POC LGBTs and start right into the attack mode. Obviously his BF went willingly (if apprehensively, knowing what was coming), and the fact is his presence allows the conversation to turn away from invisibility to their ownership of the fact they consider he's turned in his black card. That's their public admission of bigotry.

That's why I have advocated that when canvassing POC neighborhoods that may be hostile to LGBT rights, whites should pair up with someone of color to take that "weapon" out of the hands of those you talk to. These are people who are rarely challenged about their own prejudices. The major problem with this is we have to tackle the racism in the LGBT community that makes it difficult for POC to feel they will be accepted if the come out. So that leaves a movement with precious few POC to rise to the challenge of taking the almost-certain abuse by members of their own communities of color for the goal of full civil equality. A tall order.

If you read through the HuffPost column, POC who were anti-gay tried repeated to turn the argument around to "what about racism in the white LGBT community". That's not an answer to the question being asked (and I've covered that before anyway), nor does it explain away the problem at hand. No one is denying the racism exists in that sphere, it's about pointing out that it's not one way either. You can't address the problem if it's not acknowledged or if it is deflected by tossing out a different question.

The bottom line is a good number homophobic POC want to change the subject rather than own up to the problem that is costing those community lives because of their silence and promotion of homophobia in the pews.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 09:02:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Your courage & wisdom, Pam, are exemplary

I would only respectfully add that BEFORE engaging in comment one be prepared NOT to surrender to invincible ignorance and "professional victims" [the name of another lesbian blogger of color comes to mind but let's just say she's probably busy somewhere celebrating Michael Vick's parole; probably with Isaiah Washington].

If one is not willing to "stand up" to such experts at screaming the longest and loudest, there's no point in wasting your breath. AND the goal is not to try to change THEIR minds [and I use the term loosely] but minimize their influence on others.

Having been reared in a Holy Roller church [albeit a white one], I'd advise avoiding dueling Scripture interpretations for knowledge of Koine Greek, Hebrew, whatever is no match for the "That's my interpretation and I'm sticking to it" hardwired.

On the other hand, pointing out that Scripture was used to support slavery, too, sometimes makes them weak in the mental knees. And I love snaring them in the "been to Red Lobster lately" trap.

Supportive quotes by black civil rights legends can go a long way in neutralizing them in other's eyes. Who can match the "credentials" of Coretta Scott King [tho her cracked homophobic daughter tries...and fails]. An interesting, and encouraging in its own way, fact that most have forgotten is that even someone as dear and naturally empathetic as Mrs. King herself had to "learn" this. Thanks to the efforts of gay black activists Phill Wilson and others, she did quickly and went to her grave one of the staunchest defenders of "the comparison."

Julian Bond. Joseph Lowery [tho I'm shocked and saddened he's yet to come to marriage equality itself].

As can referencing the support of black civil rights institutions. The CA chapter of the NAACP opposed Prop H8TE. The president of King's Southern Christian Leadership Conference was with our people [of all colors] in Fresno Saturday.

The source is far less known but his perfect crystallization makes it a perfect counterpoint:

"Would you ask me how I'd dare to compare the civil rights struggle with the struggle for lesbian and gay rights? I can compare, and I do compare them. I know what it means to be called a nigger. I know what it means to be called a faggot. And I can sum up the difference in one word: none.

"Bigotry is bigotry. Discrimination is discrimination. It hurts just as much. It dishonors our way of life just as much, and it betrays a common lack of understanding, fairness and compassion...."

Mel Boozer, President, Gay Activists Alliance of Washington, DC, to the Democratic National Convention, 1980.

And gay black civil rights icon Bayard Rustin's lengthy [and 20+ years old] exigesis on "gays are the new 'niggers'" is detailed and powerful...if you can stand up to the intimidation of those who will predictably, volcanically erupt at the mere verbal suggestion.

Both address the larger point. As much as they try to make it, the comparison between racial and homophobic/transphobic bigotry is not a one-for-one battle between their manifestations [no, few gays have been "slaves" in history...but, then, of course, neither has any living native-born American person of color].

While one can point out that blacks can now marry whomever they wish and we cannot, and, despite its violations, federal law prevents job, housing, public accommodations discrimination against people of color in every state while, due to the fact that ENDA has not yet amended the 1964 Civil Rights Act to include us, we can be legally fired, etc., simply for being gay in some 30 states, the central issue is the effects of bigotry itself of any kind.

That's why DADT is such a perfect example, despite the insufferable, willfully ignorant ejaculations of Colin Powell. It is not really about any native characteristic of gays, it is about protecting the homophobia of nongays just like military racial segregation was not ultimately about blacks, whose ability, like ours, to make excellent soldiers had been repeatedly demonstrated, but about protecting white racism.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 09:58:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, I always remembered that Rustin said this

And gay black civil rights icon Bayard Rustin's lengthy [and 20+ years old] exigesis on "gays are the new 'niggers'" is detailed and powerful...if you can stand up to the intimidation of those who will predictably, volcanically erupt at the mere verbal suggestion.

But...I think that only a gay black person can get away with this.

And James Baldwin said loooooong ago that he drew no distinctions between being called a "faggot" and a "nigger."

part of the problem, too, is that far too few gay people know the history of the black civil rights movement in depth other than assorted quotes. That comes off as shallow (though David Mixner does know much of that history in depth).

Then again, far too few blacks that came of age after the black civil rights movement(s) know very little about the movement.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:08:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think that's a failure of the education system

What I know of Civil Rights Mvmt of the 60s, the Chicano Mvmt, etc. was learned on my own. It'd help tremendously if we learned about all of American history when we were young as opposed to an optional addendum in college.

That being said, I see no benefit in The Oppression Olympics. Race and sexuality are two different things that play out in different ways. Civil rights are civil rights, but the Black Civil Rights Mvmt and the GLBT Civil Rights Mvmt are two different causes. They're both legitimate and I think it's a waste of time trying to compare them.

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by: joneke @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:30:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Funny story about "dueling Scriptures"

I remember when I was nine or ten years old and I had done something or another (probably mouthing off) and my aunt (sanctified with the Holy Ghost, thank you Jesus!) gave me one of her tongue lashings. I responded by quoting Scripture on her to defend myself.

I was sentenced to go to the backyard to pick my own switch for daring to quote Scripture on her.

Point being, my homophobic cousin (who was present at the time I mouthed off to my aunt about Scripture) knows that I probably know the Bible far better than he does. But in that instance it would have raised some other old demons so I thought better of it.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:38:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with you that "partnering with his boyfriend on these

outreach efforts" isn't racist; if that's how my comment came across, then I wasn't clear in explaining my thoughts.  Definitely, I believe that QPOC need to step up and help fight bigotry in their POC communities.

I don't think that's the issue I was expressing concern over; my concern was the statement which implied "see, I'm not racist - I date a black man".  The young man you quote may well not be racist (although I always keep in mind that Dr. Jamie Washington and most other anti-racism educators say "race is always in the room"), and maybe I'm just overly sensitive to the issue because identity politics is, in my line of work, a minefield.  I know that if I, in my line of work, were to say "look - I'm not racist - virtually all of the men I've dated have been men of color" I'd be ripped to shreds; in part because there are so many historically loaded issues behind black male sexuality, and in part because inter-racial relationships aren't always proof of a lack of racism; if it were, there wouldn't be POC expressing feelings of being exotified.

I accept that there are always individual exceptions to the rule, but it simply raises a flag for me when a white person uses a POC to prove their lack of racist inclinations.

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by: aggieric @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 06:54:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This does bring up a question in my mind....

As a Bisexual, White Male, exactly how do I go about proving a Negative?

What I mean is, generally speaking, in my experience, especially given my preferred lifestyle, and choice of locale to live in, I am automatically assumed in many circles to be a racist.

I'm afraid that I just don't interact with many POC, be they Black, Asian, Latino, whatever.  Most of the folks around me, out here in Rural Nevada are White, that's just the way it is.

So yes, when presented with an opportunity to interact with POC, I really have no frame of reference.

Now I know I'm not a racist, but how in the hell would somebody go about proving that?

I just don't think it's possible.

And intellectually, I understand that not every POC, just due to my skin colour, is going to assume that I am a racist, but it seems to happen more often than not....

I'm just kind of at a loss here as to what, if anything I could be doing differently....

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by: sfalken @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 16:51:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Anybody remember the Three Stooges episode

where Curly is a boxer with the "Slowly he turns..." chant throws him into a conniption

he was told by the black people we were talking to that he 'gave up' being black when he decided to be gay.

This disgusting idea from many in the black community makes me have a Curly effect. It really makes me want to get violent.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:39:11 AM CDT

Slowly I turned

Step by step, inch by inch, and them I grabbed her.

I think it was an Abbot and Costello routine.  Lou was in a jail cell with a crazy man who had murdered his wife.  I forget the trigger word that started his slow build to murderous rage.  I still laugh thinking about it.

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by: Crazy8 @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:06:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Slowly I Turn

That was an old vaudeville routine - Lucille Ball also did a variant of it on "I Love Lucy."  The trigger word is usually "Niagara Falls," though it's also sometimes "Martha."

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by: popebuck1 @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:43:22 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

See what you people made me do, LOL

it has it's own wikipedia page!

Gents Without Cents, 1944 short film starring The Three Stooges (trigger word: "Niagara Falls")
In Society, 1944 film starring Abbott and Costello (trigger words: "Bagel Street" and "Susquehanna Hat Company")
Lost in a Harem, 1944 film starring Abbott and Costello (trigger word: "Pokomoko")
The Abbott and Costello Show, 1952 episode "Jail" (trigger word: "Niagara Falls"). A different episode of the show uses the In Society version, with "Fluegel Street" replacing "Bagel Street".
I Love Lucy, 1952 episode "The Ballet," [1] (trigger word: "Martha")
Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, 1982 film starring Steve Martin (trigger word: "cleaning woman")
"Buffalo!", 1956 song by Milton Berle (trigger word: "Buffalo")
A pirate in a sketch on The Donny & Marie Show (trigger word: "Nantucket"). He meets a man named Dan Tucket at the end of the sketch; declaring it to be "close enough," the pirate begins to strangle him.
"Don't Call Me Dude," 1990 song by Scatterbrain (trigger word: "dude")
Referenced in Godspell by Victor Garber (trigger phrase: "Jesus Chr-")
Referenced in the M*A*S*H episode "Dr. Pierce and Mr. Hyde".
Referenced in the Moonlighting episode "Blonde on Blonde".
Dinosaucers episode "Allo & Cos-Stego Meet The Abominable Snowman" (trigger word: "Himalayas")
Talespin episode "The Bigger They Are the Louder They Oink" (trigger word: "bacon")
The Price Is Right host Drew Carey will say "Slowly I turned ..." whenever a contestant mentions he/she is from Rancho Cucamonga, California (trigger word: "Cucamonga"))
The Laurel and Hardy film Saps at Sea uses a variation of the gag: instead of a particular word or phrase, it's the sound of a horn playing that acts as the trigger for Ollie's violent outbursts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:48:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It was actually an old burlesque routine

that Abbott and Costello appropriated, from their own years as burlesque comics.  The Stooges also did it, though as I recall, it was Moe who went postal, not curly.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:49:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks for the help Pam.

I was the sender of this email and I am stuck in a grey area.I feel like the homophobia and racism calls come too early in every attempt of dialect I have facilitated between my local group of LGBT activists and the local black community. Since I sent you the email I spoke with one of my freshmen history teacher (we bonded over our adoration for Obama) and she suggested I "feel out" the AA church groups for those that would be more friendly toward the LGBT movement.

She said that a lot of the perceived homophobia from the community stems from their deep religious roots, and if I talk to some of those that run the more willing churches about the issues that currently affect LGBT in California it could be my best shot at outreach.

@aggieric, I guess you're right about using my boyfriend like that. I just don't know how comfortable POC are listening to a white male complain about his missing civil rights and the inequalities that go along with them. I guess I just have a lot to learn about the more sensitive aspects of this debate.

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by: Disuberence @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:49:05 AM CDT

Wow typos much?

I should just stop myself from posting until it's a decent hour of the morning and I am 100% awake. Ha...ha...ha.

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by: Disuberence @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:50:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Religion

I'm quite convinced that most (certainly not all) black homophobia is religiously derived.  I think that's true of homophobia in general, but because of the large role religion has played in the black civil rights movement, it's even more strongly the case in the black community.  One way or another, black homophobia (like white homophobia) isn't going to stop instantly; it will take years, possibly decades or even longer.  Working to diminish the privileged status of Christianity in American society seems like one effective way of aiding that process; that will inevitably diminish the influence of black churches as well as mainstream ones--all of which can only help us.  It's not confronting the problem directly, but it will certainly help.  A lot.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:58:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

But remember

1) There are black institutions outside of the black church, although even in some of those institutions, there are varying degrees of the presence of black churches (contrast the national NAACP with some of the local NAACP chapters in, say, Cincinnati or Iowa).

2) James Baldwin noted (I want to say in his book on the Atlanta child murders, The Evidence of Things Not Seen) that the black church was probably the only black institution that survived integration. So while there is a widespread anipathy for organized religion in the gay community (and for good reasons), black churches and members of black church congregations also see that antipathy, in part, as an attack on black culture.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:16:56 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

My favorite Baldwin quote:

Americans suffer from an ignorance that is not only colossal, but sacred.

I know that relates more to our discussion of anti-intellectualism than to this one, but I can never resist citing it.  ;)

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:49:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"I can't make alliances on the basis of race"

is my favorite Baldwin quote, I don't think it's exact, though.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 12:05:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

status in the paradigm vs. the paradigm itself

I wonder if marginalized, oppressed, disenfranchised groups of all stripes need to work harder to understand that it is not our/their place in the paradigm that is the problem, it is the paradigm itself.

Funny—I know the current paradigm is BS, and I have intellectually re-sorted my constructs in the name of equality.  But when I think about exploding the paradigm entirely, my lizard brain feels fear, and honestly, I haven't completely let the old construct go.  Perhaps this is a window into some of the psychology going on.  "Wait, you mean queers aren't inferior?  They deserve the same civil rights as me?  If that's true, then what are the guidelines for law and behavior?"  

I'm clear that fundamental equality is one metric.  Consent is another (including the requisite psycho-social-sexual-physical development/maturity).  And that absence of injury is another (victimless crime).  Other metrics?  But these concepts—even equality—don't have the history, visibility, cohesiveness or power that the old paradigm has, i.e., some groups are "more equal" than others.  

Listen to your fairy Godmother, my dear: you will go to the ball.

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by: 555catnap @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 12:13:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Me personally, I am hesitant to go here

My suggested answer, of course, doesn't even address religious objections to homosexuality; if it hasn't been brought up as a defense shield yet, would likely come up next.

Talking about religion (especially as it concerns GLBT civil rights) gives me a fucking headache. Or at least it did when I talked to my homophobic cousin (I don't speak to him after our last conversation).

However, I can go there. One good thing about graduating from a Catholic university is that I was ablw to take courses in the Bible and I have a background in Greco-Roman culture. My knowledge of Greek and Latin is pretty rusty but I have the materials for refresher courses.

At the black GLBT meeting we had here in Chicago, one of the speakers talked about having the ability to properly translate the Koine Greek of the New Testament to a black congregation. I can easily re-develop my abilities to this.

In that sense, I probabdly "know" Scripture far better than my cousin (who took the time to quote the usual stuff) and I saw that doing so was a waste of time. Then you come off as being too educated or "too white."

Maybe this is a sacrifice that I need to make though, in the spirit of Nadine Smith's post.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:54:35 AM CDT

"I was ableto take courses"

"I probably"

Sheeesh, disurberence, and you were talking about typos!

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 08:57:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

As any number of Blenders (myself included) have pointed out,

nonbelievers almost always know the Bible better than believers.  The number of "Christians" who have actually read the Bible and understood it is probably even lower than the number who really live by their Messiah's ideals.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:05:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Really?

I'm not religious & I know the bible better than a number of Christians, but I was also raised by a Baptist minister.

I have a hard time believing nonbelievers know the bible better than self-identified Christians. What I would say is that a lot of Christians have a shallow understanding of the teachings of their religion which leads them to believe that discriminating against gays is a founding tenet of Christianity.

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by: joneke @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:41:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Same here

But remember, you can't really claim to be "educated" in "the Western tradition." IMO, without knowing the Bible. Of course, it is studied in more of a literary or cultural context than a Christian would study the Bible.

I've had the benefit of studying the Bible in both contexts.

So in spite of the fact that I find the idea of outreach into black churches absolute anathema (given I have anger issues, lol) could I do it? Yeah...  

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:49:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

All the agnostics/atheists I know

studied the bible (in my case, also the book of mormon) as part of the journey from believer to humanist.

When someone throws out Sodom, I respond with Ezekiel 16:49. Most of them don't even know it's in there, and it's pretty explicit.

Ezekiel 16:49 - Behold, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

So much for God Hates Buggery, sounds more like he hates Republicans.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

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by: QueerInSoCal @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:51:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Funny, most of the ones I know

haven't studied the bible (other than what you need to know to understand references in literature). I guess that just goes to show the folly of anecdotal evidence.

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by: joneke @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 12:19:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The only way to address this is to come out

Disclosure:  I am white. I was raised in a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic household, full of 'colors' and craziness.  

Here in the SF Bay Area, I am surrounded by non-whites.  From my very unscientific observation, it appears that there are many out, visible Asians, Latinos and Whites.  It also appears that there are many blacks who are obviously in the closet. I know several.  Some of them don't even disclose their gayness to me - and I am way out. Frankly, I don't know if it an act of kindness or cruelty to go along with their charades.  Of course, my motivation is kindness and we all know the lesson about walking a mile in someone else's shoes and being judgmental.

Why are LGBT issues the '3-rail' for so many African Americans?  I foolishly participated in an interactive exhibit of Langston Hughes, writing that we needed to celebrate his blackness AND his gayness.  "Security" was the next thing I heard.  

My question:  Is there greater risk of families disowning LGBT blacks should they 'come-out' than among other ethnicities?  If not, come the hell out.    

Nadie Smith's post below has some good points - mainly that efforts for equality aren't going to be easy or pretty.  

Coming out for black LGBTs will not be easy.  But it is something that needs to happen.  

When I read blogs such as Jasmyne's, I realize that there is still a world of healing needed.  Sadly, I had hoped that that healing would come with the Obama presidency.  I now know that it has to come from within.  

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by: Gary SF @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 09:01:13 AM CDT

Part of it is religion

and part of is the racist past of the demonization of black sexuality, Gary and the unconscious fear of many in the black community that those stereotypes would be revived and/or have a basis in fact.

think about it, both black and gay people (and defintely blackgay people!) have had to put up with the stereotype that all we like to do is fuck.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 09:15:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Now that's just ridiculous

No one wants to fuck as much as white lesbians. **grins evilly at kevinichi**

Though Kevin, you have put me in mind of something that happened to me back in October. I was in D.C. on business, staying in an Alexandria, VA hotel, and was eating dinner downstairs at the little bar/restaurant. I was sitting at the bar eating my salad, minding my own business, when an older black gentleman asked if he could sit down next to me (the only open seat left). Of course I said yes, we started talking family, politics, etc, and before I knew it 30 minutes had gone by. I got my Chesapeake seafood stew (OMG it was GOOD), and this man was so amused by my obvious pleasure at it that I handed him a spoonful of it to taste. A few minutes later a middle-aged white guy came up and started harassing us, asking me if I was okay, did I need help, etc. He left when I told him to piss off, flashing many dirty looks. All I could do was sit there, look at my companion, and ask, "Did that really just happen?" And I can't help but think that it wouldn't have happened if I'd been anything other than a pretty young white woman having dinner and conversation with a black man. And if I'd not fed him from my own spoon (a gesture which many people would interpret as overtly sexual), all we probably would have gotten were dirty looks. Some people are still so convinced of the stereotype you reference. In this case, it was a combination of racism mixed with sexism, and just as ugly. "We must protect the virtue of our white wimmins!" **BARF** My "virtue" (whatever is left of it at this point) was plenty safer with my dinner companion than the thug who harassed us.

Sexism and homobigotry in the U.S. are based in christianity, but seem to have taken on a life of their own. Racism is just one more neat little tie into that. It's a way of Othering people, and laying exclusive claim to people you want to control.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 06:00:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I gave up being black too

And belive me it was no loss.

Since you can't be black and gay at the same time, that means I get to keep James Baldwin, Langston Hughes, Bessie Smith, Billy Strayhorn, Zora Neale Hurston, Ethel Waters, Johnny Mathis, Bayard Rustin and a host of others.

Please remind all Dicty Negroes that being that they're gay those names must be stricken from the African-American History books.  

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by: David Ehrenstein @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 09:27:09 AM CDT

Not JUST about being gay, either

My "black card" was revoked because I liked "book learning" too much.

As a kid I really didn't get too many anti-gay slurs (as seems commonplace nowadays), I received anti-white slurs.

That, more than anything else, was the reason I didn't thump the Bible back at my cousin by translating and putting into a cultural and historical context some of those Bible passages he was thumping me with. There's that bit of dirty laundry too.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 09:36:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It sounds like you're saying

that the anti-intellectualism that has always been an integral part of American culture (see Richard Hofstadter's terrific book on the subject) runs even deeper in the black community.  Do you think that's the case?  Because if it is, the challenges facing us look even harder.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:11:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, the stories!

I've experienced anti-intellectualism far more than homophobia in the black community.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:19:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

As always...

its more complicated.

I would not actually call it strictly anti-intellectualism. There is an element of that, but that permeates most of American society.

At issue is really a sense that someone is trying to be better than everyone else, or seperate from everyone else. Its the sense that you are trying to divest yourself from the struggle.

Consider it this way, no one accuses the black businessmen in the music industry of somehow being less black. Indeed, most politicians don't face that either. Plenty of black intellectuals get respect even amongst the unwashed masses.

What's key here is the idea that they "don't forget who they are and where they came from." That's really what people are reacting to.

However, the truth is that this happens in white communities as well, (especially in rural areas). Each community has its different nomenclature. Blacks may call it acting white. Whites in rural areas just call it elitism or liberalism. It all kind of works out the same way.

I do not think that its really that much worse in the black community. I grew up in it and worked in it. I got teased, but I also had my friends. The only reason that we notice it more amongst black Americans or POCs in general, is that we are a smaller more obvious community. Plus the national media has been exploiting this for alot longer.

---

by: SciFi Geek @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:48:30 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Name the black intellectuals, though

There is some truth to that but I know that particularly feminist intellectuals have had a very rough time of it among the "unwashed masses" in the black community.

And I don't think that the national media has been "exploiting" anti-intellectualism in the black community either; if anything, it's been black intellectuals that have, at times, served as spokespeople for the black community in the media. Well, there's that AND the idea that black people (in general) are less intelligent; both are operative.

---

by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:56:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

white feminist intellectuals have a rough time among the white "know-nothings"

It can safely be said that all non-elite groups of men are generally more resentful of intellectual women than intellectual men.

Kevinchi, you are 100% right about the American tendency to anti-intellectualism, present in every race/ethnicity and social class (as are intellectuals).

---

by: NancyP @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 16:23:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, I was speaking about

a specific context in black communities although, as Sci Fi and QScribe pointed out, it is prevalent throughout American society.

Iim speaking more about my own personal experiences with it than anything, I guess.

---

by: kevinchi @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 16:33:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I completely agree

I wanted to write this myself, but I couldn't quite find the right words. When I was a kid, some people black kids accused me of "acting white", but most didn't.

Judging from the experience of my friends of other races, this anti-intellectualism isn't unique to the black community, and in my opinion isn't any worse.

---

by: joneke @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 12:10:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

QScribe isn't saying that it's unique

But you do have to be mindful of the cultural context.

I remember I had a job in my early 20's where I talked about this with a co-worker from Holland. He said that he experienced anti-intellectualism when his family moved from Amsterdam to a smaller town. That is, he was teased and taunted for "talking proper."

---

by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 12:16:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not sure what I can add, but

I don't try to discuss LGBT rights with everyone. I can't really explain it but some people are more receptive, and you can kind of sense it when talking to them.

In my religious Baptist family somewhat counterintuitively, I've found that the more mature a person's faith, the more likely they are to be receptive to gay rights. I personally don't see any conflict between being a Christian & being gay, and in my experience people with deeper understandings of the bible are the most likely to see this.

In my conversations I've heard a number of straight POC say "Gay groups don't care about us, so why should I care about them?" My response has been that LGBT groups probably don't care about us (I'm black), but that doesn't mean we should vote against their rights.

---

by: joneke @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:07:07 AM CDT

The Civil Rights Commission

has no LGBT's (black or white) included in it's membership.  This is wrong.  LGBT discrimination is from the President down in that "Civil Rights" are perceived as the territory of POC's and define the struggle of the 60's, closely associated with religious leaders who led the movement.  
We LGBT's (black and white) are timid in claiming we want "Equal Rights" when in fact we should be claiming we want "Civil Rights" under constitutional law outside of religion.
Pam makes a wonderful suggestion that in outreach, there must be a POC LGBT along with a "White" LGBT to approach those who defend "Civil Rights" as religious and black.  We must get the word out that our rights are also "Civil Rights", no matter the color of our skin as we are being discriminated against.  It sure would help us along if there was one of us on the Civil Rights Commission.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

---

by: CharlesMerrill @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:55:57 AM CDT

I think that

Mary Francis Berry has said that there should be LGBT inclusion on the Civil Rights Commission.

---

by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 10:58:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, Her Op Ed in the New York Times

published several months ago.  I posted it here on this blog.  So far no reaction from the White House or Civil Rights Commission.  That's why I keep bringing it up every chance I get.  HRC should be pressing the issue of "Civil Rights", but they don't as far as I am aware.  Might it interfere with their branding us an "Equal Rights" movement with their popular yellow equals bumper sticker.  It is important that we LGBT's are defined as a "Civil Rights" movement.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

---

by: CharlesMerrill @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 16:08:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ah, but you know the sensitivity

with that "nomenclature" (ever since the Prop 8 hearings, I love using that word.

---

by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 16:16:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Since federal law

doesn't protect the civil rights of LGBT people, having one (or more) of us on the commission wouldn't be more than a symbolic gesture--and would almost certainly generate an outcry from the reactionary parts of the black community, for all the reasons discussed in this thread.

But once we have ENDA (if ever, under the current Congress) we should make it a priority to demand representation on the commission.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

---

by: QScribe @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:18:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Symbolic is good

It adds to the critical mass of thought.  Donna Brazile of the DNC is saying gay and lesbian "Civil Rights" on CNN.  This helps.
The population hears "Civil Rights for gays" then they start saying it, sometimes unconsiously.
"Equal Rights for all" seen from floats at gay pride parades is seen as a big party and messaging gets lost.  One reason Hillary Clinton said, "We haven't suffered enough".

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

---

by: CharlesMerrill @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:34:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sure, symbolism is important.

But it's also important to keep in mind that it is only symbolism.  If I thought having an LGBT seat on the commission would help get LGBT civil rights enacted, I'd be for it in a heartbeat.  But we've had far too much symbolism on our behalf and far too little action.  As I've noted before, appointments are very nice--for the people who receive them.  But they don't do anything for the rest of us.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

---

by: QScribe @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 12:00:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

A wish

It's too bad that we of the TLBG community would wake up one day all covered in neon pink stripes or polka dots in various shades depending on where a person lies on the Kinsey Scale.

It's sad to see the black community discriminate against itself in skin colour and if someone loves learning... it's as if the victim mentality is ingraned in the collective psyche or something.

Maybe if the industrial elite would do more to gain inroads in the POC community and ensure good paying jobs are located in these inner cities, maybe the cycle can be broken.

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!

---

by: Marlene @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:09:11 AM CDT

That used to be possible

when the black middle class actually lived with and among the working class and the poor in black communities. Now much of the middle class has moved away from those communities; it's not a simple problem of "white flight."

I'm from Detroit, so I have seen this first hand. Almost all of my family lives in (now) integrated suburbs to the north of the city. It's not just a race problem, it's also a class problem. And that class problem also needs to be taken into account in any analysis such as this.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:25:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

For what its worth...

Here's my view. It should surprise no one that I actually disagree with some of the ideas suggested.

1) Personally, I would suggest NOT mentioning members of the black civil rights movement. This is one of my personal pet peeves and can backfire badly. One of the reasons it usually bothers me is because I frequently hear people that normally couldn't care less about issues for black Americans, try to fling those names around. Their words have no power when the person you are talking to do not identify with your cause. Instead it looks like pandering and comes off as a little naive and insulting.

2) intimately linked with point one is as Pam mentioned, be honest about the differences in experiences between POCs and gay (white) people. Show that you not only know, but actually get that there is a very real difference between the two. Also reflect on some of the genuine hostility that the white gay community has for POCs

3) Relate to people on issues that are not clearly about race and sexuality. You're white, you'll never fully understand the struggles of a black person. However, if you're poor or working class, identify with their day to day challenges. How are they making ends meet, talk to them about what gives them strenght, about their families about common interests and challenges. I think that the 2008 election showed that alot of people can get over alot of the BS that we are tagged with when we can look around and see that we are all sinking in shit together. It creates a common bond. More importantly though, ONLY do this if your HONESTLY can identify with their other life challenges. Fake people are incredibly honest.

4) Avoid debating religion. Its a trap and there is no way to win. More importantly, the reality is that despite the sentiment you hear in the media, most people's objections to homosexuality is more viceral/emotional than religious. People simply use their religion as cover. People are morelikely to relate to you as an individual and a person than as a member of the LGBT community.

5) This is a big one and is deeply related to 3. EMPHASIZE STRUGGLE. One of the reasons that I frequently don't give two shits about the "LGBT community" as a whole, despite technically being a part of it...is that I usually see it as a quasi utopian alien world that someone like me has nothing in common with. This is a HUGE problem for the LGBT communities to overcome. When LGBT people feel alienated from the "mainstream" LGBT community, how in the hell do you expect other people to connect with it.

I blame this squarely on the middle/upper class white gay men that have spent years selliing the idea of what the LGBT community looks like. Pick up any gay publication, or watch LGBT oriented TV/movies, what do you see...relatively rich, extraordinarily good looking, white men (with some women thrown in for good measure). That is the absolute WORST message to send to America at large when you are fighting for equality. The message instantly becomes, "what are you fighting for, you already got everything."

Black Americans, in particular, respond to struggle. Having been on the gound ourselves, we tend to empathise with people that we also see getting kicked to the curb. How many black Americans know much about the Palestinians. Probably no more than most Americans. But you'll see that there is a certain affinity for their cause in the community because they are seen as people suffering at the hands of a powerful opressor. The LGBT media goes out of its way to avoid showing that. To the average POC out there, why the hell should they give a damn about some rich gay white guy that sleeps with models, lives on Park Avenue, and vacations in Amsterdam? We telegraph images and perceptions that we are the very people who opress and abuse minorities. So why would they support us.

While it might seem like dividing anc conquering, you've got to work to show that gay does not mean privilledged. I swear the root cause of so much of our problems is that we don't really show that we are suffering.

---

by: SciFi Geek @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:38:17 AM CDT

You are bringing up the "class" issue

Which is just as touchy of a subject in working class and poor black communities.

Mind you I live a few blocks away from "the black community" in my Big Ten town north of Chicago. It's very, very different from the South Side or the West Side of Chicago.

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by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:43:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well...

On some level it is about class. People identify poverty with struggle. In the black experience, struggle means having materially less than others, which is derrived from laws/actions/policies designed to inhibit developemnt. Its one of the reasons why somoe people have always had a hardtime identifying with the struggles of Jews. The stereotype has always been that they are materially well off.

The key here is that no matter what, you actually DO have to identify with the concerns of the people. You cannot simply say it and expect people to buy it.

I have a white collar job in Evanston, live on the north side of Chicago, and have degrees from prestigious universities. Do I always identify with every black person. Obviously not, and I have my share of difficulty integrating. But that would not preclude me from understanding the day to day difficulties many suffer because I am not too far removed from them.

Its really about showing commonality than anything else.

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by: SciFi Geek @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 11:57:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Thread?

Is closed. shut down by SciFi Geek. Come back during regular business hours!

Matter of fact, this comment is a thread and of itself.

---

by: saywhat? @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 15:08:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, saywhat?

offer us your pearls of wisdom...

---

by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 15:12:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That was... rushing to my bus so filled with typos

Sarcasm by the way, not trying to say that no one else contributed to the thread; but Sci Fi Geek did hit a lot of points that were being missed imo; some I agree with some I see differently, but I think he got to the nitty gritty in ways white gays can connect on issues with het. POCS.

Anything I say would just be rehashed versions and drawn out.

Re #1, again, it is annoying to see LGBT groups use the civil rights movement of blacks as a moniker for its movement when such groups do not care or project that they do not care about the interest of black people. This sin't anything against LGBT groups, but its annoying no matter what group does it. Hell, PETA did it one time and it was annoying- remember the campaign comparign teh torute of elephants to that of slevery? Um...no. Its not the same damn thing. That is not to say that they aren't connected (because they are) but I feel as if the people who usually make such connections do so with little information about the Civil Rights movement of the 60's, or the gay rights movement because the LGBT movement has done so much that it need not compare notes to any other group to be certified as a movement.

I know most who do that are for the most part trying to draw connections and help people understand, but may be doing so without realizing that they aren't going to do much to connect to a black person who sees a gay white person with the privelege of whiteness on their side to really be persecuted. You don't have to draw images of slaves and say, "and this is how gay people are being treated today' because a) black people still have it bad and b) you are not treated the exact same way as blacks were in the past.

re his #3: I agree, but I would also bring up emphasis of struggle and help folks to understand that just because the gay movement isn't the exact same thing as the civil rights for black, it doesn't mean that its less legitmate. Hell, I'd also bring up the fact that there a a many of Black LGBT people who get ignored and tossed aside by both groups and that by finding fault with a faw white gay people for behaving the exact same way as white straight people do (i.e, either being totally ignorant of blackfolks issues or totally apathetic), you're ignoring the struggling of people similiar to themselves.

Which also goes into his #4: I agree that one of the problems with the LGBT community is its image. Matter of fact I liked how he compared the hatred against LGBT to that of the jews, who in the eys of black Americans still fared better then themselves because they too had the luxury of whiteness in which other POC groups did not and could afford to treat other groups the same way mainstream groups did. I'm not quick to fault white gay men/women for finding their niche in the world because the only people who will ever save POC LGBT people are POC LGBT people, and that includes our own image, but I agree that by ignoring the issues other communities face with being queer it has help hinder reaching out to those communities when you have no bridge into them (i.e. queer POC)... and you should have said bridge.

Yeah, again I'm reiterating everything he said, lol.

---

by: saywhat? @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 15:37:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I do tend to forget

that the Blend has a large white audience and that his suggestions are appropriate for that audience. White folks do some things that aren't necessarily "racist" but are "ignorant" (and I am forgiving of the latter)

On the other hand (since I'm black), my tendency is to call some of the bullsh*t smokescreens that black "churched" folks like to throw up exactly what they are--bullsh*t smokescreens.

And i think that the class issue cannot be understated because the black rank-and-file (re: working class, poor) is reacting almost the same way that they do to the "bougies" or the "buppies" (with the exception of the way and the ease with which the race card is played)

---

by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 15:52:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good article

Here's a few of my thoughts.
First no matter what audience you are approaching with a subject they may or may not support, you won't convince 100%. Most sales people would be pleased with their results if 1 in 10 cold calls they made, didn't hang up and swear at them. So having realistic expectations is helpful to salve the hurt of being brushed off,,,,often.

Second is to inform yourself on contemporary leaders in the African American community,and LGBTs, not using 40 year old references of Coretta King or Baynard Rustin, which become hackneyed and shut down communications, just because both sides expect them.

Third sometimes you'll get insulted, and you don't deserve it, and can instantly say you deserve respect.

Fourth in the bridging communications, you are only responsible for YOUR effort, if it's rejected, brush off your esteem, and move on.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 12:02:06 PM CDT

Saw an example on Dr. Phil of all places

Dr. Phil was trying, but he had the pro gay marriage and the anti gay marriage audience members on either side. Onstage, again, were pro gay marriage and anti gay marriage panel members, including Gavin Newsom. When Newsom brought up the struggle of gay marriage rights with interracial marriage in the '60s, an African American woman in the audience became IRATE. She screamed that she can't change being black and how dare they even equate the two struggles. The implication was that gays could change and become part of the norm if they wanted to. I mean, she was IRATE.

We have ALOT of work to do...

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by: Donica @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 14:27:45 PM CDT

Tough!

The bigots used the bible to deny interracial marriage, just as they're using it to deny US our civil rights!

I wonder if that same black lady would react if I said because I can't tell if you're Christian or Muslim or Jewish means it's okay for me to discriminate against her for that!

I can't change me being trans AND lesbian either, dearie, and just because you don't see "DYKE" in large letters on my forehead doesn't mean it's okay to discriminate against me!

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!

---

by: Marlene @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 20:13:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I would stress the concept of ALLIES

ALL minorities have had to depend on other minorities watching their backs. Even the disenfranchaised women in the feminist movement needed allies, from diverse groups.
This plays to another minorities SELF INTERESTS.
We don't have to agree day to day with various strategies, but when ONE is attacked, we must rally to their defense.
Doing less harms all of us.
This was the one factor which angered me to the core at HRC tossing transgendered people under the bus on ENDA.
I don't have to agree with every transgendered leader, but when they are attacked, they deserved our strongest defense.
The actions of allies isn't one act, it is building trust cumlatively act after act after act. I was arguing on HuffPo with a Black woman, and she said where were gays at Jena, and Katrina? Having Katrina effect MY friends, and we lost business for over a year in NOLA, and had to scramble to work out state. We also had Katrina evacuees come stay with us, and I worked at FEMA camps. Then I turned the question back on this woman....WHAT DID YOU DO for Katrina evacuees?

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 16:38:33 PM CDT

I remember that argument at Huff Po

---

by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 16:41:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Are all black opinion leaders off-limits for quoting?

I can see that it might be seen as shallow when a white person quotes Coretta Scott King as evidence that serious-minded blacks are not all of one mind on the topic of LGBT people.

Is it unreasonable to mention "retired"* Archbishop Desmond Tutu as a supporter of LGBT equality? (* although he isn't archbishoping anymore, ++Tutu keeps up a schedule that would wear out someone 30 years his junior)

Leonard Pitts, the popular columnist? He has addressed the topic in his columns. I believe that he has a gay relative.

These are just the first two highly respected black opinion leaders that came to mind as having written something on the topic in the last month or two. There are more, particularly if you count people who have written something in the past few years.

---

by: NancyP @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 20:43:49 PM CDT

I've tried this with Al Sharpton

And the anti-Sharpton comments started flying heavy ("he's in it for Al Sharpton," "what are y'all paying him").

---

by: kevinchi @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 20:52:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sharpton has a sister who is lesbian

As long as someone criticizes a pro-gay black eminent speaker or writer like Sharpton or Pitts, they ought to criticize them for the correct reason, namely, family loyalty.

++Tutu doesn't have much to gain or lose, at this point. He's got his pension. He's speaking his mind because the whole Anglican Communion is in an uproar over one American bishop of a rather tiny diocese (New Hampshire), and there is some jockeying for position among various prelates. It is hard for any Anglican leader to avoid being asked about teh gayz.

---

by: NancyP @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 16:10:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is an important conversation

I agree with Pam that I don't think it's useful to have conversations with people who say that their opposition o LGBT equality and/or marriage equality comes from "the Bible" or their religious beliefs. As an atheist, I don;t see why I should have to argue on terrain which I believe is delusional.

I think making the two points that have been mentioned should suffice:
1) we're talking about civil marriage, and this has no impact on what religions are forced to do in churches
2) denying marriage equality denies the religious freedom of other religions who do support marriage equality



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Mad Professah Lectures http://madprofessah.com
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

---

by: Mad Professah @ Mon Jun 01, 2009 at 23:39:15 PM CDT

Picketing President Obama Is the Wrong Way to Get Blacks to Back Gay Marriage

 Earl Ofari Hutchinson
Picketing President Obama Is the Wrong Way to Get Blacks to Back Gay Marriage

from HuffPo
   http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
discussion is pretty good examples of African Americans and gays butting heads....I'm BoyinBOYCOTT on that site.
several of my posts haven't been published, one did make it through.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 02:28:18 AM CDT

Several of mine got through

I'm the Cynic (diogenes1967).

---

by: kevinchi @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 08:57:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The One thing I had to call out

on that Huff Post thread was that there is a contingent of African Americans for whom any criticism of Barack Obama will be seen as racist. We actually broached the subject a few days ago at Rod 2.0.

---

by: kevinchi @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 09:06:41 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Expand the Debate

Check out this post by Jasmyne Cannick and the comments. They may prove helpful:

What blacks can learn from gays

http://www.jasmynecannick.com/...

---

by: StayWoke @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 02:46:02 AM CDT

missing from Jasmyne's post

What is missing in her commentary is context -- as a Californian, Jasmyne may not have marriage, but she as an almost functional equivalent in place (DPs), and all the other protections - employment, housing, etc. that I don't have here in NC. Right now, being fired for being gay is an economic issue for LGBTs, and that includes black LGBTs. She can easily turn her focus to all the ills affecting the AA community -- our president can and will act on those, I'm not sure that with all the purported "power" in the LGBT community that she refers to will actually turn into any real action.

Marriage as well as other pro-LGBT issues are extremely important to achieve here, and I know I won't see my state do anything about it until federal action is achieved, thus my focus on full equality at the federal level (re: The Dallas Principles).  

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 06:28:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kind of related...

Wonderful post Pam... I actually have quite a curious situation. I attend a small liberal arts college in one of the whitest states in the nation, but the majority of out gay men on my campus are POC. This presents an interesting dynamic --- and I sometimes feel that the predominance of LGBTQ POC destroys the "white is gay" meme that is so prevalent. At the same time, I've noticed that this makes the dearth of out white LGBTQ people (and in at least in my campus's case - white gay males) even more pronounced. I've even felt a little antagonism in terms of "ownership" and issues of inclusion in the LGBTQ community on campus from some people who are white. As if LGBTQ started with people of a white race and stemmed from there...

This all isn't terribly related to the issue of combating homophobia in black communities, but it held certain resonances for me at least, in terms of who is doing the advocating and activism work as representatives of the LGBT community.

---

by: Metric @ Tue Jun 02, 2009 at 11:36:24 AM CDT