Who's crazier? The church that tries to 'exorcise' homosexuality or those who would defend it?

Oh puhleeze....the alleged "Christian Anti-Defamation League" my ass. . .

These clowns would defend the right of Jim Jones to poison his flock and would be the first to claim that tossing a victim into the top of a volcano is nothing more than an exercise of their "religious" beliefs.

They are free to believe any damn thing they want - as long as they aren't hurting innocent people. Their lame comparison to Pride parades is not only insulting but another attempt to deflect from their institution of torture to placate their consciously selected bigotry against their fellow man - and worse, children.

This isn't a "church" - it's a greedmongering, profiteering scam operation. And that is a helluva a lot more "vile" than their whining about gay people happily marching down a city street. One would think they love those pride parades, since it gives their ministry an opportunity to salivate over the thousands of possible torture victims they could sacrifice at the altar.

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by: kevinbgoode @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 17:25:57 PM CDT

What I want to know is...

Did money change hands?

I know that many of the people who do these exorcisms charge a fee. It is one of the oldest con games in existence.

While watching something like this on video is shocking, it is not as uncommon as many people think.

Many of the con artists who do exorcisms collect money for providing special holy water and magic charms rather than being paid for rendering a service. That way people think they are just covering a necessary expense. They pay $100 for a small bottle of tap water.

People need to ask the right questions about what this church did. Did they hire someone to perform the ritual? Did the pay a con artist to act as a consultant?

There are hundreds of people who work with these churches as professional exorcists.

Like this creep:

http://www.therealexorcist.com

This is an ancient con game. Those who claim they can help people by casting out demons are criminals.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 17:31:57 PM CDT

A Crux in History

Christian religion has reached a moment of decision.  We live in a new age of post-modernism that has created a crisis for the Christian faith, unlike any since the time of Protestant Reformation.

They are in an identity crisis.  The conservatives, like thoe who defend and use exorcisms, take their faith from a literal reading of the scripture.  The look at the stories of Jesus and his apostles and see them casting out demons and so they try to carry on in that tradition.

Much of the world has begun to re-examine the claims of Christianity and come to believe that much of the story of Jesus, Moses, and the apostles was created fiction.  The sad part is that faith has a strong hold on many people to this day.  They fear a vengeful God who is coming down in the end times to wipe out the unbelievers.  People live in fear and spiritual leaders misuse that power much like this end time prophet has done to manipulate and hurt people.

It is imperative that we try to reach out and help these people into a new age of understanding.  Instead of using faith to manipulate people out of fear, they should be using it to help people grow and become better people.  

In a post-modern age many more will come to see these past beliefs as bigoted.  It is only in the most recent time that we have begun to relieve Christian faith of it bigotry toward people of other races, and women.  Let's continue to expose these people and fight them.

Later,

Marlin

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by: texasman @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 18:49:00 PM CDT

It always amazes me ...

the way these idiots always scream intolerance at any criticism at all. Imagine what they'd do if their civil rights were abridged as ours are -- at their insistence.

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by: earthlingblues @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 19:12:45 PM CDT

Why ask Which?

Who's crazier? The church that tries to 'exorcise' homosexuality or those who would defend it?

Can't it be a tie?

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 20:18:09 PM CDT

Or how about?

Who is the biggest sucker? The people who pay a con artist to drive out demons or those who defend the con game?

Obviously, those who fork over their money are the suckers. The people defending the con artists are making money, too. They are raising funds for their organization on the heels of  the worlds oldest con job.

The real losers are the victims of the con.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 20:30:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Some of us are them...

I think the problem here is that in so many instances this becomes an us vs them conversation. The problem with any kind of discussion like that is the need to reduce or over simplify the other side. There is a lot going on in this story but the issue is do we want to talk about the story or do we want to deal with the real issue.

The kid went to them. He asked to be exorcised and that is based on a belief he shares with them and the fact that our society has demonized homosexuality. But even in this issue there might be layers. Maybe his sex life is too active for his age. Maybe his boyfriend just quit him. He is 16 and there are bound to be an entire list of reasons why he might go to his church to ask for this. truth be told when I was a church youth later it wasn't uncommon for a heartbroken youth to believe that he/she was demon possessed because of the strength of the emotions in their lives at the time.

By the same token this church is very much misled to believe that anyone claiming demon possession might be demon possessed. Such a belief isn't even biblical. Nor is the idea that a demon possessed person would ask to be exorcised.  Never mind the admonishment of keeping such things in house and not exposing such things to the general public which amazingly enough are both Biblical admonishments.

In the end there are a lot more issues to deal with before we hit that third rail of challenging religious beliefs and bigoted gay ideology in the church. The real issue is that if we just get mad and belittle the incident we can expect this to haunt us later by disingenuous fundamentalist religious terrorists in a way that makes us look like the bad guys when we have little or no power in how this plays out in the world in the first place. Be angry but be careful.

Always thinking about it...

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by: kudo451 @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 20:28:27 PM CDT

There ain't no demons

I could just as easily say that alien spirits inhabit the planet and cause all of our pychological and emotional problems. Just give me some cash and I'll hook you up to a special machine and drive the alien spirits away. Oh, right. The Scientologists are already doing that con.

If I were an unscrupulous person, I could just make something like this up and rake in the cash.

I want to know is money changed hands in this case.

I want to know who did the exorcism and if that person was paid for either for the service or for "supplies" used to drive out the mythical demon.

Follow the money. That's what this crap is always about.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 20:37:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Exactly.

Crap like this reinforces my atheism.

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by: PSzymeczek @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 22:52:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's a great idea, Fritz

If I were an unscrupulous person, I could just make something like this up and rake in the cash.

Want to go into business exorcising Divorce Demons!

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 03:56:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The church feels singled out and abused.

How ironic. That's what was happening to the young man in their exorcism service.

Christian persecution and oppression of gay teens has nasty and lifelong effects on the mental health of those abused. It is no justification to point out, as the pastor here does, that they also "deliver" folks from demons of what they consider "other sins". In their attempts to prove themselves capable of helping people, they are instead recklessly damaging to those sadly under their influence.

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by: adamblast @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 20:45:23 PM CDT

I agree

This is something that has always "confused" me is that the AmerIndians and the African Americans both adopted Christianity which was the main source of destruction for both of their communities.  Christian support for white man/western civilization as better and superior was used to obliterate so much in the world, but now Christianity is the pre-dominant faith in both of these groups.

But the same is true in the gay world.  There was a recent poll that found that about 60% of gays felt that God was an important part of their life.  Gay Christians are one of the most interesting movements in the United States from the MCC and the many other gay churches that mimic other churches.  

I think that it is true that it seems almost impossible for most people to escape the "faith" they grew up in.  Either a fear that they might be wrong and end up punished by a god(dess) or that they would have to say that their ancestors were wrong and will be punished by said god(dess).

For some this fear leads to ex-gay ministries that continue to harm the gay community and those individuals who try.  For some it means embracing a gay Christian perspective.  For some the damage is too far gone and they are irreparably harmed.  For some it means giving up and killing themselves.  For a very small perspective it means rejecting their faith completely and embracing no faith or something completely different.

Later,

Marlin

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by: texasman @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 22:02:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry wrong area for response

This was in response to Ray Cabral's post.  Pleas forgive misplacement.

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by: texasman @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 22:03:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just because they believe in God

doesn't believe that they believe in Christianity.

And if it's true that 60% of gay people believe in God, then doesn't that meen that the "the gay movement" (where the perception is that religion is the enemy) has been missing an important and major voice?  

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by: kevinchi @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 22:11:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hallelujah!

You bet, the Gay community has been missing that boat. But truth be told it was the same for the Women's movement and the African American movement though eventually blacks would catch on. Faith is a big part of people's lives whether others like it or not. Learning to recognize this fact did more to advance the African American movement than any other civil rights movement on the planet.

Always thinking about it...

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by: kudo451 @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 03:56:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

disconnect

Somehow a disconnect occurred in American history:  the Black slave was somehow induced to accept and adopt the worst aspect of the white society- its religion.  What was it that made it so acceptable?  The idea that if you accept in silence the suffering handed to you in this life the better your reward will be in the next?  It wasn't just accepted, it was swallowed whole and with a vengeance, so that now the southern Black christian ideas permeate that society.  How do you break people away from the perniciousness of those ideas?
Love,
Rick Cabral
 

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by: RickCabral @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 21:32:22 PM CDT

Coersion.

Plain and simple.

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by: PSzymeczek @ Sat Jun 27, 2009 at 22:53:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That is so cynical and slightly offensive

You should note that these are people who came from very religious cultures and where no in a dark place where their gods no longer applied and they had little or no family or community to speak of except for the transient connections of the slave cabins. Christianity represented a God who was universal to their current situation, who seemed to be someone even their own slave masters feared and had servants (the children of Israel) who where in the same dark place they where in and who would receive reward in the next life but could also achieve freedom in this one. This was not a con for the African American slave it was a hope.

Always thinking about it...

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by: kudo451 @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 04:02:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

practice makes perfect

As a humanist and a former fundamentalist Baptist Christian, I have to say that if this stuff wasn't in the Bible, no one would be doing it!

Everyone likes to talk about jesus and love but they don't like to talk about the parts of the Bible where he did exorcisms, talked about hell and went into a jealous rage.

You can't just accept the parts of that book as truth that make you feel comfortable and discard or challenge the uncomfortable parts.

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by: MarcAdams @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 02:12:44 AM CDT

There can be no real defence, for this will lead to far worse

The Christian Anti-Defamation Commission is blaming the lgbt community for the entire incident. The group claimed that the church was merely exercising its religious beliefs and is now being persecuted:

CADC wants to know where is the tolerance for a church who tried to help a young man who freely asked for help to overcome homosexual temptations? No church deserves to be maligned for trying to help a troubled teen who asked for prayer.

I've worked on the prosecutions of cases involving religious leaders who incited genocidal killings in the name of "exercising their religious beliefs"

From such "exercising of religious beliefs" came Bosnia, Kosovo, Rwanda and the Armenian massacres.

From these cane the Utashi slaughter of Jews in WWII

Were these religious leades simply "exercising their religious beliefs" when they incited mass murder?

International law says that there is a finite endpoint to what "exercising religious beliefs" permits one to do.

Do religions disagree with that position?
Of course.
Islamists in the Ottoman Empire defended the elimination fo the Armenians and Orthodox leaaders supported the murder of Islamic Bosnians.

The Catholic Church has repeateldy hidden the perpetrators of the Rwandan horrors and in fact raised a Utashi convicted war criminal, Cardinal Stepanic, to blessed.

This kind of "exercise of religious freedon" will in the end lead to the same sad outcomes.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 06:51:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Who's crazier?

Who's crazier?  The defenders, by a long shot.

One expects crazies (e.g. this church) to be, well, crazy.  It goes with the territory.

But when people attempt to use the faculty of reason to defend crazies - to insist that craziness is, in fact, reasonable - then you KNOW they're cracked.

You can't blame an ellipse for being an ellipse, but you CAN blame an observer who soldiers right on through insisting he still sees a perfect circle.

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by: CubPaws2008 @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 02:45:58 AM CDT

THIS IS FELONY ASSAULT

Contact the State's Attorney!!

Why aren't these felons in jail?

You can't give permission to be beaten up or murdered.

I've written to the Fairfield Judicial District State's Attorney demanding that these people be prosecuted for felony assault.

I'll call them on Monday.

Here's the information:

Jonathan C. Benedict, State's Attorney
1061 Main Street Bridgeport, CT 06604
(203) 579-6506
Geographical Area No. 2
172 Golden Hill Street Bridgeport, CT 06604
(203) 579-6555

I sent my letter to the Main Street address and that is where I will phone on Monday.

I encourage everyone here to do the same. I'm sure that if they got phone calls and letters from all over the country demanding an investigation and prosecution, it would totally freak them out. The video alone should be enough evidence for a conviction.

Liz

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 03:53:39 AM CDT

The implication that daemonic possession 'makes us gay"

is certainly a destructive one and one that highlights that there can in the end be little compromise between religious extremists and the LGBT movement. Our hope is the secular state and trying to hold America to the principles of many of the Founders...

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Sun Jun 28, 2009 at 06:34:59 AM CDT