What, In The Grand Scheme Of Things, Is Important?

Why?

If we're trying to get past this argument, why did we need a new front page thread about it?  Instead of telling us we need to focus on real issues and not on some PHB pissing match, please just focus on the real issues and not on some PHB pissing match.

---

by: TrumpetDC @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:12:47 PM CDT

Pam asked me to comment.

There is a meme out in our threads and out on the internets and in our threads, and Pam asked me to comment on that meme.

A few of my trans activist peers commented that I needed to comment as well.

So, I commented, and I asked questions. And my questions are serious ones.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:22:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So if the "meme" is that you "misstated" something

why don't you address that.  Why do you instantly put yourself at the center of something totally unrelated to your personal role in that "meme"?

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:29:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks Autumn.

We do need to get back to what's important. Which is to recognize that, whether we are cissexual or transsexual, we are ALL transgender in some way. We are all queer. The same narrow ideologies and gender norms oppress us all and we are all in the same boat (which isn't to pretend as if we are all the same, or that some people don't face more adversity than others - but merely to focus on what ties us all together.

---

by: Eshto @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:23:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well said.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:55:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I appreciate that and I appreciate you and Pam.

But, women, you're in charge here!

Stop trying to play nice with the psychos!

Stop messing with your successful blog because there are crazy people in the world!

Stop apologizing for being right!

Autumn, I get you have to live fulltime in the same community as the mush-minded maniacs who have chosen to attack you.  I'm sincerely sorry that's so.  However, you don't approach people like that from a position of weakness.  That's EXACTLY where they want you and they will NEVER let you get back up from it.  So just don't go there!

Kick them out, ignore them, whatever, but let's please move on!

---

by: diablorobotico @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:48:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

^^What Trumpet said

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:26:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

lol. sorry, I think I misinterpreted what you said, Trumpet.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:35:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not sure what you though I said, but..

basically it's this:

Get back to what you guys do excellently, which is blog about issues in the LBGT community rather than blogging about interpersonal drama here.

---

by: TrumpetDC @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:58:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OMG Yes!!

I was not even involved in this little (big) pissing match and I'm getting sick of hearing about it. F*ck people!! I see two problems: 1) some people are way too sensitive about certain words and when they call others out on it they get defensive and offensive at the smae time instead of educating others who most likely are not saying the words in hostility and/or out of a lack of understanding, and 2) some other people are way too sensitive when others call them out on misuse of certain words when they should, from experience, know that differant words to different people can be offensive. No one is absolutely right or wrong - just as in the vast array of our gender identities and sexual orientations, there are a vast array of opinions and a vast array of interpretations.
One thing is for certain, this pissing match isn't getting any of us anywhere in the fight against the injustice that harms all of us.
In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along" I guess the answer is no. My suggestion to Pam is to (but after the week long test) turn off comments all together when these pissing matches start.

About a month ago, and I'm not sure if this is what actually happened, but I commented to a post with the phrase, "look bitches" and immediately got harshly attacked. I'm sorry, but if the people who attacked me were in the same room with me when I said it and assuming they knew me personally, it would have most likely gotten a laugh. Gay men call each other bitches all the freaking time and it is actually a term of endearment when used that way. But, instead it was like I had just called people the ugliest epiteths in the world and in the most vile way when i actually meant no harm at all. The next day, my log-on did not work and my account was apparently gone. WTF? I use this site to network and unite with people and to help push the ball down the road a little bit each day - not to have pissing matches with my friends and allies.

I would guess that those who attacked me for my bitch comment are people who others would call  "militant feminists", but I do not call them that - I actually see them as allies and compadres and freinds and never meant any harm.

Anyway, I've rambled on long enough, but to summarize, this sh*t is getting ridiculous and it's undermining the purpose of this site. Those who want to continue the conflict should take it offsite until they can kiss and make up.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:43:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

looks like someone has "issues"

Read this part of your post:

2) some other people are way too sensitive when others call them out on misuse of certain words when they should, from experience, know that differant words to different people can be offensive.

Then read the part where you get "way too sensitive" about having those awful people point out that "bitches" might be offensive to a significant part of the readership here.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:06:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think you miss the point

I didn't get "sensitive." I thought about how others might have taken my comment in this impersonal forum where body language and intent are hard to discern. I realized I should no longer use the term "bitch" as others are offended by it. I did not go on tyrade. I made 1 or 2 comments to explain myself and extend an open hand. When I realized I had been banned, I simply created a new account and moved on.

My point is that we all have sensitivities and we all have compassion. So instead of carrying on a "war" in public, we all should step back and consider how terms we find harmless can be offensive to others AND we should all realize that the way to call someone out on using an offensive term is to educate, not attack.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:05:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Or I did not make myslef clear, sorry

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:19:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If it doesn't matter who threw the first snowball...

...then why don't you stop blaming the wrong person?

Why don't you just come clean and apologize to Kynn (and maybe ask Pam to unban her)?

For those who haven't caught the supposed "meme" -- here's the post on Kynn's livejournal where she documents Autumn's falsehoods designed to pin the blame for the "cis" fiasco on the wrong person.

It's very easy for Autumn, after lying about who threw the first snowball, to then claim it doesn't matter who threw the first snowball. Especially when the person she unfairly singled out is banned from commenting here.

To those who don't have the energy to follow the link, Autumn presented a timeline that said, in short:

Kynn's post on June 29 was the direct cause of Autumn's moderation choices on June 28. (no, that's not a typo)

(She later goes on to say the next such post, with "weaponized" cis-terminology, was one made by a cisgender-self-identifying woman on June 26. Explain that to me? I've never been good at time travel stories.)

It's not enough for Autumn to lie about who threw the snowballs and then declare "it doesn't matter who threw the snowballs!" while picking up her own snowballs to throw at others, as she does with yet another top-level post where Autumn is less than honest.

And yes, it's most certainly less than honest to claim that anyone concerned about Autumn's deceptions somehow doesn't care about Lateisha Green's murder, Angie Zapata's murder, the Matthew Shepard act, ENDA, Diane Schroder, or August Provost III's murder.

Especially when Autumn herself isn't posting about those and just putting up yet more self-defensive posturing while refusing to address the lies she told.

Autumn, why are you weaponizing those snowballs?

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:31:13 PM CDT

kynn still deserves her banning

And it was PAM'S decision to do so after she violated Pam's TOS, as determined by PAM (whether you agree or not it is Pams House).

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:45:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pam's policy applies to personal information posted on PHB, surely

I don't think she's got a general policy of banning anyone who ever makes public an email that someone would like to have covered up (even without agreed confidentiality), right?

Would Pam ban anyone who reposted Sanford's love letters to Argentina on their own web site?

It looks more like Kynn got banned because Pam was looking for a loophole to get rid of a thorn in her side, who was calling Autumn out -- because Autumn inexplicably scapegoated Kynn.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:53:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Multiple Personality Problems Kynn?

see a shrink, don't play the drama out here.

I saw much better drama in Austria two days ago, with full orchestration and great vocals...

(I saw "Rebecca," if you ever get the chance...see it!)

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:18:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Caoimhe is Kynn

BTW, Caoimhe is Kynn:

http://keeva.dreamwidth.org/pr...

Screenshot from a publicly accessible page (not bright):

Buh Bye...

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:01:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ROFL

Love you, Pam.

It's pronounced "PWNED"

---

by: ChlorineX @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:23:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thankyou

Thanks to both you and Autumn for all you do.

---

by: travelingman.rick @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:01:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I had a feeling they were one and the same

but then I thought that'd be traceable and she wouldn't be that stupid.  apparently I was wrong and she is

---

by: ol cranky @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:34:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Er?

I'm sorry, but this looks a whole lot like publicly outing someone as transgendered and linking to their identity, name, professional life and rough location?

I understand you wanted to 'prove' your case here, but doing so in this way breaches your own rules.

---

by: JayBlanc @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:08:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Looks a whole lot like?

It is publicly outing someone as trans and linking things that they have not themselves disclosed in this forum. And its been done twice. It's a cheap stunt. If Pam had some problem with Caiomhe's conduct here, then all she had to do was nuke the account.

This was grudgewank of the worst kind; the kind that could endanger someone. Bad, bad form.

---

by: TR @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:35:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Being a sock puppet is being a sock puppet

And coming onto this blog pretending to be someone else, all the while praising the person you really are, as a third party, is reprehensible.

And posting PUBLICLY AVAILABLE information that Kynn put out on the web is NOT publishing personal information, as it is no longer personal.  Especially since it is used as an Alias and identified as such in other public forums.

If pulling public information off the web is outing someone, then no one can post any link ever to any other site, at least by your standards, since it wasn't posted as an original post on THIS site.

And I would like to ask, how is telling everyone the identity of someone, who has previously PUBLICLY acknowledged that identity as them, outing?  Logic requires that one be "in" something in order to be outed.  And how does posting PUBLIC information then run the risk of endangering someone?  The information is already public and is the first entry in a google search?

Really, please explain the tortured logic that you had to use to get to that conclusion.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:46:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Simple

If the information wasn't linked here, then the information since it concerns the identity of a transperson vis-a-vis their "new" name ought not be publicized here. Period.

---

by: TR @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 06:09:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This Keeva/Kynn/Coa??? person is certainly not trying to hide their identity

The simplest of web searches finds a page where they publicly posted all that information for all the world to see, along with hundreds of posts and self decriptions which included information that only they could have supplied to the web site.

Now, given this individuals demonstrated habit of pretending to be someone else, it is quite possible that they also made up all of the personal information.  

But when someone posts a detailed profile in a public space on the internet it comes with the understanding that it is the electronic equivilant of buying space on a billboard on a highway, or an ad on television.

There can be no claim of anonymity in such a circumstance.  And not "outing".  

Pam's post was not how I learned this, gee golly, I typed two words into my browser and up came all her information.  

Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 07:18:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

agreed

as TR said, this has become grudgewank; and their cis-privledge is showing.  A whole lot of apologies should be going out to transfolk

>:(

---

by: alang @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:42:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

nc

nc

---

by: alang @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 20:29:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There have been a lot of

name calling and harrassments on these pages, and it is your blog Pam, but all I have to say is it has been great theater! Not productive, but at times entertaining.

---

by: chef kat @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 09:47:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

i agree, this is the most entertainment I've seen on this site, but it's pointless

The drama in these posts has been over the top, and makes for intriguing reading even though I have no interest in debating "cis" issues and feel the entire affair is an example of identity politics gone haywire.

I'm more surprised that Pam has allowed her site to be hijacked like this shortly after being mentioned in the Advocate as one of the top blogs.  

Be better, not bitter!

---

by: Anthony in Nashville @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 11:18:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is freakin' rediculous

Autumn just made a valiant attempt to defuse this situation and now you and others are trying to add fuel to the fire...do any of you actually listen to yourselves? This whole conversation is so far out of hand it is truly unbelievable. Honestly, as a cisgender straight married woman with three children I donate this piece of my mind. If you want equal rights and want to be recognized as contributing members of society with something important to say then stop acting like children. Shut up and own up to your shit.

Personally I don't know why anyone should treat you any differently than the way you act.

Kim Pearson

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:57:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So trans people's civil rights are contingent upon internet arguments and cis people's perception of those arguments?

That's interesting to know, from someone who advocates for trans people.

I mean, I know what you did at KRXQ, and I think that was brilliant, I really do. But at the same time, don't you see what kind of tactic you're using here? How you're reinforcing the status quo by talking down to and treating trans people as children, and lecturing us on how we're too mean and if we don't shut up we'll be sent to bed without any ENDA?

I think there's quite a few people on this forum who aren't owning their shit, and quite a few of those people are cis, and somehow the focus isn't really on how they keep trying to maintain a relationship in which they get to label, other, exotify, and demean trans people, but on how terrible it is that trans people dare to object to that treatment, try to disrupt that treatment, and try to denaturalize the assumptions that make that treatment acceptable in cissexist society.

I believe that Pam and Autumn want a trans-friendly space where trans people feel welcome to comment and participate and contribute to this community, but when Autumn says she's going to ban the next person to defend cis terminology, she's reinforcing that. When her posts about the fallout are focused on how trans people have been weaponizing cis, or how this argument is stealing attention from important issues (which are somehow still being discussed while also being neglected).

---

by: Lisa Harney @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:11:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Cis is not a derogatory term

Apart from all the drama regarding bannings, I do think that much of the discussion has completely ignored the central issue. And in my mind, the central issue is that there is no legitimate complaint when transpeople use the term cissexual or cisgender.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Latin, the prefix cis simply means "in alignment." So the word cissexual means 'someone whose sex characteristics are in alignment with their sense of gender identity.'

I absolutely fail to comprehend why this conceptual category is up for debate. To make an analogy, it is equivalent to a heterosexual person objecting to the term heterosexual or straight. While they might object (although I have never seen a case of a heterosexual objecting to this term), to eliminate the word from the lexicon would automatically erase and make invisible all those privileges that straight people enjoy that homosexuals do not.

In the same vein, for a gay male to object to the very term that exposes the privilege he enjoys, well, as far as I'm concerned, the sole purpose of this objection is to maintain the invisibility of privileges that GLBs enjoy that transpeople do not.

I'm calling BS.

Now as for the claim that members of a class should be able to pick words and terms that describe themselves, that's all well and good as far as it goes. But there is a long history of trans issues (and people) being ignored, marginalized, and getting thrown under the bus when it comes to matters like ENDA. GLB people as a whole have largely given lip service to T issues, and done an amazing job at avoiding any examination of their own privileges viz-a-viz trans people.

The history of lesbian feminists shares many of the same elements, with the addition that in the case of separatists, they have made the claim (and acted accordingly) that trans women are not women. i.e. exclusion of services such as rape crisis centers, women only events, etc. This view has persisted and caused immense amount of harm to the trans community, yet by and large, it is the rare lesbian feminist who even grudgingly admits the real costs of this exclusionary practice.

I think it is fair to say that the GLB community as a whole has done a very poor job acknowledging and working for issues that are of concern for transpeople. I have read many comments here that GLB people just don't care all that much about T issues, and while I can respect that advocacy is often centered around concerns that affect us personally, where I draw the line is when the privileged group (in this case white males) makes a bogus linguistic claim so as to avoid the topic of gross inequalities between GLBs and Ts.

Then, somehow (I saw no coherent argument) Autumn comes to the conclusion that cissexual and cisgender are terms that have been "weaponized" whatever that means, and banned from usage.

I find this really sad, because I stumbled onto PHB accidentally when I kept seeing trans stories coming up in my web searches. I found Pam to be very supportive of trans issues, and PHB was well on its way to being a wonderful place for the whole GLBT community to get to understand each other better. And by that, I mean especially that it gives GLBs the opportunity to learn what life is like for transpeople. Not some stereotype, not some ludicrous media portrayal, but real transpeople that feel, and hurt, and bleed.

I am feeling now that GLBs are squandering that opportunity.

Lastly, I have no intention of eliminating the word cissexual from my vocabulary. For far too long non-trans people have portrayed us as simply mentally ill, and now that that assessment has been utterly shattered by the real face of trans people, cissexuals are scrambling for a way to keep their privileges invisible. No more. We're not going away and we're not shutting up. Get used to it.

---

by: Christine Johnson @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 16:16:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm a results-oriented person.

I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone else, but when the debate puts real pursuit of our common goals (equal protection of the laws) on hold, I'm through with it.  Now, it's easy for me to say this because I wasn't involved in this particular snowball fight, but Autumn I think your rhetorical question is an excellent one.  So my vote from the sidelines is, let's move on.  That doesn't mean necessarily forgetting what happened, but rather removing it from the top of the priority list and not allowing it to derail to work at hand.  

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:34:44 PM CDT

Then why's it a front page post?

How's it "moving on" for Autumn -- with the approval of other baristas? -- to say it doesn't matter what Autumn's been accused of, let's talk about something else?

This really, really seems like the Republican strategy for dealing with criticism. Is that truly the real lesson PHB learned from the Bush administration?

Anything you do is okay as long as you decide we need to move forward once you've done it?

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:37:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Is that truly the real lesson PHB learned from the Bush administration?"

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:40:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you are welcome to disagree with my opinion.

and this week because of Pam's general amnesty, you're even free to attack me and my motivations personally.  but the question in my mind remains: what, if anything, has Caoimhe done this week to advance legal equality for lgbt people?

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:46:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If only you knew

I've done plenty, and I'll do even more if you give me front-page posting rights!

Fair enough?

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:48:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

if only i knew?

well, feel free to fill us in any time.  you don't need front page posting rights one someone elses blog to lay it out for us.

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:51:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Some time I may fill you in

Or I might not.

It's really interesting how defensive the "baristas" get, and protective of their own. Do you have any intellectual curiosity as to whether Autumn was telling the truth when she designated a random person as the scapegoat for her poor moderation stunts?

Or are you simply going to request that anyone who dares challenge one of you must first prove their LGBT activist bona fides before being allowed to point out that, hey, this Empress Has No Clothes?

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:57:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

lol!

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:59:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So that's a "no"

Sorry, I thought we were part of the reality-based community here.

My mistake. I also thought this is a feminist and trans-friendly site too, so that shows that I know.

Carry on with saying the truth doesn't matter, Lurleen!

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:01:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Regarding reality-based...

You're not helping yourself with this line of discussion...

KYNN.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:10:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And if I am wrong

and you are NOT Kynn, my apologies.

Your phrasing is very similar. Your profile is very new.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:11:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Whether I'm Kynn or not, isn't that personal information?

I'm not saying anything, but it seems to me that one of the few rules in force is not giving out personal information about other people.

You should be careful, Louise, about getting banned.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:28:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ridiculous.

I often lurk here and rarely comment but...

Making a deduction based on wording of comments and profile age is not the disclosure of personal information by any common sense interpretation.  Unless, that is, you're inferring something else Caoimhe.

---

by: Kipoc @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:32:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's a reference to PHB's loose interpretation of revealing personal information.

As was stated, someone was already banned for posting "personal information" in the loosest sense that they received an email and posted it on their blog elsewhere.

---

by: cere @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:42:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I understood the reference, but...

What makes it less ridiculous?

I get that there is anger over many things including the release of the email, the subsequent banning and what constitutes personal information.  The anger is on both sides, but there has to be a point where it gets a bit silly.

Deal with the issue by discussing it.  Taking unrelated comments and twisting them to suit whatever issue you want to be angry about isn't particularly worthwhile - especially if the response has a bitter/angry element to it.

---

by: Kipoc @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:22:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If it is your desire

to ignore the content of my original comment and continue to assume the worst of many of us here, there is nothing we can do to stop you.  So enjoy yourself - it's a holiday weekend after all - and don't forget to compare me to Hitler!  Have a good one!

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:10:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I haven't compared anyone to Hitler

So I'm not sure why you're telling me to do that.

As for assuming the worst, I can only go by your actions. Your actions have not been to examine what Autumn is accused of doing, but to demand that I provide appropriate LGBT activist credentials. You're making it all about whether I can prove I have earned the right to speak, rather than whether Kynn has made her case with the timestamps.

Why is that?

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:30:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you are a mess and every post of yours is intended to stir sh!t up.

Be better, not bitter!

---

by: Anthony in Nashville @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:23:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Trans activism?

You do not want to take it to "what have YOU done for trans rights." Seriously. Drop it. I was a trans activist for over a DECADE before I ever heard the name Autumn Sandeen, so don't fucking go there Lurleen, PHB, or anyone. Trying to call that out against a trans woman is transphobic, transmisogynist, and sexist.

I don't know Caoimhe, but she certainly has more invested in the welfare of trans women than Autumn does if she's putting up with the hate she's taking here trying to explain cis privilege.

And Kynn, who doesn't seem to be able to reply to these accusations because she's banned, she's someone I've only recently met online, but when the tranny-alert shit was going down, and I put out a call for action to get the site shut down she was relaying info and reaching out to people to raise awareness. In what I saw - and I was in the middle of the action - she played an important part in getting that hate site shut down.

If you don't know what tranny-alert was about, don't ask me where PHB was during that time. I emailed PHB along with a number of other blogs requesting help to shut down that site, but never heard a word and I certainly didn't see one word written about it on PHB's front page.

So do you want to keep insulting us by suggesting that Autumn is the rock star of activism and the rest of us should then shut up, Lurleen?

And Autumn, it DOES matter in the big picture. None of these things you list are about YOU. Lying about the timeline of your banning of Kynn, silencing trans women speaking about cis privilege, and creating gross derails to paint trans women as aggresive "weaponizers" of words IS about you. Address that, and stop dodging responsibility for your actions and words.
 

---

by: gtj @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:12:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

the question wasn't directed at you.

but i'm glad to hear that you're a trans activist of long standing.

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:20:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Keep being defensive, it's the only note you can sing...

No, Lurleen, you didn't, but what you were suggesting was that Autumn's work is singularly important to trans activism, and questioning another trans person's activist cred to try to discredit them.

Seriously, you think that shows you're an "ally"?  

---

by: gtj @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:28:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, what I suggested was

that our collective civil rights work is paramount, and I'd like for us all to get back to it.

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:32:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Me too.

It would be nice...

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:57:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Um, whose civil rights?

Because the way I see it, cis privilege and the silencing of trans voices by much of the mainstream LG community is directly related to MY civil rights.  Cuz I'm never going to join the military, so DADT is not a civil rights issue to me personally.  And I'm not trying to, nor do I expect to ever try, to same-sex marry, so DOMA is not about my civil rights either.  But those things DO matter to me.  If MY civil rights don't matter to YOU, well...  I guess I'm getting the short end of our "alliance".

---

by: Mireille @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:04:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Shutting down one diary is not silencing trans voices.

Everyone's voices got shut down in that diary.  Including mine.  One out of hand diary does not mean that trans voices are silenced.  If it did, I wouldn't be typing a response to you right now.  Autumn made a mistake.  I believe everyone is now trying to accommodate each other and trying to resolve the issue and trying to see the others side, and point of view...  

It was a mistake that has brought a lot of education to a lot of people, and has probably helped the trans cause more than it has harmed it.  I've read GM here say they are now more understanding and will make stronger efforts.  That seems like a good thing, doesn't it?  Even if it took something ugly to get there, you now have more supporters who have a slightly fuller understanding than they did four or five days ago.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:14:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you can quote me saying that

your civil rights are less important to me than anyone elses, I'd like to see it.

I find it fascinating that I've been made a target in this diary, especially since I've said absolutely nothing on the "snowball fight" subject until my comment today.  And even then, it was a meta comment, not a comment taking sides in the snowball fight.  Yet people feel the need to make assumptions about me and try to pull me into the fray.  Truly fascinating.

Lurleen on Twitter

---

by: Lurleen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:18:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"..I put out a call for action to get the site shut down .."

Yes I just took that out of context in gtj's rant, but we would do well, I think, to study it in relation to what has been going on around here in the past couple of days.

So do you want to keep insulting us by suggesting that Autumn is the rock star of activism ...?

a classic example of what Fritz has labeled classic propaganda techniques. Lurleen never said any such thing.

There's a place on the web for blogs which strive for civility, and a place where anything goes.  Sadly for you and people who interact like you do, this will never be a place for you. But that's okay; you'll go back and add this episode to your long list of internecine warfare stories that you lovingly dissect with fellow warriors. Too bad.

Gotta go.  I think some misogynistic gay male asshole may have just used "GLBT" when he should have used "LGBT."  Just you wait. I'll set him straight.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:29:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is what's important, according to Pollyanna.

Oh my god, Pollyanna, you are comparing the action about tranny-alert.com, a site which outed trans women against their wills and threatened their safety to challenging PHB about their silencing and banning of people over cis, and scapegoating of a user because Autumn lied about the timeline? Are you really making that point? Do you have any idea what the fuck happened with tranny-alert.com?

You do realize the definition of Pollyanna is "A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic"? I am not saying anything, just suggesting we study that in your inability to understand the points being made by others.

---

by: gtj @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:37:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You are saying something.

Earlier in http://www.pamshouseblend.com/... , Caoimhe used exactly the same term - 'I am not saying anything."  I was driven to respond to that comment then just as I'm driven to respond to this one.

Using such a phrase is a way to escape responsibility for assertions you are making.  You've gone and defined Pollyanna's screenname, said you're not saying anything and then gone ahead and suggested that 'we study' something based on the original assertion.  Weak.

---

by: Kipoc @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:58:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, if you read more than my reply...

I was invoking irony because Pollyanna had just posted...

"Yes I just took that out of context in gtj's rant, but we would do well, I think, to study it in relation to what has been going on around here in the past couple of days. "

...which is exactly what you are saying. It's raising vague ideas and criticisms without actually coming clean to make a point. My point was gee, she's being evasive, and yes, that is why I used that language. Not to imply anything about her, but to illustrate how she used it.

I have no idea what that comment you linked to has to do with what I said.

---

by: gtj @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:11:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Surprisingly, I do read more than just your reply.

Shockingly, I didn't click into this mass of comments and choose your comment by randomly stabbing my finger at the screen.

Firstly - I referenced another comment becausse, as I said in my post, it used the exact same wording that I was criticising - 'I'm not saying anything.'  It's a phrase I dislike because it's a way of avoiding responsibility, often for an attack.  

...and yes, that is why I used that language. Not to imply anything about her, but to illustrate how she used it.

I don't understand the last part of this quote - illustrate how she used what?  Regardless of any clarification of that point, you were implying something about Pollyanna in your post imho.  In your earlier comment, after your definition of Pollyanna's screen name, you said 'I am not saying anything, just suggesting that we study that in your inability to understand...'  You linked it specifically to Pollyanna.

Unlike how you would paraphrase my comment, I don't really care about vague ideas and criticisms - they are flying left, right and centre at the moment.  I am very specific in what displeased me - If you're going to go on the attack against someone, don't try and hide it.  Don't say 'I'm not saying anything' - You are saying something and the very wording suggests you quite clearly know it.

---

by: Kipoc @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:45:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just stop

Enough already.

---

by: Larry Ohio @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:37:09 PM CDT

Is it so hard to say you are sorry?

I hate to say it Autumn, but YES it matters.  If you were reporting on a story it would matter 100 % what happened and when it happened who said it and when they said it.  If you are going to continue to cover stories as a reporter, then you need to realize that this attitude will affect how people perceive your reporting.  If facts do not matter here, how will anyone be able to trust that they matter in anything else you write.  If you wish for this to end it would have been better to just say you were sorry that you made a mistake and would try to not have it happen again, but now, with this new diary, I think what ever comes your way will be your doing, and not just a mistake.

I did not hold much water for the arguments against you by some of your trans peers, but to come in and say does it really matter, is in fact worse than not responding at all.

I wish you all the best, but you really need to take ownership of your mistakes, own up to them and apologize without excuse for them and then I'm sure others would let this go.  But I believe this diary will only further fan the flames of the argument even more.

You certainly wouldn't accept this from someone you felt had wronged you, so I do not see why it is acceptable from you.  And if you are as concerned with the boxed list of objectives, then yes, it matters and now the continuation of this fight lies at your feet.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:42:11 PM CDT

As someone who has disagreed with you on other topics...

...I thank you for taking a principled stand here, Burnsey.

You can follow my links above to see that Autumn first blamed Kynn for starting the argument, and now is claiming that it doesn't matter that Autumn lied to make Kynn her whipping girl.

The way to address the so-called "meme" is not to say it doesn't matter. It's to either say, "look, I made a mistake and I apologize to Kynn" or else "Kynn is lying, let me show you why the timestamps are wrong." (She isn't lying, though, so Autumn can't really take that route.)

Why won't she apologize? I don't quite know. Then again, I don't quite know why she chose to designate Kynn as the instigator when she clearly could not have been. Does Autumn have some sort of personal grudge against Kynn or something?

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:47:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We will probably continue to disagree

but that is ok.

And just an fyi, from my perspective and mine alone, please, enough with spelling out the timeline in each of your posts.  We ALL know how it went down at this point, and when one keeps pressing someone to do something, it only makes their heels dig in further.  I think that goes for most human beings.  You can still make your point that an apology is needed.  But it will save you and everyone reading some time if you stop with the timeline.  But you do not have to listen to me, in this case it would maybe help if you stopped with the timeline part only.

PEACE


The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:53:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm done now, but it's important in this post

Because Autumn makes reference to the so-called "meme" and does not actually link to it, some people reading this post -- and being exposed to the issue for the first time -- may not have read Kynn's post with the timestamps.

Pam herself has claimed ignorance of the sequence of events before, and as long Autumn continues to imply that her fable was either true or "doesn't matter," I think it's important to get the correct story out there.

You're right, though, that it's getting tedious -- and in my replies to this post, I think I've done enough. (Assuming that those post don't get deleted by the baristas.)

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:00:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

About those pitchforks

And while this fight has been going on and seems to have escalated to pitchforks and torches being passed out at the snowball forts, in the grand scheme of things...

Autumn, you're the one who introduced, inexplicably, pitchforks.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:43:15 PM CDT

And now I know you are Kynn.

I did the BING search as suggested and it came up with your handle now and your AKA Kynn, along with your tag line.  Now I hope all those people you rallied to your side see how despicable you are.  Anyone who sided with you should re-think their support.  You are just playing sock puppet for yourself, and YOU SUCK.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=C...

What you have perpetrated is FAR WORSE than anything you could ever accuse Autumn of having done to you.  She made a mistake, YOU LIED ON PURPOSE AND PERPETRATED FRAUD you are shameful.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:49:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, two wrongs don't make a right!

and I do agree with Autumn in this sense:

At some point it doesn't matter how the snowball got rolling or who started, all who keep the snowball rolling are culpable and responsible for their actions.

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:00:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

sigh.

If people in a minority group are hurt, then yes, it is important.  Belittling them by putting their feelings on level with the majority's discomfort at being called on their privileged is not on.  Belittling them by saying their feelings and the situation at hand is not worth attention by comparing it to "real" issues of concern is not on (and my partner doesn't need to hear this from their so-called community after hearing it for the first half of their life ("this isn't real abuse; if I abused you, show me the bruises; no one will believe you if you report it; you don't know how lucky you are"))

We cannot mature as a community if we do not examine our behaviour and take responsibility for it.  We cannot address the "big picture" to the best of our ability if we do not address the issues within the queer community.  

It DOES matter who threw the first stone/snowball/etc.  It matters if it was intentional or accidental.  It matters if they take responsibility for the damage they caused.  And if "the other side" (although as a community we should not have sides) threw back, it matters if it was in self defense or not.

The snowball fight continues because so many people think it "doesn't matter" who threw the first ball, or why; that we should all just shrug it off and get along.  But the snowballs thrown by cis-gendered people in the queer community have been aimed at my face, and broken my metaphorical glasses again and again, with no offer to help me get them fixed, no sincere apology, and no suggestion that the people repeatedly harming me care that they are or how or why, let alone any promise for it to stop.

---

by: alang @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:43:22 PM CDT

ETA

ETA: as far as I am concerned, this is not an isolated incident, and I am not speaking of it as such in this post.  This (the way cisgendered folks in the queer community treat transfolks) has been going on for ages in the queer community.

---

by: alang @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:57:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hi Al,

it seems that you have a lot to say and are impassioned (and discouraged) about the subject of minority group oppression, among other things.  Why not put up a diary and see who comes by to chat with you?

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:31:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

From what I've seen here...

There appear to be a handful of folks who are intent on making the larger PHB community kowtow to their particular personal sensitivities and agendas.

These few, it seems, have taken it upon themselves to self-select as the arbiters on what is deemed "offensive" and choose to keep stirring the pot until they feel validated.  

This is a broad community that includes and is - I feel - respectful of all the elements of LGBT.  Prior to this recent incident, PHB was always a pleasant and safe environment for PHB readers and contributors.

Having seen firsthand the "value" these spoilers bring, I can understand why some were banned.

I think everyone should put on their big (enter inoffensive PC term here) panties and get on with life.  

There will be no winners in this skirmish.

What Lurleen and Larry said - also.

---

by: ChlorineX @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:52:39 PM CDT

Isnt' that the reason everybody's upset?

Because someone took offense to a word that's used to identify privilege in the majority, complained, and then the moderators attacked a minority to bend to the whims of the person from the majority.

---

by: cere @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:38:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

yeah

pretty much

---

by: rioTgirl @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:45:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

yawn

Scott_NC's comment below echoes my sentiments.

---

by: ChlorineX @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:02:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Cool!

So where's the diary on "all things cis"?  Wouldn't this be a great week to discuss this topic if people were really interested in such?

Where's the diary - not started by Autumn - about problems with moderation and suggestions for improvement.

The fact that the "opposition" response is to recruit new people to come in and conduct guerrilla warfare "gotcha" in every thread in order to derail every conversation tells me most of what I need to know about the honesty of the opposition.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:05:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually...

That is an issue we are, as you might imagine, behind the scenes, are discussing for what the website is to look like on July 10th and after.

Pam owns this website, I "work" for her. (If she quadrupled my pay; however, I'd stil be earning $0.00 from front-paging here.) So do others.

We'd like to maintain the atmosphere of us all meeting and talking around a virtual LGBT coffee house table in an air of civility, but none of the barisas has the time or desire to police every comment in every thread to make sure this happens.

In other words, we want you to be able to disagree with me (as we've disagreed publicly in the past), but still be able to come back to the same virtual coffee table and share another round of virtual coffee and/or tea later. And Pollyanna, next round of virtual coffee to you is on me. ;) I'll be drinking a virtual hammerhead, per usual. :)

I understand this site has become an LGBT institution. As we've grown, it's become impossible to be the "thread cops" to the level we used to be when a few here don't want to "play nice."

However, as we've seen, some want us to act as the site's ever vigilent police officers, and others want us silence every point of view but their own, and others want a free for all. Pam, and her staff of unpaid baristas, want the LGBT neighborhood coffee house feel back.

And, this is Pam's virtual LGBT neighborhood coffee house, and we have more than double the customers we had last year at this time. Some of the new customers don't know what the concept of the site is, and some of the regulars seem to have forgotten. So what does Pam, and the baristas who work here for free at her virtual coffee house, do to keep up the "gayborhood" flavor of the blog? Obviously, thought is being given what the July 10th rebooted website "house rules" are.

I haven't given up hope as yet. Pollyanna, folk like you who "get" and value the nature of this website still give me hope we can salvage this website.

If not, I'd hate to see Pam evetually get to the point of wanting to shudder the doors. She's not there yet at all, but I love my virtual neighborhood coffee house too much to see the owner consider closing it down -- should she just have had one too many problems with virtual LGBT customers.

Again, we're not even close to there yet, but that's a thought that's crossed my mind more than once this past week. I love a virtual coffee house of friends coming and discussing issues -- I don't want to keep visiting a free speech free-for-all. There's plenty of those on The Internets already.

And frankly, if you were Pam, Lurleen, Louise or me, would you want to keep serving up the beverages here in the current environment? Who would Pam "hire" next for the shop if the current crop of baristas quit?

Frankly, we've already had one other barista tether a tentative resignation behind the scenes, specifically because of how hard it is to serve up the drinks in this difficult environment. I hope the resignation doesn't take -- but currently it's a pretty tough crowd out in the coffee house virtual "lounge."

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:34:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're not the only ones. . .

"Pam, and her staff of unpaid baristas, want the LGBT neighborhood coffee house feel back."

Plenty of blenders, including myself, want the same thing. Are we going to tear down this coffee house from within? I hope not.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:28:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I almost exclusively saw

people saying that you misstated who first snowball, although some were more colorful about it. That seems like the one to address.

Fetch my pearls, I need to clutch them!

---

by: RainbowPhoenix @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:54:01 PM CDT

Wait a minute...

It's snowing?!!

Or maybe you're talking about those pink and white snowballs--the edible ones.

---

by: DavidinPS @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 16:57:19 PM CDT

Autumn

I believe that you made an honest mistake but, nevertheless, it was a mistake.

While I don't have a position on whether or not Kynn should have been banned, now I do understand her anger. I react just as badly (if not worse) when I am falsely accused of something.

An amends for either a mistake or deliberate harm done goes a long way Autumn. Less for the offended party than for yourself.

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:15:38 PM CDT

Autumn

Please check you e-mail.

Thanx

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:30:12 PM CDT

Saw all,

and thanks. I'll respond privately tomorrow. :)

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:09:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

To answer your question

Yes. The trial for Ms Green will receive attention, Ms Zapata will be remembered, legal battles will continue, the government will be criticized, and hate crimes will be noticed.

To address the actual topic.

The meme going around needs addressed - or not. We, as a trans community and the larger GLb(t) community are quite aware of where our priorities are, we don't actually need to be reminded as an easy way out to get you or anyone else off the hook.

The larger issue is YOU were taken to task for calling out a fellow (dare I mention gay white male cis) blogger. The isue got derailed from YOUR correct article that Arivosis should apologize to the (t) before using us to make his points.

What was initially a group of YOUR peers in a rally to support YOUR article became a tired debate over the use of a word. Rather than address the derail and the belittling comments, you coddled and comforted the people criticizing you. In an effort to soothe the brused egos of cis gay men, you deemed the correctly applied word "cis" to be a weapon. THIS has yet to be addressed anywhere here.  

---

by: rioTgirl @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:44:15 PM CDT

What Kim said.

This debacle is the first time I've even heard the term "cis".

I'd like to know why I should be offended.  And what should have been done about it.

Or not. And perhaps not done...

wait...

Whatever.

There are way too many labels like "cis' and "-stics" and "-phobics" flying around to keep track.

---

by: ChlorineX @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:32:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Am I the only one who is so turned off to all this infighting as not give a shit

anymore?  Or wonder when we might get back to the Blend like it used to be?

Great job getting your allies so turned off to anything you're saying that we'll probably all miss things that would have been important because none of wants to tune in to the latest "OMG, there they freaking go again" fest.

I'd suggest forming your own blog to talk endlessly about who said what first, but it'd take you until the 2012 elections just to agree on the freaking name.

---

by: Scott_NC @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:45:52 PM CDT

Yeah, I'm very turned off too

but I do understand the anger now better than ever.

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:52:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Me too

Take it somewhere else.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:14:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

and I'm just shaking my head

and chalking it up to ******* drama!

---

by: greatwhitebear @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:03:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

YES YES YES!!

Take this pissing match somewhere else. Someone also posted a scathing article about John Aravosis and his twisting of the facts about the muder on camp pendleton. Wheter he twisted the fatcs or not, why in the hell are we attacking each other? This bullshit has to stop. Take it somewhere else.

I have a one week test too - if this shit keeps coming up on PHB, then I'm boycotting the site until Pam or Autumn take this little pissing contest off-site.

To Pam and Autumn: I love you both, you are both heros to me, your courage and strength are an inspiration to many, BUT this has got to stop. Please take it somewhere else, with those involved, and let the rest of us get back to the real PHB.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:07:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I hear.

I want to obey.

But...well, if it's unbearble this week, come back for Civility Day on July 10th. We will begin the reset process then.

And John, I drink virtual hammerheads. Love to know what your virtual drink on the tenth will be when you shuffle up to the counter. :)

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:28:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

well said scott.

I'm fed up.  This is a nasty playground now...goodbye.

Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:40:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is a familiar argument

This issue is so minor, let's focus on bigger things because we can't do two things at once.  It's a very effective silencing technique.  Like, stop pushing for repeal of DADT or DOMA because we have to worry about health care and the economy!  Sorry, I don't accept that.

---

by: Mireille @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:55:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree. The either/or, black/white analysis is tired.

So where's your diary about gender terminology and cis privilege?  Or your diary about anything of interest to you?

If your reply is going to be some variation on the theme of "Oh, Pam's House Blend is not a safe place for me," then please indicate what your purpose here has been this past week.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:12:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just my luck

I joined PHB the week prior to this week.

I don't know the history but it is obviously emotional... but as a newbie my 2 cents is moderate this blog. It is Pam's House- they are Pam's rules.

If I walked into my locally owned coffee house and this heated discussion was going on in the middle of the establishment I'd ask for my coffee to go... and leave. If you want "repeat customers" keep this type of string in the diaries and dedicate the front page to current LGBT issues and calls to action.

Or, as a strategy, change the TOS to: not moderated in the diaries, but diary owners must accept a moderated discussion if the diary is moved to the front page.

---

by: veendam @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:50:05 PM CDT

This is actually a great suggestion

Or, as a strategy, change the TOS to: not moderated in the diaries, but diary owners must accept a moderated discussion if the diary is moved to the front page.

I second this.

It's pronounced "Keeva."

---

by: Caoimhe @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 17:54:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'll third it, with a caveat

that it be a flag this comment system, which would notify whichever moderator was on.  That way people get to say what they want, but knowing that it could be removed if it is found offensive by a reader AND a moderator.  That way the moderator does not have to stay on the thread all 24/7.  And it places a responsibility on the reader and the poster, to make sound decisions and think before they type.  Those wait and hold systems like Huffington post really suck, I'd rather flag something I found inappropriate than have someone decide for me.  I hope we can decide for ourselves, and then let the moderator be final arbiter.  

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:06:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And I'll fourth that

FLAG THIS!!! is highly recommended!!

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:18:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What about a system like Slash Dot has?

Enough people put a thumbs down or a low rating on a comment and it is shown condensed.  That way if someone wants to read it, they can open it. If not, it can be ignored.  I miss Usenet where entire threads and individual people could be ignored.  Yes, blogs have made things so much better, haven't they?  ;^)

My America includes LGBT families.

---

by: Mena @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:28:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

To veendam

This site is not usually like this. We do have open debate and different opinions, but not like this. Don't give up on PHB. It's one of the BEST lgbt blogs out there.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:16:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

a request for ruthless honesty as one of the priorities

Hi Autumn and others on this site,

My contribution, such as it is or isn't, is based how I perceive the world around me.

You know how everyone accepts the five senses as real? Well, I have a sense, as real as that in my perception, related to when things are ... what I call for lack of other words available to me in this language, dissonant. This is related to deception.

My perception works like this: this dissonance/deception causes me actual pain. This is all sorts of fun in a society that is permeated with deception in the deepest and broadest ways. You may not even realize how prevalent this stuff if you don't have to feel pain from its presence.

During my lifetime, I have been drawn over and over to groups and communities and movements that are trying to change the way things are.

And I have learned over and over that there are eerie and persistent intersections between the dynamics of oppression and the dynamics of dissonance/deception. They are not identical, but my observations and experiences suggest to me that dissonance/deception is one of the major forces that promotes and maintains oppression.

Maybe not surprisingly, I have found myself struggling a lot with practices of oppression inside of groups and movements that claim to be fighting oppression.

I have had very deep and painful experience of such practice -- which comes through to me as painful deception/dissonance -- within women's movement, progressive movement, migrant rights movement, and other contexts (including LGBT).

The way the community on this site dealt with what you are (inaccurately IMO) naming the "cisgender and cissexual discussion" caused me a familiar kind of pain of experiencing deception/dissonance inside a context claiming, one way or another, to be about positive social change.

Autumn, you asked:

In the grand scheme of things: What is important to our community? -- What is the bottom line for our community? -- What are the priorities for our community?

From where I stand, if the priorities of this community do not require, seek out, welcome and use ruthless honesty about the dynamics of oppression by cis people against trans people that the recent discussions highlighted -- then as far as my experience and perception goes, nothing it does will really be about changing the world for the better.

And if the priorities of this community do not require, seek out, welcome and use ruthless honesty about the dynamics of oppression by white people against people of color that are endemic in some parts of LGBT communities and movements, same thing.  

And same about other institutionally-backed power dynamics that occur.

And I will also say this: I make this request as one who has given up. I do not believe such a request will even make sense here, let alone be taken seriously and put into practice in a real way.

A couple of years ago, I gave up on all these movements and groups claiming to be about social change. Because everything I saw and experienced told me that the one freaking non-negotiable in all of these contexts was wanting to hold onto the lies and the cover-ups whenever it served individuals or groups whose privilege was protected by these things, and individuals and groups who had decided to seek cover under the supposedly benevolent "shelter" of others' privilege.

That is: I realized that the one non-negotiable in all of these contexts, no matter what else was going on, is that members require that deception and dissonance has to be available as a tool when needed. Including for use as a tool against others in the movement whose realities threaten the stories that movement insiders spin about "who we are" and "what we are doing" and "why we are fighting the good fight."

So, I don't expect this site to be any different. So I would expect my request for ruthless honesty about internal power dynamics to be ignored or assimilated into meaninglessness here.

So as a back-up request, I would ask that any statements of priorities explicitly include the site's approach to deception and dissonance. If you want to keep it as a tool to be used, say so. And name the specifics of how and when and why such a tool can be used in a manner acceptable to the community -- name who can use it and who can't and under what circumstances.

I don't expect this community to do that either. But I am asking for it anyway.  

---

by: michelle @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:05:24 PM CDT

Hopefully

Hopefully what is also important to our community is the UAFA bill. Something I dont get to hear much of unfortunately. It's not more or less important than anything else but for us binationals, it's the difference between light and dark, life or death.

Happy 4th of July Blenders!

---

by: LoveMoby @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:24:40 PM CDT

Funny...Kynn was Caoimhe on June 13th...now she's back under a new name

http://keeva.dreamwidth.org/20...


Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:33:17 PM CDT

Just a thought...

But it would be helpful to flag, categorize or otherwise keep what I consider "academic" exercises regarding language usage and other "queer"-studies-type discussions off the front page and in their own diary.

It's getting really hard to wade through the all of this squabbling to get to discussions of the real issues facing our community and trying to reach consensus on strategies and tactics to advance REAL priorities.

---

by: txmichael @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 18:50:05 PM CDT

"REAL" priorities?

And who decides what those are?  Obviously silencing trans voices is important enough for some people to fight against.  That's one of my priorities.  Honestly, DOMA doesn't mean a thing to me personally, nor does DADT.  But I know they are wrong.  They are still high on my list, but since they don't affect me personally, then, should I stop caring and can I try to make sure I don't have to constantly read about them on the front page?

---

by: Mireille @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:01:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Meek Voice

Folks, I love this blog so much. I hope what I say will not in any way sound like an attack or slight to anyone, because I honestly mean no offense.

This thread is impenetrable for outsiders, that is, people who have not read everything from the very beginning.

This makes it very difficult to comment one way or the other (or more importantly, understand) what is at stake here.

I love and cherish Pam, Autumn, Lurleen and I don't really have a mental image of anybody else, although there are so many lovely posters here at PHB. I feel as if something bad went down, related to cisgender as a label, which at this point I'm not going to assume any of the posters have a common definition for. I would like to invest the 45 min. or so probably required to go do my homework on this. I hope to do so.

I just wanted you to be aware of where a random bar-attender stands. I could also be completely out of it, as usual, with everyone else getting the discussion! Would not be the first time in my case ;)  

---

by: equalitymike @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:01:34 PM CDT

And -- about controlling the story

Adding to my previous comment:

One of the ways that deception/dissonance operates to support and perpetuate oppression is that the cultural system grants a large amount of interpretive power to whoever supports its needs at any given time.

This post here serves the needs of that larger system. It is horribly inaccurate in setting up a "what happened with the discussions of cis" versus "bigger picture/grand scheme" dichotomy.

What happened and is happening here is not trivial, small, outside the grand scheme of things. It was not a "snowball fight" and naming it that way supports the perpetuation of the larger system's own needs to do harm in invisible ways.

What occurred was, and remains, seriously connected the power dynamics that permeate our everyday lives via the larger system we are in. That's big picture. Very big picture.

Attention to how those power dynamics operate, including attention to why and how we, collectively, would collaborate with the system that does violence against us (all of us, LGB and/or T) -- this is important. This is a crucial part of the bigger picture.

There is no "large vs small" difference between what has happened in the discussions of "cis" and the larger power dynamics that this site supposedly attends to.

This is all part of the same interwoven, internally synergistic (is that the right word?) system. Stories like this post, stories that inaccurately and deceptively separate these things, serve the larger system by making invisible some of how it works, some of how it makes its own violence and harm normal and apparently plausible.

Why is this deception, this inaccuracy, this flaw in the post not screamingly obvious to everyone reading this? Why? What makes this kind of spinning culturally plausible?

And here's a warning or reminder: Any system-supported violence and harm any of us can do against another of us without being stopped  -- can be done to us by others whenever the system decides it is expedient for us to be the target. It doesn't care.

Choosing to support the side of power now will not protect you. You're expendable to this system and even if you choose its side now, it will not be loyal to you later if targeting you will serve its needs.  

---

by: michelle @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:15:18 PM CDT

Hi Michelle,

You joined PHB within three days of the now-famous Kynn in October, 2007; you both posted for basically a couple of months, then disappeared; then you both reappeared to participate in the "cis war."  What do you hope to accomplish?

It is clear you have thought long and deeply about certain things and are able to express your thoughts at length. Why not create a diary so your opinions aren't buried in these threads?

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:46:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you keep responding to posts this way...

"If you feel so strongly about this, why don't you create your own diary?"

apparently, you also check people's profiles to see when they joined and how much they've posted. are you trying to determine whether they qualify as "real Blenders"?

obviously, this is Pam's blog. and obviously, if she and you would rather it be a blog about Pam, her baristas and their special friends, that's fine. a lot of blogs are like that.

in that case, however, it might be a good idea to stop calling it An Online Magazine in the Reality Based Community. something a bit more insular, perhaps?

---

by: bugland @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:24:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

maybe you should

understand what the diaries are first, since you don't seem to understand. There are front page stories, like this one, but PHB also has diary pages, created by people other than Pam, or the baristas. These diaries cover a wide range of other issues and allow people to talk about other issues, without interrupting or "derailing" threads about other subjects.

For example if we want to talk about Sarah Palin, we want to talk about Sarah Palin, not get a lecture about cis privilege. Start a diary and talk about it there.

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:29:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This isn't a post about palin...

Its a post about the ongoing transfail here at Pams blog; so comments will be about that topic; that's not derailing, that's on topic.

---

by: alang @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:35:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

did you not read

what was said before?

I was referencing the earlier discussion on the Palin thread as an example.

And trying to point out that a suggestion was made that a much more in dept conversation about these issues could be had in one of the diaries as was suggested. The person making the suggestion was questioned and I was trying to clarify a point.

Maybe read the whole conversation and not pick items out to respond too.  

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 07:17:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

if you read back through the comments

you might find that we are all discussing the topic of this particular thread.

i'm sorry that you feel that trans issues are intrinsically derailing, but i hope you realize that if you refuse to address them when they come up, you have no right to claim the allegiance of the people you blew off when one of your pet projects comes around again.

---

by: bugland @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:19:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

WOW!

way to put words in my mouth! Maybe read what I wrote and my response to alang.

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 07:18:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

i did, thank you

Autumn Sandeen made this latest post in a long series dealing with this particular issue. therefore people are discussing that issue in this post. how is our discussion in any way derailing?  

---

by: bugland @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 11:29:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well if you actually read the

post. I was not talking about the Palin thread, not this one. And by an educational diary, I was talking about increasing your ability to educate......by creating a diary.  

Does this clear it up?

One thing you may not know, the front page article will eventually get buried. By creating a diary you can have longer, more in depth conversations. I don't care about actual discussions regarding gender issues, cis privilege, etc. I and I believe others were making a simple suggestion that in an effort to have a deeper discussion, more so than can be had trading posts back and forth, you or alang could start a diary on PHB, share your feelings, actually express yourself in a way other than simply replying to others.

I'm truly sorry if you thought I was in any way attacking you or arguing with you. Have a good week and I hope you start a diary so we can have a civil discussion about these issues.

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 21:37:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hi Pollyanna,

What do you hope to accomplish?

The stuff I'm writing about in these comments affects me in ways concretely related to my everyday life. Accomplish is too strong a word, but I am learning through the process of translating my perception into words, and by observing the eerie similarities between these dynamics here, and dynamics in areas where I am directly experiencing harm from others due to institutionalized power dynamics.

reappeared to participate in the "cis war."

I came back to post at PHB during the discussion of the DOMA brief here, as my comment history shows. The DOMA brief got to me, while at the same time I am deeply alienated from the marriage equality movement and have been trying to understand why, for some time. The current discussions -- which I would not refer to as the "cis war," myself personally -- are of great interest to me, and I am developing more clarity on why as I go along.

It is clear you have thought long and deeply about certain things and are able to express your thoughts at length. Why not create a diary so your opinions aren't buried in these threads?

Pollyanna, this is a statement/question from that pretends to say one thing but is saying something else entirely. To respond directly, I would have to choose between responding as if you are saying what the words are (which is not true), or expend energy trying to translate the dissonance into cognitive understanding of what you are really saying, and respond to that (at which point you would likely deny what you are doing anyway, which would then turn into some exhausting exchange if I didn't ignore it). So I'm not interested in doing either of those things.

---

by: michelle @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 13:03:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

HUH ?

Not to sound to Blonde but what does cisgender and cissexual even mean ???????

Brandi Parker

---

by: sweetbrandigirl @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:24:55 PM CDT

Education is needed!

Pam,

This is a great time to do a post about what "cis" actully means. From the google/wiki research I've done, it is already clear to me that a consencus on the term does not even exist. Many of us are confused by this entire thread as we were not in it from the beginning and/or we do not even know what cis is. I would write the article, but am certainly nedd qualified to do so.

I would suggest that Autumn (love you Autumn) not write the article as she is too close to this heated debate and would be open to further attacks. Maybe you could tap one of your contacts with the right background to do an unbiased post for the rest of PHBers.

Respectfully,

John


Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:37:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

cis*

Lisa Harvey at Questioning Transphobia wrote this a very good and clear explanation of cis*. Actually, PHB would be well served to ask Lisa to repost this on their front page.

Dglenn has an awesome post explaining why the terminology is needed.

Regardless if you think I'm the big bad mean tran, these are great resources from people who aren't me, so give them a chance.

---

by: gtj @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:20:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There's a much simpler reason why it'

---

by: Lish @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 14:23:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

...why it's so cissential.

Trans-people collectively own virtually nothing in the real world, but we can at least claim this three-letter prefix as our own. In the past, we had no choice but to engage in pedantic "pissing matches", which would covertly raise the specter of which bathroom we're entitled to use in people's minds. Just the thought of cis-people fantasizing what it would be like for a trans-person to go the bathroom in their minds was enough to make me feel cis-oppressed all over again.

But with a fully weaponized cis on our side, we can now deploy devastating cissing matches on our own cis-terms. No longer will we be forced to patiently explain the excruciating historical distinctions between all the different trans terms to cis-people too lazy to plow through readily available Wikipedia dissertations on post-modern gender theory themselves. With cis, we can simply construct whatever cis-word we might need for the sake of an argument, and rest assured that no tedious explanations of our cis-terminology will ever be required.

Note to clever cis-persons: we trans-people do in fact own this thing and if you try to appropriate it for your own cis-purposes, you know full well what to expect...

---

by: Lish @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 15:04:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I asked for an education on cis

Instead, what you have given me is a lecture. Calling me "too lazy" is insulting and rather short sighted. If you had not been "too lazy" to plow through my readily available posts, you would have read that I had in fact gone to wikipedia and google to do my research but came out just as confused as when I went in.

But your post here has educated me on one important aspect of "cis"; the aspect that Pam and Autumn have been referring to regarding the weaponizing of the term. I now crystal clearly see their point of view of how cis is used as a weapon. Prior to your post I was neutral.

It seems to me that you are not reaching for a better place in the blend, but rather are simply venting your anger at any and all possible targets.

So cis-think about that.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 18:20:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I read that post, John

as a bit of sarcasm.

I mean, if it is not sarcasm, then the person should receive some sort of warning.

---

by: kevinchi @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 18:24:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kevin, you're no fun!

I'll have you know I fully intended to out myself in the end :-P

---

by: Lish @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 18:41:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Lish

You got me all hot and bothered - and no one is here to cool me down. Shit!

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 19:01:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, honey.

They're made-up nonsense words designed to give damaged people something new with which to attack strangers on the Internet.

I have never ever heard them outside of here and I will bet the milk money that I will continue to never ever hear them outside of here.

And for that I am truly, sincerely and deeply grateful.

And, no, I would never ever make a post like this in any other week.  And I'm sorry if it hurts the feelings of any well-meaning, well-adjusted, intelligent regulars here.  But this week hasn't been remotely like any other week and I couldn't care less about the feelings of the people who have made it so.

---

by: diablorobotico @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:24:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

cis* privilege?

It's this. ^^^

---

by: gtj @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:29:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes it is.

First off this is a comment on actions not a person. (Thank you for your recent help.)

The issue is that your posting (Autumn) identified the wrong person and lead to her banning. All "the dessinters" are asking is for you to say. "Yes I made a mistake, that indirectly or directly lead to a banning here. I will be more careful in the future."  IMHO I think that will go a long way. There are still blenders out there that will not accept that but from my reading that is all that has been asked. In this issue.  

---

by: WackoTheSane @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:30:41 PM CDT

It's called leadership

Autumn,

Could it be possible that you might have taken the wrong action? And even if you feel certain that you did, the result was probably not what you were after. Either way, a sincere apology would go miles.

I respect you enormously and call on you to end this divisive infighting with honor and decency. Which IMHO would be more than Obama did after that DOMA brief.

What's going on here is akin to the whole Palin debacle:
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.
She is attacked. She attacks back.

Get the point?

If Sarah had not responded the way she did (not saying she didn't deserve to be attacked) she quite possibly could have trumped the whole lot of her attackers.

Hold your head up high (beret and all), stand tall, walk proudly and do the right thing - end this damaging debate. Show us how it's done. I will always have a hundred times more respect for humble decency than proud rightiousness.

PS: I'm not passing judgment - I honestly don't know who is right or wrong. But the way the attacks have been lobbed against you and John Aravosis has not lent me to be sympathetic to other side.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:52:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Excellent points, Autumn

This diary and the other on "Bye Bye ENDA" are both excellent.

Your questions on priorities and the bottom line hits the nail right on the head.

This is something I touched on after the ENDA vote in 2007/2008 when there were a lot of hurt feelings and people were expending energy on condemning HRC, instead of regrouping for the next round of ENDA votes.

Now is the time to start lining up those "YES" votes for ENDA instead of going back and forth on the "cis" debate.

I am amazed at the energy level that is still being expended in this very thread about the prior topic, instead of laser focusing on getting those "YES" votes.

To everyone here, I say, take the high road. Resist the temptation to jump into a thread that is related to the prior "snowball fight".

If we have a repeat of the ENDA vote where it falls short for support of gender identity, but moves forward and passes with sexual orientation, and you didn't call your representative, well then, whose fault is that?

To paraphrase Autumn, "What are your priorities?"

Only you can answer that question.

---

by: JJ in Chicago @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 19:42:47 PM CDT

Mine...

"To paraphrase Autumn, 'What are your priorities?' "

To be heard and have my experiences respected.  

It may seem like such a little thing, but if my own community can't do that much, what hope is there for the community to be heard and respected by outsiders?

---

by: alang @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:34:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

People were spending energy on HRC because they're effectively the gatekeepers

for LGBT lobbying on Capitol Hill. It doesn't matter how we organize around regrouping for the next round of ENDA votes if HRC is willing to torpedo trans exclusion yet again.

If anything, criticizing HRC's willingness to dump trans people from ENDA at the first sign of something that may kinda look like trouble if you squint at it sideways is a part of organizing and regrouping for the next ENDA.

It's also a fallacy to assume that no one cares about ENDA because people also care that a site that presents itself as trans-friendly has done some very trans-unfriendly things in the past week.

And I'm not talking about intentions - I believe that Pam and Autumn both intend to have a trans-friendly site, that the baristas in general want this place to be safe for trans people to read and comment without expectation of getting attacked, but this is not the reality, and some cis blenders seemingly feel free to trash and attack trans people, complain about terminology trans people have created to both identify how we're treated in society as a whole as well as how cis people are treated in comparison to trans people, and in general attempt to derail any discussion in which trans people are centered.

Why is that?

And why do you assume that posting here really means that no one cares about what Autumn listed - Autumn's post is using classic derailing tactics.

It's not as if no one is talking about the issues she mentions, it's just that there's no way to magic away the fact that people are angry about what's gone down here.

Also, any particular person who doesn't call their representative about ENDA is not the reason that ENDA may not pass, or may have gender identity excised again. If gender identity is excised again, it will be for the same reason it was excised both previous times - Barney Frank and HRC cutting a deal behind trans people's backs in exchange for more votes.  

---

by: Lisa Harney @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:41:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Holding ENDA hostage for gender identity

Also, any particular person who doesn't call their representative about ENDA is not the reason that ENDA may not pass, or may have gender identity excised again. If gender identity is excised again, it will be for the same reason it was excised both previous times - Barney Frank and HRC cutting a deal behind trans people's backs in exchange for more votes.

If adding "gender identity" causes ENDA to fail to get a majority of votes, but removing it causes it to pass, then I agree with Barney Frank and HRC to move forward with a sexual orientation ENDA that protects millions of people.

It would be unconscionable to throw millions of gays and lesbians (some of them trans folk who are gay) under the bus with an all-or-nothing strategy.

Protecting millions of people is better than protecting nobody.

People really, really need to get over this aspect of ENDA. Civil rights come incrementally.

Hopefully the votes for gender identity are there this time. But if the votes for gender identity just aren't there, then we cannot hold ENDA hostage.

---

by: JJ in Chicago @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:01:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I see your reasoning

I really see it, but it's not good.

If we move along with it, then how long will it take to go back for the gender identity? Because when it goes back for gender identity, the driving force of L, G, and B in LGBT will be sorely lacking.

None of our voices alone will get anything done. It takes all of us. The T in GLBT works just as hard to get this all done. T money, time, and energy is being used to get this passed. Without them we wouldn't be at this point.  

---

by: ojrocks @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:52:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

WRONG

Inclusive ENDA will pass eventually. Maybe not this year, maybe not next, but it will pass within a decade. I can wait for ENDA protections until it can be passed inclusively. I will not throw even the smallest minority to the back of the line while I enjoy my new privilege with the rest of society.

Ojrocks hypotesizes correctly, IMO, that if the T's get left behind it will be a very long time and cold day in hell before they are added. I won't to do that to them.

Additionally, we have survived this long without any ENDA and I think we can survive a little while longer until the votes are their for all of us. And BTW, I am not speaking hypothetically here, my husband, Nick, was fired 5 years ago from his job of 20 years because his new boss was a f**cking homophobe. So I am speaking from a position of experience.


Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:11:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And. . .

Leaving the T out of ENDA is same damn thing as the straight democrats who complain that we should wait while their other "more important" issues are taken care of first.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:14:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Holding ENDA hostage" is an emotive and misleading argument

If adding "gender identity" causes ENDA to fail to get a majority of votes, but removing it causes it to pass, then I agree with Barney Frank and HRC to move forward with a sexual orientation ENDA that protects millions of people.

We don't even know if it was true the last time - we just know that given even a slender excuse to drop T from ENDA, Barney Frank and HRC looked for the speeding bus.

People really, really need to get over this aspect of ENDA. Civil rights come incrementally.

Hopefully the votes for gender identity are there this time. But if the votes for gender identity just aren't there, then we cannot hold ENDA hostage.

First of all, incremental gains are bullshit. You're talking about stuff like getting civil unions recognized before getting marriage, not about cutting an entire segment of the population out of civil rights legislation so that you can get yours. And it's easy for you to bargain someone else's rights away because it costs you nothing.

How do you feel about waiting on DADT and DOMA repeals? I mean, if you can only get DADT in six months and DOMA in two years. Is that acceptable?

---

by: Lisa Harney @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 02:48:35 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Explain your math, coherently please

You're talking about stuff like getting civil unions recognized before getting marriage, not about cutting an entire segment of the population out of civil rights legislation so that you can get yours

Who's cutting out an entire segment?  The votes were not there for gender identity inclusion, so if ENDA was killed, there would still be no gender identity protection because there would be no bill.

Are you able to coherently explain how protecting NOBODY is better passing unprecedented, landmark federal legislation than protects millions of gays and lesbians, some of whom are also trans folk?

Please show us your math on that one.

How do you feel about waiting on DADT and DOMA repeals? I mean, if you can only get DADT in six months and DOMA in two years. Is that acceptable?

I want those repealed as soon as the votes are there to repeal. If 6 months and 2 years, are the best we can do, then so be it. What kind of a silly question is that?

---

by: JJ in Chicago @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 09:26:56 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

See earlier suggestion for soothing yourself

And double it, please.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 10:25:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can tell you.

how protecting NOBODY is better passing unprecedented, landmark federal legislation than protects millions of gays and lesbians, some of whom are also trans folk?

Because in the political world, if we pass a non inclusive ENDA it is most likely that an INCLUSIVE ENDA will never be brought about.  I, personally as a GWM (Self-identified) would rather go without some rights than get them at the expense of others.  And yes, it IS at the expense of others. An inclusive ENDA could pass, and it is better to try FIRST for everything and THEN go back if you do not achieve the original goal, and settle then, hoping to come back to the fight later.

If everyone is not equal NO ONE is.

And if ANY ENDA passes, do you really think this particular administration OR Congress would really come back to revisit the issue?  That has NOT been the case in the past.  We need to call for an inclusive ENDA and accept nothing less.  How would you feel if Enda were passed for all the alphabet soup except for the letter that covered YOU?

I want equality for EVERYONE and I want MY equality, but NOT at the expense of the TRANS community.  OR ANY OTHER SEGMENT.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 12:24:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

thank you

Ya know, I'm rather surprised no one has asked why I'm not really expressing what I really want to say to jj.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 12:30:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You are welcome

We don't always "get" each other, and I sometimes think you are pushy and overbearing (and vice versa I am sure), but that does not negate the fact that we ARE in this fight together.  No, not all Gay men or Lesbians or Trans people agree on everything or accept each other, but the majority of the community is united.

I do not agree with the whole privilege argument, because I think the whole aspect of saying someone is privileged is tantamount to giving THEM a power OVER ourselves.  I do understand it in an ACADEMIC manner, but believe that in a social reality those privileges are often non-existant.  That has been my experience, but then again, I am white, male, tall and pretty so I have a lot of privilege from others' perspective.  But the second I open my mouth I loose it all, or the second someone finds out I have AIDS.  Everyone has privilige over someone, it is the nature of being human.  Big groups make small groups cower, and small groups make little groups cower in turn.  And those tiny groups, well, I feel for them because everyone poops on them.

I think the problem most people have is when OTHER people tell them "THIS IS YOUR PRIVILEGE".  The conversation would be so much easier if people didn't say YOUR, but rather just talk about privilege in the sense of what it is and let people DISCOVER their own privilege.  Having it pointed out and being beaten with the accusation that everything we do is based on this privilege we didn't even know we had, does not help people realize what it means.  NOBODY BUT NOBODY like to hear a sentence starting out in the accusatory "YOUR".  I certainly hope that is understandable, these types of academic linguistic conversations are difficult to have.  Language means such differing things from person to person, from group to group.
 

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 12:50:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Heya :D

I don't think I've ever considered you pushy. Or overbearing.  Opinionated, most likely, but then, that's usually a good thing.

Yes, the majority of the community is united.  ITs a stronge and potent reminder which is why I am being so harsh on JJ.

All I will say to the privilege piece is do some reading, and then try a few experiments.  ALthough I picked up on the idea right away, because of my rather strange lot in life I've actually never really seen it in action and realized it until after I gave it a shot.

I can give a link to the core document that started it as a serious concept and explained it in a way that was essential for people to really grasp it initially.

I also understand the third paragraph's opening sentiment. And, again, I would recommend the unpacking article.  It addresses a lot of that stuff in a manner that is less fraught with some of the defensiveness and ire around here.

Also, there was a lot of poorly structured information released in the threads, which made it worse and led to people completely missing the point about it.  Its not a "personal" or bad thing, but, really -- I will get you the article (just email me -- I've got it in my profile here).

Your last sentence intrigued me, and while I could go onto a major tangent with it (especially in my mood of late, lol) it would be worse to the thread than lolcats, so I shall avoid the sleep inducing power of that kind of discussion.

in closing, I will say that one thing that I always get a chuckle out of is when I read people saying things like I'm angry or something, lol.  I rarely get angry (wasn't angry when I wrote to JJ, for example).  WHen I get angry I can barely speak, let alone type, and it used to always come out as violence.

NOt sure how it would come out since I transitioned -- I get upset, but everything is different now...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 05:14:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

in the interest of saving time and energy, I will be utterly rude

JJ, go fuck yourself.

Yes, I really did just say that, and yes, I really did just mean that.

Because you cannot protect millions of gay people without including the T.

Period.

However, I will tell you what: Since I know that I can get rights for me easier than I can rights for you, I will draft legislation that specifically excludes cis gay people who have made statements such as that.

Now, I would much rather be working on rights for everyone, but that's because I know that the only way to do it otherwise is to specifically exclude someone with intent and will, which will involve some aspect of bigotry.

So, now that we know you are a hypocrite, a bigot, and sexist, please, do enjoy the self gratification I am encouraging you to engage in.

Have a day that reeks of discrimination and abuse.

Please, heap the abuse on me now, all, for my lack of decorum and good manners

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 02:57:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Additionally

I would be willing to provide something apparently rarely seen here, which is a full apology for the previous rude comment if JJ will do likewise for his.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 03:05:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No abuse from me.

Just applause.

---

by: ojrocks @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 03:45:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're hurting the trans movement

Because you cannot protect millions of gay people without including the T.

Period.

Sure you can. The ENDA, which was sexual orientation only, that passed the House in 2007/2008 and if then approved by the Senate and signed by the President would have protected millions of people.

I won't address your other comments specifically, except to say that you know nothing about me.

I've been an activist since the late 1980's. I've done the Out and Equal Conferences, facilitated diversity workshops, marched in the 1993 March on Washington and the 1994 International March on the United Nations in New York, the black-tie galas, staffed the booths, met with legislators here in Illinois, marched in pride parades, done volunteer work, got the coffee mugs, rainbow bracelets and all the other promotional clutter that you get when you do this stuff. I also served on the Board for an LGBT employee resource group for a Fortune 100 company for almost a decade-- including working on gender transition guidelines for transgender employees when no other gay or TG/TS employee wanted anything to do with it.

So you know absolutely nothing about me.

The anger that you (and others) exhibit is precisely what's hurting the TG/TS movement.  It is also indicative of a movement that is very immature, strategically. You're used to getting your way through verbal insults, bullying and threats of picketing.

Fine. Go ahead. But understand one thing: This wasted effort doesn't get you anymore "yes" votes on ENDA and it alienates people who would otherwise be your ally-- like me.

You build coalitions with others by working with them and compromise when you have to, not by telling them that it's going to be your way and to hell with anyone who disagrees.

Times have changed. It's 2009. The Queer Nation mindset doesn't work anymore.

Back to ENDA: Killing federal civil rights legislation when you have the votes to protect millions of people is unheard of, and the backlash against trans folk by gays and lesbians will be measured on the Richter scale, if ENDA were actually killed. The trans movement will be set back for years.

The all-or-nothing mindset demonstrates an unbelievable lack of understanding of how legislation is passed in Washington. It's actually quite sad.

I hold the loons over at NGLTF (and other like-minded national non-profits) along with the nutcase activists in San Francisco and New York responsible for this. They've set unrealistic expectations on how legislation is passed in Congress. Furthermore, they know absolutely nothing about what it's like to grow up in the rural Midwest or Bible-belt South.

Politics means compromise. Welcome to Washington.

I absolutely support a tran-inclusive ENDA, but if the votes aren't there, then we move forward with the original version of ENDA-- a sexual orientation only version that protects millions of people. We circle back and keep trying to add gender identity in successive legislative sessions. You're not going to be forgotten!

If that strategy upsets you, well then, that's your problem.

---

by: JJ in Chicago @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 10:42:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes

My problem.

What's your problem is that I am not a pleasant, Queer nation sort of person.

I am a fucking bitch, and when people lie, as you have done, and make excuses, it makes me their problem.

You see, in say that "sure you can", you immediately discount the lives of millions of gay people as unimportant.

And it is my job to make sure that you are aware of that.

So, please, continue to use that incrementalist, light skinned before dark skinned, Mattachinist approach to things that has, consistently, failed, with still present examples which demonstrate unequivocally that you are not only wrong, but actively defending a principle which is sexist and discriminatory and, in the end (which I am tempted to force you to see, but have better things to do at this moment) transphobic.

Because all it does is establish what I already established:

You are a sexist bigot.

And you really do need to go fuck yourself.

Again, do have a day filled with discrimination and anguish.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 11:40:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're only kidding yourself

Believe as you wish. I'm only telling you the truth about what to expect, if:

1) the votes are not there for a trans-inclusive ENDA, which means it will proceed just as it did last time.

or,

2) ENDA was killed completely and an epic backlash will ensue against trans folk.

You're the kind of person who's used to getting your way through bullying and verbal assault-- and never called out on it until now, by me.

Again, do have a day filled with discrimination and anguish.

Thank you for the well wishes, but I live in a state with comprehensive protections for sexual orientation and gender identity.

I'm willing to bet it's just a matter of time before you and The Blend's trap door meet up.

---

by: JJ in Chicago @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 17:27:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

But doesn't that cloud your view a bit, JJ?

Yes, we have nearly all of the comprehensive protections that we need in Illinois save for relationship recognition (and I believe we'll have some form of civil unions or even marriage in no more than 2 years).

---

by: kevinchi @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 17:46:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It might, but I don't think so.

I think what clouds his judgment is rally a lack of knowledge and understanding of the nature of what it means to be trans, and that he's relying on all that stuff we've talked to death about surrounding the reason this very thread was started in the first place (the "p word" -- shhhh).

Indeed, I would actually be surprised if those protections present we able to cloud to his views, and based on construction, I'd say he mentioned them primarily as a 'jab'.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 23:36:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We already have

And I never expected to survive the week in the first place.

My unwell wishings were a polite version of what I was stating.

I rarely get my way, as well -- nor do I typically bully people with verbal assaults.  I have a made a pointed exception in your case because of the rampant bigotry being spoken and indicated.

My usual methodology is linguistic analysis, inductive response, btw. That is, I analyze what the poster is saying on multiple levels, and then begin a systematic response sequence based on what they have said with intent according to the purpose determined, which is usually learn something or teach something.

As for the protections, they do not limit you from having such a day.  They just make it less likely.

As for you points, they prove the fourth sentence in this post, specifically placed in that position for an educational effect that reaches beyond your surface reading.

Now, if you would like me to demonstrate why I responded to you in the fashions that I have thus far, I can do that as well -- but, in return, I'll need that apology so I can make mine.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 23:33:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, and..

You might want to consider that this is a breakdown of how I think about posts that I read in a more explicit fashion.

That's a good example of what I generally do in my mind at a much greater speed than I could possibly type it (or even speak it), and in which I make it perfectly clear how I approach any post I respond to in terms of thought process (I expect you will only see the emotional context you wish to see, and likely expect me to have written it in some sort of enraged expression and mindset, whilst I did not -- nor did I do so in responding either time to you.)

Even the one's where I make a joke, or laugh about something.

I choose words for a reason.

You might want to question me on why I chose to express myself in that particular way to you when I do it so very rarely to others (indeed, never before on the blend)


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 02:35:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Crap Forgot the link

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...

(see, I know I'm not better than everyone else. I get reminders ALL the time...)

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 02:45:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Invalid link?

That link does not seem to point to anything.

---

by: Narcoleptic_Kitty @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 19:28:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Invalid may be in the eye of the beholder.

The link originally pointed to a an over-long, rambling, semi-coherent, self-reverential post in this same thread which included a photo of what looked like a woman in her underwear standing by the side of a highway.

Have you ever had one of those dreams where you are horrified to find yourself out and about in public while being buck naked?  I thought maybe the photo was to illustrate a better class of that nightmare.

Perhaps the mods are moderating despite what they said they would do.  Or perhaps they interpret the ban on revealing "personal information" to include details revealed by posters about themselves?

By the way, that post is still available if you know how to look for it.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 20:41:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ahem

I was not in my underwear!

But I did get a good laugh, because, um, (looks both ways, leans in, whispers)

I saw the pic and immediately thought I was half undressed. (shhh.  DOn't spread that around).

I was, however, at a Marriage Equality March a few days after I'd returned from DC.

As to the "semi-coherent" part -- I was fully coherent at the time.

I do ramble, ya got me there.

It was not self reverntial (nor self referential, for that matter) since it was directly responding to specific points made by the original poster regarding me, and I wanted to clarify for her that she was being a twit in the most pleasant manner I was willing to allow.

Given that my previous responses had been less explanatory, I thought she might appreciate being informed as to the nature of the mistakes she had made in her unfounded conclusions regarding me.

And the pic was evidence, since I occasionally get called on it.

As to why it is gone, it was part of a nested set of responses to a post removed by request of the author of said post, and as a result was wiped out in the ensuing account deletion.

Nothing sinister.

Drat.  I was so hoping for sinister...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 21:41:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

2/5 of gays and lesbians not protected in a T-excluding ENDA

If ENDA had become law without including protections for gender identity and gender presentation, 37% of gays and lesbians would still be vulnerable to employment discrimination.  In fact, lawyers were already preparing to make the argument, "We weren't discriminating against his sexual orientation -- we were discriminating against his gender presentation," an argument that would have been perfectly successful in most parts of the country even AFTER a T-excluding ENDA becomes law (Darwin forbid).

A T-excluding ENDA could also possibly have rolled back T-inclusive non-discrimination law in the few places it had passed.

---

by: sabrinaqedesha @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 11:40:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

the trans*folk of NY are still waiting for the cis-GLBs to circle back

To get SONDA passed in New York in 2002, the GLB community of New York threw trans*folk under the bus.  To shut us up, they promised to circle back and help us pass GENDA.

In 2009, GENDA still languishes, while the cis-GLB community is putting all its energy into marriage equality.

That's what "circling back" looks like.  It's a lie.

---

by: sabrinaqedesha @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 11:56:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Politics may require "compromise"

BUT EQUALITY DEMANDS THAT YOU SAY NO.  I don't agree that the Trans community will loose LGB support if the ENDA bill does not get passed.  I would hope that it would be the cowards of the Democratic MAJORITY that would be the looser of support, but alas, so many LGBT people bow down to the Party, just like the HRC.  That is the got mine strategy, and you can keep it.

We did NOT get to where we are today by leaving people behind.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

---

by: R.K. Wright @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 12:33:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

one further thing

To say that I am hurting the trans movement when I am expressing what the trans movement is already aware of further demonstrates your sexism and bigotry.

As well as your own utter and total ignorance.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 12:34:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, wait, nevermind

I see what you really think.

Also - it is not at all clear-cut that we didn't have the votes. There were irregularities when the representatives were polled, and Barney insisted we "needed to do the education" while at the same time not telling us who we needed to talk to. Gender identity was dropped in the 11th hour and the transphobic ENDA was pushed to vote asap and HRC published a dodgy poll to "prove" that trans people didn't have support - and they buried another poll that showed that trans people have perhaps more support for civil rights than cis LGB people.

---

by: Lisa Harney @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:45:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i find it very interesting...

...the extent to which the language used by Blenders infuriated by the very existence of this whole "cis" debacle mirrors that used by many straight liberals reacting to LGBTQ anger over delays on DOMA and DADT.

i have read post after post on straight, liberal blogs to the effect that the Democratic party has a lot on its plate right now- that we need to concentrate on health care- that not everything is about the gay minority- that straight Democrats (the "real" Democrats?) will not let us hijack their party. i have read comment after comment mocking the idea of "heteronormative privilege" and telling us that we could all get so much more done if the queers weren't so divisive about their petty little issues.

i've noticed that privilege always sounds more or less the same.

almost universally, people are upset to be called out on their privilege. why is this? is it really so horrible to think that there might be something we personally don't see, because we haven't had to see it yet? to call someone out on their privilege is not to insult them. it is not to say they're a bad person. it's to say that there's something important that they don't understand. it took me a long time to become aware of my white, middle-class privilege- and don't even get me started on how it feels to realize that i had no concept whatsoever of ableism until i became disabled myself.

to straight Democrats: there IS such a thing as straight privilege. please step back from your reaction for a moment. it won't hurt you to listen. to cis people: there IS such a thing as cis privilege. it won't hurt you to listen either, and considering how few of us there are to begin with, it will almost certainly help.

---

by: bugland @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:17:55 PM CDT

There's even such a thing as Trans privilege

It's rather miniscule though.

I'm Right-wing. OK, socially liberal, economically conservative, the exact opposite of what the GOP has become.

But I can say things in a Leftist-dominated discussion and get away with it, when I'd be shouted down if I wasn't in an obviously oppressed minority. People are too darned afraid to be called "transphobic".

I sometimes get a giggle out of watching their heads explode. First the Right-wingers, who when they find out I'm Trans (well, Intersexed but never mind) have Terminal Cognitive Dissonance. I can't exist if their worldview is correct.

But it's those on the Left that really have problems. It Does Not Compute. Worse, the cisgendered ones can't even call me a Class Traitor (or equivalent) without being seen as transphobic.

OK, this privilege isn't much, compared to the 17x greater risk of being murdered, the denial of basic human rights etc. But I'll take what I can get, and sometimes the results are hilarious.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

---

by: ZoeB @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:48:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

that sort of makes me wish i knew more people who are phobic of being called transphobic :-/

seriously, i think you must move in very different circles than i do, since i've never met IRL anyone who actually is socially liberal and economically conservative. i also know  how exhausting it can be to hear a bunch of liberals reassure themselves of how PC they are, but what bothers me most is that much of the time it really does seem to be just lip service. if you can say you worked for civil rights in the 60s, you can apparently expect to be given a free ride on any bullshit you might try to pull. if you're black that makes it OK to be homophobic, and if you're gay that makes it OK to be ableist, and if you're disabled that makes it OK to be racist... and on, and on, and on. seriously, what is so terrible about shutting up about your theoretically universal experience long enough to listen to someone who to whom it doesn't apply?

i really don't care what words people use, except to the extent that the words reflect their biases. for example, a few months ago, a friend of mine called my partner a "tranny". she'd heard me using the word in a different context, had never really heard it elsewhere, and thus had NO IDEA how it would sound when she said it then. she understood what we were saying regarding her use of that word, we understood where she was coming from, and we went on from there. it took a few sentences to resolve.

if she had spent those sentences, and several dozen after them, telling us that it's just a stupid word and we're oppressing her by saying we'd rather she not use it- that's how i would have known that she was NOT a friend.

---

by: bugland @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:12:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thing about this is

the way this continues to be handled really, really reeks of cisgender privilege from the very beginning until this moment.

And that's coming from someone who actually earned the title of Mr. Cisgendered Cissexist Pig. (And I do want a sash!)

Really, I could end much of this in one post if I wanted to, I don't like seeing all of this vitriol.

And it doesn't even matter who makes proper amends at this point. The actions of both Autumn and Kynn have now really, truly, hurt others.

Nothing that a little humility (and less pride) can't cure.

 

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:19:12 PM CDT

All this sturm and drang reminds me of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

(with abject apologies to any single letter or combination of letters and/or self-identifiers out there for trying to inject a bit of humor... not to mention MPFC)

---

by: txmichael @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:06:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Comedy, tragedy, or satyr play?

LOL

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:12:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Depends on your perspective...

http://hhgproject.org/entries/...

The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so basically in order to annoy his wife.

Trin Tragula -- for that was his name -- was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher or, as his wife would have it, an idiot. She would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of time he spent staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics of safety pins, or doing spectrographic analyses of pieces of fairy cake.

'Have some sense of proportion!' she would say, sometimes as often as thirty-eight times in a single day.

And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex, just to show her. Into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so that when he turned it on she haw in one instant the whole infinity of creation and herself in relation to it.

To Trin Tragula's horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain; but to his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively that if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot have is a sense of proportion.

---

by: txmichael @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:25:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pure Aristophanes!

Or maybe even Beckett!

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:40:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Really, I could end much of this in one post if I wanted to...."

How much of this?
Why don't you?

---

by: Pollyanna @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:22:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Already done, Pollyanna

or at least I've done everything that I can do now.

I just don't wanted to be accused of stirring the sh!t even further. I just want to see right made right. I don't want to harm others.

---

by: kevinchi @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:40:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

here's a few important things to me

in no particular order

passing ENDA
passing hate crimes protections
ending DADT
repealing DOMA
ending the war in Iraq
ending all other wars!
universal health care
true equality for all: l,g,b,t,i,q,cis,het, and anyone else I forgot to list in the alphabet
dealing with the inequity between the top 1/10 % who control 90% of the resources, and everyone else who are left with bupkes, nada.
creating a world in which it is safe to be any gender/sex on the continuum, be they binary or non-binary
creating a world in which it is safe to love whoever one chooses, regardless of their sex/gender

---

by: zythyra @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:33:55 PM CDT

What is important to me

Credibility of the management of PHB.
Everything else is secondary.
If the site is run in an Honest manner the site will remain a credible site in spite of the name calling I find offensive in headlines from time to time.

Stuff like Wingnut, and Teabaggers.

Once the management of PHB can prove their honesty this site will have the street cred it once had.

---

by: LiZ @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:03:35 PM CDT

Liz does have a point. . .

but my counterpoint is as such: Tolerance should never, ever be extended to the intolerant. The "wingnuts" are seeking to oppress, they do not deserve tolerance for tolerance of them will perpetuate the oppression.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:38:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And

I'd also like to address the elephant in the room by asking this question; when it is in inordinately large part religion that seeks to oppress LGBT people, are we to be respectful and nice toward religion in an LGBT coffeehouse? I mean I certainly would not go marching into a Baptist church screaming things like "God hates Baptists," but this is OUR church in a sense. This is where I come when I need sustenance. This IS my community. Shit, lets call a spade a spade. If it is exceptable in American society to call LGBTs things like pedophiles, the I'll be damned if I'm giving up my right to free speech by being nice to the "wingnuts" in my own space.

And to clarify for those who are religious, my question is not intended to imply that all religious people or all religious sects are oppressive. But it would be hard to deny that the overwhelming majority of the oppression comes from religion. I have yet to meet an atheist who "hates fags" or seeks to oppress them.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:53:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I know one atheist

"The president should be squirming in his seat. Not smiling," he said. "The black dyke got it wrong. No one told her the rules."

Granted Christopher Hitchens was drunk when he said it.

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:01:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Touché

I like this guy; kevinchi. If I weren't already married. . .

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:29:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Because

You treat people the way you expect to be treated. If they oppress you the best way to make them look bad is to be nice to them.

Kill them with kindness,
It works.  

---

by: LiZ @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:09:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not trying to be antagonostic here but. . .

Exactly how do we kill them with kindness? The "them" being the wingnuts. If you have a viable plan, I'd be happy to adopt it. But I just don't see it. Our enemy is not willing to meet with us and they never fail to lie and cheat. How on earth will we ever kill them with kindness?

An example, my new "sister-in-law" who is a fundie, when told by Nick that we got married last week said, "Oh," and promptly changed the subject. That's all she could say after Nick rescued her from an abusive home as a teenager and then payed for her college education, and not just any college -she went to Pepperdine (the one where Prop 8 defending lawyer Ken Starr is a dean). Then when she moved out after college, she called Nick and said he couldn't be in her life anymore because her church told her to disassociate from her gay brother. I tried my damndest at first to be nice to her, but she has done nothing but attack me with passive aggression.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:36:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am sorry

about your sister in law, some people would rather beat someone with a Bible than read it. The ones who read it will ether be converts or will have the self discipline to treat others as they would have others treat them.

You can't force tolerance on people, you cannot demand it ether. The truly tolerant DON"T need laws to tell how to lead a life that promotes tolerance.

---

by: LiZ @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 22:14:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What is important, we ask?

It couldn't be more clear:

We believe in the inherent human dignity of all people.

DIGNITY AND EQUALITY. Every lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender person has inherent dignity and worth, and has the right to live free of discrimination and harassment.

While we are at it:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I assume these principles and truths are familiar to us all? (Dallas Principles, Declaration of Independence?)

The whole process of who's privileged and how really revolves around the abnegation of the dignity of others.

So don't.

Lemme know when the whole world gets around to doing this...


Hate stops a beating heart.

---

by: KarenS @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:49:13 PM CDT

Oh, boy

You'd think we would have learned from Watergate!

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...

Autumn, I believe it was an honest mistake. Both you and Kynn have done wrong in this situation, IMO. Please don't let this continue.

---

by: kevinchi @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:50:19 PM CDT

someone please delete

this post!

thanks

---

by: kevinchi @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:15:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Priorities

HOw about getting our house in order?

How about getting everyone to stop disrespecting each other -- and, in particular, those who dislike their privilege begin called out being told to get over it and deal so that transfolk can join the discussion?

OH, of course.

That's a wonderful piece of avoidance, a misdirection, and I do indeed know a bit about its formation.

Big picture?  Autumn, in my big picture, we are all less than the specs of sand on a beach, since my big picture tends to incorporate the universe.

Your big picture seems to be more about deflecting things fro your action and your need to apologize regardless of the outcome.

The personal is political, Autumn.

Now since you've set up a wonderful and avoidant framing, of course I will be challenged n my not giving a damn about any of thse things.

Fine. Go ahead.  I can hold my own and then some, and most people here know it, so I don't particularly worry about such things.

This was, however, the last straw for me.  In what way I will make known, but I still kept hoping against hope that you'd stop being so fucking defensive and get on with apologizing so the thing will end.

A week isn't long enough.  You underestimate how pissed people are and how far this has gone. Slap down the chains, it will just make it worse yet again. You do not get anymore chances, and you've struck out.

Right now, to be perfectly blunt, your first priority is still you.

I could tell you why and what and all that, but you'll never see it, glancing over my posts.

Damn I am disappointed in you.

I've got my basket.  But I'll be back.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:13:00 AM CDT

I am so lost and confused by this 'cis' discussion

I took a few days off from the world and came back to a Blend that I really don't recognize.  Hopefully all will return to a friendly yet lively coffee house soon.

I just stumbled onto this post and had absolutly no idea what the argument has been all about. I readily admit that before today I have never heard of the term 'cis' as it relates to gender and sexuality identification.  I consider myself very well read but this one is new for me. So I looked up the term under several dictionaries and other sources. Since this term first came into being just in 1994, it seems that the word has not settled into its own and as such much confusion can occur when the term is used.  

We all should be able to express our honest opinions or misunderstandings if done so in a respectful way.  

Having said all that, I fully respect any and all Blenders here and hope all of the useful debates and discussions may continue.  

Thank you Autumn for refocusing the priorities or certainly the direction we should all be taking here. Namely, let's not get in fist fights over a relatively newly minted term when we have much bigger fish to fry.  

vanhattan

---

by: vanhattan @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:41:38 AM CDT

I am in the same boat you are in.

  I have been gone for a few and came back and things are a mess.  

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 02:07:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

HC, Thanks for the validation as I now don't feel so alone :)

vanhattan

---

by: vanhattan @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 07:20:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

don't try

My suggestion is not to try to understand by going over the whole very long and very contentious discussion-it's all very disconcerting.  I agree with everything else you say.
Love,
Rick Cabral

---

by: RickCabral @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 12:50:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Moderatorial philosophy

I'm a moderator at a large RPG board.  Often, it's not about who through the first snowball, it's who decided to respond with the snowball by grabbing a chunk of sluch and wrapping it in snow and then throwing iceballs.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #

---

by: MileHighDawg @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 07:48:16 AM CDT

i don't know whether you're gay, bisexual, transexual, straight or something else entirely...

as there are straight people here. so i'm wondering: if you are gay, do you enjoy it when a straight person tells you how you should deal with homophobia at the very moment that you are struggling with straight privilege?

if you're are not white, do you enjoy it when a white person tells you how you should handle a given racist incident?

...and so forth.

my point is that there are times to play devils advocate, and times when it might not be such a good idea. using essentially the same language as people who are being actively oppressive does NOT communicate an attempt to relieve oppression. unfortunately, it sounds like just the opposite. part of being an ally is listening to what the people you're allied with and accepting what they tell you they're experiencing instead of telling them what they ought to be thinking and doing, because no amount of good intentions can erase privilege. no matter how hard i fight against racism, i'm still going to be white in a racist society.

for the record, when i called myself an "ally", i was not referring to trans issues; i was thinking of racism and neurodiversity, specifically, although there's no way anyone could have known that. no one knows my personal experience here, because no one has asked. if someone does ask, i will tell them, to the extent that it does not jeopardize my safety.

i really don't think most people involved in this are engaged in a "pissing match to gain power". what power is there to be gained here? the only power in play in the Blend ATM belongs to Pam and the baristas, who have, not incidentally, come down squarely on the side of cis privilege. it's not as if people who disagree with them can take command of the Blend and decide who posts where. that's a major part of the conflict, for heaven's sake.

---

by: bugland @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 12:14:08 PM CDT

As a side note...

As a side note, blenders, imagine yourself trying to moderate a thread of this length for uncivil behavior if people won't moderate their own statements -- so we would maintain that LGBT coffee house lounge feel of PHB.

Using this thread as an example, which comments in this thread would you, the now moderator blender, find to be to be widely offensive, abusive or to be thread-jacking? Or perhaps, found in some other way to be in violation of the Terms Of Service (TOS) -- a TOS that you've actually had to memorize, or reference frequently enough that you know its contents pretty darn well?

So, moderator blender, after determining who has crossed lines in their comment(s), which folk would you just send a friendly warning letter to, which folk would you just send an unfriendly warning letter to, which folk would you send a one week suspension letter to, and which people would you ban outright?

And, what would be your criteria as to which statements crossed the lines to determine which kind of e-warning-letter was issued to each individual you, the moderator blender, deserved an e-letter?

And then too, how much time would you have to set aside to write to each individual e-warning-letter -- even if you had a basic templates for the warning/suspension/banning letters? Would you feel you would need to explain why you sent a specific blender, in your warning email to each of the now-determined-to-be offending blenders, so the individual "offenders" would know why he, she, or ze received an e-warning-letter? Or, would you just send out a bare template letter to each blender you identified as violating the TOS, leaving them to guess how and why those individual blenders crossed that TOS line you determined that the blender crossed?

Just something to think about, blenders. This thread has well over 250 comments in it as I'm writing this, and we've had multiple threads of this length and longer this week. How would you personally moderate a thread that looked like this one if it wasn't free speech week at The Blend? Would you have the time, energy -- or even desire -- to do so?

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 16:07:21 PM CDT

If I were a mod,

I would have realized in advance there was no good to come of this thread and closed it.  Or not started it at all.  It took little foresight to know this is what would have resulted from this thread.

Please stop creating threads just for the purpose of drama, even if other people ask you to.

---

by: TrumpetDC @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 16:24:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Frankly

I think the point of Pam's "experiment" has been clearly shown by posting this piece. It is a testament to the need for moderation because in the absence of it this is what we get.

I would venture to guess that Pam purposefully had Autumn post this piece to show the anarchy resulting from two or three (or one?) rogue posters who are seeking to, IMO, cause harm in order to make their point.

I whole heartedly believe that Keenya, Kevo, Chamomile or whatever the name is is suffering from the same emotional flaw that I do. That is to errantly think that all persons who are not in my "group" are against my sexual orientation or right to marriage. My new hubby, Nick, has been pointing out this flaw to me for years now about my treatment of religious people. I always seem to go on the offensive when religion is brought up as a topic of discussion and it is the first "weapon" I go for when I feel oppressed. But it is my responsibility to work on that and to remember that not all religious people are against me. And to realize that there are times to attack, but more often not to.

The way "cis" has been used in this thread implys that the users have been snap deciding that everyone else is without empathy, compassion or even a basic understanding of trans issues. This is of course not correct. This is after all the "Blend" and I think the majority of those who come here know that.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

---

by: JohnVisser @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 18:51:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Frankly Autumn, I wouldn't do any of the crap you ask about.

So some people were rude to each other. And others piled on.  And some people used naughty words making others clasp their pearls and swoon.

Wow.  That sounds a lot like life.

Get over it.  


Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 16:43:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Having moderated larger and more extensively used sites

I can say that, for free (and, technically, costing me something), I've done all of that and more, routinely.

I can also say that when I screwed up, I apologized.

Since it was something I enjoyed doing, I never used it as an excuse, and I always took the time to explain specifically why I had to ban someone (very, very rare) or vacation them (a little more frequently), but usually I was able to take the discussion (and given that these people were 90% artistically driven and usually dealing with issues surrounding copyright law when it came to flame wars or fights over a particular modeling method or program, it made dealing with LGBT folk seem relatively easy) and solve the issue.

Now, I will say that I have the advantage in this, so the question, for me, isn't exactly a fair one, as I have some small skill in the matter in question (which is language use -- not in the sense of the issues going on, but in the sense that language is something I've worked with for years).

Plus, I did have a set of about 30 basic, ironclad rules, and an ignore feature, which made things significantly easier.

The rules were specific (and based on standard rules of decorum pulled from debate models such as Robert's), explained out with examples, and enforced with a rather light hand.

I was subject to the same rules, as well, even as owner, in order to avoid issues of blatant hypocrisy, and in order to model them (since the site's owners and moderators are responsible for the tone).

Just sayin

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 03:34:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wow.

All I have to say is let's stop throwing snowballs at eachother.  We have plenty of them coming from the "outside."

Actually, I'm happy to have a discussion about this.. it's important to our community.  But here's what I find sad:

A post about meeting legislators to pass important ENDA legislation:  14 comments.

This post about the all-too-tired bickering amongst ourselves... 284 comments.

Obviously it's a focus on the negative instead of moving forward.  Really, there is obviously more energy and thought going into an online battle of words versus getting things done for our community.

Flame me all you want, either side.  I just think we need to examine where our energy should be focused.

---

by: flyerfier @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 17:18:19 PM CDT

Nice post (Comment ratings function disabled??)

Was going to rate your post a 4+ on the old rating scale but I do not see it as an option today.  Has this feature been disabled?

Any way Flyerfier, thanks for your post that sums up my feelings completely. Very well said. No flames here. :)

vanhattan

---

by: vanhattan @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 19:24:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, vanhatten

The ratings system was shut off a few days ago- for a week.

It's been, um, interesting around here for the past 10 days or so...

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:29:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I second

I have to second what vanhattan says.  flyerfier  says what I was thinking but did not know how to express. It didn't occur to me to compare the number of these comments to the number of comments on real issues.
Love,
Rick Cabral

---

by: RickCabral @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 20:08:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It makes you wonder

what The Peter thinks about what is going on, doesn't it?

My America includes LGBT families.

---

by: Mena @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 20:32:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No kidding, Mena.

Their turn for popcorn and chortling, I suppose.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 08:29:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You said it!

Flyerfier is dead on.

Thanks for saying what many of us are thinking.

---

by: ChlorineX @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 09:52:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm a playwright...

...and I have just read this thread from beginning to end.  Would anybody mind if I edited it a bit and did a reading?
I have to say, I think it would be hilarious.  There is nothing funnier than people taking themselves too seriously. This particular tempest in a teapot really says a lot about the state of discourse in the progressive movement. The characters are almost to a one caricatures though, full of self importance, self righteousness and unchained ego, so I'd have to tone that down a bit. No one would believe some of these people were real if put on a stage. The activist totally devoid of humor for example. And I'd probably use fewer names where the "i" is replaced with a "y". Still, I can't resist the idea of one character with an obscurely spelled name constantly screaming "It's pronounced KEEVA!" every time it is mangled.

If you don't think it is play worthy, read it again from the beginning, picturing a meeting hall and a circle of chairs, maybe a blackboard on which the letters "CIS" are written in perfect Palmer method long hand.  And the meeting is graveled to order....

---

by: DavidinPS @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 19:38:41 PM CDT

Of course I meant "gaveled"

---

by: DavidinPS @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 19:54:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think you had it right the first time David

+

Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 04:38:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Heh :D

I liked the "And I'd probably use fewer names where the "i" is replaced with a "y"." part.

Have to say, were I writing a play, I'd likely do the same thing.

But remember the rule of all drama:  it must be believable to some extent to gain the willing suspension of disbelief.

Truth is always stranger than fiction.

Because fiction has to make sense.

Truth seldom does...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 04:56:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

there is another lesson here..several

one might be, how we approach asking for what we want, even if we think we are asking nicely.  if one thinks one asked the question nicely and this is result, then perhaps rethinking how to ask might give a different result.  also, the answer could be no and sometimes it is better to be happy than right.  clearly, no matter who is doing the oppressing, the oppressee needs a way to point it out in a way that the oppressor sees the situation in a new way.  however, sometimes you have to accept that 'they' are not ready mentally and some people never will be.  we cannot insist that a person 'grow' or change so as to not hurt our feelings.  how people react is about them, and how we react is about us.  we must learn how to live in the world with people that are at different stages of understanding and development on any given subject.  as someone mentioned above, i have a bias about religion, against it.  when meeting someone religious i am automatically on the defensive.  however, that is all about me and my ego.  when my emotions are raised like that i know that this is a problem for me to work on.  it is my hot button issue.  i know that i will be a right fighter, one upper, sanctimonious, etc because i 'know' something about them that they don't.  i treat them like an enemy and that is how they respond.  i am more self aware now and i can catch myself sooner before start digging that hole.  i used to try to hang out and post at the neal boortz site.  i was the lone liberal homo there and i got bashed regularly for spoiling all the ranting fun they had, even when i asked nicely and rarely.  i wanted to find a nonliberal site to get the different perspective.  neal boortz is gay friendly and pot and abortion friendly.  his posters are not.  there is no empathy there.  i tried to hang but in the end i chose to leave because i felt mired in negativity and would become upset.  i was not learning as i had been in the beginning and i was not making a positive difference.  i came here to get different perspectives and some comraderie with fellow glbt folks.  the intellect and analysis and writing skills here at the blend are head and shoulders above any other site.  however this is proof positive that emotion trumps intellect and people cannot self moderate without self awareness.  i look forward to the return of the moderator.  i for one am going to once again force myself away from the odd seduction of negativity.  i think it is a drug and i'm trying to break the addiction.  

---

by: swabby @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 07:43:58 AM CDT

A simple, true, apology could end all this.

I've had to say this countless times in countless internet dramas.

Apologise.
Admit your wrongs.
Say what was your fault.
Identify how you could have handled things better.
Own your words, and where they were wrong admit they were wrong.

Do not try to deflect blame onto others, even if they goaded you.
Do not say "but you won't accept it so why do I bother".
Do not try to disown past statements, or try to invent context for them that makes them look better.
Do not phrase an apology as an attack on those who are angry at you.
Do not put out a convoluted 'correction of my statements' that make Sarah Palin's speeches look lucid.

Passive aggressive 'non-apology apologies' actually make things fundamentally worse. People are actually more likely to accept an obviously insincere but straightforward apology over a passive aggressive 'non-apology apology'. Passive aggressive behaviour when giving an 'apology' not only diminishes any effect of apologising, it has the reverse effect in that it is taken as an insult to those who were expecting a straight forward apology.

So far neither Pam or Autumn have done much straight forward apologising, and too much passive aggressive non-apology apologising.

Worse, in outing Kynn's dreamwidth account details, they blurred the line that says 'outing' is unacceptable. The correct response was this - "We have determined from evidence that Caoimhe is the recreation of Kynn's account, in light of that the account has been banned." What Pam and Autumn went on to do was purely vindictive, added to the drama, and had no benefit. It has established precedent of 'upset us and we will publish potentially damaging details about you'.

If Pam and Autumn continue in this way, and refuse to see the damage they have done to their community, there is little hope the community can continue to respect them as leadership.

I would not currently be able to call this site 'T Tolerant'. Perhaps 'T Barely Tolerant So Long As They Don't Get Uppity'.

---

by: JayBlanc @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 09:57:41 AM CDT

No damage here...

but thanks for looking out for me and my* community.

---

by: woolfy @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 10:04:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Seriously

I thought better of you than this, Pam. Outing someone because they disagree with you? Come on.

---

by: Darkrose @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 13:52:19 PM CDT

Some "outing"!

A troll with multiple i.d.'s here has multiple made-up names out on the interwebs and multiple web pages. And pointing out a couple of those aliases is an "outing"? Who's zooming who here?

Hey, guess what?  Kynn is actually Rachel Roo.  And I'm Rachel's aunt. Pass it on.

See, anyone can play.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 15:07:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pollyanna

While I understand your related point, its still an outing.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 21:45:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you can't out someone who outed themselves

the page is publicly accessible, and the very information she's concerned about is still up there. That hardly looks like outing to me. It's not about a disagreement, it's about sockpuppetry. If anyone comes on here doing that crap, they must be exposed as frauds.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 20:12:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

what happened to kim pearson's posts

and who else has had posts deleted.

---

by: maevele @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 18:33:01 PM CDT