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Christians and "Civility"

by: QScribe

Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 11:55:20 AM EDT


There has been a great deal of talk here about "civility" lately, much of it justified.  I'm the first one to confess that I can be pretty snarky when provoked, and I'll gladly admit that I have a certain small talent for provoking others.

But exactly what do we mean when we talk about "civility"?  Which is to ask, where does disagreement, even vigorous disagreement, become "uncivil"?  I'd be the first one to argue, for instance, that claiming that Ann Coulter "looks like a man" is frivolous, insulting and, for that matter, beside the point.   (If your biggest criticism of Coulter is that she "looks like a man," you're implicitly giving her a pass on all the detestable things she's said and written.  If she looked like Grace Kelly, would everything else about her be okay?)  But is it being uncivil to her?  That strikes me as arguable, at best.  She isn't even here.

But leaving aside the question of whether it's possible to be "uncivil" to someone who isn't even part of the conversation, there is another strain of argument we hear all the time: that disagreeing with Christians, criticizing or even examining their beliefs and finding them wanting, is in some way inherently "uncivil."

I contend that it isn't, for a lot of reasons.

QScribe :: Christians and "Civility"
First of all, to get the obvious out of the way, there is the long, bloody record of Christian history vis-à-vis gay people.  The Christian church, in its various manifestations, has been actively persecuting us for as long as it's been in a position to do so.  The first legal code in the Western world to criminalize gayness was the Theodosian Code in the 4th century (it called for imprisonment and torture)-which was composed by a panel of Christian bishops.  The first law code to call for the death penalty for gays was the 6th century's Justinian Code-which was likewise the handiwork of bishops.  And the persecutions continue to this day.  In parts of Africa, the Christian church still imposes severe penalties for what the Church of England used to call "the abominable crime of buggery," and much of the Christian world still enforces sodomy laws.  And I hardly have to detail all the Christian villainy we've faced in this country.  The word sodomy itself has its roots in the Christian holy book.  

Whether people want to admit it or not, the way Fred Phelps and Benedict XVI talk about us is consistent with the way we've been treated by the Christian church for 2,000 years.  Anything pro-LGBT in Christianity is a recent  development.  I know there are people who are willing to give Christianity a pass on that.  Many more of us are not.

It will be argued that "not all Christians are like that" and that "you shouldn't paint Christians with a broad brush."  Well, I can't remember ever seeing a comment here (or anywhere else, for that matter) to the effect that every single Christian everywhere is a bad person.  We are all perfectly aware that there are "affirming" and "accepting" congregations and a great many fine individual Christians.  Comments tend to be about the Christian church at the institutional level and its supporters.

I've pointed out before that of the 30-odd state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage, and the scores of anti-gay ballot initiatives and referenda across the country, every single one of them has been initiated or actively promoted by a Christian group.  In contrast, I'm not aware of even one pro-gay measure that has come out of a Christian group.  Not one.  

Moreover, the "affirming" churches never seem to speak out against the language and behavior of the actively hateful ones.  It's all very well for churches to claim to be "affirming," but that affirmation never seems to translate into action.  The old phrase "all aid short of help" comes to mind.

I also have to point out that there are no known "ex-gay" groups that are not either sponsored by Christian churches or do not have active ties to them.  And of the anti-gay groups that combined to form the "Freedom Foundation" earlier this week,  at least 14 of the 24 are identifiably Christian, while a good many more have strong ties to the Christian right.  

I've debated any number of homophobes over the years, both on and off the air, and I can honestly say that there wasn't even one of them who at some point didn't try to justify his position by citing the Bible or the church's teaching.  And of course there is no way of calculating the amount of damage being done to us by Obama's five anti-gay "spiritual advisers."

But let's leave aside for a moment Christianity's virulently anti LGBT past and present.  There is a long, long philosophic position of unbelief, dating back to the pre-Christian era.  I've always loved this, from the Greek philosopher Epicurus: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"  Cicero famously declared, "The gods are forces and ideas made poetry for our instruction." But despite their skepticism about established religion, no one presumed to accuse them of "incivility".  

That refusal to take anything about religion at face value has been more common than not among great thinkers.  From Aristotle ("Men create gods after their own image, not only with regard to their form, but with regard to their mode of life") to Sir Francis Bacon ("Atheism leads a man to sense") to Voltaire ("Atheism is the voice of a few intelligent people") to Marx ("The first requisite of the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion"), atheism has been the rule rather than the exception.  Were all those philosophers being "uncivil" by voicing their philosophies?

Even figures as unlikely as Charlie Chaplin voiced their disbelief and the reasons for it ("I am an atheist on the ground of common sense").  To argue that people who put forth their own unbelief are being uncivil is missing the point entirely and, quite frankly, it strikes me as a rather desperate argument.  

And of course the tradition of criticizing Christianity, specifically, on various grounds is equally long and equally rich.  Thomas Jefferson:  "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva from the brain of Jupiter."  There is this, from Nietzsche:  "Christianity makes suffering contagious."  And also this Nietzschean dictum: "The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."  Even Christian leaders have, perhaps unintentionally, called their religion into question.  Pope Leo X: "It has served us well, this myth of Christ."

(One complaint we frequently hear is about the use of the phrase "fairy tales" to describe the Bible.  But if I were to express a belief that, say, the sun is really a flaming chariot driven across the sky each day by Apollo, would anyone hesitate to tell me I believe in a fairy tale?  Fair's fair.)

It would be possible to cite scores more of such quotes, but why go on?  The simple fact is that unbelief in general and severe skepticism about Christianity in particular constitute a long intellectual/philosophic tradition.  Whether you agree with it or not, it is at least as valid as any other world view, and the proposition that expressing it inherently constitutes some sort of calculated insult to believers is petulant, passive-aggressive nonsense.  To put it another way, I ask, along with Martin Luther, "Why should my freedom be taken away from me by someone else's superstition and ignorance?"

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You, "snarky"?
I had no idea! :)

One thing that I will sau about the affirming churches is that most of them do subscribe in practice to the separation of church and state on principle. Hence, by and large, those churches do have a tendency to stay out of politics churches (black LGBT affirming churches are an exception to that rule).

Anti-LGBT churches (or their thinly veiled secular frontmen) don't.

I have more ideas on this...but, you know...


Actually...

I've pointed out before that of the 30-odd state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage, and the scores of anti-gay ballot initiatives and referenda across the country, every single one of them has been initiated or actively promoted by a Christian group.  In contrast, I'm not aware of even one pro-gay measure that has come out of a Christian group.  Not one.  

Moreover, the "affirming" churches never seem to speak out against the language and behavior of the actively hateful ones.  It's all very well for churches to claim to be "affirming," but that affirmation never seems to translate into action.  The old phrase "all aid short of help" comes to mind.

Affirming churches have opposed every one of those anti-gay measures and have repeatedly spoken out in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage, as well as open condemned the hateful, anti-gay churches.

The first people arrested in the prop 8 decision protests were Christian clergy.

Affirming Christian churches have been on the front lines, with the rest of the LGBT community, for years now.

It's pronounced "Keeva."


Good point
My church takes part in every rally or protest for LGBT rights that happens in town, and so do a number of other churches.  And it's not just the MCC churches and the Unitarians but also Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians.  Some pastors even take part in these actions at risk of losing their jobs when the denomination is more conservative than the local congregation.  Plus, you can't ignore the good work done by Soulforce.

I think people are unaware of the good work being done by Christians because liberal religious people are routinely ignored by the media.  We don't fit into the "godless liberals vs. conservative Christians" box, so they pretend we don't exist.  Also, as an activist, I personally don't identify myself as a Christian when I speak at a rally or to the press.  Maybe I should, huh?


[ Parent ]
Yes, I think you should.
I think you should identify yourself as a Christian at rallies, etc. if being Christian is a real and important aspect of your life.  I agree with the commenter above that some religious people are quite active on the pro-equality side, but I also think that QScribe is very correct to point out that they pale in number, organization and apparent drive to their anti-equality counterparts.  I have yet to learn of any pro-equality group of clergy or lay people who have organized on their won, without being actively courted by LGBT advocates.  A few have, yes, but few are self-motivated.  And few clergy make it a point to be actively supportive from the pulpit.  

I come from a very religious family, and had to come out to them as an atheist as well as a lesbian.  I am sorry to say that my clergy father and grandfather couldn't be bothered to raise their voices to their anti-gay Christian peers.  Although my grandfather actively discriminated against gays and HIV+, my father is quite ok with my being gay.  But although he knows that his clerical colleagues are the major source of his daughter's pain and suffering in life, he just can't get his lazy ass to say boo about it to them.  And he's retired, so he has nothing to lose professionally by doing so.  It is my observation that my father is, unfortunately, very typical of many affirming religious people.  

I hope someday to see this change, but since I am an atheist, not too many religious people are willing to take criticism of their inaction from me.  To them, my criticism of their inaction as Christians is assumed to be veiled criticism of their very Christianity.  QScribe is right, it is hard to have an honest conversation with many Christians because they are very insecure in the face of atheism.






Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
I'll keep it in mind for next time
Since I do think it's important for religious people to be identified within the ranks of LGBT activists.

I'm a preacher's kid and grandkid (both sides), too, actually.  My dad is also retired and has become much more liberal as he's gotten older.  He has a tendency to speak up for gay rights when it's safe and say nothing at other times, like your dad, I suppose.

The pastors at my current church are super-activists, though, which makes all kinds of difference to me.  I would never attend a church where I was only tolerated.


[ Parent ]
I will help you criticize them
Lurleen, loud and clearly.  Their silence on this is what keeps it going.

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal


[ Parent ]
I don't know...
...a lot of non-Christians, I think, get tired of hearing someone's Christian faith pushed in their face.

Most liberal Christians are highly reluctant to bring their religion into politics, because we feel that the involvement of Christianity has already been so toxic. Liberal Christians, by and large, are as strong of supporters of the separation of church and state as are atheists.

For that reason, it seems more than a bit wrong for progressive, LGBT-friendly Christians to continually identify themselves as such (if they're not clergy) and to argue political positions based on biblical or religious grounds.

Is that what you're saying?

It's pronounced "Keeva."


[ Parent ]
As distasteful as it is...
I think the time has come to fight fire with fire.  The only way to neutralize the vitriolic, poisonous rhetoric of the anti-gay Christian right, is to generate more exposure for the pro-gay Christian left.  Because the liberal Christians have been so reluctant to bring it up, the 'mushy middle' public (and the media) have gotten the idea that to be Christian is to be anti-gay.  This applies equally to Islam, Judaism, and other religious groups as well.  The Squeaky wheel gets the grease.  

[ Parent ]
very well said.
i would just edit that slightly to note that i know of precious few american jews who are actively anti-lgbt.  on the contrary, judaism is the friendliest religion for us, at least as it is practiced by most americans.  islam is a major problem for lgbt people elsewhere in the world, but again, to my knowledge, not in the united states a this time.  the real problem is the christians who represent the vast majority of american religious people, and who are actively anti-lgbt.






Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
Fair enough. :)
Thanks for the clarification.

[ Parent ]
I submit to you...
...that the fundies have been allowed to usurp the whole idea of Christianity by the liberal Christians' reluctance to get involved in politics, aided and abetted by the TV producers' desire for simple shorthand and conflict to fill their "news" programming a là  Crossfire. Ergo, many if not most Americans have no idea that Christianity is not universally hostile to the LGBT community. What is more, the fundies are fine with this because they think they are right and everyone else is wrong and bound for hell.  It doesn't help matters that the anti-queer vitriol gets repeated at propagandistic levels, until it takes on a veneer of "truthiness."

As gayjaybird rightly points out, the only cure for this is more speech, but the liberal Christians have to get over their qualms and speak out repeatedly. The same also applies to other religions. Given the authoritarian streak of the fundies and their wingnut allies, they'd better get started, or they'll be feeling like Martin Niemöller.

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/fa...  

"More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read." -- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest


[ Parent ]
You also have a very good point
I'm not clergy, and I feel that religious arguments should be totally beside the point when it comes to LGBT rights.  It's kind of a fine line.  I want the media and the public in general to recognize that many LGBTs are religious and that it's not queers vs. Christians.  But on the other hand, separation of church and state is really important, and I would probably roll my eyes if someone kept mentioning their faith in a context where it was beside the point!

[ Parent ]
I want to be clear on one thing.
When I said I thought you should mention that you're a Christian, I didn't mean that you should use your Christianity as a rationale for your positions on the law.  Rather, that every pro-equality Christian needs to let it be known loudly and repeatedly that
1.  they are bona fide Christians,
2.  there is no conflict between their religious beliefs and their support of equal protection of the laws, and
3.  even if there were a conflict, the law is in place to protect all citizens equally, not to impose one religious view on everyone.  Thus, the goal of universal civil equality must always take precedence over individual religious beliefs whenever the two conflict.






Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
it wouldn't be such a bad idea...
for LGBT people of faith (and LGBT friendly people of faith) to bring forth a counter argument I never see, but should see.

Conservative Christians often talk about how equal rights for gays tramples their religious rights.....

Thus I think it would help if LGBT(and friendly) people of faith said

Well WHAT ABOUT MY RELIGIOUS RIGHTS?  The current laws directly conflict with my religious rights!!!


[ Parent ]
How, though?
I'm not sure what rights you're talking about, since religious rights would be something decided by the churches themselves.  If a church approves of same-sex marriage, it can perform same-sex ceremonies.  If not, it doesn't have to.  I have no problem with that set up, since civil law has nothing to do with religious marriage in the first place.  Changes in civil law would not automatically result in changes in church law (although we could hope that they would have an influence over time).

[ Parent ]
I think you answered your own question
The truth is, those who use religion as a weapon (Christians of conservative/orthodox/fundamentalist faith) do have a tendency to impugn the faith of those who don't share their views (in particular, they will say that a Christian of a more tolerant denomination or even one within their own who is tolerant isn't Christian).  What those of us who belong to some organized religion (in particular, those of us from the 3 Abrahamic religions) need to do is vociferously push back on those who co-opt religion as their own and try to negate the legitimacy of different views within various organized religions/denominations.  Additionally, those atheists who insist on attacking anyone with any religious belief or affiliation need to realize the damage they are doing to the causes they support by being as overbearing, nasty and judgmental as the religious extremists.

[ Parent ]
We do have to fight from within
Most of the mainline Protestant denominations, for instance, are currently fighting over policy on LGBTs within the church.  It's really important for us and our allies to stand up and fight for those rights.  Though, as I said, those policies are completely separate from civil law.

We can also support Soulforce as a voice for LGBTs within organized religion.


[ Parent ]
Somehow I've missed the ELCA statements in favor of recognizing same-sex marriage
Maybe a start would be the ELCA declaring that they will perform same-sex marriages.

Yes, there are individual churches that will step forward, but the mass and official weight of the denomination is still opposed.  That's why I can't align myself with the ELCA fully--I've already been bitten by the LCMS, and once bitten...

This is what makes pan-polytheism work for me.  There's a great Law of Magic, the Law of True Falsehoods, which says that if something is a paradox, it is probably true.  It fits me quite well to hold both parts of the paradox to be equally true, even while they two parts are in conflict.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #


[ Parent ]
You failed to mention THE most gay supportive mainline Christian denomination of all the United Church of Christ.
Which, by the way, has spoken out FORCEFULLY for gay rights, including equal marriage rights, in resolutions from the national church AND they have spoken out time and again against fundamentalism, anti-gay churches, anti-gay religious individuals and anti-gay laws and policies.  In fact the UCC has challenged Obama himself, a UCC member, on his public stance on gay marriage.

I don't know what more you could possibly ask from ANY organization.  The UCC has done more and has been more supportive of gay people and their rights than the Democratic Party, Barack Obama and even more vocal, supportive and courageous than some gay organizations.

Qscribe's blanket statement, based in ignorance, tarnished an otherwise great commentary.  


[ Parent ]
the denomination as a whole, yes.
but individuals and local churches are generally just as quiet and non-active as other christian allies.  and it is the actions of individuals that will make the ultimate difference, not just the occasional statement of an organization.  a neighbor of mine, a ucc minister who calls himself an ally no less, had the ignorant gall to tell me after prop 8 "well, looks like you folks have more work to do!'.  um, no we have more work to do, you privileged idiot.  this lazy "it's your problem, not mine" attitude is so very common among people who like to feel good about themselves by calling themselves allies, but can't be bothered to stand behind their feel-goodery.






Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
What more could we ask of them?
Simple: action, to back up all their touchy-feely words.  

Gay marriage was made legal in Canada because one of the Christian denominations there (I'm pretty sure it was the UCC, in fact) filed a lawsuit claiming that for the government to refuse to recognize the same-sex marriages they perform constitutes religious discrimination, an unlawful constraint on the free exercise of their religious beliefs.  A couple of years ago I asked a fairly highly-placed official of the American UCC (he was the former head of the local PFLAG chapter and was back in town on a visit) when we might see a similar suit form their church in this country.  They guy quite literally turned pale and ran away from me like I was trying to infect him with the plague.

Such a suit could, obviously, only be filed by a religious group.  It would not only constitute one more challenge to DOMA, it would steal the argument from the religious right.  But it doesn't appear we're going to see one, not from the UCC and not from any other "affirming" Christian group.

"Affirming" worlds only go so far.  Without action to back them up, they're next to worthless.

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
You need to do some research about the UCC
What?!?!  The UCC has filed exactly such a suit.  It did so several months ago in California.  Additionally it has filed amicus briefs for EVERY single marriage equality case that has been filed in state courts.  I am a law librarian that does research in this area and the UCC is remarkable in that it does so much for marriage equality advocacy.

[ Parent ]
can you provide
some informative links, or at least citations?






Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
Yes, please provide links.
If there actually is such a suit, why has it been kept secret?  No such suit has been reported on anywhere in the LGBT blogosphere, that I'm aware of.  And it would be BIG news--unlikely to be ignored if it happened.

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
Some links...
Here's a copy of the amicus brief files in support of petitioners in the Prop. 8 case when it was heard by the CA Supreme Court: http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/co...
--The argument you are wishing the churches make begins on page 6

Also, look at footnote 6 in the appellate decision in In Re Marriage (49 Cal.Rptr.3d 675).  They discuss how the UCC raised the argument that bans on gay marriage infringes on the religious liberty of progressive religious groups.

The alliance of progressive churches also filed for an injunction against prop. 8 after the Supreme Court decision based on similar grounds but it was dismissed.  The argument had already been rejected at the appellate level and was reiterated by the Supreme Court.  I haven't been able to find a copy of the complaint (it's probably on PACER but I don't want to search for it).

You have to remember that the UCC is actually quite small.  This is particularly true for the number of staff working at the Justice and Witness Ministries for the national denomination and the regional conferences.  They do quite a lot for the size of their organization and they see marriage equality as one of their primary social justice goals.  


[ Parent ]
As Lurleen pointed out elsewhere in this thread,
filing an amicus brief is hardly the kind of proactive move under discussion here.  There were scads of them filed in the Prop 8 case, by every organization in sight.  UCC deserves credit for filing such a brief, to be sure.  But if they're really serious about it, they need to make the impingement of their religious liberties the subject of a suit in and of itself--preferably a federal suit--and get a ruling on the merits of that argument.  Otherwise it's easy for judges to overlook or actively ignore it--as obviously happened here; I don't recall that issue being addressed at all in the Prop 8 ruling..  

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
For what purpose?
I don't understand why you feel it would be productive to advance a legal argument that has already been rejected.  As the UCC (and the UUA) have been performing gay marriages since the 1960s it makes it difficult to argue that their religious liberty is being infringed.  Furthermore, the state has already responded to this argument stating that the standard by which marriages are defined is not wholly religious -- and thus permissible.

I fully agree with you that religion is ripe for criticism -- particularly in regards to civil rights.  Religion has been the conservative force opposed to every civil rights movement in history.  But to make this criticism against the UCC seems rather absurd.  The UCC is more progressive on gay issues than most LGBT organizations.  Unlike the HRC (and others) it has never sold out transgender people, or LGBT people of color.  It has consistently held to its principles on gay equality.


[ Parent ]
The history of the Christian Church as far as
persecution, wars and intolerance truly began in the early 4th century. And it has been bloody and oppressive since then. Before that time they preformed same sex marriages, were the first religion to promote women as equal to men within the congregations and were fierce advocates of non-violence.  They also accepted that not everyone believed exactly the same way.
It wasn't until C.E. 250 that there was nearly universal agreement on what Hebrew Scripture would be included with the new Christian Religion.  At that time Christians started to read into the so called anti-gay passages of the Hebrew Scripture and opinions began to change, not only towards gays but women as well.
Before the year 342 when the Christian emperors Constantius and Constans declared same-sex marriage to be illegal, there are several surviving records of the ceremonies. (Yes, ladies and gentlemen, at one time same sex marriage WAS LEGAL and this fact is backed up by the laws overturning it on record in Rome and documentation of the same-sex marriage rites preformed before it was outlawed.)
Then in the year 390, the Roman Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual sex itself to be illegal based on the Old Testament readings, and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be publicly burned alive. The Christian emperor Justinian I (527-565) made homosexuals a scapegoat for problems such as "famines, earthquakes, and pestilences."  It was also about this time that Christians began to believe they were responsible for other peoples salvation.  Jesus stated that it was the work of God that you believe and he also said if they are not against us they are for us.

The early Church did have rules against child abuse and pederasty, but considered adult same sex love to be as holy as opposite sex love.  Gays within the Christian Church were active members.

It isn't just Christianity, but since more people in the US claim to follow that religion here than others, it has the loudest voice.  In Buddhist countries, other than the US, same sex love is NOT accepted, it has become so here because there are so many adherents that are LGBT.  Islam is not accepting either, nor is Hinduism, and my parents are anti-LGBT as well as their other issues of hate while being devout Atheists.  

Now on to the "broad brushes" Since I am the one who stated that broad brushes are used:
This is the original comment I replied to:

This is how it works when you're a Christian
You "confess" your "sin" -- and then go right on "sinning." You can do that because the "son" of the Big Invisible Bi-Polar Daddy Who Lives in the Sky "looooves" you.

That is a fairly broad brush no matter how you slice it up. And Big Invisible Bi-Polar Daddy Who Lives in the Sky is kinda new, it is usually the Magic Sky Fairy, or some variation.

I personally do not look to God to be my magic wish granter, nor do I believe that just because early theocracies believed certain things about the world that it is just the way it is.  It does not offend me that others do not believe in God, and I even understand why you are offended by people including myself, that do.  If I were to look at the actions of a fair majority of people who claim to believe in God, I wouldn't either.  But I do not see them as speaking for God anymore than I see myself speaking for God.  To me, to claim to know the mind of God is ultimate ego.  But I do believe there is a higher power if you wish, and I believe that is great comfort in knowing that.

There is a new book out called "How God Changes Your Brain" by neurosurgeon, Andrew Newberg, M. D., who after 12 years of research on the human brain, explains how much believing in God and the practice of worship, and meditation on God or a higher power, improves our mental well being, functions and overall health. He notes that it does not matter the "religion" that one believes but in believing and meditating or praying, there are certain areas of our brain that actually grow, our reasoning functions and higher thinking abilities increase in other areas as well. He shows how there are measurable physical differences between believers and non believers and he also shows how people who are religious and who hate, suffer actual brain damage. Irreversible brain damage.  People who hate in general also suffer lesser degrees of damage, but damage none the less.

What is extremely offensive to me is that believers do not stand up and oppose the haters, no matter the religion, because they are afraid of hurting the faith of others.  If that faith is wrong, cruel, based on an ancient theocracy and full of hate, then it needs to be hurt, and it needs to be destroyed. And when you point out those things it is not wrong.


"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal


Can you quote me a SINGLE verse from the suttas, or a single word from the Buddha, against homosexuality?

The non-acceptance of homosexuality in Buddhist countries has NOTHING to do with Buddhism.  Comparing homophobia in Buddhist countries to homophobia in "Christian" countries is like comparing apples and oranges.  Homophobia in Christian countries is almost ENTIRELY attributable to their "Judeo-Christian" beliefs and traditions whereas the homophobia in "Buddhist" countries is based more on deeply rooted traditions of family and heirs and has manifested IN SPITE OF Buddhism.

Even when the Dalai Lama, the monk leader of the SMALLEST, LEAST Buddhist sect of Buddhism, made his unfortunate comment that homosexuality didn't produce offspring so therefore was inappropriate for Buddhists, he was challenged to provide scriptural basis for his claim.  He had to admit that he had NONE and that his statement was based on his own PERSONAL OPINION and NOT founded in the teachings of the Buddha.

The only people that the Buddha proscribed against homosexual behavior was MONKS, who aren't allowed to have ANY kind of sex, homosexual or heterosexual.  There is even evidence that one of the Buddha's top disciples was a celebate homosexual.


[ Parent ]
Oh and one more thing...
just like in India and other southeast asian countries (and African countries), a lot of the homophobia is a direct result of English, French and Dutch colonialization.

Homophobia was imported by, intitutionalized and legally mandated by European, "Christian" homophobes.


[ Parent ]
It isn't just ...
In Buddhist countries, other than the US, same sex love is NOT accepted, it has become so here because there are so many adherents that are LGBT. Islam is not accepting either, nor is Hinduism.

Nor the Baha'i Faith ("The Emerging Global Religion of Spiritual and Social Transformation"):

http://revolked2.blogspot.com/...

http://www.religioustolerance....


Hinduism was much more accepting in its early days
back before India was colonized by the British.  In South India, temples were covered with images of couples having sex, including same-sex couples.  Many of those images have now been destroyed by the reactionary Hindus of recent decades.  Their statements that homosexuality is a Western phenomenon and not part of Indian culture are false, and they're trying to hide the evidence.

[ Parent ]
That is true
Perhaps with the overturning of the anti gay laws in India, it will return to acceptance.

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal


[ Parent ]
I wasn't sure..
Thank you for the links

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal


[ Parent ]
there's some irony in the Baha'i there
since they seem to be treated worse than Jews in Iran. . .

That being said, at least you won't find the Baha'i pulling the Mormon stunt of funding the removal of rights from a group because they find that group morally repugnant.  The Baha'i faith explicit proscribes involvement in partisan politics.


[ Parent ]
Not quite ...
That being said, at least you won't find the Baha'i pulling the Mormon stunt of funding the removal of rights from a group because they find that group morally repugnant.

Once more, please see:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com...

Recently, the Baha'i community of Uganda participated in an interfaith effort to deport an American journalist for covering a LGBTI  human rights event called, "Let Us Live in Peace."  The Baha'is of Uganda also advocated the arrest of all LGBTI individuals in Uganda for their "immorality."  Please see the following links for more information:

Just follow the links.

Also see:

http://bahaisonline.net/index....

A Ugandan organization that represents the rights of gays, lesbians and bisexuals says they are deprived of their rights by the country's law that makes homosexuality illegal.  The comments follow an anti-gay protest in the Ugandan capital Kampala on Tuesday, which drew more than 100 demonstrators.

The rights organization, Sexual Minorities in Uganda (SMUG) says gays, lesbians and bisexuals in Uganda have suffered abuse, neglect and violence, and they want to be left alone.

SMUG representative Laurence Misedah said these people are not doing anything wrong.

"We are not harming anyone," he said.  "We are requesting them to let us live in peace.  We are just trying to let them know that what we are requiring is understanding, and for them to give us space so that we talk to them, because most of them are talking out of ignorance."

Misedah was speaking in reaction to an anti-gay demonstration Tuesday by a coalition of Christian, Muslim and Bahai groups. The protesters carried placards with anti-gay messages and demanding the deportation of an American journalist, Katherine Roubos, who is an intern with the Daily Monitor newspaper in Kampala. She had been assigned to cover gay issues in Uganda as part of her internship.

Last week, she covered a news conference held by SMUG, the first of its kind in the country, where the group demanded recognition. The conference and the subsequent news coverage triggered the reaction from the religious groups, who say they are fighting against a campaign to promote homosexuality in the country, which they say is brought in by outsiders.

But Misedah says homosexuality in Uganda does not come from abroad.

"We have people from deep within the villages who do not even speak English and they haven't had any exposure to [or] with any white person or any Western ideas," he added.  "They should accept us just the way our forefathers did because same sex relationships were in the African tradition."

Listen to streaming audio of this report:

This is from the book "The Baha'i Faith in America" by William Garlington (p. 171):

[Gay and lesbian Baha'is] are members of a religion that often represents itself as being socially progressive, yet their community differs from that of other progressive religious denominations in the United States (for example, Unitarians and Episcopalians) when it comes to the question of homosexuality. In practice, this means that gays and lesbians can either leave the Baha'i community, make concerted efforts to change their sexual orientation, or remain closeted when it comes to expressing their sexual preferences.

There is an independent Baha'i community in the United States that actually welcomes gay and lesbian singles and couples. This particular community is, unfortunately, regarded as a community of "Covenant-breakers" (i.e., heretics). Baha'is are obligated to avoid association with covenant-breakers, and most will refuse even to look at literature from any such group or individual. Covenant-breakers are regarded as having a "spiritual disease" that is potentially contagious, so the obligation to shun is taken very seriously. Baha'u'llah himself, the founder of the Baha'i Faith, abolished the whole idea of ritual uncleanliness, but his followers have resurrected the idea of the covenant-breaker as being cursed and unclean.


[ Parent ]
isn't this action as direct a violation of their covenant
as homosexuality is? how disappointing.  

[ Parent ]
Would You Waste Your Time Debating With Eric Cartman?
I wouldn't.

And this is why I won't waste my time with them.  For that matter, they should just forget using the cross as their symbol, and replace it with Eric Cartman's face.


recent issues
http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/issues...

http://www.ucc.org/synod/resol...






Claim to fame: Posted first PHB diary to be demoted


Another
http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/issues...




Claim to fame: Posted first PHB diary to be demoted


[ Parent ]
There are a couple specific irrelevancies that Christians use
On Ray Comfort's blog, you are being uncivil if you use any profanity, or if you fail to capitalize God or Jesus.  Of course referring to the Christian story as a fairy tale is uncivil. But Ray himself can say that as an atheist, your life has no meaning and that you cannot be trusted because morality is impossible without God.  That is not uncivil because he doesn't cuss, I guess.

You are wind beneath my wings!
(sigh) Pam... You had me at hello...

Thank you for such an amazing post.. When I grow up I wanna be just like you --except for the lesbian thing. (As a gay man, I'm not sure my boyfriend would like that so much...)


Translation
"You're being uncivil"

=

"I have no legitimate response to your arguments."


Great Post Q..
I always love your comments and you have taught me alot. Thanks for the history of this hatred. Truthandlove, you also bring up some valid points.  

Important article. I have a few thoughts.
Of course Christianity like any religion and any belief in general should be regarded as a fair subject for criticism and disagreement. We really have it backwards when sexual orientation is a subject about which people can disagree, but it's viewed as uncivil to criticize religion. The former is essentially innate (Does anyone consider the statement - I disagree with the color of your eyes - a reasonable one?)and the latter is chosen theological doctrine. It's clear to me that homophobes in this country are piggy-backing on race by trying to make religious belief co-equal with it, in an effort to intimidate us and silence us, and we do our cause great harm (to the delight of our opponents) by taking the bait and making religion, rather than the homophobia itself, the enemy. At any rate, actual theologians in the Christian tradition and other religious traditions would regard the sentiment that religious belief is beyond disputation and uncivil as totally absurd. Nothing is more worthy of dispute than the science (in the traditional sense of the word) that deals with ultimate things. How could the Protestant Reformation or the different schools of Buddhism have arisen without religious disagreement? Furthermore, it's impossible to draw a clear line between religion and metaphysics (the philosophy that deals with ultimate things). We're blinded and crippled here (gays and straights, homophobes and non-homophobes alike) by seeing things through the narrow prism of our modern world'totally dominant (and ironically enough) post-religious, scientific (as in physical science), materialistic, world view that doesn't take theology, philosophy (in the true sense of the word) and religious speculation seriously ENOUGH. Hence the phenomenon in modern American culture, above all others, that whatever irrational absurdity you want to believe in, for whatever personal and psychological reasons, can be called your "religion". All this aside, I think we gays make a serious mistake when we adopt the simplistic attitude that all religion by its very nature is homophobic. It's not true first of all. Jesus didn't bother to say anything about sexual orientation despite living in a time and place dominated by the Greeks where it was commonplace. Did the ostensible Son of God just not get around to it? Buddhist scripture has nothing whatsoever to say on the subject and not by mere omission - all desire whatever the object is regarded as fundamentally identical. The fact that so many people in the world today use their different religions to justify homophobia is irrelevant. Religions have always been misused for aims that have no true grounding in their doctrine - for nationalism and political power in general, most prominently. Homophobia can and, more often than not, does come first, with religion simply being used to justify it. Homophobia exported by Western colonialism (above all the British) also seems to be a factor in all this. Most non-Western societies made room for homosexuals in one way or another until they were colonized. It's an easy attitude to adopt, with a big pay-off, if a culture wants to appear "civilized" in the eyes of overlords whose own culture for whatever reasons has become homophobic - much easier than uprooting many other traditions. It's significant that Thais to this day, in my own experience with them and their culture, remain puzzled by anti-gay hatred and Thailand was the only country in Indochina not to be colonized. Finally, another reason for us to eschew a knee-jerk condemnation of religion is that a true thorough-going atheism (philosophical materialiam) will never satisfy most human beings (including many "intellectuals" and many gay people like myself) since it essentially reduces existence to a profound absurdity.  

Correction
Meant to say Jesus said nothing about "homosexual" orientation. Long posting - tried to get everything in.

[ Parent ]
You should do a little bit of research before you post an easily disproven bit of ignorance for the world to read...
"Moreover, the "affirming" churches never seem to speak out against the language and behavior of the actively hateful ones.  It's all very well for churches to claim to be "affirming," but that affirmation never seems to translate into action.  The old phrase "all aid short of help" comes to mind."

You clearly know NOTHING about the United Church of Christ or you wouldn't have made such an ignorant statement.

I suggest you do a little bit of research before you embarrass yourself again.

If only the HRC had been as courageous and outspoken for gay rights as the UCC has been we might have won the battle for fairness, justice and equality years ago.

ucc.org

godisstillspeaking.org


Good gosh, I am such an ignorant fellow.
I confess it.  I know nothing about all the proactive things the UCC has done for the LGBT community.  

Could you help me with my research, please?  Point me to the information about all of the pro-gay ballot initiatives that have originated from the UCC, to counter the ones that have come from less "affirming" churches.  I'm sure there must be some, or you wouldn't be calling me ignorant for not knowing about them.

And please give me a link to the court case they've filed demanding that the same-sex unions they perform be recognized by the government, because the current state of affairs impinges on their freedom of religion.  A church in Canada filed such a lawsuit, and it led to same-sex marriage being legalized in that country.  I'm sure the UCC has filed an analogous suit here in the US, but I'm such a total ignoramus I just don't know about it.

Please, oh please, Zeke, enlighten this poor ignorant dunce!

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
Nothing will satisfy you...
You have a single definition of what qualifies as sufficient action. No church is going to meet that definition. Fortunately, you are not the sole arbiter of the matter.

[ Parent ]
Here you go...
http://www.ucc.org/ucnews/apr0...

11/18/08 L.A. Times -- "Brown urges Prop. 8 review"
"A wide array of groups and local governments have urged the state high court in six lawsuits -- two more were filed Monday -- to overturn the measure. The lawsuits contend that Proposition 8 illegally revised the state Constitution by altering fundamental constitutional principles.
The latest anti-Proposition 8 lawsuit was filed by the California Council on Churches, the Episcopal Bishop of California, the General Synod of the United Church of Christ, the Progressive Jewish Alliance and the Unitarian Universalist Assn. of Congregations."

6/17/08 Christian Century -- "The pastor behind the gay  marriage ruling"
"The United Church of Christ, which joined a brief in the California case, approved overwhelmingly in its 2005 convention a resolution supporting legalization of same-sex marriages. Bill McKinney, president of the UCC-related Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley, said the seminary "celebrates this historic decision."

If you'd like any of the amicus briefs the UCC has filed I can email them to you.  They file one for virtually all marriage equality cases.  ;)


[ Parent ]
your first link
talks about two gay plaintiffs in WA who happened to also be UCC ministers.  this is not the same as the UCC filing a lawsuit.

your last quote (w/o link - please provide next time) is about an amicus brief UCC filed.  that's nice they did that, but that doesn't put them in any special category.  in the prop 8 challenge, everyone and their brother filed an amicus brief.

your 11/18/08 quote looks interesting.  can you provide a link to anything useful?  even to the article you're quoting?  just pasting up unattributed stuff is not going to win converts.  if you want to make the point that UCC is really stepping up to the plate, please link to court documents or reports.






Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
To speak a word of illrepute is never an act of civility
... or some would lead you to believe. The truth is, there is no word or phrase that is powerful enough to truly be considered an act of incivility. Being that uncivil behavior is largely subjective, it is difficult or near impossible, to find a universally accepted definition. The only weapon one has against a perceived threat of uncivil behavior, is sadly, to grow up and develop a thick skin. There is nothing more uncivil in a civilized society than to demand the silence of one mans whose views do not agree with your own.

An earlier post by Pam went on to discuss how she felt that other blogs and their use of the word "tranny" as a derogatory term, was offensive to transgendered people. As a comedian who often uses everything under the sun to expose societies weakness to words, I disagreed. Sure they were being playful, but they meant no actual harm to transgendered people, it was merely a joke. I am often terrified because I fear the world is becoming so overwhelmed with PC attitudes that we are no longer able to openly laugh at ourselves, lest we be branded bigots. Nothing is more apparent of this fact as we are adding new letters to LGBT on a daily basis.

Richard Dawkins explains it quite beautifully in his book, "The God Delusion" when he express worry over the notion that disagreeing with someones faith is becoming widely accepted as a societal sin, something all civil people strive to avoid. If I were to tell you that I was a fairyologist, you would be rightly expected to cast doubt on my credentials and question the validity of my arguments. If you were a man of science and reason, every fiber in your body would draw attention to the, seemingly, illogic nature of such a profession. Does this make you intolerant or a hater of all things fairy? I would argue that it does not, but that it simply calls into question a very valid response to something that can easily be described as illogical. There is nothing logical about the christian faith, in terms of its mythology or dogma, making such a statement is neither inherently uncivil or intolerant. It is simple a matter of absolute truth from the standpoint of a scientific and reasonable mind. That is not to say that faith is a bad thing, simply that to question faith is acceptable and an important part of human growth.

For the purposes of clarification- If you were to tell me that 2000 years ago a man named Beluth built a massive floating temple and flew it to the heavens to escape the wrath of an all consuming global fire, you would consider my story to be one of myth or allegory. If I were to expand upon this and tell you that this fire was create by Baal, the creator god of the old world and that his actions were just, in so much as that human kind deserved such a thing, you would also be correct in assuming my story to be either personally created or borrowed from myth. There is nothing inherently evil about classifying either of these stories as fairy tales, because in your particular mindset, they meet all the requirements to be deemed as such. Even if there is personal malice in defining them as fairy tales, it is still not an act of incivility. One can argue it to be rude or off putting, but uncivil? I would think not. If you were to replace the names in this story and alter the deeds slightly, you would have the basic mythology of Christianity and therefor be well within your right to classify such ideas as a fairy tale or allegory. If one were to find offense in this act, it would easily be argued that their own faith in their particular religion obviously needed sounder structural support, if its foundations could so easily be assaulted by the words of an atheist or non believer.

I believe the saying we are looking for is,

"And so they lambasted me as a heathen when I turned away from their gods. They called me a devil when I questioned their faith. They ridiculed my person when I dared to evolve. But they cowered in self righteous indignation when I asked them to prove it."

Nothing is more dangerous than the unexamined mind and nothing more wasteful than a mind that is incapable of self examination or one that falters from the queries of others.

All in all it comes down to simple understanding. It isnt that people honestly feel these questions or valid definitions are uncivil, its that they stir uneasy and unanswerable questions and feelings within the recipient. When the first act you make is self defense, when questioned or mocked for your faith, its not a telling sign of the one asking the question, but a matter of your own. To be so easily destroyed by the words of my own, exposes your personal views as unfounded and undeniably weak. If I am to be asked to respect your right to faith, you must respect my right to see your faith as childish, simple and incredibly offensive to the absolute complex and unknowing beauty that is the nature of God. God, so much, as the laws of the universe and reality can be described.

The same goes with people who become ill at the sound of racial slurs or words, whether they be in absolute jest or purposefully hateful and demeaning. One can choose to walk away and accept the foolishness of the speaker or fall to pieces in indignation that one would have the nerve to use terms that so easily overpowered you. In the end, by being so easily shaken you have either given the speaker the power they wanted or proven how powerful the control that human sound has over you.

If you are ever to herald yourself as a lover of freedom and a civilized individual, you must protect the rights of others to speak their mind, no matter how vile or how offensive you may find them. As much as Gawker has the right to the word tranny, no matter their intent, so you have the right define modern day christianity a fairy tale. The only truth to any argument here is simple.

"I may decry the words of my enemy and those of my friend, but any action leading to the silencing of their voice is the only true crime that either of us can commit."

Thanks for letting me borrow a soap box :)

-Justice


Theocracy is the death of both politics and religion
Religion ought to be an entirely personal experience, between the believer and the faith. Proselytism is just a sign that the believer lacks confidence in their position; a truly confident believer wouldn't care if anyone else believed them or not. I mean, if you're dead certain its the one true way, then fuck it, do you need others to affirm that?

And yeah, I know the counterargument-'they just care so much about people they've never met-they want to make sure they are saved too!' However, if they have any respect at all for free-will, and any respect for the idea that not making the free choice to believe or not believe is the thing that makes faith real or just going thru the motions, and given that there really is no part of America where anyone hasn't been exposed to christianity to the point where they can make that choice, they'd back off and let people come to them, not foce their crap onto other people.

Politics, by contrast MUST exist in the public space. By definition, it requires public buy-in to exist. Even anti-democratic regimes require public buy-in: any dictator without any followers is about as influential/powerful as your average crazy homeless street preacher. The truth be told, any government, no matter how grandiosely it protrays itself, would fall apart instantly the minute the governed cease to believe in it.

That said, if you mix politics with religion, you get a strange, perverse animal that cannot long survive-something that lacks the free choice required of true faith, something that claims omnipotence-and the minute it fails to be omnipotent, which is inevitable-it falls apart because people realize they've been had.

Christians often wince upon hearing statistics that young people are increasingly critical of christianity. They see their empty pews, the difficulty in recruiting preachers, pastors and priests under the age of 40, and they realize what that means for their future. What they fail to realize is why that is happening to them. They can blame it on supernatural forces-it's the devil's fault!-but that doesn't really solve much. No matter how much they berate their devil, until they look at their own behavior, they cannot long hope to last.

My dad was a steelworker
My mom was a kitchen girl
and that's why
I'm a socialist.
-from an old song I used to hum to myself


Since this thread seems to be winding down,
let me add a final thought or two.

In The Christians as the Romans Saw Them (Yale University Press, 1984) historian Robert L. Wilken made a thorough and compelling survey of the way Roman writers and philosophers dealt with the early Christian church.  He makes the case that, despite imperial disfavor, a large number of them tried actively to engage the Christians in a dialogue about their new belief system and its implications.  Among them were Celsus, Porphyry, the emperor Julian the Apostate and even, somewhat surprisingly, the physician Galen.  The Christians refused to be engaged in any substantial way, instead meeting every attempt to discuss their beliefs with cries of "Persecution!" "Intolerance!" and the like.

This Christian refusal to engage in any serious examination of Christianity and its place in society continues to this day, as evidenced by some of the responses here.  If you try to argue, as I do, that even though there are a great many good individual Christians the church itself is an impediment to progress, the response is, "You're wrong!  There are a lot of good Christian individuals!"  (For the record, I have nothing but respect for a lot of the regulars here who self-identify as Christians.  Cindik  comes to mind at once, but there are a lot of others.)  When I wonder why the "affirming" churches--at the institutional lever--never seem to back up their good words with action, the response is, "But they say lots of good things!"

I was hoping for better here.  But the hope of engaging Christian apologists in a meaningful dialog is a fruitless now as it was in Roman times, it seems.  No criticism of Christianity will ever be granted any legitimacy by the church's partisans, apparently, and that's that.

End of discussion.  Sadly.

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


To make the finer point
I could add a few names to that list, you know. (The letters between Pliny the younger and the Emperor Trajan on the subject of the Christians are classic)

But I do want to round out this picture a bit...

Had the Christians remained "Jewish Christians" or something of the kind, they would not have incurred the imperil disfavor that they did. Ancient Rome was a society of considerable religious tolerance and there was actually a set of laws in places that excepted the Jews from some Roman laws regarding the public worship of the gods. Even the Romans, for example, were shocked that the Emperor Caligula attempted to bulid a statue of himself as a god in the Temple in Jerusalem.

Even the Romans were outraged by Caligula's action.

Once the Christians separated themselves from the Jews as a religion, that invited the imperial disfavor of the Romans. Not because of the religion, per se, but because it was anew religion.


[ Parent ]
Yale, Princeton, Duke and Harvard
all have "divinity schools", as if superstitious theology was a serious progressive field of study such as medicine or science. Give me a break.  Theology based on ancient "holy books" is not progressive and will never be.  For the amount of time and expense involved a theology student could be a
medical doctor or surgeon really helping people, not healing their so called and non-existent "souls".   Religion is so wrong.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

[ Parent ]
Harvard was started
as a religious school because the puritans believed in scholarship.  just fyi.  






Lurleen on Twitter


[ Parent ]
I make a distinction between Christians, and Charitianists
Christians are the "good ones," while the Christianists (including Joe Ratzinger, Fred Phelps and all the others destined for final judgment as being among the goats) are the "bad ones."

Since becoming the official religion of the Roman empire in the 4th century, Christianity has been intertwined with western civilization as a source for religious, legal, moral and social thinking and interaction.

Secularization has gone a long way toward freeing western society, at least in much of Europe, from the control of Christianity, but it will not eradicate the roots.

I have no problem with those who prefer to reject Christianity (after all, much of it is based on myth as strange as anything conjured up by Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Mary Baker Eddy, Jdge Rutherford, Ron Hubbard, Elijah Muhammed or any ancient shaman).

I personally prefer to preach a brand of Christianity that is LGBT inclusive - and to deny that those so-called Christians (the Christianists) who see us as immoral or evil are Christian at all.

I grant that sometimes it is tough finding sacred scripture being properly understood or interpreted - or translated correctly.

For example, in 1 Samuel 18, Jerome's Vulgate fudges the translation of one verse (v 20), leading Douay-Rheims, King James and other Vulgate-based English translations into confusion.  Darby went to "original sources" and correct the verse - as does ASV.  Properly translated, the verse indicates that Saul considers David to be his son in law a second time when David marries Michal - the first time being David's "covenant" with Jonathan in verse 3.

The mistranslations abound - and the misinterpretations also abound.  There is enough scriptural evidence that makes it clear that it is at least arguable that Christianity is not intrinsically anti-LGBT, and that those who misuse scripture to support cissexist and heterosexist bigotry are not really Christian at all.

This approach works for me - as a cradle Catholic who spent three years in a seminary studying for the priesthood.  From the time I was a teenager, I started to unravel the theology - at first, it seemed to be only the moral theology, but once enough of that had come apart, I realized that I no longer had to accept those aspects of Roman Catholic faith that I had come to accept only on the basis of "suspending my disbelief."  (This has gotten me to a point somewhere in the vicinity of Unitarian Universalism, though I am not affiliated with any institutional church at this point.)

Even when I recognize the myths as myth, the myths explain a lot - though not necessarily the message the myths are intended to convey.

When dealing with Christianists, I get more traction with Isaiah 56, Matthew 19:12 and Acts 8 (all of which relate to trans people). than I would just referring to their beliefs as silly.  There are people out there in the Christianist camp who are not evil, but only misled by their religious leaders.  They may not abandon their core beliefs, but perhaps they can eventually see that anti-LGBT aspects of what they've been taught are not part of their "core" of faith.



[ Parent ]
Wow...
I was really happy to read this post. Though I could get into trouble for this, I've long thought that GLBT people shouldn't be Christians, mostly for the same reasons.

I don't agree that gay-affirming churches have done nothing -- they have supported pro-gay initiatives and spoken out against anti-gay bigotry -- however, they are a small minority and a new development. For almost its entire history, Christianity has been vehemently and often murderously anti-gay.

By practicing Christianity, gay and pro-gay people provide a ground for anti-gay Christians to stand on, but though they can change a few people's minds, there's little they can do to change Christianity on an institutional level. I don't expect the Southern Baptist Convention, African Anglican churches or Russian Orthodox patriarchs to become pro-gay in the near future. Even if they did, there would always be justification in the Bible for anti-gay bigotry.

Trying to convince anti-gay Christians about what Leviticus 18:22 and other Bible verses "really" say about homosexuality is, in the grand scheme of things, an exercise in futility because of how they've historically been interpreted, and they're always open to interpretation anyway.

However, I don't agree with the remarks that someone above made about Buddhism. Buddhism certainly isn't the most sex-positive religion, but it's not anti-gay, and hasn't been historically. The anti-gay views in traditionally Buddhist countries today are a result of colonialism and Western cultural influence. Homosexuality was widely condoned before the arrival of colonialism, which is readily apparent from Chinese and Japanese history.

Anyway, I think that if gay people want to believe in the Abrahamic God, there's always deism, and there are plenty of explicitly or at least historically gay-friendly religions out there to satisfy people's need for faith in general. Buddhism has a lot of the same ideas as Christianity, while pagan religions are generally pro-gay. I'm not necessarily calling on people to just abandon their beliefs, but it would make life a lot easier if they weren't constantly having to justify themselves to anti-gay "brothers in Christ."


There's a difference between reasonable argument and insult
I would never argue that it's not okay to question the validity of beliefs, or the consistency of doctrine, especially when reasoning out what your OWN beliefs are. And in philosophical discussions, it's perfectly acceptable to argue that there can't be a god, or that the Christian god doesn't make sense. It's also necessary to call people - Christian or otherwise - on their prejudices, regardless of what they use to justify those prejudices.

But when you dismiss religion as fairy tales, you are saying that your way of thinking is better than other people's. You're saying that another person's way of finding meaning in life is totally invalid. That is horribly insulting! It's one thing to call Biblical stories myths: they are myths, from an objective, social-scientific standpoint. But that does NOT mean that they are frivolous or unmeaningful. The word myth should be used descriptively, not derisively.

One thing you might want to think about is that when you claim that religion is naturally opposed to reason, and that religion is inherently prejudiced, you lose any opportunity you might have had to convince a religious person that they should be more reasonable and less prejudiced. You excuse them for their prejudice and give legitimacy to their use of religion (rather than reason) to inform their political choices. I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of what you're trying to do.

I have actually written two posts about this issue recently. I would be honored if you'd read them: Plea for Responsible Atheism and What Does God Have to Do with Sexuality or Gender".

Living deliberately with passion and sense: Truth & Beauty Bombs


I disagree, in some ways
I would argue that dismissing someones faith as a fairy tale is not actually insulting, its a statement of opinion. Telling someone that Mother Goose is a fairy tale is not way offensive not does it demean the lessons or morals inherent in the story itself. No one said that Christian myths were meaningless or useless, just that they be designated as what they are. Some people do not like the term gay or homosexual, but if you are attracted to the same sex, you are gay/homosexual. Our own personal feelings about the definition of a word are, in all honesty, meaningless. A word means what it means, whether we like it or not. We see a lot of this recently with people complaining that they dont like the term gay, but prefer the word queer. It doesnt matter what you call yourself, you are what both words mean in this society. Disagreeing with said word does not change its meaning, it just shows a futile argument.

I understand what you are saying and I am sure a great many people will agree with you. It may very well be the life that I have lived, but I always approach problems with a no nonsense, no bullshit stance. It may be cruel to many, but I think when we strip away personal feelings and handle purely the facts, we can better handle the entanglement of feeling afterwords. I could be very wrong in this assumption and you are more than free to disagree.

I dont think all religion is naturally opposed to reason, but I think it would be easily argued that most are. The three desert dogmas, are without a doubt, diametrically opposed to reason and logic. I dont think anyone alive could logically and honestly defend Christianity as a religion based on reason or fluid in reasonable thought. If a christian finds this offensive or feels its an error, I suppose those are problems they must come to accept on their own. Many times when people say religion is without reason its not a matter of trying to convert their faith to atheism, but a matter of fact or repetition of opinion. I think it would be rather cruel to go out of ones way to destroy the faith of another human being, no matter how great one may feel the benefits are.

You bring up some wonderful points however, thank you for bringing this to the table.  


[ Parent ]
The phrase "fairy tale" is a problem
"dismissing someones faith as a fairy tale is not actually insulting, its a statement of opinion."

It's an opinion being presented in, as you yourself put it, a dismissive manner. It's belittling. You can present an opinion that faith is irrelevant or even offensive without intentionally choosing labels like "fairy tale" which impugn the believer's maturity, for example, and if your intent is to create or maintain any kind of relationship with the believer in question, you'd be wise to do so.


[ Parent ]
To be fair, I wasnt questioning whether it was rude, simply that the definition fits :)
I suppose thats the question then. I dont think whether you wish to keep a relationship with them or not is even important. Simply that, contrary to how it may make them feel or how it affects their view of your thoughts, by definition, it IS a fairy tale.

Yet again, I am not concerned with personal feeling or subjectivity on the definition of the words "Fairy Tale". Simply that the use of that word to describe a faith is not an act of incivility nor is it an intrinsically offensive choice.

If I were trying to discuss faith with someone and I wished to persuade them to my side of the fence, I would choose my words carefully. But yet again, I was simply stating that the term fits, whether the recipient likes it or not. I obviously wouldnt start a conversation by insulting someone if I wished to engage them on a personal level.

I happen to be a very blunt and a "get to it" kinda of person, so that may very well be a thought formed from my own experiences. I am in no way saying anyone here is wrong in their views, except on the matter of whether faith is a fairy tale. Being that civility is, although pretty clearly defined, a subjective term.. one may feel that being remotely insulting or demeaning would be an act of incivility no matter the intent.  


[ Parent ]
So, what is a fairy tale, then?
A story about talking bears who make porridge is a fairy tale, right?  But a story about a talking snake who pushes apples is not, right?  And a story about a malevolent whale called Monstro is a fairy tale, but a story about a malevolent sea beast called Behemoth is not, right?  Can you explain the difference, please?  

What is the criterion that makes one fantastic folk narrative a fairy tale and another similar one not?  When the Grimm Brothers collected old European folk tales and called them "fairy tales," no one minded in the least.  Why should a collection of Hebrew folk tales be regarded any differently?

And please don't fall back on the claim that it's religion and therefore beyond analysis.  The simple fact that a lot of people may believe in a given story does not make it anything other than fanciful nonsense.  


The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
Well
A fairy tale is a fictional story that may feature folkloric characters such as fairies, goblins, elves, trolls, giants, and talking animals, and usually enchantments, often involving a far-fetched sequence of events. In modern-day parlance, the term is also used to describe something blessed with princesses, as in "fairy tale ending" (a happy ending)[1] or "fairy tale romance", though not all fairy tales end happily. Colloquially, a "fairy tale" or "fairy story" can also mean any far-fetched story. Fairy tales commonly attract young children since they easily understand the archetypal characters in the story.

From wikipedia, of course

Some but not all of the stories in the Bible would fit under that definition. You also have "wisdom literature" in the Bible, for example (Ecclesiates), books of law (the infamous Leviticus), some history (the Jewish exile in Babylonia was real and is attested to in other historical sources).

The Bible is more like a psychedelic encyclopedia of truth, mythology, and, yes, fairy tales.


[ Parent ]
It's Not about the Difference
It has nothing to do with whether the definition fits and everything to do with the context in which that particular choice of phrasing is used, which is my point. Embracing rhetoric -- and that's what this is -- is great for academic discourse, but not a reasonable or feasible tactic for talking to people, especially if the objective is to create alliances.

The fact of the matter is that people of faith are the majority in the U.S. and widening the gulf, or perceived gulf, between people of faith and queer people and causes is not going to get us as queer people further along the path towards equality and respect. There are better ways to approach people of faith and whether we like it or not, that's what we've got to do.


[ Parent ]
No.
When I use evidence and reason to come to a conclusion, then my way of thinking is infinitely superior to that of people who are relying on unfounded myths and superstitions. This is just common sense.

Furthermore, criticizing fairy tales as a way of deriving conclusions about the natural world is not the same as saying they are "frivolous or unmeaningful".

George Lucas' Star Wars is a myth. I wouldn't call it unmeaningful because it is a fairly complex and culturally important fantasy epic that millions of people are entertained and inspired by. But if I attempted to say the Force is real and we should all believe in it, that would pretty much make me f'ing crazy.

I wouldn't say religion in general is inherently prejudiced, because there are hundreds of different religions, and it depends on the religion.

A religion such as Wicca, in which the fundamental ideology is "an' it harm none, do what ye will", is not inherently prejudice at all.

However the three Abrahamic religions are inherently prejudice because of the primitive, bigoted ideologies they are based on. Namely, they are archaic patriarchies in which God has "chosen" certain races/cultures as his favorite; and violence and intolerance are plastered across every other page of their holy books.

And unfortunately for us, most people are Christians, not Wiccans.


[ Parent ]
Well, actually ...
A religion such as Wicca, in which the fundamental ideology is "an' it harm none, do what ye will", is not inherently prejudice at all.

See for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

Gardner was rumored to be homophobic by Lois Bourne, one of the High Priestesses of the Bricket Wood coven:

   "Gerald was homophobic. He had a deep hatred and detestation of homosexuality, which he regarded as a disgusting perversion and a flagrant transgression of natural law....'There are no homosexual witches, and it is not possible to be a homosexual and a witch' Gerald almost shouted. No one argued with him."

It is probably true that most modern Wiccan traditions do not discriminate against gays and lesbians. But those Wiccans who identify themselves as members of "British Traditional Wicca" ("Keep Wicca Traditional!") certainly do. Their views are rooted in the tradition of "polarity magic" that lies beneath the "Western Mystery Tradition." (I don't believe in any of this myself, I'm just passing it on.)


[ Parent ]
The problem is...
As someone observed earlier in the thread, there is a big difference between respecting someone's right to his/her own beliefs and respecting the beliefs themselves.  If I were to construct a personal mythology based on my imagined encounters with beings from the planet Grugfloo, that would be my right.  If I started to claim that we should base all of our laws on what the Grugflooians told me, I'd be out of line and would be told so by everyone in sight--starting with the Christians.  

Yet we are constantly being told that our public policy should be based squarely on a book that features talking snakes and sea monsters.  We must condemn everything it condemns.  We must teach its myths in our schools as truth.  We must ignore the findings of modern science in favor of those myths.  Etc., etc.

The Christians go far beyond simply wanting their right to their own beliefs respected.  They want the beliefs themselves respected and enforced on the rest of us, as a matter of public policy from which none of us are permitted to differ.  LGBT people are among those most clearly hurt by that--though I'd argue that all of society is much the worse for it.

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
crux of the matter
The Christians go far beyond simply wanting their right to their own beliefs respected.  They want the beliefs themselves respected and enforced on the rest of us, as a matter of public policy from which none of us are permitted to differ.

For me this goes to the very heart of the matter. As a gay Christian, I've had a bumpy ride with my religion and its wider world of adherents. I much prefer a secular world that is a level playing field for all to follow their moral values (whatever they are) but not to force those same values on everyone else.

In my bible study last spring, one woman said we must defend our faith and I responded that my faith was fine and not threatened by atheists or crazy Christians. My religion, however, probably did need some defending but it wasn't going to be from me. Christianity needs to take a long look at itself in the mirror, IMHO.  

It may be the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others.


[ Parent ]
THANK YOU!!!!!!!
I am so glad you addressed this. In our society there is a prevailing norm that says religion automatically deserves respect. No other social field or ideology enjoys this privileged status.

People deserve respect, not beliefs. Beliefs can be wrong, dangerous or both.

If you have no evidence for your belief, I don't respect it. PERIOD.


Q: What's the difference between a cult and a religion?
A: Approximately 100 years.

Me?  I think it's turtles all the way down.


this is osmething i wrote some years ago
    George Will's column, "Theology, Not Opinion" has a number of questionable assumptions and logical holes. The worst is his statement that "What matters is theology, not opinion."

   The problem is, ALL theology is opinion, and nothing more than that. It is what a certain group of people, called theologians, have decided is God's thinking and will at any given time and place, and his relationship to the world. Even if you believe that the Bible--or the Koran, or the Sutras-- is the last word of God, he has not voiced his opinion on anything in quite some time, and there is no evidence for any of it. If this were not the case, there would not be multitudes of religions, let alone multitudes of sects within religions, each of which propounds its own theology, quite inconsistent with the rest. Hence the argument between the conservative and progressive Episcopalians on the place of gay people in the world.

   In my personal theology, I find it ludicrous to contemplate a God that is far more concerned about my penis than he is about the wars, oppression, violence, hatred, and general stupidity, all committed in His name by the religions of the world, each of whom claims that certainly, God agrees wholeheartedly with their particular political, social, and religious agendas.

And this is why we can respect people, not their religious beliefs. All claim to be the truth, all conflict with each other, and there isn't the slightest shred of evidence for any of them, apart from their holy books, which are biased, to say the least. As Christopher Hitchens has said, "What is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."


As a wiser man than I once observed,
"Theology is a device for keeping atheists inside the church."  Just sayin'.

The American people, taking one with another, are the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages.
-H.L. Mencken


[ Parent ]
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