ESPN's LZ Granderson Comments That Gay Isn't The New Black

Ahhh....

But you also missed that he made mention of the fact that not only do LGBT organizations largely have a white face (and usually male) but that the LGBT community is itself rife with blatant racism. He is correct that it looks silly to many black Americans (including black LGBT people like myself) for this community to demand instant gratification now on the equality front, (and to toss grenades at black Americans about homophobia) when this community has a hard time even acknowledging that it has a serious problem with race (not to mention gender/sex and class).

Autumn, you have yourself noted that many LGBs will sell out trans folks at the drop of a hat if it means getting what they want. At the heart of this community is a largely selfish group of spoiled, petulated, entitled folks that want what they want now and will kick anyone not like them to the curb to get it.

Its one of the reasons that this "community" such as it is, lacks cohesion. Its not a very welcoming place. Its hard for others to identify with the LGBT struggle given that the face of the "struggle" is

1) not really struggling

and

2) Are pretty blatant in their apathy about the struggles of others.

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by: SciFi Geek @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:13:08 PM CDT

bingo

As a GWM, I have to say that this is right on.  And it doesn't help that the people that always get on TV like John Aravosis lack any sense of an intersectional understanding of oppression.

I felt like the author of the CNN piece wasn't trying to rank oppression, but make the same point that Alex at bilerico has made:  that many white gays appointed by the MSM as the mouthpiece of our movement don't really understand how movements for civil equality work.

Considering what a poor job schools generally do teaching the Civil Rights Movement, I get the feeling that many Americans who haven't been otherwise educated assume that the Civil Rights Movement went something like this:

Slavery ended and 100 years of Jim Crow happened..
Things were bad for Black people in the US.
One day, Rosa Parks got tired of it all and refused to give up her seat in the bus.
She inspired a movement, and an eloquent leader emerged in Martin Luther King.
MLK spoke for African Americans and organized rallies until he was assassinated.
In this time period and a bit afterwards, important civil rights legislation was passed.
All better!

That's just not how political change happens; that's not how movement building has ever worked.

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by: kevinerickson @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:38:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Are you sure about this?

"the LGBT community is itself rife with blatant racism"

Really?

Honestly, I really doubt that everyone in the community is rife with blatant racism.  Maybe you're looking at things through Chicago-colored glasses.  Just remember that Chicago is itself highly self-segregating.


# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #

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by: MileHighDawg @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 00:30:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I recall very racist gay men in the 70's, but I can't say it is evident in my friends

There was some friction and some self segregating in clubs in the Twin Cities. But I think heterosexuals by and large are farther behind in racial tollerance than LGBTs. I've dated men of various races with no issues about it, and I know a few inter-racial couples in NOLA very well.
The self segregating isn't anything which can be imposed to stop.
LGBTs POC can better speak to the differences they find as far as racism in the LGBT community vs. racism and homobigotry they encounter in straight groups.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 00:47:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Anytime there are a lot of white people anywhere...

A percentage of them are going to be racist.  Gay, straight, Christian, etc, whatever.

But when it comes to the greater gay communinity (whatever that actually entails), who really DOES feel included?

When I read the comments about "not feeling like a part of the larger gay pride movement," I really wish I could have the explained to me in detail.  

It's not that I'm trying to say there isn't a point to be made about racism in the GLBT community, because there is.  I've seen it and I know it continues to exist.   But when we're talking exclusion - especially when it comes to bar behavior and pride, because I hate to break it him, but as a pudgy, extremely hairy, average looking gay (and admittedly white) male, I don't necessarily feel all that "included" when I attend events, bars, rallies, etc with the gay community at large - I don't necessarily think it's all about race all the time.

As for those who snort that we are looking for "instant gratification," I don't know that many of us are.  I think we'd like things to improve in our lifetimes, and indeed they have.  Maybe we'd like to see things move a little faster simple because we're operating on the (possibly false) assumption that humankind SHOULD be be a little wiser than they were four hundred (or even forty years ago).

And just out of curiosity, who is perpetuating the "gay is the new black" meme?  Generally when I hear the gay community's struggle compared to that of African-Americans that's immediately shot down (and often by a well meaning white person).  I sometimes feel that the people constantly reminding us that gay is NOT the new black are the ones reminding us that anyone believed that in first place.

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by: Kringas @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:07:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Anytime there are people there will be racism, sexism, homobigotry, classism, discrimination on disabilities,etc

All these things were taught overtly or covertly in every household in America. A person can struggle to rid themselves of this garbage, and part of getting rid of it, is to recognise how pervasive it all is/was.
Some of this stuff is so common place and accepted, that until it is pointed out as offensive, it just continues.
Advertisers who sell their products playing with stereotypes, have to be held accountable, each time.
Organizations have to make reasonable efforts to be as inclusive as they can,  to offer seats at the table to every historicly excluded members. Those groups who fail to make this effort, will be winnowed out, from being recognised as speaking for our community.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:47:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Always amused by the implication that gays haven't been around for very long.

It's like they think we're the byproduct of some sort of industrial accident in the 1980's.

Guess what? Gay people were punished with death and worse long before white people had even discovered Africa. Not that it frankly should make a difference which group has suffered longer, since I'm fighting for equality TODAY, not to somehow avenge people who are long dead.

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by: Pender @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:22:46 PM CDT

The first recorded execution for sodomy in the Americas

1646 - "Jan Creoli, a Negroe" in New Netherland.

Followed that year by William Plaine, New Haven, Connecticut (yes, that New Haven) for committing sodomy twice in England and corrupting "a great part of the youth of Guilford by masturbations"

Citation: Homosexuality and the law By Chuck Stewart, page 266

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by: txmichael @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:52:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yep, and the gruesome history goes back at least into

the Abrahamic tribes. It's right there in Leviticus, as the nut-cases are so happy to remind us.

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by: Pender @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 16:55:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh Bullcrap

The idea that gays do not compare to blacks based on an overly simplified recent history of gays is such an insult. The idea that people continue not only to stereotype us but also deem it acceptable to stereotype our history is really starting to get annoying. Yet that is nothing the African American community can Identify with I am sure. I am not trying to start a pissing contest but gay people have been disappearing off the face of the planet for years. And not just at the hands of the police. In our case even some family members have joined in "the fun".

However, the idea that there is comparison to the African American community on many levels is just a matter of history. African Americans didn't just fight for their freedom. They also fought for the right to marry, the right to stand as equals in a society where everyone claimed such a right. Even military service was a hard fought option for African Americans.

However regardless of what position we take there is one respect where we will always compare to the African Americans who fought for civil rights. The African American fight for civil rights in the United States was the first to peacefully advance a minority group to equal status in the face of an opposing majority in that same society. It is the civil rights movement that is the mold. As such every civil rights movement compares to it and to deny otherwise is to short change the very dept and breath of the African American rise to equality and our experience in America. As an African American and a homosexual I am always disappointed that people can't see my life through my eyes.  

Always thinking about it...

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by: kudo451 @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:40:10 PM CDT

I am not the New Black but I am definately the Blue black!!!

...

Always thinking about it...

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by: kudo451 @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:45:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What about women

Not to be flippant, but I'm pretty sure the suffrage movement was happening before the Civil Rights struggle. A lot of people forget that a full half of our society was considered property of their fathers or husbands after slavery ended. And a lot of those suffragists were working on abolition and the Civil Rights movement before it was named.
Are they discounted because they didn't suffer enough according to some African-American leaders?

I don't like the idea of the LGBT community claiming "Gay is the new Black", because blacks are still at a disadvantage in our society compared to the "standard" of straight, white men. That comparison is something both of our groups are struggling against, and we are stronger if we come together to change society instead of fighting with each other.
But I will not hesitate to call a bigot out when they are espousing beliefs that would take away my basic civil rights, no matter their color.

Time to Stand! ProtestForHumanRighs.com

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by: Enigmas @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:57:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

They were in fact discounted

Women;'s suffrage and black suffrage were concurrent issues in the Reconstruction era. When the bills finally hit the floor, women had been stripped out. The women asked the black men to support their demands and they did not.

Some of the women, long time abolitionists, made unfortunate remarks during the arguments...

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:38:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

not all the advances in the Civil Rights movement were from peaceful means

Acting as if a ONLY a pure non-violent MLK movement was all that made Civil Rights gains, denies the entire spectrum of what occured.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 00:56:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fine, I concede your point.

Gay is NOT the new black. You win!  No argument from me.  Gay doesn't even have anything to do with black.  Not even a close comparison.  Not even in the same universe.

Now, let's talk about whether or not gay people should be allowed to have civil unions.  Can we please talk about it in a vacuum?  Let's leave out all the red herrings and all the bait-and-switch baloney.

Do gays deserve the right to not be discriminated against when it comes to employment, serving in the military, forming families, passing on their estates, etc.?  

It seems to me that no one in the straight world wants to responsibly engage in this discussion.  Why not?  Um, straight privilege, recent Christian church history, political suicide, easy-to-explain-away-gay-if-straight-syndrome, etc.  Whatever.

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by: Narra @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:41:57 PM CDT

I have a bit of a problem with this quote.

'I guess what also matters to me is that LGBT non-profit organizations tend put too caucasian a face to their spokespeople when there is as much overlap between communities as there is.'

It seems to me that this glosses over one of the hardest conundrums volunteer organizations have -- even those that have the money to front themselves with 'professionals':

People come together and organize -- largely with the energy of those who "step up" and contribute.  The make-up of the original group tends to be homogenous. Others in the larger community either want to or are asked to join in -- but they see the homegeneity as a barrier.

Rather than work through the issues, camps form that reinforce bad behaviors.

The "outsiders" complain that the "insiders" aren't doing enough to bring them in. Loudly. and usually in terms that have little to do with the mission or accomplishments of the original group, but focused on what makes the insiders different from the outsiders.

The "insiders" complain that they're being unfairly targeted and given the typical browbeating they do when trying to reach out, they give up and become more insular.

Any "outsiders" that do join in get labeled as sell-outs and everyone settles into their own little purity circles.

Diversity and inclusion are not one-way streets... and it's high time we start acting accordingly.

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by: txmichael @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:42:53 PM CDT

no apologies

wow, you nailed it.  I'm tired of apologizing cuz I'm a middle aged, middle class, gay white man.  I work hard, I volunteer, and I volunteer, and I show up.

I always show up.  I'm a VP of a non-profit that I'm proud to be a founding member ... I'm tired of being criticized for the reasons that you've just articulated.  Anyone that wants to participate is encouraged.  My limited free time is dedicated to DOING the work.  I would love ANYONE to step up and work too.  My husband is a man of color, who was not always comfortable standing up in public: either because of immigration status, or simply fear of public speaking.  I have neither problem.  

The color of my skin or my gender does NOT hinder my attackers either the rednecks of my youth or the PC police in the LGBT community.  The color of my skin and my gender does NOT hinder my passion or compassion for civil justice!


Just my 2 cents,
Mickey

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by: queervortex @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:08:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

With this comment...

You prove conclusively that you don't get it. All are cllearly NOT welcomed. Plenty of people try to "show up" and are shut out.

I can personally say that as a black man I repeatedly tried to get involved with LGBT organizations. Getting them to accept the help or actually make use of it has always been like pulling teeth.

Every time I hear some privilledged white guy talk about how POC don't stand up or they can't find people, I immediately call BS. There are plenty of us that have tried to get involved and get shut out. At some point people get tired of being shown the door and move on.

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by: SciFi Geek @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 19:06:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I had a similar problem with one particular LGBT organization.

Excited to join, shocked that I was shut out, made to feel not welcome no matter what.

Know what I did about it?  I took it over at their very next elections and I ran it for five years.

The group went from having a reputation of being hostile to newcomers to being a place where everybody knew they were welcome.  Even after I've left it, I still meet people who recognize me or my name and praise the work I did there.  Now I'm thinking about filling a local niche by starting a new group.

If you're consistently being turned away from every group, then you have to wonder why.  If it's really that your local community is run by racists, then starting your own group sounds like a necessity to me, for everyone's benefit.

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by: diablorobotico @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 19:47:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

IF Gay is the New Black, THEN Trans is the New Woman?

(With apologies to trans men!)

Actually, I'm serious about the parallels in the struggles for human rights.

The women's rights movement grew out of the abolitionist movement. Women were involved in the abolitionist movement. Abolitionists were divided about whether to be inclusive of women's rights.

When the 14th, 15th, and 16th Amendments were passed, women were told to wait.  Women, including African-American women, had to wait a long time for the right to vote.

Even the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was not originally intended to include women as a protected class.  The amendment to do this was actually propounded by an opponent who wanted to kill the bill.

Looking to the movement for "gay" rights as it relates to the movement for "trans" rights:

Trans people were involved in the "gay" rights movement from the beginning.  There has been controversy in the "gay" community as to the inclusion of trans rights.

Often enough, when hate crimes and human rights bills are passed that include protection for gay people, they leave trans people behind.  trans people have often been told that we have to "wait."

The thing that all these movements have in common is that they are all civil rights movements, and all have much in common.

For example, if one were to take the 20-25 reported examples of the murders of trans people each year, it would correlate based on the size of the population to a lynching rate per 10,000 in estimated population of between 1.5 and 3 - roughly comparable to the lynching rate for the African-American population in the 1930's.

My civil rights are no more or no less worthwhile than the civil rights to be accorded to others.  Bigotry and discrimination are ugly things, no matter who is in the oppressed population, and who is the oppressor.

Sadly, members of one marginalized community will sometimes find a way to work toward the marginalization of other communities - perhaps in part because oppressing another minority might elevate the oppressor group's sense of self-worth.  I don't appreciate it when one group tries to keep others from using the term "civil rights" to describe their struggle for rights.  It is, after all, the same thing, even when there are differences.  None of us are truy free until all of us are free.

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by: Joann Prinzivalli @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:48:31 PM CDT

A moron is a moron is a moron...

...even when they're black.

Granderson writes as if gays were never killed with impunity by the police and "gay panic" murderers. [And, trans people, too.]

Granderson forgets that gays have been banned in the military since BEFORE Truman racially integrated it.

Granderson writes as if gays were only white. [And, yes, trans, too.]

The bottomline is that Granderson is playing the race card simply to defend Obama not on substance but because he's black [actually biracial but....]. AKA judging him "not by the content of his character but by the color of his skin." Somewhere Jasmyne Cannick is having a rare multiple orgasm.

Granderson's an ESPN contributor? WOW! Alert the Pulitzer and Nobel committees. In the meantime, please forward the following to Granderson by someone with just a few better credentials to comment on the subject: gay AND black Bayard Rustin, Martin Luther King, Jr.'s, tutor in Gandhian nonviolent civil disobedience, drafter of the charter of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, beaten, arrested, and sentenced to a chain gang for Freedom Rides to integrate buses years before anyone had ever heard of Rosa Parks, and organizer of the 1963 "I Have A Dream" March on Washington. He said this OVER 20 YEARS AGO:

"Today, blacks are no longer the litmus paper or the barometer of social change. Blacks are in every segment of society and there are laws that help to protect them from racial discrimination. The new 'niggers' are gays. No person who hopes to get politically elected, even in the deep South...would dare stand in the school door to keep blacks out. Nobody would dare openly and publicly argue that blacks should not have the right to public accommodations. Nobody would dare to say any number of things about blacks that they are perfectly prepared to say about gay people. It is in that sense that gay people are the new barometer for social change.

Indeed, if you want to know whether today people believe in democracy if you want to know whether they are true democrats, if you want to know whether they are human rights activists, the question to ask is, 'What about gay people?' Because that is now the litmus paper by which this democracy is to be judged. The barometer for social change is measured by selecting the group that is most mistreated. To determine where society is with respect to change. one does not ask, 'What do you think about the education of children'? Nor does one ask, 'Do you believe the aged should have Social Security." The question of social change should be framed with the most vulnerable group in mind: gay people."

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:48:47 PM CDT

You took the words right off of my keyboard.

LZ Granderson decries the ignorance of others while demonstrating that he has more than plenty of his own.

Besides, this "argument" is idiotic.  All hate is EXACTLY the same.  The purpose of all hate is EXACTLY the same.  The result of all hate is EXACTLY the same.

It would be nice if Granderson actually knew what he was talking about before setting himself up as an expert on it.

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by: diablorobotico @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:46:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Whatever you do, don't trust anyone LGBT.

It was obviously a big mistake to try to win support from a key minority group like the black community by appealing to them with our LGBT struggles and being so rude and ridiculous as to assert that our struggle is ANYTHING like the black struggle.  Clearly it was wrong headed and we have now been set straight by the black community leaders who would never concede any similarities exist because it would gasp align our two communities in a highly uncomfortable way......The black community does not want to be dragged down into the nasty LGBT struggle as they have (especially the Christians) risen up as high as ever before in this country and don't want to screw that up now by associating with us losers.  And whatever they do, they will definitely not be trusting any LGBT POC to tell them ANYTHING about what being gay is like or how understanding more about it might lead to at least some empathy, if not outright votes in our favor.  

So, thanks again for taking us impudent, white, high class, shiny, clueless gay folk and putting us in our place.  End of story.  No further discussion needed at this time.

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by: Narra @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 15:55:54 PM CDT

Um...

Clearly you did not read the article.  The author is an LGBT POC.  His principle concern is the lack of understanding among LGBT folks about what a civil rights movement really looks like.

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by: kevinerickson @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 16:35:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

PUHLEEZE

Little Alex @ Bilerico claims to be Latino but, if his dorky picture is any indication, he passes for white quite well, thank you.

What he doesn't pass for is the objective intellectual he thinks he is. Quoting him on anything is like quoting Pee Wee Herman on nuclear physics.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:23:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

wow.

That's some racist bullshit right there.

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by: kevinerickson @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 18:11:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

plus

i am obviously referring to LZ Granderson, who is an LGBT POC

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by: kevinerickson @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 18:14:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

a moron is a moron is a moron

and Michael Bedwell is obviously in the front of that line. Latinos, like LGBT persons, can be black, white, yellow, red, or any combination of those. We don't need to "pass" for anything. Pee Wee Herman is probably much more intelligent than Bedwell, judging from his moronic comment.  

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by: kukito @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 21:13:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not the point

But thanks for calling me a moron. LOL.

For anyone confused, my point was, when I thought that kevinerickson was trying to certify the superior credibility of Alex Blaze [rather than Granderson] because he's supposedly an "LGBT POC" was that, based on his photo [and name] alone no one would discriminate against him on the basis of his being "POC" because he didn't display any of the typical external cues to bigots.

If Granderson is an "LGBT POC" that doesn't a priori make him intelligent, insightful, or right...any more than it does the professional lesbian race card shark Jasmyne Cannick.

Nor does Granderson claiming blacks were/are more shat upon than gays [of whatever color] demonstrate that his real agenda was "the lack of understanding among LGBT folks about what a civil rights movement really looks like."
 

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 21:37:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Personal Foul!

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 22:09:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

there's the Janis Joplin "Baby Bye Bye" video handy.....just saying

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 22:17:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

go ahead and ban me, Autumn

I was replying to Bedwell's comment about LZ Granderson being a moron. But I no longer wish to be a member of this community so I'm respecfully requesting that you delete my account.

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by: kukito @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:27:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I certainly hope that you weren't one of the people

who complained about the original PHB being too negative.  Why call someone a moron?  Seems to me that a select few people have taken the fun out of PHB.  Note the name PHB- Pam should run the blend as she sees fit.  I miss the old format and ratings system. Bring back the fun!

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by: exfundie @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:05:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I miss the ratings too

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by: joneke @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:09:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I prefered before the rating system, but could live with or without it

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:13:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually.......

I wasn't talking about the author of the article.  I was addressing the black community at large that continues to try to silence any effort of supporting LGBT of any color (i guess because, like you said, they don't think any non-POC LGBT "gets" what a civil rights movement is all about - therefore we should just stop trying and feel badly that we can't compare to the black experience - which further follows in their minds that that is a reason to not support us).  The author is an LGBT POC that his own racial community doesn't trust because they obviously don't trust anyone LGBT, even one of their own.  Sad.  But, instead of lashing out at LGBT people seeking civil rights and telling us we have no idea how to fight a civil rights battle, why not help us out and show us how it's done instead of telling us that since we obviously suck at it, we shouldn't do it.

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by: Narra @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 08:47:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Oppression Pissing Contest

Every group thinks they own the patent on oppression.

But the reality is, in the USA, if you're not white, male and heterosexual, chances are you've been oppressed.

The old canard that somehow only African Americans have suffered in this country is false. If you doubt this, just ask Judy and Dennis Shepard.  

People ask, "How have you guys managed to stay so long?" I tell them, "Don't sweat the small stuff." It's mostly small stuff.

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by: christopher di spirito @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 16:49:03 PM CDT

an article i highly recommend...

people link over to at Killing the Buddha to read: Gays Are the New N******s by Rev. Osagyefo Uhuru Sekou.

there is a lot of history in his article about Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and the Civil Rights movement.

with Rustin not only being Dr King's closest advisor and planning the 1963 March on Washington, he was also an openly gay black man. this had others put both he and Dr King under great pressure.

as an example from the article, Adam Clayton Powell, at the behest of the Democratic Party, went to Dr King to stop a planned march on the 1960 convention. to do it he threatened Dr King that he would release a story, that he made up, to the press that King and Rustin were having a sexual relations. there was no march and Ruskin resigned.

there is also quite a bit of information about Rustin and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

Sekou makes an excellent point that the history and experiences of the LGBTQ and African-American communities are not the same, but they are also not dissimilar. his last statement in the article is from Rustin:

Rustin places a moral challenge on those in the struggle: "Every indifference to prejudice is suicide because, if I don't fight all bigotry, bigotry itself will be strengthened and, sooner or later, it will return on me."

our two communities need to be coalescing not pointing out differences and fighting under any guise - religious, political, racial, et al - as the right has often used the old "divide and conquer" technique to turn things back to their advantage. one of the arguments against Prop 8 was that if they could do this to one group, they could do it to others.

I think that Sekou's article does a lot to refute Granderson. like i said, i highly recommend it.

here is the link: http://killingthebuddha.com/ma...

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by: jmichaeli @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 16:52:45 PM CDT

No coalescence is possible

for as long as the evangelical religious leaders continue to dominate the community. Does anyone realise this that the religious right, even the Black religious right, is incapable of compromising on religious issues..?

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:43:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't have much to add...

because I feel like this topic always comes back to a circular argument ("Minorities aren't included" "Well, no one recruited me to activism!"  etc, back and forth back and forth), but I couldn't help but bristle at this comment

If blacks are less accepting of gays than other racial groups -- and that is certainly debatable -- then the parade of gay people calling Obama a "disappointment" on television is counterproductive in gaining acceptance, to say the least.

I KNOW things are complicated and complex, but isn't reducing it down to "Well, if you are going to criticize the president then you deserve to not be accepted by black people" (which - unless I'm reading it wrong - is what it is implying) rather problematic in and of itself?

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by: Kringas @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 16:53:13 PM CDT

Divide and conquer

Someone needs to say that in the long run , it doesn't matter how oppression happens. It just needs to be stopped.

Did Emmit Till's mother and Matthew Shepard's mother cry differently when hearing about how their children were slaughtered?

But one point I have to ask - weren't some of the gays at Stonewall people of color? I thought that they were and if this is true then the fact that Granderson didn't mention this says volumes about the problems we need to combat in understanding the intersection between the black and gay communities.

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 16:53:45 PM CDT

Re: divide & conquer

Someone needs to say that in the long run, it doesn't matter how oppression happens. It just needs to be stopped.

I was trying to express a similar thought to yours with the line...

I don't believe the real point is about who suffers or suffered more, but instead about ending as much suffering as possible.

...but I believe you said it a lot better than I did.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:28:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

In a bear-derived metaphor...

...the struggle of African-Americans and the struggle of GLBT's compares well on a forest level, regardless of whether they feature precisely the same species of trees at precisely the same height.

As another commenter pointed out, both our groups are statistical minorities who have faced various forms of discrimination rooted in ignorance and hatred, and are fighting under the law to end them.

This should be at least enough commonality to get us to stop arguing over whose situation sucks more... and start working together to rip apart the damn vacuum.

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by: CubPaws2008 @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:01:28 PM CDT

Re: Ina bear-derived metaphor...

...As another commenter pointed out, both our groups are statistical minorities who have faced various forms of discrimination rooted in ignorance and hatred, and are fighting under the law to end them.

This should be at least enough commonality to get us to stop arguing over whose situation sucks more... and start working together to rip apart the damn vacuum.

Exactly.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:30:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There's No Winning With Him

If blacks are less accepting of gays than other racial groups -- and that is certainly debatable -- then the parade of gay people calling Obama a "disappointment" on television is counterproductive in gaining acceptance, to say the least. And the fact that the loudest critics are mostly white doesn't help matters either.

In other words, "We're not going to support you until you stop criticizing Obama for not supporting you."

What a Catch-22. Didn't Obama tell us to hold his feet to the fire? Would Granderson ask the same of health care reformers or anti-war protestors? If he's refusing to listen to us when we're speaking out, where is this support magically going to come from when we're silent? Oh that's right: nowhere. He's just telling us to shut up, without actually having the courage to say it in so few words.

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by: kimpira @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:15:48 PM CDT

gee..

i have always related to black folks as 'friends in the struggle' because they know what discrimination feels like, how it leaves emotional pain.  i'm not one that can 'pass' for straight, so i can relate to being the only one of something in a group.  i never once thought that might be an insult because of some technical reason of it not being exactly the same.  my neighbors are black.  could i have insulted them by assuming that they know the pain of rejection in the same way i do?  is it really a competition?  is this a case of me not being aware of white priviledge?  this really bums me out.  i swear, i just want to go live in the woods alone..

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by: swabby @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 17:42:21 PM CDT

This Drives Me Up the Wall!

I have never compared the struggle of African-Americans and gays.  To me, it is irrelevant--both groups have suffered, but I am sick of hearing the people who say that there is no similiarities or that gays have not suffered.

Let's see--
1) Gays have been executed by the state (and continue to be so in some countries)
2) Gays have been arrested, and it has been illegal until recently in many places; some even argue it should continue to be illegal
3) Gays can't get married
4) Gays have been fired and refused to be hired because of sexual orientation
5) Gays have been on the receiving end of hate--being beat up and killed just for being
6) Gays have been in programs to stop being gay, electro-shocked to stop being gay, etc.
7) Gays have been and are excluded from activities like church
8) Gays have lost housing
9) Gays have been hounded and tormented
10) Gays have been denied the ability serve their country or even voluteer work

I could go on and on about this, but these people think gays just popped out of nowhere and that it is a new situation.  BS--gays have struggled as much if not more than other groups.  We may not have the numbers or be as obvious in many cases, but we have been treated poorly internationally.  LZ is an ignorant fool.

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by: Johnnywhynot @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 18:40:08 PM CDT

who has said

that gays have not suffered?  Certainly LZ granderson hasn't said that.

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by: kevinerickson @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 18:47:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, he just assertred....

that LGBT suffering has not been as serious or long as that of blacks.

May I touch the hem of his schmata now or later?

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 21:40:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The LGBT Struggle is a LOT older than 40 years

The argument made by some people in the African-American community that the struggle for LGBT equality is only 40 years old or so, is completely fallacious.

The movement for recognizing the rights of LGBT people started in the mid-to-late-19th century in places like Germany, not much after people in the US were accepting the fact that blacks are full human beings and deserve to live freely as such. The early activists for LGBT rights (like Magnus Hirschfeld) might not have been well-known. But any half-informed person knows about the persecution faced by Oscar Wilde for being gay. And if you travel back in time to the medieval ages, it can be argued that Edward II of England lost his throne and his life mostly because he was gay.
And the horrors faced by gay people in Nazi Germany are well-documented, even if denied by the haters.

And before Stonewall, there was the Mattachine Society.

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by: troposphere @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 20:59:31 PM CDT

LZ Granderson

"everybody wants to sing the blues, nobody wants to live them."

uh.....2 words, and they ain't THANK YOU

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 21:46:03 PM CDT

and btw LZ Ganderson

you lived through NEITHER the major Civil Rights battles or pre Stonewall America...and I lived through BOTH.

so how would you know?

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 21:56:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I personally wouldn't use the phrase "Gay is the new Black"

but I won't be told who has or hasn't suffered "ENOUGH", certainly not from a TWINK.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 22:20:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's threads like these

That make me think there will never be any real alliances between straight black folks & non-black LGBTs.

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by: joneke @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 22:44:15 PM CDT

If I only spent time in threads, I might think the same thing.

On the third and fourth of July, I stood outside of the White House with signs about LBGT rights.  (It was organized by Enigmas from here.)  The two worst comments we got were from African-Americans, but many of the supportive comments were also from African-Americans and people of color.  (In fact, I would say most straight people who talked to us for any lenght of time were POC.)  While they can take my blogs from my cold dead hands, getting out and interacting with people is much more gratifying and give you a better idea of our future.

Also, I know here in DC, there are several ministers from many denominations and communities that have banded together in support of gay rights.  Finding these people rather than focusing on crazy people in the news is probably more helpful.    

The media loves their contrarians, so people like this sports journalist will get attention.  I mean, I'd never heard of this guy before this article.  I think with this publicity he just went from a D-list personality to a C-.  This whole story has left me unimpressed.

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by: TrumpetDC @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:22:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ages ago....

I used to belong to a speakers bureau at a university and I sometimes experienced the same thing speaking to classes that you did in front of the White House, TrumpetDC.

The most hostile AND the most supportive responses came from POC, specifically blacks. Sometimes in the same class...and they'd briefly snap at each other. The difference was, just as with Caucasians...it was usually a black female who was supportive and a black male that was hostile.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:46:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm well aware of range of thought in the black community

I see it in my own family. My discouragement comes from the frequently dismissive and/or condescending attitudes I feel these two groups exhibit toward each other whenever the topic of black homophobia comes up.

That being said, I was in a pessimistic mood when I wrote that last night. It's good to see some have had good experiences on this front.

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by: joneke @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 10:10:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

My memory

I only remember two instances of people speaking against our position. One was a black woman who was upset we were criticizing a black president. The other was a white man who just walked by quickly muttering 'Keep Don't Ask, Don't Tell'.

Hate comes from lots people and it behooves us all to try to change these minds.

Time to Stand! ProtestForHumanRighs.com

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by: Enigmas @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:00:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

When LGBTs win our equality

We'll remember who helped, and we'll REALLY remember who didn't.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:04:40 PM CDT

Do you mind expanding on this?

Do you think LZ Granderson is not helping?

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by: joneke @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:15:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I couldn't say if LZ Granderson is helping or not

I was stating the LGBTs I know...have LONG memories, and those who harm or refuse to help  us.....we have a "SPECIAL" space indeliably written on our memories.

Until I read this piece, I'd never heard of Mr. Granderson, I'm not a sports fan so someone on ESPN...might as well be from Mars.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:26:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Granderson is Misguided

As an black gay male, I have one foot in the gay community and one foot in the black community. Here is my take on Granderson's commentary. He is misguided. There are several black LGBT folk who are not happy with Obama. To address what others have said about discrimination within the gay community -- yes, there is some. Yes, some white male gay men do not welcome people of color into the fold (organizations). But we have to be careful of generalizations. However, I am one black guy who feels that Obama has let down our community. The rhetoric is great but I want actions, and I want actions now -- no tantrum, just a demand for equality, plain and simple.  

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by: txgayman @ Thu Jul 16, 2009 at 23:30:36 PM CDT

Quote of the year!!

I don't believe the real point is about who suffers or suffered more, but instead about ending as much suffering as possible.

Great piece Autumn.

Close the GayTM. Only give to candidates who have actually done something other than make promises - most are just pandering for our cash.

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by: JohnVisser @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 00:52:04 AM CDT

I had an idea for a video

Get adults to role play in the other person's place,(Black straight/White gay, or lesbian/trans woman, or White gay/ POC lesbian) then hire child actors to repeat the dialog on the video.
I think it might enforce the TOXIC ideas we are giving to kids.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 14:25:11 PM CDT

Wow

I didn't know my ethnic background was up for debate, or that it was all that important to what I post.

And the "little" comment again. Oh, Bedwell, you noticed I've been working out!

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by: Alex Blaze @ Sat Jul 18, 2009 at 15:32:21 PM CDT