Joe.My.God interview: Cleve Jones has permit for March on Washington

The Rainbow of response

I think both are necessary. Those who can go without it being too much of an expense, a million-fag-march would be overwhelmingly awesome. But face it, we're going to win this by pushing in our states. Enough states grant equality, it becomes moot to those resisting elsewhere, and the federal government has to take notice. Or so I've heard. I never did take government in school, so... whatever.

And even more importantly, I wanted to say something: that we can't forget that have the rainbow for a reason:
http://thestumblingblockblog.b...

I'm seeing a lot of people in the LGBT becoming increasingly angry at each other for responding to this in different ways. We are all going to respond to this angering moment in different ways. That's how we know that we are a people and not the Borg. Some will be raged in anger. Some will be apathetic. Some will be level-headed and try calmly and rationally thinking about what's next. Some are still just so grateful we don't have the previous administration or Caribou Barbie doing our leading that they're not yet ready to give up hope on Obama. So for anybody criticizing how someone else reacts to this slap in the face, keep in mind, our differences is our diversity--the very thing we're trying to preserve and protect. I'm not saying we have to become Borg-like and stand together as one like some kind of Stepford Community, but don't do the enemy's work for them by going apeshit on E

We are LGBT. That's four different types right there. I know little about the L, nothing about the T, and only knew a couple of people who identify as B. But in the G alone we've got the str8-acting helium heeled ones, the fems, the young and materialistic ones, the older ones pathetically still trying to hold on to the illusion of youth, the ones happy about their age and maturity, the drag queens, the bears, the spiritual, the angry atheists, the polyamourists, the mongamists, the serial monogamists, the eternally single, the married and family-raising ones, the triad ones, the open-relationship ones, the long-hairs, the skinheads, the Radical Faeries, the Christians, the closeted ones, the out and proud ones ,the out and certifiably insane about their outness ones, and so much more.

We are the world. That rainbow is there for a reason. Please remind people of that.

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by: stumblingblock @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 07:25:39 AM CDT

Either/or?

I'm a bit confused by the "either/or" nature of most of the conversations around this Washington march.  I'm not arguing that we need more efforts at the state levels but what's with all the assumptions that someone supporting the march won't support at the local level too?  Or that a non-march supporter will instead spend $ at the state level?  

The passage of Prop 8 certainly garnered increased activism and involvement AND spending all across the nation, not just in CA.  Are we to think a national march wouldn't do the same?  And for all those who say "been there, done that", I say there's a whole new generation of activists that have not yet been there and done that.  Don't they (we) deserve that collective, energizing experience too?  

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by: WillnDurhamNC @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 07:35:45 AM CDT

The "either/or" discussion is a function of limited time and resources

Time is linear and resources are limited.  Wasting either on a project with undefined goals undermines the movement.

The folks in Maine and Washington state have limited time to do their legwork before the elections on relationship referenda this fall.  Virginia and New Jersey also have general elections this fall (yes, in 2009).   Boots need to be on the ground canvassing on the last holiday weekend before the elections in those four states rather than draining their energy for undefined goals on a lawn in DC.

To bring it home to North Carolina, municipal elections are in October and November and we've got at least two openly gay candidates on local tickets to work for (at the moment the Chapel Hill mayoral race is nearest one to Durham - and no, it's not a shoe-in).

If you have the time and will to send a bus/plane load of energetic people to DC, how 'bout sending it to Virginia, Maine, New Jersey, Washington state, or a local race instead?  They need your energy, will, and time before the elections this fall.

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by: HunterC @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 15:26:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mark Kleinschmidt for Mayor

http://www.new.facebook.com/gr...

Just thought I'd add a link to that Chapel Hill mayoral race you mentioned.

He'd make only the third openly gay mayor to serve in the triangle area (Raleigh, Chapel Hill, Durham - & smaller towns around them) that I'm aware of, and the first one at one of the anchor point cities of the triangle.

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by: Jake Gellar-Goad @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 15:42:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

thanks Pam for daring to speak reason

Reading that Cleve Jones et al. have "secured" a permit solely for the West Lawn of the U.S. Capitol-not the National Mall previously packed by a half million Queers and allies in prior marches-raises further suspicion about the wisdom of this call to action.  Are they settling for a pigeonhole, scrambling for cover, stifling other opportunities, or setting up a march day of pointless drama and chaos?  Still, the permit is low n the list of concerns among those who voice opposition to this event.  Economics and impact analysis, together or alone, indicate that a March On Washington is the wrong vehicle at the wrong time for airing our grievances and making desperately needed political gains, while localized activism a la the response to Prop H8 can propel our movement faster, more forcefully, and at lower cost.

But back to Jones' claims for a moment....No media spectacular??!!  Oh, PUH-LEEZ, Mary!  The media are how we engage people en masse to change the hearts and minds.  And two hours of a string of the same forty Queers and allies will elict a massive YAWN from the moveable masses and the collective ennui of marchers.  Events go down on the West Lawn on a regular basis with little notice by the national media or DC's local media, but 541 separate local actions featuring the voices of new generations of activists cannot go unnoticed - it's the Shock-and-Awe approach to commanding the public discourse on Queer issues.  Further, the organized homohating movement has rehearsed its responses to our standard bearers and stands ready to bite back at a national march speeches-they are ill-prepared, though, to respond to the thousands of emerging leaders in our movement who can inspire 541 local actions.

Even if one accepts the dubious claim of a $700 DC weekend for people on the West Coast, the best use of Queer money advocates loudly for getting one's activism on at home or through other channel, not in DC.  Even if only 5,000 Queers and allies came from the West Coast, that's $3,500,000 that could otherwise be spent to empower Out candidates and staunch allies against their opponents-enough to secure the mayorship of America's fourth largest city or any of dozens of other offices.  That's not even counting the economic power sucked from Queers to produce a march!  Competent Out elected officials are our first and best line of defense against homophobia enshrined in law, and they need to be our collective preferred political cause, not one-time spectacles.

And there's all of that Queer time wasted on getting to DC for a weekend when Congress is away.  Participating in one of 541 local actions will occupy only a fraction of that time, leaving plenty of time for sharing our stories one-on-one with Congressional home office staff and local media to personalize the plight of Queer Americans.  Strategically executed, two to three weeks of sustained contact between Queer voters and their national and state legislators will cost us nothing but time and have a greater impact on the course of issues than anything we can do this year except for being unabashed Out to everyone in our lives.

My Queer agenda for Columbus Day weekend:
Mow the yard
Dig potatoes
Work out at the gym
Clean house
Make love to my partner
Shop for groceries

My Gay Agenda for the week before and the week after:
Visit with staff of my State Delegate
Visit with staff of my State Senator
Visit with staff of my U.S. Representative (who's got an awesome record)
Visit with staff of U.S. Senator 1
Visit with staff of U.S. Senator 2

Lastly, in response to comments that not having a national march deprives new [younger] activists of an opportunity to organize, get over it.  Really.  Herculean efforts will burn out at least half of those who take leadership and harden many of them against further major activism.  The pantheons of leadership of all civil rights movements are surrounded by the ashes of many times more highly motivated spirits.  Also, the interconnected of communities today is greater than ever through the Internet and media, such that creating a critical mass of inspiration is not required in the physical world---Queer blogs and the response to Prop 8 are proof of that, and you don't need an expensive platform in D.C. to make a huge difference.  Besides, it's going to take many thousands of us to pay the bills for a national march, and I for one am not paying.

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by: greatwhitebear @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 07:55:44 AM CDT

spot on

To me, this March is more like Woodstock 1994 for the Gay Protest Set ie --- it gives the mature gays a taste of The Good Old Days and let's younger gays fantasize that they were apart of those days, when protests of this kind were rare, unique, and before the general populace had learned to ignore and dismiss them.

The youngins' had no problem mobilizing and organizing after prop 8.  Part of what was so revolutionary about the Post Prop Eight protests is that they seemed to happen overnight and they happened everywhere. There was no permit or advanced warning, just people showing up in the streets all over the country --- and that's what got people's attention in a way this march can't even hope to duplicate.

This is Gay MOW #4.  There have been 3 others, so clearly the march isn't accomplishing it's goal anymore.  People point to the 1963 MOW and forget the historical significance of it.  Between 1900 and 1963 (over half the century) there were only 5 marches on washington.  FIVE in 63 years, with the '63 MOW being number 5.

What's happened since then?  In the 44 years following that historic event there have been SIXTY MARCHES ON WASHINGTON. That's more than one a year. At this point, a MOW isn't rare, unique, revolutionary, it's like visiting DisneyLand or DisneyWorld --- just about everybody's done it at this point.

I saw we get Dan Choi and a large group of DADT dismissals to put their uniforms on, and march, unarmed to the pentagon with one message and one message only:  "REPORTING FOR DUTY, SIR!"  Imagine the image of all those soldiers ready for work, and being denied, possibly arrested for (of all things)showing up to work.  That's powerful, that's unique, that's something that will get people's attention in a way this MOW can't.

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by: PunkZanyJ @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 21:51:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We already march for pride....

I'm not opposed to the idea of a march in Washington, and would certainly consider going.  However, there are going to be marches spread throughout the country all June.  I'm not sure how a national march is different than Pride, with the exception that the DC march will be explicitly political.

Pride marches rose as a very political act.  Perhaps a more effective use of our would be to recapture the defiant spirit of earlier pride marches.  We need to remind local media that pride isn't just about celebrating who we are, but also about fighting the very real discrimination that we face and local, state and federal levels.

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by: eastsidekate @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 08:19:45 AM CDT

i just want an explanation

of how effective a demonstration in Washington can be when congress will be out of session at the time.

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by: timNC @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 08:23:33 AM CDT

If financially

one can do this, great- fine. And if some of my pals want to return to DC, I'll help support them.

But frankly, Washington STATE needs more direct and immediate attention and support than Washington DC.

Washington STATE is this year, as is Maine- DC is going to give results... when, exactly?

I do understand the long-term chessboardesque strategy that Jones is trying to accomplish, but I also think he's forgetting that done right, even lowly pawns can cause a checkmate.


Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

Click here for DADT photobook

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by: Louise @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 08:37:59 AM CDT

Just my $0.02

I would rather, at this moment, see Cleve and his merry band of Labor allies get with the Equality folks in Washington and Maine immediately than see him focus his efforts on a march no one will pay attention to because marches on the Mall are a dime a dozen and no one will be in town that day, anyway.

Louise and Lurleen, if your Equality organizations have not already allied themselves with local Unions...get them there. Find out who your most powerful Unions are and hop on into bed with them. Labor has been a queer ally since Harvey's time, and we need to continually nourish that tie.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 16:28:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm more inclined to want to do one

but I still have major reservations about the timing for this one.

I am the lizard queen!

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by: RainbowPhoenix @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 09:23:03 AM CDT

More chance of going than not

After the despicable states equating marriage equality to promoting incest, the backpedaling on DADT and the silence on our other issues, I am raging enough to go to DC. But we have Ref 71 to fight here. But oh, how the idea of taking my rage to the source tempts me!

"Any transition serious enough to alter your definition of self will require not just small adjustments in your way of living and thinking but a full-on metamorphosis."

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by: thehawke @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 09:59:58 AM CDT

I agree with Cleve. . .

Here's what he said, "Many of the the people opposing this march are the same people pushing for a repeal of Prop 8 in 2010." Jones questioned the wisdom of continuing to fight local battles for LGBT rights, saying, "It's just an endless state by state, city by city, county by county battle could go on for decades at enormous cost. But if we could shift our focus and seize this historic moment and get federal legislation, get SCOTUS [on our side], we could end it all at the federal level. People in leadership seem so invested in an incredibly long, local level, deeply impermanent struggle. We should be saying, 'Enough of this, we demand full equality under civil law.' We should be marching, engaging in nonviolent civil disobedience every day. We have a window, but it's already starting to close. If you think you're going to get anything out of Obama in the second half of his term, you don't know anything about political history. In a year, he'll be in full re-election mode. It's so clear that Obama and the Democratic leadership are turning their backs on us. If we don't go for it now, we'll get nothing. It's beginning to smell a lot like Clinton."

And I agree - as long as this fight for equal rights stays on the fringes (little bits of state and local rights) the target at the heart of the issue, federal discriminatory statutues, will remain intact and continue to harm us. It's time to up the ante.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

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by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 10:37:07 AM CDT

how exactly does the march impact SCOTUS or POTUS?

There are many many ways to impact federal legislation. A gathering of a few hundred thousand people is only one such tactic, and NOT the most effective.

Have you seen the profile of donors to LGBT organizations??  The vast majority of LGBT people donate NOTHING to groups and I believe the average donation is $40 (c.f. Movement Advancement Project at http:///www.lgbtmap.org). If just 50% of the people who would spend $700 to go to DC in October would send $400 to Washington State and Maine instead we would be assured of winning those initiative battles.  


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Mad Professah Lectures http://madprofessah.com
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

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by: Mad Professah @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 11:27:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well that's great for Washington and Maine

but what about the other 42 states (the six with marriage equality plus WA and ME)? And fighting a battle for civil unions in Washington state is, I say again, asking for crumbs. And besides that, the polls show an average support of 57% for civil unions in Washington. Referendum 71 will fail even with minimal effort from pro-lgbt efforts. I can see putting money into Maine where the polls show fairly even support.

The goal of conservatives is to keep the marriage issue at a lower level of visibility - at the state/local level where popular vote is on their side. The goal of democrats is to keep the marriage issue at a lower level of visibility - at the state/local level where it does not get in the way of their other agendas.

It's time to push the issue higher up - we won't get anywhere substantial with the state by state strategy.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

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by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 13:24:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's bizarre that this is the first obvious suit based on 14th Amendment grounds

I'm going to send my money to American Foundation for Equal Rights, because this battle is going to last 100 years without a suit going to SCOTUS.  Even if we lose once or twice, the precedent of Loving V. Virginia claims that marriage is a fundamental human right based on the 14th.

The endless miniature battles are draining us at a PERSONAL and SPIRITUAL level, too.  Even in states that do allow DP coverage, you will pay COBRA rates for your partner's insurance, unlike the heteros.  Just trying to get DP benefits for my partner and deal with the Human Resources dept. in a closed room rather than checking a box like my other colleagues was intensely draining.  

Too bad the fundies can't find a new bogeyman to spend money trying to extinguish as a distraction.  Even immigration and terrorism can't get their yaps to stop about the homosexualists.  Surely we could all put our fabulous minds together and beat them at their own game by creating something worse than homosexuality to focus on.  

I mean, for real.  What about urban anarchists?  They're so hip and skinny they could scare the pants off of the Walmart anti-gays.  Take some pictures of Critical Mass and anarchy signs around your town, and start leaking these to Beck, O'Reilly, and Limbaugh with fears of how Web 2.0 can instantly create civil disobedience right inside those internet machines.   Be sure to sign your email, American Patriot (or major dittos if it's to Rush).   It wouldn't hurt to try :)

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by: blakelight @ Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 10:47:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The North Eastern states.

Even if the march only draws LGBT's from the North eastern states it will have a huge turnout.  NYC is just a few hours away by car including Philadelphia.  I am furious at the language coming from President Obama's man Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division of the Department of Justice, Tony West writer of the stinky brief.  I did a google check and his mother is a Methodist pastor, not that this brands them as a complete homophobic black family, but it raises red flags with me in view of the legal language.  If it is true, they need to be educated by Julian Bond of the  NAACP.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

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by: CharlesMerrill @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 10:39:09 AM CDT

Obama's DOMA brief didn't turn back time (at least, not literally).

It is impossible to arrange an effective MOW for October in mid-June.  It just is.  It's impossible to walk to the moon, it's impossible for Adam Lambert to pass for straight, and it's impossible for private citizens to put together a national multi-day event with full media coverage over a national holiday for what they hope will be at least hundreds of thousands of people in five months.

It looks like this MOW is going to happen.  That's a shame.  What time and money that is going to be put into it could do some actual good in countless other ways.

How many people in this economy can afford or budget a weekend in DC with less than half a year to save for it?  If you live out West, aren't well-off and don't know anybody in DC, you're not going.  And will anybody come from New England when they've got work to do there?

I wish Cleve Jones had chosen a less-impactful vanity project for his big comeback.  

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by: diablorobotico @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 10:54:33 AM CDT

and of course

Like the "Day Without A Gay"
they'll blame the ineffectiveness and low turnout on the critics rather than admitting the idea was half baked to begin with.  

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by: PunkZanyJ @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 21:53:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's politically mindboggling

Obama admin turning against us and former white male GOP operatives on our side representing us in a Constitutional legal case.    Scratching my head.  Reaching for my blood pressure pills.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

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by: CharlesMerrill @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 11:00:32 AM CDT

Oh, well, if it's just $700!

Please. Did no one mention to him that the economy--especially in California--sucks right now? The last thing we need is for this march to be perceived as being driven solely be the interests of rich white guys.

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by: Darkrose @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 11:44:10 AM CDT

You win the argument and the thread

I cannot add a word to 'it's just $700'.

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 17:31:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I know!

I live just outside chicago, which is considerably cheaper than CA and $700 is almost my rent check.  Yeah, I'll just not pay my rent this month so I can go to a march in washington to feel good and get organized.

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by: PunkZanyJ @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 21:55:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Because it's impossible to feel good and get organized over...

... I don't know, say -- the Internet???

Cleve Jones apparently thinks it's still 1976.  It isn't.  Activism doesn't work the same way it did thirty years ago.

I literally don't know anybody who knows if they're going to have a job in four months and we're all supposed to spend a weekend in Washington because Cleve Jones said so?  In order to do a fraction of the good we could do from sitting in front of our computers?  No -- not going to happen.

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by: diablorobotico @ Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 02:40:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not Now.

Not until a groundswell can be assembled into such a march.  If such a march of people is to impress our government, and the American people, rather than amuse same, then it must be huge, with momentum.

The potential for having this turn against us is huge.

Hate stops a beating heart.

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by: KarenS @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 11:49:35 AM CDT

Heck yeah I'll go!

After the DOMA brief you better believe I'll march.  And you better believe I'll be supporting anyone in 2010 that will oppose our asshole-in-chief and his democratic friends.  Our president just might have pushed me to the republican party...at least they tell me to my face what they think of me.  

Megan McCain 2012!

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by: belenus25 @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 13:12:01 PM CDT

I see a lot of "somebody should"

organize local events or state capital events on the day, but not a lot of "I am" organizing an event in my area on the same day.

Prop 8 protests happened everywhere, even though the one's in CA & DC probably had more of a national feel to them... no reason this DC event couldn't be just one of many events that day... well no reason except we don't have enough "I am"

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by: Jake Gellar-Goad @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 13:12:23 PM CDT

I am. . .

Nick and I are looking into chartering a bus to take a whole group of people from Connecticut to DC for the march. Drive down in the morning, march, and drive back that night. No hotels needed, no parking issues, etc.

There are lots of ways to make the march a success w/o spending gobs of money (yes, some money will be needed). It's not a pride festival - it's a friggin' civil rights struggle.

Here's a few examples:
1) Use the internet to set-up hotel room sharing interface - the Obama campaign did it last year (like carpooling).
2) Use the internet to set-up car pools, bus charters, etc.
3) Ditch the fancy stage for a bare-bones platform.
4) Speakers (especially Hollywood types) should be asked to pay for their own travel expenses - its not like they can't afford it.
5) Local activists/agencies can arrange local transportation sharing.
ETC.


Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

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by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 13:46:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The March is happening either way

The March is on. The permit is in place. It's happening. Whether you like it or not. Period.

So instead of criticizing it, complaining about it and second guessing it, why not support it. HRC, NGLTF, etc. should be realizing that the question of whether to have a march or not is past tense.

These national LGBT advocacy orgs should realize that lots (and lots) of people are frustrated with the "corporate" approach they have taken (i.e. the criticism of the prop 8 campaign). The winds are changing, grassroots is growing and its time for HRC and the like to jump on board and help make the march a success, rather than chip away at its potential.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

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by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 13:33:21 PM CDT

Except that "grassroots" usually means local involvement in local affairs

where the local people know the lay of the land.

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by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 14:23:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

bad logic

"So instead of criticizing it, complaining about it and second guessing it, why not support it."

because we're not sheep.

Or, to be blunt.  I'm not going to eat shit and pretend it's ice cream.  This is a bad idea, and whining that I should support a bad idea just because it's happening is a rather juvenile defense.

Be sure to send us all a text message when Obama flys into the middle of the march and says "Gosh guys, I had no idea.  Color me stupid!  Okay, my bad, here's your rights!"

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by: PunkZanyJ @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 21:58:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You send me the money I'd need in order to attend Cleve's march and then we'll both be supporting it.

Until then, don't ask for a sacrifice of money (and time) from me that I'm not willing to make for an idea that's not going to work.

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by: diablorobotico @ Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 02:49:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pam's Question

Pam's actual question is "Q of the Day - does the anger over the administration's DOMA brief affect your view of the march or not?"

My answer is yes. It's like that president from the past (can't remember which one) who said something like I agree with you, now make me do it. We need to apply the pressure on a national level while the "stars" are aligned in our favor. The GOP is in exile, Dems control the senate, the house and the executive office and we have a recent momentum of change (without any significant backlash). And unlike the mid 90's, every LGBT issue, except marriage but including civil unions, has significant majority support in the polls. It's time to push the rock over the top of the hill. We've been pushing up the hill for 4 decades and the politicos (DEMS and GOP) are now trying to make the hill higher rather than let the tide shift.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

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by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 13:56:27 PM CDT

FDR, it's FDR!

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by: kevinchi @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 15:31:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks kevinchi. . .

I thought it was FDR, but too lazy to research it on wiki. So thanks.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

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by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 21:41:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

I don't think A march on Washington will have any particular effect on any particular LGBT policies, any more than the past LGBT Washington marches did; any more than some single march on Washington affected our Viet Nam war policy.  Yes, I've been there done that in both movements, unlike some of the younger members here who understandably want to have THEIR march.

What will have effect, I think, are actions of various kinds throughout the United States -- marches as well as lobby-your-state-legislators days being just two examples. We need a 50-state LBGT policy, being sensitive that what works in New York, for example, will probably not be appropriate for Mississippi.

Right now, I'm hearing what sounds like, "Let's do something, even if it's wrong."

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by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 14:20:03 PM CDT

I agree. . .

It's like we have a choice between the status quo (state by state strategy combined with passive national organizations) or a single march on Washington. I can't effectively advocate for either strategy as the both have serious flaws.

The state by state strategy is painfully slow and only minimally effective (we lose more often than we win). The national march on washington strategy is also not very effective as it is just a march on washington and history tells us that that they don't necessarily work.

But, I advocate for both as I feel it is time to start raising our collective voice on a national level while continuing to fight in each state. What's wrong with doing both? Unless some briliant political strategist has some third option, then a march on washington can't hurt.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

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by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 14:55:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not on October 11! (And probably not at all.)

A march?  Maybe.  But it is senseless to have it when congress is not in session.  

Whoever thinks that someone from the west coast could attend for only $700 is on crack.  I just priced hotels in DC a few days ago, and you have to spend at least $200/night to stay in anyplace that isn't a rathole in a bad part of town.  Unless you have friends you can crash with, you're going to spend more than $700 by the time you count airfare, hotel, transportation, meals, etc. - not to mention money spent on attending other events that will be planned to take place at the same time (see below).

I participated in the last three Marches on Washington (1987, 1993, 2000) and here are two points I haven't seen made in other posts so far - one pro and one con.

Pro:  While the previous marches may not have had any significant impact on congress, SCOTUS or POTUS, they had a huge energizing impact on the attendees.  People went back home and volunteered, started organizations, and did wonderful things.  In 2009, I think we have enough organizations, but we can always use energized people.

Con:  The cost of putting on an event of this nature is huge.  We're talking millions of dollars.  Think of the giant sound systems, the jumbotrons, the security, the portapotties, and everything else.  If this is anything like the past three, there will be dozens or even hundreds of ancillary events - an "Equality Rocks" concert, a Lesbian & Gay Band Association concert, a mass wedding (bad idea, IMHO) and mini-conventions for every sub-community within our community.  The 2000 event was a financial disaster.  They fundraised incessantly for it, still fell short, took out a high-interest loan to cover the shortfall during the days before the event, and then someone stole a large amount of the gate receipts.

I don't see the ROI.  I think it's a bad idea - especially at a time when congress is not in session.

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by: ArizonaDave @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 17:57:12 PM CDT

Front Page Poll, please?

Whether or not a MOW happens this October, these conversations are going to go on incessantly.  With mostly the same people repeating the same points from here on out.

How about someone putting up a front-page poll with two simple choices:  I think a March on Washington in October, 2009 is a good idea. I think a MOW 2009 is not a good idea.

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by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jun 13, 2009 at 22:06:05 PM CDT

Just do it or don't...whats the big deal?

Look, if this were being set up as a do or die, all of us get together and raise all of our collective hell for all of our issues and for each others issues and lets plan the hell out of it and coordinate it with the Obama's re-election and get some real power and media and BANG....

well then we might need to spend time debating and complaining and planning and participating.

But thats not what this is about, apparently.  If this is where Cleve wants to direct his energy for the next 4 months then good for him.  Its not going to cost me anything (unless I go) and at the worst it might be poorly attended, but those who can make it might get something out of it and it might help...

He's got the permit and the website and poster...have a ball.

I don't know why Jones has to march on DC right now, but I cant really expend much time or energy thinking on it...not now.  I'm too pissed at Democrats, Obama and California (and New York) and choose to find out how I can harness that energy into something productive.  

Let him do his thing.  Stop being control freaks.  

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by: Patrick @ Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 01:07:24 AM CDT

control freaks?

Uh, nobody is demanding he not march, nor is anyone doing anything to prevent him from marching.

At most, people have valid questions about the goal and effectiveness of the March either as a whole or given the specific circumstances.

Your comment is pretty good until you get to your "Stop being control freaks" part.

This is a discussion, one that needs to happen.  If you can't handle discussion without jumping to the conclusion of calling people control freaks, I really think you have A LOT of growing up to do.

This is what adults do, they talk, they discuss, they debate, they weigh the pros and cons -- it's healthy, and it's a very American way to handle things.

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by: PunkZanyJ @ Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 08:30:33 AM CDT

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some discuss some control

I said it mostly as an observation more than a judgment.  As a few other comments have stated, Jones seems determined and there are many people that are psyched about a DC rally.  

Too much stringency (in comments anyway) sounds like admonishment and/or discouragement directed at people that seem committed to the idea - or at least the spirit of it.

Directing too much "tsk tsk don't you have anything better to do?" sounds more like controlling than discussion to me.  

By criticizing the discussion I think I'm contributing...am I saying that it can't be discussed???  

Consider my "control freak" remark as cautionary words...sometimes I think I can manage everyone to achieve the outcome I demand...and I forget that MY way sometimes isn't the ONLY way...or the right way...or the only right way.  

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by: Patrick @ Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 09:37:39 AM CDT

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I am absolutely discouraging people from doing this because we're at a time when we can't afford to squander time, money, or momentum.

There will be people who will look at Cleve's march when it's over and conclude that it was the best we could do and it didn't do anything.  There will be people whose only investment in our civil rights will be spending the time and money to go to Cleve's march, which will do nothing to forward our progress on civil rights.  There will be non-LGBT people who will point to Cleve's march to "prove" that we're not really serious or that we're totally disorganized or that we have no power.

I'm telling people to go if they must, but please don't go if you're thinking that by going you've done your part.  Especially please don't go if the money you spend on that is money you're taking away from actually helping.  And, if you must go, please make up that time you've lost by volunteering locally to actually help your community.

That's not being controlling -- unlike Cleve's ability to make people obey his whims, I have zero control over anybody -- that's just sound advice.

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by: diablorobotico @ Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 11:52:22 AM CDT

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