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Aravosis Needs To Issue His Own Apology To Trans People Before Citing TGs Regarding Fed LGBT Issues

by: Autumn Sandeen

Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 12:00:00 PM EDT



Oddly, Americablog blogger John Aravosis chosen to use a New York Times article on the improvement to the lots of transgender federal workers, entitled New Protections for Transgender Federal Workers to highlight the need for an apology from President Obama on the DOJ's recent DADT DOMA brief. Aravosis' piece begins as follows:

From the NYT:

Lawyers for President Obama are quietly drafting first-of-their kind guidelines barring workplace discrimination against transgender federal employees, officials said Tuesday.

The guidelines will be in an updated federal handbook for managers and supervisors to be distributed and posted online in the next couple of months, and they could also be included in other materials for managers. They will list transgender people - those who identify their gender differently from the information on their birth certificates - as among several groups protected by antidiscrimination laws.

This is a good thing, and an important step for the transgender community...

A "good thing" John? Really? You really think so?

Well, back to that point in a short bit. Aravosis, in this recent piece, calls for President Obama to apologize, and lists other grievances he has for the Obama Administration:

Not a word from the White House about that little chestnut. And there's the rub. It's great that the White House suddenly feels the need to act on a number of issues that help the gay community, only after we collectively beat the crap out of them. And they seem intent on finding every non-top-of-the-agenda item they can to "fix" in order to boost their pro-gay bona fides. Today, for example, we learn of the government's apology to Frank Kameny for having fired him 40 years ago for being gay. This is good thing. But again, it is not an explanation for how our president's DOJ could compare us to incest and pedophilia, and for why our president refuses to issue a stop-loss order preventing real governmental discrimination taking place today in 2009, not in 1957. It's almost as if the Obama administration hopes that if it can piece together a big enough list of small items, they can make us go away on our biggest issues, Obama's biggest promises, to repeal DOMA and DADT.

Let's remind the White House once again why we are all here:

• Will this president apologize for comparing our community to incest and pedophilia?

• Will he explain why the brief gratuitously argued for the dismantlement of the legal underpinning of our civil rights (suggesting that Loving v. Virginia had nothing to do with gay marriage equality)?

• Will he explain why our civil rights do not matter his making an exemption - which he is in his rights to do - to the standard, but not exclsuvei [sic], practice of a president defending existing law? Why won't he oppose DOMA in court?

And then there's DADT...

Funny now that Aravosis uses a piece that begins with a transgender component to begin an screed against the president's policies towards the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community. It's "funny" because John Aravosis has pretty much said that he doesn't believe transgender people belong in the  -- or perhaps I should say "his" and not the -- "gay community". And of course, he never apologized for his statement.

From Aravosis' Americablog piece of October 3rd, 2007 entitled The Transgender Fiasco, John Aravosis argued that he didn't feel transgender people should have been included in an lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community, and used the term gay community in the piece in a specific attempt to use a term that intentionally excluded lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people:

I would argue that the gay community never collectively and overwhelmingly decided to include the T in LGB (or GLB). It happened because a few groups like NGLTF and GLAAD starting using it, and they and a handful of vocal activists and transgender leaders pretty much shamed everyone else into doing it. Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the T shouldn't have been added. I'm just saying that I don't think the T was added because there was a groundswell of demand in the gay community that we add T to LGB. I think it happened through pressure, organizational fiat, shame, and osmosis.

And that is how we got into the mess we're in today.

Read the whole piece entitled The Transgender Fiasco, and see if you don't come away with the same thoughts I do when reading it -- my understanding that Aravosis doesn't want trans people in his "gay community". I'd say that The Transgender Fiasco, and its companion piece Should we kill ENDA if transgendered people aren't included?, should be real eye-openers for those who are both fans of transgender inclusion in ENDA and of the Americablog.

Hey, if Mr. Aravosis wants to rail against the Obama Administration for not doing enough for the LGBT community, I'm going to side with him -- the Obama Andministration hasn't done enough. But, for him to use a New York Times on transgender federal employement issues to argue that the Obama Administration owes the LGBT community an apology on the DADT brief? Oooooooooh no. That doesn't get a pass from me at all.

Mr. Aravosis owes an apology to the transgender subcommunity of the LGBT community for personally approving of kicking transgender people and issues out of the broad lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community for the benefit of ENDA 2007/2008, and now he currently owes a fresh apology to the transgender subcommunity  of the LGBT community for using a story about the transgender subcommunity to make a point about the Obama Administration's treatment of LGBT people.

Frankly, the term is overused, but I'm still going to use it here because I don't have a better term to describe how I feel about Aravosis' use of the transgender subcommunity  of the LGBT community to make a point about the Obama Administration: I'm offended by Aravosis' statement. When John Aravosis issues an apology to the transgender subcommunity, and he writes a piece about how he now embraces lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people in a broad lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender civil rights movement, then in my opinion he will have at least some sort of moral authority on which to turn news about the transgender subcommunity into calls for apologies.

Please. Mr. Aravosis should take a read at Matthew 7:

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Mr. Aravosis should be pulling the plank out of his own eye regarding trans people and issues before using transgender people to make a point on LGBT civil rights -- before using trans people and issues as a starting point for making a statement about how the Obama Administration needs to appologize regrding LGBT civil rights -- and that horrid DADT DOMA brief of a couple of weeks ago.

Autumn Sandeen :: Aravosis Needs To Issue His Own Apology To Trans People Before Citing TGs Regarding Fed LGBT Issues
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Mr. Aravosis should be pulling the plank out of his own eye regarding trans people and issues
I was thinking his head and another of his organs - but its your diary.  I'll defer to you :)

>^..^<

Aravosis No Fan of Trans People
I have been asked more than a few times why I don't link to AmericaBlog.

Until the whole fracas erupted over the "T" in "LGBT," I didn't know who he was. Then, a reader forwarded something he wrote which strenuously argued against the inclusion of the "T" in "LGBT." It was one of the strangest things I've read written by someone who is 1.): gay and, 2.): (allegedly) a liberal. There was so much hostility in his piece that it was as if he had been abused by a Trans person as a child and carried that anger into adulthood.

Frankly, I find Aravosis a rather shrill, hysterical and shameless self-promoter and that's all fine and good but the vitriol aimed at Trans folks seems bizarre and misplaced.

People ask, "How have you guys managed to stay so long?" I tell them, "Don't sweat the small stuff." It's mostly small stuff.


Generally that kind of abusive attitude
comes from someone who is apparently so insecure about their own gender, they feel the need to rail against others. To wit: "If we include the Ts, people will think I wear a dress sometimes too!"

[ Parent ]
Agreed
Several of my readers are former AB regulars. They report Aravosis has major issues with women and Trans folks. It's a shame.

People ask, "How have you guys managed to stay so long?" I tell them, "Don't sweat the small stuff." It's mostly small stuff.

[ Parent ]
Aravosis no liberal
I don't think he's really a "liberal" either. He's a one-note self-interested white cis gay man.

He is racist, sexist, and transphobic -- liberals are marked by not only caring for themselves, but for others with whom they make alliance.

And Aravosis wrote:

A lot of gays have been scratching their heads for 10 years trying to figure out what they have in common with transsexuals, or at the very least why transgendered people qualify as our siblings rather than our cousins. It's a fair question, but one we know we dare not ask. It is simply not p.c. in the gay community to question how and why the T got added on to the LGB, let alone ask what I as a gay man have in common with a man who wants to cut off his penis, surgically construct a vagina, and become a woman.

That is not how liberal queers talk about trans people. That is how former GOP senate staffers talk about trans people.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
It seems so obvious to me, a gay man...
We are all gender transgressors in the eyes of society, either by loving the 'wrong' gender, or living as the 'wrong' gender. Pretty simple. But I've had arguments with boneheaded gay friends who insist 'those people' are ruining 'our' cause.

It's all one cause, people.


Beautiful point
And so true.

[ Parent ]
Sad
It's sorry to see once again the ignorance of some folks who see themselves as superior to others when it comes to civil rights.

Don't the gay boys know that if it wasn't for a couple of those drag queens they look down on they wouldn't be where they are today?

Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Johnson should be named in the same breath as Harvey Milk, Bayard Rustin, and other early pioneers!

I am so bloody sick and tired of elitism within our community! We're all in this together, you morons!

This is the reason why the reicht is so successful in getting their agenda passed -- because we do their work for them when the macho gays look down on the queens and the sissy boys, when the dykes look down on transdykes, and both look down on our bisexual brothers and sisters, and the whiles look down on the non-whites, ad nauseum...

Listen to "TransTalk" every Thursday at 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org


[ Parent ]
I am fond of a quote from Ms Rivera
"This is the Revolution. I'm not missing a minute of it"

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
Basically we need to stop treating Aravosis like he speaks for the LGBT community on anything.
He's good at rabble-rousing, good at yelling at people on the tee-vee, good at generating memes that get picked up by the MSM, but terrible at strategy, terrible at analysis, and totally lacking any form of intersectional understanding of oppression.

He's also lacking in basic intellectual honesty, as has now been documented by
LawDork http://lawdork.wordpress.com/2...
Bilerico http://www.bilerico.com/2009/0...
and Box Turtle Bulletin http://www.boxturtlebulletin.c...

And the worst part is how Aravosis assaults anyone who doesn't agree with his views, as Geidner points out, "he attributes bad-faith or malintent to anyone - from President Obama to Chairman Barney Frank and others - who dare not to advance those misstatements and overstatements."

We need to put the pressure on, but we need to do it in a way that is honest, inclusive, tactical and intellectually rigorous.  


Though, the irony
is that he is so insane that even when he's right, he has lost so much credibility it doesn't even matter.

For example, any rational person has known that Obama is a homobigot ever since McClurkin.  But Avriosis decided (after a week of ranting about it) to promote the notion that Obama is some sort of friend to the GLBT community.

Now with the DOMA brief as one more example of Obama's bigotry, Avriosis' new howling just rings hollow.  The damage has been done.


[ Parent ]
actually, funny you bring that up.
Aravosis was the primary force behind the the McClurkin meme too.  And while there were good reasons to criticize Obama's foolish error in not vetting mcclurkin fully after he was recommended to the campaign by Oprah, Aravosis spent post after post lying about the episode, claiming baselessly that McLurkin was "one of obama's top surrogates!"  and that he said "gays are trying to kill our children".

One of the candidate's "top surrogates!"   A crazy guy that sang a couple songs at a total of 3 events!  Aravosis just can't be trusted.


[ Parent ]
Um, it was a flash
point in a critical state at a critical point in the primaries, and Obama stood his ground with a fellow homobigot.

And the Rick Warren episodes and the DOMA brief just brign furtther proof.  

Foolish error my ass.


[ Parent ]
a crazy guy that sang three songs?
that's all he was?  really?  

if that's your idea of honest, inclusive, tactical and intellectually rigorous reasoning, we'll never see results.  we need outrage.  it's our best weapon in gaining civil rights.  

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
One of the most popular gospel singers
in America. You have no idea ahow galvanized the African American community galvinized around Obama because of that "crazy guy with three songs."

[ Parent ]
Kevin's correct here
The McClurkin thing was a misstep by Obama.

In the AmericaBlogReality, that misstep became a deliberate Stab In The Back.

Because Aravosis, a white cis racist, does not like the idea of a black candidate. And also, Aravosis' whole business model is built on finding things to get outraged about and then asking for money.

Some liberals are amazed that people listen to someone like Rush Limbaugh or Michael Savage and don't immediately see through them. They think liberals are immune to that stuff.

It's not true. Aravosis is an example of the worst kind of conservative rabble-rouser; the kind who gets us to turn on each other. And pro-queer liberals keep falling for it -- even though Aravosis has proven repeatedly that he will sell out whoever he can in order to get what he wants.

Trans people should never trust him. Neither should anyone else -- he'll dump you as soon as he doesn't need you or you're a "liability" to his personal crusades.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
I'm a GBM from Chicago
and I don't need John Aravosis to tell me that the Donnie McClurkin episode was race and gay baiting at it's finest; a cynical move by the Obama campaign.

And didn't Aravosis (along with Sullivan, Andy Towle, and Dan Savage's newspaper) actually endorse Obama in the primaries?

Another thing;; Autumn has very publicaly that due to the nature of the way "cis" is being used in this particular thread, that people stop using and yet you continue to do so?


[ Parent ]
Aravosis and Obama
Aravosis was even more bothered by the idea of a woman candidate.

Autumn isn't the boss of me, and I don't believe (as some defensive non-trans queers do) identifying Aravosis -- a known anti-trans cissexist bigot -- as "cis" is insulting.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
he's taken the position of attack dog
and it's in a realm where more of them are desperately needed.  he takes his cues from the republican playbook--who, in case no one has noticed, is still having an obscene amount of political leverage despite their miserable approval ratings.  this is not surprising, given that he has often discussed his republican past.  it's classic republican talking points--sound bites, headlines that are caricatures of the actual events taking place, and distortions--that serve an end objective.  it generates outrage among readers/listeners.  and when it gets attention and the MSM will dutifully reports on it to a larger audience, that tactic can be ruled something of a success, don't you think?  

so he has SLIGHTLY maligned the events and the people surrounding the DOJ brief....the outrage that has been stirred up has been called historic, unprecedented.  in other words, it's worked.  we can be the attack dogs from time to time too, and i think it's refreshing to not be on the receiving end of malignment, for once.

i can understand the anger over aravosis's support to ditch the trans community over the last ENDA bill, but the general tone of his general worthlessness in these comments is unmerited.    

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
Agreed 100%
If the LGBT community keeps sitting around singing songs and patting itself on the back then we all lose.  I firmly believe we need more rabble-rousers like AmericaBlog to really wind people up and get them involved.

The DOMA brief pulled me back in.  John's reaction to the DOMA brief and subsequent posts have KEPT me in.  I'm not saying he's a saint but I don't understand why people hate him so much on this site.

I read the linked story about putting the T in LGBT and I think he made wonderful points.  When we think of the "gay community," a LOT leave out Trans-folks.  A LOT ignore their needs.  A LOT are still uncomfortable with including them because A LOT still think it hurts our odds. Is it right?  Nope, not one bit.  Is that how a lot of people really feel?  You bet your ass.

He's encouraging discussion, asking valid questions and I think too much is being read into a 2 year old post.  


[ Parent ]
he seems that way
but in reality he was not doing so.

Look through those comments and find the one's marked dyssonance.

Please.

I wrote over 200 posts there.

And I was a lot more pleasant then.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
"Too much being read into a 2 year old post"
Uh, hey, some of us were there when Aravosis publicly made the case that we don't belong in his cisgender gay-rights movement.

It's not ancient history for us. It's the way Aravosis treats trans people. We've borne the scars; we're the ones who had our comments deleted or edited, earned our bans from his site.

And you wonder why we hate the guy?

Where the hell were you two years ago? Cheering him on as he proclaimed, not only within the queer community, but to Salon's readership, that trans people are an unwanted and unwelcome burden to the cis gays?

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
100% Agree.
We need more John Aravosis's, not less.

[ Parent ]
There is no place, NONE,
for misogyny in the gay rights movement, IMHO.  Avriosis lost all credibility last year.

[ Parent ]
We need less of John Aravosis
He's the Perez Hilton of political blogging.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Well...
When you are a trans gay man, then he is, indeed, worthless, and there is, indeed, merit to that.

OR do you deny such still?

And when you are trying to remind people that John's ability to be an attack dog is, in part, due to the efforts of trans people, well...

You still want to say that?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
without gay rights, there are no trans rights
i believe you've said so yourself and if you haven't, you should have.  i think that's been the point of this thread.    

if you claim that he is worthless when he has brought to light so many important political issues and fomented the rage that has prompted responses from our leaders, then you are basically saying that gay issues don't matter to people.  now maybe trans issues don't matter to him--whether that is true or not was the original purpose of this thread before it was completely hijacked--but to discount his efforts just because they are gay-focused is TOTALLY hypocritical, if you truly believe that our causes are one in the same.    

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
No, you're wrong
"without gay rights, there are no trans rights"

There can and are trans rights where gay rights don't exist.

For example, in a number of places, a post-transition straight trans person can get married.

Also, you have causality reversed. Without trans people, there would have been no gay rights movement. Learn your history.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Yeah, straight out of the Republican playbook
And just think of all that those Republicans did for the working-class "Middle Americans" that supported them. Oh, wait...

[ Parent ]
the "attack dog" has gone rabid
He told trans people to get the fuck out of "his" movement (you know, the one started 40 years ago by people such as Sylvia Rivera), so I can't see why you're mystified that trans people consider him toxic. He is toxic, to us, and if you don't see that, then you're not a trans ally.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
I'm just surprised that
anyone take Avriosis seriously after all the insane (and deeply misogynistic) crap he threw at Hillary Clinton last year.

The only way to deal with a mean, nasty nut like Avriosis, IMHO, is to ignore him.


Yes, that too.
I just couldn't visit AmericaBlog during the primaries because of that. The sexism was WAY over the top.

Want to save marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how! ;-)

[ Parent ]
Say it isn't so!
You mean, a privileged gay man who is sexist and transphobic? **GASP** Tell me it's not true!! **faints onto couch**

Seriously, the misogynist, transphobic, Obamabot garbage Aravosis and those like him have spewed in the past makes me SO grateful for the true progressives here at the Blend. Y'all have NO idea how much I value this place and this community.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
If I didn't know better
I'd swear you were being a bit sarcastic there, dear! ;)


[ Parent ]
Same here
I was not at all a fan of Hillary, but Aravosis' unrelenting attacks on her were so blatantly, over-the-top sexist, I stopped reading his blog.

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
I was rather anti-Hillary
then came around to respect her very much- in part because of what I was reading on Americablog... guessing that wasn't the intent!

[ Parent ]
LOL, the general idiot sexism
that her campaign was subjected to definitely won her some sympathy from me. I wasn't gung-ho on her or Obama (until the general, then I became an Obama fan...)

[ Parent ]
In fact, my boneheaded ex-friend...
...used to bloviate on his favorite subject, that we gays need a 'strong leader' who will keep the sissies and cross-dressers (and I assume butch lesbians?) in line, so we can finally gain acceptance for the real gays and lesbians (he of course would not include transgenders).

I  have heard that suggestion again recently, on forums. It's alarming.


Yesterday's thinking.
So, if we "clean up" our community enough and make it "socially acceptable" enough we'll win the approval of whom exactly? What bothers me about this line of thinking is that it (hopefully unintentionally) latches onto the heterosexist assumption that sex type and gender roles are fixed and rigid, and that anyone transgressing needs to be put back in line. I think if we take a serious look at the gay community in all its diversity, and hell, the human animal itself, gender behaviors vary. Any idea that there's a staunch dichotomy just plays into the narrow regressive thinking of the old gaurd. This issue does in fact underscore how bias anyone can be about issues that are in fact in line with their own. Its an oversight that I hope the gent Aravosis we're speaking on can overcome.

"So. What have we learned? We have learned the first lesson. They will always hate us... We must give the ordinary humans respect, compliance, and understanding. And we must never mistake that for trust." - Emma Frost, Astonishing X-Men, 1



[ Parent ]
How are the Log Cabin Republicans
treating your (ex)friend?

[ Parent ]
Oops
hit post too soon -- yeah, he had some definite fascsist tendencies. When he was talking about the community needing a 'strong leader' to keep the 'swishy ones' and the 'trannies' in check, I suggested Hitler. He did not think that was funny.

But it was a dumb suggestion, he's dead.


[ Parent ]
Hilter did keep the trannis in line
if we could just moderate him on the gays!

(I'm totally kidding, hitler jokes are not funny!)


[ Parent ]
Hilter did keep the trannis in line
if we could just moderate him on the gays!

(I'm totally kidding, hitler jokes are not funny!)


[ Parent ]
amen

Its all one cause , and Aravosis gives his "gay" community a bad name. I will never forgive him EVER for those two blog posts..you sited Autumn - he owes the T in the lgbT an apology and now with this NYT article hits a new level of duplicity..go to hell john. opps did i just say that out loud. And a big thank you to all the gays and lesbians without gender dissonance for seeing yes we are one community we are all gender transgressors at the very least - thank you tikihead and my blogger buddy Christopher di Spirito. You both have more clarity than Aravosis will have ever. He is interested in power and power along..i do not like to even hit that blog. Its a toxic place. TOXIC - in the business of self perpetuation and not much more. Alex Blaze also wrote a very interesting post on Bilerico called america blog interupted...and its a very good read.  

Aravosis is the perfect example
Of why you shouldn't expect people who have been historically oppressed to identify with other oppressed groups. After Prop 8 passed, I heard a number of people asking how straight African Americans could support a discriminatory policy after their own long struggle with discrimination, but to me that line of thinking was all wrong.

One is not suddenly dignified or ennobled just because they have had a set of their rights denied either in the past or present. People generally care about issues that affect them, and having felt the sting of discrimination doesn't suddenly make them care about problems they do not see as their own.


in some manner you can see how the oppressed
might view gains as a zero-sum game. Logically it makes no sense, but if you're struggling it might be one's instinct to deny others a seat at a table.

[ Parent ]
He'll say he's for our rights...but only when it's convenient for him
Aravosis and his like never seem to have a problem "sticking up for" trans people (read: appropriating our experiences) when it serves to strengthen their talking points, but as soon as doing so no longer helps them, suddenly trans people don't matter anymore. Pretty par for the course. It's just that this time it's harder to stomach when he's doing it to protest the Obama administration doing the exact same thing to his gay community.

I had no idea lesbians didn't consider themselves part of the "gay community."
"...and used the term gay community in the piece in a specific attempt to use a term that intentionally excluded lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people."

That statement makes no sense to me.  Every lesbian I know considers herself part of the "gay community."

Most transgender people I know tell me they were never gay, just "born in the wrong body," so by their own definition I guess they're not part of the "gay community."



[ Parent ]
Unless
they (that is, "we") happen to be both trans AND gay.

[ Parent ]
LIKE ME!
Proud to be both trans AND lesbian!

Listen to "TransTalk" every Thursday at 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org

[ Parent ]
Hell yes!
Out, trans and lesbian! And PROUD!

[ Parent ]
Um, Ninong
I think Autumn's point was that ARAVOSIS was attempting to use the term "gay community" in such a way so as to exclude the L, B, and T. Given his past history of blatant misogyny and his disrespect for queers who AREN'T privileged, white, cisgendered, male, Stepford gays, I can't imagine that Autumn was too far off the mark in her assessment.

Autumn herself has never said that "gay community" only includes men like Aravosis. To the contrary, she - and pretty much everyone in the Blender community, readers and Baristas alike - go to great lengths to be inclusive of all those who don't fit Aravosis' idea of what the "gay community" should be.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
"Stepford gays"
Do you think referring to us as Stepford Gays is being inclusive?

[ Parent ]
Yes, John Aravosis can't say...
He's for all of our community when it's convenient for him, then throw trans people under the bus. While he's right about President Obama needing to act on all of our civil rights, he doesn't exactly have clean hands either.

Want to save marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how! ;-)

I had no idea lesbians didn't consider themselves part of the "gay community."
 
"...and used the term gay community in the piece in a specific attempt to use a term that intentionally excluded lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people."

That statement makes no sense to me.  Every lesbian I know considers herself part of the "gay community."

Most transgender people I know tell me they were never gay, just "born in the wrong body," so by their own definition I guess they're not part of the "gay community."


Well, duh!
Most transgender people I know tell me they were never gay, just "born in the wrong body," so by their own definition I guess they're not part of the "gay community."

They're different cases. Gay/lesbian is a sexual orientation. However, being transgender isn't that. It's about the sex/gender one identifies as. There are transgender people attracted to the same sex and the opposite sex.

But just because transgender people aren't all gay doesn't mean we should toos them aside. They've fought alongside us for "LGB" rights. Why should we forget about them now?

Want to save marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how! ;-)


[ Parent ]
Exactly!
Being trans may not be a sexual orientation per se, but there's a lot of overlap on the issues we face. Besides that, it's not as if there aren't trans people who are also queer, either.

[ Parent ]
the word "gay" does exclude
I already wrote about this on a much earlier thread by Waymon about why the word "homosexual" pisses GLBT folks off so much...but I agree that the term "gay" excludes lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender folks who do not identify as gay (of course there are transgender people who also identify as gay men). "Gay" is a term for men who have sex with men. I also think it's the least "offensive" word for those who want to claim a space in mainstream America...remember how furious Lynne Cheney was when John Edwards called her daughter a lesbian? Well, guess what? Mary Cheney IS a lesbian. She is not a gay man. And I am bi, which is definitely not included in "gay".

That's why I like the word queer...it embraces ALL expressions of sexual identity and gender identity.

Plus, who cares whether trans folks identify as gay or not? Many of our issues are one and the same, and there's no reason whatsoever to leave anyone out of the queer movement.  


[ Parent ]
I guess I learned something new today.
I had no idea lesbians were NOT part of the "gay community."  The statement that I disagreed with was the statement by the author that the phrase "gay community" excludes lesbians.

I said I could understand how transgendered people might be excluded because they all tell me that they're not "gay," just born into the wrong body.

However, every lesbian I have ever met considers herself part of the "gay community."  The author of the article we are commenting on made the claim that lesbians are NOT part of the "gay community."

Apparently most of you agree that the phrase "gay community" EXCLUDES lesbians.  That's new to me.  I really didn't know that.


[ Parent ]
I think it's ambiguous
and frequently used both ways.

[ Parent ]
if gay specifies men only
then why in your post do you use the terms "gay men" and "gay man"?  why do you feel the need to add men or man after gay if you claim it is a gender specific term.

Lesbians are gay women.  I know it isn't currently politically correct as many lesbians prefer to segregate themselves from gay men because they feel they have a different agenda and different issues.  At least that is how one lesbian explained it to me.  According to her, they wanted an exclusive term and dropped the use of gay so as not to be included with gay men, whom they thought were only interested in hedonistic sexual activities and not the "familiy issues" that lesbians were concerned about.

And, pardon me, but...  A gay man is still a gay man whether he has sex with men or not.  You are making the same mistake that the righties make and defining people by sexual activity.  You have bought into their theory that a homosexual man who is celebate is no longer "gay".  So, your theory that gay is a term for men who have sex with men is incorrect.  Gay is a term for men or women who are sexually attracted to the same-sex exclusively.


[ Parent ]
Who, me?
timNC,

Who are you talking to?  I didn't use the term "gay men" and "gay man" in my posts, yet you replied to MY post.  What's up?

All I'm saying is that Autumn Sandeen made the claim in her article that lesbians are not part of the "gay community" and I didn't know that.  I had no idea that lesbians were NOT part of the gay community.

She said that the term "gay community" excludes lesbians.  I had no idea.  I always thought lesbians were part of the "gay community."  That was news to me.  I had no idea they were so upset that anyone would dare include them in the term "gay community."

I thing the claim that lesbians are NOT part of the "gay community" is ridiculous!


[ Parent ]
my reply
was to elizabethws, just like your reply was.  Check the post again.  Mine is NOT indented under yours, mine is an additional reply at the same level as yours

[ Parent ]
I understand that "gay community" can be used in a way that many see as...

...inclusively include the broader lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community.

As others have pointed out in this blog thread, Aravosis has written many posts that many LGBT and progressive people find mysoginistic. I wrote a in this diary that Aravosis definitely does not include transgender people when he uses the phrase gay community, and many lesbian and bisexual women don't believe that when Aravosis says gay community, he means to include them.

My definite point was that when Aravois uses the phrase "gay community," he uses the phrase in a way to exclude certain people from what I would call the LGBT community; Aravosis doesn't use that phrase as an inclusive manner. At the very least, his use of the term gay community is specifically meant to exclude trans people.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
It's all a good blog, Autumn.....
But here is the real 'capper' re how he feels.
And they seem intent on finding every non-top-of-the-agenda item they can to "fix" in order to boost their pro-gay bona fides.

  Yep, specifically thrown to the bottom of the pile again.

I think, so that we don't all just look a bit silly argueing just whose full Civil Rights are 'more important,'  ....  we should go back to that discussion we had a while ago re terminology.

Let's just take up 'Queer' again, as it is all encompassing. It still has a little negativity attached, but we could turn that around by using it and embracing it more, and then always confirming in legislation, etc. that 'everyone' is included.

(PS At end. that was a horrible DOMA brief I think.)

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


Yes, that's also why...
I use "queer". I don't see why we shouldn't reclaim it and detach the stigma.

Want to save marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how! ;-)

[ Parent ]
i think you are a bit off on this comment
John was comparing all the smaller items Obama has been trying to placate LGBTs with like the FEW benefits for some federal employees to the top-of-the agenda items of DOMA, DADT, ENDA (trans inclusive).  He was not throwing trans issues in general to the bottom.  But, was saying that FEDERAL TRANS EMPLOYEES only was a non top of the agenda item JUST LIKE a few benefits for some LGB federal employees are a non top pfthe agenda item.

[ Parent ]
And my point was...

...Aravosis, in my opinion, shouldn't be using trans federal workers as a tool to make a point about the President apoligizing for the anti-LGBT DADT brief when he's talked about trans people not rightly belonging in the gay community (as a LG or LGB community -- a community he sees as being rightly grouped with T's) -- or gender identity not beloging in the civil rights legislation that includes sexual orientation.

He wants the President to apologize; I want Aravosis to apologize. I was drawing a parity in our positions on community-related appologies.

Aravosis had his blog to make his point; I had Pam's House Blend to make my point. I see no issue with both of us making our points within our own forums -- this is what free speech is about.

But given free speech, neither of us have a right to consequence-free free speech. He made his point citing DADT and other LGBT issues citing a NYT article on trans people, and I took issue with him being what I consider a hypocrite on trans issues. That was a consequence of him citing an article regarding federal trans workers to make points on LGBT issues.

Not much of a consequence, is it? :P And others in this thread taking me to task on my take is my consequence for writing my opinion on Aravosis' article

Still, both of us got to say our peace, and that's one of the things I consider pretty wonderful about living in America.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
What an ass
Does he seriously not see the resemblance to the anti-gay bigots?

"I'm not an idiot and bigot for wanting to dump __ on their ass with no rights, its just that everyone else secretly agrees their weirdos but is to scared of being called a bigot to admit they want them gone"

^Sounds exactly like the 'silent majority' the religious right is always claiming exists and would show themself if they weren't scared of being labelled bigots, doesnt it? The only difference is this bigot is talking about a 'silent majority' opposed to T's and not the 'silent majority' opposed to all LBGT's he stole his argument from.  


That's horrid...
I knew there was some problem between Aravosis and the trans members of our community, but I never had the chance to go back and find out what the source of the problem was or how big it was.  I'll be skipping linking to his blog from now on.  

Of course, I'm a butch dyke who wears men's clothes, so I don't know if that'll hurt him much.  (Maybe that's why my comment on his blog about unleashing the gender transgressors to kick some *ss disappeared, along with every comment after that.  I figured it might be a technical problem, so I stopped trying after about 3.)


[ Parent ]
Well, if we ever meet...

...Hope you don't mind getting a big, sloppy hug from a very "girly" trans woman. :)

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
A Question...
Maybe it's just me, but the gay people who "reared" me as a baby dyke taught me that the trans community and other "gender transgressors" really went to bat for our rights in the 60's and 70's.  Didn't people like Aravosis get the memo?  Or are they just ungrateful *ssholes?

You're right: ungrateful assholes
Read Aravosis's piece at Salon -- he thinks trans people were forced into the movement from outside and above, and real gay people don't want those icky trans people around.

He clearly didn't get the memo. He was too busy being a closeted conservative Republican operative while trans people were working on, and dying for, queer rights.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
No, Bible, please!
Autumn, do we need to quote Matthew to make a point? Is that the best argument against Aravosis?  It might be if he were a Bible thumper, but honestly, you do a fine job just quoting him against himself, showing his inconsistencies and lack of insight.  let's leave the Bible out of this.  It's used way too much in contemporary political discourse and it's gotten tiresome.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

*Hivemind*


Are you talking about what it is you know, or just repeating what it was you heard?

Grace Slick

www.anonymous-t-girl.blogspot.com


[ Parent ]
Hivemind, indeed
Too many busy bees quoting the Bible to sting this or that.
Who cares what the Bible says in any secular discussion?  Makes as much sense as to quote Beowulf.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Has anyone HERE ever tried to talk to him about this issue?
I would be curious to know if any of the blenders here have ever tried to speak (or correspond) with him about this issue?

There is always talk about reaching out and trying to talk and familiarize others to our cause (ie educate the black church community) and I would be interested in knowing if anyone here has tried this with him.

Might it not be better to try to have a conversation with him, than to demonize him?  Currently he is one of the few major blog voices to be speaking out about the current crop of issues before us.

He may be wrong (which I believe he is) on the issue of transgendered individuals, but could it be that he is just as uninformed about that segment of our community as straights are to the gay community as a whole?  Not everyone has the knowledge about the transgendered community that this blog gives us, but shouldn't we then try to educate him and make him aware of the issues he is wrong about?  

He should be called out for his perceived bigotry, but if we wish to change his mind, isn't it best to utilize the same tactics we recommend for building consensus in the heterosexual community?

Why not call him out on this issue on his very own blog.  Because when reading the story, I see that in his comment section there are 27 comments, and not one person decide to tell him how they feel about this issue.  Why not stand up and say something on his site, where he will almost certainly respond?

Conversations do not happen when we talk ABOUT others, they happen when we talk WITH them.

   

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


Emphasis on the word talk
not point fingers, per se, scream, shout but...dialogue.

[ Parent ]
Not to mention one of the linked to articles is a call for dialouge.
The Should we kill ENDA if transgendered people aren't included? article is actually a call to have a discussion, to start the conversation.  Yes, John has some issues, YES he is sometimes inelegant in his writing, but I see more than just the slam to the transgendered portion of our community that the diarist does.  I see a call to have the discussion.  Isn't it better to TRY to have the conversation and be inelegant in your writing than not have the conversation at all?  Isn't this similar to the race conversation that we have had in the past about how and why the conversation on racism is so difficult to have?

It seems that if you try to have the conversation you get accused of being a bigot.  Well, the conversation will NEVER start if we all keep reading what we want to into every attempt at finding a consensus.

http://www.americablog.com/200...

Some in the gay community, including the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, say that if transgender is not included in ENDA, the legislation should be killed. Others say that we should take half a loaf, pass ENDA without gender identity, and continue to fight for transgender rights in the future - this is what happened in New York where the lead gay group accepted ENDA-like legislation that did not include gender identity.

I'm not going to weigh in, yet, because I'm curious what you all think and don't wish to prejudice the discussion. I will, however, give you a bit more background on the various points of view.

Kill ENDA if gender identity is not included
The main argument here is that we shouldn't leave a portion of our community behind. We'd never pass ENDA if it only included lesbians but left behind gay men, so why pass it if it doesn't include transgendered people? The underlying assumption here is that gender identity is the same thing as, or close enough to, sexual orientation as to make gays, lesbians, and transgendered people all one family.

Pass ENDA even if gender identity is not included
Depending who you speak to, there are various arguments here. The first is that it's better to take half a loaf than nothing. The second is that the gender identity issue is new to the game - gays and lesbians have been lobbying for decades to pass this legislation, gender identity advocates have not been lobbying, have not been a serious movement, nearly as long. Thus, their time will come, but it's not time yet. And a third argument is that gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation, so what is it doing in the bill at all.

This third point is perhaps the most crucial, the most controversial, and the least debated issue in this entire debate. While some, many, consider the gender identity community part of the gay community, others ask when this addition to the family occured. Some of the opposition to the inclusion of transgendered people is based on prejudice, a visceral dislike of "drag queens" and the like. And I suspect some of the support for the inclusion of transgendered people is based on the opposite gut instinct, a visceral like of and sympatico for transgendered people, rather than a rational argument as to why gay men are as similar to transgendered people as they are to lesbians. But some of the opposition is based on a legitimate disagreement as to whether believing you are a man trapped in a woman's body is the same thing as, or similar enough thing to, being a man who likes other men or a woman who likes other women.

I've not seen a lot of public debate in the gay community about the transgender issue being akin to sexual orientation, other than from those who argue that of course gender identity should be included in the larger gay community and of course we should kill ENDA if they're not included. I also suspect that the lack of a debate is not a true indication that a debate does not exist. So, let's have one.

Except we can't have one, because any time someone attempts it, no one can hear what they say over the cries of bigotry.  In having this type of conversation, or trying to, one will make messy statements that may seem bigoted, yet may only come from a place of non-understanding, of not having been able to have the conversation in the first place because one doesn't know how to pose the question in terms that the other does not find offensive.  

My teachers, while I was growing up, always told me that the only stupid question was the one not asked.  So I ask:

HOW ARE WE TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION IF NO ONE WILL ASK THE QUESTIONS, EVEN IF THEY DO SO IN A WAY THAT MIGHT SOUND OFFENSIVE?

We cannot expect to win people over if we never talk about the problems.  No relationship was ever healed while each side demonized the other.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
Yes
It seems that if you try to have the conversation you get accused of being a bigot.
Because those who want to 'have that conversation' conveniently refuse to accept the notion of 'having a conversation' about anything other than 'gay marriage NOW' being acceptable.

We are negotiable, but nothing non-trans is.

THAT'S why even 'having the discussion' is offensive.  The first time gays and lesbians 'had the discussion' about trans-inclusion was in the 1970s - and within five years we were, politically, on the train to Siberia.

You want to 'have the conversation'?

Be prepared for the response from those who the conversation is about - and don't complain about it or its tone or its volume when it comes.

>^..^<


[ Parent ]
so a failure 30 years ago is the end of it?
Wow.  We wouldn't have any rights at all if everyone took that attitude.

And if it's a discussion on the community as a whole, that makes non transgendered individuals part of "who the conversation is about".

And I simply don't understand why I shouldn't be able to complain if the "tone" of any future discussions isn't civil.  I'm civil to those I have discussions with, simply because I know that nothing will ever be learned or taught if there is no civility in the conversation.

How do you expect the rift to be repaired if you don't hold BOTH sides of the conversation accountable?  Things will stay exactly where they are and never improve for either segment if we continue to hold onto attitudes like that.

It has been my conversations with my friend Adrianne that have enlightened me to the transgendered issues, and that was because she allowed me to ask the questions that sounded moronic and offensive, because she understood we don't always share the same language, and that because of how confusing the issue had been for her, she understood how confusing it could be for someone like me, who did not come from that same space as she did.

Public condemnation doesn't change peoples minds, it only changes what they say out loud.  They still vote the same way, they still think the same way.  I thought the goal, other than legal equality, was to change the hearts of those who did not understand or agree with us.  Isn't that what this site has been calling for in other areas where we as a WHOLE community are trying to change the public perception?

Flies Honey Vinegar.  I think you understand.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
Quit dodging the issue
so a failure 30 years ago is the end of it?  
Wow.  We wouldn't have any rights at all if everyone took that attitude.
Sounds a lot like the Bush junta criminals saying that investigating what they did while they were in charge is unproductive.

Status quo = they get away with murder.

Status quo = the gay elites get away with manufacturing a fake reality in which anyone who came in to the gay community/politics after 1975 gets taught that trans concerns are either not properly part of 'the agenda' at all or are always too much too soon....

and they tell two lovers...

and they tell two lovers...

and they tell two lovers...............

>^..^<


[ Parent ]
What issue am I dodging?
It seems to be you that is dodging an issue.  I ask why can't we have the conversation and you say last time we did that it didn't work, and then you say the whole conversation is offensive.

How the heck do you, or anyone else, think the issue is going to change if it is so offensive to even broach?

I also think it disengenious to claim this is an issue brought about by the gay "Elites".  You don't seriously believe that there are NO average Joe and Jane homosexual people who have these same questions and thoughts?

And it certainly isn't contained to JUST the male homosexual population.  I do recall all the furor in San Francisco when the local lesbian womyns club started banning trans women from their group because they were not natural born women.

How is everything going to get better if it offends you to just have a conversation?  Isn't it the same thing that we tell the gay and lesbians on this blog, "People's perceptions change when they know a gay person" well, the same should be said about transgendered people.

I had no clue about the issue of transgenders before I met my friend Adrianne, who bothered to actually talk to me and answer questions that you find so offensive.  And those conversations changed me, they informed me, and I started taking on her cause, same as my cause, having understood that they are one and the same.  That is what talking about the issue does.  Calling people names or getting worked up in such a way that the conversation cannot move forward, and so that new potential allies are missed because the questions are too offensive for you, does no one any good.

You cannot build a stronger coalition if you are not willing to talk.


The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
You cannot talk...
...if you are banned from the conversation.

I feel kind of sorry for your friend Adrianne, though.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Were it only something that happened 30 years ago
The thing is, trans people are still being marginalized by many subcommunities in the larger queer community.

[ Parent ]
We are (sorta) having a conversation in the "webosphere."

This is the way bloggers talk to each other. He made all of his comments in the blogosphere, and I'm responding in the blogosphere.

Seriously, I actually do actually know people who have tried to engage Aravosis in exactly the conversations you're talking about, and they got no where. From what others tell me, he is a very opinionated person -- I can't tell you that from personally trying to engage him.

But, my job isn't, by definition of being a blogger, to engage him personally. If "we" are engaging each other (and by "we," it's probably just me engaging him), then it's in the blogosphere that he's made all of his comments.

Frankly, that is a free speech consequence for him expressing his opinions on trans people in the blogosphere -- having other bloggers respond in the blogs they write at.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
That's not a call for dialogue...
...because Aravosis deleted comments from people who disagreed with him, and banned them from the "dialogue."

You seem to think that the people who are not acting in good faith are Aravosis' trans critics (and their cis friends) -- nothing could be further from the truth.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Go ahead, call him out
on his blog for his consistent mistreatment of anyone in our leadership who is not a gay man. (Not that he refrains from nasty, personal attacks on gay men who, in his sole judgment, deserve it...)

Then you'll be banned from commenting, after your comments are deleted, just like I was.

I'm not the hollering type, as you know. But it's impossible to converse with someone who cuts the mike, as O'Reilly demonstrates so well on HIS stage.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Exactly!
I was banned and I wasn't even arguing.  I simply asked for a proper correction.   On his blog, John posted this:

It's over, folks. A lot of us have been saying that if the Human Rights Campaign, the largest gay civil rights group in Washington, were to pull its attendance from next week's DNC $1,000 a person gay fundraiser, then the fundraiser would effectively be dead. Well, HRC just pulled out as a result of the White House's homophobic DOMA brief in which they equated gay marriage to incest.
 

You can see where Huffington Post linked to the story with the above here... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

Shortly after Huffpo posted the link, Aravosis changed his post.  So when you click to go to AmericaBlog this is what you read:

It's over, folks. A lot of us have been saying that if Marty Rouse, the Human Rights Campaign's National Field Director, were to pull his attendance from next week's DNC $1,000 a person gay fundraiser, then the fundraiser would effectively be dead. Well, HRC official Marty Rouse just pulled out as a result of the White House's homophobic DOMA brief in which they equated gay marriage to incest.

All I wanted was a proper correction considering it was being linked from several sites.  I feel that facts matter.  I asked in the comments if he could please make a reference that the post had been updated, and I got banned lol.  



[ Parent ]
To most people, they do
I feel that facts matter
To most people, they do - but the Aravosisistic wing of the LGB(T) movement (and in this wing I include both the individuals of the type as well as the organizational ones, such as HRC) long has been able to get by via making up their own facts, ignoring the facts that disprove their fake facts, and creating a self-perpetuating cottage industry that is able to project the ultimate fake fact to the non-LGB(T) world: that it speaks for all LGB(T) people.

>^..^<

[ Parent ]
I totally agree with you in theory.
...but in practice, Aravosis has been known to  delete comments by people that disagree with him, and resist any advances towards patient dialogue;  Given that he tends to view disagreement with his particular perspective as evidence of bad faith or malintent, nothing suggests that he'll listen to us.

[ Parent ]
So that's where my comments went...
Strange thing is the first comment that disappeared (after showing up in the comments list) wasn't anti-Aravosis, it was just pro-gender transgressors.  Go figure.

[ Parent ]
now you're being way too pragmatic
could it be that he is just as uninformed about that segment of our community as straights are to the gay community as a whole?

communication isn't the order of the day with certain blenders, who come here just to ruin an otherwise fine topic with their shrill, misdirected vitriol.  this excellent site doesn't deserve it, and aravosis doesn't deserve it either.  

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
Here is main point for Aravosis and all other cisgendered, transbigoted privileged assholes
The fight for GLB rights and the fight for Transgender rights are the same fight, because, at the most basic, they are rooted in the fight for people other than cisgendered, straight (white, wealthy) men to have a sexuality and a gender identity and not be punished or shamed for it.

Not to mention it's just the right goddam thing to do.

Go forth and converse.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
Cisgendered?
Let me just say that I love a good debate and from a historical perspective I understand where some of the riffs have developed over the last 80 plus years in the LGBT movement. I have read about the Daughters of Bilitis, the Mattachine Society and some of the very first groups ever organized in the US. There is a great book by Eric Marcus callled "Making History, The Struggle for Gay and Lesbian Equal Rights 1945-1990" Yeah, I know even the title says a lot, it is an older book but a great reference about our collective history.

There has always been a certain amount of animosity between the L's the G's the B's and the T's. We all know this. When I start to tune out of a debate is when someone describes a whole group of our community as "cisgendered, transbigoted, privileged assholes". Cisgendered is not even a word that gay men identify with but one created by people to single them out in a way that I personally find offensive and derogatory especially when used in this context. Not all white gay men are privileged, nor are they transphobic, lumping them in this category serves no purpose to a greater dialogue.

Name calling for the sake of name calling is just that. Where would any L, G, B or T be without all of our collected efforts? I have seen many comments on here about gay white men that really cross the line with the vitriol behind them.

If we are truly all in the same fight then singling out one specific group like this does not do our movement any good at all but only serves to further divide our cause.  


[ Parent ]
um, as a note
Cisgender is, simply, people who are not transgender.

A non transperson is not "straight". They are cis.

So if you find it offensive to be called "not trans", Can we simply call you trans instead?

I ask because every time I note that under some constructions, transgender includes all the GLBT populations, I get a lot of flak for it and so I do not reappropriate other's identities for them.

In short, you don't identify with cis-, its simply what you are (not who you are).

IT's not singling you out, either. All it means, its only purpose and value, is to denote someone who is not trans.

Just like straight is not gay.

And when people speak about gay men who happen to be white, they do so because that group of people is typically more privileged. They are NOT as privileged as a straight man, but they are absolutely more privileged than a transwoman of color.

Withn my own heritage, I've been subject to attack because of my privilege, and the fact that I am able to "pass for white".  I can.  ANd I do.  And I know that I do have that privilege (hell, I was once capable of using all the privilege of a white, straight man.  But I knew I had that privilege, because I wasn't.).

ANd historically, it has been those relatively few white, gay men that have made the deals and undercut our rights, and they do so using the same transphobic arguments that John Avarosis uses, whcih are little more than minor variations on the same things said about white gay men.

I realize this doesn't make how you feel any less hurt for being grouped in a category that you don't feel you belong in.

But it one based predominantly on history, in response to current words and actions.

Just as our mutual fight for rights goes on, so does the fight for solidarity.

Rather than letting the hurt bother you, why not apologize for possibly having misspoke, and ask what you can do to help more?


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I would add for clarification
That it is a relatively new (approximately 15 years or so-if that can be considered relatively new) phrase in the sexuality lexicon, so one should be forgiven if they do not know what it means and becomes confused.  

From my reading on the post by travelingman.rick it was more in reference to the "trans bigoted, white privileged assholes" part of the post, with the added confusion on the word cisgendered.  And he would be correct that the automatic assumption and classification of individuals via their typed words as those things does a huge disservice to all involved.  Most importantly, how can one tell when addressing someone on line whether they are WHITE Privileged? You certainly can't tell by the words they use.  And, if someone is less informed on the issue, why chastise them and call them names for their mistakes, pressing them to apologize because they didn't KNOW the words you prefer to hear.  Why not politely explain what it is that is wrong with the phrase or word, and then answer the basic question put forth?  Educating someone in a positive manner is much more effective then making them defensive and thus ruining a perfectly good teaching moment.  If we can't teach those who show a willingness to question and learn, simply because they are ignorant of a situation that is different than theirs, then we have no hope for those who oppose us without question.  Sometimes offense is seen where none was intended.  Gently pointing that out is more effective then the club them method.  When people fear getting slammed for not knowing the "correct" way to ask or phrase a question, they are less likely to look for the answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

This link gives the short history of the word, which I believe was covered a while back by a very informative diary here on PHB.  I do not recall if it was authored by Autumn or someone else here.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
um...
I still find it offensive to be described as such. It is no different that for a trans person to say do not refer to me as pre-op or do not define me as the gender I am from. If I were to do it anyway.... that is not acceptable no more than to lump all white gay men into this category. Just admit that you have issues with gwm and leave it at that, but to lump everyone into one category is offensive to me. To call me CIS is offensive when it is a made up name and not an identity that I choose it is offensive. This is done because it is easy for you and rather than to have a dialogue you choose to dump us all into one category as the enemy and that is what I find offensive. Don't put words into my mouth and do not fucking pretend that you are any more righteous than me, because when you use this language it only serves to distance us from each other and offends me. It is no different than if I started calling you a tranny... I would think that would be offensive.

What I would say to you is why don't you apologize for lumping all gay white men into a category that is incorrect? Obviously for you it is acceptable to just call all gay white men bigots and Cis and whatever name you want to call them. That is offensive to me. Why don't you apologize to me? Oh wait I get it, I have no right to be offended by your bigotry. you are beyond reproach...It is the gwm like me who is the one stepping on your rights...we just need to slink of into the corner and keep our happy mouth shut.

Do you not see how offensive that is? How would you like it if you were so summarily dismissed?


[ Parent ]
Ok, first off
Cis is not an identity.

As I noted earlier, cis is simply an easier way of saying non-trans that is far more effective.

So your argument on the basis of that being such is failed, irrational, and illogical.

So you are aware, "gay" as pertaining to homosexuals is a made up word.  Indeed, gay itself is a made up word. So it fails there, as well.

As I said, would you prefer to be defined as trans?  You didn't answer that. THere is only one other option (intersex) thus far, so you could also choose that one.  I'm open to such.

But if you are not transgender, and you are not intersex, then, well, you are cissexual, and that carries the implication that your gender, in its identity and its expression, has remained constant and inflexible.

Tha is not a category for the enemy -- its merely one many fall into, much like Christian, or Black, or White, or Californian or American.

Do you consider an of those equally insulting?

See how your argument regarding its use fails?  Its made up, its emotional reaction to being "not trans".  You want to give it greater meaning and wider use than it has -- it has noting to do with being an enemy.

That said, it distances us from each other only as much as your being homosexual and my being heterosexual distances us.  Are you going to say that I don't benefit from Heterosexual privilege?  Cause I won't say that -- but I'm at least willing to know that I have it, instead of making up some damn fool excuse for pretending to be insulted by a term that's academically and socially sound just because you want to turn it into demonization in order to defend your view.

As a note, if you were to start calling me a tranny, you would, in fact, be furthering the very division you speak of -- not because you would be insulting me (I call myself a tranny all the time (even here) and am not insulted by it) but because you would be using the term that means the opposite of cis.

SO, again, I have to ask you:  Are you not cis?  If so, then are you inter- or trans-?  Pick one.  Your choice.

I did not lump all gay white men bigots.  I said they were privileged.  There is a significant difference. Perhaps you should look into that. Not did I call all gay white men cis (indeed, I know many trans white men, and work with one nearly daily).

I wont apologize to you because your attempt to demonize a term merely because you don't like it by adding in additional to it fails on multiple levels.  You are saying "I am a white person, don't call me white". Major error.

If you'd like to demonstrate my bigotry, please, go right ahead.  Otherwise, I will directly call that statement a lie, and label you a liar as a result.

I could do the same with me being beyond reproach -- I've never known anyone who would say that about me (especially given that I reproach myself fairly regularly). But Once is enough.

"gwm like you"? Given your reaction in this post, well, yeah. Only "stepping" isn't an effective descriptive.

Crapping is more accurate.

So, in answer to your last two questions, No, I do  not, for th reasons noted above, and why do you think you are getting treated this way?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Cis...a trans reference to gwm...
that is how I percieve it. Does that make it accurate? Maybe not but that is my perception. Perception and reality are two very different things. Based on the comments I have seen posted here I find this terminology offensive, period. If you have a problem with that I would think that you would make an effort to understand where that comes from rather that to berate me.

CIS is not a terminology that any gay man uses to self identify. It is something that has been made up to lump all GWM's into a category...and based on what I have seen here in the comments it is not a positive thing. I am sick and tired of being told that because of my white gay privileged here that somehow I am better off when I have faced the same demons you have. A bruise is a bruise, a blow is a blow, and whether we are g.l.b. or t they all hurt the same.


[ Parent ]
Not really...
its not a trans reference.  Its an academic one derived predominantly from women's studies.

Just saying.

And you continue to perceive it that way despite the consistent, multiple explanations of its meaning offered you.  Wouldn't that qualify as wilful ignorance?

I do understand where it comes from, as pointed out earlier.  An irrational sense of its meaning that bears no relationship to the reality of such.

You have had your choices, and you persist in not only making one, but in holding fast to something despite the evidence and information you now have to the contrary.

Its not intended, AGAIN to be an identity.  That's three times.  Since its not meant as an identity, why would any gay man use it to self identify?

knock knock  Anyone there?

It is not a negative thing, nor is it a positive thing.  Its a totally unrelated to positive or negative thing.

(wow -- three times and I'm still saying the same things in different ways).

You've faced down the same demons I have?  REALLY?

Cool -- then you know what it feels like to have gay men decide that your life isn't worth as much as theirs for the purpose of legislative strategy.

Wonderful.

Then you've been called faggot when you aren't gay.  You've been subjected to homelessness not because of your sexual orientation but because your money wasn't good enough when you stopped dressing like a man.

You've been told by a white gay doctor to go to a different clinic because he doesn't treat your kind here -- its too difficult.

You get to have your entirety of existence validated by a therapist who charges you to do so, just so you can get the appropriate drugs to be abe to express yourself as a human being properly.

That is Awesome.  Welcome to being trans.  At least you answered my question:  you are trans.

How goes your transition?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
One wonders why...
anyone would even bother to try to have a dialogue. Obviously you have all of the answers. It is not enough to say I find it offensive when...because you have excuses to continue in the establishment of using verbiage that I find offensive. It is ok if you deem it so...yeah that makes it okay and no manner in my protestations you continue to use it. I am the moron who does not get it, but it is still OK just because YOU think it is?

I am a gay man who happens to be white who was battered, beaten, abused sexually and who survived. In my opinion all gay men and lesbians are gender benders at some level, when I get pissed is when I am dumped into one category and everyone thinks it is ok to pretend that it is OK to have that opinion. Stop calling all gay men cis....it is offensive to gay men, I don't care how you define it.

Personally I was betrayed by a doctor and my sexuality was divulged to my company. I was later laid off by said company. Yeah that white privilege served me really well then...Just because one is white does not mean that they too have not had their fair share of problems in the real world. The sooner the t's stop pretending that they are somehow worse off and accept that we have all had problems the sooner we can get beyond all this.


[ Parent ]
Ok, that's it. Nice is over.
Its not offensive at all -- or at least no more than calling gay men "gay men" is offensive to them.

It may offend you because, in your own words,

In my opinion all gay men and lesbians are gender benders at some level

Which means that to you all gay men and lesbians are trans.  In which case the original comment could not possibly have been directed at you because you are not cis, you are trans, and therefore you wouldn't be offended by it.

So make up your mind.

It is not me that says so, either.  That's the meaning. YOU are the one attaching some sort of emotional significance to it and claiming offense. ANd you are doing so despite 3 explanations of what it means to you.

All of which were done before you attempt to appropriate trans lives.

I will make this really simple:  get over your wilful ignorance.  until you do, you will only ever run into the sort of frustration you are feeling.

why did you call yourself a moron?  I never did.  I save that for our mutual opponents (and I usually am far more creative).

You lied again about what I said, as well.  I never said all gay men are cis.

Head back to John's place.  You'll find that the requirements for knowledge about complex subjects and privilege are far lower than here, and be much happier.

I don't give a rat's ass what you've been through -- I know people who have it better and people who have it worse.  And I know that allof us have different amounts that we can take, so what I can deal with and what you can deal with are not likely to be the same.

But you said you've gone through what I have. I would never say such a thing.  I don't know you anymore than you know me, so I'm not about to leap to conclusions about my experience as a straight transwoman of multiple races in comparison to your experience as a gay man who is white.

I just dealt in my examples with ones pertaining to being trans. Would you like me to get into the racial stuff?  The religious stuff? The ways in which I had it better than you when I faked being a white straight man for a few decades?

Because I am aware of all those things.

You still aren't, and you are reacting poorly to having it pointed out to you.

You are right -- I do have all the answers when it comes to this subject.  It took me a long time to learn them, too, but I do not have all the answers to the lesbian experience, or the bisexual experience, or the gay man experience.

Which is why I take the time to learn, and listen, instead of scream offensive when someone decides to call me something I don't like.

I've read and thought about each of your posts.  You haven't given me the same courtesy.  

Normally I reserve this for me, a little sticky note on my screen, but now I'll give it to you:

Get over yourself

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I am not screaming anything
here. My only attempt is to exchange in a real dialogue here. When you dismiss me and tell me to run back to AmericaBlog that is not exactly attempting to exchange in a dialogue. I have just as much a right to be here as anybody else.

If you look at the context in each reference to CIS gay white males that has been made within this post it is almost exclusively written as a snide description and in a context that I think is meant in a derogatory way.

I don't give a whit what definition you or anyone else wants to call it. Why not just use gay men? I never said I have gone through exactly what you have, I merely pointed out that we have shared experiences in the real world that are similar. I would never expect that I have the exact same shared experiences as you. What I do have are experiences that have given me a real point of view when it comes to LGBT rights. It's nice to know you don't give a rats ass about that, it says a lot more about you than it does about me.

For the record, no I am not trans. I am just a guy who happens to be gay, white and obviously the enemy in here. What I find most offensive is the implication that because I am gay, and white is that somehow we are made out to be the enemy. Go back and look at each post that uses the words CIS, and white gay male, read them and then come back and tell me that I am making it up.

We are not the enemy here, when we are summarily dismissed and told to go elsewhere that sounds pretty unwelcome to me and I would hope that one would think twice before dismissing such a large segment of our community. I would never dismiss you and tell you to find another movement or to go somewhere else, yet you obviously take no issue with doing that yourself.

I am sick and tired of reading diatribes about the evil gay white man and how we are the problem. I am sick of the assumptions that all gay white men are better off than anyone else, that is a generalization and yes, I find that offensive because we all have a story to tell. From your response I can only arrive at the conclusion that you are not interested in that story but are only interested in being angry and holding me in disdain.

My desire is that rather than take that track would be for us to really exchange in a dialogue without telling the other that we have no place on any blog. We have all experienced discrimination on some level, is it not better to share our commonality rather than to just dismiss the other?


[ Parent ]
Ok, one more try

Now that you've had a break, let's go back for a second, ok?

I dismissed you earlier because you ignored what I was saying. Entirely. And yes, you can be here (right is pushing it, its private property and both of us are here at the whim of the site owner and moderators). I didn't say you couldn't be, despite your inference that I did in making that statement.

I explained, multiple times, that the meaning you were ascribing to the word was not accurate, and that as a result, your reasoning for taking offense was not accurate, and yet you chose to ignore that and continue to make that claim that it was offensive, ostensibly based on the same premise which was shown to be in error.

Contextually, there was nothing more snide and derogatory than saying that someone was black or hispanic, rich or poor, gay or straight.  Are you saying that in those same statements, gay was used derogatorily and with intent to be snide?  Because if you are not, then you are being intellectually dishonest and not interested in exchanging in real dialog but something else.

You prove my point that you are not reading my posts, but only skimming, because again you say "why not use gay men" when I have already explained, at least twice, that there are trans gay men -- the purpose of stating it that way is to create a distinction between you and the transfolk, since gay men who are trans do not generally act int he manner so described earlier; only gay men who are cis do.

You said:

I am sick and tired of being told that because of my white gay privileged here that somehow I am better off when I have faced the same demons you have.

I simply established that you haven't, despite your claims. And, as a result I have had experiences that give me a real point of view when it comes to LGBT rights. Precisely equal in terms of reality to you.

I'm honest.  Its a failing this days, I realize, but yeah -- it does say a lot about me - and as I noted, you don't particularly care about mine, either.

ANd I have read each of them  Again.  You are making this up. See my point earlier -- in order for that to hold water, given what I've already established previously, you would have to say the same thing about gay.  Or white.  Or men.

Enemy?  No.  But then I've learned that Dobson isn't an enemy either - and that there is some sense of prejudice and othering there when we call them such.  He is an opponent, and when it comes to what is overwhelmingly white, wealthy, gay men who are not trans and their approach to trans issues historically (and even today), they they are also opponents.

Sorry.  Its the truth.  Don't bitch at me if it stings, go bitch at them for doing it.  Start with the guy who started the HRC, and work your way to the one that stands in front of it right now.

So your obviously the enemy tack is wholly fallacious, and since its the exact sort of commentary that we've come to loathe and despise from one of those self same people (john), well, of course I'm going to tell you to head over there.

I've been banned.  ANd I was far nicer back then.

WHat assumptions?  As a matter of course, you are.  You are white, so you have white privilege.  You are a man, so you have male privilege. You are non-trans, so you have non-trans (cis) privilege. Those aren't assumptions.  Those are simple, basic realties -- especially to a transwoman of color.

Privilege doesn't make you evil.  I have female privilege (a concept that pisses people off). I have "passing privilege".  But neither of them come close in overall degree within society at large to the privilege you have.

Sorry.

And Of Course its a generalization!  So is your insistence that we are saying "all gay white men are better off than anyone else". Its a generalization, too.  Hello?  Hypocrisy much?

To share our commonality would be wonderful -- if we did indeed share it -- perhaps you are forgetting the context of this entire thread?  John Avarosis is being a fucking prick and transfolk are sick of it.

The man has called for us to be sacrificed in order to gain rights for the non trans portion of the population. We really don't like that.

Context, sir, would require you to be aware of that when talking to transfolk about how to explain, describe and express their lives and their expereinces.

Context, sir, would have as a start your not dismissing three of my responses to you telling you that cis is not an attack, and yet you stepped out of context to claim that it is far more times, despite such.

Context, sir, says that you don't walk into a thread and disrespect our terminology as if it was meaningless while ascribing a meaning to it that doesn't have.

Context, sir, is not a place you want to go with a sociologist who deals in it in ways you likely haven't even encountered yet.

Context, sir, is not calling this stuff "tripe" because you leap to a conclusion without evidence and then deny validity to explanations given you.

Context, sir, is not tuning out something that has cis- in it just because you are uncomfortable with a word based on your lack of familiarity with it.

Shall I go on? I can, you see.  I can demonstrate how even when I'm not being nice I'm still being kind because I could readily establish the ways in just your posts in this thread in which you have demonstrated transphobic ideas and understandings, yet I don't because I remember that you started ut saying something to the effect of you fight for inclusion and that you keep finishing with commentary intended to convey a sense of looking at commonality instead of difference.

Wonderful!

Go yell at John for being a fuckwit then.

Please.

And then come back and read again, with the knowledge that cis is NOT a freaking derogatory term and that you are indeed making all this up, and consider apologizing.

But don't apologize.  There's no need.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
When the word is followed by derogotory terms
it is contextually dishonest to pretend that it is not meant as a slam. When I read through the threads Cis is usually followed by adjectives like, white, privileged, asshole...when I read that it shuts down the dialogue. That is my point.

I am not going to apologize because I have an opinion any more than I would expect you to apologize for your opinions expressed here, that is a part of the debate. When the debate looses objectivity by one side attacking the other that does us both a disservice.

I explained in my posts why I thought the use of the term was offensive, I don't need to hear why you think that your definition is acceptable, rather than attack me and the fact that I am offended by the usage of the term one would think that you would actually attempt to understand why I find it offensive in the first place. Yet at each turn I am told that I just don't get it. Maybe I don't, but as long as I see that word used and followed by adjectives like asshole and fuckwad then I stand behind the fact that I find it offensive.

How would you feel if every time you read the word transgender it was followed up with asshole and fuckwad? I would never stoop to that level. I didn't make that up I read it here on this thread, this is the second time I have read these kind of comments on this blog and yes I am allowed to find it offensive when it is used in a context that I think is inappropriate. Tell me how is it that a term that was developed from Woman's studies is supposed to automatically make it acceptable to use it in the way it is tossed around on here, especially when it is followed by adjectives that are not complimentary? If you prefer the term CIS why use it in a fashion that is offensive?

Not one sentence of your entire post addresses how it makes me feel when I read comments that attempt to malign all gay white men, only an attempt to tell me how out of context I am, and to accuse me of making stuff up. It is that kind of blindness that prevents our movement from ever hearing the other sides opinion and having an understanding of how the other side feels. If you want me to take your feelings seriously stop pretending that my feelings don't count, or that my impression of what I have read here is just ignorant. I can read. In almost ever circumstance that the words CIS are used it is followed by adjectives that I find offensive.

You mean, a privileged gay man who is sexist and transphobic? **GASP** Tell me it's not true!! **faints onto couch**

Here is main point for Aravosis and all other cisgendered, transbigoted privileged assholes

Reading these two quotes makes for a very valid point that in each case the assumption is that gay men are either transphobic or transbigoted, that I find offensive. Regardless of how you frame the definition of CIS when it is used like that and all gay men are maligned as transphobic it does nothing to foster communication and understanding.

For the record I have written John and asked about the intent of the post and whether or not it was his intent to throw the T's under the bus. Did you? Have you tried to dialogue with him? Or is it just easier to come here and malign all gay white cis men as assholes and fuckwads and pricks?


[ Parent ]
Tell ya what...
... you probably don't realize that I pretty much never ask rhetorical questions.

So when you answer my questions (part of the dialog), I'll give you more credit.

You haven't.  Yet I've answered yours, or shown why the argument within the question is irrelevant.

So now you are saying that gay, man, privileged, sexist, and transphobic are all offensive to you?

Well, then perhaps you should look at why they are offensive.

Simple fact -- you have privilege that I don't. You find it offensive that I call you out on it. that is your problem, and your error.

Yes, error.  You might as well be complaining about being called white by a black person.

As already established in the record (which you are skimming not reading), um, yes, I have.  Several times.  John is not interested in such.

I gotta love how you claim the above quotes -- both are accurate, and yet you immediatley claim they refer to all gay men.  The second qupte is rather explicit, and the first one is obvious sarcasm.

Wow.  Pretense with me will always fail.

Your prejudice blinds you.  WHen you recover from it, let me know.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]