Dan Savage's Proposal for Civil Disobedience

my wife and i haven't had a honeymoon yet.

i'm thinking d.c. in the spring, when the cherries are blossoming.  that's a good time to sit down and just enjoy the day, ya know?

yes, i'm liking this idea a lot.

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 16:55:10 PM CDT

Attention...for about two news cycles.

Such a microscopic protest would get attention for about two news cycles. Then MSM would move on and the next day's and the next day's and the next ad 728 people would start to have no more effect than fire hydrants or shrubs.

For the last TWENTY-EIGHT YEARS, TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY, a group of people dedicated to world peace have held a vigil, one-person-at-a-time at the edge of Lafayette Park across from the White House.

If you go to Philadelphia's Independence Hall almost any time of day, any day of the year, you'll see lovely, sincere Quakers in a silent vigil for peace.

Etc., etc.

But, wait, you say, they're not getting arrested. True, but that novelty involving only one gay couple at a time will evaporate one paper, one TV newscast at a time, until it's melted entirely.

Now if they created a mathematical progression...1 couple, two, four, six, eight, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, etc., [or is that a geometric progression?]... then MAYBE you could sustain the news cycle.

If not, everyone is wasting their time, two by two by two.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:11:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Leave it to Bedwell

Nothing like a blast of bad breath to keep momentum going...thanks for being a drag!!

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by: Patrick @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:19:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good intentions alone

...pave the way to oblivion.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:24:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

For once (and I'm fairly horrified that I'm writing this) I think Bedwell's right

I know the media pretty well.  I know how their minds work. After the first day or two, every editor in every newsroom in the country would be saying, "We've already done that story.  What new story can we do?"  This would be old news for them in no time, and not get covered after the first news cycle or two.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 22:10:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Leave it to Bedwell

Nothing like a blast of bad breath to keep momentum going...thanks for being a drag!!

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by: Patrick @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:19:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

no one said you had to participate.

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:51:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Of course not...

...but there's an unintended consequence to all these bad ideas...they lead people to falsely believe that something worthwhile IS being done so they don't need to do anything themselves. Giving money to charity is not a bad idea but giving money to worthless charities is something I would want people to help me avoid. Same principle with activism.

I respect people more who have the courage to say, "You know, I'm not going to, but it might not be such a good idea for you to jump off a cliff either," than those who Kumbaya everything because they simply like to "feel good," pass out A's for Effort as if we were all children needing our self-esteem validated or confuse mere motion with movement forward.

I have been calling for "mass" civil disobedience for weeks now but Mr. Savage has apparently extrapolated his experiences as an invited talking head on TV too far. Anyone with any experience in organizing protests and their relation to the media, as well as knowledge of the dynamics of long term protest, all of which I have, would recognize that the concept of this one is in the realm of magical thinking.  

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:35:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'll see your armchair expertise...

...and raise you a 'say WHAT?'

In fact, this type of targeted and specific action is what ended legal segregation in the US. (See David Halberstam's excellent book, 'The Children' on the sit-in movement.) It's also the type of direct action aimed at getting a particular outcome delivered that brought AZT to the mass market in 1992 rather than last year (see Randy Shilts' excellent book 'And the Band Played On' as well as 'Angels in America'.)

While I'll concede that the 24 hour news cycle has changed the media management dynamic and calls for shaping the action to fit that reality, my experience tells me that a repeatable, consistent 'appointment with discrimination' is the only type of CD worth engaging in.

If no one is answering your call for 'mass CD', which I expect no one is, ask yourself why that isn't working.

I have a number of off-the-cuff explanations that fit with the overall economic and security environment, but I'm interested in hearing why YOU think your calls for something no one care afford to do with no end point or deliverable result are being ignored.

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 20:31:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You might want to read those books again...

and if you find any examples where the actions of ONLY TWO PEOPLE a day led to significant change I'd love to see it.

The only instances I'm aware of where small numbers genuinely contributed to change were in direct relation to the about of media coverage that resulted from the notoriety of the individuals such as MLK or violent harassment such as that which those sitting in at segregated lunch counters faced.

Now if you can get a different CELEBRITY gay couple to sit in every day...Ellen and Portia...Neil Patrick Harris and David...Rosie and Kelli... Anderson Cooper and ooops nevermind...AND get Maggie Gallagher to pour milk shakes on their heads and Fred Phelps to punch them in the face...then you're talking revolution!!!

Until then, it will just be two functionally invisible shrubs that need sunscreen and potty breaks.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 20:53:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

so what do you suggest?

here we have a concrete suggestion that is generating a lot of excitement.  you don't like it - fair enough.  what is your counter proposal?

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 20:56:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I feel Michael has good points

we can't just do this because it makes us feel good. It has to do something.

Damn. I really thought this idea sounded good when I read it. You'll see my comment offering to donate 12/month. But after reading Michael's analysis, I need more convincing, more detailed foresight, more open accounting of likely outcomes.

Perhaps Michael's idea of having MORE than 2 people a day...specifically multiplying the number of couples each day - exponential coupleing. Michael suggested it.

More workable?

Michael's ideas: "Now if they created a mathematical progression...1 couple, two, four, six, eight, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, etc., [or is that a geometric progression?]... then MAYBE you could sustain the news cycle."

"Now if you can get a different CELEBRITY gay couple to sit in every day...Ellen and Portia...Neil Patrick Harris and David...Rosie and Kelli... Anderson Cooper and ooops nevermind...AND get Maggie Gallagher to pour milk shakes on their heads and Fred Phelps to punch them in the face...then you're talking revolution!!!"

HOWEVER, I still see the value of normal, non-celebrities doing this. BUT, we need more.

Michael, spill your ideas. I'm listening.  

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by: h3986 @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 21:15:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

how about mixing it up?

One month, it's a couple. Next week, it's screaming in the streets. The next DAY, it's something else. The next THIRD day, it's something else. Then doing something ELSE for a whole three weeks....Then surprise them with a NEW thing, for the next TWO days.

Never let them be bored. Never let them acclimate. Never let this be repititious.

Hell, I do $16/month. Just need a good idea/long-term strategy that WILL WORK!

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by: h3986 @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 21:19:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you can't know it won't work.

and there are many ways to measure success/failure.  it certainly can't hurt.  isn't that all people who don't like the idea should be concerned about?

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 21:24:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you think that getting arrested

for the movement will make you feel good, you obviously haven't had the experience.

Spiritually and over the long haul, sure. In the immediate term, I'd rather have a root canal with no pain meds than more nerve damage from the hefty-tie cuffs.

There's an unstated premise here, that Michael believes in, and I'm sure he's sincere but I'd like to see some evidence to support it.

It is:

It's possible for a minority to affect discriminatory policies by massive direct action against the federal government.

I have seen no evidence for that in my 23 years in this movement, so I dispute the premise.

Yeah, it felt good to symbolically throw down with the Rehnquist Court after they rejected Michael Hardwick's claim that he had a right to have sex in his own bed with whoever the hell he chose.

But in reality, with almost 22 years of hindsight, we did nothing that day to affect policy. We did a lot to affect our feelings of self-esteem and assert our human dignity, and it was worth it for that.

It didn't cost anything in that we had no political leaders or supporters who could get us what we wanted through political means. But things are different today.  We're at the final 10 yards of the ballgame this year and 'Go long!' is not the appropriate tool to score.

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 21:32:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Laureen and Phoenix, thanks for responses

I'm going to be absorbing as much info as I can during this new revolution we are trying to create. I'm happy to keep hearing the different views, which will inform my own.

Keep those brain-wheels turning, and keep popping out ideas

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by: h3986 @ Thu Jun 18, 2009 at 20:28:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

PS

Actually, Cleve Jones is including civil disobedience in his list of activities for October 11, though I've yet to see any details.

ACT UP, like the Vietnam/draft protest movement, was largely driven by the ACTUAL will to live. And the bottom fell out of both of those movements when their primary immediate goals were achieved 1., after death rates began to fall with the invention of anti-retrovirals, and 2., when the draft was ended.

[In my own case, I was the leader of an antiwar/antidraft group in the midwest [yes, I'm ollllddd, sue me] and was prepared to go to prison after being drafted. When I was, I refused military induction, was indicted by a federal grand jury, arrested and jailed for a night by the FBI, only to have the charges dropped when my draft board granted me conscientious objector status which led to two years of minimum wage civilian "alternative service," first at a mental hospital and then at Goodwill Industries.]

AIDS still exists and the Vietnam War continued for three more years after the last men were drafted but the mass civil disobedience not ONE COUPLE AT A TIME changed history.

If gays were DYING because of DOMA or DADT or because we haven't been added to the 1964 Civil Rights Act or more gays dying because of the lack of a federal hate crimes law, you'd unquestinably see ACT UP resurrected.

As it is, we will have to wait and see how many participate in how much civil disobedience on October 11th which the majority of those most angry seem to believe is the day to do whatever.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 21:09:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ah, suggestions....

ON A WEEKDAY WHEN CONGRESS IS IN SESSION AND THE PRESIDENT IS EXPECTED TO BE IN DC:

These are "minimum" needs not "ideals". For each of them include as many people with pre-existing MSM media profiles as possible, men, women, trans, multiracial, clergy, military in uniform, gay, nongay, with an emphasis on people over 35 [remember "the young" are already "with us" by huge margins]

Identify every Senator and Congressperson who is not a cosponsor of every LGBT rights bill that's been introduced, let's guess 450 overall.

Identify sets of six people willing to be arrested for refusal to leave the office of EACH of those 450.

450 times 6 means you need 2700 people for Congressional offices.

Another 1000 willing to be arrested block the streets leading to the Capitol building itself; another 1000 willing to be arrested block the streets to the White House, another 1000 willing to be arrestedblock the main entrances of the Pentagon.

OF COURSE, you would have pre-alerted MSM, but, for each group, have a team of trained digital videographers to record the sit ins, arrests, etc., and e-blast mashups to pre-identifed news directors at every major TV station in the country, and sound bites to radio news outlets, and still photos to every newspaper. Insert pre-recorded "sexy" [in media not literal terms] interviews with articulate celebrity or "high respect" individual spokespeople for each event. "We are putting our bodies on the line here today because ________." Live interview subjects should be pre-trained in how to talk to the media [the key is YOUR controlling the narrative NOT them] and in simple to understand, on-message talking points. They would emphasize the "functional" cost that such laws relate to over "moral righteousness"--national security, couples' tax benefits and medical power of attorney, job security, physical safety, etc.

MEDIA MEDIA MEDIA MEDIA. Twitter until their cell phones burn their hands. If a demonstration happens and no one sees it there is no sound.

Another back up team, which could be anywhere would mass flood government and MSM switchboards and Net inboxes with messages about the demonstrations to with the minimum goal of tying them up and the hopeful goal of crashing all non-government security connections.

Arrestees would need legal monitors to see they weren't mistreated when arrested and bailed out afterward. Medical monitors would need to be available for people with chronic or acute health issues.

Free housing and food would have to be found for the majority of people from out of the area. When I went to Washington for the Vietnam Moratorium protests and the protest of Nixon's second inaugural strangers all over DC opened their homes to us; churches provided floors to sleep on and mass amounts of food to eat.

The city jails were filled and finally they had to transfer people to RFK stadium. Yes, most of those demonstrators did not participate in civil disobedience [though some were caught unawares and arrested] but as we approached the Capitol Mall MACHINE GUNS were pointed down at us from the tops of buildings for blocks but I didn't see a single person turn around. [Getting caught in a police "vice" was a different matter but then we were actively being moved on.]

Such spirit, such victories can happen again...but we need more than 738 people and certainly more than two a day.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 21:44:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So you don't agree with the principle here

which is that in today's media environment, getting consistent earned media over the long haul is as much about shaping the action to fit the production cycle for the news as it is about some kind of threshold numerical figure.

That's fine, but you have no alternative to offer because the 'mass numbers of anything' theory of influencing the media was blown away by the last 8 years.

One concrete example that may help you to understand why I'm so sure you're getting no response because you have a bad idea:

Millions of people all over the planet protested the Iraq war on the same February Saturday, and the result was 3 minutes of local coverage run as a balance against the 'Guard unit deploys, Area Toddler misses mommy already' story.

Ask yourself, what is the story that will run against your entirely hypothetical shutdown of the Treasury building? I can only think of bad, bad things that might 'balance' that one.

More to the point, though, all of your examples of why small protests fail have the same failing themselves: They are asking for something theoretical and impossible. How will we know when we've achieved 'peace'?

I'll wait, get back to me.

Okay, now how will we know when we've repealed DOMA?

See the difference?

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 21:19:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Iraq protests...Fruits vs. nuts

1. you're ridiculously conflating "demonstrations" which, with RARE exception, involved civil disobedience, certainly not in the kind of numbers I'm talking about with ONLY civil disobedience that was, I thought, the subject. It is mine anyway.

2. for some of the reasons you allude to I AM TOTALLY AGAINST just a Meet on the Mall even if it WERE going to be on a day when anyone who they want to influence will be around...again NOT what I'm talking about...or Savage for that matter.

3. Most "marches," "rallies" fail because people have grown tired of them because they've been overdone. That's why Iraq 1 protests failed [plus the fact that the draft was long gone], And the Iraq 2 ones had an even greater reason for failing to get real media attention and therefore didn't come close to changing anything:

the public AND MSM were already SOLD on the war after 9/11. And, absurdly, for the most part they still are.

BUT, that is an advantage to DADT protests because we can exploit the connection to their personal safety fears.

Even with our not having done that successfully yet, up to 81% of the public already supports repeal [the goal is to get THEM to pressure Congress] and MSM media is already saying to Obama' mouthpiece Gibbs et al. WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH DADT? Throw in some colorful civil disobedience and watch them come running with cameras and mikes.

There is similar, though not quite as self-motivating, empathy for other gay issues, certainly FAR more than there was about Iraq.

The different goals, tactics, and the pre-existing mindsets of the public and MSM make your comparison irrelevant and therefore your "proof" nonexistent.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 22:06:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Now you're making my point for me.

The key difference between gay-rights actions of any kind and the anti-war movement is the existence of the draft. That is, the draft made it a fact that the war affected everyone.

Although there were thousands of people arrested in dozens of cities in Feb. 2003, you think I'm talking about 'a protest march'--because the Iraq war was generally popular unless you just didn't care at all.

Which is more like our situation as LGBT people in a country with mixed laws and customs about respecting our rights? I say the Iraq war, you say Viet Nam.

I've got the evidence, in the form of a complete failure to achieve mass arrests without the pressure of the draft.

You've got the conviction that this problem is just like your last successful protest experience.

We'll see who was right in 10 years. Good luck with your plan that requires 5000 people willing to ruin their lives on a given weekday...you're gonna need it.

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 22:20:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"ruin their lives"???

"ruin their lives"??? What's your real name? Patty Hearst?

Sorry, I didn't realize you're a cretin.

My mistake.

Next!

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 23:30:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dang

That is a hell of an idea.   Almost makes me wish I had a partner.....

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by: sfalken @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:01:38 PM CDT

As I said over at Dan's place

Please, please have multiple ethnicities of same-sex couples if this protest is to be done at the White House.  

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:03:56 PM CDT

that, of course, is up to the people who step forward

to participate.  but of course i agree with you, and not just ethnicities.  i want to see some different sex couples where one or both are bisexuals and make sure they make that abundantly clear.  i want to see cis-/trans- couples.  i want to see straight allies, etc. (i'll babysit for ya, Louise :D ).  we ALL need to show up.  

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:13:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

yes

I love the idea of making sure this isn't just a g thing, but glbt -- and a(llies). I think that makes a much more powerful statement: this is a bad law for us all, not just gay people.  

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by: RyansTake @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:08:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Count this transgender lesban and her bisexual wife in

we talked about it before she ran off to a church meeting.

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Claim to fame: Posted first PHB diary to be demoted

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by: cindik @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:29:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Lesbian even

slow down
proofread
spell check

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Claim to fame: Posted first PHB diary to be demoted

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by: cindik @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:30:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Brilliant idea

I would definitely volunteer to be arrested as part of this action.

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by: JosephineTx @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:05:25 PM CDT

This is a brilliant idea

I have a partner who's Canadian, and we have a long distance relationship. I wish we could be a part of this.

But I'd sure as hell be absolutely willing to donate for the expenses of who can participate...I'll use the money I would be donating to the Democratic Party.....

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by: Terry @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:08:47 PM CDT

For the first time in a long time

I started donating again. A "sponsor a child" street talker convinced me I could afford 18 dollars a month for a kid in Latin America, whether or not he is a religious conservative in training.

But perhaps I can ask more of myself. Perhaps an extra 12 a month can help these couples who are NOT religious conservatives....

Where would I donate? I guess we need to set something up. One more reason for my Ebay selling.

Maybe more of us should sell on ebay, get money, donate at least 12 a month. Or you guys do 15, I'll do 12 ;)

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by: h3986 @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:15:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'll chip in

Terry is right - I can donate the money I'd have given to the Democratic party, and to HRC, and to various other orgs who've let us down.

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by: swei0009 @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:16:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Great

Great, but it's really just an action for those who want marriage rights, not full gay rights. Marriage equality is not my issue. I support it because I support my brothers and sisters in arms. I support full federal recognition of my rights. And I support the March because it encompasses what I want for my community. Not some narrow hetero-centric institution. I'm just waiting for the calls to support gay divorce and gay remarriage. They'll be coming.

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by: Todd @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:15:51 PM CDT

Fair point.

I see no reason that this has to be "get arrested for marriage" only.  If your gripe is lack of LGBT civil rights, of any variety (employment protection, immigration, etc.) I should think that should be enough to participate.  I'd be all for broadening it that way.

I also think this could be a really fun family event.  Have the whole clan come and get arrested together to show their support for their mother, kid, grannie, etc.

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Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:26:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not really.

I think the idea is brilliant and I'm willing to donate to support it, as long as it's simple and clear.

The reason the sit-ins worked was they were so damn targeted and specific, and there was a way for the segregated business to concede the point--by integrating.

That's why I will support this and won't support a(nother) march--how do we know whether we were successful?

But that last point you've raised is just confusing.

We need civil equality because our relationships end. In other words, yeah, a gay divorce overseen by a court enforcing a known and predictable set of rules.

If you've ever had a breakup of a LTR that included living together, you know how hard breakups can be without a referee.

Anyway, you don't have to be 'for' marriage on any basis, but if you're 'for gay marriage' you're for gays divorcing in a legal and civilized fashion.

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:35:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

True--marriage and divorce go hand in hand

As my partner likes to say, it's not when things are going well that we depend on our legal rights.  It's when we split up, or when someone is ill, or when someone dies.  So of course it's important for gays to be able to divorce and remarry just like anyone else.

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by: JosephineTx @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:42:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Great (part 2)

Great. So I'm supporting an action for marriage equality and gay divorce, because it's targeted? HUH?
Look, we're at a point where all these piece meal actions in the States aren't doing anything for the broader question of Gay Civil Rights in the United States. There are 4 different bills in the Congress right now. All terribly important. I find it hard to understand why it so hard to support all of them, at the same time, in one unifying action. That's what I see the march is about. I'll support it. For me, the most political statement I will be able to make, will be my presence. And to me, I will show my support for gays, for lesbians, for tansgenders and for bisexuals and most of all, for me.
I am a lurker on the net but have come out now because I've seen an opportunity for our cause. We are at a moment very similar to the other unifying moments in our fight: Stonewall, late 70's San Francisco and late 80's NYC where we can all come together and demand our equal rights. It's about damn time! And this time we'll win!

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by: Todd @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:05:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think this could be EO

His idea is borne from the DOMA debacle, but I don't see why the participants must be restricted to only that issue.

Employment, immigration, adoption, DADT...all of it needs to be brought to the front door of the man that encouraged us to fight.  

Our fierce advocate needs to hear from us...from ALL of us. Do civil rights require that citizens are hit with a fire hose and attacked by police dogs and beaten by cops?  

Is America just one big hazing ritual?  

Is this what it takes to get equality in the 21st century?

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by: Patrick @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:32:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes. /eom

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:36:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's what I was thinking

People could also go dressed as service members, or wearing bulls eyes.  

Electricity's for light bulbs!

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by: n8nyc @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:31:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Marriage equality is the fastest route to full LGBT rights.

All my political efforts go into bringing about marriage equality for purely selfish reasons that have nothing to do with marriage: once you get marriage equality, you get everything else.

Marriage will legitimize our community essentially overnight.  Not everywhere, but in enough places at first to make a huge difference.  Married couples, while fighting for their famiilies, will also break down barriers of discrimination much faster and more effectively than our community has to date.  It's easy for some people to be anti-LGBT, but people will have a much harder time justifying being anti-family or anti-children once those families and children are fully legitimate.

Instead of fighting over here for ENDA or over there for DADT, my concentration is on getting other people marriage so that it becomes too risky to treat someone unfairly in the workplace because they're LGBT or that DADT would become even more outrageous once a legally-married couple and their kids would suffer because of it.

And no wonder you don't consider marriage your issue with that attitude, mister!  I don't know if I'll ever get married, but I know I won't have a narrow hetero-centric marriage if I do.  That sounds so 20th Century!  I don't know anybody who has one of those now, including my straight friends or even my own parents.

As to divorce and remarriage, there's no need to wait for them.  Same-sex couples have been getting divorced for years (including the couple who made marriage equality in Massachusetts possible, sadly) and somebody must be on at least their second marriage by now. Woo-hoo equality!

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by: diablorobotico @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:04:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No marriage equality is not...

...the fastest route to full LGBT rights.

For one reason, it is so inflammatory...THE gay issue with the LEAST amount of public support. True MARRIAGE equality will continue to be a state by state by state battle for years to come. Note, six down only FORTY-FOUR more to go, plus DC and US territories.

Second, as per my post above about the built-in impotence of Savage's idea of only one couple getting arrested one day at a time, it's not an issue that Americans generally can visualize a couple at a time. And the fact that not all gay couples WANT to get unioned or married or whatever muddies the issue.

Extrapolation from ENDA and hate crimes is also limited by its "singular gay person" narrative. While both potentially effect all days, we don't even have statistics about how many gay people are fired each year, and the reporting on hate crimes, until the federal bill passes, is not consistent from state to state.

We DO have statistics on gays fired under DADT...going back years; in fact, to when it was still just a policy. Roughly 130,000 have been fired over the years, but that's just those that have been caught or self-identified. The law affects all gays in the military, estimated to be 65,000 at any given time.

Combine more "faces" like Dan Choi and Margaret Witt with the statistics and the fact that the majority of American worship the military and you have a sharp point with which to pierce all forms of LGBT inequality.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:23:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

In the footsteps of Transafrica and Soulforce

I am intrigued by Dan's idea, and have been mulling over something like it myself in recent days since the DOMA/Smelt brief filing.

In the 1980s, Transafrica, under the leadership of Randall Robinson, successfully used the drip-drip-drip of daily protests and civil disobedience at the South African embassy here in Washington. Some days it would be just one or 2 celebrities, or a U.S. Representative or 2. On the day I participated, nearly 500 college leaders from around the country were arrested. The action continued for months and months and kept the injustices of apartheid and Reagan administration complicity in constant public view.

More recently, Soulforce, headed by Mel White, has used the same tactic to protest anti-LGBT institutions-- church conventions and college campuses around the country.

I do caution, however, that we might want to consider a venue other than the White House, though its visibility and symbolism is obvious. (It will not help anyone if a bunch of LGBTs end up on some TSA no-fly list because they were arrested at a super-sensitive location.)

Maybe the DC headquarters of the Internal Revenue Service or the Democratic Natl Committee could be appropriate subsitute backdrops for this type of advocacy.

We should also ensure that participants are fully aware of the potential legal consequences, and provide them with legal affinity teams that would post bail after arrests and commit to pro bono representation for defendants if authorities prosecuted the violations. This is the model used by both Transafrica and Soulforce and during the lunch counter sit-ins in the 1950s and 60s.

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by: mitch wood @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:37:46 PM CDT

If we can broaden the target to the IRS and SSA

IOW, the administrative departments of the executive branch where the policy is being carried out...that might be a good option to lower the risk of long-term consequences like a visit from the FBI.

It would also lower the drama level, though, so that's an individual choice I guess.

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:44:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We're in

My partner and I are planning a trip to the Northeast to celebrate our 15th anniversary in October (you know, spend money in the marriage supporting states). We were thinking of going to the 10/11 rally just because we'd be in the neighborhood, but we'd much rather spend some time in a bit of civil disobedience. If this ever gets organized we're there.

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by: bazaarsoft @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:38:21 PM CDT

Are Dan and his husband volunteering to be first (and go on the terrorist watch list)?

"It would demonstrate better than another gay march just how seriously we take this issue"

On the contrary, it demonstrates an astounding lack of planning. Obama, the Secret Service, and the White House staff aren't stupid. They will squelch this on the first day by distancing access points, rotating access point locations, etc. There are dozens of strategies including using Obama's African American Pastor friends who will protest in favor of "family-values" and mirror each gay couple with a pair of children (one male, one female) carrying signs that say "Please don't deny us a mother and a father". Obama and those who oppose gay marriage have no problem getting ugly (just look at their brief which compared us to pedophiles).

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by: Ralph4159 @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:39:53 PM CDT

then you go

as close as you can to get arrested.

Ghandi, MLK Jr and literally millions of other people didn't give up because people tried to "squelch" their voices.  

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by: RyansTake @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:11:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

They're not volunteering to be first, necessarily, but they are volunteering to do it.

I'm sure they'd be first if that's the way it worked out, but they probably wouldn't fight another couple who really wanted the honor.

And if your very spy-movie scenario did come to pass, wouldn't that just add fuel to the media fire?  I don't see the downside to White House resistance.

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by: diablorobotico @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:13:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Terrorist Watch List?

This century, we've had eight years of Bush followed by six months of Obama. What makes you think he and most GLBT organizations aren't on the list already?

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by: raya @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 22:44:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What's so smart about this idea

is that all same-sex couples can participate.

It bridges the gap between the married and the engaged nicely. I'm married, but DOMA affects my family dramatically every time we leave and re-renter the US.

It also gives those of us who are privileged to have equal treatment in our own home states a way to contribute to the national fight.

Great! I'm in! Where do I contribute to the legal defense and bail fund?

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:40:01 PM CDT

I do have a slight correction, not all same sex couples would choose to marry

my partner of 6 years and I wouldn't marry if it was legal, and many other LGBTs have no interest in marriage for themselves, but will stand up for those who want marriage.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 20:30:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I love it.

Have to consider flying to DC (from San Jose, California) to do it.

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by: Joe Decker @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:42:57 PM CDT

Love it. And....

.... and why one couple?  One couple a day would be great, would keep a drumbeat going.  let's do it.  But if on any given Tuesday we had three....?  five...?  If on holidays, busy days, we had seven.... ? Ten...? If every gay couple started coming on their anniversaries to chain themselves to the fence?  FOR YEARS, if needed?  Forget one big march.  Let's do one loooooong, MESSY, expensive trickle.

Game on.  Our 25th is coming.  Seriously, we're there.

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by: Fuckem @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 17:46:49 PM CDT

I like how Dan Savage thinks

here's a variation

Have about 10 same sex couples at the state capitol's court house marriage certificate lines,(in the states without LGBT marriages) when one couple is refused a license, they sit down, and have to be arrested. Then the next same sex couple steps forward and does the exact same thing. This could tie up marriage license lines all day.
Repeat the NEXT DAY.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 18:43:06 PM CDT

Excellent idea!

Especially if an entire wedding party comes in in full regalia.  (And bring cupcakes for everyone, including the clerks and everyone else in line.)

Marriage equality.  Now with 50% more cake.

equalitycake.blogspot.com

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by: Maureen @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:39:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What would be beneficial would be equal numbers of men and women couples

with an opposite sex partner until they reach the window, so they can't be picked out of the line, until they reach the window.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 20:34:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

...and Have them bring their Children.

Having all arrangements made for their care etc too. Not too young. Those of an age to understand.  Pre-teens, teens etc.

Parents, siblings too, who would be willing to come and watch and support.

Make it a real PFLAG affair. Show the country this isn't just about gays...but that gays connect to us all. 

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:02:31 PM CDT

April 17th was the forty-fourth anniversary

of the first GLB picket at the White House.  I don't think the T was represented.  According to Lilli Vincenz,  there were three women (1 lesbian, one bisexual, one heterosexual) and seven men.  Here's Lilli looking all proper in her stockings and skirt during the second picket which took place in May of that year.  In front of her is Frank Kameny.  Even after all these years, you'd hardly have to change the wording on the signs, would you?

Although the burden would fall disproportionally on the people from northern Virginia, Maryland and DC, I'd love to see a well-organized, 365day/year picket as close to the White House as one can get these days, even if it had to be across the street in Lafayette Park (which, by the way, was once a popular cruising spot for men).

The idea that there is only one right way to think, protest, act, BE - it's just so tiresome.  Act Up or act well-behaved, but Get Busy.  And remember - those plastic ties they put around your wrists nowadays hurt just as much as the "metal bracelets" used to if they ratchet them down nice and snug to "teach you a lesson."

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by: Pollyanna @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:08:56 PM CDT

True...to a point.

The idea that there is only one right way to think, protest, act, BE - it's just so tiresome.

True. But the idea that ALL actions are worthwhile...the confusion of mere motion with movement forward ...is just so idiotic.

Raise your hand if you knew that anyone following up on Polly's idea of a "365day/year picket as close to the White House as one can get these days, even if it had to be across the street in Lafayette Park" would have to share the space with the peace demonstrators who have, as noted above, been doing the same kind of thing next to Lafayett Park FOR 28 YEARS!

Give me ONE reason, after the first couple of news cycles, Americans would know, let alone care, anymore about gays doing it than these sincere souls?

A series of SIZEABLE arrests, shutting down X, Y, and Z buildings in DC, absolutely. Planned right and I'll meet you there. Do you prefer milk chocolate or dark?

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:47:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

THIS to/for California Couples.... who could have extra incentive.

from EQ CA:
One year ago today, same-sex couples began getting legally married in California.

Today, 18,000 same-sex couples and their families are living with the full protection and dignity accorded by civil marriage under California state law. Congratulations to them, their children, and their family on this milestone.

We are proud to announce our partnership with the Jordan/Rustin Coalition-a Black LGBT advocacy organization fighting for equality in greater Los Angeles since 2006.

Our partnership is also launching a new ad-introducing Californians to one of those 18,000 couples, Michael and Xavier, and their children. Watch our new ad.

We are also set to open a new office in the heart of the Black community in South Los Angeles. The staff we hire there will work to expand our coalition with local community groups and recruit volunteers to talk face-to-face with Californians who do not yet support our equality.

But, we need to raise $25,000 in the next 36 hours so we can open the office and hire a field organizer to do the critical outreach in the African-American community.

Please, join us to make this essential work happen.
We can only do it with your support.

In solidarity,

Geoff Kors
Executive Director
Equality California

Marc Solomon
Marriage Director
Equality California

 

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

---

by: Orion45 @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:09:13 PM CDT

Mass actions like the March on Washington are better but this is good too.

If arrangements can be made with the DC authorities not to press charges. Otherwise the protestors should be told that they could be in for a legal nightmare. The law got much more repressive in the last 16 years and if the cops and prosecutors want to be rough they can.

This would be much more effective if people not intending to get arrested (it's not always up to us or good sense) had picket lines and rallies near the WH.  

Beyond that big, militant marches are much better in terms of organizing, galvanizing and educating our own communities, which has to be our first goal and of creating a base of allied groups.  

SSM, Clintons DADT, an inclusive ENDA, Clintons DOMA, hate crimes and hate speech are all fair game for any demonstration or rally. It's unproductive to try to limit what parts of our agenda demonstrators should raise. Anyone who thinks they know which of them will catch on and activate the most people is simply daydreaming.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

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by: donal1944 @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:11:48 PM CDT

Fantastic idea

Sounds like a fantastic idea. It sure couldn't hurt. Better than another march on Washington (The gays are marching again. Stop the presses.) I don't have a partner but I'd be glad to support this financially.

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by: Dieter @ Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 19:19:56 PM CDT

I'd like to volunteer

I'm single, though

My dad was a steelworker
My mom was a kitchen girl
and that's why
I'm a socialist.
-from an old song I used to hum to myself

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by: DaveB @ Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 01:21:28 AM CDT

why not do this at the Congressional level?

Sure, The White House offers a unique symbolism, as does a sashay on Washington, but the connection to lawmakers and the electorate is lost.  Instead of seeing their Queer neighbors and friends demanding equality, John and Jane Public see privileged celebrities when we focus the media's attention, as little thought is given by the Queer Powers That Be to empowering the Queer citizenry when it's easier to round up the same forty Queers to pose and yap.

If we want to affect policy, the argument must be taken directly to the home offices of every member of Congress, not just The White House or The Capitol.  1082 (541x2)* simultaneous arrests of same-sex couples in localities throughout the country would strike the American voter much more strongly than 2 at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and empower more Queer Americans in the struggle without heaping money on the travel and hospitality industries!

*541=100 Senators + 435 Reps + 6 Delegates

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by: greatwhitebear @ Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 07:57:42 AM CDT

I disagree with Bedwell's take on this ...

How will we know if this action will be effective or not unless we try it?  Besides,  I think there would be other benefits besides being or not being in the news cycle.  

Dan recognizes that this action is only a part of the whole.  He did NOT say "fuck the march, do it THIS way".  It's discouraging to hear our own voices disparaging these ideas.

By themselves, marches don't "work".  Neither do sit-ins, or letter-writing, or even ... gasp ... an HRC cocktail party.  BUT taken all together ...

So, Mr. Bedwell, choose the action(s) you think will be the most effective.  But please allow others to execute their own ideas.  We don't need internal sniping.

I've done marches, I don't do them any more.  And yes, maybe they don't do much to overturn DOMA or DADT, or get the attention of the president or the media.  But I remember too vividly the feeling I got from those first marches, and I would never argue that that would be a waste of time.  

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by: trailrunnr @ Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 09:12:55 AM CDT

Along with something National and Congressional

our new grassroots efforts should incorporate something on the local level and designed to be more along the lines of showing who we are to everyday common citizens.

Here is my idea: In every major city, in all 50 states, we buy a full page add in the most widely read local newspaper and call the campaign something like "Local Faces for Equality" or "We Are Your Neighbors" . The full page add would feature, say six, average everyday gay or lesbian couples, preferally ones with compelling, moving stories and any contributions we've made to the local community as a whole and whatnot, you know, like how many years(decades) we've been in our committed relationships, how inequalites directly effect our lives. Our stories! Each story accompanied by a picture WITH FACES of ourselves and our family/pets.

Also incorproate any individual who has served in the armed forces or that has been discharged under DADT or an internation couple unable to take advantage of the benefit of sponsoring their spouse to immigrate.

Certainly there are enough stories out there and, depending on the market in question, could raise the money for the full page ad and do it weekly or monthly, each featuring six all new members of the GLBT and our stories.

Anyway, just throwing that out there... bottom line, include more local visibility and something to show who we are with more personal stories. We are apart of every community in the entire US and I think if more people could be reminded of that and see our faces it may just change a few hearts and minds.  

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by: MrHeathen @ Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 12:13:00 PM CDT