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Why Mara Keisling Really Did Just Say That

by: Autumn Sandeen

Sun Jun 21, 2009 at 14:45:00 PM EDT



We have seen that the media and public preoccupation with transition-related surgeries has had demonstrable negative impact on policies that affect transpeople. It should not be acceptable to us or to society that people's human rights or access to appropriate ID documents or ability to live safely be dependent on their ability to be able to afford surgery which most transpeople cannot. And the preoccupation with our surgeries and the assumption that we all have surgeries or want surgeries makes these bad realities acceptable to the public.

As our collective work to make medical care more available to transpeople succeeds, the numbers of surgeries are likely to rise, but we have an obligation to discuss the realities of transgender lives in ways that are true to who we are and also help advance humane and useful policies.

~~Mara Keisling, in the National Center for Transgender Equality's (NCTE's) T-Equality Blog

Last week, I complained that I believed Mara Keisling gave the wrong message about trans people's healthcare when she was quoted by CNN in their article entitled Sonny and Cher's child transitioning from female to male -- the one on Chaz Bono's female-to-male transition.

Now, I'm less sure.

Mara Keisling's article commenting on the correctness of her original statement is reprinted in entirety below the fold (by permission).

I'm ready to be persuaded I'm wrong. It seems to me though that the CNN reporter either took the message that NCTE was trying to send and boiled it down to something that NCTE wasn't trying to communicate, or I filtered what NCTE was trying to say about the healthcare of trans people through my own biases and saw something in the original CNN article that wasn't really in the NCTE statement.

Let us know in the comments what you think -- especially if you're not trans. Since the CNN article wasn't directed at a trans audience, your thoughts about what message you were and weren't sent by the original CNN piece is probably the more important viewpoint than Mara's or mine.

Autumn Sandeen :: Why Mara Keisling Really Did Just Say That
From the the National Center For Transgender Equality's T-Equality Blog post, entitled Mara Keisling Really Just Did Say That:

Whenever I am fortunate enough to be on national television, it seems to get a lot of attention in the trans community. Usually NCTE will hear from transpeople and allies and enemies and usually, no matter how good or bad I thought the particular appearance, we get both positive and negative reviews. Oddly, this time, it was not my appearance on CNN news last week that got the attention and comments, but my giving background information on the telephone to a reporter from CNN.com. We don't actually keep track, but I think this is the media mention that has generated the most comments in NCTE's history-both good and bad-and I find that really interesting.

At NCTE, all of us have learned to listen to the comments and learn from them-sometimes we learn to communicate better to the media and sometimes we learn that we need to communicate with transpeople better.

It is clear though that, at the very least, we haven't adequately communicated to our own family about how and why we do media and what are the things we'd like you to take into account when you hear us in the media. First, be assured that we have a very passionate commitment here to do the very best we know how to do to make a positive difference in the lives of trans people. We may not always get it right, and we recognize that as transpeople we don't always agree, but everything we do is with an eye towards furthering trans equality.

Let's talk about what was in the CNN story and how it happened and then I'll explain why I stand by what I said-though I believe it was given more emphasis than it should have.

Last week, as most of you know, a celebrity was reported to be transitioning. The celebrity in question is not someone I have ever met. Neither he nor his publicist has been in touch directly with NCTE. However they did issue a statement confirming the transition and asking for privacy. This meant that NCTE was going to get calls, but we are very resolute about respecting every transperson's privacy. If a reporter asked a direct question, giving a "no comment" or too evasive of a response could be read as a negative comment (i.e. we have some issue with this person in particular and that's why we won't say)."

The first thing we do at NCTE when a potential big news story emerges is gather a group of experts and advisers and consider a) what is the right messaging and b) who are the right messengers. We take our messenging very serious and approach it thoroughly, thoughtfully and professionally. In this case, the who was much clearer than the what. The half dozen or so folks who met about this initially agreed that one of the best parts of this story was that it was among the first times a celebrity or potential celebrity was going public from the FTM spectrum. This might be a chance for us all to address the relative invisibility of transmen. With that assumption, we all agreed that the best spokespeople for this story would be transmen. Thus, I did almost no media interviews, background or otherwise-just the very first CNN request, a Florida newspaper when a reporter I knew called, and then the CNN television thing when none of the several prepared transmen were available to be near a suitable studio.

So before we had assembled and discussed a strategy, a reporter from CNN called and said something like "so I suppose you have heard that Chastity Bono announced she is having sex change surgery." I said something like, "be careful, that is not what the announcement from his publicist said. It said he was transitioning." The reporter said something like "I don't understand. Don't you need to have sex change surgery to transition?"

I then explained factually, as I have done over the years to dozens and dozens of reporters that no, transitioning is first and foremost not about surgery but about gender identity and living and expressing that identity. For some people surgery is desired or necessary, for others it is not. For some there are medical contraindications that preclude surgery. And many, if not most, trans people just can't afford it and many others don't feel surgery is necessary for them to live consistently with their gender identity. In fact, most transpeople do not have any kind of surgery.

I know that the general public and even transgender people find that surprising, but it is nonetheless true. Every study that I am familiar with supports that. The findings from a survey of 6,500 transpeople that NCTE has jointly conducted with the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force will be released soon and that study supports this as well. I have no doubt about the accuracy of what I said. Whether it is interpreted to be about "transgender" people, "transsexual" people or even "transsexual people who are living consistently with their gender identity," it is still accurate. Very few trans people ever have surgery. More importantly though, and the point I made to CNN, is that the important thing for them to consider when covering transgender people is gender identity not surgery.

We have seen that the media and public preoccupation with transition-related surgeries has had demonstrable negative impact on policies that affect transpeople. It should not be acceptable to us or to society that people's human rights or access to appropriate ID documents or ability to live safely be dependent on their ability to be able to afford surgery which most transpeople cannot. And the preoccupation with our surgeries and the assumption that we all have surgeries or want surgeries makes these bad realities acceptable to the public.

As our collective work to make medical care more available to transpeople succeeds, the numbers of surgeries are likely to rise, but we have an obligation to discuss the realities of transgender lives in ways that are true to who we are and also help advance humane and useful policies.

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Equality for all is the only answer
If we had true equality for people, gender, gender-identification, and all the other stuff that balls us up would not be an issue.

Discussions of surgery and who has what organs are important because we don't have equal human and civil rights, and a universal healthcare system.

Maybe we should form the Equality Party.

Liz

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)


From Old, Straight, Doc.

So my perspective is 'warped' from more knowledge, understanding, and caregiver empathy.  But still boils down to "Live and Let Live." "The Golden Rule" with overlay of Hippocratic Oath on top.

It will be very important with this new celebrity in the publics minds to get that study out so we can all quote the stats. Included as a footnote or in a separate short report should be a description (again, I know) of all the processes that go into aiding a person achieve their perceived gender identity, with an emphasis that every step is optional.  This should be brief enough to forward to all appropriate media outlets.

I do think it would be good to also reiterate at which point(s) it is recommended that people begin to use their chose identity in communication... and at what point a change in ID's are appropriate.. I guess that differs state by state (?).

All in all.. The discussion is certainly open, and more knowledge is always useful.

Good luck, to Chaz and all beginning, in the middle and at the end of their own

identity pursuit. 



It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


How I read it
I'm not trans and I read the article as making a distinction between transitioning and reassignment surgery. That was my overall take away from it.

I know when you're closer to something you tend to really notice the details. But here I think the detail that most non-trans are going to notice is the difference between transition and reassignment.


I know you asked for non trans people to respond
however this transperson is feeling talkative and can't resist answering :)

I personally found nothing wrong with Mara's initial comments in the CNN article, although I could also see how people could read her comment differently. I particularly like Mara's quote regarding media fixation with trans surgeries. It's all too true that cis people, even some trans people, believe that gender transition isn't complete until surgery (donning my stylish flameproof dress now). This belief can color how we are treated by society, and also sometimes by each other, that somehow we aren't the genders we say we are until the magical moment. But, as difficult as it can be to live in between or outside the binary, there are those of us who don't desire surgery, for any number of reasons. I think it's important to get this message out there. Without negating the desires of those who do want surgeries.  


At issue is what was left unsaid...
>I'm ready to be persuaded I'm wrong.

I think both you and Mara were right, Autumn, at issue is what was left unsaid. Mara is a dear friend and a personal hero of mine. While her point was correct that surgical status should never limit the legitimacy or civil rights of transpeople in our affirmed roles, her response neglected an equally important point -- that the transcommunity is diverse and includes people for whom access to hormones and/or surgeries is medically necessary and often lifesaving. This omission and the flippant tone of her statement raised understandable concern among transfolk who have suffered anatomic dysphoria and work toward better access to transition medical care. Autumn, you were correct to voice that concern.

In statements to main-stream media, it is both challenging and important to use language that is sufficiently inclusive of the breadth of diversity that comprises our community. It is essential to emphasize both concurrent issues of (1) dignity and civil justice for all transpeople and (2) access to medically necessary transition care for those who need it.  


That's why I have mixed feelings...

...I agree with Mara, and I agree with my initial take on the issue too as well. Basically, I agree that Mara, you, and I are all correct on this issue.

Personally, I'm body dismorphic and will need to have genital reconstruction surgery "soon." However, our community is diverse enough that we do need to emphasize our concurrent issues  -- concurrent issues that you stated so perfectly...

It is essential to emphasize both concurrent issues of (1) dignity and civil justice for all transpeople and (2) access to medically necessary transition care for those who need it.

Very well said, Kelley.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Access to health care...
I think Mara's explanation is very well thought through, sensitive, and I agree that if the statistics support her assertion that few transpeople get surgery, then she is justified in saying so.

As a nontrans person, I think my immediate response is "hmmm, I wonder why [not many transgender people have surgery]?"  Mara listed some reasons, but I also wonder if it isn't important to really emphasize that the lack of access to health care plays a large role, as does the lack of job security for those who aren't able to be "out" on the job.

I think it's also important to explain that a transgender identity is not necessarily synonymous with a transsexual identity.  The more we talk about many shades of gender identity and expression, I think more non-trans people will "get it" because a lot of non-trans identified people display gender nonconforming characteristics, including straight people.


Surgery for transmen.
I'm not too up to date with what surgeries are available to transmen but from what I am aware the surgeries available to them have poor/unsatisfactory results which may, along with cost, play a part in their choice to obtain surgery.

[ Parent ]
I think I understood Mara.
The mainstream media focuses on transition as a "sex change" - someone who is a man is becoming a woman, or a woman is becoming a man, with SRS. The media makes it seem that the transition process is a change of sex, rather than a confirmation of "true sex" - bringing the genitalia in conformity with the brain.

Mara's point, as I understood it, was to challenge this media-fostered popular notion that the surgery involves a change of sex.  This would go hand in hand with promoting the idea that it isn't the surgery that accomplishes a "change" - ths surgery (if we can have it, or feel the need for it) only serves to make us more comfortable with ourselves.

Mara is also correct about the numbers who actually have surgery.  More wuld have it if we could, while others don't have the feeling that surgery for themselves is absolutely necessary, and others don't feel the need at all.

I am frustrated by what looks like a universal rule that refuses SRS to the significantly overweight.  


I don't know
what you took issue with on her original statement, so I can't speak to that.

What I read here is that being trans is not about getting a surgical procedure done. In the same way being a gay man is not about having your dick in another man's mouth. It might involve that, but it might not, and either is perfectly fine, and neither necessarily excludes you from the group.

I see it as a positive message; one meant to make people understand that gender is between the ears, not the legs.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing


Surgery Is Required
What a bunch of crap Mara you did a survey which included a whopping 6500 people wow !! Like that fairly repersents the Trans communtiy. The fact is just because most Transexxuals can't afford surgery doesn't mean they do not want it, and it also doesn't mean we should or can just wish surgery away as a necassary part of transition....I think one point you failed ot make is there is a HUGE differance between the Transgender community and the Transexual Community and your comments that surgery isn't needed may apply to the cder  transvestite crowd but it in NO way applies to the Transexuals diagonsis with GID You flipped respoine has just confusess the general public even more...... and now I'm sure they really do see Transition as merly a choice when for most of us its a last resort before suicide.

Living in ones choosen gender is but one step in transtion as is blood work hormones, name change and counseling..... The lack of affortiblity or access to the does not nagate their importance as you imply...........nor does living in as one feels comfortable equate to transtion.

Brandi Parker


Sorry but I really can't see your issue here.
What I took from what she said:
* Surgery IS necessary for some transpeople.
* Surgery is not the ONLY path for transpeople to affirm their gender.
* Because not every transperson can/will get surgery for any number of reasons
   surgery should not be a barrier to receiving gender appropriate documentation.

[ Parent ]
My Issue
Uh Kitty I think surgery should remain the threshole for appropriate documents.....The whole transitonal process has been high jacked by wanta bee's and do it yourselfers...who are now whinning because the system won't bend to their wacked out way of thinking and see them as men and women without the surgeries that align thier bodies with the gender the ywish to live in.......I believe transiton can and should only be done under the strictest set of rules following the SOC guidelines to the letter... and anyone who can't or doesn't want to follow those guidelines shouldn't have or be allowed to have surgery. I also believe that grouping Transexxuals in with transgenders is a mistake and wrong they are very differant groups of gender variant people who have totally differant issues..... Transexuals fall under the diagnosis of GID and have been shown to actual have female brains  is a ligitimate medical condition were as transgender ie: cders,transvestites,drag queens and shemales are those individuals who merly are expressing a fantasy brought to life and are excersing a hobbie a fedish. Now I known my opinions aren't those of most, but I am entitled to them as are others to theirs.

Brandi Parker  


[ Parent ]
...
ie: cders,transvestites,drag queens and shemales are those individuals who merly are expressing a fantasy brought to life and are excersing a hobbie a fedish.

Not cool...


[ Parent ]
I Agree With Kitty
You are disrespecting the identities of others.  Your identity is no more valid than other peoples.  I can only surmise you are one of those HBS types.  To use Star Wars terminology.... you have gone to the Dark Side.  Give up the internalized transphobia (that's what it is) and deal with your shame issues.  And if you're wondering my status: I am what you would call an affirmed woman.

By trying to divide the community with your separatists mentality you play right into the hands of our enemies.

United we stand and divided we fall.


[ Parent ]
However...
TO be united, we still have to do something that's really hard.

And that's recognize that we have within our whole group, those very same guilt ridden, defensive, sexist types, and that they are part of the whole.

I've known some communities where they are excluded. Which is just as bad as what they do.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Please consider the experience of one gay transman
Ms Parker, what kind of surgery do you believe should be the threshol(d)?  How much "aligning" would you suggest is sufficient to be able to live in one's true self-identified gender?

While living in San Francisco, I had my "top" surgery two months after starting testosterone and had all my ID ducks in their rows in January of 2001 -- Social Security card, drivers license, letter from surgeon.  (The one thing I didn't get until 2003 was a court-ordered sex change so I could get a new birth certificate from my home state of Wisconsin.)  I did not, nor do I ever intend to, obtain genital surgery for some of the usual reasons -- cost, unpredictable outcomes, and quite frankly a lot of satisfaction with my sexual functioning as it was and not wanting to risk at least one more invasive surgery and the consequent down time.  I also did not spend years in "therapy" to prove to some medical bureaucrats that I knew what I was doing.  I had physicians and a surgeon who took me at my word and allowed me the medical and limited surgical interventions I needed for my own body-spirit alignment.

But I do call myself a transexual.  I am neither a "wanta bee" nor a "do it yourselfer" (are there people who do their own surgeries??!!??), nor am I expressing a fantasy or enjoying a "fedish".

Supposing your views were the prevailing ones -- how on earth is a male-chested, fully bearded, deep-voiced person supposed to, say, fly in an airplane or get a passport, with the letter "F" instead of "M" on his ID documents?

I'm glad if the SOC have worked for you and other transfolk.  But they are guidelines, not laws.  Not all of us choose to jump in the medical condition pool -- although I sure understand the economic necessity of doing so if you have insurance that will help if you can't afford to get done what you need any other way.  One of the things I think is "wacked" is that SOCIETY insists we have to claim we have a sickness that has to be treated in order to be able to use one restroom rather than another.  (I know, I know, sooner or later it all comes down to bathrooms....)


[ Parent ]
As a non-trans person
who shares the main challenge that FtMs express issues about--the all powerful bathroom segregation--this comment helped me to better grasp what the issues are.

Both with Mara's comment and with Brandi's response to it.

Not to flamethrow but out of curiosity: Is there unity between FtMs and MtFs in general about the importance of surgery to the transition process? Or is there a gap in perception between the two groups?

As an outsider, I assume that there may be political unity but on the question 'When does Chastity become Chaz?' it's a hot potato.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Two Diff Camps
Phoenix The answer to your question is this FTM and MTF while both are similiar in that they both feel they are in the wrong bodies and they both under go a transitional process....they normally don;t like hang out together since the process in transiting is very differant for both and we face different issues in our transitions. So you could kida say were like cousins, or distant relations.

The issue that is being dicussed right now is whether surgery is required for transition..... and I think were the problem stems from is that way back when transition was done under the guidlines of the HBS and the SOC was followed but once the nternet came along many who just wanted to indulge thier fantasy started doing so and they found that they could go around those safety gates set up by the HBS and get hormones via the internet and that doctors in Thialand would dod surgeries without the required letters from a doctor then this abuse spread like wildfire and its only gotten worse as the yrs have gone by now it's very hard to find someone like myself who's followed the SOC and done transition correctly and actual has a diagnosis. There are some out there but we're few and far between.

Brandi Parker  


[ Parent ]
self identity
I do not understand why anyone must have another person's seal of approval before they can declare what their own gender/sex is.

Why must it be up for discussion?


[ Parent ]
Because
Keith I think it's because at it's origin GID is a medical condition and there for requires a Medical Diagnosis......the problem is those like Jake who feel they are compitant to make this diagnosis completely on their on and do it their self without a Qualifed Medical Professional......I known before i go making a huge change like changing genders surgeries and hormone replament therapy I'd wanta to known I was doing the right thing and doing it safely.....but so many seem prefectly contend to down a pill or jab themselves with a needle without a doctor.... hormaones are very dangerous and will kill you if used improperly....oh well to each their own and the community wonders why so many success ful MTF goe steath and want nothing to do with the community. why wouldn't we when ever nut job in th world is wanting to asscoeate themsleves with you.

Brandi Parker  


[ Parent ]
Medical Diagnosis?
Who is more qualified to diagnose me than me regarding my identity? Just as when I go to the doctor for my migraine headaches my doctor trusts I know I have a migraine even though I have never been to medical school. I know my body. I know me. My identity doesn't need to be diagnosed.

I'm not advocating taking medications or performing surgeries without proper medical advice or supervision. But I feel it is wrong to say these options are only available to someone in need only if a so-called expert gives their seal of approval and allows them access. We don't need diagnosing; just assistance with the physical transformation. (For those that desire physical conformity.)

But those that do not wish to physically alter their bodies to match what society dictates as appropriate for their gender identity should not be discriminated against. They know their identities, too. They know whether physical conformity is correct for them. It should not be for anyone else to decide what is correct for each individual. All decisions should be made by that individual; not a committee.


[ Parent ]
No, Ms Parker
I did not make a "diagnosis".  I do/did not have a "disease".  I never said I transitioned FtM without medical direction and supervision.  I went to my primary care physician and asked her to whom does she refer her TG/TS patients.  She gave me a couple referrals to other physicians who had experience with sex/gender identity issues and I chose one.  Then, through the local FtM support group, I obtained references for surgeons and again, I interviewed some and chose one.

I would respectfully ask you to not call me and others like me a "problem" because our choices in determining our own medical care were different from yours.


[ Parent ]
Interesting
I and a a transman locally run a support group with the specific intent of bringing transmen and transwomen together.

As a result, we've found that the process for transition is far more alike than it is different. Indeed, the differences are relatively minor.

So more like, oh, brothers and sisters.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Excellent point - no flamethrow at all
I am not a trans-activist, just a transman.  I speak only about my own experiences.  I think MtFs and FtMs have different societal issues to deal with and overcome because gender expectations and "rules" are different for standard-issue men and women -- I guess what we call "cis" here.  In my albeit limited experience with gender groups, it seems that surgeries are "easier" for MtFs and hormone replacement is "easier" for FtMs in terms of being able to live successfully in the chosen gender.

At one time there were more MtF genital surgeries than FtM ones, don't know if that's still true.  But I sure don't know if that means it's more important to transwomen than it is to transmen.  It might be more unreachable because it is more complicated and expensive, but for many transmen no less important.

As to when Chastity becomes Chaz -- I believe that's entirely up to him.


[ Parent ]
If surgery "should be the threshold" for documentation . . .
. . . then surgery should be available to those who need it and are over 210 pounds (or a 28 BMI, as at least one surgeon has put it, which is about 195 pounds for a 5' 10" individual). Since surgery isn't available to everyone who needs it, I think a reliance on SRS as a determinant for documentation is unfairly exclusionary.

Essentially the whole thing about "documentation" is a matter of reasonable accommodation.  Those of us who are born with HBS have a brain that developed in accordance with the expectations of one sex assignment, and genitalia that developed using the duct system (mullerian or wolffian) that is associated with the "other" sex assignment.

Essentially, we do not belong in the original assigned sex, and technically while our brain development would support reassignment to the other binary sex, we are truly "other" - having attributes of both sexes but truly belonging to neither.

SRS allows for better assimilation into the binary sex that matches up with an HBS person's brain development and identity - but actually "belonging" to either sex is a matter of an arbitrary decision.  The large majority of people have brains and genitalia that match up well enough that for them, birth genital shape is a sufficient marker for assigning a binary sex.

Western society does not include a "third sex" or "other" designation for intersex people, or for transsexual people.  All we can reasonably expect is a "reasonable accommodation" within the binary, regardless of whether we are post-op, pre-op or non-op.

What SRS should allow is a full recognition of membership in the sex conforming to the brain development.  However, for those who are not post-op, other methods should be available to permit recognition.  Several states (including New York and Massachusetts) permit driver license and non-driver ID changes based on a medical or mental health professional certification.  This should e good enough for most purposes (except for marriage where marriage is limited to "opposite sex" members, or situations where public nudity is required).  Under no circumstances should non-op and pre-op individuals be grouped with members of the incorrect originally-assigned sex in places like prisons or bathrooms.  

Such a nuanced approach would be fairer than resorting solely to SRS as a bright-line for legal recognition.


[ Parent ]
Depending on how they were selected
6500 could be very representative of the trans community in this country. They frequently do national studies with fewer people than that, to represent the entire population of the country. If they did a true random selection, rather than a self-selected or screened sample, that would be a hell of a sample.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

[ Parent ]
Huge difference, Brandi?
I can only see one, and its only within the last 100 years it became possible.

She spoke to the entire trans community -- which includes the much larger ones you are distancing yourself from with language that borders on the rude, disrespectful, and cruel.

Not just to transsexuals.  She did not say transsexuals.  She said transgender, and that does include transsexuals in the manner in which she speaks.

She wasn't wishing it away.  She was pointing out it a LOT bigger than just us.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Brandi does not speak for all transwomen
Many of us consider the "Qualified Medical Profession" which Brandi apparently reveres to be oppressive colonizers who have historically exploited transwomen in the pursuit of their own professional careers. The unproven psychopathological GID theories these MD's have concocted are the original source of the "true transsexuals" versus "fetishistic transgenders" dichotomy that Brandi claims is a "medical diagnosis".

In past decades, these MD's were able to claim official roles as medical gatekeepers, barring transwomen who did not meet their arbitrary heterosexist categories of transsexual purity from access to hormonal and surgical treatments. These days, medical treatment is available from a wide variety of independent sources, though it is expensive and not usually covered by insurance.

While the influence of the GID psychopathologists has steadily diminished over the years, many transwomen who were fortunate to pass their criteria for treatment internalized the demeaning stereotypes they promulgated about the rest of us, whom they stigmatize as fetishistic sexual deviants. Once anointed as "true" transsexuals by virtue of genital surgery, that distinction becomes the core of a self-aggrandizing separatist gender essentialism that reinforces their elite post-op status while castigating trans people who choose not to have bottom surgery as genderqueer "wannabees".

They also tend to be straight-laced, authoritarian, and condescending, which further isolates them as strident reactionaries within the diverse and predominantly open-minded spectrum of trans folks.


[ Parent ]
Bla Bla Bla
There were a lot of long winded big words in there that amounts to nothing more then your opinion.... please try using logic to prove your point and not try to razal dazal us with your use big words.............none of what you said is fact it's all your opinion which as far as I known isn't of a medical one................just because some transexuals can't effort or have surgery for some other medical reason isn't a reason to digard the necassary step of surgery....if  they don't have the money then they save like the rest of us did,or they push for stronger legislation that requires Insurance companys to cover it, but you don;t blow it off as not neccassary.

No wonder other Transexual women like myself who can blend flawlessly into society don't stick around to help.....who would want ot be accoseated with some of the nut jobs asking the world to create a third sex just for them....since they can't effort or do not want surgery....really you thin soicety is ggoing to bend just to suit you and the others who do not want to fit into soicety's mold ? ..............not gonna happen no matter how long you push,whine and bitch.

Brandi Parker  


[ Parent ]
Blend away then.
I'm sure the quality of discussion will be all the better without you to disrespect everyone who doesn't conform to your narrow minded prejudices.  

[ Parent ]
IF you ask that, Brandi, then you need to do likewise.
Or shall we have a redux of you and I going at from 16 months ago at Topix?

Your bigotry, sexism, and puerile attempts at logic are just as weak now as they were then.

As for :others like yourself:, well, note that I'm cuter than you are, and I'm sticking around.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Society's mold?
Actually, society's mold is not fixed. It has fluctuated over the centuries and within communities.

What present day society defines as proper for each gender (female/male) is not necessarily what was proper just a century ago. From articles of clothing and jewelry to hair styles and occupations. All arbitrary rules. Why are some things considered only appropriate for one gender and not the other?

I have always felt that a rigid binary system is faulty from the start. Too many people don't fit. But for our discussion, let's assume that a binary system is best. That said, then...

I assume that you acknowledge that there are people for whom their bodies at birth do not match the gender to which they associate mentally and emotionally. I also assume you can understand that many people's financial situation is such that there is barely enough cash to cover necessities like food & shelter. This is especially true for those that find employment difficult because of the prejudge against people who don't fit "society's mold."

To tell these people that they can't be referred to by the gender they know themselves to be until after they have completed SRS even though there is no way for them to do so (assuming they even wished to have SRS) is unconscionable.

Do you feel you were a man prior to your surgery?

If not why do you feel they are the gender assigned to them at birth until they have SRS?
Or if you feel you were a man prior to your surgery then why did you have SRS? Then aren't you really a man pretending to be a woman?

I do not mean this as a personal attack. I just want you to consider what you seem to be saying. It appears as though you think genitalia define who we are. I and many here believe that SRS is a tool that may be used to inline our bodies with our identities; but should never define us. We are the gender we are regardless of what genitalia we presently possess or how we are perceived.


[ Parent ]
Surgery fixation
I agree that there really is a public, media, and legal fixation on SRS. Just prior to my formal workplace transition I legally changed my name. However, in Pennsylvania I was unable to change the sex on my driver license and the federal government does not allow the sex to be changed on a passport until the naughty bits have been properly nipped and tucked. I had a pretty miserable 6 months in limbo, afraid to travel and forbidden from using the men's or women's room at work (GE). Fortunately for me, I had the money, wanted the surgery, and was fortunate to have my schedule moved up through someone else's cancellation. I cannot imagine how I would have coped if I didn't have the money or didn't want the surgery. A person in this situation would be "outed" every time they show ID and would have a nearly impossible time finding a job. I would probably have wound up dead. The system can actually pressure t-folks into surgical procedures they may not actually want.

Response from a trans-activist cis woman
I actually think it's fantastic that an advocate for trans rights is making it clear that not all trans people want surgery! Even among people who have some understanding of trans issues, there is a tendency to assume that people who don't want surgery aren't "really" trans or that only transsexuals who fully physically transition need legal protections. Many laws certainly privilege fully-physically-transitioned people over those who either choose not to have surgery or cannot afford it. Obviously, affordability should be addressed, and surgery should be recognized as a real NEED for people who need it, but not everyone needs or wants it; needing or having surgery should not be the only legitimate "way" to be trans.

Although I am not trans, my understanding of this issue is influenced by the fact that I have several trans friends--some of whom have or plan to have surgery, and some of whom have and do not--and the fact that I am active in the fight for trans rights. I can only hope that distinction is as clear to cis people who do not know trans people, are not educated about trans issues, and read the article.

Living deliberately with passion and sense: http://passionatesense.blogspo...

Living deliberately with passion and sense: Truth & Beauty Bombs


Most Americans don't speak English
And very few voted for Obama.

Hardly anyone did in Brazil, for example, or Manitoba.

The problem is in the common mistake of using "American" as a synonym for "USAian". Or "Transgender" as a synonym for "Transsexual".

But for someone in the US to say "well, those who live south pf the border aren't really American" is as problematic as saying that part-time cross-dressers aren't really Transgendered.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse


[ Parent ]
Both
I identify as genderqueer/genderfluid and transsexual and write this as someone who doesn't want any transition-related surgery.

I'll echo some of the other comments: The issues Autumn raises -- that we need to fight against propaganda that invalidates those who need surgeries and gets those surgeries classified as "cosmetic" -- are just as important as those Mara raises -- that public conflation of transition and surgeries supports essentialist legal barriers keeping gender-non-conforming individuals from being recognized as human beings and supports essentialist class barriers preventing people who do need surgeries and can't afford them from being recognized as human beings.

These are very much the same fight. Not every person who identifies as transgender also IDs as transsexual, but not every person who IDs as transsexual needs surgeries. If we fight for transexual medical rights by normalizing transition surgeries, by reinforcing the imposed idea of the monolithic Transsexual Narrative, we've only strengthened the divisive prejudices against which Autumn and Mara are speaking out and have weakened the fight for gender-non-conforming legal recognition elsewhere.

So I don't think either you or Mara are wrong, Autumn. You're just representing different aspects of the same side. Unfortunately Mara was limited to a sound bite.


Keisling was quoted in the CNN article as saying,
Almost no transgender people ever have surgery. We don't have any idea how many do.
Can we agree that if her second statement is true, then her first statement must be false?  Or, to be more generous, unsupported.

No.
Because Tri-Ess members are a huge crowd (of straight men!), drag queens are a huge crowd, gender queer folks are a huge crowd (and growing), "classic transgender" folks are a huge crowd, and all the other variances involved in gender variant communities make up a huge crowd, all of which combined are still bigger than the million transsexuals who have had, will have, cannot have, do not want, and whatever else that surgery.

Transsexuals are just the noisiest about it, because you get us our stuff, you get everyone else there theirs.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Eh?
Try this:

"Almost no self-identified white people ever have their tonsils removed. We don't have any idea how many do."

"Almost no city residents pay their real estate taxes on time.  We don't have any idea how many do."

Do you not see my point?  This has nothing to do with how you define the terms.

Transsexuals are just the noisiest about it, because you get us our stuff, you get everyone else there theirs.
Huh?

[ Parent ]
Important Distinction
I agree with what you've said, but I also feel that if someone has a Gender Identity that doesn't match their birth sex, and they go through the transition they should want surgery if not it puts in doubt their need to transition or their claim of having GID.

Brandi Parker


[ Parent ]
And that crosses my line into bigotry.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Not quite
Your point is a good one, but your examples are flawed.

Better construction to more accurately represent why class/group matters:

>>Almost no transsexual people ever have surgery.<<  This is something we do not know and do not have reasonable data on.  It is separate from the question of transgender, however, which is a much wider group, despite the bigotry of certain other posters.

>>Almost no white people ever understand the black expereince.<<  This would be closer to the original assertion -- and is a fairly accurate statement.

>>Almost no brunettes people ever have died hair.<< and example closer to what is being expressed as your particular read on the matter.

>>Almost no pink eyed people have significant melanin in their skin<< a more effective read on what's being said.

Class/Definition count.  The fact we tend to limit our general thought regarding trans (gender) folk to transsexuals is actually due to a lack of understanding just what exactly the subject is, especially from the viewpoint of the speaker, which is required, since its identity discourse.

As for the last bit, well, think about it :D

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
This thread quickly devolved into the usual discussion
about what constitutes being transgender and whether or not GRS is necessary.  Although that gets to the very heart of what straight society understands about this thing called LGBT, I was not addressing those issues.

I was simply pointing out (both here and below) that Keisling made a statement of fact without producing ANY facts.


[ Parent ]
Ok.
And on that, I have to question the idea that she didn't present any facts in and of itself.

The reason it sorta gets into the what constitute's such is that people are not accepting as fact that the majority of the now classic "straight guy who dresses up in girl's clothing" CD (usually called a TV) doesn't want a sex change AND is part of the trans community.

And so on for the rest.  These are facts -- to use the above example, to fall into that classification, one cannot want the surgery, strictly speaking.

ALl those little groups exist because of certain basic facts, so she did indeed present facts, she simply didn't present some sort of newly quantified data.

I have a needs assessment done for the local community here  That's a question I asked (do you want GRS?). THis was a trans survey, so it went beyond just transsexuals.

Its not that I don't see your point, its that you are thinking its about numbers, when its not.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Important Distinction
Mara has made it very clear that gender identity trumps all, including surgery, and I have to agree.  The public focuses way too much on surgery and believeing that one "becomes" their gender through surgery.  NO! NO! NO!  Mara is trying to get the point across that it's about gender identity.  If anything she needs to push point even MORE.  Gender identity is inborn and unchangeable..... that is why we transition (to make the body & mind match AND assume a gender appropriate role in society).

But any way you slice it, it is a tough lesson to teach.  Most of the general public either doesn't grasp the concept or refuse to.  We must continue to pound into them the truth about what gender identity is.  Once someone understands what it is they usually "get it".  It being the need to transition.

my 2 cents.

p.s. I'm fully transitioned.


"I have no doubt...." Okay, but what about data?
The raison d'ĂȘtre of Ms. Keisling's follow-up piece seems twofold: to explain the process of how she came to be quoted in the CNN article; and to substantiate her most provocative statement - "Almost no transgender people ever have surgery."

The first point is taken care of in a fairly straight-forward manner.  But what of the second, about the purported lack of surgery?  Here's what really raises red flags for me.  We are given a sort of appeal to authority argument - but without any authority!  What I mean is, if you're going to claim as she does that, "Every study that I am familiar with supports that," then doesn't it behoove her at the bare minimum to drop in some links to some of these studies?  Or even if they aren't available for online reading, simply cite a few?

On the other hand, she does reference one survey - with which she is personally involved; that hasn't even been made public; about which she offers no details; but which she claims supports her assertions. No methodology; no data.  That's just bad science.  Well, really, it's not science at all.

Keisling states, "I have no doubt about the accuracy of what I said."  Translation #1:  Trust me.  Translation #2:  I'm right because I said so.

So, how to judge "the correctness of her original statement," as Autumn puts it?  Simple.  One cannot.


gay, married, white, cis mid-40's male here - I think her overall statement
makes a great point that transitioning is not the same as "sex change".  Too many in the general public seem to view this as some sort of "playing dress up" until the "real" event - not looking at as a process rather than as a destination.

Great post by Mara ...
Thanks for cross-posting!

The CNN.com article didn't include any mention from Mara on the importance of surgery and other kinds of medical care.  Also the editing is kind of weird; Mara's "It's sort of a general term that encompasses both or either a social transition or a medical transition" seems like a description of transitioning, but in the article it's positioned right after a discussion of what percentage of people are transsexuals.  Sloppiness by media, film at 11.  So I can see that the CNN article may have sent some undesirable messages...

jon


jon


Transition vs. Sex Change
Okay, so I've always thought these terms were synonymous. (I'm a trans man by the way, for those who don't know). But maybe I view the term "sex" a little differently, because I see it as encompassing the entire body, not just the genitals. I shy away from the term FTM, because to think of myself as transitioning from female to male is a misnomer. My brain is part of my body, so if part of my brain was male to begin with, I was never 100% female. And as long as my chromosomes are XX, I will never be 100% male. (Sex, male, and female, being scientific terms relating to the composition of the body are distinct from gender). Really, I'm going from one form of in-between to another. Still, I see nothing wrong with calling that a sex change--It is certainly a change, and one that involves physical sex characteristics throughout the body.

As xrk9854 does great job of pointing out above, the general public focuses way too much on genital surgery. I remember an episode of South Park where a trans man wakes up during surgery and asks, "Am I a man yet?" And that is how most people think of sex change. Getting them to think of it as a process instead may involve getting them to change the way they think about sex (i.e. the notion that penis=male and vagina=female) and gender (male=man and female=woman).

I'll admit that have do have trouble with the term "transition" being used outside of it's medical sense. I mean no disrespect to non-transsexual transgender people, but I tend to think of transition as involving at least HRT. There is of course a coming out process for non-transsexual transgender people, but to use the same word for that (transition) that we use for medical transition has got to be confusing to the general public.

Tax the Christian Taliban!


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