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An Online Magazine in the Reality-Based Community.



The Advocate "Gays Up" A Transgender Woman For A "Same Sex Marriage" Story

by: Autumn Sandeen

Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 18:30:00 PM EDT



I'm going to comment on a story that we, even here at Pam's House Blend, referred to as a same-sex marriage in our piece NY: officials duped into granting marriage license to same-sex couple.

I'm angry regarding how this story is being covered. This is not a same-sex marriage story; this is a transgender person not being able to marry the one she loves story. This is a story about why marriage equality is more than a gay and lesbian story; part of why marriage equality is a lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community civil rights issue.

If the couple in question technically was a same-sex couple, then for sure this couple are definitely not a same-gender couple. This was a marriage between a man and a woman where the state doesn't recognize the woman as a woman.

But at least in one example, it seems that even the LGBT media is gaying up this relationship by using male pronouns, using the male legal name of the female partner in this opposite gender couple, and putting the female name of the female person of the opposite gender couple in quotation marks. From The Advocate (emphasis added):

Two men fooled the New York City Clerk's office into certifying what is believed to be the first same-sex marriage performed in the state, reports the New York Post, which published the couple's photo on its front page on Sunday.

Hakim Nelson and Jason Stenson were married in a ceremony at the clerk's office on May 26, 10 days after obtaining a marriage license at the office. Same-sex marriage is illegal in New York, although the state recognizes same-sex marriages performed elsewhere.

Nelson, 18, and Stenson, 21, said that when they applied in person for the license, Nelson used a state benefit card that lists his sex as female. The clerk did not ask him about the male-sounding first name -- Hakim -- that appears on his identification. He wore an orange dress and white leggings, with his hair falling at his shoulders.

Nelson goes by the name "Kimah" and hopes to have transition surgery one day. Stenson views Nelson as a woman, and does not consider himself gay.

So, the LGBT publication The Advocate now refers to pre-operative transsexual women as men. I'm a pre-operative transsexual woman myself, who was referred to as transgender in The Advocate just last week: was it a fluke that The Advocate didn't refer to me as "Mr. Autumn Sandeen?"

Obviously, I'm seething over this. Let me clearly state in less than judicious terms what my opinion on the LGBT publication The Advocate not following the Associated Press's, GLAAD's and/or the NLGJA's guidelines of referring to transgender people by their target gender:

F*ck you, Advocate.

Don't gay up a transgender person's wedding. If the LGBT press wants to use this marriage to make the point that marriage equality is more than just about gays and lesbians, then fine. Want to identify a transgender woman as a man to make it a same-sex marriage story? That is just not acceptable in the slightest.

Advocate, you should know better. When you showed disrespect to Kimah and her gender identity, you also showed disrespect to me, and all other trans women. I couldn't feel more maddened and offended about how your publication reported on this story then if your goal was to personally antagonize me.

Below the fold: A letter from the Alabama Gender Alliance on how The Advocate covered this story.

Autumn Sandeen :: The Advocate "Gays Up" A Transgender Woman For A "Same Sex Marriage" Story
Dear Editor -

Regarding this article: N.Y. Unwittingly Marries "Same-Sex" Couple

Here you have a self-identified transgender person, and you have refused to honor that person's affirmed gender, making the bigoted editorial choice to Kimah a man and to apply the masculine pronouns "he" and "him".

You should know better. How are we to achieve liberation when our own publications mistreat us?

It's time for me to renew my subscription. Guess you don't need my money after all.

I'm copying GLAAD. Clearly, you need to re-read their media guide. I'm also copying NCTE and every major trans blog.

You owe Kimah an apology.

J D 'Ox' Freeman
President
Alabama Gender Alliance

~~~~~
Related:
* Marriage Equality Beyond Just Gays And Lesbians
* Question At The Marriage Chapel: "Are you a transsexual?"
* NCLR's Shannon Minter at the Cali Transgender Leadership Summit: "Sure! I am a transgender man."
* Taking A Short Break To Think About Freedom To Marry
* Writing A Toast; Being A Maid Of Honor

.

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Wow. That is seriously fucked.
Just when I'd started to think that trans erasure by gays was a thing of the past. Just when I'd started to think the concept of "gender identity" had finally caught on in the LGB(t) world. This is about as fucked up as it can get. Damn.

I'm not sure if I'd expect any better from a right-wing yellow journalism rag like the New York Post, though they deserve a hearty "fuck you" for this too, for flouting the AP guidelines about gender identity. But the Advocate? This was the most unkindest cut of all. Et vos, gays?

Hound them until they prominently publish an abject retraction AND apology.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls


The Advocate is actually "The Daily Mattachine"
so it really does not surprise me at all. I am amazed that they have not partnered with Murdoch yet.

That said, I am tired of their continuous concserva-queer battering, belittling, minimizing and marginalising the rest of the LGBT community.

Perhaps it is due for a public protest?

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid


[ Parent ]
I was thinking about earlier today when I first saw this article.
We have a long way to go, obviously.

The Cis-GLB do, you mean.
The transfolks are already going there.

Its People like the Advocate's editors that have a long way to go.

And its not all that much a stretch to say that they shouldn't have it that way.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
What is cis-GLB? I get the general meaning, but what does "cis" stand for?
Thanks!

[ Parent ]
non-trans
nothing more.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
What is their motivation?
I don't understand what the Advocate has to gain out of misrepresenting this story in that way?  It could be a great teachable moment about the universality of marriage equality... why not tell it that way... you know... the truth?

Spin
They want to spin it as a same sex marriage item, using it to highlight inequities.

Sad part is, it would be even more powerful to do it using transfolk, who can marry in New York. Unfair, anyone?

Rather asinine.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Nelson goes by the name "Kimah" and hopes to have transition surgery one day.
What is transition surgery?

I know what transition is.

I know what reassignment surgery is.

I only know one person who waited until after surgery to transition (lied about transition to psychologists and surgeons - it didn't end well). I know many who transitioned six months or more before surgery, and many who transitioned and never had surgery.




Claim to fame: Posted first PHB diary to be demoted


No kidding
How the hell long is that surgery?

Thanks for pointing it out, I never would have noticed.


[ Parent ]
How long is that surgery?
I don't remember.  I slept through the whole thing...

Hate stops a beating heart.

[ Parent ]
Right on, Autumn!
Thank you for writing this post and making a point that was not being connected in my reading of this story.

I saw it posted at Towleroad over the weekend and something didn't sound right...and you nailed it for me - for us.

This is a transgender story and that is as plain as the nose on my face and it should be made widely known.  


Surgical status
is never anyone else's business, imo.

That was why I linked Jennifer Finney Boylan's NYT op-ed entitled "Is My Marriage Gay?" She was married for years and transistioned in 2002 or 2003. Her marriage was and continues to be legally recognized. But what if she were to divorce her wife and want to remarry, even to the same woman?

Currently here in Maine, she would have to wait until the "People's Veto referendum sword" was no longer hanging over their heads.


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Its also covered under HIPPA
Making it a crime if she didn't reveal it herself.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Calm down
first of all, when did this become a tranny site?

second, i thought you wanted to be included as "part of the family".  

third, you seem to have a lot of hostility toward "the gays".  not nice.


Thank you for admitting to be part of the problem
Now, would you mind terribly becoming part of the solution?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
I totally agree dyssonance
I for one don't appreciate being called a tranny. I am a transsexual women, but not a tranny. I personally don't have any hostility toward the LG community as a whole, but the ones that disrespect our community needs to be called out. I think the Blend is a fare mix of the community. At least it's covering the T part of the community. I've seen to many that claim to cover LGBT issues but never see the T represented. I for one appreciate Pam for being fare in her reporting of the whole community.

[ Parent ]
Check your calendar
April Fools was quite awhile ago; I can only hope you mean using that word as a poorly thought out joke.

Whether or not that was your intent, your usage is offensive and unacceptable.

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[ Parent ]
Fuck You. Sideways.


God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

[ Parent ]
Hivemind.

With a pine cone.

Are you talking about what it is you know, or just repeating what it was you heard?

Grace Slick

www.anonymous-t-girl.blogspot.com


[ Parent ]
Don't expect much support here --
Even us cis-gendered folks at the Blend tend to mostly not have our heads completely up our asses on trans issues.  Maybe you should try going to The Advocate instead?

[ Parent ]
Nah.
They should stick around.

And learn the same thing.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Ugh. What a hateful comment. First of all, even I know that "tranny" is an offensive term.
Second, you must not know much about this site or Autumn if you think she has hostility toward gay folks.

Go rethink your attitude.


[ Parent ]
I'm with you Autumn
This entire story really goes beyond the reasoning powers of most.  This isn't a gay issue, but you can bet str8 media will be even more offensive in their portrayal of Kimah's gender.

Keep on educating everyone (including GLB folks) and remember some of us gays are trying to think outside the box.


Unbelievable
A major publication like the Advocate not addressing trans folk correctly.  Talk about taking a few steps back. Especially since seens that some in the GLBT community forget about the T.  This is an excellent example of that.

But then again, I question the ownership of the Advocate.  I believe they also own a bunch of "fish wrap" weeklys like the New Times here in Phoenix.  

I am hoping that I will marry my honey some day and I hope I will be able to do it in California.  

Cross your fingers until then.

=m


Any chance they'll issue
a retraction or apology or correction?

[ Parent ]
I'mgoing to be my usual self here and say...
No.

If they do, it will be because they got enough crap about it to make it seem like a good idea.

One of the best things about the recent issues with KRXQ's morning show was that they actually apologized, and they did it well, and they did it the way that counts.

To date, however, no major body that has ever insulted transfolk from within the greater community has ever done such a thing.

THe HRC has never apologized for any of its actions.  The Blades never have.  THe advocate has no willingness to do so.

Its "oops, I didn't mean to offend" or " I just didn't know", or "you need to do more educating" despite, every single day, transfolks doing a crapload of educating.

No.  No more excuses, no more chances, and either get it right or we will educate you in ways that are no longer happy and smiley.

We will apply the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  And when others do unto us insults, appropriation, and outright cruelty, we will give them what they have asked for.

fun, huh?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
WOW
Being relatively new, I did not know the historic nature of the broadcast. Thank you, dyssonance.

(btw, I've linked your site on my Wordpress and started reading...)

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[ Parent ]
I'm not defending anyone
since obviously, as reporters, the Advocate needs to do their homework, and in this case, a better job of it.

However, within the gay and lesbian population, there's lots of ignorance about the trans community. We're grouped together as LGBT a lot, but in reality, we still need to learn a helluva lot more about each other. As a gay man, and as an activist, this became very apparent to me when working with the trans population in LA.  I've gone out of my way to do research because I felt it was my responsibility since we're all struggling to reach the same goal - equality.

I went to my trans friend awhile ago and flat out asked him numerous questions, (and he was happy to oblige) but mainly, the questions were about jargon and language, and coming from a place of wanting to educated. Such as, "Is it inappropriate to phrase it this way? Or that way? What's the best way? What does this mean? If you're FTM and dating a male, are you a gay trans? ETC."

I believe many in the lesbian and gay community don't intend to offend, they just don't know. (And if they do intend to offend, it's obvious.)

In regards to this story, I believe the Advocate was wrong. Gender should never be based simply on the physical, but how the individual identifies. Someone could easily say to me, "Well, physically, you're straight because you could have sex with a woman if you wanted." But I'm not. I'm gay and have sex with men. And just as my trans friend is pre-op, I don't see him as a woman. I see him as a man. Because that's who he is.


Count me as one those
who is entirely stupid about "transgender issues." (and even that sounds somewhat insensitive to me).

I mean, if I had the nerve to call out other Blenders about their lack of participation on race issues, then I need to hold myself to the same standard on trans issues.

You name it as far as trans, I get confused by it, even something as simple as pronoun usage.

Still, if the Advocate knew what to do and didn't do it, that's just seriously fucked up.


[ Parent ]
Then ask, hon.
That's all it takes.

You can ask me. Publicly, privately, via email, via facebook, via here, via my blog.

Ask -- yeah, it takes effort on your part. But not so much.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Everything kev said
goes same for me... and believe me, I WILL ask.

Would far rather ask and learn, than not ask and never learn.

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[ Parent ]
One of the resaons I like the Blend
is because I can get view points from all sides of our community. We can all learn from that diverse set of view points. In the last few years I've been reading more LGBT blogs and news sites (not just Trans sites) and I've learned things I didn't know years ago. And I've never backed down from questions or a change to educate, so ask away as long you don't mind questions asked back, lol.

[ Parent ]
I know I don't mind

Michelleny914, most of my trans peers and I don't mind answering even uncomfortable questions if they're asked in a respectful way.

It's kind of the difference between asking a lesbian if she uses hot dogs to get herself off, or asking the same lesbian how she and her peer lesbians engage in intimate sex. The question about the hot dog would be offensive because it's personal, and doesn't take into account how you might not like to be asked about your personal sex habits in graphic terms. Asking questions in a less personal way that respects a person's privacy -- and her right not to answer the question if it's too personal -- is always preferred.

So, as a first lesson, don't ask a transman or a transwoman if he or she has had genital surgery. Just as the medical histories of non-trans people wouldn't be the subject of discussions by non-intimate friends and aquaintences, so too should the medical histories of trans people be respected. If you're going to become sexually intimate with a trans person, then the shape of their genitalia is appropriate for discussion. :)

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Thing is, publishers have guidelines...
that deal specifically with this.

If they're following their own industry's guidelines about how to refer to individuals in the paper, then they KNOW.

Choosing not to comply with industry standards is their fault, by commission or ommission.


[ Parent ]
Can this be a teaching moment?
I feel like it's unlikely that anybody over at The Advocate is rubbing their hands together in glee at their trans-erasure, but there was a serious cognitive gap in the reporting of this story that seems more telling (at least to me) in terms of ignorance than malice.

Are anger and threats the best course of action? Maybe there is something about The Advocate that I don't know (in fact, I'm sure there is) but this could be a teaching moment.

If an attempt to educate is spurned and teaching is not working, than protest is a good idea, but in my humble experience as a minor community organizer, anger is an insufficient motivator long term.

Can this be an opportunity to have a better community through education and communication?


The advocate claims GLBT
That's four letters.

The onus to learn is on them. We're here, and all they have to do is ask.  IT is not up to us to go knock and their doors.

We did that already.  40 years ago.

Time for them to knock on ours.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
EXACTLY
The trans population started the LGBT rights movement. 40 YEARS AGO. We have a thing or two to learn from THEM.  

[ Parent ]
Placing Blame is Not Productive
We could sit here and point fingers, who should know about these things (everyone IMHO) vs. who's an ass etc. But that's not going to get The Advocate to adhere to AP standards on Gender.

Do you think that MLK stood up and said "Hey, we should have equal rights" and everybody else just went "yeah, seems fair"? It's a constant struggle to build a community that counts all it's members, and if we sit here grumbling in the back of the bus, we'll never make it to the front.  


[ Parent ]
It's not like the Advocate hasn't been there over...
and over, and over again.  Who can forget their ballot for the 40 heroes of the past 40 years?  Trans people and their allies (and lets not get started about non heteronormitve LGB folks) have been constantly on their case about trans erasure and outright transphobia.  We've told the Advocate about trans issues, and they haven't listened.

[ Parent ]
seriously?!
I guess we expect too much from The Advocate. Though I must say I didn't realize that expecting some basic decency and attention to detail from a news source, especially from one of "our own," is "too much".

Glad I stopped my subscription a while ago. But I expected them to draw some conclusions about their ever-declining readership. But they seem far away from that if they do stories like that one. Pathetic.


What is the person's legal sex?
Doesn't New York have a standard way to determine a person's legal sex?  Presumably, since Nelson used "a state benefit card" to convince the clerk it was a legal male-female marriage, Nelson's driver's license still had the legal sex as male.  Usually, the driver's license record is the official legal sex.  There should certainly be one authoritative "legal sex" document, which may or may not be that person's originally assigned sex or their most-likely-to-be-fertile-as sex - we can't just let people have contradictory multiple legal sexes, people have to be one or the other.  If Nelson's legal sex was Male, then the Advocate is right in referring to this as a same-sex marriage, and to Nelson as a he, even if he is presenting as a woman and got some document saying he is a woman.  If Nelson is legally female, though, then she should certainly be allowed to marry a person that is legally male.

Whether that means a couple has a right to attempt to procreate together using genetically modified gametes is a different question.  The public right to procreate is based on the public legal sex.  A legal man and a legal woman should have a legal right to procreate, a legal same-sex couple should not.  But if privately it would require genetic modification to attempt what is essentially same-sex procreation, then the couple is privately barred from procreating, even if they publicly can claim a right to.  They are just another infertile couple, for their own private reasons.  A legal sex change, or a mis-assignment at birth, should not create a right to attempt same-sex conception.


Female, based on the various stories.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
I doubt it, because otherwise they wouldn't have "duped" the clerk
And they're calling it the first same-sex marriage, when surely there have been many legal marriages of legally transitioned people.

[ Parent ]
That's part of why its so horribly offensive.
That's like saying I duped my boyfriend into thinking I was a girl.

ANd yet, there are many -- including in the GLB community -- who say such. ANd even more who think it.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Genetically modified gametes??? Same-sex conception???
Did everybody else not understand this post, or was it just me?

On-topic: add my voice to the ones that are utterly horrified that the Advocate would publish such a thing.  Why is gender the one thing it seems everybody thinks they can dictate to other people?  I'll take the other person's word for it, thanks.  I would assume they'd know better than me.


[ Parent ]
"Scrambled egg" troll
I remember this one from long ago- used to go by another name and switched to this user name last year.

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[ Parent ]
Nothing to see here, folks. Just keep walking.
Troll Alert:

I believe our old friend John Howard (the Ham and Eggs guy) is back.

Troll Alert^


[ Parent ]
Jesus H. TAPDANCING Christ
Not you again.

OH, JOHN HOWARD, NO!

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
Heh!
If I didn't already love your comments, I'd love you for the John Ringo reference ;)

[ Parent ]
Just say NO to the Advocate
This is precisely why I am glad my house is void of all newspapers and magazines for the most part.  Haven't subscribed to the Advocate in YEARS.  Recently bought a pair of shoes online and was offered a free subscription to Details, and even that pissed me off with the 2nd issue.

It was about this mayor of a town in Oregon -- the first elected "transgender" mayor or some such shit.  But upon reading the article, he didn't identify as a woman.  He just was a cross-dresser.  And they kept harping on the "transgender" aspect.

Was I missing something here?  Sorry I veered off-topic a bit but it just flashed through my mind.


CD's are transgender
So yeah, you were missing something there.

He isn't transsexual, however.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Thanks.
I'm with you now.  I momentarily ignored my own philosophy that no one is 100% male of female, but there is a gray area on the continuum in which one can be more comfortable in women's clothing even though they are male and identify as male and are therefore transgender.

I think I have been so absorbed with people who have deeper issues in terms of identifying with the other gender and those who have to go through the process, that I just wanted to write off a man who identifies as male and prefers to wear women's clothing as not really having the full throttle experience to qualify as transgender.

My bad.

I still don't like Details though.  Fluff.  Nothing but advertising.


[ Parent ]
Can't fault ya for the bit on details, lol
And don't feel bad -- Some days I wonder myself, since, to be frank, I don't "get" crossdressing.

Then again, I don't need to.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Actually, that mayor identifies as a heterosexual man, dresses (very stylishly) as a woman, and has breast implants.
I have no problem accepting him as a heterosexual man, but when you start having surgery, are you really "just" a transvestite anymore?

[ Parent ]
Note that I didn't say he was a transvestite.
Transvestite is a pretty limited term very narrowly defined today.

He is a cross dresser.

But there are many transvestites who do indeed start having surgery. Nose jobs, breast augs, just like DQ's/FI's do.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I never equated breast augmentation on a self-identified man with a nose job before...
... but when you just did, it instantly made perfect sense.  It's all cosmetic, and "means" as much as the way he styles his hair.

You learn something new every day.


[ Parent ]
That parts cosmetic
The GRS, though, that's deeper.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Exactly.
And that's the difference.  I totally get that now.

[ Parent ]
!

In several ways.

i'd hope so, anyway...

Are you talking about what it is you know, or just repeating what it was you heard?

Grace Slick

www.anonymous-t-girl.blogspot.com


[ Parent ]
Google
I just Googled "transgender" and it does list cross-dressing as a "transgender identity."  But still, I can't be the only one who has questioned that.

[ Parent ]
It's maddening...
From the NY Post saying of Kimah that "he lied" and said he was a transsexual -- uh, WTF? -- to Towleroad once again demonstrating that the white cisgendered male G segment of the LGBT feels no duty to respect the  identity of the rest of the queer spectrum, this story has just been fucked from top to bottom.

Thank you Autumn....
Just getting to Blend after being away a few days.  Saw article on 365 first and I was frustrated how poorly it was even understood, let alone discussed. I just posted some of this as a comment there, because no one seemed to 'get it.'

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


In Agreement with Autumn
Autumn, you make excellent points and I agree with you.

For me, this is one of the reasons why I've always rejected the phrase "LGBT community" (or even more convoluted, LGBTQQIA)

We are not one community. Never have been. And it's OK to say that. It's not a slight to either community.

We are two separate communities with different life experiences and journeys through life. And we should be treated as such.

It aggravates the hell out of me when people in our respective communities (and national non-profits) try to join us at the hip in the name of political expediency with a one-size-fits-all legislative strategy (like for ENDA).

The Advocate article is a perfect testimonial to what I've been saying all along since the early 1990's about blurring the line between sexual orientation and gender identity/expression, and lumping everyone into one big heap.



What about lesbian, gay and bi transgender people?
Aren't they a bridge that brings all the Ls, Gs, Bs and Ts together into one?  I certainly feel my non-op lesbian transsexual friend is in my community and she feels the same way, as do the lesbians she dates.

[ Parent ]
Still seperate communities (just say "no" to the term "LGBT")
Your friend is certainly part of both communities and in some cases there is overlap, just as someone who is Latino and gay, for example.  But that doesn't mean we're all one community. We're not.

Using your reasoning undermines Autumn's claim about "gaying up" a trans person wedding.

I agree with her. But ... it also works the other way too.

As a gay, white guy of European ethnicity (who is not trans), I am not any more a member of the trans community than I am of the Asian community, for example.

Sexual orientation and gender identity and expression are two separate, distinct characteristics in human beings. The two must be treated as such, not just in reporting, but also in legislative strategy, as in ENDA.

Had this thinking prevailed in the early 1990's when activists and national non-profit organizations from the coasts decided to fuse the two movements in an act of political expedience with an all-or-nothing legislative mindset, this thread would be non-existent in The Blend.

(The Stonewall Riots in 1969 don't make a community-- that's a common talking point.)

Remember, before 1993 there was no such thing as the "LGBT" or "GLBT" community. It was simply the "GLB" community.

And now we are seeing the results from the early 1990's of trying to appease vocal, in-your-face activists on the coasts with the concocted term "LGBT" community:  The "gaying up" of a trans person's wedding, to which Autumn is rightfully angry.

The term "LGBT" has long since passed its expiration date. And the time has come to just say "no" to the politically expedient term "LGBT community".

No such community exists. Let's retire the abbreviation once and for all.


[ Parent ]
Nope, sorry
All of us or none of us.

Transgender people suffer from hate and discrimination for the same reason that gay, lesbian, and bisexual people do, which is that misogyny is still a hip cultural norm. The fight here is for people other than cisgendered straight (white) men - gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender people - to have a sexuality and a gender identity and not be punished or shamed for it, socially or legally. That's one of the main reasons we're trans-inclusive at the Blend. That, and we're decent people with a sense of empathy.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
Actually, the word before 1993 was "gay"
For everyone, including the transfolk.

Sorry JJ.  Trans people are the reason you have a shot. And without them, there is none.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
The word was "gay" -- and we should return to that.
You're correct, the word was "gay". And referring to trans folks as "gay" because of their gender identity is wrong. Believe me, plenty of gay people bristle at that too.

It's time we return to using actual words and lose the "LGBT" moniker.

Trans people are not the primary reason sexual orientation civil rights laws are passed. In fact most include only sexual orientation first, then add gender identity years later-- which will most likely happen with ENDA.

Legislatively, gender identity is often a liability when trying to pass gay civil rights protections-- like the vote with ENDA, or what happened here in Illinois years ago, where they morphed gender identity as part of sexual orientation under threat of protest from a few vocal trans activists, just to get it passed.


[ Parent ]
So you're suggesting we treat our trans brother and sisters the way Obama treats us?
I'm better than that. So are the vast majority of the people here.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

[ Parent ]
I don't think so.
I think JJ is suggesting that the cis-GLB do what was done pre-stonewall, and drop the weirdos and ones that don't blend in and make life difficult for the rest so that a few straight acting mattachine types can get their rights while transfolks have to keep fighting.

Because JJ doesn't get it, yet.  

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Suggestion
No, I'm suggesting that trans community form its own mainstream organizations that compete with one another and that are gender identity centric. (And GenderPAC is not mainstream!)

When you have competition for dollars, you have organizations that will hit the ground running.

The truth is, when push comes to shove, if the votes are there for sexual orientation legislation, but not for gender identity, the trans community will be left behind in the dust.

And that's precisely what happened with ENDA a few years back.

Don't let that happen. Break off and form your own organizations with a mission statement that has a laser focus on gender identity issues, awareness and education.

Ignore those with the knee-jerk, emotional responses that always seem to lash out and say, "JJ doesn't get it".

On the contrary, I have a better understanding of gay and trans civil rights issues than most in this forum.

I think for myself and I don't take my marching orders from the national non-profits. Therefore, my strategy dares to challenge their status quo and way of thinking.

And they find that threatening.


[ Parent ]
I don't find it threatening, but then....
... I wasn't knee jerking with an emotional response, either.

the cost of ENDA was loss of the largest coalitions because leadership was split.

That's from the politicians' mouths, btw.

We do have our own orgs.

Hell, we have an entire movement.  Started in 1969 with a riot. Maybe you've heard of it?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Sorry, wrong.
Trans people are the reason.

IT was learned a long time ago that you start out with both, and then you remove transfolk to make it easier to pass the bill.  Most of those legislative bills you speak of did it that way.

That means it was possible because of us.

And a lot of those transfolks are gay, so anyone bristling at that thought needs to correct an asswipish stereotype in their heads.

That "years later" that its added?  The "come back for ater" ideal -- that's a minimum of twelve years, and no average.  TO have an average you have to have two numbers.

Next closest one is something like 18 years. In some cases, it been about 30.

So, um, no. It was transfolks -- gender variant people, not merely transgender -- who started this, and without them, it will never happen completely.

Those vocal transfolk were a few transsexuals. Transfolks are a lot bigger than just them.

Indeed, transfolks are bigger than the GLB.  ANd ya'll work against them far too often with outlooks such as yours, JJ

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Yeah, sure...
I'm gonna call you out on your assertion. If you feel the gay community "needs" the trans community, then do this:

First, stop using the politically expedient term "LGBT". It's gay and lesbian, and transgender.

Second, keep civil rights legislation for sexual orientation and gender identity separate.

Third, The gay community will move to enact their legislation without assistance from the trans community.

Fourth, in turn, the trans community will move to enact its own legislation without assistance from the gay community.

But that also means going back to pre-1993 mission statements in the national non-profit organizations, which were sexual orientation centric.  So no help from HRC, PFLAG, etc.

Let's see who "needs" whom here.  Dyssonance, are you sure you want to take that challenge?  Careful, it would be pretty humbling.


[ Parent ]
JJ
...works for me.  Now, can you also get transsexuality from beneath the transgender umbrella too?  **crosses fingers, but won't hold my breath**

[ Parent ]
Probably wise.
You'd not do any one any good dead from self inflicted asphyxia

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Not possible.
You see, for me to work towards trans legislation, I don't have any choice.

Neither do you.

There are gay transfolk -- and if you leave them behind on either side, you aren't doing the job.

That said, for the most part, I am doing that. My focus is transfolk.

I can marry today.  That right was actually already won by an entire generation of trans activists (and for us, the usual length of a generation is about 5 years).  Indeed, we've lost rights because of the fight for gay marriage.

In the above, you already tossed one group under the bus -- and in doing so, you cut out one of the largest segments of your own populations: bisexuals.

In the first "step".

Leadership has been doing step two for a long while -- without us to give up, your fight is harder because you have less to compromise with (historically).

Third -- see how I started. Impossible -- parts of the gay community are transgender (and vice versa).  So you'll have a hard time pulling that off.

Fourth -- we did that already.  In the 70's and 80's, quietly.  Its how we got the right to marry.  That we lost in the mid 90's in some places.

Point blank, the HRC can stuff itself.  I'd rather have nothing frm them than their attempting to use us. ANd don't get me started on PFLAG.

You need us.  Mostly because you can't get rid of us.  When they use the stereotypes, its of us. So as long as we don't have it, you won't.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Not surprisingly, I disagree.
My friend shares a homosexual orientation with me and that makes her part of my community and vice versa.

But my homosexually-oriented friend is also a transsexual.  So that means she's a transsexual who's part of my community.

And since my friend is also a part of the same community as a heterosexual woman of transsexual history, that means the heterosexual woman of transsexual history is a part of my community, too, as far as I'm concerned (this theoretical woman may or may not feel the same way, but this is about me).

And everybody's straight friends and supportive family?  They don't get an official letter, but they're part of my community, too.

I am not diminished by these associations, but rather I am strengthened by them.

That it took us so long to recognize the obvious -- that all LGBT people are of the same community -- is to our shame.  It doesn't lend credence to the idea that we aren't really a community, any more than taking so long to decide that black people are human too means the country was wrong to abolish slavery.

I guess I'm sorry that no such community exists for you, because it exists for me and for everyone I know and it's been one of the great joys of my life.


[ Parent ]
Homophobia is also about gender, though.
Homophobia as we know it is all about gender anyway -- sexual orientations other than plain-vanilla heterosexual are a "problem" to the more authoritarian types because they're non-conformity in one aspect of the patriarchal version of gender.  And yeah, it's possible for the Log Closet types and their butcher-than-though conservagay Dem equivalent to surgically remove homophobia from the larger programme of gender-role enforcement; but that still leaves out any LGB people who vary from absolute gender conformity in other ways, and it unnecessarily separates out the T as being "something else" instead of another subset of the same crowd.  I mean, sure, I'd like to have my rights as a gay person recognized -- but I'd like to see the larger problem of patriarchy taken down in the process.

[ Parent ]
More than joined at the hip
jj,

While it is true that being transsexual is about one's internal vs somatic or socially imposed gender while being GLB is about the sex of the person you wish to love romantically or lust after unromantically (or in a perfect world, both), the two are irrefutably joined by a common trait.  Both are trans, or at odds with, the societal expectations of what is expected of your perceived gender, hence the umbrella term, 'transgender'.  Once you cross too far from the line that demarks behavior acceptable for your (perceived) gender, you risk the deluge of disapproval and may need or want to seek shelter under the umbrella; the warmth and dryness beneath it can be comforting until the day the skies clear and it is no longer needed.  You may also simply wish to carry it as a form of self expression.  So, you see, in reality GLB falls under the term transgender.

In regards to the comment above about gender being a continuum and people being a mix of male and female:  Why, if that idea was generally accepted it would mean that everyone was transgender, for violating the standards of male and female.  Only those out past 99.99% male or female would be termed "normal"...except that by definition, they'd be freaks, of course.


[ Parent ]
The education has been done!
The web is full of sites that have all the information that any person might need to learn about trans issues, terminology and even intimate details of trans people's lives.  That it's 2009 and there are still GLB people telling us that they "just didn't know, please educate me" is just plain horsecrap.  The laziness and privilege inherent in their ignorance and demands for information is maddening to someone like myself who has devoted considerable time and effort to provide the materials needed for people to educate themselves.

I am a lesbian trans woman.  I am personally acquainted with gay trans men.  We are all, GLB and T, "beat up by the same people" as Jenny Boylan once put it.  We are in the same community, like it or not.


Wow...
Just in time for the ninth anniversary of Norah Vincent's trans-extermination piece.

I'll manage to get my chromosomes changed before either the Advocate or HRC actually changes

>^..^<


Thank you, Autumn
Thank you for posting this, I agree 100%. The coverage of this has been atrocious, and I was sad when I saw the original post here with the title 'duped'. Thank you for being here and standing up for us!

Guess i owe somebody a coke.

It was recently stated to me that the GLBT have started advocating that there is no distinction between a transsexual and homosexuality, and anyone associated with GLBT is homosexual - including all transsexuals, pre or post op.

My response was that i saw no evidence of that.

If this woman is transsexual, i guess i'm well on my way to being wrong, and learning precisely who to target my myself at in the future.

You expect to be silenced and have your identity erased by the enemy. Having it done by people you supported is another matter entirely.

Are you talking about what it is you know, or just repeating what it was you heard?

Grace Slick

www.anonymous-t-girl.blogspot.com


Too Funny
"This is not a same-sex marriage story; this is a transgender person not being able to marry the one she loves story."

or, put another way, a "...transgender person not being able to marry the one she loves..." , who is a male, but can't because she is legally male and has not legally changed her sex in New York by 1) completing an application for a new birth certificate and then returning it with the court order for name change (if that is what she desires as well), bearing the court seal, certified by the clerk of the court; certified proof of publication is also required. The court order must include original name, date and place of birth, 2) have sexual reassignment surgery and including a letter from her SRS surgeon, specifying date, place, and type of procedure as well as the actual operative report from her sex reassignment surgery, 3) a letter from her primary therapist "documenting true transsexualism or inappropriate sexual identification.", and 4) a letter from her endocrinologist or other medical physician "concerning hormonal, chromosomal or endocrinological information", and the both of them wouldn't have gotten the marriage license in the first place if there hadn't of been a clerical error on her benefits card, and they both knew it "...story."

Just too funny...  


She's 18... He's 21... and they live in a shelter.
Do you really think they have the economic resources to do any of the above?

Please - they're lucky if they have general health care.

But there's no economic test for marriage - poor het people can and do marry, and the social and economic benefits can often help couples afterwards (2 legal income sources can help get bank loans, help w/ credit checks, etc.)


[ Parent ]
WTF?
What is going on in this country?  First, the President, who got support from a lot of GLBT people (including me) on the basis of his "everything but gay marriage" equality pledge, figuratively stabs us in the back.  Now a very prominent mainstream GLBT magazine, the Advocate, doesn't realize what it means to be transgender.

WTF?


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