Maine anti gay petition effort questioned

Shouldn't you just be able to call a cop when this happens?

Isn't this fraud?

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by: steerpike66 @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:15:26 AM CDT

Fraud?

My thoughts exactly.  Apparently "fraud" = "free speech"?

Bait and switch at a store is illegal.  So why isn't it illegal here?

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by: g2k @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:40:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Right!

Fraud is not protected by the First Amendment.

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by: uh_huhh @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:56:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not illegal though

It is fraudulent yes, but there are no laws against this as you are expected to read before you sign.

Underhanded, dirty and just plain sleazy too...

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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by: TruthandLove @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 12:29:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Quite possible, but...

I don't trust the assistant secretary of state's big declaration that fraud is protected by the First Amendment.

Characterizing the measure, as with the "Protect Children" nonsense in Washington, is one thing. Telling people that one of the petitions is to enact a same-sex marriage law is not merely a matter of characterization or opinion. That seems like out-and-out voter fraud.

Try the Attorney General instead of the bureaucrats at the secretary of state's office.

As for the ACLU, this wouldn't be the first time that they put their overbroad personal interpretation of the First Amendment above gay rights. When they declare that the First Amendment protects this and that, their assertions are not always based on law. Sometime they're based on ACLU policies that few courts would ever agree with.

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by: uh_huhh @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 15:08:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fundies did this in MA also

Six years ago in MA during the marriage battle the fundies pulled the same bait and switch tactic. They were trying to change the MA constitution at the same time there was a ballot initative to ban greyhound dog racing. They would get people wishing to sign the greyhound ban and switch the clipboard with the anti-marriage petition they handed people. Or they would have the anti-marriage petition under the cover for the dog racing petition. People were too busy to read the document they were signing and just believed petition gatherer. We organized truth squads to find out where the signature gathers were located. Our side then sent folks there to warn people and also explain equal civil marraige rights.

audacity of nope

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by: audacity of nope @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 07:52:53 AM CDT

In MI too

This happened in Michigan leading up to the marriage amendment vote in 2004. Same bait-and-switch, same cover for one petition with the actual signatures going to another. I don't remember what they said the petitions were for.

Yes, it is fraudulent. No, it is not illegal (at least not in Michigan). I had discussions with my state rep (now state senator) about it but with the GOP in control of the senate here nothing will be done.

One solution is easy. Require each ballot issue gather signatures on different colored paper. Let's see, lavender (or maybe puce) for the marriage issue, taupe for the tax issue.

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by: Paul K @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 15:14:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How is this

How is this not any different from scams or frauds? Does Maine have such laws to protect people from fraudulent activity? Especially considering that people who sign a petition, whether willfully or fraudulently, will have their names splashed on the internets?

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by: LostMetroid88 @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:10:21 AM CDT

My thought exactly

But people can say what they want, it's a First Amendment issue

It sure as shit wouldn't be if, for example, the person was selling tickets and the 'speech' in question was an affirmative representation that the tickets were to see The Eagles when, in fact, the tickets were to see a Debby Boone tribute band.

That would be fraud.  'Buyer beware' might come in to play regarding any civil damages (if it was obvious from the face of the tickets what they were to), but the action of the seller would be a criminal act - and is substantively different than any generic lie, er..., campaign promise of a candidate seeking office.

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:42:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you see it happen

Stand beside them and don't leave.  Let other people know what they are doing.  Take their picture.  Get their name and phone number.  Report them.  Have fun with them.  :)

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by: brianTN @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 09:20:53 AM CDT

They've done this in every ballot initiative I know of

Here in Pittsburgh we countered it with an aggressive drive to document as much of the voter fraud as possible.  Among other things, we phone banked, calling at random people who had signed the petitions to verify their signatures.  A surprising number of people who were scammed into signing offered to testify about it.  We were able to assemble a long list of such people in a relatively short time and with comparatively little effort.  And the prospect of being prosecuted for election fraud threw such a scare into the fundies, they're pretty much left us alone ever since.

I don't know what, legally, constitutes electoral fraud in ME, but you need to find out--and then document it as thoroughly as possible.  Be aggressive about this.  It will pay off.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 10:26:02 AM CDT

Stunningly dishonest

It's so disheartening to hear about tricks like these. Big hugs to everyone in Maine who supports equality! Hang in there!

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by: that_chris_guy @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 10:27:54 AM CDT

It might be a crappy thing to do.

But one really must agree with the fact that it is up to the individual SIGNING a petition to READ AND KNOW what they are signing.  If one doesn't read what they sign, it is their own fault.  Deceptive practices do not absolve anyone from the responsibility to know what they are signing.

I think these tactics are shitty, especially from a church organization, breaking the commandments so we don't have to, but still, it is the signers responsibility to determine exactly what it is they are signing, there is no argument with that fact.  

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

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by: R.K. Wright @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:44:27 AM CDT

They have no principles at all, do they?

Their objection to marriage equality is that it's somehow sinful.  But evidently using sin to eliminate "sin" is OK.  

If there is a hell, these people should occupy the 7th Level.

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by: pantalaimon @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:44:29 AM CDT

reminds me of an old friend

who joined a missionary group that was willing to lie to the government of indonesia that they were there as language teachers only, when in fact that was their cover job.  their real intent was to "witness" to those heathen muslims.  they knew they wouldn't be allowed in if they were honest.  lying to bring the 10 commandments to people seems juuuust a little fukked up.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:59:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Petition fraud

These people pulled the same fraudulent nonsense in Montgomery County last year, asking people to sign up for the right to vote whether or not to add trans civil rights to the law, which HAD ALREADY HAPPENED.

Dr. Dana

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by: danabeyer @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:48:17 AM CDT

A very common problem, unfortunatey.

Especially when you have fake Christians behind a petition, watch out, they lie like no tomorrow.

Here in Washington state, the trouble starts with lies printed right on the petition sheet itself.  By law, the petition must feature the official ballot language and summary that the attorney general wrote, as well as the text of the legislation in question.  However, there is no law against adding additional "advertising" to the sheet.  Here is what Referendum 71 looks like:

As Dominic Holden said

At the top of the petition-above the ballot title and official legal summary of what the measure does-there is a box titled "Highlights" with large bold type. Here they are:

   • The legislature just passed a law that effectively makes same sex marriages legal. By signing R-71 we can reverse that decision and protect marriage as between one man and one woman."

   • If same-sex marriage becomes law, public schools K-12 will be forced to teach that same-sex marriage and homosexuality are normal... even over the objections of parents. Sign R-71 to protect children.

Both statements are false, of course. The state Attorney General's office wrote the ballot title to accurately describe what the domestic-partnership bill, which R-71 attempts to repeal, actually does. The bill extends the rights of marriage, but, the ballot summary says, "Registered domestic partnerships are not marriages, and marriage is prohibited except between one man and one woman." The second claim is completely out of left field. "There is nothing in the bill that forces schools to teach homosexuality or that same-sex marriage is normal," says state Representative Jamie Pedersen, who sponsored the domestic-partnership bill in the state house. And state Senator Ed Murray, the bill's prime sponsor, adds: "There is nothing in the bill that requires anyone to teach anything."

Nonetheless, the lies are in larger, bolder type than the ballot summary-essentially upstaging the facts. How can they do that? Gary Randall, spokesman for the Referendum 71 campaign, did not return calls to answer that question.

"What you see here is the radical right doing what it does best, which is trying to create fear in the public by creating a parade of horribles which in fact does not exist," says Josh Friedes, spokesman for Equal Rights Washington.

But it's legal. Secretary of State's office spokesman David Ammons says, "The state supreme court has said you can lie in campaign utterances and campaign materials. We have no jurisdiction over extra words and sales pitches that sponsors choose to put on petitions." In other words, the Referendum 71 petitions could claim that the measure would ban abortion, impeach the governor, guarantee salvation... almost anything (short of threats or bribery) to persuade people to sign it.

"We are all for truth in advertising and voters getting clear and accurate information," says Ammons. "But we simply don't have police power of what campaigns say about their ballot measure."

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 11:55:58 AM CDT

Thanks everyone

for the great comments and contributions, as well as to TruthandLove for a great catch and post. Was busy yesterday getting ready for Pride and didn't read any online local papers for a change...

I fully intend to forward this post to the MCLU tomorrow, so please feel free to add any other concerns, observations, etc.

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by: Louise @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 12:12:12 PM CDT

No Prob Louise

And as the Post Office said, what they are doing is not against the law, it is the responsibility of the signer to know what they are signing.

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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by: TruthandLove @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 12:27:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

They get paid by the signature

what do they (the gatherers) care if they lie, misrepresent, mislead, etc. or not.

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by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 12:30:53 PM CDT

Why

are they allowed to gather signatures at the Post Office on government property?  Would this amount to the Government supporting a religion?

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by: Guy in SF @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 14:30:29 PM CDT

Record it and send the footage to a local news network

Expose them.

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by: Blanco @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 15:59:19 PM CDT

Wow are you kidding me?

[quote]"It's a buyer beware situation for the voter; they really need to be sure of what they are signing," she said. "But people can say what they want, it's a First Amendment issue. We don't have anything in law that allows us to monitor or enforce signature gatherers."[/quote]

I think they call that voter fraud but what do I know?

Always thinking about it...

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by: kudo451 @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 18:50:38 PM CDT

Unbelievable.

How can any lawyer or judge see this as anything besides textbook fraud?

I am the lizard queen!

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by: RainbowPhoenix @ Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 20:29:40 PM CDT

It is Illegal to Collect Signatures at a US Post Office

There is a Massachusetts federal district court case that states it is illegal to campaign or conduct political activity on US Post Office property.  GLAD and Maine advocates need to get to court and kick these haters off Post Office property throughout the state.

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by: salemlawyer @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 08:57:30 AM CDT

Petition to have your name removed from a petition.

I've found that in cases where a petition had a typo or was misleading, folks were able to sign a second petition effectively removing their name from the initial misleading petition. Could something like this be put together and gathered at the same sites these scammers are working at?
here's an example of a petition to withdraw: http://www.petitiononline.com/...

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by: skip @ Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 13:01:09 PM CDT