VA: Court rules against fired gay employee, exposes limits of Gov. Kaine's exec order protections

not happening

This type of bill has almost no chance of passage given the makeup of the General Assembly.  The Commonwealth will likely get protections forced from the federal level with ENDA.  

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by: arsenalchick @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 09:38:40 AM CDT

Yeah but...

we can hit them in the pocketbook.  A quick glance yielded these corporate sponsors:

Pfizer:
contact info: http://www.pfizer.com/contact/...

Geico:
contact info: http://www.geico.com/about/con...

Chick-fil-A:
contact info: http://www.chick-fil-a.com/#fe...

Finally, let the museum know just how you feel:
contact info: http://www.vmnh.net/contact.cfm

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by: Gary SF @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 17:41:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What's very disturbing is that

Kaine says that he will enforce the Executive Order through the greivance process, which includes the right of appeal to the Circuit Court. This is precisely what we attempted and we got nowhere.  More disturbing, Kaine did NOTHING in terms of holding anyone accountable.  My opinion is that Kaine signed the Executive Order to appease LGBT interest groups with no intention of it ever being used or enforced.  And now he's DNC chair.

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by: Michael-in-Norfolk @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 09:53:34 AM CDT

Sounds

like he learned from Obama (or vice versa).  Give them a Pyrrhic victory -- something that doesn't mean anything but makes me look good, at least to some people -- gets me some applause from certain groups -- but in the end I ain't gonna do anything that has any real meaning.

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by: texasman @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 12:27:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Disappointed"

Can we talk a minute about this word?

I am disappointed when I find that an episode of my favorite TV show is a rerun this week.

I am disappointed when a friend forgets to call on my birthday.

When Michael Hamar looses a major civil rights case allowing thousands to be fired from their jobs for no reason other than that they are gay, you'd think he could summon up something stronger to describe his feelings than "disappointed."

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by: DavidinPS @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 10:36:16 AM CDT

Don't want to be a debbie downer

but I'm beginning to believe no executive order, law or what have you will ever help us achieve equality.

Even after all of the painstaking moves over our short history to pass laws to help Black people achieve equality have fallen short.  The disparities are easy to see.  

Even if we do pass laws... The people with the power to control our daily lives will still be behind.  Yeah, a majority is in favor of equality.. but those who really can put that into force want to keep the status quo.  It keeps them powerful.

(Boy I woke up on the negative side of the bed!)

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by: flyerfier @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 10:42:40 AM CDT

Laws aren't designed to "help us achieve equality"

The kind of equality you're suggesting, which pretty much means total acceptance and no discrimination ever, is a chimera.  It will never happen, at least not in the lifetime of anyone reading this.  The laws we seek are designed to provide a legal framework for us to seek redress when we do encounter discrimination.  Period.  Unrealistic attitudes about "equality" and self-defeating attitudes toward legal protections are just that: self-defeating.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 14:59:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I respectuflly disagree

The Bill of Rights, 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments and other laws do exist to protect minority interests. Initially, the Founders sought to protect the minority of landed white males and business owners because they feared mob rule in a pseudo democracy where laws would be written and Constitution eventually amended.

Little by little protections have been afforded to other minorities like children born out of wedlock, racial minorities and women. They must be extended to the GLBTQ community, and this community needs equal protection and suspect class status. Period.

As wacky as Pennsylvania is, we have House Bill 300 that made it out of committee and is hanging out in Appropriations right now:

"An Act amending the act of October 27, 1955 (P.L.744, No.222), known as the Pennsylvania Human Relations Act, further providing for findings and declaration of policy, for right to freedom from discrimination in employment, housing and public accommodation; defining "sexual orientation" and "gender identity or expression"; and further providing for unlawful discriminatory practices, for powers and duties of commission, for education program and for construction and exclusiveness of remedy."

Educate me.

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by: BethCA66 @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 15:49:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Constitutional amendments aren't at issue here

What's being discussed is an executive order in VA.  If the Reconstruction amendments already provided ample protection, we wouldn't need ENDA, DOMA, DADT repeal, hate crimes laws or any of the other measures our community is fighting for.  The constitution lays the theoretical framework; the laws are the bricks and mortar that will guarantee us civil treatment, i.e. legal redress under the constitution.  They are the tools that will make it possible to see that constitutional protections are actually enforced, not simply given lip service as in the VA case we're discussing in this thread.

HB 300 is an ideal example of what I'm talking about.  It will provide legal recourse for LGBT Pennsylvanians who encounter discrimination.  Period.  It will not put an end to discrimination against us, any more than the existing Human Relations Act has ended discrimination against black Pennsylvanians (see Valley Swim Club).  Anyone who thinks otherwise is being awfully naive.

I am not interested in picking up crumbs of compassion thrown from the table of someone who considers himself my master. I want the full menu of rights.  -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

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by: QScribe @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 18:41:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Const is a law, though. n/t

Educate me.

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by: BethCA66 @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 18:44:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hmm close...

but I wasn't really talking about that when I wrote my original comment.

I agree with you about laws not being designed to help us achieve equality.  

I was thinking more like, perhaps, these laws are always worthless.  Perhaps the government isn't the real power we believe it to be?

Sorry, I was reading about the C street and secret religious groupage in power and it got me feeling all zeitgeist this morning.

But yes, if things be how they seem laws will never bring about equality.. only help bring recourse, legally, if we are discriminated against.  Never thought a law would change the mind of any average joe... look how many disregard speed limit laws.  That law doesn't make people agree that 50 is a safe speed, but if someone hits you from behind going 60... you have reason to seek legal action.

Legal and social change don't necessarily go hand in hand.

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by: flyerfier @ Mon Jul 13, 2009 at 02:38:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, the courts have basically no enforcement powers apart from the executive branch, BUT you can use them to hurt people in the pocketbook

And while you may not change hearts and minds through litigation, sometimes you can change their behavior.

And that's the first step for some.

Stop the behavior, protect people's rights, and then the younger ones start to accept that this is the law and accept this is the way it is.

Who here has heard someone seriously say that women shouldn't vote?

I'm not saying it's the only way to affect change, but it's an adjunct approach. A powerful one.

Educate me.

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by: BethCA66 @ Mon Jul 13, 2009 at 09:10:22 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

right on the money there, Beth

Stop behaviors first, then time has to heal the rest.  

There is a lot of force in human society to keep things the same, thus we take the slow Easy Bake Oven route of social change :)

The laws help us screw in a higher wattage bulb and we anticipate the cupcake of justice.  Just gotta keep on our toes and make sure it stays plugged in.

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by: flyerfier @ Mon Jul 13, 2009 at 09:38:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes. And I've been replying hither, thither and yon all in the wrong place. Sorry to cause confusion. We are on the same page.

I will learn this comment system, dammit! :-)

Educate me.

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by: BethCA66 @ Mon Jul 13, 2009 at 11:09:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Another route to protest the situation

How about the lesbigay community go after the Natural History Museum and its Board?  Lets find a list of contributors and ask them not to fund a homophobic organization.

Virgina is a racist, sexist, homophobic state.  Lets not kid ourself nothing is going to change there till they are forced to.

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by: mwfolsom @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 11:08:13 AM CDT

we're talking southwestern VA here

You may have some bastions of liberalism within the local Universities in the area but the area is overwhelmingly Palinesque.

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by: ol cranky @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 12:15:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, but...

If any of the contributors are national corporations, it is most certainly possible to go after them to withdraw their support.

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 15:33:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Virginia is for HATERS

and so is Kaine. Why the hell the DNC is run by that bigot is dumbfounding. Governor Dean had his issues with firing the LGBT outreach guy, but Kaine drags us back pre-Stonewall.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 12:46:56 PM CDT

huh?

I'm no fan of mainstream Democrats, but what exactly is the evidence that Kaine is a bigot?  Yes, he failed to stand up as much as he should have on this case, and in general for LGBT rights in Virginia, but I'm not sure that makes him a bigot.  Rather, I think that makes him a politician unwilling to take risks in our defense.

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by: LauraG @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 15:03:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The difference is meaningless to me

The difference between ‘bigot’ and ‘political calculator’ is a matter of motivation. Whether he hates queer folk or not, he is not acting as an ally. It is his acts that matter to me.

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by: pgraydon @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 17:59:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Evidence?

http://shakespearessister.blog...

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by: Kokas @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 18:32:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OK

It looks like Kaine has acted like a bigot (in partial defense of my ignorance, those offensive actions/decisions were before I moved (part-time) to Virginia).  Thanks for providing the information.

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by: LauraG @ Mon Jul 13, 2009 at 11:47:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

He's GUTLESS, certainly not a leader for Democrats. and sure as hell not for LGBTS

Maybe Democrats didn't get the hint the gAyTM is closed....but they will. Try running a Democrat in ANY major city that LGBTs don't support...yeah do that honey.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Mon Jul 13, 2009 at 15:07:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

how about firing museum director Tim Gette ...

I would guess that Gette reports to the Board of Trustees of the museum, and they in turn evaluate Gette's performance.

Understanding the Board took no action in the beginning and that this case has been tried ... how about if the Board was petitioned to fire Gette for evaluating and firing an employee based on factors irrelevant to job performance?  

Yes, anti-gay prejudice and discrimination are at the heart of this, but I think there's mileage to be gained by focussing on Gette's competence as a director.  He may as well have fired Mr. Moore because Moore likes Italian food or wears bow ties.  In this way, perhaps gayness, anti-gay prejudice, and the existence of a valid non-discrimination statute (or not) are less at issue here than whether or not Gette is executing his duties responsibly and competently.  Sure, it may be legal to fire someone for being queer, but it is also de facto incompetent management.

Yep, a statute is still a must, but in the meantime ..

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by: 555catnap @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 12:52:34 PM CDT

This should wake the LGBT community up

We need LAWS for protection, not executive orders or policies. Fight for your rights. Your legal rights.

Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles, and see that the world is moving."
-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

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by: T2inDC @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 13:08:52 PM CDT

Legal analysis

"It looks as if they're saying the executive order in 2006 doesn't basically do anything"

Its the same thing that most legal analysts from reality have always said.  Executive orders are not worth the paper they are printed on.  Within the government in question, they can only possibly have any effect up to the point in the food chain where someone decides to ignore them - and then?  No recourse.

Bruce Springsteen asked, "Is a dream a lie if it don't come true?  Or is it something worse?"

I'd say executive orders are something worse, because they not only do not help but they also lull people into believing that things are better than they are.

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 13:34:51 PM CDT

This is so f**ked up.

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by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 14:00:37 PM CDT

It's Chinatown, Jake

Sorry, but the line from the very cynical movie is what comes to mind when I think about Virginia and any rights for gays and lesbians in that most benighted of states.

When equality comes to Virginia -- and it will, some day -- it will be from federal court (probably SCOTUS) rulings. That applies to equality in employment, in public accommodations, in adoption, in marriage, in everything.

Trust me, Virginia legislators will cut off all their toes before voting for equality in any matter. And it will remain that way.

It's Virginia, Jake.

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by: S1 @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 14:12:01 PM CDT

Association with Smithsonian?

If you go to Virginia Museum of Natural History's web site you will see they claim a association with the Smithsonian.  One wonders if the Smithsonian has a code of ethics that it and entities associated with it must live by?  No matter how backwards the Virginia Museum is the Smithsonian won't want to be associated with a bunch of rabid homophobes.

The also have a facebook page.  Seems like there is lots that can be done.  

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by: mwfolsom @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 15:17:47 PM CDT

I could be wrong, but....

I think the "in association with" tag merely means that the VA Museum is part of an Affiliated Museum program. You sign up with your local museum (or zoo, or whatever) and have access to a range of benefits like free or reduced-price entrance to related institutions around the country (or world).

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by: Pollyanna @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 15:35:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why should the Smithsonian

Sell reduced-rate tickets to members of the Virginia Museum of Bigotry and Intolerance?

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 15:43:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Very Good!

Makes no difference what personnel policies or code of ethics the Smithsonian may have.

Demand the Smithsonian sever their ties. If the Smithsonian refuses, mount demonstrations against the Smithsonian in DC.

Attack the Smithsonian for being anti-gay and against equal rights. Don't even mention the Virginia museum. Make the Smithsonian explain that the protest is about their relationship with the Virginia museum.

Let tourists assume that Smithsonian is a hotbed of bigots.

The Smithsonian will be forced to explain that THEY aren't the bigots and that they just have relationships with bigots --

When you're explaining, you're losing, so make the Smithsonian explain themselves.

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 15:41:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

P. S.

By protesting the Smithsonian, we can bring into question Obama's memorandum - which doesn't even rise to the level of an executive order.

By the way, if it turned out that the Virginia museum didn't hire blacks, how long do you think it would take the Smithsonian to sever all ties?

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. -- John F. Kennedy (inspired by Dante's Inferno)

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by: oldbrit @ Sun Jul 12, 2009 at 15:45:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually, gender identity and expression have been covered by the previous legislative attempts

Notably, trans protections are not called for, so whoever works on writing up a bill needs to get that on the radar.

Actually, they have been on the radar for a while now, in a weird way. This year's HB2385, which failed in committee, would have protected public employees from employment discrimination based on gender identity or expression. The rub is that the bill first lists only “sexual orientation” among the protected groups:

No state agency, institution, board, bureau, commission, council, or instrumentality of the Commonwealth shall discriminate in employment based on race, color, religion, national origin, sex, pregnancy, childbirth or related medical conditions, age, marital status, disability, sexual orientation, or status as a special disabled veteran or other veteran covered by the Vietnam Era Veterans Readjustment Act of 1974, as amended.

… but then goes on to define sexual orientation to include gender identity and expression:

For the purposes of this section, “sexual orientation” means a person’s actual or perceived heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality, or gender identity or expression. Sexual orientation shall not include any person's attraction towards persons with whom sexual conduct would be illegal due to the age of the parties.

Personally, I am both grateful that Del. Adam Ebbin sees fit to include transfolk and miffed that he feels the need to do so in such a back-door way.

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by: pgraydon @ Mon Jul 13, 2009 at 11:07:53 AM CDT