APA Says Insufficient Evidence That Sexual Orientation Change Efforts Work

Bothered by this statement

What is their idea of a religiously and spiritually meaningful and rewarding life ? Many are fine without any religion.
QUOTE
"The task force recommended that licensed mental health care providers treating such clients help them "explore possible life paths that address the reality of their sexual orientation, reduce the stigma associated with homosexuality, respect the client's religious beliefs, and consider possibilities for a religiously and spiritually meaningful and rewarding life."  

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

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by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:16:26 AM CDT

No kidding

They fail to acknowledge (as does a large percentage of America) that it is indeed possible to live a full, happy, meaningful and complete life SANS RELIGION.

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by: Louise @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:18:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Of course they fail to acknowledge that...

because that would beg the question, "Why am I spending so much time dedicated to something I don't need to make me happy?" That would also lead to them wondering whether or not their god exists, which is an extremely difficult prospect. When I started questioning that, I was very uncomfortable and unhappy. But I got over it.

"Oh, I thought you meant a specific plan. With maps and stuff." -Buffy

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by: Aspasia @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 13:09:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with you and Louise

But I think that clause in their statement is subordinate to the bit about "respect[ing] the client's religious beliefs."  I don't think they're necessarily advocating religion for everybody.  At least I hope not.  Speaking purely from my own personal viewpoint, I think religious belief is incompatible with mental health.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:27:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Do licensed mental health providers

respect religious belief?  What about astrology ? Satanic ritual? Tarot cards?  Speaking in tongues.  I thought mental health was based on scientific data and empirical scientific evidence.

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

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by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 14:59:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How many invisible cubs can dance on the head of a pin?

I don't know if religion as such makes someone automatically insane.  As an agnostic, my whole objection to religious dogmatism is based on an absence of empirical evidence - and I have no more evidence of the nonexistence of a God than I do of the existence of a God.  So, for all I know, maybe there IS an invisible friend in the sky.

But I highly doubt that this invisible friend - if s/he's the wonderful, magnanimous, all-benevolent entity that religious folks like to claim when they're making their sale - would create a bunch of beings that s/he would hate, just so s/he could have someone to condemn to eternal suffering.  This makes God/dess sound like a giant cosmic two-year-old, greater than us only quantitatively and not qualitatively.

So while there might be differing viewpoints on this board as to religion itself, I think we CAN all agree that hateful use of religion - i.e. bald assertions about the supposed will of an invisible friend who may or may not exist, used to claim a "right" to make other people's lives a living hell - is categorically insane.

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by: CubPaws2008 @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 15:46:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Caveat

This only applies in the case of adults. Those under the age of 13 are still subject to it as ethical and potentially useful.

this is because a significant number of gay, lesbian, or bisexual kids can be (and many are) classified as having Gender Identity Disorder In Children (which is a different classification from that for adults with different criteria).

And reparative treatment for the kids is still acceptable (and practiced, notably in the northeast).

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:30:49 AM CDT

Any word of a control group

to test the reversal thoery- ie, efforts to change heteros, via PRO-gay therapy?

Of course not; that would presuppose that being gay is fine!

But here's the thing: any scientific study worth its onions (imo) has to have a control group of the opposite side. Then  there is information available to prove/ suggest a conclusion to one side or the other.

Too many years out of college and away from statistical analysis to get any deeper into this and I look forward to the thoughts of those more knowledgeable/ currently in the fields...

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by: Louise @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 07:23:55 AM CDT

well, seriously

They did have a control group.

This is not merely a restating of the previous position paper. A few years back, they very quietly announced that they were going to do a serious study on the idea of it, because they were challenged on the grounds that there was no study done previously by our opponents (such as Narth, et al).

This was led by a rather specific scientist (who's work was misused by Exodus) who really wanted to see if it was possible or not.

white paper isn't out yet I don't think on it, but its a pretty solid study that can indeed be used to establish the harmful nature of such things.

For adults, though.  Kids are still screwed.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 08:27:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

So what about anti-transgender reparative therapy?

My family keeps insisting I go to therapy that would un-trans me. I reply that it doesn't work, it's pseudoscientific snake oil, and it's potentially very harmful or even deadly. Isn't there any scientific evidence on this one way or the other?  

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

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by: Hypatia @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:28:38 AM CDT

I vehemently object to FOF's use of the word

Pathology.  Isn't it pathological to worship a myth and spend inordinate amounts of time trying to convice others of your delusion?

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. - The U.S. Constitution Article IV.Section. 2. Clause 1

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by: Mbarber @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 09:46:49 AM CDT

Intellectual dishonesty

It never ceases to amaze me how people can in one breath espouse the unshakable belief in an omnipotent, omniscient being which keeps personal tabs on all 6,774,705,000 of us every second of the day, and then in the next breath declare that the existence of intelligent life on other planets is impossible.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 14:13:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

it always amazes me that the fundies, with their supposed emphasis on the afterlife,

are so pathologically obsessed with the physical bodies of this world.  how hypocritical is this?

We are deeply concerned about the hearts and souls of those who identify themselves as gay, lesbian, bisexual or "transgendered."  

hearts and souls don't have genitalia.  in fact, who we are as human beings and as empathetic individuals has nothing to do with what we have between our legs.  but they don't see it like that--sometimes i imagine a fundie-theocrat's version of heaven is just a bunch of penises and vaginas floating around on clouds.    

and how dare they purport to know what "His designs and standards for sexuality" are, when what they are seeking is an enforcement of social gender roles created by MAN.  that's blasphemous, and a violation of the commandment regarding taking the lord's name in vain.  perverting the word of god to assert one's own desires upon a population and to frighten them into conformity is about as vile a thing that anyone can do to one's own maker.        

The gays stole my lunch money

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by: matt in mpls @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 10:50:08 AM CDT

That always gets me

The hubris employed by these fundies. Whether a Christian sees their god as some fluffy father-figure who loves kittens and puppies and rainbows or as a Mad-Daddy rampaging warrior god (and both portrayals are shown in the Christian Bible), the audacity in "knowing" believers display is amazing. And again, this brings up what us skeptics always point out as an inconsistency: if god is perfect, how can he create imperfection? If god is omniscient, how did he not know people like us would be created? If god is omnipotent, why not eliminate us all with the blink of an eye and prevent our kind from ever being created again?

Obviously if "he" actually exists and is as all-knowing, all-powerful and perfect as they describe him, then all of us "non-normative" types must be part of his Grand Design. So, get over it folks!

"Oh, I thought you meant a specific plan. With maps and stuff." -Buffy

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by: Aspasia @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 13:21:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Speaking from experience

As someone who's live has been deeply and negatively touched by an ex-gay ministry, I cannot tell you how relieved and grateful I am to the APA for having conducted this study and released this information.

What FOF and ex-gay ministries will not tell you is the incredible damage they do to the individuals who go through those programs.   They talk about "family" yet they do incredible damage to many families.   They tell individuals that go to their meetings that their "chosen" sexuality has to do with something that didn't go right in their childhood, and the individual gains an unhealthy attitude towards his/her family and his or her self.  

Despite how many in the Christian Religion have treated me about my being gay, I still believe in Jesus Christ.  I do not believe that Jesus would approve of what these ministries do.  I also do not thing He would endorse the self hatred that these ministries promote, and He certainly would not approve of them doing it in His Name.  

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by: PBearBudMN @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 10:50:15 AM CDT

If normal = Perkins, Dobson, Petey, and Bam Bam

That wouldn't be a club I'd be rushing to join.

If any of them have been laid in the past 20 years, it must have involved massive amount of booze and date rape drugs.....ugh!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 11:26:59 AM CDT

maybe this would be a good strategy

Compose images of Nazi Ratzinger, Petey, Perkins, Bam Bam, Dobson, Phelps, Concerned Women of America...label them "the UNF*CKABLES, and do you really want them controlling YOUR bedrooms?"

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 11:31:51 AM CDT

Heh.

That reminds me of a George Carlin bit....   Not directly germane to this posting, but to the xtians in general.

"Why are those against abortion, people you wouldn't want to f*&k in the first place?"

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by: sfalken @ Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 15:25:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hmm.

I'm more than a little disappointed that they made this admittedly wonderful decision for sexual orientation, but at the same time they have Mister Aversion Therapy, Ken Fucker (I mean Zucker), the world's number-one mindfucker of transgender children, the guy who thinks it's desirable to try to "turn" innocent little trans girls and boys into depressed, repressed "normal" gay and lesbian kids, on the workgroup for gender and sexuality disorders for DSM-V.

Until Zucker is OUT, and until "gender identity disorder" is OUT of the DSM, I'm not pleased.

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by: Kittyburger @ Fri Aug 07, 2009 at 05:36:54 AM CDT