Black gay men, AIDS, and no community support

"I'm just not attracted to black guys."

That's the line that used to drive my best friend nuts 20 years ago.

I had hoped things would change for the better. I imagined that younger people would have different attitudes about dating people of other races. I guess that's not the case.

My brothers kids have all dated people of other races. I assumed that it is common among their generation.

The thing about your complaint is that I don't think older guys can be changed without a great deal of effort. I don't believe a small amount of "work" is going to change the fact that a lot of white guys aren't sexually attracted to black guys. It isn't just due to prejudice. It has to do with what was going on when their sexual attitudes were formed. They lived in a segregated. Can those attitudes really be changed? Or are the hardwired into our brains?

I've been through this with my white friends for decades now. It is extremely frustrating. It is like trying to make someone who doesn't like carrots eat them. They act like children. Ew! Icky!

Just last night, I got into a snit with a friend over the TV show So You Think You Can Dance. He said watching a "Romeo and Juliet" dance between a black man and a white woman turned him off -- and he's GAY! He's not turned on by a straight white couple. But, he felt "uncomfortable" watching an interracial couple dance.

This is something that only a close friend will confess to you. I know that my friend is a good person. He's not a bigot. He was simply being honest with me. It is very frustrating because this is  something that I can't fix. I can just tell him that I found the dance to be beautiful and romantic.

Maybe people just need to see more of this kind of stuff on TV and in movies -- or real life. The only black and white gay couple I recall was on Six Feet Under and they were alway fighting and miserable.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 13:37:42 PM CDT

Used To Be The Same Way

but that's because I was raised in a 95% white/5% white smalltown.  Interracial dating was and pretty much still is "taboo" there.

Once I left the nest and had my own experiences, I can say white guys are just as fucked-up, materialistic, stalky and unattractive as guys of other races.  The "way of life" of any other white guy is just as different as the "way of life" of guys of other races and ethnicities.

---

by: bluegrassfool @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 13:48:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Typo

95% white/5% black smalltown

---

by: bluegrassfool @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 13:48:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There are A LOT of problems with this essay....

...not the least of which is the perpepuation of the absurd semantic construct, "the lgbt and black community" as if one doesn't overlap the other. The author makes clear in other ways that he/she understands they do but the issues that arise from the myth are too important to carelessly reinforce it even in a single sentence.

As a naive white boy from a racist midwestern state, my first shocking disappointment after I came out was discovering racist white gays. Call me unreasonable but I am of the school that NO discriminated-against minority group should get a pass for their own discrimination. Ya been there yourself so ya should know better, whether it's white gays against blacks generally or nongay blacks against gays of whatever color.

I've seen it in one of its most absurd forms. Trust me, you have not lived until you've attempted to enter a gay bar with then-fifty-year old Eartha Kitt and the young white twink at the door doesn't recognize her and asks for ID. Having witnessed just a glimpse of her diva wrath I can testify that the youngin' was very lucky that the manager [who, in fact, adored her and had a surprise birthday cake for her inside] intervened just in time.

Self-destruction often begins "at home." I can recall some white friends in the early days of AIDS saying, "I'm not going to give up my sex life just because of this." They're dead now. And, whatever his strengths, one of Jeremiah Wright's unforgiveable sins was contributing to the myth rampant among too many [NOT ALL] blacks in America that AIDS was a government conspiracy. And the willful ignorance among many of various races that the legendary and infamous Tuskeegee Experiment was simply a matter of whites exploiting blacks is inexcusable! While started by a white man in the public health service to identify ways to minimize disproportionate rates of syphillis, it was endorsed and CONDUCTED by black physicians and nurses [hence its name] who knew all along that some of its black subjects were not being told they had syphillis [that they were purposely infected by the government is another myth].

Multiple studies show that it has contributed to a disproportionate number of blacks not seeking medical care for whatever even when it's readily available to them. One study even showed a correlation between such "government conspiracies" paranoia and some black men NOT USING CONDOMS...though how one led to another I cannot remotely imagine.

OF COURSE, racism continues to exist in the gay community [going both directions], but it wasn't that long ago that I read a similar article which blamed new HIV infections among WHITE gays on homophobia. Poor shat upon me, I might as well play Russian Roulette.

BULL! The ILlogical extension of that is lack of personal responsibility for ANYTHING. Your Honor, I robbed that bank because white guys won't date me/I'm an Aryan god but I'm gay and straight people don't like me/I'm a lesbian and gay men hate me blah blah blah.

Among the positives that came out of the Howard University primary debate last year was Hillary declaring that if there were the same rates of HIV infection among young white women that there are among young black women a national emergency would be declared, and Obama calling out homophobia in the nongay black community.

It's time both issues were addressed again.

---

by: Michael Bedwell @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:27:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

On Jeremiah Wright

do add that he has been at the forefront of the black community warning about the dangers of AIDS in the community and has done so for years. Without the conspiracy crap (which I also remember hearing from many gays back in the 1980's).

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:35:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wait, what?

And the willful ignorance among many of various races that the legendary and infamous Tuskeegee Experiment was simply a matter of whites exploiting blacks is inexcusable! While started by a white man in the public health service to identify ways to minimize disproportionate rates of syphillis, it was endorsed and CONDUCTED by black physicians and nurses [hence its name] who knew all along that some of its black subjects were not being told they had syphillis [that they were purposely infected by the government is another myth].

Of all the things I expected to see on this site, a white man defending the Tuskegee experiment -- and trying to blame it on black people instead of white people -- really does take the cake.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:42:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I noticed that

but I would need to research more about that; that's why I limited my criticism to the Jeremiah Wright portion of the comment.

But I don't find it unbelivable that black people would "oppress" other black people at all. Is that for a white man to say? Maybe, maybe maybe not.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:54:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Tuskegee wasn't about black-on-black "oppression"

Anyone who thinks that has to be woefully ignorant or deliberately racist.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:40:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Uh, I never said that it was

that's like there are many in the black gay community that believe that black churches are being paid off the Religious White for stoking homophobia in some of it's black churches (and I absolutely do believe that).

However, in that situation, that does not absolve black pastors that are taking payouts to undermine other black people.

It seems as if something of that sort may be operative in the Tuskegee case, but, as I said, I don't know that.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:47:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just do not f-ing go there!

or attempt to perpetuate the myth that it was a "white vs. black" thing. I did NOT "defend" the Tuskegee experiment [note the adjective "infamous"]. I described it. Its "goal" WAS valid but the methods used to pursue it...not informing patients that they were infected...were vile...and the blacks who ennabled that were no less culpable than the whites.

"White Devil" moi didn't write the following. You can find it on Tuskeegee's own site today:

"It takes little imagination to ascribe racist attitudes to the white government officials who ran the experiment, but what can one make of the numerous African Americans who collaborated with them? The experiment's name comes from the Tuskegee Institute, the black university founded by Booker T. Washington. Its affiliated hospital lent the PHS its medical facilities for the study, and other predominantly black institutions as well as local black doctors also participated. A black nurse, Eunice Rivers, was a central figure in the experiment for most of its forty years.

The promise of recognition by a prestigious government agency may have obscured the troubling aspects of the study for some. A Tuskegee doctor, for example, praised "the educational advantages offered our interns and nurses as well as the added standing it will give the hospital." Nurse Rivers explained her role as one of passive obedience: "we were taught that we never diagnosed, we never prescribed; we followed the doctor's instructions!

It is clear that the men in the experiment trusted her and that she sincerely cared about their well-being, but her unquestioning submission to authority eclipsed her moral judgment. Even after the experiment was exposed to public scrutiny, she genuinely felt nothing ethical had been amiss. ...

Under the glare of publicity, the government ended their experiment, and for the first time provided the men with effective medical treatment for syphilis. Fred Gray, a lawyer who had previously defended Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, filed a class action suit that provided a $10 million out-of-court settlement for the men and their families. Gray, however, named only whites and white organizations as defendants in the suit, portraying Tuskegee as a black and white case when it was in fact more complex than that-black doctors and institutions had been involved from beginning to end."

- http://www.tuskegee.edu/global...

In 1966 Peter Buxtun, a [WHITE, not that it matters] PHS venereal-disease investigator in San Francisco, sent a letter to the national director of the Division of Venereal Diseases to express his concerns about the ethics and morality of the extended Tuskegee Study. The Center for Disease Control (CDC) (which by then controlled the study) reaffirmed the need to continue the study until completion (until all subjects had died and been autopsied). To bolster its position, the CDC sought and gained support for the continuation of the study from local chapters of the National Medical Association (REPRESENTING AFRICAN-AMERICAN PHYSICIANS] and the American Medical Association (AMA)." - Wikipedia

---

by: Michael Bedwell @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:16:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't you fucking tell me where to go or not go

You know, I didn't pull out this "white devil" bullshit, you poor victimized cracker.

So you think that black people committed the Tuskegee offenses because, what, they just decided to fuck with black people?

It's all about societal, systemic racism, you fool.

The story of Tuskegee is about how easy it is to get some members of a minority group to sell out the other members of that group in order to gain perks -- prestige, approval, money, limited power -- from the oppressive majority group.

One need not look much further than our own barista Autumn Sandeen to see that dynamic in action. She's no Eunice Rivers, but the impulse is the same.

You are denying the racism behind Tuskegee to try to pin it on black people.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:39:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Caoimhe, why not just post under your real name...

...Jasmyne Cannick.

---

by: Michael Bedwell @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:16:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mr. Bedwell

Man. You quite the wackjob. Every night when I get off of work I check the blogs and there you are, every day at different times of the day, posting all kinds of crazy shit. Can you please take up a more useful hobby?

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by: ThatCitiShow @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 01:12:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Caoimhe IS my name

I'm not Jasmyne.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 01:44:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

oh, ow...

Massive fail...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 01:51:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't get that

I don't understand the "I'm just not attracted to black guys" notion.  I grew up in a small town called Mt. Airy (Mayberry in the Andy Griffith show), but I have trouble seeing how any upbringing could affect this.  I know everyone is unique to a degree in who they are attracted to, but it seems to me like it is biological, and not something you have a choice over any more than being gay or straight.

The only way I could understand the notion of "I'm just not attracted to black guys" is in terms of someone just lying to themselves.

---

by: Jake Gellar-Goad @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 15:13:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I compare it to

"I'm not attacted to blond guys."

I've heard that a lot. Many guys want the "tall, dark and handsome" type -- again that is shaped by culture.

I don't think these people are lying to themselves. I think they are attracted to an ideal.

Also, I don't think being attacted to blond, black, hispanic, etc. is biological.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 15:48:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

LOL, I have always had a thing

for brunettes, black or red heads, I guess you could say someone is is interesting looking, no matter their ethnic or cultural background.
But I fell madly in love with a woman who is as blond and fair as they come......(and I still am.)
I never thought it was biological, yeah, I guess it was an ideal, but my love's other ideals sure did override the physical ones.

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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by: TruthandLove @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 10:51:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Carl Van vechten

I'd have to find the book on Carl Van Vechten's private interracial gay pornography but I do remember that in the forward of that book, the author said that gay black men were actually attracted to the pictures and and didn't think the photographs exploitive (unlike, for example, the Robert Mapplethorpe photographs). But when the photographs were shown in more mixed audiences the viewers of the photographs were highly disturbed.

And...I don't know if the black community supports black gay men even when they are at death's door. Maybe times have changed since the 80's.

As far as the "not being attracted to black guys line" I've heard that but not too much. I wonder if this is "racial" baggage or "cultural" baggage. Because as a rule, it seems as if I fit more into that "geeky mode" which lends itself to another stereotype that gets on my nerves ("you're different from most other black guys") but I haven't heard that all that much. I guess the "geek fetish" crosses racial boundaries or something?

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 13:53:32 PM CDT

I'm blond

And, I have met far too many black guys who are attracted to white guys with blond hair because they grew up lusting after Luke Skywalker and similar TV and movie heroes.

We are really just products of our culture.

That's why it is important to have heroes of all colors, shapes, and sizes.

So, I think it is more cultural that racial. The racial component lies in that we don't give equal time to people of color in our media and advertising.

BTW. Have you been watching True Blood? Last season, they focused on the hunky blond character, Jason. He took off his shirt in every episode. This season, they have introduced a gorgeous black guy who has the best physique I have ever seen. I was very happy to see that happen.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 14:06:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

His name is MEHCAD BROOKS

They still show the blond boy with hsshirt off pretty often but Mehcad Brooks has one of the best physiques (and smiles) on television

http://buckmire.blogspot.com/2...

And the character on the show is VERY straight, although there IS an openly gay, Black character as well.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Mad Professah Lectures http://madprofessah.com
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

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by: Mad Professah @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 15:46:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ok, but then

I know MANY black guys that won't have anything to do with a white guy. I know for me as soon as I hear the "Have you ever been witha white guy question." the date or the one night stand or...hell, the 15 minute stand is over!

I think what I am reacting (having napped on this, LOL) to is the fact that "racial preferences in dating" is conflated a little to easily with "social networking in the gay community."

I mean, I could read this as...well, the fact fact that most gay black men consider gay white men to be some sort of prize.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 16:33:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

this was meant as a response

to the author's comment below, mad prof, not to you!

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 16:37:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you got it right I think

There is a big difference between social networking  and dating.

Being excluded from social networking is racism.  

Dating is something else all together.  No one has any right to tell anyone who they "should" be attracted to.  Or, that they have some sort of societal responsibility to date across races. And, a lack of inter-racial dating, if there is one any more so than there is among straights, should NEVER be considered racism.

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by: timNC @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:15:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

well, dating and

hookups can produce racism. Such as someone saying in a potential "more than twosome" that "they don't do black guys." I've received some of that. More often it's been of the "you're not really a black guy" variety...the geekiness, I guess.

Like I said, maybe I haven't been as exposed to racism in dating or pick-up situations because of the geek factor. In fact, I have occasionally known black guys to be turned off by the geek factor ("take off your glasses," I've heard that on many occasions).

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:25:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I rarely watch TV

but I saw shirtless photographs of both of them on towleroad. I commented there to the effect that I would offer to be the strawberry ice cream in that neopolitan sandwich...only put me in the middle.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 16:35:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Are you red?

---

by: Jim @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 22:04:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

uh, no

And I definitely didn't mean that as a slur.

Strawberry happens to be my favorite ice cream flavor and I love nepolitian ice cream sandwiches. It couldn't very well be a double chocolate, now could it?

Oh, and vanilla is in the middle of a nepolitian...

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 22:11:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Missed a good one here

"Are you red?"

"It depends on what I'm doing at the time."

Ta bump bump

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 23:33:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Geek fetish"

LOL, that's exactly my type! I LOVE smart, geeky girls. However, living in Hawaii and in the military intelligence community, the only genius geeky girls I can find who will date me are either white, Asian, or some blend of hapa. That's how Beloved and I stumbled upon each other.

It's not the skin color, kevin, it's "does she understand the in-joke of Tesla coils and read about quantam theory as foreplay?" A love of Goth and steampunk music doesn't hurt, either. And in a state where the racial majority is some blend of Asian/Pacific Islander, I'm haven't met too many black lesbians who fit into the geek genre. :/

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 15:27:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Your sample isn't representative, though

There are a LOT of black geek girls.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:21:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm sure there are

I'm just not in a position to know any who will date me. I am in exile on an island where the majority racial demographic is some blend of Asian, and the few black girls I know are active duty military, most straight and married, and certainly not in a position to date me. Care to argue with me some more?

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 04:20:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not arguing

Just speaking up for a group that historically has been told they are "not geeks" -- see, for example, the RaceFail '09 arguments on LiveJournal earlier this year, in which science fiction & fantasy authors did things like claim that fans of color did not exist until the Internet created them.

A number of POCs, most of them women and many of them black, chimed in on an epic, awesome thread to say, "hey, we exist, and always have."

That's just what I'm pointing out, for completeness's sake. After witnessing what happened there and how much that positive statement meant to the people who made it, I'm sensitive to making sure that the stereotype of black women as "not geeky" isn't promulgated.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 05:03:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

**headdesking**

Racefail 09 was aptly named. I wasn't part of the community, but did read through the comments, and was continually astounded at how pig-ignorant some people are.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 14:51:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm black and I'm not all that attracted to black guys either

They're SO "High Maintenance" having been fucked over by their families, churches, et. al. Rarely worth the trouble.  

---

by: David Ehrenstein @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 16:52:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've heard that before

from black friends. What you've written may seem odd to a few people. But, it is the the kind of thing a close friend is likely to tell you if he's being honest.

The black guys I've dated haven't been any more fucked over than the white ones. But, that's just my perspective.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:31:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

your posts have made it clear you have issues with black people,

so I'm not surprised that you're not attracted to them either.

I don't know your background, but I can only assume that somebody hurt you so deeply that you've adopted a negative opinion about all black people with the exceptions of exemplary openly gay ones like Hughes, Hurston, Strayhorn, etc.  

I'm not trying to be a hater either, I've enjoyed your columns and Open Secret.  But through my years of reading your posts on various sites it's been obvious that most discussions of black people tend to set you off.  

Be better, not bitter!

---

by: Anthony in Nashville @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 10:11:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

To be honest, this almost comes off as scapegoating

I want to think about this somemore, though. Where is the personal responsibility factor?

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 14:02:27 PM CDT

Not scapegoating

I don't necessarily think it's scapegoating. We should understand that environment does play a part in how people are shaped.  

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 15:29:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I find it odd

that you seem to go out of your way to defend obvious racism in the gay community. Despite evidence to the contrary you seem more eager to attack black gay folks than given any credence to what we have been saying. Womanaast Musings may have had a point.

I can without question attest that the gay community in Chicago has some serious race issues.

---

by: SciFi Geek @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:58:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

no, I am separating out the 2 issues

social networks, there are very definite issues of racism. Dating and sleeping preferences are a little dicer. Let me add this element though...

I'm also a recovering alocoholic and drug addict (13 years) so I rarely socialize in the bars and the bathhouses, etc. Probably, I haven't been exposed to it as much in the recovery community (though I have been exposed to some) as I would have had I been one who went to the bars and the bathhouses on a regular basis.

Actually, I don't find the racism in Chicago's gay community to be as bad as it was 15-20 years ago. You very rarely saw any black guys in boystown then.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:10:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let me add this

In the recovery community, geek, I have been exposed to quite a bit of homophobia. I won't go into the reasons that I think that happens.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:17:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Recovery community and homophobia

"In the recovery community, geek, I have been exposed to quite a bit of homophobia."

Hmm. In my experience with NA and AA, the opposite was true -- although mainly because people were trying their hardest to be open and accepting, sometimes for the first times in their lives. It often lead to kind of funny situations -- Very (capital V) straight guys now being sponsors or sponsees for gay guys, and having them over to their straight parties, sometimes with the added aspects of class and race mixed in -- and everybody is being polite and friendly. I honestly have not seen this in many other communities.  

---

by: equalitymike @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:46:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It breaks down, eventually

my best sponsors have been straight. I am most comfortable in extremely mixed setting though, with a combination of anyone and anybody. In the main place that I went to for meetings, though, the demographic changed to mostly black people who had gone back to the church and had no problem saying that in meetings; nor did they have any problem saying some highly homophobic things, many times in the "meeting after the meeting" at the diner down the street.

On the other hand, I have received so, so, so much support from straight recovering blacks in the recovery community, much more so than from the "normies"

In the gay recovery community here, yes I have been exposed to racism or, much more often, unexamined white privilege (I mean, aren't you supposed to do a thorough and fearless inventory?). However, I did find that I was somewhat reticent in approaching other gay white (and really well off, sometimes) men but that when I took one step, so would they.

Th conclusion that I've come to is: AA or NA, like anything else, is a subset of society. Noone is perfect but at least AA folks are working on something. Well, most of them anyway. Including me.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:57:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not so odd

He's spent several days defending obvious cissexism in the gay community too, and has been much more eager to attack trans women than white cis gay men.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:23:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

attack?

I might disagree with you, sure. I may have argued with you about a point, sure. But attack you? as opposed to an idea?

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:40:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Geek, what am I supposed to do?

Feel automatic camaraderie with black folks simply because they are black and/or gay and/or poor? Is it supposed to be a given?

As if all the marginalization that I received in the black community from the time that i was a little kid (some of which I still receive, even in my current settings at times) is supposed to be forgiven and forgotten?

I'm supposed to look it over and...why, exactly?

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:27:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You do not have to feel

automatic sympathy for anyone as far as I'm concerned. What I have noticed is that you DO seem to show automatic sympathy for white gay men whatever the context and never have any defense or measure of understanding for what actually does happen to other black gay men. For whatever reason you may feel obligated to defend the existing power structure...so be it. But don't pretend that you are in anyway being objective. You easily brush off obvious and casual racism while reserving unending criticism for its victims. You do this and then you wonder why someone like Womanist Musings says what she said about you. Typically I would have reflexively disagreed with anyone questioning someone's commitment to an ethnicity. I typically do not work that way and find that it derails conversations more than moving them forward. But the aggregate of your comments have raised a few eyebrows.

From my perspective, I've found that it is easier to get support from other black Americans in almost any context than it is to even be let in the door in the larger "community." Many of the gay black men that I know have tried to make that connection and they come back just as jaded as myself. Its the primary reason I stopped my LGBT activism...once you realize that you do not have a place at the table, why go out of your way to defend it.

---

by: SciFi Geek @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:50:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Uh, it's a childhood thing, to be completely frank about it

those who felt sympathy for me and pushed me were white, for the most part. Many other blacks, IME, attempted to derail me or put me down (but the ones who were on my side were, like, really on my side; my 7th grade English teacher, Mrs. E. was a great example of that. I can agree with you on that.).

It's been that way through school, through most jobs that I've had, in friendships, and even in potential relationships.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 20:05:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And how does it come out?

Do not tell me how to be black. That's when I get most hostile ("all black people think like this", etc...) Particularly in relationships with other black gay men I've had that happen, even though they were kinda sorta attracted to the geeky persona.

As far as my automatic sympathy for other white gay men (now that I think about) that might be, for the most part, true in the Blend but not always. You might want to go and checkout a comment that I made on towleroad recently, though, about the murder of Mr. Provost.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 20:14:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I know where you're going

and yes, there has to be some personal accountability, but it really isn't everything, and in the case of a person from one or more minority groups it's as if the amount you can be personally responsible for in your life shrinks.

I've seen so many cases in the community as a (former) social worker where crap just seems to happen way too fast and there's no money and therefore no services for people except in desperate need...

When I was young I had the opportunity to go to many, many schools. Could be negative but one year I'd see white people in private schools going to special SAT sessions, guidance sessions, grade counselling, weekend programs, after school programs, with a whole web of support for them... the next year a public school in a city with friends and family who were pregnant, just starting high school... a year later 'special' schools with a girl who was 21 but just starting high school because she was deaf as a result of an accident and her parents had thought a mental institution was the right place for deaf people... only a social worker had got her out.

I mean it's quite clear that once people see you as a specific thing they are quite willing to treat you the way they believe that thing should be treated, no matter how sincerely you differ from that stereotype... and hell, most people are quite willing to make themselves fit that stereotype just to be a part of it all.

I think I lost my point, or I followed it as far as I could go. But when I work with 19 year olds with HIV and no understanding of what they need and not even sure how they got it, it's hard for me to blame the kid.  

Willow: It's horrible! That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.
Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: Well, actually... That's a good point.

---

by: joeray @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 07:46:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ugh

So the personal ad phrase "no fats, no olds, no fems, no blacks" is now taking on sinister proportions.

Wow, "no blacks"? That is horrible. I am not a gay man, so I was unaware of this trend, though from my friends who are gay men of colour I have heard a great deal about racism inside of that community.

The lgbt community can sometimes be consumed with the gay ghetto clique mentality. And as you can see, it's killing those who are generally not allowed to be in the "clique."

Yes yes yes. So true.

I got an idea - how about giving us a little support while we are healthy. How about not isolating us or making our lives seem dirty by using the word "lifestyle" like it's a pooper scooper.

Yeah, this is a similar frustration for many trans women, as it seems the only time we really get any coverage in mainstream LGB media is when we get violently assaulted or murdered (and it almost is always trans women of colour). My response to the Trans Day of Remembrance is usually "Try caring about us while we're alive."

I am sorry to hear about your lack of community support. Know that, although you might not see much of it in your immediate community, there are many queers out here of diverse identities and life experiences who are invested in queer solidarity, and support beyond just words. I know it's not much, but I hope it helps to know that folks are not just trying to "get it," but are doing activism for real change.

---

by: gtj @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 15:18:42 PM CDT

I haven't seen "no blacks" in a while

Most have a little more tact:

"White guys preferred."

Or,

"GWM looking for same."

(What really kills me are all of the guys over 40 who are looking for guys under 25.)

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 15:57:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

our community

Well, there is a difference between attraction and overall feelings of tolerance and inclusiveness.  Who knows how our specific sexual attraction develops, but the fact that to live the life of a gay man means that you choose your friends and your sexual partners from the same pool of people means that you'll automatically exclude those you're not attracted to from casual friendship circles, and that's really unfortunate.  I can see how it happens, though, and it's hard to blame anyone.  What we need to do is work on educating all of us about our varied experiences, so that we're comfortable with each other and not self-conscious and paranoid.  I know that sounds all utopian, but hey, it would be nice.

Terrific blog, by the way.  You do great work, and I'm happy to be a part.  

---

by: ChiJeff @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 15:55:42 PM CDT

Is that necessarily the case?

My social circles aren't composed primarily of men of the type I'm attracted to -- hell, most of my friends are women, and maybe only half the men in my circle are gay or bi (and some of those really aren't my type).  Am I not "living the life of a gay man"?

---

by: M @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:35:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

there should be community support, but black gay men are making bad choices

I read this article earlier in the week and while I'm glad people are noticing the very high rates of HIV among black gay men, I did not like reading people's comments across the internet attempting to blame other people for this reality.

Basic HIV education and knowledge of preventive measures is not difficult to find.  I think many people are choosing to ignore them out of poor self-esteem and an idea that HIV is "not that bad."

As far as other people (basically whites) not finding black men attractive, you know you don't have to go far to find people specifically begging for black.

 

Be better, not bitter!

---

by: Anthony in Nashville @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 16:52:31 PM CDT

Thank you Anthony

And...are gay white men no longer finding black gay men attractive because of a possibly increased risk of HIV?

When I read this story earlier today, I had to go run some errands. After finishing those errands I went by a non-profit social service agency to get tested (it's been a year, I haven't done much at a;ll but still...)

The agency was closed for the holiday but I will give them a call.

The information is easy and accessible, I've known that I should wear condoms as protection ever since I've been out, and that was in 1983-84.

There are no excuses as far as HIV is concerned.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:03:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"There are no excuses as far as HIV is concerned. "

Unless you happen to be the faithful wife or girlfriend of one of these guys.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:07:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

True. Very true.

And that was a severe oversight on my part.

That oversight (and I'll admit that it's sexism) is also somewhat a reason for my resentment at the black community regarding the AIDS issue; really, it seems as if black gay men were expendable and unacknowledged even though even by 1985, more than half of the cases of HIV/AIDS were black/Latino gay men.

That's part of the resentment...

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:17:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My Perspective as an African American Gay Man

I read the blog comments here and I find some just treat AA Gay men not as humans but as a topic to make excuses towards. I find hypocracy in so many communities towards AA gay men (the straight AA community; the white gay/lesbian community; straight whites, etc). What bothers me most is that the impact of all this indifference is really killing AA gay men. Yet, it seems, no one is moved to understand how this same indifference is shown towards both the general gay and AA communities today. Do we not become angered when we are denied marriage equality, job protection, protection from hate crimes, etc? Why then is it totally acceptable to level this this type of treatment onto AA gay men? Because no one will simply call the general communities on this mistreatment and hold those communities as accountable as they hold society accountable for inequalities. This sometimes makes me think we AA gay men should speak out more frequently against injustices against us. But, I fear, those efforts will simply undermine the general efforts of the gay and AA communities in their struggle for justice. The irony of all of this is HIV amongst AA gay men will eventually affect both the straight AA and white gay communities because there is a connection. I am lucky to be HIV negative and in a long term relationship. However, I receive disrespectful treatment from so many around me including liberals who voted for Obama as did I. These people never think how difficult it has been for someone like me to be openly gay and AA in the hypocritical community of Everett WA. In this community, I have been called faggot and nigger in my own front yard. We just had an incidence of hate crime carried out in the community against people of color. And my partner and I have been barraged with noise nuisances around our home during controversal rulings such as the Iowa gay marriage ruling. And yet, not a single person from either the AA or gay community has reached out in support. Instead, I go through my life dealing with hostility from others in this community completely isolated. I am very angry at this indifference, especially given the impact of HIV on both the gay and AA communities. This struggle I deal with is what destroys AA gay men's self esteem and leads to HIV infection. If we can discriminate we can be discriminated against. It is as simple as that!

---

by: richard smith @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:29:17 PM CDT

My black friend

died because he was moved to a notoriously filthy "black" hospital in Los Angeles where he contracted hepatitis. He died of liver failure, not HIV/AIDS.

No one called him faggot or nigger. But, he was moved to a hospital miles away from his home because the doctors at the hospital were we took him felt he'd be "more comfortable" closer to Compton rather than Beverly Hills. This was done even though he had good health insurance (U.S. government employee) and no problem paying his bills.

That's reality. His death didn't have anything to do with who he dated. I'm just adding this to your comment because I don't think a lot of people know what happens to people of color who get HIV in comparison to their white peers.

Sadly, what I've written here is not unique.

I feel for you and totally understand what you've written about blatant racism. However, the more subtle forms can be just as deadly. If a racist doctor decides to send you to a poor quality hospital to free up a bed for white patients, you could end up just as dead as the person who is hit with a baseball bat.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:52:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I worked for four years as a social worker

with the end result that I am now paranoid of hospitals. I know it's illogical; the places are filled with hard-working, self-sacrificing people, some as attractive as the actors that play them (and scrubs really do add to the aura...) Subtle discrimination is the most incredible.  

Willow: It's horrible! That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.
Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: Well, actually... That's a good point.

---

by: joeray @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 07:26:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Refocus?

The excerpt was not exclusively about dating preferences. It also mentioned "friendships and social networks that are less likely to include Blacks, and the environments found in gay venues." Those should not be overlooked here.

Personally, I don't think you can make a civil rights cause out of who the partnership choices of other people--whether it's white gay men, straight black people, orthodox Jews, or whatever. It's too personal a decision. At a certain intimate point, the push for equality has to yield to personal autonomy.

The focus ought to be on the social networks and gay venues. Try to integrate the people as much as possible and remove whatever barriers and challenge whatever attitudes are preventing the social interaction, and leave the evolution of partnership preferences to indirect influence.

I cannot image that any relationship based on race-guilt is going to be stable in the long run. It's fine to point out the preferences as a source of a social problem, but there are just practical limits to the ability of radical thought to force change, however much radical thinker don't want to hear that.

---

by: uh_huhh @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:34:37 PM CDT

I didn't read the article

but I came to the same conclusion, that partnership choices and social networks (and I'll be the first to say that is an issue) need to be separated out better prior to attempting a synthesis.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:40:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My social network is pretty integrated

Still, dating is a separate issue. It is the old "I like you as a friend, but..." thing that comes into play.

I've noticed that in my group dating between whites and hispanics is very common. Black friends are often not considered as possible romantic choices by either whites or hispanics.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:58:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I like this discussion but

But uh_huhh got it right. It's not just about dating but social netowrks.

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:13:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

it

it shouldn't be about "dating" at all.  IT should only be about social networks.

People's dating choices are their own business.  And, no one should feel a societal responsibility to date across races or anything else for that matter.

---

by: timNC @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:23:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't think they are necessarily

mutually exclusive but I don't think that framing the issue with personal ads and dating helps, at least for now.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 19:33:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

More for Me, Thanks

Great. That's more black guys for me. I love 'em.

I'm a 58 year old Virginian and as cracker white as it gets, and I find black guys very attractive. I can't claim to be colorblind. While I like both black and white guys, I am not generally attracted to Hispanics, but highly attracted to Italians. Go figure. What bothers me is that although I respect and am intrigued by Asian culture, it is very rare that I find any Asian guy sexually attractive. I'm happy to be friends, but there's just no spark.

In my limited experience, I have seen at least as many profiles of black guys looking for black only as I have seen white guys looking for not black. I just hate reading through a black guy's profile, finding everything to like, and then running across "bruthas only."  I understand and appreciate that if he knows he won't be interested, he says so. Sigh.

Someone mentioned personal responsibility. I completely agree. Spreading HIV is preventable. The way I see it, the DL phenomenon is more cause for the spread of HIV than just a small dating pool. If you're DL, you can't keep condoms and lube handy anywhere. You may also be in denial and certainly won't keep condoms around then. When the urge overwhelms you, safety is ignored. My simplistic way of looking at this is that black culture still embraces a religious style that is intolerant. I see this as the root of the problem.

I suppose that some guys shun blacks because they are afraid that blacks have a greater risk of carrying HIV. However, this doesn't actually make non-blacks any safer. Statistics are worthless here. Anyone might be infected.

---

by: vab251 @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 17:55:49 PM CDT

Damn dude

While I like both black and white guys, I am not generally attracted to Hispanics, but highly attracted to Italians.

I'm highly attracted to Italians (or pretty much anyone with an ethnicity that is mediterranian) to as well as Latinos of caribbean origin (Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, etc.)

Cracker whites are cool, although I tend to favor those of blue collar origin (whether they have remained blue collar or not)

Really, I can almost say that I'm really not attracted to a particular ethnicity or race, really. I can barely use the word preference in that situation (now body type is another story)  

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:06:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So does that mean...

Really, I can almost say that I'm really not attracted to a particular ethnicity or race, really. I can barely use the word preference in that situation (now body type is another story)

So, does that mean there are men with certain body types that you will not date?  If so, how is that different than a white guy that will not date a black guy?

Don't get me wrong, I do the same thing myself.  There are some body types that interest me and some that don't.

As a bigger guy, it would be easy to get bitter about all the guys that aren't interested because of my size.  But, I can't really waste a lot of energy worrying about people that just aren't interested.  Ultimately, I only invest much energy into guys that are also interested in me.

I don't think we can read too much into how other people's attractions work.

For what it's worth, I don't understand why anyone would adopt a "no blacks" dating approach.  I would have missed out on some great experiences if I'd had such a policy.

---

by: Caladil @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:15:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not necessarily

My body preference is for a slim, swimmer's type build (think Michael Phelps or Barack Obama). And I've dated a few of those and uh, had sex with a few more...

But I do find that the types that tend to be attracted to me are either 1) other geeks like me (of all races) 2) bears (usually white, but occasionally black)

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:21:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

and...

let me not forget a) I tend to be attracted to Puerto Ricans and they tend to be attracted to me. b) "Middle Easterners"

The very first guy that I dated was an Egyptian (in Florida no less) and we were actually subjected to a racist gay-bashing by 3 or 4 other blacks.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:24:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That black gay men

feel alienated in the gay community should not really be shocking to anyone that has been paying attention. Its one of the very reasons that I've been less than charitable with the so called "community." Blacks need not apply when it comes to interacting with the larger community. (at least as it applies to gay men). I used to think it was a class issues. But that is not really supported by the facts. I've seen it personally.   I know in my own experience as a middle class "assimilated" black man, I've had just as many problems with the "community" than the black folks I've known from poorer socioeconomic backgrounds.

I've noticed that lesbian circles seem a bit more integrated.

---

by: SciFi Geek @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 18:08:12 PM CDT

The American AIDS epidemic and People of Color

The Author has brought up a topic that is truly scary, and also truly misunderstood -- with bad repercussions for all Americans in terms of their understanding of what is going on with race, class, and public health in our country.

As Kevinichi points out, women and men of color have been disproportionately affected by HIV since the 1980's. The reasons for this are not just related to homophobia, although that is a huge factor underlying stigma, closeted lives, and unequal access to treatment and support. This problem is deeply related to class and economic agency.

My first major policy problem with Hilary Clinton as a candidate for president in 2008 was her stance on the public funding of HIV-AIDS treatment and support nationwide, and specifically her support of a formula that continued to support urban centers vs. rural areas as the government had in the past - not recognizing that the epidemic is spreading fastest in poor, rural, and/or predominantly southern areas with absolutely no social net. Granted, I understood her reasoning as a New York Senator, with the Gay Men's Health Crisis, ACT-UP NYC, the Empire State Pride Agenda, not to mention numerous other organizations, heavily lobbying for preferences in support. And the urban epidemic is also growing (e.g. DC) -- but does not face the same crisis that people, especially women of color, face in rural areas. Her position pointed out the split in the non-straight community along economic lines, and how if we are ever to successfully combat AIDS in America -- not to mention "black America" or "Latino America" -- we have to recognize the deeply flawed access to health care based on economic discrepancies in this country.

We can't just blame it all on "black churches" or the like. Rural Americans face increased stigma and death across the board in many cases (as I've seen in rural Appalachia, among people of all races).

The situation of women of color is a deeply disturbing part of this problem, because as women they face an even larger host of problems in establishing their own agency -- their own empowerment -- in classist, racist, and sexist environments.    

---

by: equalitymike @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 20:10:02 PM CDT

Women of color in the 1980s?

Not to my knowledge and I lived through that. The problem with AIDS and women color began to be talked about in the early 1990's, yes, but not that I know of in the 1980's.

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 20:18:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Take a look at The Secret Epidemic: The Story ofAIDS in Black America

... by Jacob Levenson. The factors negatively affecting women of color were firmly in place by the end of the 1980s, although they might not have been talked about until the overall reported infection rates began tipping towards their demographic. The work of Dr. Mindy Fullilove and others was instrumental in uncovering these factors.

---

by: equalitymike @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:20:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I love the blend, but...

This isn't an especially helpful or insightful post.

There are many directions to point our fingers here (less access to education, lower self-esteem/preservation instincts among repressed minority groups, a combination of homophobia in the black community with the idea that if you don't self-identify as gay you won't get HIV,) but lack of sexual partners is hardly the problem.  The problem with AIDS among black gay men is the same as it is among any population with high rates of HIV: For one reason or another, people aren't using condoms.  We should be addressing that problem, not implying that the AIDS epidemic would somehow be lessened if people had more sex outside their race.

And as for racism in the gay community and in the country in general, I must say that I think the author is hanging out with the wrong crowd.

---

by: lw @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 20:14:21 PM CDT

The point about partners

is that because black men have a substantially smaller pool of partners to work with, its easier to concentrate the disease within that population. Look at it this way, as a black gay man I know that there is a disproportionately high number of black men with HIV. But because I am largely confined to dating black men, that means that the likely hood of me being infected by HIV is higher than it is for anyone else. It therefore creates a concentration of infection. Think of it a a de facto qurantine. Anyone within the quarantine zone is far more likely to get the disease that those outside of it. When you factor in immigrants from countries with high infection rates, the infection rate is bound to rise. If black men had more options there would be fewer incidents of transmission.

Additionally, its been found that people who do not find acceptance within the community (because of size, appearance etc) are far more likely to engage in riskier sexual behaviour not only due to low self esteem but because of limited options for finding partners.

---

by: SciFi Geek @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 20:47:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I understand that

but if it involves my life I'm not taking...well, too many chances with that.

Sometimes life just ain't fair as far as partners are concerned. I mean, hell, I really do look like a geek and I am not all that attractive but that doen't mean, ipso facto, that I am going to automatically engage in risky behavior. It's not worth it. And I do have issues of low self-esteem. Still no excuse.

To me that's where the scapegoating comes in.

And I'm not confined to dating or even occasionally 1-night and/or 15 minute stands to black men either. I think that lw has a point but I think that you do to. It's not an either/or situation. And I am not about to say that a white guy needs to get with a black guy so more black guys don't get AIDS.  

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:05:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I get that, but...

None of that would matter if people used condoms.  Isn't figuring out how to get people to use condoms about a million times more helpful than pointing the finger at racism?  And I also made the points about rooting out the causes of riskier behavior in my reply.

---

by: lw @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 04:11:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wait, what?

And as for racism in the gay community and in the country in general, I must say that I think the author is hanging out with the wrong crowd.

You...don't think there's racism in the LGBT community or America in general?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you expand a little on this statement? Because it's very confusing as written.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 20:52:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Whoa lw, you totally miss the point

I think there is too much of attention on sexual partners. The study also pointed to social relationships.

To reduce the problems with HIV and AIDS to the belief that it simply lies with the fact that folks are not using condoms is too simplistic. Why aren't folks wearing condoms? Does it have to do with self image? Does the lack of community support have to do with that self image?

To make judgements on who I hang out with instead of probing these questions is superficial.

I suggest that folks read the link that I was responding to instead of merely taking what I wrote and constructing an argument against it.

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:04:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hold it!

Raymond and McFarland's research looks at the current levels of sexual mixing between racial and ethnic groups of men who have sex with men in San Francisco, and identifies reasons that underlie these sexual mixing patterns.

Even I know that San Francisco is probably the most racist gay community in the United States. I mean, heck, if I were to go to a bar in Boystown tonight, I wouldn't have to show more than one ID. There also wouldn't be any limitation on what bar that I could go to. Now I probably wouldn't take anyone home with my can't dance ass but still...

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:11:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"not using condoms is too simplistic"

No, really.  It's not.  Condoms, when used properly, are about 100% effective at blocking the HIV virus.  Use condoms and you probably won't get HIV.  Don't use them and you eventually will, if you happen to be a gay man of any color in this country.  To imply otherwise is absurd.  It wouldn't matter who they are or are not having sex with, if they used condoms.  

Having sex with people of all colors may feel good (in more ways than one,) but it's not going to stop you from getting HIV.  Could you imagine someone coming up to you and saying, "I had unprotected receptive anal sex with three men last night. Oh, don't worry, they were white!"

My suggestion was that it would be a hell of a lot more helpful to address the problem of unprotected sex among black gay men, whatever the reasons, than to say it's because the pool of partners isn't big enough.  It wouldn't be a contributing factor if people were using condoms!

And as for this: "Why aren't folks wearing condoms? Does it have to do with self image? Does the lack of community support have to do with that self image?"  I touched on that in my reply, so you're only supporting me on that point.

I am sorry if I offended you by implying your friends were racist, though.  It's just that I've never heard statements like that from any of the white gay men I hang out with.

---

by: lw @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 04:05:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

most guys don't use them during oral sex

and often don't think they need to, even though oral is certainly a route of transmission. There seem to be some cultural attitudes out there, too.

Most of the guys I've had work their spiel on me usually resort to the "it doesn't feel good" stuff. Sadly, many of the girls parrot the same BS.  

Willow: It's horrible! That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil and... skanky. And I think I'm kinda gay.
Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: Well, actually... That's a good point.

---

by: joeray @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 07:52:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Still too simplistic

That's like say "everything in the world would be alright if people just treated each other like equals."

or saying "more people would live if cancer was cured."

No kidding to both points but to just throw statements out there like that while ignoring complexities is too simplistic.

Sometimes you can't just say "do this" instead of understanding why folks won't "do this."

---

by: Alvin McEwen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 10:51:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Crazy white gays (LOL)

Contrary to this expectation, however, the Mailman School study found that black lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals had significantly fewer disorders than white individuals. Latinos had a prevalence of disorders similar to whites.

"These findings suggest that black lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals have effective ways to cope with prejudice related to racism and homophobia" noted Ilan H. Meyer, PhD, associate professor of clinical Sociomedical Sciences at the Mailman School of Public Health and principal investigator of the study.

The study of 388 white, black and Latino New York City residents aged 18 -- 59 who identified themselves as lesbian, gay, or bisexual is the first population-based study of its kind to examine the prevalence of mental disorders among black and Latino, versus white, lesbians, gay men, and bisexual individuals.

By contrast to the findings about mental disorders, more black and Latino gay men, lesbians, and bisexuals than whites reported a history of serious suicide attempts. "Because these suicide attempts occurred at an early age, typically during the teenage, we can speculate that they coincided with a coming-out period and were related to the social disapprobation afforded to lesbian, gay, and bisexual identities," Dr. Meyer said.

This was in a story archived right by your post, Author.

So, white gays have more mental disorders. Or are the mental disorders of white gays treated more often?

---

by: kevinchi @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 21:34:42 PM CDT

I've had plenty to say about the "race problem",

I won't call it racism any more, in the gay community but I don't like this article. We're suppose to believe black gay men are getting infected because men of other races don't favor them? Give me a break. Straight black people couldn't give you even one crap about white people not liking them. I get that in the gay community things are a little more intimate but it isn't a reason to get infected with HIV.

I'll be honest, I'm 22, black, and recently (Nov 2008) diagnosed. But I suspected my status for about a year. I highly doubt I was infected by a black man. Actually, every black guy I slept with were ADAMENT about using condoms. So I just don't know why there is such a HIV problem in our community. As for why I was stupid enough to risk my life...multiple times. I don't know. I guess I was on a death march. I think I still am. Every time I think about the "life" I'm going to deal with I sink into the most nasty momentary depression. I think about getting a gun and just ending it all. I have to admit, I don't live for the people around me. I don't think "but how will everybody else fare?" I continue to live because my young hopes I feel are bigger than me and I want to see them manifest. I think maybe I did all the shit I did was because I felt unloved or something. Learning my positive status kind of sobered me up though. I don't know why but it made me start really engaging with life. Finally.

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by: ThatCitiShow @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 01:37:54 AM CDT

hang in there, guy...

I really, really urge you to think of some people you can call--even suicide hotlines, if you're comfortable with that--when you're having suicidal thoughts.  You're so young, and have an entire lifetime ahead of you.  

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by: lw @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 04:17:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Duh! Use a condom!

A young gay male I know, who is White, recently was diagnosed with HIV. The same guy didn't wear a condom during sex with men. Does anything else in his life really matter other than this one fact? Answer - no!

To the Black men having sex with men if you are so irresponsible as to have sex without a condom, for both partners, the fault for you getting HIV is ENTIRELY yours. Racism, your income level, your church, etc. have nothing to do with it.

As a taxpayer let me add that it is getting old to be bailing out irresponsible people of any color. The cost for treating irresponsibility generated HIV acquisitions is sky high. Several people could be funded a college education for the expense it takes to keep you able to have unprotected sex. GROW UP and take responsibility for your actions.

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by: Eudemon @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 04:58:54 AM CDT

There is just one problem

Actually racism, income level has a lot to do with education, health care, etc.  Unfortunately those who are poor do not have access to good information, health care, etc.

And past racial issues do play a part in the way black folks perceive the medical profession.

Your attitude touches on a huge problem in the lgbt community - this idea that everyone is on the same level in these matters and those caught up in unfortunate situations can go to hell because they "screwed up."

It's an insensitive attitude that is rooted in selfishness and not reality.

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 10:47:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Author is an IDIOT

What the #@(* is up with that headline - AIDS is killing off black men?!  As someone who is living with HIV, I highly resent the sensationalization of "killing off" when the article says NOTHING about people dying.  It says their is a higher rate and risk of infection - and that is certainly troubling and should be dealt with.
However, to use the terms "killing off" is beyond insensitive, inaccurate and just f'ing  mean for "the author" to use.  People living with HIV face enough prejudice and stigma without people in our own community reinforcing the idea that if you have HIV you are as good as dead.  This is infuriating to see on Pam's.  We can treat HIV with all the seriousness it deserves without treating those of us who are living with it like we are walking corpses facing a certain death.
I am healthier than I dare say, 90% of fat-ass Americans and many of you on here.  If I take care of myself and take my meds faithfully, I have every reason to think I will live a normal lifespan.  Will I have complications, yes - but who doesn't these days.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop this kind of sensational headlines.  People living with HIV face enough without idiots like "the author" contributing to the fears we face.  Shame on you.

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by: pt90048 @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 10:29:57 AM CDT

You may disagree

Hey pt,

I understand your anger and respect your disagreement with what I wrote, but let's not call people names. It reduces the integrity of your argument (believe it or not, I think you make soem good points).

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 10:37:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

True Enough

Name was used in the anger of the moment - and anger is still there.  My  "disagreement" is not with anything in the article or in your comments about it, but with the unnecessary and callous use of the term "killing off."  Did you do this just to get more people to read it?  Do you ever think of how reading something like that discourages someone living with HIV greatly?  Diabetes, High Blood Pressure, and Heart Disease also affect minority populations to a greater extent because of various factors.  We don't see the term "killing off" thrown around so easily with them.  And quite frankly, those diseases kill a much higher percentage of people than does HIV - particularly HIV that is treated properly.  My initial frustration was and is that people like yourself should be trying to educate our community - not reinforcing the marginalization of another group.  Everyone who is diagnosed with HIV needs to be encouraged that there is much life left to live.  And educated that the living is within their control by being  active in their care and treatment.
We face a challenge to treat HIV as the very serious issue that it is - however, we can't keep using terms that were used in the 1990's when the fact is that things have changed.  
Please keep those things in mind when you write about this subject.  It is this hopelessness and stigma-inducing language that you used that discourages many with HIV from staying faithfully on their meds.  They think - well, I'm going to die - or people see me as already dead - and they let their guard down, become discouraged and sometimes give up.  I hope you'll please keep that in mind whenever you write about HIV/AIDS issues again.  We need to move away from this 'terminal' language.  MANY MANY diseases are terminal if not treated.  Not just HIV.
Thanks for acknowledging the points and I'm slightly sorry I called you an idiot. :)

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by: pt90048 @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 17:48:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dying/killing off is valid...

especially in the context of black Americans. While it is perfectly possible for someone these days to live a perfectly normal lifespan with HIV. The reality is that because of vast economic disparities black Americans are less likely to have access to the necessary drugs. This has been true for many health problems.

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by: SciFi Geek @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 11:51:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry, but I don't think so...

Unless the article specifically addresses death rates or statistics that deal with actual deaths, the use of "killing off" isn't valid at all.  And borders on being nothing more than sensationalist.   What you say is true - that minority populations face a greater risk from almost all chronic/potentially deadly health issues for the reasons you address.  However, as a community we have to educate ourselves away from the "language of death" that fails to treat people living with HIV with the respect they deserve.  Not many conditions require the discipline and vigilance to treat that HIV puts in the hands of the patients.  There are very real, simple, tangible things that patients can do to greatly enhance their chances of survival.  This flippant use of death and dying does nothing to help or empower those people.
If the author wants to do another article that comments on research in HIV deaths of minority populations, that is a different story.  This article was about infection rates and to use the terms he/she used was, I think, very wrong and hurtful.

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by: pt90048 @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 17:58:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The percentages of new infections

are high also in this country with Black women the latest studies show.  It isn't just the men who are becoming infected at higher rates.  

How do we not isolate the Black community as a whole and for us especially the Black gay community?  Here in Reno, neighborhoods are not very segregated, we don't even have a gayborhood, but that isn't true everywhere.

It isn't all an individuals racism either, or even dating habits alone, I mean with redlining and stuff many people don't even realize we are being segregated from each other.  If we are directed away from each others neighborhoods when looking for a home how do we get closer to understand what is needed?

I am sorry I can't even clarify my thoughts on this very well, I just don't know where to begin. It is a part of a huge issue that encompasses so many ills in society.  I don't think it is impossible to come together, but in places where there is segregation by neighborhood where do we begin?

"They say that time changes things, but you actually have to change them yourself." - Andy Warhol



"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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by: TruthandLove @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 11:14:09 AM CDT

What I find really offensive

Some of these points may or may not have anything to do with this article but...whatever.

1) Does the gay community really have this massive overwhelming political power to oppress the black community? I don't think so.

2) Does the black community really have this massive overwhelming political power to oppress the gay community? I don't think so. I tend to get offended at any article that tends to reach for either extreme.

3) Personally, I tend to find both communities to be xenophobic. Perhaps a better term, though (following W.E.B. Dubois) is "veiled."

Just to take a couple of examples, there's the (at times) extreme religiosity of the black community: I can imagine how the (mostly) white gay community would be turned off by it or even fear it. OTOH, the willingness of the gay community to be out and proud and, at times, flaunting sexuality might turn off or not be understood by many in the black community. Anyone can add to this list of course.

But for either community to act like they have halos and angel's wings and oh so much purity just seems pretty preposterous to me. What I try to do is to keep a balance about the whole thing.

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by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 11:43:00 AM CDT

More Science, Less Prejudice and Assumptions

I'm not sure why this story from last year has received so little attention on LGBT blogs and newspapers:

The researchers found that a genetic trait - found in 60 percent of African-Americans and 90 percent of Africans - makes HIV infection 40 percent more likely. The trait is virtually nonexistent in whites.

From what I've read, studies have shown that reported condom use by black men is equal to or even higher than white men.

When it comes to the issue of HIV/AIDS in the black community people on all sides often bring their prejudices and pre-conceived notions to the table - whether by blaming white racism or lack of personal responsibility by blacks. We need more science and objectivity.  

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by: claudew @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 15:16:45 PM CDT