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Aravosis Needs To Issue His Own Apology To Trans People Before Citing TGs Regarding Fed LGBT Issues

by: Autumn Sandeen

Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 12:00:00 PM EDT



Oddly, Americablog blogger John Aravosis chosen to use a New York Times article on the improvement to the lots of transgender federal workers, entitled New Protections for Transgender Federal Workers to highlight the need for an apology from President Obama on the DOJ's recent DADT DOMA brief. Aravosis' piece begins as follows:

From the NYT:

Lawyers for President Obama are quietly drafting first-of-their kind guidelines barring workplace discrimination against transgender federal employees, officials said Tuesday.

The guidelines will be in an updated federal handbook for managers and supervisors to be distributed and posted online in the next couple of months, and they could also be included in other materials for managers. They will list transgender people - those who identify their gender differently from the information on their birth certificates - as among several groups protected by antidiscrimination laws.

This is a good thing, and an important step for the transgender community...

A "good thing" John? Really? You really think so?

Well, back to that point in a short bit. Aravosis, in this recent piece, calls for President Obama to apologize, and lists other grievances he has for the Obama Administration:

Not a word from the White House about that little chestnut. And there's the rub. It's great that the White House suddenly feels the need to act on a number of issues that help the gay community, only after we collectively beat the crap out of them. And they seem intent on finding every non-top-of-the-agenda item they can to "fix" in order to boost their pro-gay bona fides. Today, for example, we learn of the government's apology to Frank Kameny for having fired him 40 years ago for being gay. This is good thing. But again, it is not an explanation for how our president's DOJ could compare us to incest and pedophilia, and for why our president refuses to issue a stop-loss order preventing real governmental discrimination taking place today in 2009, not in 1957. It's almost as if the Obama administration hopes that if it can piece together a big enough list of small items, they can make us go away on our biggest issues, Obama's biggest promises, to repeal DOMA and DADT.

Let's remind the White House once again why we are all here:

• Will this president apologize for comparing our community to incest and pedophilia?

• Will he explain why the brief gratuitously argued for the dismantlement of the legal underpinning of our civil rights (suggesting that Loving v. Virginia had nothing to do with gay marriage equality)?

• Will he explain why our civil rights do not matter his making an exemption - which he is in his rights to do - to the standard, but not exclsuvei [sic], practice of a president defending existing law? Why won't he oppose DOMA in court?

And then there's DADT...

Funny now that Aravosis uses a piece that begins with a transgender component to begin an screed against the president's policies towards the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community. It's "funny" because John Aravosis has pretty much said that he doesn't believe transgender people belong in the  -- or perhaps I should say "his" and not the -- "gay community". And of course, he never apologized for his statement.

From Aravosis' Americablog piece of October 3rd, 2007 entitled The Transgender Fiasco, John Aravosis argued that he didn't feel transgender people should have been included in an lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community, and used the term gay community in the piece in a specific attempt to use a term that intentionally excluded lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people:

I would argue that the gay community never collectively and overwhelmingly decided to include the T in LGB (or GLB). It happened because a few groups like NGLTF and GLAAD starting using it, and they and a handful of vocal activists and transgender leaders pretty much shamed everyone else into doing it. Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the T shouldn't have been added. I'm just saying that I don't think the T was added because there was a groundswell of demand in the gay community that we add T to LGB. I think it happened through pressure, organizational fiat, shame, and osmosis.

And that is how we got into the mess we're in today.

Read the whole piece entitled The Transgender Fiasco, and see if you don't come away with the same thoughts I do when reading it -- my understanding that Aravosis doesn't want trans people in his "gay community". I'd say that The Transgender Fiasco, and its companion piece Should we kill ENDA if transgendered people aren't included?, should be real eye-openers for those who are both fans of transgender inclusion in ENDA and of the Americablog.

Hey, if Mr. Aravosis wants to rail against the Obama Administration for not doing enough for the LGBT community, I'm going to side with him -- the Obama Andministration hasn't done enough. But, for him to use a New York Times on transgender federal employement issues to argue that the Obama Administration owes the LGBT community an apology on the DADT brief? Oooooooooh no. That doesn't get a pass from me at all.

Mr. Aravosis owes an apology to the transgender subcommunity of the LGBT community for personally approving of kicking transgender people and issues out of the broad lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community for the benefit of ENDA 2007/2008, and now he currently owes a fresh apology to the transgender subcommunity  of the LGBT community for using a story about the transgender subcommunity to make a point about the Obama Administration's treatment of LGBT people.

Frankly, the term is overused, but I'm still going to use it here because I don't have a better term to describe how I feel about Aravosis' use of the transgender subcommunity  of the LGBT community to make a point about the Obama Administration: I'm offended by Aravosis' statement. When John Aravosis issues an apology to the transgender subcommunity, and he writes a piece about how he now embraces lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people in a broad lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender civil rights movement, then in my opinion he will have at least some sort of moral authority on which to turn news about the transgender subcommunity into calls for apologies.

Please. Mr. Aravosis should take a read at Matthew 7:

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Mr. Aravosis should be pulling the plank out of his own eye regarding trans people and issues before using transgender people to make a point on LGBT civil rights -- before using trans people and issues as a starting point for making a statement about how the Obama Administration needs to appologize regrding LGBT civil rights -- and that horrid DADT DOMA brief of a couple of weeks ago.

Autumn Sandeen :: Aravosis Needs To Issue His Own Apology To Trans People Before Citing TGs Regarding Fed LGBT Issues
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Mr. Aravosis should be pulling the plank out of his own eye regarding trans people and issues
I was thinking his head and another of his organs - but its your diary.  I'll defer to you :)

>^..^<

Aravosis No Fan of Trans People
I have been asked more than a few times why I don't link to AmericaBlog.

Until the whole fracas erupted over the "T" in "LGBT," I didn't know who he was. Then, a reader forwarded something he wrote which strenuously argued against the inclusion of the "T" in "LGBT." It was one of the strangest things I've read written by someone who is 1.): gay and, 2.): (allegedly) a liberal. There was so much hostility in his piece that it was as if he had been abused by a Trans person as a child and carried that anger into adulthood.

Frankly, I find Aravosis a rather shrill, hysterical and shameless self-promoter and that's all fine and good but the vitriol aimed at Trans folks seems bizarre and misplaced.

People ask, "How have you guys managed to stay so long?" I tell them, "Don't sweat the small stuff." It's mostly small stuff.


Generally that kind of abusive attitude
comes from someone who is apparently so insecure about their own gender, they feel the need to rail against others. To wit: "If we include the Ts, people will think I wear a dress sometimes too!"

[ Parent ]
Agreed
Several of my readers are former AB regulars. They report Aravosis has major issues with women and Trans folks. It's a shame.

People ask, "How have you guys managed to stay so long?" I tell them, "Don't sweat the small stuff." It's mostly small stuff.

[ Parent ]
Aravosis no liberal
I don't think he's really a "liberal" either. He's a one-note self-interested white cis gay man.

He is racist, sexist, and transphobic -- liberals are marked by not only caring for themselves, but for others with whom they make alliance.

And Aravosis wrote:

A lot of gays have been scratching their heads for 10 years trying to figure out what they have in common with transsexuals, or at the very least why transgendered people qualify as our siblings rather than our cousins. It's a fair question, but one we know we dare not ask. It is simply not p.c. in the gay community to question how and why the T got added on to the LGB, let alone ask what I as a gay man have in common with a man who wants to cut off his penis, surgically construct a vagina, and become a woman.

That is not how liberal queers talk about trans people. That is how former GOP senate staffers talk about trans people.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
It seems so obvious to me, a gay man...
We are all gender transgressors in the eyes of society, either by loving the 'wrong' gender, or living as the 'wrong' gender. Pretty simple. But I've had arguments with boneheaded gay friends who insist 'those people' are ruining 'our' cause.

It's all one cause, people.


Beautiful point
And so true.

[ Parent ]
Sad
It's sorry to see once again the ignorance of some folks who see themselves as superior to others when it comes to civil rights.

Don't the gay boys know that if it wasn't for a couple of those drag queens they look down on they wouldn't be where they are today?

Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P Johnson should be named in the same breath as Harvey Milk, Bayard Rustin, and other early pioneers!

I am so bloody sick and tired of elitism within our community! We're all in this together, you morons!

This is the reason why the reicht is so successful in getting their agenda passed -- because we do their work for them when the macho gays look down on the queens and the sissy boys, when the dykes look down on transdykes, and both look down on our bisexual brothers and sisters, and the whiles look down on the non-whites, ad nauseum...

Listen to "TransTalk" every Thursday at 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org


[ Parent ]
I am fond of a quote from Ms Rivera
"This is the Revolution. I'm not missing a minute of it"

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

[ Parent ]
Basically we need to stop treating Aravosis like he speaks for the LGBT community on anything.
He's good at rabble-rousing, good at yelling at people on the tee-vee, good at generating memes that get picked up by the MSM, but terrible at strategy, terrible at analysis, and totally lacking any form of intersectional understanding of oppression.

He's also lacking in basic intellectual honesty, as has now been documented by
LawDork http://lawdork.wordpress.com/2...
Bilerico http://www.bilerico.com/2009/0...
and Box Turtle Bulletin http://www.boxturtlebulletin.c...

And the worst part is how Aravosis assaults anyone who doesn't agree with his views, as Geidner points out, "he attributes bad-faith or malintent to anyone - from President Obama to Chairman Barney Frank and others - who dare not to advance those misstatements and overstatements."

We need to put the pressure on, but we need to do it in a way that is honest, inclusive, tactical and intellectually rigorous.  


Though, the irony
is that he is so insane that even when he's right, he has lost so much credibility it doesn't even matter.

For example, any rational person has known that Obama is a homobigot ever since McClurkin.  But Avriosis decided (after a week of ranting about it) to promote the notion that Obama is some sort of friend to the GLBT community.

Now with the DOMA brief as one more example of Obama's bigotry, Avriosis' new howling just rings hollow.  The damage has been done.


[ Parent ]
actually, funny you bring that up.
Aravosis was the primary force behind the the McClurkin meme too.  And while there were good reasons to criticize Obama's foolish error in not vetting mcclurkin fully after he was recommended to the campaign by Oprah, Aravosis spent post after post lying about the episode, claiming baselessly that McLurkin was "one of obama's top surrogates!"  and that he said "gays are trying to kill our children".

One of the candidate's "top surrogates!"   A crazy guy that sang a couple songs at a total of 3 events!  Aravosis just can't be trusted.


[ Parent ]
Um, it was a flash
point in a critical state at a critical point in the primaries, and Obama stood his ground with a fellow homobigot.

And the Rick Warren episodes and the DOMA brief just brign furtther proof.  

Foolish error my ass.


[ Parent ]
a crazy guy that sang three songs?
that's all he was?  really?  

if that's your idea of honest, inclusive, tactical and intellectually rigorous reasoning, we'll never see results.  we need outrage.  it's our best weapon in gaining civil rights.  

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
One of the most popular gospel singers
in America. You have no idea ahow galvanized the African American community galvinized around Obama because of that "crazy guy with three songs."

[ Parent ]
Kevin's correct here
The McClurkin thing was a misstep by Obama.

In the AmericaBlogReality, that misstep became a deliberate Stab In The Back.

Because Aravosis, a white cis racist, does not like the idea of a black candidate. And also, Aravosis' whole business model is built on finding things to get outraged about and then asking for money.

Some liberals are amazed that people listen to someone like Rush Limbaugh or Michael Savage and don't immediately see through them. They think liberals are immune to that stuff.

It's not true. Aravosis is an example of the worst kind of conservative rabble-rouser; the kind who gets us to turn on each other. And pro-queer liberals keep falling for it -- even though Aravosis has proven repeatedly that he will sell out whoever he can in order to get what he wants.

Trans people should never trust him. Neither should anyone else -- he'll dump you as soon as he doesn't need you or you're a "liability" to his personal crusades.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
I'm a GBM from Chicago
and I don't need John Aravosis to tell me that the Donnie McClurkin episode was race and gay baiting at it's finest; a cynical move by the Obama campaign.

And didn't Aravosis (along with Sullivan, Andy Towle, and Dan Savage's newspaper) actually endorse Obama in the primaries?

Another thing;; Autumn has very publicaly that due to the nature of the way "cis" is being used in this particular thread, that people stop using and yet you continue to do so?


[ Parent ]
Aravosis and Obama
Aravosis was even more bothered by the idea of a woman candidate.

Autumn isn't the boss of me, and I don't believe (as some defensive non-trans queers do) identifying Aravosis -- a known anti-trans cissexist bigot -- as "cis" is insulting.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
he's taken the position of attack dog
and it's in a realm where more of them are desperately needed.  he takes his cues from the republican playbook--who, in case no one has noticed, is still having an obscene amount of political leverage despite their miserable approval ratings.  this is not surprising, given that he has often discussed his republican past.  it's classic republican talking points--sound bites, headlines that are caricatures of the actual events taking place, and distortions--that serve an end objective.  it generates outrage among readers/listeners.  and when it gets attention and the MSM will dutifully reports on it to a larger audience, that tactic can be ruled something of a success, don't you think?  

so he has SLIGHTLY maligned the events and the people surrounding the DOJ brief....the outrage that has been stirred up has been called historic, unprecedented.  in other words, it's worked.  we can be the attack dogs from time to time too, and i think it's refreshing to not be on the receiving end of malignment, for once.

i can understand the anger over aravosis's support to ditch the trans community over the last ENDA bill, but the general tone of his general worthlessness in these comments is unmerited.    

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
Agreed 100%
If the LGBT community keeps sitting around singing songs and patting itself on the back then we all lose.  I firmly believe we need more rabble-rousers like AmericaBlog to really wind people up and get them involved.

The DOMA brief pulled me back in.  John's reaction to the DOMA brief and subsequent posts have KEPT me in.  I'm not saying he's a saint but I don't understand why people hate him so much on this site.

I read the linked story about putting the T in LGBT and I think he made wonderful points.  When we think of the "gay community," a LOT leave out Trans-folks.  A LOT ignore their needs.  A LOT are still uncomfortable with including them because A LOT still think it hurts our odds. Is it right?  Nope, not one bit.  Is that how a lot of people really feel?  You bet your ass.

He's encouraging discussion, asking valid questions and I think too much is being read into a 2 year old post.  


[ Parent ]
he seems that way
but in reality he was not doing so.

Look through those comments and find the one's marked dyssonance.

Please.

I wrote over 200 posts there.

And I was a lot more pleasant then.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
"Too much being read into a 2 year old post"
Uh, hey, some of us were there when Aravosis publicly made the case that we don't belong in his cisgender gay-rights movement.

It's not ancient history for us. It's the way Aravosis treats trans people. We've borne the scars; we're the ones who had our comments deleted or edited, earned our bans from his site.

And you wonder why we hate the guy?

Where the hell were you two years ago? Cheering him on as he proclaimed, not only within the queer community, but to Salon's readership, that trans people are an unwanted and unwelcome burden to the cis gays?

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
100% Agree.
We need more John Aravosis's, not less.

[ Parent ]
There is no place, NONE,
for misogyny in the gay rights movement, IMHO.  Avriosis lost all credibility last year.

[ Parent ]
We need less of John Aravosis
He's the Perez Hilton of political blogging.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Well...
When you are a trans gay man, then he is, indeed, worthless, and there is, indeed, merit to that.

OR do you deny such still?

And when you are trying to remind people that John's ability to be an attack dog is, in part, due to the efforts of trans people, well...

You still want to say that?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
without gay rights, there are no trans rights
i believe you've said so yourself and if you haven't, you should have.  i think that's been the point of this thread.    

if you claim that he is worthless when he has brought to light so many important political issues and fomented the rage that has prompted responses from our leaders, then you are basically saying that gay issues don't matter to people.  now maybe trans issues don't matter to him--whether that is true or not was the original purpose of this thread before it was completely hijacked--but to discount his efforts just because they are gay-focused is TOTALLY hypocritical, if you truly believe that our causes are one in the same.    

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
No, you're wrong
"without gay rights, there are no trans rights"

There can and are trans rights where gay rights don't exist.

For example, in a number of places, a post-transition straight trans person can get married.

Also, you have causality reversed. Without trans people, there would have been no gay rights movement. Learn your history.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Yeah, straight out of the Republican playbook
And just think of all that those Republicans did for the working-class "Middle Americans" that supported them. Oh, wait...

[ Parent ]
the "attack dog" has gone rabid
He told trans people to get the fuck out of "his" movement (you know, the one started 40 years ago by people such as Sylvia Rivera), so I can't see why you're mystified that trans people consider him toxic. He is toxic, to us, and if you don't see that, then you're not a trans ally.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
I'm just surprised that
anyone take Avriosis seriously after all the insane (and deeply misogynistic) crap he threw at Hillary Clinton last year.

The only way to deal with a mean, nasty nut like Avriosis, IMHO, is to ignore him.


Yes, that too.
I just couldn't visit AmericaBlog during the primaries because of that. The sexism was WAY over the top.

Want to save marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how! ;-)

[ Parent ]
Say it isn't so!
You mean, a privileged gay man who is sexist and transphobic? **GASP** Tell me it's not true!! **faints onto couch**

Seriously, the misogynist, transphobic, Obamabot garbage Aravosis and those like him have spewed in the past makes me SO grateful for the true progressives here at the Blend. Y'all have NO idea how much I value this place and this community.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
If I didn't know better
I'd swear you were being a bit sarcastic there, dear! ;)


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

[ Parent ]
Same here
I was not at all a fan of Hillary, but Aravosis' unrelenting attacks on her were so blatantly, over-the-top sexist, I stopped reading his blog.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu


[ Parent ]
I was rather anti-Hillary
then came around to respect her very much- in part because of what I was reading on Americablog... guessing that wasn't the intent!

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

[ Parent ]
LOL, the general idiot sexism
that her campaign was subjected to definitely won her some sympathy from me. I wasn't gung-ho on her or Obama (until the general, then I became an Obama fan...)

[ Parent ]
In fact, my boneheaded ex-friend...
...used to bloviate on his favorite subject, that we gays need a 'strong leader' who will keep the sissies and cross-dressers (and I assume butch lesbians?) in line, so we can finally gain acceptance for the real gays and lesbians (he of course would not include transgenders).

I  have heard that suggestion again recently, on forums. It's alarming.


Yesterday's thinking.
So, if we "clean up" our community enough and make it "socially acceptable" enough we'll win the approval of whom exactly? What bothers me about this line of thinking is that it (hopefully unintentionally) latches onto the heterosexist assumption that sex type and gender roles are fixed and rigid, and that anyone transgressing needs to be put back in line. I think if we take a serious look at the gay community in all its diversity, and hell, the human animal itself, gender behaviors vary. Any idea that there's a staunch dichotomy just plays into the narrow regressive thinking of the old gaurd. This issue does in fact underscore how bias anyone can be about issues that are in fact in line with their own. Its an oversight that I hope the gent Aravosis we're speaking on can overcome.

"So. What have we learned? We have learned the first lesson. They will always hate us... We must give the ordinary humans respect, compliance, and understanding. And we must never mistake that for trust." - Emma Frost, Astonishing X-Men, 1



[ Parent ]
How are the Log Cabin Republicans
treating your (ex)friend?

[ Parent ]
Oops
hit post too soon -- yeah, he had some definite fascsist tendencies. When he was talking about the community needing a 'strong leader' to keep the 'swishy ones' and the 'trannies' in check, I suggested Hitler. He did not think that was funny.

But it was a dumb suggestion, he's dead.


[ Parent ]
Hilter did keep the trannis in line
if we could just moderate him on the gays!

(I'm totally kidding, hitler jokes are not funny!)


[ Parent ]
Hilter did keep the trannis in line
if we could just moderate him on the gays!

(I'm totally kidding, hitler jokes are not funny!)


[ Parent ]
amen

Its all one cause , and Aravosis gives his "gay" community a bad name. I will never forgive him EVER for those two blog posts..you sited Autumn - he owes the T in the lgbT an apology and now with this NYT article hits a new level of duplicity..go to hell john. opps did i just say that out loud. And a big thank you to all the gays and lesbians without gender dissonance for seeing yes we are one community we are all gender transgressors at the very least - thank you tikihead and my blogger buddy Christopher di Spirito. You both have more clarity than Aravosis will have ever. He is interested in power and power along..i do not like to even hit that blog. Its a toxic place. TOXIC - in the business of self perpetuation and not much more. Alex Blaze also wrote a very interesting post on Bilerico called america blog interupted...and its a very good read.  

Aravosis is the perfect example
Of why you shouldn't expect people who have been historically oppressed to identify with other oppressed groups. After Prop 8 passed, I heard a number of people asking how straight African Americans could support a discriminatory policy after their own long struggle with discrimination, but to me that line of thinking was all wrong.

One is not suddenly dignified or ennobled just because they have had a set of their rights denied either in the past or present. People generally care about issues that affect them, and having felt the sting of discrimination doesn't suddenly make them care about problems they do not see as their own.


in some manner you can see how the oppressed
might view gains as a zero-sum game. Logically it makes no sense, but if you're struggling it might be one's instinct to deny others a seat at a table.

[ Parent ]
He'll say he's for our rights...but only when it's convenient for him
Aravosis and his like never seem to have a problem "sticking up for" trans people (read: appropriating our experiences) when it serves to strengthen their talking points, but as soon as doing so no longer helps them, suddenly trans people don't matter anymore. Pretty par for the course. It's just that this time it's harder to stomach when he's doing it to protest the Obama administration doing the exact same thing to his gay community.

I had no idea lesbians didn't consider themselves part of the "gay community."
"...and used the term gay community in the piece in a specific attempt to use a term that intentionally excluded lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people."

That statement makes no sense to me.  Every lesbian I know considers herself part of the "gay community."

Most transgender people I know tell me they were never gay, just "born in the wrong body," so by their own definition I guess they're not part of the "gay community."



[ Parent ]
Unless
they (that is, "we") happen to be both trans AND gay.

[ Parent ]
LIKE ME!
Proud to be both trans AND lesbian!

Listen to "TransTalk" every Thursday at 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org

[ Parent ]
Hell yes!
Out, trans and lesbian! And PROUD!

[ Parent ]
Um, Ninong
I think Autumn's point was that ARAVOSIS was attempting to use the term "gay community" in such a way so as to exclude the L, B, and T. Given his past history of blatant misogyny and his disrespect for queers who AREN'T privileged, white, cisgendered, male, Stepford gays, I can't imagine that Autumn was too far off the mark in her assessment.

Autumn herself has never said that "gay community" only includes men like Aravosis. To the contrary, she - and pretty much everyone in the Blender community, readers and Baristas alike - go to great lengths to be inclusive of all those who don't fit Aravosis' idea of what the "gay community" should be.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
"Stepford gays"
Do you think referring to us as Stepford Gays is being inclusive?

[ Parent ]
Yes, John Aravosis can't say...
He's for all of our community when it's convenient for him, then throw trans people under the bus. While he's right about President Obama needing to act on all of our civil rights, he doesn't exactly have clean hands either.

Want to save marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how! ;-)

I had no idea lesbians didn't consider themselves part of the "gay community."
 
"...and used the term gay community in the piece in a specific attempt to use a term that intentionally excluded lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people."

That statement makes no sense to me.  Every lesbian I know considers herself part of the "gay community."

Most transgender people I know tell me they were never gay, just "born in the wrong body," so by their own definition I guess they're not part of the "gay community."


Well, duh!
Most transgender people I know tell me they were never gay, just "born in the wrong body," so by their own definition I guess they're not part of the "gay community."

They're different cases. Gay/lesbian is a sexual orientation. However, being transgender isn't that. It's about the sex/gender one identifies as. There are transgender people attracted to the same sex and the opposite sex.

But just because transgender people aren't all gay doesn't mean we should toos them aside. They've fought alongside us for "LGB" rights. Why should we forget about them now?

Want to save marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how! ;-)


[ Parent ]
Exactly!
Being trans may not be a sexual orientation per se, but there's a lot of overlap on the issues we face. Besides that, it's not as if there aren't trans people who are also queer, either.

[ Parent ]
the word "gay" does exclude
I already wrote about this on a much earlier thread by Waymon about why the word "homosexual" pisses GLBT folks off so much...but I agree that the term "gay" excludes lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender folks who do not identify as gay (of course there are transgender people who also identify as gay men). "Gay" is a term for men who have sex with men. I also think it's the least "offensive" word for those who want to claim a space in mainstream America...remember how furious Lynne Cheney was when John Edwards called her daughter a lesbian? Well, guess what? Mary Cheney IS a lesbian. She is not a gay man. And I am bi, which is definitely not included in "gay".

That's why I like the word queer...it embraces ALL expressions of sexual identity and gender identity.

Plus, who cares whether trans folks identify as gay or not? Many of our issues are one and the same, and there's no reason whatsoever to leave anyone out of the queer movement.  


[ Parent ]
I guess I learned something new today.
I had no idea lesbians were NOT part of the "gay community."  The statement that I disagreed with was the statement by the author that the phrase "gay community" excludes lesbians.

I said I could understand how transgendered people might be excluded because they all tell me that they're not "gay," just born into the wrong body.

However, every lesbian I have ever met considers herself part of the "gay community."  The author of the article we are commenting on made the claim that lesbians are NOT part of the "gay community."

Apparently most of you agree that the phrase "gay community" EXCLUDES lesbians.  That's new to me.  I really didn't know that.


[ Parent ]
I think it's ambiguous
and frequently used both ways.

[ Parent ]
if gay specifies men only
then why in your post do you use the terms "gay men" and "gay man"?  why do you feel the need to add men or man after gay if you claim it is a gender specific term.

Lesbians are gay women.  I know it isn't currently politically correct as many lesbians prefer to segregate themselves from gay men because they feel they have a different agenda and different issues.  At least that is how one lesbian explained it to me.  According to her, they wanted an exclusive term and dropped the use of gay so as not to be included with gay men, whom they thought were only interested in hedonistic sexual activities and not the "familiy issues" that lesbians were concerned about.

And, pardon me, but...  A gay man is still a gay man whether he has sex with men or not.  You are making the same mistake that the righties make and defining people by sexual activity.  You have bought into their theory that a homosexual man who is celebate is no longer "gay".  So, your theory that gay is a term for men who have sex with men is incorrect.  Gay is a term for men or women who are sexually attracted to the same-sex exclusively.


[ Parent ]
Who, me?
timNC,

Who are you talking to?  I didn't use the term "gay men" and "gay man" in my posts, yet you replied to MY post.  What's up?

All I'm saying is that Autumn Sandeen made the claim in her article that lesbians are not part of the "gay community" and I didn't know that.  I had no idea that lesbians were NOT part of the gay community.

She said that the term "gay community" excludes lesbians.  I had no idea.  I always thought lesbians were part of the "gay community."  That was news to me.  I had no idea they were so upset that anyone would dare include them in the term "gay community."

I thing the claim that lesbians are NOT part of the "gay community" is ridiculous!


[ Parent ]
my reply
was to elizabethws, just like your reply was.  Check the post again.  Mine is NOT indented under yours, mine is an additional reply at the same level as yours

[ Parent ]
I understand that "gay community" can be used in a way that many see as...

...inclusively include the broader lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community.

As others have pointed out in this blog thread, Aravosis has written many posts that many LGBT and progressive people find mysoginistic. I wrote a in this diary that Aravosis definitely does not include transgender people when he uses the phrase gay community, and many lesbian and bisexual women don't believe that when Aravosis says gay community, he means to include them.

My definite point was that when Aravois uses the phrase "gay community," he uses the phrase in a way to exclude certain people from what I would call the LGBT community; Aravosis doesn't use that phrase as an inclusive manner. At the very least, his use of the term gay community is specifically meant to exclude trans people.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
It's all a good blog, Autumn.....
But here is the real 'capper' re how he feels.
And they seem intent on finding every non-top-of-the-agenda item they can to "fix" in order to boost their pro-gay bona fides.

  Yep, specifically thrown to the bottom of the pile again.

I think, so that we don't all just look a bit silly argueing just whose full Civil Rights are 'more important,'  ....  we should go back to that discussion we had a while ago re terminology.

Let's just take up 'Queer' again, as it is all encompassing. It still has a little negativity attached, but we could turn that around by using it and embracing it more, and then always confirming in legislation, etc. that 'everyone' is included.

(PS At end. that was a horrible DOMA brief I think.)

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


Yes, that's also why...
I use "queer". I don't see why we shouldn't reclaim it and detach the stigma.

Want to save marriage equality in Maine? Ask me how! ;-)

[ Parent ]
i think you are a bit off on this comment
John was comparing all the smaller items Obama has been trying to placate LGBTs with like the FEW benefits for some federal employees to the top-of-the agenda items of DOMA, DADT, ENDA (trans inclusive).  He was not throwing trans issues in general to the bottom.  But, was saying that FEDERAL TRANS EMPLOYEES only was a non top of the agenda item JUST LIKE a few benefits for some LGB federal employees are a non top pfthe agenda item.

[ Parent ]
And my point was...

...Aravosis, in my opinion, shouldn't be using trans federal workers as a tool to make a point about the President apoligizing for the anti-LGBT DADT brief when he's talked about trans people not rightly belonging in the gay community (as a LG or LGB community -- a community he sees as being rightly grouped with T's) -- or gender identity not beloging in the civil rights legislation that includes sexual orientation.

He wants the President to apologize; I want Aravosis to apologize. I was drawing a parity in our positions on community-related appologies.

Aravosis had his blog to make his point; I had Pam's House Blend to make my point. I see no issue with both of us making our points within our own forums -- this is what free speech is about.

But given free speech, neither of us have a right to consequence-free free speech. He made his point citing DADT and other LGBT issues citing a NYT article on trans people, and I took issue with him being what I consider a hypocrite on trans issues. That was a consequence of him citing an article regarding federal trans workers to make points on LGBT issues.

Not much of a consequence, is it? :P And others in this thread taking me to task on my take is my consequence for writing my opinion on Aravosis' article

Still, both of us got to say our peace, and that's one of the things I consider pretty wonderful about living in America.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
What an ass
Does he seriously not see the resemblance to the anti-gay bigots?

"I'm not an idiot and bigot for wanting to dump __ on their ass with no rights, its just that everyone else secretly agrees their weirdos but is to scared of being called a bigot to admit they want them gone"

^Sounds exactly like the 'silent majority' the religious right is always claiming exists and would show themself if they weren't scared of being labelled bigots, doesnt it? The only difference is this bigot is talking about a 'silent majority' opposed to T's and not the 'silent majority' opposed to all LBGT's he stole his argument from.  


That's horrid...
I knew there was some problem between Aravosis and the trans members of our community, but I never had the chance to go back and find out what the source of the problem was or how big it was.  I'll be skipping linking to his blog from now on.  

Of course, I'm a butch dyke who wears men's clothes, so I don't know if that'll hurt him much.  (Maybe that's why my comment on his blog about unleashing the gender transgressors to kick some *ss disappeared, along with every comment after that.  I figured it might be a technical problem, so I stopped trying after about 3.)


[ Parent ]
Well, if we ever meet...

...Hope you don't mind getting a big, sloppy hug from a very "girly" trans woman. :)

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
A Question...
Maybe it's just me, but the gay people who "reared" me as a baby dyke taught me that the trans community and other "gender transgressors" really went to bat for our rights in the 60's and 70's.  Didn't people like Aravosis get the memo?  Or are they just ungrateful *ssholes?

You're right: ungrateful assholes
Read Aravosis's piece at Salon -- he thinks trans people were forced into the movement from outside and above, and real gay people don't want those icky trans people around.

He clearly didn't get the memo. He was too busy being a closeted conservative Republican operative while trans people were working on, and dying for, queer rights.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
No, Bible, please!
Autumn, do we need to quote Matthew to make a point? Is that the best argument against Aravosis?  It might be if he were a Bible thumper, but honestly, you do a fine job just quoting him against himself, showing his inconsistencies and lack of insight.  let's leave the Bible out of this.  It's used way too much in contemporary political discourse and it's gotten tiresome.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

*Hivemind*


Are you talking about what it is you know, or just repeating what it was you heard?

Grace Slick

www.anonymous-t-girl.blogspot.com


[ Parent ]
Hivemind, indeed
Too many busy bees quoting the Bible to sting this or that.
Who cares what the Bible says in any secular discussion?  Makes as much sense as to quote Beowulf.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Has anyone HERE ever tried to talk to him about this issue?
I would be curious to know if any of the blenders here have ever tried to speak (or correspond) with him about this issue?

There is always talk about reaching out and trying to talk and familiarize others to our cause (ie educate the black church community) and I would be interested in knowing if anyone here has tried this with him.

Might it not be better to try to have a conversation with him, than to demonize him?  Currently he is one of the few major blog voices to be speaking out about the current crop of issues before us.

He may be wrong (which I believe he is) on the issue of transgendered individuals, but could it be that he is just as uninformed about that segment of our community as straights are to the gay community as a whole?  Not everyone has the knowledge about the transgendered community that this blog gives us, but shouldn't we then try to educate him and make him aware of the issues he is wrong about?  

He should be called out for his perceived bigotry, but if we wish to change his mind, isn't it best to utilize the same tactics we recommend for building consensus in the heterosexual community?

Why not call him out on this issue on his very own blog.  Because when reading the story, I see that in his comment section there are 27 comments, and not one person decide to tell him how they feel about this issue.  Why not stand up and say something on his site, where he will almost certainly respond?

Conversations do not happen when we talk ABOUT others, they happen when we talk WITH them.

   

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


Emphasis on the word talk
not point fingers, per se, scream, shout but...dialogue.

[ Parent ]
Not to mention one of the linked to articles is a call for dialouge.
The Should we kill ENDA if transgendered people aren't included? article is actually a call to have a discussion, to start the conversation.  Yes, John has some issues, YES he is sometimes inelegant in his writing, but I see more than just the slam to the transgendered portion of our community that the diarist does.  I see a call to have the discussion.  Isn't it better to TRY to have the conversation and be inelegant in your writing than not have the conversation at all?  Isn't this similar to the race conversation that we have had in the past about how and why the conversation on racism is so difficult to have?

It seems that if you try to have the conversation you get accused of being a bigot.  Well, the conversation will NEVER start if we all keep reading what we want to into every attempt at finding a consensus.

http://www.americablog.com/200...

Some in the gay community, including the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, say that if transgender is not included in ENDA, the legislation should be killed. Others say that we should take half a loaf, pass ENDA without gender identity, and continue to fight for transgender rights in the future - this is what happened in New York where the lead gay group accepted ENDA-like legislation that did not include gender identity.

I'm not going to weigh in, yet, because I'm curious what you all think and don't wish to prejudice the discussion. I will, however, give you a bit more background on the various points of view.

Kill ENDA if gender identity is not included
The main argument here is that we shouldn't leave a portion of our community behind. We'd never pass ENDA if it only included lesbians but left behind gay men, so why pass it if it doesn't include transgendered people? The underlying assumption here is that gender identity is the same thing as, or close enough to, sexual orientation as to make gays, lesbians, and transgendered people all one family.

Pass ENDA even if gender identity is not included
Depending who you speak to, there are various arguments here. The first is that it's better to take half a loaf than nothing. The second is that the gender identity issue is new to the game - gays and lesbians have been lobbying for decades to pass this legislation, gender identity advocates have not been lobbying, have not been a serious movement, nearly as long. Thus, their time will come, but it's not time yet. And a third argument is that gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation, so what is it doing in the bill at all.

This third point is perhaps the most crucial, the most controversial, and the least debated issue in this entire debate. While some, many, consider the gender identity community part of the gay community, others ask when this addition to the family occured. Some of the opposition to the inclusion of transgendered people is based on prejudice, a visceral dislike of "drag queens" and the like. And I suspect some of the support for the inclusion of transgendered people is based on the opposite gut instinct, a visceral like of and sympatico for transgendered people, rather than a rational argument as to why gay men are as similar to transgendered people as they are to lesbians. But some of the opposition is based on a legitimate disagreement as to whether believing you are a man trapped in a woman's body is the same thing as, or similar enough thing to, being a man who likes other men or a woman who likes other women.

I've not seen a lot of public debate in the gay community about the transgender issue being akin to sexual orientation, other than from those who argue that of course gender identity should be included in the larger gay community and of course we should kill ENDA if they're not included. I also suspect that the lack of a debate is not a true indication that a debate does not exist. So, let's have one.

Except we can't have one, because any time someone attempts it, no one can hear what they say over the cries of bigotry.  In having this type of conversation, or trying to, one will make messy statements that may seem bigoted, yet may only come from a place of non-understanding, of not having been able to have the conversation in the first place because one doesn't know how to pose the question in terms that the other does not find offensive.  

My teachers, while I was growing up, always told me that the only stupid question was the one not asked.  So I ask:

HOW ARE WE TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION IF NO ONE WILL ASK THE QUESTIONS, EVEN IF THEY DO SO IN A WAY THAT MIGHT SOUND OFFENSIVE?

We cannot expect to win people over if we never talk about the problems.  No relationship was ever healed while each side demonized the other.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
Yes
It seems that if you try to have the conversation you get accused of being a bigot.
Because those who want to 'have that conversation' conveniently refuse to accept the notion of 'having a conversation' about anything other than 'gay marriage NOW' being acceptable.

We are negotiable, but nothing non-trans is.

THAT'S why even 'having the discussion' is offensive.  The first time gays and lesbians 'had the discussion' about trans-inclusion was in the 1970s - and within five years we were, politically, on the train to Siberia.

You want to 'have the conversation'?

Be prepared for the response from those who the conversation is about - and don't complain about it or its tone or its volume when it comes.

>^..^<


[ Parent ]
so a failure 30 years ago is the end of it?
Wow.  We wouldn't have any rights at all if everyone took that attitude.

And if it's a discussion on the community as a whole, that makes non transgendered individuals part of "who the conversation is about".

And I simply don't understand why I shouldn't be able to complain if the "tone" of any future discussions isn't civil.  I'm civil to those I have discussions with, simply because I know that nothing will ever be learned or taught if there is no civility in the conversation.

How do you expect the rift to be repaired if you don't hold BOTH sides of the conversation accountable?  Things will stay exactly where they are and never improve for either segment if we continue to hold onto attitudes like that.

It has been my conversations with my friend Adrianne that have enlightened me to the transgendered issues, and that was because she allowed me to ask the questions that sounded moronic and offensive, because she understood we don't always share the same language, and that because of how confusing the issue had been for her, she understood how confusing it could be for someone like me, who did not come from that same space as she did.

Public condemnation doesn't change peoples minds, it only changes what they say out loud.  They still vote the same way, they still think the same way.  I thought the goal, other than legal equality, was to change the hearts of those who did not understand or agree with us.  Isn't that what this site has been calling for in other areas where we as a WHOLE community are trying to change the public perception?

Flies Honey Vinegar.  I think you understand.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
Quit dodging the issue
so a failure 30 years ago is the end of it?  
Wow.  We wouldn't have any rights at all if everyone took that attitude.
Sounds a lot like the Bush junta criminals saying that investigating what they did while they were in charge is unproductive.

Status quo = they get away with murder.

Status quo = the gay elites get away with manufacturing a fake reality in which anyone who came in to the gay community/politics after 1975 gets taught that trans concerns are either not properly part of 'the agenda' at all or are always too much too soon....

and they tell two lovers...

and they tell two lovers...

and they tell two lovers...............

>^..^<


[ Parent ]
What issue am I dodging?
It seems to be you that is dodging an issue.  I ask why can't we have the conversation and you say last time we did that it didn't work, and then you say the whole conversation is offensive.

How the heck do you, or anyone else, think the issue is going to change if it is so offensive to even broach?

I also think it disengenious to claim this is an issue brought about by the gay "Elites".  You don't seriously believe that there are NO average Joe and Jane homosexual people who have these same questions and thoughts?

And it certainly isn't contained to JUST the male homosexual population.  I do recall all the furor in San Francisco when the local lesbian womyns club started banning trans women from their group because they were not natural born women.

How is everything going to get better if it offends you to just have a conversation?  Isn't it the same thing that we tell the gay and lesbians on this blog, "People's perceptions change when they know a gay person" well, the same should be said about transgendered people.

I had no clue about the issue of transgenders before I met my friend Adrianne, who bothered to actually talk to me and answer questions that you find so offensive.  And those conversations changed me, they informed me, and I started taking on her cause, same as my cause, having understood that they are one and the same.  That is what talking about the issue does.  Calling people names or getting worked up in such a way that the conversation cannot move forward, and so that new potential allies are missed because the questions are too offensive for you, does no one any good.

You cannot build a stronger coalition if you are not willing to talk.


The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
You cannot talk...
...if you are banned from the conversation.

I feel kind of sorry for your friend Adrianne, though.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Were it only something that happened 30 years ago
The thing is, trans people are still being marginalized by many subcommunities in the larger queer community.

[ Parent ]
We are (sorta) having a conversation in the "webosphere."

This is the way bloggers talk to each other. He made all of his comments in the blogosphere, and I'm responding in the blogosphere.

Seriously, I actually do actually know people who have tried to engage Aravosis in exactly the conversations you're talking about, and they got no where. From what others tell me, he is a very opinionated person -- I can't tell you that from personally trying to engage him.

But, my job isn't, by definition of being a blogger, to engage him personally. If "we" are engaging each other (and by "we," it's probably just me engaging him), then it's in the blogosphere that he's made all of his comments.

Frankly, that is a free speech consequence for him expressing his opinions on trans people in the blogosphere -- having other bloggers respond in the blogs they write at.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
That's not a call for dialogue...
...because Aravosis deleted comments from people who disagreed with him, and banned them from the "dialogue."

You seem to think that the people who are not acting in good faith are Aravosis' trans critics (and their cis friends) -- nothing could be further from the truth.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Go ahead, call him out
on his blog for his consistent mistreatment of anyone in our leadership who is not a gay man. (Not that he refrains from nasty, personal attacks on gay men who, in his sole judgment, deserve it...)

Then you'll be banned from commenting, after your comments are deleted, just like I was.

I'm not the hollering type, as you know. But it's impossible to converse with someone who cuts the mike, as O'Reilly demonstrates so well on HIS stage.

But wait, there's more!


[ Parent ]
Exactly!
I was banned and I wasn't even arguing.  I simply asked for a proper correction.   On his blog, John posted this:

It's over, folks. A lot of us have been saying that if the Human Rights Campaign, the largest gay civil rights group in Washington, were to pull its attendance from next week's DNC $1,000 a person gay fundraiser, then the fundraiser would effectively be dead. Well, HRC just pulled out as a result of the White House's homophobic DOMA brief in which they equated gay marriage to incest.
 

You can see where Huffington Post linked to the story with the above here... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

Shortly after Huffpo posted the link, Aravosis changed his post.  So when you click to go to AmericaBlog this is what you read:

It's over, folks. A lot of us have been saying that if Marty Rouse, the Human Rights Campaign's National Field Director, were to pull his attendance from next week's DNC $1,000 a person gay fundraiser, then the fundraiser would effectively be dead. Well, HRC official Marty Rouse just pulled out as a result of the White House's homophobic DOMA brief in which they equated gay marriage to incest.

All I wanted was a proper correction considering it was being linked from several sites.  I feel that facts matter.  I asked in the comments if he could please make a reference that the post had been updated, and I got banned lol.  



[ Parent ]
To most people, they do
I feel that facts matter
To most people, they do - but the Aravosisistic wing of the LGB(T) movement (and in this wing I include both the individuals of the type as well as the organizational ones, such as HRC) long has been able to get by via making up their own facts, ignoring the facts that disprove their fake facts, and creating a self-perpetuating cottage industry that is able to project the ultimate fake fact to the non-LGB(T) world: that it speaks for all LGB(T) people.

>^..^<

[ Parent ]
I totally agree with you in theory.
...but in practice, Aravosis has been known to  delete comments by people that disagree with him, and resist any advances towards patient dialogue;  Given that he tends to view disagreement with his particular perspective as evidence of bad faith or malintent, nothing suggests that he'll listen to us.

[ Parent ]
So that's where my comments went...
Strange thing is the first comment that disappeared (after showing up in the comments list) wasn't anti-Aravosis, it was just pro-gender transgressors.  Go figure.

[ Parent ]
now you're being way too pragmatic
could it be that he is just as uninformed about that segment of our community as straights are to the gay community as a whole?

communication isn't the order of the day with certain blenders, who come here just to ruin an otherwise fine topic with their shrill, misdirected vitriol.  this excellent site doesn't deserve it, and aravosis doesn't deserve it either.  

The gays stole my lunch money


[ Parent ]
Here is main point for Aravosis and all other cisgendered, transbigoted privileged assholes
The fight for GLB rights and the fight for Transgender rights are the same fight, because, at the most basic, they are rooted in the fight for people other than cisgendered, straight (white, wealthy) men to have a sexuality and a gender identity and not be punished or shamed for it.

Not to mention it's just the right goddam thing to do.

Go forth and converse.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
Cisgendered?
Let me just say that I love a good debate and from a historical perspective I understand where some of the riffs have developed over the last 80 plus years in the LGBT movement. I have read about the Daughters of Bilitis, the Mattachine Society and some of the very first groups ever organized in the US. There is a great book by Eric Marcus callled "Making History, The Struggle for Gay and Lesbian Equal Rights 1945-1990" Yeah, I know even the title says a lot, it is an older book but a great reference about our collective history.

There has always been a certain amount of animosity between the L's the G's the B's and the T's. We all know this. When I start to tune out of a debate is when someone describes a whole group of our community as "cisgendered, transbigoted, privileged assholes". Cisgendered is not even a word that gay men identify with but one created by people to single them out in a way that I personally find offensive and derogatory especially when used in this context. Not all white gay men are privileged, nor are they transphobic, lumping them in this category serves no purpose to a greater dialogue.

Name calling for the sake of name calling is just that. Where would any L, G, B or T be without all of our collected efforts? I have seen many comments on here about gay white men that really cross the line with the vitriol behind them.

If we are truly all in the same fight then singling out one specific group like this does not do our movement any good at all but only serves to further divide our cause.  


[ Parent ]
um, as a note
Cisgender is, simply, people who are not transgender.

A non transperson is not "straight". They are cis.

So if you find it offensive to be called "not trans", Can we simply call you trans instead?

I ask because every time I note that under some constructions, transgender includes all the GLBT populations, I get a lot of flak for it and so I do not reappropriate other's identities for them.

In short, you don't identify with cis-, its simply what you are (not who you are).

IT's not singling you out, either. All it means, its only purpose and value, is to denote someone who is not trans.

Just like straight is not gay.

And when people speak about gay men who happen to be white, they do so because that group of people is typically more privileged. They are NOT as privileged as a straight man, but they are absolutely more privileged than a transwoman of color.

Withn my own heritage, I've been subject to attack because of my privilege, and the fact that I am able to "pass for white".  I can.  ANd I do.  And I know that I do have that privilege (hell, I was once capable of using all the privilege of a white, straight man.  But I knew I had that privilege, because I wasn't.).

ANd historically, it has been those relatively few white, gay men that have made the deals and undercut our rights, and they do so using the same transphobic arguments that John Avarosis uses, whcih are little more than minor variations on the same things said about white gay men.

I realize this doesn't make how you feel any less hurt for being grouped in a category that you don't feel you belong in.

But it one based predominantly on history, in response to current words and actions.

Just as our mutual fight for rights goes on, so does the fight for solidarity.

Rather than letting the hurt bother you, why not apologize for possibly having misspoke, and ask what you can do to help more?


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I would add for clarification
That it is a relatively new (approximately 15 years or so-if that can be considered relatively new) phrase in the sexuality lexicon, so one should be forgiven if they do not know what it means and becomes confused.  

From my reading on the post by travelingman.rick it was more in reference to the "trans bigoted, white privileged assholes" part of the post, with the added confusion on the word cisgendered.  And he would be correct that the automatic assumption and classification of individuals via their typed words as those things does a huge disservice to all involved.  Most importantly, how can one tell when addressing someone on line whether they are WHITE Privileged? You certainly can't tell by the words they use.  And, if someone is less informed on the issue, why chastise them and call them names for their mistakes, pressing them to apologize because they didn't KNOW the words you prefer to hear.  Why not politely explain what it is that is wrong with the phrase or word, and then answer the basic question put forth?  Educating someone in a positive manner is much more effective then making them defensive and thus ruining a perfectly good teaching moment.  If we can't teach those who show a willingness to question and learn, simply because they are ignorant of a situation that is different than theirs, then we have no hope for those who oppose us without question.  Sometimes offense is seen where none was intended.  Gently pointing that out is more effective then the club them method.  When people fear getting slammed for not knowing the "correct" way to ask or phrase a question, they are less likely to look for the answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

This link gives the short history of the word, which I believe was covered a while back by a very informative diary here on PHB.  I do not recall if it was authored by Autumn or someone else here.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
um...
I still find it offensive to be described as such. It is no different that for a trans person to say do not refer to me as pre-op or do not define me as the gender I am from. If I were to do it anyway.... that is not acceptable no more than to lump all white gay men into this category. Just admit that you have issues with gwm and leave it at that, but to lump everyone into one category is offensive to me. To call me CIS is offensive when it is a made up name and not an identity that I choose it is offensive. This is done because it is easy for you and rather than to have a dialogue you choose to dump us all into one category as the enemy and that is what I find offensive. Don't put words into my mouth and do not fucking pretend that you are any more righteous than me, because when you use this language it only serves to distance us from each other and offends me. It is no different than if I started calling you a tranny... I would think that would be offensive.

What I would say to you is why don't you apologize for lumping all gay white men into a category that is incorrect? Obviously for you it is acceptable to just call all gay white men bigots and Cis and whatever name you want to call them. That is offensive to me. Why don't you apologize to me? Oh wait I get it, I have no right to be offended by your bigotry. you are beyond reproach...It is the gwm like me who is the one stepping on your rights...we just need to slink of into the corner and keep our happy mouth shut.

Do you not see how offensive that is? How would you like it if you were so summarily dismissed?


[ Parent ]
Ok, first off
Cis is not an identity.

As I noted earlier, cis is simply an easier way of saying non-trans that is far more effective.

So your argument on the basis of that being such is failed, irrational, and illogical.

So you are aware, "gay" as pertaining to homosexuals is a made up word.  Indeed, gay itself is a made up word. So it fails there, as well.

As I said, would you prefer to be defined as trans?  You didn't answer that. THere is only one other option (intersex) thus far, so you could also choose that one.  I'm open to such.

But if you are not transgender, and you are not intersex, then, well, you are cissexual, and that carries the implication that your gender, in its identity and its expression, has remained constant and inflexible.

Tha is not a category for the enemy -- its merely one many fall into, much like Christian, or Black, or White, or Californian or American.

Do you consider an of those equally insulting?

See how your argument regarding its use fails?  Its made up, its emotional reaction to being "not trans".  You want to give it greater meaning and wider use than it has -- it has noting to do with being an enemy.

That said, it distances us from each other only as much as your being homosexual and my being heterosexual distances us.  Are you going to say that I don't benefit from Heterosexual privilege?  Cause I won't say that -- but I'm at least willing to know that I have it, instead of making up some damn fool excuse for pretending to be insulted by a term that's academically and socially sound just because you want to turn it into demonization in order to defend your view.

As a note, if you were to start calling me a tranny, you would, in fact, be furthering the very division you speak of -- not because you would be insulting me (I call myself a tranny all the time (even here) and am not insulted by it) but because you would be using the term that means the opposite of cis.

SO, again, I have to ask you:  Are you not cis?  If so, then are you inter- or trans-?  Pick one.  Your choice.

I did not lump all gay white men bigots.  I said they were privileged.  There is a significant difference. Perhaps you should look into that. Not did I call all gay white men cis (indeed, I know many trans white men, and work with one nearly daily).

I wont apologize to you because your attempt to demonize a term merely because you don't like it by adding in additional to it fails on multiple levels.  You are saying "I am a white person, don't call me white". Major error.

If you'd like to demonstrate my bigotry, please, go right ahead.  Otherwise, I will directly call that statement a lie, and label you a liar as a result.

I could do the same with me being beyond reproach -- I've never known anyone who would say that about me (especially given that I reproach myself fairly regularly). But Once is enough.

"gwm like you"? Given your reaction in this post, well, yeah. Only "stepping" isn't an effective descriptive.

Crapping is more accurate.

So, in answer to your last two questions, No, I do  not, for th reasons noted above, and why do you think you are getting treated this way?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Cis...a trans reference to gwm...
that is how I percieve it. Does that make it accurate? Maybe not but that is my perception. Perception and reality are two very different things. Based on the comments I have seen posted here I find this terminology offensive, period. If you have a problem with that I would think that you would make an effort to understand where that comes from rather that to berate me.

CIS is not a terminology that any gay man uses to self identify. It is something that has been made up to lump all GWM's into a category...and based on what I have seen here in the comments it is not a positive thing. I am sick and tired of being told that because of my white gay privileged here that somehow I am better off when I have faced the same demons you have. A bruise is a bruise, a blow is a blow, and whether we are g.l.b. or t they all hurt the same.


[ Parent ]
Not really...
its not a trans reference.  Its an academic one derived predominantly from women's studies.

Just saying.

And you continue to perceive it that way despite the consistent, multiple explanations of its meaning offered you.  Wouldn't that qualify as wilful ignorance?

I do understand where it comes from, as pointed out earlier.  An irrational sense of its meaning that bears no relationship to the reality of such.

You have had your choices, and you persist in not only making one, but in holding fast to something despite the evidence and information you now have to the contrary.

Its not intended, AGAIN to be an identity.  That's three times.  Since its not meant as an identity, why would any gay man use it to self identify?

knock knock  Anyone there?

It is not a negative thing, nor is it a positive thing.  Its a totally unrelated to positive or negative thing.

(wow -- three times and I'm still saying the same things in different ways).

You've faced down the same demons I have?  REALLY?

Cool -- then you know what it feels like to have gay men decide that your life isn't worth as much as theirs for the purpose of legislative strategy.

Wonderful.

Then you've been called faggot when you aren't gay.  You've been subjected to homelessness not because of your sexual orientation but because your money wasn't good enough when you stopped dressing like a man.

You've been told by a white gay doctor to go to a different clinic because he doesn't treat your kind here -- its too difficult.

You get to have your entirety of existence validated by a therapist who charges you to do so, just so you can get the appropriate drugs to be abe to express yourself as a human being properly.

That is Awesome.  Welcome to being trans.  At least you answered my question:  you are trans.

How goes your transition?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
One wonders why...
anyone would even bother to try to have a dialogue. Obviously you have all of the answers. It is not enough to say I find it offensive when...because you have excuses to continue in the establishment of using verbiage that I find offensive. It is ok if you deem it so...yeah that makes it okay and no manner in my protestations you continue to use it. I am the moron who does not get it, but it is still OK just because YOU think it is?

I am a gay man who happens to be white who was battered, beaten, abused sexually and who survived. In my opinion all gay men and lesbians are gender benders at some level, when I get pissed is when I am dumped into one category and everyone thinks it is ok to pretend that it is OK to have that opinion. Stop calling all gay men cis....it is offensive to gay men, I don't care how you define it.

Personally I was betrayed by a doctor and my sexuality was divulged to my company. I was later laid off by said company. Yeah that white privilege served me really well then...Just because one is white does not mean that they too have not had their fair share of problems in the real world. The sooner the t's stop pretending that they are somehow worse off and accept that we have all had problems the sooner we can get beyond all this.


[ Parent ]
Ok, that's it. Nice is over.
Its not offensive at all -- or at least no more than calling gay men "gay men" is offensive to them.

It may offend you because, in your own words,

In my opinion all gay men and lesbians are gender benders at some level

Which means that to you all gay men and lesbians are trans.  In which case the original comment could not possibly have been directed at you because you are not cis, you are trans, and therefore you wouldn't be offended by it.

So make up your mind.

It is not me that says so, either.  That's the meaning. YOU are the one attaching some sort of emotional significance to it and claiming offense. ANd you are doing so despite 3 explanations of what it means to you.

All of which were done before you attempt to appropriate trans lives.

I will make this really simple:  get over your wilful ignorance.  until you do, you will only ever run into the sort of frustration you are feeling.

why did you call yourself a moron?  I never did.  I save that for our mutual opponents (and I usually am far more creative).

You lied again about what I said, as well.  I never said all gay men are cis.

Head back to John's place.  You'll find that the requirements for knowledge about complex subjects and privilege are far lower than here, and be much happier.

I don't give a rat's ass what you've been through -- I know people who have it better and people who have it worse.  And I know that allof us have different amounts that we can take, so what I can deal with and what you can deal with are not likely to be the same.

But you said you've gone through what I have. I would never say such a thing.  I don't know you anymore than you know me, so I'm not about to leap to conclusions about my experience as a straight transwoman of multiple races in comparison to your experience as a gay man who is white.

I just dealt in my examples with ones pertaining to being trans. Would you like me to get into the racial stuff?  The religious stuff? The ways in which I had it better than you when I faked being a white straight man for a few decades?

Because I am aware of all those things.

You still aren't, and you are reacting poorly to having it pointed out to you.

You are right -- I do have all the answers when it comes to this subject.  It took me a long time to learn them, too, but I do not have all the answers to the lesbian experience, or the bisexual experience, or the gay man experience.

Which is why I take the time to learn, and listen, instead of scream offensive when someone decides to call me something I don't like.

I've read and thought about each of your posts.  You haven't given me the same courtesy.  

Normally I reserve this for me, a little sticky note on my screen, but now I'll give it to you:

Get over yourself

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I am not screaming anything
here. My only attempt is to exchange in a real dialogue here. When you dismiss me and tell me to run back to AmericaBlog that is not exactly attempting to exchange in a dialogue. I have just as much a right to be here as anybody else.

If you look at the context in each reference to CIS gay white males that has been made within this post it is almost exclusively written as a snide description and in a context that I think is meant in a derogatory way.

I don't give a whit what definition you or anyone else wants to call it. Why not just use gay men? I never said I have gone through exactly what you have, I merely pointed out that we have shared experiences in the real world that are similar. I would never expect that I have the exact same shared experiences as you. What I do have are experiences that have given me a real point of view when it comes to LGBT rights. It's nice to know you don't give a rats ass about that, it says a lot more about you than it does about me.

For the record, no I am not trans. I am just a guy who happens to be gay, white and obviously the enemy in here. What I find most offensive is the implication that because I am gay, and white is that somehow we are made out to be the enemy. Go back and look at each post that uses the words CIS, and white gay male, read them and then come back and tell me that I am making it up.

We are not the enemy here, when we are summarily dismissed and told to go elsewhere that sounds pretty unwelcome to me and I would hope that one would think twice before dismissing such a large segment of our community. I would never dismiss you and tell you to find another movement or to go somewhere else, yet you obviously take no issue with doing that yourself.

I am sick and tired of reading diatribes about the evil gay white man and how we are the problem. I am sick of the assumptions that all gay white men are better off than anyone else, that is a generalization and yes, I find that offensive because we all have a story to tell. From your response I can only arrive at the conclusion that you are not interested in that story but are only interested in being angry and holding me in disdain.

My desire is that rather than take that track would be for us to really exchange in a dialogue without telling the other that we have no place on any blog. We have all experienced discrimination on some level, is it not better to share our commonality rather than to just dismiss the other?


[ Parent ]
Ok, one more try

Now that you've had a break, let's go back for a second, ok?

I dismissed you earlier because you ignored what I was saying. Entirely. And yes, you can be here (right is pushing it, its private property and both of us are here at the whim of the site owner and moderators). I didn't say you couldn't be, despite your inference that I did in making that statement.

I explained, multiple times, that the meaning you were ascribing to the word was not accurate, and that as a result, your reasoning for taking offense was not accurate, and yet you chose to ignore that and continue to make that claim that it was offensive, ostensibly based on the same premise which was shown to be in error.

Contextually, there was nothing more snide and derogatory than saying that someone was black or hispanic, rich or poor, gay or straight.  Are you saying that in those same statements, gay was used derogatorily and with intent to be snide?  Because if you are not, then you are being intellectually dishonest and not interested in exchanging in real dialog but something else.

You prove my point that you are not reading my posts, but only skimming, because again you say "why not use gay men" when I have already explained, at least twice, that there are trans gay men -- the purpose of stating it that way is to create a distinction between you and the transfolk, since gay men who are trans do not generally act int he manner so described earlier; only gay men who are cis do.

You said:

I am sick and tired of being told that because of my white gay privileged here that somehow I am better off when I have faced the same demons you have.

I simply established that you haven't, despite your claims. And, as a result I have had experiences that give me a real point of view when it comes to LGBT rights. Precisely equal in terms of reality to you.

I'm honest.  Its a failing this days, I realize, but yeah -- it does say a lot about me - and as I noted, you don't particularly care about mine, either.

ANd I have read each of them  Again.  You are making this up. See my point earlier -- in order for that to hold water, given what I've already established previously, you would have to say the same thing about gay.  Or white.  Or men.

Enemy?  No.  But then I've learned that Dobson isn't an enemy either - and that there is some sense of prejudice and othering there when we call them such.  He is an opponent, and when it comes to what is overwhelmingly white, wealthy, gay men who are not trans and their approach to trans issues historically (and even today), they they are also opponents.

Sorry.  Its the truth.  Don't bitch at me if it stings, go bitch at them for doing it.  Start with the guy who started the HRC, and work your way to the one that stands in front of it right now.

So your obviously the enemy tack is wholly fallacious, and since its the exact sort of commentary that we've come to loathe and despise from one of those self same people (john), well, of course I'm going to tell you to head over there.

I've been banned.  ANd I was far nicer back then.

WHat assumptions?  As a matter of course, you are.  You are white, so you have white privilege.  You are a man, so you have male privilege. You are non-trans, so you have non-trans (cis) privilege. Those aren't assumptions.  Those are simple, basic realties -- especially to a transwoman of color.

Privilege doesn't make you evil.  I have female privilege (a concept that pisses people off). I have "passing privilege".  But neither of them come close in overall degree within society at large to the privilege you have.

Sorry.

And Of Course its a generalization!  So is your insistence that we are saying "all gay white men are better off than anyone else". Its a generalization, too.  Hello?  Hypocrisy much?

To share our commonality would be wonderful -- if we did indeed share it -- perhaps you are forgetting the context of this entire thread?  John Avarosis is being a fucking prick and transfolk are sick of it.

The man has called for us to be sacrificed in order to gain rights for the non trans portion of the population. We really don't like that.

Context, sir, would require you to be aware of that when talking to transfolk about how to explain, describe and express their lives and their expereinces.

Context, sir, would have as a start your not dismissing three of my responses to you telling you that cis is not an attack, and yet you stepped out of context to claim that it is far more times, despite such.

Context, sir, says that you don't walk into a thread and disrespect our terminology as if it was meaningless while ascribing a meaning to it that doesn't have.

Context, sir, is not a place you want to go with a sociologist who deals in it in ways you likely haven't even encountered yet.

Context, sir, is not calling this stuff "tripe" because you leap to a conclusion without evidence and then deny validity to explanations given you.

Context, sir, is not tuning out something that has cis- in it just because you are uncomfortable with a word based on your lack of familiarity with it.

Shall I go on? I can, you see.  I can demonstrate how even when I'm not being nice I'm still being kind because I could readily establish the ways in just your posts in this thread in which you have demonstrated transphobic ideas and understandings, yet I don't because I remember that you started ut saying something to the effect of you fight for inclusion and that you keep finishing with commentary intended to convey a sense of looking at commonality instead of difference.

Wonderful!

Go yell at John for being a fuckwit then.

Please.

And then come back and read again, with the knowledge that cis is NOT a freaking derogatory term and that you are indeed making all this up, and consider apologizing.

But don't apologize.  There's no need.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
When the word is followed by derogotory terms
it is contextually dishonest to pretend that it is not meant as a slam. When I read through the threads Cis is usually followed by adjectives like, white, privileged, asshole...when I read that it shuts down the dialogue. That is my point.

I am not going to apologize because I have an opinion any more than I would expect you to apologize for your opinions expressed here, that is a part of the debate. When the debate looses objectivity by one side attacking the other that does us both a disservice.

I explained in my posts why I thought the use of the term was offensive, I don't need to hear why you think that your definition is acceptable, rather than attack me and the fact that I am offended by the usage of the term one would think that you would actually attempt to understand why I find it offensive in the first place. Yet at each turn I am told that I just don't get it. Maybe I don't, but as long as I see that word used and followed by adjectives like asshole and fuckwad then I stand behind the fact that I find it offensive.

How would you feel if every time you read the word transgender it was followed up with asshole and fuckwad? I would never stoop to that level. I didn't make that up I read it here on this thread, this is the second time I have read these kind of comments on this blog and yes I am allowed to find it offensive when it is used in a context that I think is inappropriate. Tell me how is it that a term that was developed from Woman's studies is supposed to automatically make it acceptable to use it in the way it is tossed around on here, especially when it is followed by adjectives that are not complimentary? If you prefer the term CIS why use it in a fashion that is offensive?

Not one sentence of your entire post addresses how it makes me feel when I read comments that attempt to malign all gay white men, only an attempt to tell me how out of context I am, and to accuse me of making stuff up. It is that kind of blindness that prevents our movement from ever hearing the other sides opinion and having an understanding of how the other side feels. If you want me to take your feelings seriously stop pretending that my feelings don't count, or that my impression of what I have read here is just ignorant. I can read. In almost ever circumstance that the words CIS are used it is followed by adjectives that I find offensive.

You mean, a privileged gay man who is sexist and transphobic? **GASP** Tell me it's not true!! **faints onto couch**

Here is main point for Aravosis and all other cisgendered, transbigoted privileged assholes

Reading these two quotes makes for a very valid point that in each case the assumption is that gay men are either transphobic or transbigoted, that I find offensive. Regardless of how you frame the definition of CIS when it is used like that and all gay men are maligned as transphobic it does nothing to foster communication and understanding.

For the record I have written John and asked about the intent of the post and whether or not it was his intent to throw the T's under the bus. Did you? Have you tried to dialogue with him? Or is it just easier to come here and malign all gay white cis men as assholes and fuckwads and pricks?


[ Parent ]
Tell ya what...
... you probably don't realize that I pretty much never ask rhetorical questions.

So when you answer my questions (part of the dialog), I'll give you more credit.

You haven't.  Yet I've answered yours, or shown why the argument within the question is irrelevant.

So now you are saying that gay, man, privileged, sexist, and transphobic are all offensive to you?

Well, then perhaps you should look at why they are offensive.

Simple fact -- you have privilege that I don't. You find it offensive that I call you out on it. that is your problem, and your error.

Yes, error.  You might as well be complaining about being called white by a black person.

As already established in the record (which you are skimming not reading), um, yes, I have.  Several times.  John is not interested in such.

I gotta love how you claim the above quotes -- both are accurate, and yet you immediatley claim they refer to all gay men.  The second qupte is rather explicit, and the first one is obvious sarcasm.

Wow.  Pretense with me will always fail.

Your prejudice blinds you.  WHen you recover from it, let me know.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
FYI
Cis doesn't just mean gay white men. It means anybody that isn't trans, regardless of sexual orientation, sex, race, or anything else. That's all it means.

[ Parent ]
And for that matter...
...not all gay white men are cis, either.

[ Parent ]
They are NOT as privileged as a straight man, but they are absolutely more privileged than a transwoman of color.
And not a one of us has any rights....

[ Parent ]
and that makes your response ok?


[ Parent ]
Yes.
Not having rights doesn't interfere with having privilege.

Indeed, it tends to make it worse.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Oh god, get the smelling salts
Someone points out a certain type of privilege in an argument for inclusivity and others simply must cry about being personally attacked. Here, have a kleenex.

Unless you're transbigoted asshole who lets your privilege blind you to the fact that transgender people need to be included in our fight, then you weren't the one being referred to, now were you? Or maybe Blenders calling out people out on their Stepford gay privilege and advocating more inclusion just hits a little too close to home for your comfort. We don't have problems with Stepford gays for their own sake. Stepford gays need love, too! (I should know; aside from the vagina, I am one.) We have problems with those whose attitude is "Screw you, I got mine." But since you're obviously not one of those types, again, I fail to see what you're so upset about.

Cisgendered is not even a word that gay men identify with but one created by people to single them out in a way that I personally find offensive and derogatory especially when used in this context.

Oh, spare me. You act as though "trannie" and "he-she" AREN'T offensive to Autumn, dyssonance, HappyCat, and other transgender people in our community when they hear that shit hissed at them every time a bigot notices them. Poor you, so put upon by a clinical term! Have another kleenex. You don't like the word "cisgendered" because it points out your privilege within the LGBT community during discussions of transgender issues. I notice all your comments since registering on the 18th are only on posts discussing trans-inclusivity, and they're all the same lady-doth-protest-too-much theme. Funny, as a white, cisgendered, femme-presenting, college-educated, middle-class, straight-passing, HIV-, Stepford lesbian I'm not offended by the idea of examing and checking MY advantages. What's Aravosis's problem with it? What's yours?

Instead of whining about how oppressed you are when someone points out a privilege you happen to share, try acknowledging it and using it to benefit those more vulnerable than you. God, you're as bad as those "But men are so oppressed, too!" types who troll feminist sites. Get a grip. Accept the privilege you were born with and use it to help everyone instead of circling the wagons to defend aan exclusive, sexist, transphobic arse like Aravosis. That's what real progressives are supposed to do.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
you know what...
I have busted my ass ever since I came out to include everyone who was disadvantaged. So when I read this tripe and someone who is a bigot about gwm wants to pretend that I have never stuck up for the t's you know what that shit is offensive to me. Once upon a time I was a facilitator in Detroit at the community center. There was a lesbian who had real issues with a t person in the group, I called her on her issues and read her the riot act for being so crass. So don't talk to me about gwm's never standing up for the t's cause this gwm has. Stop pretending that all of us are ass holes and stop lumping us into one category.  

[ Parent ]
Some of your best friends are trans, too!
It's sad to see that someone who considers himself an ally of trans people can feel so entitled to shit on them as much as you've done in this thread.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Joe Sudbay & I
were both panelist at a DNC Conference in August of 2007. I mentioned concern over some of the language used at a-blog when referring to traspeople, particulary around the Coulter slurs.

I offered to help them on the language issue, gave my biz card - never heard back.


[ Parent ]
Aravosis deletes negative comments
In 2007, when this was all going on, John Aravosis would routinely delete negative comments from people who questioned his increasingly offensive rhetoric and tried to, as you say, "call him out on this issue on his very own blog."

Lots of trans people were banned from AmericaBlog, myself included.

Aravosis will not talk with the trans community. He will talk about the trans community, and against the trans community.

In short, what you suggest has been tried, and he's told us all to go fuck off, and banned us from his blog after deleting our replies.

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Good, the circular firing squad is back.
John Aravosis has done more to drive LGBT rights in the last few weeks than most of you have done in your lifetimes.  But what an ass, huh?

Driving Miss Crazy
John Aravosis has done more to drive LGBT rights in the last few weeks....
Yes - over the cliff and into Marriage Derangement Syndrome Canyon.

I'll hop out of that burning car whilst still on the road, thank you.

>^..^<


[ Parent ]
Blenders Off Base
Seizing on this post to make an argument that Aravois is anti-transgender seems way off-base to me and unmerited.  On its face, I can't take that away from the post at all -- I think he's dead on.  

So, maybe there was an issue on inclusion with ENDA in the past?  Yeah - and JA wasn't the only one (See Barney Frank). I think he's there now, but you all want to dredge it up and pillory him?

And I for one think his blog and reporting on this have been superb in creating pressure on the administration and a vital part of the LGBT online community.


[ Parent ]
John Aravosis' "issues" with trans folks
Here's one of Aravosis' "superb" rants that I like to dredge up:

"It is simply not p.c. in the gay community to question how and why the T got added on to the LGB, let alone ask what I as a gay man have in common with a man who wants to cut off his penis, surgically construct a vagina, and become a woman. I'm not passing judgment, I respect transgendered people and sympathize with their cause."


[ Parent ]
Aravosis on board with inclusion?
Has he disavowed his Salon article?

No, I didn't think so.

(PS: John Aravosis doesn't believe that the T belongs in the LGBT community, so who exactly are you calling "a vital part of the LGBT online community"?)

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
Evidence, please?
Seriously.  I've done a lot to drive those rights over my lifetime.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
You don't know anything about what the posters here have done
Autumn Sandeen, for example, is a tireless advocate for the people who John Aravosis fights against.

And who are you exactly? What have you done for the trans community lately?


http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
well...
Since coming to PHB and reading for some time, I've realized how large the rift is between the LGB and T.  

One thing to also remember, some members of the L, G, B and T will throw another "under the bus" (they don't care about each other.)

Ls don't like G, Gs don't like L.  LGs don't care for B.  and so on.  

I'm not saying this is right, nor offering excuses.  Don't shoot me for trying to offer what I see.  But what I see is a movement that's disjointed and bickering amongst themselves a lot... we should work together more.

Keep up the good work, spread your message of inclusiveness to the point that is covers the hateful separatism.  


....and don't forget the kids...
Who don't know yet who/what they are? Please.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


[ Parent ]
well, one thing to remember
is that for a transperson to be a trans activist, they have to advocae n behalf of a group that is incredibly diverse.

Straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, black, white, transvestite, crossdresser, transsexual, genderqueer, androgyne, genderless, older, younger, children (many of whom are simply gay but classified psychologically as trans in youth and subject to reparative therapy that is still ethical), transgender, butch, femme, bull, masculine, feminine, flaming, and on and on and on.

If we leave out any of them, then we aren't fighting for transrights.  Doesn't matter who it is.

So from our perspective, the rift isn't between LGB and T, really. Because we are LGB.

And more.

So what we are seeing is GLB people leaving other GLB people behind.  And we aren't down with that.

We won't leave the GLB behind. So when people speak of LGBT, we want them to remember to speak to the T -- which all the above groups.

We are everyone.

And we cannot treat a failure to help everyone as a victory.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Well, yeah.

We have so much diversity within the transgender community -- you didn't even go into all of the other places where minority statuses intersect trans (as well as lesbian, gay, and bisexual) in this comment, which include (but are not limited to):

- race
- disabilities
- veteran status
- age
- height/weight

Etc., etc., etc.

As a rule, I like to look for commonalities, not differences, because the LGBT community -- because humanity -- has a great deal of diversity.

I have to admit though, this diary isn't one where I highlighted commonalities, unless one considers where two public figures have both not apologized for their community related failures looking for commonalities.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
my view
is that for a person to be a LGBT activist, they have to advocate n behalf of a group that is incredibly diverse.

Straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, black, white, transvestite, crossdresser, transsexual, genderqueer, androgyne, genderless, older, younger, children (many of whom are simply gay but classified psychologically as trans in youth and subject to reparative therapy that is still ethical), transgender, butch, femme, bull, masculine, feminine, flaming, and on and on and on.

If we leave out any of them, then we aren't fighting for human rights.  Doesn't matter who it is.

(--Sorry I had to copy and change a few things there to suit my personal situation on all of this.--)

I left this blog comment section on Friday kinda fuming.  I felt that I had lost my drive to care about trans issues at the moment.  I went to Pride in Houston and had a great time, got to see and talk to all of the different people there... different genders, orientations, ethnic backgounds... rich, poor, homeless.  

I realized that I haven't lost my drive to advocate for equal rights for all under the LGBT umbrella... I had lost my drive to argue on blogs about it.

And so, there it is.  My comments always seem lost here and this is a tough crowd to please, for sure.  Seems like it's more of a thing us gay white cisgendered men should avoid?  (I don't feel cisgendered -- feel like a gender variant.. if I'm allowed that?)

I don't feel like much good is coming out of blogging anymore... I'm gonna take my action to the real world and work on being a better advocate there.

And yes, even though I'm a gay white cisgendered gay male.. that will include transgendered issues too.


[ Parent ]
I'm sincerely
just sick of this bullshit from both sides.

If there was a rational conversation I might consider participating.


A peck from Beck?
That sounds remarkably like Glenn Beck's incessant plea for 'a little common sense' - which he never explicitly dicloses that he defines as 'rightwing christianist nutcasery'.

A plea for

a rational conversation

Defined as 'listening to what the great, straight-acting white men say should be done, particularly about those icky trannies - and we great, straight-acting white men say that, for the good of everyone, that issue should never be broached in polite conversation'?

I'll pass.

The oppressors have gotten to establish the parameters of the discussion for the last time.  I hope you all enjoyed 2007 while you had the chance.  Never again.

>^..^<


[ Parent ]
phhhhhhhht.
It's even more discouraging when a person who has no idea of anothers family or personal experience reacts with a comparison to right wing media homophobes.

So now, I'm a straight-acting white man and an oppressor of trans issues. . .Thanks.

You've made my point.


[ Parent ]
I don't care who you are or what you are
but what you pecked is what it is.

>^..^<

[ Parent ]
Thanks
for the vile and insensitive response.

Those of us who DO care and fight for . . .oh let's us my trans Father as an example. . .are all the more encouraged by your reply.

There are no additional words that I can add that are appropriate.


[ Parent ]
Well, note that if you *did* care...
you wouldn't say things that offend.

(and you should know that having a gay, err, trans friend or family member is no defense. I mean, really.)

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
gee wizz I'd get the trap door if I responded to you that way.
Just over the past few weeks we get told that if we come out as offensive to the trans part of this community in our posts that we would get the trapdoor no questions asked or answered.  But you can respond to people in the most demeaning way and nary a peep from the blog mistress or the diarist.

First you tell me that it is too offensive to have the conversation,  then you tell me I'm like the Bush Criminal Junta,  and then you insinuate here that it's "the great, straight-acting white men say that, for the good of everyone, that issue should never be broached in polite conversation."  You do nothing but call names of the people who are actually wanting and willing to have a conversation in which they can ask those questions that might just offend your sensibilities.

I have to tell you there is NOTHING polite about your part of this conversation.  Continue to drive the wedge, continue to stop the conversation, and continue to lay blame on people you don't even know, and you ask or wonder why there is no progress on healing this rift in our community.  

Lately I have been wondering how exactly is our community any different than the right wing homophobes we fight against?  Anyone with a different view is now all of a sudden a republican Theo-con to be compared with the inane and insane Glenn Beck.  I really just don't get why our own hypocrisy is acceptable, but that of others is not.  We surely are becoming them.  What a sad state of affairs.  

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
This has been typical.
The ironic part is that this is a diary demanding an apology because of insensitivity towards the trans community.

I have been the subject of such vitriol over the past few days, but if I had said anything even remotely like this I would have been booted without explanation.


[ Parent ]
I've got the perfect solution for you
If you don't like it, then don't post here. If you do decide to keep posting here, don't intentionally pour gasoline on the fire and then whine about getting burned.

[ Parent ]
right, megan
it's only the sound of screeching trolls that matters here, huh?  grow up and don't give people advice you're not qualified to give.  

The gays stole my lunch money

[ Parent ]
and, sadly, you will feel that again
each and everytime you state, intentionally or not, that trans priorities are of less importance (ie, not equal to in every way) than cis priorities.

When employment and housing are justifiably more important to the wider community than marriage, that's not merely a trans issue. That a harsh, cold fact of life.

And there needs to be some awareness of history that joins that -- especially since we are painfully aware that that same history still comes forward in to the present.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Our community differs in that...
... we are not allied in what should be a common struggle.

Instead, we use parts of our community to make deals for the other parts.

And what's interesting is that far worse is said about our opponents (those who oppose and seek to oppress all of us, without difference).

It is not hard to make sure that everything we do includes everyone.

What's hard is getting people to realize that historically, transfolk (which includes GLB folks) get shafted by the cisfolk. In order to advance the goals of the cisfolk -- at the expense of the GLB folk who are trans.

Now you have a large, dedicated base of transfolk who have been active for 40 years, that have been attacked and demonized by those who cling to old ideas and old prejudices (to include both gay men and lesbian women), and that are tired of it, and will not let it stand.

Especially not from those who they have to help anyway in order to aid all their constituency.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
So yes.
I have come to understand that my experiences, 40 year history of LGBT issues and my family aren't worthy. Certainly my opinion is worthless, and I'm just an oppressor.

So I guess I'll just take my great, straight-acting-white-male-glenn-beck-oppressive ass off of this thread, because it's obvious that there is only one view that is welcome. Any and all other conversation is off the table.


[ Parent ]
Not at all
But have the conversation.

Nor is your experience worthless (white experience was not worthless in the black movement).

However, you must be willing to allow yourself to see the effect of privilege in your words and actions.

What is off the table is sacrificing the T.  COmpletely, utterly, and for any reason.

ANd if you feel that there is a reason, well, then yes, you should step out.

What is off the table is doing something without inclusion of the T.

And again, if you feel, that there is a reason for doing that, then yes, you should step out.

What is off the table is saying you (general you) will come back later. Because that doesn't happen.

So if you feel that's an essential point, then yeah, you should leave the table.

We don't want you to leave.  But those are no longer negotiable.  We are not a bargaining chip.

As for comparatives to Glenn beck, well, I wouldn't even do that to Avarosis.  Beck is, well, capable of Making Rush look positively endearing.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
well, then
Don't put words in peoples mouths, I didn't say that.

[ Parent ]
I didn't put anything into your mouth.
I told you that you should have the conversation.

That your input has value.

That there are three things that are off the table entirely, and if those three things are not acceptable, then do leave the conversation.

If they are all acceptable, then stick around.

I'm aware you didn't make the glenn beck comment -- I was just saying that I wouldn't do it.

So what words did I put in, because I don't see any.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
how about
Well, note that if you did care... (0.00 / 0)
you wouldn't say things that offend.
(and you should know that having a gay, err, trans friend or family member is no defense. I mean, really.)


or

and, sadly, you will feel that again (4.00 / 1)
each and everytime you state, intentionally or not, that trans priorities are of less importance (ie, not equal to in every way) than cis priorities.

Perhaps not exact words, but the implications are there . .that I said something offensive, that I think trans priorities are of less importance.

And to top it off you belittle my Father. Someone who you might just be interested in learning something about.

I quite frankly find it insulting.  


[ Parent ]
I didn't belittle your father
I simply noted that using your father as a shield for your actions isn't something that usually flies in the LGBT community, since far too often our opponents use the same statement to make their actions seem more benign.

Have you found it acceptable to allow someone saying "well I have gay friends" and then vote against prop 8 to go unchallenged?

Your father may be an incredible woman. I don't know.  Its obvious you are proud to have her for a father. I'm thrilled about that -- its better than my children feel about me.

You said you cared.  I said that if you did, you would not say things.

Well, you have.  I'm sorry.  You've consistently stated a position that you find our speaking up, our being angry, over the treatment we've received, to be an annoyance.

That's akin to saying "I wish the gays would just go back into the closet".

Its why we are upset.  And your saying that devalues our anger, devalues our efforts, and essentially implies that we have no reason to be upset.

SO I still haven't put words into your mouth.  I've simply taken what you've said, and shown you what it means.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
where?
Well, you have.  I'm sorry.  You've consistently stated a position that you find our speaking up, our being angry, over the treatment we've received, to be an annoyance.

Again. . .I never said that.


[ Parent ]
Well...
I'm sincerely   (0.00 / 0)
just sick of this bullshit from both sides.

If there was a rational conversation I might consider participating.

good luck with that   (0.00 / 1)

Note that you first characterized the positions as irrational, that its bullshit, and that it can't possibly have value.

Just above.

Yes, you said it was from both sides.  Which actually is even worse.

And in previous threads you've echoed similar sentiments.

Sorry.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Nope
I called bullshit on irrational CONVERSATION not anyones positions, and yes . . .Mudslinging from BOTH sides. Personal attacks and more. "Good Luck with That" Yep, was in reply to someone else asking:

But might I may a small suggestion at the risk of getting my head taken off:

While I understand the anger over the sitaution, maybe a private email and talk betwixt bloggers would have better suited this situation. The way the comments have been going, we are tearing each other apart and I hate it when we do that.

There are definite issues on both sides of the aisle and maybe the parties involved would be better served to work it out private rather than on a public basis where there will be unneccearily ugly things said to each other and the religious right discovers new ways to divide us.

Like I said, just a suggestion.

And I stand by both comments. Apparently the only way to have an exchange of ideas is to agree 100%.

Sorry.


[ Parent ]
Ok, in that case...
... I apologize for making that inference from those particular statements.

Excluding yourself, then, from such (when you could have explained that earlier), how would you characterize what you and I have discussed thus far?

(and let's not go down tot he guy trying to make cis into something bad, shall we?)

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Honestly,
it's been civil, but I feel patronized and insulted. It has not been fruitful, just full of personal attacks and misconceptions.

Good Night.


[ Parent ]
Night ggw59
If its any consolation, I feel similar, lol.

But at least now we can move forward beyond that, since many of the misconceptions are why there were personal attacks -- on both sides.

When doing mitigation work, one usually takes a couple days to let the two sides bitch and man at each other, to get to this point.

From then, you start to build.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
just to say
I'm actually offended by your generalizations.

This has all gotten out of hand :(


[ Parent ]
If it has, to whom shall we lay the responsibility?
Those who have been oppressed, or those who done the oppressing?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Doesn't he know?
What's crazy is that if it wasn't for the T's we wouldn't have a "gay" movement.  Who does he think started Stonewall?

gender benders
the gender benders are far different from transgenders...they were the gay and lesbian who bended the arc of sexuality. Obviously the t's don't even like the L's or the G's because they just want to berate us for not doing enough to include them but just want to hate all of us for not doing enough for them...personally I am sick and tired of this. Especially when I have worked just as hard to be inclusive as they have. Yet I am labeled a white,priveledged queer who is xyz and not deserving of the same rights as they for they have suffered far worse than me.  

[ Parent ]
This is incorrect.
They are transgender.

Do NOT appropriate our history. That will bring wraththe like of which you cannot imagine.

(btw, simple tip:  gender bending is transgender)

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Sorry gotta say it
Aravosis is an opportunistic hack.

"Donate to AmericaBlog. I'm poor and can't afford to pay my mortgage."  Next day... he's talking about his worldwide adventures and privleged life.

And no, John is not a spokesperson of MY gay community and never will be.


The irony is...

"A lot of the discrimination against people who are gay or lesbian is coming less from hostility to a specific sexual orientation as from the expectation of what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman," said Christopher Anders, a legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union who has worked on the anti-discrimination bill for years.

"The more masculine a gay man is, or the more feminine a lesbian is, the less the likelihood of discrimination," Anders said.

"The worry among gay-rights lawyers is that even if there is a statute banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, employers could point to straight-passing gay employees as evidence that they are not discriminating - even if they refused to hire or promote a gay person whose dress or mannerisms did not fit gender stereotypes."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...

Carry the fire. - Paul Kantner


No argument from me, Autumn
If Aravosis wasn't reacting so loudly to the DOMA brief I would have forgotten his blog existed.  

I only started paying attention again because he has a platform and a big mouth and I would love to get some kind of consensus started among LGBTs against instantaneous support of the DNC.  I'm that desperate to hear LGBT revolt against the Party.

Fortunately, he managed to avoid the T controversy he visited upon himself (for the most part).  Every time I checked out his site and posted one of his articles on FB I took a hot shower.

He owes an apology - big time.  It wouldn't hurt him in the least.  He should learn from his errors - just like he wants his President to learn from his mistakes.

Thank you for keeping him on the hook.  He is not removed in my book...but I will use him to advance anti-DNC sentiment among the middle of the road cheerleaders...and each time he does I stick an asterisk next to his name that says (T-bigot, horses ass).


I used to provide a link to Americablog
However I found his posts very negative and one sided.  After he wrote about ENDA last year and about the whole transgender issue I stopped reading his blog completely. He's a sad man who is no different than the anti-gay activists out there.

I also did not know that some lesbian don't consider themselves part of the "gay community".  Being a gay man when I said "gay community" I was always talking about the GLBT community.  From now on I will make an effort to change my language and only refer to the GLBT community.


And in that same vein,
I suggest we refuse to accept the support or votes of any lawmakers who ever said anything in the past that any part of the L, G, B or T objects to.  Never surrender!  Never forget!  Death Before Dishonor!  We don't need your stinkin' help!

Give me 100% purity, or give me.....nothing.


Just a small suggestion
I enjoy reading Americablog and still do. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything John says just like I don't have to agree with everything Autumn says.

But might I may a small suggestion at the risk of getting my head taken off:

While I understand the anger over the sitaution, maybe a private email and talk betwixt bloggers would have better suited this situation. The way the comments have been going, we are tearing each other apart and I hate it when we do that.

There are definite issues on both sides of the aisle and maybe the parties involved would be better served to work it out private rather than on a public basis where there will be unneccearily ugly things said to each other and the religious right discovers new ways to divide us.

Like I said, just a suggestion.


good luck with that
But might I may a small suggestion at the risk of getting my head taken off:



[ Parent ]
Well then I give up
I give up on this conversation. We all have strong opinions but when it all comes across as barking, I tune out.

I won't play the kennel keeper.


[ Parent ]
Don't play kennel keeper.
Play voice of reason.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
No need to wish luck.
Wish for willingness, instead.

Wish for people to stop being insulting.

Its pretty basic, really: stop using the same excuses and reasons that were used in the past against all of us against the T only.

That's the smallest first step.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Recently, I've wondered at the reappearance of links
to the AmericaBlog site in pieces by Pam (without concomitant vitriol, that is).  I've wondered whether that might have had to do with her meeting him at any of the events she attended during the 2008 election season.

[ Parent ]
It is an outstanding suggestion.
And its been offered, many times.

Many, many times.

Without taking anyone's head off, either.

However, there has to be willingness to admit that one can be wrong - and while I and many other activists are willing to admit we can be wrong, we aren't being given any valid reasons.

And from him, we aren't being given the opportunity.

He routinely edits out any transperson's statements -- vitriolic or not -- tha challenges him on his assertions.

He has that right, mind you -- it is his blog, his property.  I don't mind that he does it, in fact.

However, he does not get a free pass just because we can't post on his blog.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Dear Mr. Aravosis
Subject: T inclusion with LGB.

Stonewall Uprising.

You're welcome,

T

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" is so 2006.


Yesterday and the day before...
I was in a really pissy mood.

I won't apologize for what I said.  I will say that a fellow Blender sent me something via email (since my email addy is in my profile) and it reminded me quite strongly of where my head was at.

And made me laugh my ass off in the process.

Thanks :)

In any case, today I am calmer.  Today I am trying to avoid my usual rule which is to follow the second half of the golden rule -- if you say something rude, I will say something rude back since you just asked me to.

Today I will do more than merely listen to what you are saying.  But in return, you must listen to what I am saying.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


...very appropriate... to step back when we feel our own emotions...

become too much a part of our 'civil discourse.'

PS. So can 'you know who' Autumn/Pam come back on the blog now? 



It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


[ Parent ]
Thought Police
Geesh - He was stating facts.  T is different than LGB - and there has been some debate on whether they all go together in one political group.  I think they should all be together - but I'm not going to get histrionic on a guy who doesn't agree completely.  This overreaction does nothing to further the discussion and cheapens genuine "attacks."  
This sounds like a personal grudge that you have against Joe because he offended you.  I understand that and think it's fine to hold those kinds of grudges if you want.  I just don't know if this kind of calling out is really necessary.  Could you not express to him privately your beef and see what his response is?  This public display seems a little extreme to me.  (and let the attacks begin - because it seems like people can't express a dissenting opinion about any issues without being attacked on the threads)

lol
I'm convinced that if Jesse Helms came back from the dead and wanted to support every pro-LGBT piece of legislation because he had had a change of heart in Hell, most of the folks posting here would require that he apologize or abstain from voting.

Until our "community" figures out that we need every single ally we can recruit, we'll continue to remain on the outside with our noses pressed to the glass.

If you want someone to love you unconditionally, get a dog!


[ Parent ]
But ...
There is a difference between incomplete support and partial attack.

[ Parent ]
Please read previous responses.
Its been tried, and no, he deserves it.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Just FYI y'all... a 40th ANNIV of Stonewall was held.
National Gay and Lesbian Task Force:
In honor of the 40th anniversary of Stonewall, the International Court System,
in collaboration with the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force,...
recognized 40 transgender and gender- nonconforming individuals for their contribution toward lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) equality. A recognition ceremony was held June 25 at the Stonewall Inn.

and here is the fb photo album.

tinyurl.com/p57fzg


It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.


Thanks for mentioning that, Orion.
I've noticed that it raises a lot of issues for many in the community, and is excellent for highlighting the prejudices within the T as a result.

(and those that know me off PHB know I'm just as hard on our own as I am on those outside us).

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Remind me, now.
Is NGLTF one of the "good" gay organizations, or one of the evil Mattachine-style "bad" gay orgs?

[ Parent ]
Sorta half and half
Depending on who you talk to :D

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
It has been both
Early on it was as bad as (possibly even worse than) HRC, having as one of its co-chairs Jean O'Leary, the ringleader of one of the more infamous anti-trans events (the anti-trans portion of the 1973 NTC gay pride rally) during the era which saw trans people expunged from the movement .  

By the mid-90s it was out in front on trans-inclusivity (Dear Mr. Stampp Corbin: That's called 'reality'; saying that HRC put the T in LGBT?  That's fantasy.)  

At the moment, I'm not sure how I'd classify it, but I've long since ceased being in any way impressed by it.

>^..^<


[ Parent ]
This is exactly why I stayed away
from this post. As soon as I saw the headline I knew that the vitriol would come out.

I don't know enough about all of this, really, to even form a judgment. The anger at Aravosis seems appropriate, I suppose, but then taking it out on others seems, well, excessive to me. It's almost a case of me (a gay black male) being guilty until proven innocent. I suppose that I understand that POV but still...


I wouldn't hold you such a way
You at least know where we are coming from, Kevinchi, and unlike some of those here, you really try hard to understand, just as I do.

Thanks for your support.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Aravois I read about weekly, and is a voice in our community
I also read Andrew Sullivan about as often, neither I agree with too often, but they have their point of views.
I find I have to purposely alter language which I used for many years, but is dated now. Gay Bar, Gay vs. Straight, Gay Pride were terms used for years. Even though I was around  tons of women's studies women in college, (and about half were lesbians), it still took awhile before it was nearly mandatory you would say lesbian/gay together,(except West Coast which used gay women.) Just as Black will always be the term I'd think before I'd use African American (which I'm sorry is just awkward to use IMO.)
Transgender People is just a later extension, and now the alphabet soup of I, Q, and others, is getting too much.
I have no problem with thinking of transgender people as a vital part of the community, but Twin Cities knew and liked, and honored Transgender Women ahead of the curve.

I do have a question about "cis", is it used merely as other than trans, or is there a pajorative and negative hint to it like a queer saying breeder, or would be more neutral like a queer saying straight?

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


It means only and nothing more than, not trans
There's no pejorative aspect to it, no negative understructure, just as there is none in its complement.

It is, really, nothing more than the "straight" to "gay".

THe equivalent to breeder hasn't been developed yet that I'm aware of, even in the more. um, difficult, areas of the trans community.

It arose out of transfeminist discourse, trying to identify the variances and owes its existence to the efforts to educate the separatist lesbian and extremist women's liberation groups, especially during academic discourse.

it's flowed into the blogosphere as a result, and is used typically when speaking to concepts of privilege in all its forms.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
thanks for the answer
not to tell ya your business, but less is more with the term cis....IMO Maybe in an Academic situation it fits easier, used casually it feels off putting.

when I read a post, where it's used a lot,  it just turns me off like reading homosexual in a post.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
understood
However, its still the most effective way of stating it.

Its kinda like saying "straight" is off putting.

A lot of it is basically lack of familiarity -- but I will try to use "non-trans" more often, despite its clumsy and ineffective means of expressing the same idea.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I can easily see the term cis used when it's all trans people speaking together
Clubhouse tendencies are in every culture. it goes back to childhood and signs "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" or "NO BOYS ALLOWED"

btw on my diary, Mental Junk Drawer has a nice video link from L-Word of the trans FTM character to the song I'm Not a Girl, you might find interesting

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
Just watched it
ANd you are right, I did find it interesting.

ENogh that I might have to borrow some dvd's of the L-word, lol, although I'd heard the portrayal was not all that flattering (from lesbians, no less) and overplayed (imo, to be expected in a drama like that).

Also, please note my response to Pollyanna re: using it amongst ourselves.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I hated aspects of that FtM character.
Almost every episode when she would show up, I'd shout at the TV, "cut your damn hair if you want to be taken seriously."  There, see, I used "she" without even thinking about it. I just never bought into her as a guy.

I did think her boyfriend was hot, though. Theoretically, of course.


[ Parent ]
Required gender correction aside
LOL

Note that "Not buying into" is, well, sorta the kind of transphobic expression that's been talked about to some extent as it relies on some sort of "selling" one's gender to others, but more importantly...

... it was a woman playing the role, not a transperson.  Yet you are calling the character unbelievable instead of the actress who played the character doing a poor job.

(In your defense, one of the times I've ripped a few assholes with bloody bits was when I was informed by transfolk about it since the did they same thing.  Perhaps I should say I'm actually harder on transfolk who engage in their own transphobia.  Nah -- no perhaps.  I've been cutting with Brandi here.)

(Now ya knew that was coming, right? And no sweat.)

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Okay, I hated aspects of that FtM character AND
I never bought the actress's portrayal. Both. Plus, I vaguely believed that the actress thinks of herself/presents herself as some sort of gender queer, but have never been motivated enough to check that out further.

Note that "Not buying into" is, well, sorta the kind of transphobic expression that's been talked about to some extent as it relies on some sort of "selling" one's gender to others....

I don't quite know how to respond to that sort of victimology. Blame the viewer because the actor didn't pull off the illusion?  That's best left alone in this venue, I guess.

I find I react the same to transphobe, like homophobe, like any of the other mashed together culturally constructed -phobes being tossed about with abandon. I rarely ever use them, and think in most instances they cheapen our cases with people whose minds we're tying to change (most importantly, not the ones so labeled, as much as everybody standing on the sidelines listening in). Having seen people who suffer from true phobias, I just think most usages of these "terms" is laughable.


[ Parent ]
Having worked with such
people having "true" phobias, I can say that they do indeed fit all the criteris for such.

That it is institutionalized doesn't make a difference.

One of the reasons I like you so much is you spotted something right off the bat: victimology.

Most folks don't see that -- its one of the reasons that I can have a discourse with you (at least on my part) tht is as filled with the sort of "my victimization is worse than yours" bs I'm engaging in down thread.

Part of the reason I'm so direct and admittedly harsh at times is that I want to shock people out of the complacency regarding things involving transfolk.

Truth is, Polly, most non-trans GLB folks really do not understand just how pissed off the trans community is about things like John and crap like the Delaware failure.

ANd yet, every time we vent that stuff, we get crap that basically amounts to a devaluation of our language and our voice.

I'm not saying you in specific here, I'm saying in general. I was pointing out, using your example, how it is seen by transfolks when people say such things.

It that kind of deeply held thought that we are fighting against -- and, to be frank, its harder t do within the LGBT community than it is to do outside of it, because we are dealing with a substantial element of dimorphic behavior centered on a set of identities that is often tied directly to a combination of physical sex, gender roles, and gender identities that is common and highly structured.

(put another way, we are dealing with something that sorta threatens the established basis of Sexual orientation as man/man and woman/woman and such reinforces gender and sex archetypes and roles into a less flexible system.  ITs harder for GLB's to get because their identity is tied to a particular kind of attraction that our lives kinda screw up, lol).

ITs not easy, its not fun, and yes, it can be divisive.

But what's really revealing is that it is the same sort of division that lies between us and our more extremist opponents -- the language is the same, the culture is the same, and combined, it shows that there is a lot to be gained by speaking out.

We are being victimized by the cis-lgb folks.  ITs not pretty, its not nice, and until many GLB's are able and willing to admit that it is happening, this sort of thing will happen over and over again.

On the otherhand, how many of the Peter's and Bam Bam's and Kern's out there will admit they are victimizing the community as a whole (and, honestly, cisLGB in particular)?

Not a whole lot.

So it'll take a while, and in the interim, stuff like this will flare up, and those who refuse (such as below) will continue, and those who can make the admission that yeah there's something bad there, 'cause we do need to be all together, will understand.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Cis people don't like any terms, though
I try to talk about "cissexism" and "transmisogyny" instead of "transphobia" and then the cis people get all angry cuz they don't like being called "cis."

http://kynn.com/


[ Parent ]
I didn't follow L-word too closely
There was an odd scene with Alan Cummings being sexual with Max, that I really didn't buy. My lover detested the show, which is why I'd only see it periodicly. He wasn't thrilled with Queer as Folk either, but he preferred the censored versions on LOGO.....go know?

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
Oh, and I know *you* know
that you can ask me stuff like that anytime.

So thanks for asking :D

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
another question which I thought of
Is there genetic, or brain wave, or brain autopsy information studied on transgender people?
I know they found differences in gay men's brains, from straight men's brains which had more connections between the hemispheres. AIDS gave researchers a large supply of known gay men's brains, to do autopsies on our brains.
My lover keeps the TV on at night usually the science channel as white noise, but I've seen many shows where MPI mapping of brains is used quite a bit now.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
BwaHaHa - Don't get me started
Is there genetic, or brain wave, or brain autopsy information studied on transgender people?

Just a few.
A few hundred, that is. Far more data than for Gays alone.

The evidence of brain scans and autopsies says there's a biological basis, as do some rather more simple tests. As Professor Ecker MD said in a recent presentation to the APA on the subject:

"We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex."
And the MRI images and so on show why this is so. All the claims about "female brain in male body" turn out to be literally true. It's an intersex condition, like hundreds of others, where the body is neither wholly male nor wholly female.

Seminar s10 at the recent APA annual meeting:
S10. The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism

1. Brain Gender Identity Prof. Sidney W. Ecker, M.D.
2. Transsexuality as an Intersex Condition Prof Milton Diamond, Ph.D.
3. Novel Approaches to Endocrine Treatment of Transgender Adolescents and Adults Norman Spack, M.D.

See Brain Gender Identity - a presentation by Dr Sidney Ecker, MD FACS

Just a few of the papers on the subject:

Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism by Luders E, Sánchez FJ, Gaser C, Toga AW, Narr KL, Hamilton LS, Vilain E. in Neuroimage. 2009 Mar 30.

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034-2041

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301-312.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68-70.

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism by Hare at al Biological Psychiatry Volume 65, Issue 1, Pages 93-96 (1 January 2009)

A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism by Bentz et al Fertility and Sterility , Volume 90 , Issue 1 , Pages 56 - 59

fMRT zur Diagnose bei Transsexualität geprüft Ärzte Zeitung, 30.05.2006

I can recommend Dr Veronica Drantz's Summary of the Neuroanatomy.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse


[ Parent ]
Thanks ZoeB


What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
She beat me -- but was a better source for that than I am.
so I dinnae mind.

She's a good friend.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
"Science" and Sexuality you say?
Zoe Brain wrote:
"I can recommend Dr Veronica Drantz's Summary of the Neuroanatomy."

Must you? Drantz's blog on Chaz Bono commits the hugely misguided blunder of presuming the right to arbitrarily judge Bono's sexual orientation and gender identity. The headline literally blares out the verdict: "Chaz Bono Was Never a Lesbian!"

Bullshit.

No one but Chaz Bono has the right to make these kinds of authoritative declarations about Chaz Bono. One of the core principals of LGBT communities is that we make an effort to respect each others' self-professed identities and refrain from attempts to impose our own labels on other people.

Moreover, it is profoundly ignorant to claim that any trans person was "never a lesbian". Many of us transition through more than one singular identity and community over the course of our lives. While someone like Bono may no longer identify as lesbian, that doesn't retroactively invalidate everything they may have experienced in the past. A trans-masculine person who initially identified as a butch woman may eventually come to identify as a trans man, with a clear conviction of both personal identities having been completely authentic at the time.

Drantz then strikes out completely with the offensive claim that "Chaz is actually heterosexual." I don't think I need explain to anyone here what a tone-deaf insult it is for an academic PHD to label trans people who have come out and transitioned in queer communities as "heterosexual". While Bono could well at some point decide to assimilate into mainstream society as a straight man, Drantz has no right to nullify his entire life experience up to the present and rewrite as "heterosexual".


[ Parent ]
Preach it!
not to tell ya your business, but less is more with the term cis

Actually, it is OUR business (assuming you, like me, are not trans).

If trans people need to make up a word to refer to us, that's their business, I suppose.  But it doesn't mean I have to answer to it or use it. My eyes tend to glaze over when I come upon cis-heavy discussions.

I'm open to changing my point of view. But I'm sure not bonding to "cis" so far.


[ Parent ]
But, again, *we* didn't make up the word
Its been around a while.

And that's a lot like saying "if the homosexual's need to take over a word like "gay" to use among themselves, that's fine -- go right ahead.  Just not around us heterosexuals."

How would you feel if I, as a heterosexual transwoman, said and asked that of you?


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I'm going off what I read on Wikipedia
But, again, we didn't make up the word
I'm willing to be corrected if you can link to something more authoritative (which would be most anything).

And that's a lot like saying "if the homosexual's need to take over a word like "gay" to use among themselves, that's fine -- go right ahead.  Just not around us heterosexuals."
You've got it backwards, because heterosexuality is the norm.  Which is why we do need a term (or terms) with which to distinguish ourselves from the vast majority.

Even more so in the case of trans, you are not the norm, so you need your term (actually, a growing number of terms, it seems) to distinguish yourself from us whose gender identity is in congruence.

Your analogy would only be correct if gay people insisted that heterosexuals refer to themselves in some particular way, like breeder or het or straight.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


[ Parent ]
hrrrm
In checking out the history & discussion (which is rather, um, irritating) I see the oringinal use and coinage credit, but I'm familiar with it first from discussions in the intersex community in the late 1990's and apparently have been laboring under information errantly given. (as a note, I didn't come to myself until 2006, for reference).

So I can't fault you for citing that element, and I'm going to have to dig in the IS boards which, these days, are all but dead (even google didn't save them).

So, I will sit corrected on that point.

However, if I have it backwards, then you just indicated why I don't in your third paragraph.

And yes, there is a growing number of terms, as one is found less applicable given the slow unwinding of the gender structures. There is also the consistent thought that transgender = transsexual, which is not true, but as transsexuals are the typically the most vocal and used primarily as the media portrayal of such, it tends to cloud the issue.

Also, my analogy was from the other side, perhaps constructed poorly -- I was saying it was like the het's saying that gay people could only use gay among themselves, but not around them (a particular way).

In this case, it is the non transfolk telling us that we can only use cis among ourselves, but not around them.

SO I think you misread my analogy (likely my fault for construction) but that it still holds.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
The analogy wouldn't be gays using GAY around heterosexuals
It would be gays calling heterosexuals straight or het.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
I prefer
"Louise"... ;)

I know, for the sake of the conversation not especially helpful comment. I'm seeing this as an impossible rift until the two sides of the discussion agree that there simply IS a rift and work together to build a bridge on each side that meets in the middle.

How do we get there? Or can we?

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."


[ Parent ]
Aaaand...
I look down thread and see Autumn has brilliantly laid out the framework for the language bridge.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

[ Parent ]
That is, however the analogy, because in this case...
It is cis folk telling transfolk how to speak.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Nonsense.
At least in the way I'm reacting.

One can use any words one wants to while stumbling through this life trying (or not) to communicate.  Whether the persons being labeled choose to acknowledge the particular usage is really out of our hands.


[ Parent ]
Save that the issue is...
... that failure to acknowledge it is an aspect of privilege, itself.

So while it may be out of my hands that it tends to make you gloss over things, it is in your hands to make a conscious choice to overcome your privilege and learn, listen, and thereby reduce further potential conflict.

Your argument is now, basically, that you feel that cis- is meaningless to you (with a concomitant understanding that oppositionally trans- is equally meaningless when said is conveyed to transfolk -- ie, by denying its validity you deny our own, much like the Prop 8 ruling that said the word marriage is reserved for just het relationships but that all other rights and priviies are still required under law has been widely taken to mean that matrimony for non-het couples makes them less), so we shouldn't use it when talking to you, about us, in order to clearly delineate the underlying conflict that lies and highlight the privilege that is causing friction, because we cannot control how you take its meaning.

I'll just smile and nod here, like a good little tranny.

Done already got my warning for the week.



http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I didn't say don't use cis, but when used a lot, it does become off putting
btw....honey, I have been called MUCH worse and survived just FINE.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
lol you and me both, Petey :D
you and me both...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
The first I became aware of the terms cissexual and cisgender were from...

...Julia Serano, in her book The Whipping Girl:  A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity.

She has a blog entry on the terms here. She states:

The origin of "cis"

I have come across people who have assumed that I invented the terms cissexual and cisgender, but this is not the case. I reference "cissexual" this way in my book:

I was inspired to begin using the term "cissexual" after reading one of Emi Koyama's Interchange entries (www.eminism.org/interchange/2002/20020607-wmstl.html ). Apparently, the related term "cisgender" was first coined in 1995 by a transsexual man named Carl Buijs.

I don't know much about Carl Buijs or why he coined the term "cisgender." But as a scientist (where the prefixes "trans" and "cis" are routinely used), this terminology seems fairly obvious in retrospect. "Trans" means "across" or "on the opposite side of," whereas "cis" means "on the same side of." So if someone who was assigned one sex at birth, but comes to identify and live as a member of the other sex, is called a "transsexual" (because they have crossed from one sex to the other), then the someone who lives and identifies as the sex they were assigned at birth is called a "cissexual."

...Why use the term "cis"?

I suppose different people might give different answers to this question, so it is probably best for me to explain why I started using this terminology, and why I chose to include it in the book.

I began writing Whipping Girl in 2005, before I had heard of the "cis" terminology. A major focus of the book was to debunk many of the myths and misconceptions people have about transsexuals. Initially, I was kind of scattershot in my approach: In one chapter, I would critique the way the term "passing" is used in reference to transsexuals. In another chapter I would critique the use of the terms "bio boy" and "genetic girl" to describe non-trans men and women. In yet another chapter, I would critique the way that transsexuals are always depicted as imitating or impersonating "real" (read: non-trans) women and men. And so on. After a while, it became obvious to me that all of these phenomena were stemming from the same presumption: that transsexual gender identities and sex embodiments are inherently less natural and less legitimate than those of nontranssexual people.

I realized that it would make a lot more sense to write a chapter for the book that thoroughly exposes this double standard and describes the many ways it is employed in order to marginalize transsexuals. As I was contemplating this, I stumbled onto the  aforementioned Emi Koyama post,  where she discusses the usefulness of the terms cissexual, cisgender and cissexism. She said:

"...they de-centralize the dominant group, exposing it as merely one possible alternative rather than the "norm" against which trans people are defined. I don't expect the word to come into common usage anytime soon, but I felt it was an interesting concept - a feminist one, in fact - which is why I am using it."


-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
(Cont.)

It was then that I realized that the double standard that I was writing about already had a name: cissexism. And the chapter of WG dedicated to debunking cissexism eventually took on the title: "Dismantling Cissexual Privilege." ...

She goes on -- really detailed description of why the person who popularized the term uses the term.

I've basically made the decision -- for me, not for everyone -- not to use cissexual or cisgender unless I'm talking in terms of feminism (as Serano's work is a feminist piece), and/or I explain the term within the piece I'm writing.

These days, I mostly just say non-transgender or non-transsexual to describe people who are not transgender or not transsexual -- and that's, well,  because I'm lazy about this. Cissexual and cisgender become just one more set of terms I don't have to explain to an audience who doesn't necessarily want to hear or learn a new term -- and because, like here in this thread, some non-transgender and non-transsexual people hear the term in a way where they feel like I'm trying to marginalize them.

Honestly, I've never heard a trans person use the terms cissexual or cisgender in a way that was meant to be marginalizing to non-transgender and non-transsexual people, but hey, in my case, I write mostly to explain transgender (T) people and issue to the lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) audience here at The Blend. Any terminology I can use that doesn't increase the distance between the audience I'm aiming to have a conversation with and trans people and issues I'm writing about is language I'm going to use.

It's too easy to be tempted to say cissexual and cisgender are just words that mean "not transsexual" and "not transgender," so get over it, but tranny, the other f-word, fairy, and she-male are "just words" too -- and I strongly object their use. And the entomology of transvestite is cross + dress, but transvestite is considered a pejorative to most trans people in the same way that homosexual -- a term that's entomology means same + sex -- is a pejorative to most gay people.

So, words mean things, but words also have impact beyond their sterile entomologies and meanings.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Nice Points
But the author you quote wrote the book in 2005, a good 10 years or more after the advent and usage of the word became more regular.  I wonder what impact that had on the writing and usage of a word that had become more commonplace when she was writing the book.  Also, the person who is credited for coining the term (rightly or wrongly) has inferred that it is a pejorative since he and the person he is responding to, call it as being a word used to describe "those unfortunates, and those boring people without much exciting experiences in life".  Which makes the word one designed by it's originator to be pejorative as he himself claims.  Yes, it does seem that he is saying it in jest, but we all know that in humor there is an expression of the truth.    

An email exchange with Bruni show this:

Roberta Steel (ae...@yfn.ysu.edu) wrote:

: Carl,

: What is the origin and meaning of the word cisgendered?

How impolite of me not to answer earlier. I see others have replied already
while I was away for a couple of days. Joan and Beth were right, cis is the
opposite of trans (want another example? The South African Ciskei and
Transkei). As for the origin; I just made it up. I just kept running into
the problem of what to call non-T*people in various discussions, and one day
it just hit me: non-trans = cis. Therefore, cisgendered.

: From context, it's those unfortunates who aren't TGed, but where does the
: word come from?

Yeah. You know, them boring people without much exciting experiences in
life.

: Some time ago there was a discussion about what to call
: non TG people.  Maybe this is the right word.

I like it and I think I'll keep using it. Feel free to join me. 9:-)

Greets,

Carl

http://groups.google.com/group...

And if you read the whole thread, it is intersting to see that the same issues being discussed here were being discusssed back in 1996.  And the fact that cisgendered replaced the word unigender, is also of great interest, along with the fact that there was/is(?) an ongoing argument that some transexuals do not consider themselves transgendered.  

But from the usage and origin of the word, how are we non-trans (as you prefer) not supposed to feel slighted or insulted when the origin of the word seems to be rooted in some animosity towards us, as if we are lesser than the transgendered portion of our community?  Trans individuals here on the Blend have expressed that they feel that the larger LGB portion of the LGBT community feels superior to them, but then the larger trans community seems (from my admittedly limited exposure to only two good friends who are transgendered and my exposure to the issues here and other readings)to feel superior to us?

Myself, I could care less what gender identity one has, what gender they are or know themselves to be, their sexual orientation, color of their skin or any other concern other than Equality for ALL.  I try to be sensitive to the needs of others, and sometimes fail miserably as it seems we ALL do from time to time.

I'm a firm believer that equality is equality for all, not just those I know and like.

But if we are to come together in order to form a more united community, the anger and bickering over some unintended slights must end.  The conversation must be open so that those who do unintentionally offend may find the loving corrective guidance from those who have more knowledge.  We must see beyond or perceived insults to see the truth behind the questions and the truth behind the answers to embrace all parts of our community.    


The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
We have this discussion with "transgender"

Transgender was coined by Virginia Prince to mean one thing, but the word took on a meaning that the creator of the term didnt envision.

And, if you read the history of the terms homosexual and transvestite, you'll see they were originally designed to destigmatize communities. But here and now, decades later, these two terms have become stigmatizing terms.

I would look how it's currently used by most who use it -- do they mean the term to stigmatize?

In this thread, I can see where one could walk away with the idea that cissexual is a negative term because of the words that have been used with the term cissexual.

And that's unfortunate. Most of the trans people I know are just trying to find a term that describes, in a neutral manner, people who are not trans, and see cissexual (and cisgender) as neutral terms that describe those who aren't trans.

I'll keep your thoughts of what the term means to you when I use the term in the future. How you feel about the term is important -- by those of us who sometimes uses the tersm it's not supposed to be a term that just identifies gay men, but neutrally meant to describe all people -- male, female, and intersexed -- who doesn't have a gender identity that matches what's between their legs, or who don't need to express gender in a way that breaks societal norms (such as crossdressers, androgynes, and genderqueers).

If I ever use the term again, I'll use it to describe non-trans people in a way to attack non-trans people.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Geez, editing my last sentece myself, I miswrote my last sentece/paragraph.

Should be:

If I ever use the term again, I'll use it to describe non-trans people in a way as not to attack non-trans people, and definitely use the term in a way that doesn't look like it applies only to gay men.


-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
Minor note
Prince coined "transgenderist" and/or "transgenderal" (1969).

Transgender was coined later by transsexual users as a wider term of , but it was really Leslie Feinberg who popularized the term in the 1980's as a political identity, building on the work in the 80's of establishing it as an umbrella term.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I've had this conversation before, and it's a good one to have.
My best friend is a 50 plus year old straight militant black woman, and we have had this conversation about many terms in the past.  Sometime talking about a word, where it comes from, and what it means to the speaker and the listener, is a very good conversation to have.

We recently had this type of discussion about the word "Choice" when it comes to sexual orientation, she could not understand why I was upset that she uses the word "choice" to describe sexual orientation, and for the life of her she could not understand why it made me crazy that she uses it.

I was finally able to explain that the word "Choice" when applied to sexual orientation, rather than sexual ACTIVITY, was a meme that has been used by those who hate us to beat us down.  I explained, that in my view, when people who are supportive of the LGBT community use the same terms our enemies use to describe us, that it only reinforces the meme that they use to keep us down.

I had to explain that the word choice implies that we do in fact have a choice about our orientation (I think we do not, but that we have a choice in our sexual ACTIVITY-BIG DIFFERENCE).  I tried to explain that yes, we could choose what sexual activity we engaged in, but that we did not choose the sexual orientation we were born with, and that those who would oppress us used the word "choice" to deny us our rights, because they think our "choice" means that sexuality is not innate and that it thus would not legally be a suspect class under the law, which would justify (to them) their denial and withholding of our rights.

That was my best friend and the conversation took more than an hour until she understood what I was saying and how the word then appeared to her.  It is now not a word she would use in regards to Orientation.  She understood the emotional hurt and actual harm the application of tha word had on the LGBT community as a whole.

I am not against the fighting over a word, or the sane and respectful exchange of ideas, and am hopeful that in having these arguments, err...discussions, at looking at what our own words mean to US and what our own words mean to THOSE TO WHOM WE ARE SPEAKING, that we can better understand what the other is truly saying.

People see words differently, and while they do have some universal meanings, they can often mean something different to those who use it as oppossed to those who hear it.  

A lesson we ALL need to learn and embrace, not get offended by, learning what reactions our lexicons illicit on those to whom we are trying to converse with is the first step in true communication.  We cannot learn or teach if the language we use does not translate the message we wish to send.  That applies to every group message, regardless of the past bad blood that may exist.

I tried to explain that I have no problem with the term cisgendered, but gave the links I did so that I might show WHY and HOW it might come across to others, and why words matter.    

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
If they spell faerie correctly as in Radical Faeries, I don't mind it
It's a reclaimed slur, and it celebrates some of our playful natures.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
Not all trans folk like the "cis" prefix either
Pollyanna wrote:

If trans people need to make up a word to refer to us, that's their business, I suppose.  But it doesn't mean I have to answer to it or use it. My eyes tend to glaze over when I come upon cis-heavy discussions.

"Cis" is not something that originated out of trans communities in real life. As explained elsewhere in the thread, it's an academic-sounding term often deployed in Wikipedia gender theory discussions. When used outside of that context, it sounds like technical jargon and often sidelines a conversation into a pedantic definition of terminology.

I avoid it because people who haven't heard it before may think you're saying "sis-gendered" as if to abbreviate some kind of trans-sisterhood with women (which itself would sound like "transistor", LOL).


[ Parent ]
One really offensive part of the non inclusive ENDA
Those who would rationalize leaving trans folks behind, and saying we'll come back for you...which everyone knows is a lie.
It's gender variance folks easiest for those haters to pick them out to attack. While many heterosexuals are truely blind, deaf, and DUMB missing lesbians COMPLETELY. Two good lesbian friends who were both butch appearing with hair shorter than many men, would go dance together in straight bars, and no one blinked an eye. Now the most MINOR effete action would immediately get a boy beaten and then ridiculed.
So the idea we (LGBs) could possibly not protect those most abused and most at risk...just seems cruel beyond belief. It also is no wonder trans folks and gender variant people were the rebels at Stonewall, in the pre Stonewall world of MANDATORY closets....these people couldn't hide.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


I should change couldn't hide
to couldn't or wouldn't hide....many could have "passed" and refused to.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
Time to disengage
The comments I've read in this thread have led me to decide not to engage the transgendered community at all. If they don't want the solidarity of gay men then they won't get it, at least not from me. And Autumn, the brief that was "horrid" was the DOMA brief, not DADT.  

Well, you're misunderstanding me, at least

My broader point is that I want to embrace diversity -- to embrace the entirety of the lesbain, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community, and would like to see that at the norm in community.

My apologies if you don't see that desire for diversity in my transgender peers.

But that said, I'm pointing out a gay, male blogger who has publicly stated that T's aren't in his vision of our community, but cites trans people to make other points about the LGBT community issues -- community that he refers to as the gay community in a manner to specifically exclude trans people.

I think you're getting it backwards on who wants to be seperate from who, and that's unfortunate.

And, not every transgender activist is an angry activist -- In fact tomorrow I'll be posting a piece from a mother of a transyouth, and what turned into a transgender community activist. I know Kim Pearson and I would both like to engage you as transgender activists.

And in an unrelated note -- thanks for pointing out the error in my piece. I corrected the error.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
It's not you Autumn
It's the commenters, both transgendered and lesbian, berating Blenders for being white, gay and male. I don't like Aravosis any more than you do.

[ Parent ]
Looking forward to reading it!


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

[ Parent ]
Kukito
I got angry and left threads about a year ago which dealt with trans issues. Some was my fault, and some were trans posters who were really hardline on terms they were insisted on rigid PC conforming....which is SO not me.
I have come back to some trans threads, but I understand pulling back. I have also lived through some of the UGLIEST period when gays and lesbians REALLY didn't play nice together, and even today there are issues which can flare tempers. We fight IN HOUSE better than any other minority I know....LMAO!
I wouldn't have a problem explaining gay stuff to someone who was approaching the subject maybe awkwardly, but just from being a novice, not mean spirited.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small


[ Parent ]
LOL- Here's one thing blacks and gays have in common, Petey!
We fight IN HOUSE better than any other minority I know....LMAO!
 

[ Parent ]
I dunno...
colorism is pretty rampant, still

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Now positioned as the angry trans activist, lol
Note that I'm sorta the Malcolm X to Autumn's MLK. Given that Autumn herself has shown elements of white privilege in her postings, its workable, since I tend to show elements other than that.

And its a fairly decent approximation of our particular viewpoints regarding trans issues, yet there is one thing we both share in common ideologically:

We both know that we, as transfolks, cannot fight for merely transsexuals, or just crossdressers, or only drag queens, or just a few hand picked transfolk of whatever stripe.

We have to fight for all of the transfolk. Including the Gay, Lesbian, and bisexual ones.

And so when we see things like the statements of John Avarosis and others akin to him, what we see is GLB people saying "we only want to get rights for the GLB people we like. THe rest can keep keep suffering."

And from my perspective, one can add that the one's they want to keep suffering are the one's suffering far more than they are already.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


Oh, wth -- for the 200
Had to get it in. I like even numbers.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

[ Parent ]
Aww!
I took too long editing my comment- phooey! ;) But glad you got the 200 mark, dys.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

[ Parent ]
If the common goal
is a locking of arms towards an inclusive goal of fairness and equality on a myriad of issues, then I very much like the analogy of Autumn/MLK and you/MX. That makes sense of the different approaches and feel of the discussions for me.

Must say, the past few days posts (which I have read multiple times) have been extraordinarily eye-opening and informational.

Here in Maine, our laws have been achieved in a different order and my existing knowledge has been influenced by that. To find that the "inclusion of all" that feels so natural (certainly it was present at last week's Pride in Portland; my first such event and as such, a wonderful chance to watch thousands of people interact with one another) was NOT the rule of thumb was baffling at first, then infuriating. So I am really trying my damnedest to pay attention and LEARN.

Thank you...

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."


[ Parent ]
No.
Thank you.

For trying to realize that there's a reason that fire is there, and that it is not unjust.

For listening.

I'm caustic, abrasive, annoying -- a harsh or unpleasant noise, an interruption to the melody. I am Dyssonance.

You don't thank that.

But you listen, and maybe you'll find a new music within.

So thank you.

ANd one day, the dyssonance will have left, and all that will be left is harmony.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
I also link to your blog, Dys
as well as KatRose's; your writings and the links you both provide are helping me see and learn faster than you can know. And believe ME, I have had my moments of being caustic and am still quite capable! ;)

But the HONESTY of the writing- THAT'S what I place higher value to. Someone's harshness can be amended- but honesty is harder to achieve for those who do not inheirently possess it.

Fow anyone else who wants to follow me, I highly recommend both reads.

(Plus Kat currently has a photo of the Lovely Louise, her pug, featured!)

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."


[ Parent ]
Thanks.
Nice to know my dark little corner of the universe has a visitor outside of Leigh and Susan, lol

(who likely have read parts if not most of this and are none too pleased with me and likely to have some nasty things to say about Autumn.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
And you're right...

...that I do have white privilege, and I'd add I have passing privilege too.

I try to stay aware of my privilegs -- but that's the problem with privilege: Sometimes you don't recognize when you're working from a position of privilege.

But what privilege I have that I'm aware of that I can use for others, I try and use to better the world for others.

Such as, I used my white, passing privileges as much as I could in Greeley, Colorado, covering the Angie Zapata trial. I wanted to get the point across about minority trans women who are killed for being minority trans women -- often people no one cares about. I think only a white, passing trans woman could have made that point as effectively as it was made.

And, I don't like that I feel that only a white trans woman could really accomplish what I accomplished there in Greeley -- those feelings offend my sensibilities and ideals about equality. But, I'm glad I used what privilege I had to make the points I did. It was better to make the points from my place of privilege than not see the points made at all.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau


[ Parent ]
We disagree on methods...
.. but agree on the common goal.

Its hard to stay away from privilege.  I now quite well.  I have a passing privilege that's of a different sort, which highlights for me both the inherent self insult in the term passing, in that I have he ability to "pass for white".

From my perspective, this is a variation on colorism (the whole cis/trans dichotomy within the LGBT/Queer movment), but that's a separate discussion since even here such is avoided.

You do a damn good job of staying aware of it, too, Autumn.

And with the Zapata coverage, your thought that "only" is, well, a piece of it -- which is probably why you didn't like that. But it did help you.

I'm way over educated -- so I come across as patronizing a lot -- its something I'm aware of but can't change readily.

The key, though -- the important part that flows above everything else -- is that awareness of privilege.

The awareness that it exists, and it is very hard to make people aware of it.

Because they say things from privilege that discount and demean, even when they themselves are not intending to discount or demean.

We've got to be heard, and that voices cannot be from one set of views, or even two.

It needs to be many.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


[ Parent ]
Honky, cracka, peckerwood
Speaking from the standpoint of a black gay male and basing this on my observation of this thread, "cis" and "cisgendered" is being used in almost precisely the same way that I would use honky, cracka, or peckerwood.

That's just my opinion.


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