Trans Women Are Ghastly Parodies? Intersexuals Are Not?

Wow.

Germaine Greer is a ghastly parody of a feminist.

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by: kimpira @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 16:26:59 PM CDT

...among other things.

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 16:38:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yup.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 16:42:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Get thee to Hell!

Even the Illinois Family Institute allows for intersexuals in a way they don't allow for transsexuals. Note this disclaimer in their piece on Chas Bono:

*This article is referring to "sex reassignment" surgery for individuals who do not have any medical disorders of sex development (DSDs), also known as intersex conditions.

Meaning, IFI, that you clowns have just aknowledged that your deity does indeed make mistakes.

Take two copies of Dogma and pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez don't call me in the morning or ever!

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 16:41:35 PM CDT

oh no, no mistake

god makes intersexed people on purpose so that ifi people have the opportunity to be condescendingly gracious to some "poor souls".

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 19:59:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

An alternative theory:

...is that there is no mythical deity who created the world out of a puff of magic, and intersex individuals are simply a predictable result of nature, which, since it isn't "designed" by an all-powerful sky wizard, is extremely complex and not black-and-white like a children's fairy tale.

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by: Eshto @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 20:13:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How dare thee spout reality!?!?!??! :)

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 08:09:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Parody"

I have to comment regarding the use of this term because it has personal significance.

I have a cousin who is a natal female. Kathy is 6'-5" and has a very athletic build. She is also very beautiful. Her face reminds me of Grace Kelly.

She is straight. But, she's always been a tomboy. We used to play cowboys as children and she always had to be the sheriff. She now works in law enforcement.

Many years ago, I was present when Kathy's mother was nagging her for not wearing makeup to a family wedding. Her mother asked her, "Why don't you at least put on some lipstick and eyeliner?"

Kathy replied, "Because it makes me look like a parody!"

I'll never forget that. So, Greer's ugly words really hit home for me. I immediately thought of my beautiful cousin Kathy who has been dealing with this crap her entire life.

There are many women who don't conform to society's ideal feminine appearance. They never will.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 17:01:54 PM CDT

And according to Raymond/Daly/Morgan/Bindel/Greer-oid dogma...

transsexuals are to blame for that abusive standard being shoved down Kathy's throat.

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 08:11:56 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The standards existed before Trans were common

and they are anti-feminist, anti women....the Donna Reed or June Cleaver stereotype of a woman.

And, that type of misogynistic imagery exists in the LGBT community as well, so we ought not be in a hurry to self congratulate

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:30:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

if it turns out you have Klinefeter's

do not be too public about it as there are a lot of negative connotations completely related to being trans or intersexed.

have you checked into the possibility of incomplete testicular feminization aka androgen insensitivity syndrome? (sorry, I can't recall if you have said you were born phenotypically male or intersexed and since, as far as I am concerned, you present yourself as female therefor you are female so I just haven't thought about it)

Even if you are, genotypically, XY and your baseline phenotype was male with no physiological signs of anything that would make you trans/intersex (or at least nothing we know how to detect now), you are female.  If there's one thing I do remember form my days as a gene jockey, it's that few traits are really determined from a simple single allele.  Additionally, many traits can be impacted significantly by genetic determinants of which we are currently unaware, environmental factors (especially those in utero) and any combination of these factors.  Our problem is we try to simplify things to the lowest common denominator to explain them to ourselves.  Unfortunately, in doing so, we try to put things in to a neat little box even though they don't fit and that leads to people feeling like or being treated like freaks.  

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by: ol cranky @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 17:03:55 PM CDT

What the hell happened to Germaine Greer?

What a horrible thing to say.

BTW, as someone who doesn't ovulate or menstruate (anymore) I can safely say I don't physically outperform people who do.

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by: Cheryl @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 17:04:41 PM CDT

Greer has been nasty for at least two decades. and a liar

Her snottiness about Princess Di landed her in some very hot water.

This is worth seeing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 21:38:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What the hell happened to Germaine Greer?

She's been passed by; by other feminists, by a new generation of women, AND men, by society. Rendered irrelevant. Become a hypocrite.

For example, she recently said that one cannot be a feminist if one is thin. That basically a feminist has to be "fat bottomed". Nevermind that in her youth, she was skinny too. But now that she is no longer skinny, anyone that is skinny cannot be a feminist.

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by: rfloh @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 02:28:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just Be.

Why can't we just be?
What is the point of this insane need to PROVE everything is black and white?
We know that in all of time through all of nature and the universe that it is not. Diversity and variance are what makes life so freaking amazing. But when it comes to being who we are mankind has enforce such rigid definitions for men and women. Humanity still has so much growing up to do.

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by: NikkiDreams @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 17:24:17 PM CDT

A powerful, honest piece

Thanks for your powerful, honest post Autumn. It's a drag, pun intended, that any of us ever feel a need for external validation of who we are. It would be a wonderful world if transgender, intersex and other gender variant people were simply treated equally and honored for their beautiful, unique gifts as humans!

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by: zythyra @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 17:26:21 PM CDT

Yeah. I had to write it from that angle.

Germaine Greer is a feminist I should be ignoring, but I found a trace of my own internalized transphobia because of my recent testing. I made a comment to the healthcare provider -- the one that suggested the genetic testing -- that it really wouldn't change anything for me to be determined to have an intersex condition, other than perhaps the secondary health impacts of having the genetic abnormality.

The reality is though that it would change others perception of me if I did turn out to be intersexed. And, perceptions have real consequences.

It's a painful thing to find out that I still have trace amounts of internalized transphobia to deal with. But, at least by seeing and naming it, I can deal with it. And publicly talking about it...well, that's part of my mission here at PHB: Explaining T to LGB.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 18:24:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Of course there are still traces of internalized stuff...

sexism, transpohbia, racism, homophobia -- of course we still all have traces of those things.  Look at our culture!!!  I think you're right:  naming it helps.  Feeling shame about it doesn't.  You are who you are and even if your test comes back "positive" I don't think you can be sure that the condition is what "made you" trans.  Just food for thought...

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by: Repeal8 @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 19:04:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hey...

...I've thought of myself as fearlessly trans. I live a wide open life that I'm pretty proud of.

But that said, I think my shame comes in knowing I significant traces of internalized transphobia within me where I thought I'd fairly completely dealt with that previously. The shame comes from relaizing that my societal status may improve some if I were to be discovered to be intersexed, and that I'd want that "upgrade" -- as small as an "upgrade" as it might be.

It's the realization that this is a sort of an equivilent to being an African-American who suddenly realizes that he or she is a light skinned African-American. On some level, I still see myself as a lesser being than the cissexual people in our broader society, and internally I see being intersexual as being "better" -- closer to female norm in broader society than being a transsexual female.

Passing privilege already gives me something I didn't have when I started my transition. Gaining female privilege means I also gained the appearance of straight privilege. Losing weight, I found, gave me attractive privilege. If I were to have the explanation of a genetic abnormality to explain my gender variance, then ... another privilege?  

That I would want that perceived additional privilege bothers me -- that's actually what I feel somewhat ashamed about.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 19:36:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

A big difference

Between You and I.
I knew I was female from the moment I could connect thoughts together.
I played the game for a while, then transitioned it was the only natural thing to do.
There is no passing privilege just social integrations into female society.

The difference is I am classic TS not trans-anything, and after transition just another member of the female half of society.

...I've thought of myself as fearlessly trans. I live a

wide open life that I'm pretty proud of.

But that said, I think my shame comes in knowing I significant traces of internalized transphobia within me where I thought I'd fairly completely dealt with that previously. The shame comes from relaizing that my societal status may improve some if I were to be discovered to be intersexed, and that I'd want that "upgrade" -- as small as an "upgrade" as it might be.

Your internalized transphobia (as you call it) may be due to other issues I have never known anybody who transitioned who felt that way. I do know at least one person who was deeply involved in the gay community who transitioned and admitted it was a mistake for sexual reasons. This person was not happy with their sex role as a woman, she was more happy with her sex role as a transwoman with intact male organs.

You might want to seriously consider the possibility that transition is not for you if you have ANY internalized self loathing. (I read transphobia as self loathing)

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by: LiZ @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 20:26:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

LiZ, please stop telling me what you think about my transition.

Seriously, I've of the current thought in trans community that there is no right way to be trans; there is no right way to transition.

To imply that there is only a limited set of naratives to transitioning is to condescend, LiZ, and to deny the rich diversity of human experience.

My experience in life has been to live honestly as I can, and question and contemplate most everything. I take after my Mom in this, who even lived in a Orthodox Christian monestary as a Nun for a time -- in a very, very contemplative order.

Seriously, please don't profer your opinion about my life experiences anymore. I honestly don't value your opinions on my transition in the slightest, and will likely not take any advice you may offer. Your opinions regarding my transition and the public contemplation of my life experiences are simply not wanted -- from your comments at The Blend, I tend to believe you think to rigidly about sex and gender.

So please profer me no more your unsolicited advice. If I wanted your advice, I'd ask for it; but I don't, and I won't.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 21:40:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sure.

I do have a lot of experience in that field.
4 decades
That is fine with me.

It's always healthy to question.
I'm done here.

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by: LiZ @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 22:06:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Look, it's disingenuous

to talk about your transition in your op-ed piece (if that's what these posts are) and then criticize people who comment on that topic.  It's not Liz's fault you have to constantly look for societal acceptance and state that you have "internalized transphobia", whatever that is.  

Look, transition isn't "all that".  There are sooo many things that are more difficult to overcome and deal with than transexualism.  I mean, after one transitions and moves on, who really cares?  It's somewhat interesting to the general public, but only for a moment.  They couldn't care less about your history (is it history for you?).  They only care about the now.

For God's sake get over it.  Transition already.
   

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by: dbagal @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 04:20:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Perhaps

in the nearly 4 decades since I transitioned and left my past behind I maybe out of touch with how much harder it is in the present day to transition with the help from the GLBT and all those special laws.  

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by: LiZ @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 07:03:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well.

I'm always surprised, dbagal, when I'm told by other trans people what things I should be doing to live my life. I'm trying to figure out why trans folk like you feel it's their right to define my life for me. Certainly I don't try to define how you should be living your life, sir.

Btw, I see transitioning as seeming to be a process. On the social side of things, my transition is long done. Even though I finished socially transitioning years ago, the process of my life is a trans experience that I publicly share. I life an outwardly contemplative life to help explain T to folk who don't understand T-experience. The reality is that many trans people I know identify themselves as intersexed because they believe it's better than being identified just as a trans person. From the outside looking in, these folk perceive that presenting themeselves as intersexed is better than presenting themselves as transsexuls -- sick in the head people who many believe need some kind of reparative therapy to fix their delutions of being cross-gendered.

I was surprised to discover these wish-I-were-intersexed feelings were in me too, so I wrote about these feelings. If you don't like my writing, well...as we used to say in the Navy:

Move along smartly.

No one is keeping you here, or forcing you to read what I write.

(Btw, I received a comment from Kate Bornstein that she thought this was a good piece. I value her opinion more than someone like you, who I really don't know much about.)

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 12:07:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sir? That's not very nice at all.

Certainly I don't try to define how you should be living your life, sir.

If anyone else used the wrong pronouns on purpose, you'd tongue lash 'em and boot 'em for violating TOS. Just sayin'. The poster talks in her very last post of living "in the real world as the woman I am."

No one is keeping you here, or forcing you to read what I write.

Well yeah, but...kick her on the way out the door?

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by: Pollyanna @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 13:29:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Autumn

Where the Hell
do you get off using the wrong pronoun on this person.

YOU OF ALL PEOPLE who are so quick to call someone out for using the wrong pronoun.

You have some serious apologizing to do.

LiZ

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by: LiZ @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 13:57:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My most sincere apologies, dbagal...

...I misread your comment here when you identified as a transsexual Dad, and read "transman." I should have referred to you as "ma'am," and would have if I hadn't misread your identification by misinterpreting what you meant in that comment header.

It is always wrong to refer to someone by the wrong gender pronouns, and I definitely made a huge blunder by referring to you by the wrong gender identification -- even when it was by honest mistake.

Again, my most sincere apologies, dbagal.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 17:24:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

well, now, how..

... can one be a classic transsexual, and not be trans anything.

Sorta asinine to use that phrasing, when you think about it. I mean, really, being transsexual is trans something, so if you aren't trans anything wouldn't that be just sexual?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 23:35:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well, I look hot. ;-)

I'm just not functionally sexy. :P

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 23:47:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Get over Greer, Autumn

She wrote in a specfic time and milieu about a phenomena largely created by the big gender clinics and their criteria for a trans woman to be permitted to go for surgery. In an age of social revolution for women, the clinics were turning out Jume Cleavers, Donna Reeds and Timmy's Mother from Lassie.
There was a credible basis for concern, though both she and Dr Raymond certainly went not only over board with it but didn't direct their ire where it belonged: at the men who, playing god, created women in the likeness of their own fantasies and misogyny.

The breakdown of the clinic system ended the "barbie doll" conservative woman stream coming out of operating room doors.

Greer, however, acknowledges neither change nor error. She is the inadequate one; she is the imposter, not you, provided you remain genuine and true to self. Greer is incapable of that.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 18:31:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks. :)

Seriously, I never doubt, Maura, that you get it.

In the same "getting it" vein, I get Greer is clueless of how much the standards have changed for transition -- changed to reflect the realities of trans experiences -- and really is a feminist that's behind the times in large part because she's too stove-piped in her thinking and narrow in her viewpoint. And as such, she should be ignored.

And hey, on a personal note, if I've seemed short with you in the past week, I'm sorry. I read something where I sounded like I was saying I thought you were questioning my gender when I know you don't question it; when I meant to talk about the legal standards you were explaining.

Well, I have, like Pam, been hitting my own health walls in the past week. Basically, I was really fatigued last week, so I'm sorry I wasn't as clear-headed and rational as I would have liked to have sounded. Please forgive me for sounding like a jerk to you. Honestly, it was unitentional.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 19:42:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I figured that, Autumn

You cannot run at flank indefinitely, you know that :)

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 20:15:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

She is no feminist at all Autumn

when she can attack a woman athlete in the fashion that she does.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 21:57:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So Greer goes anti-feminist!

Just the latest bit of nastiness from the queen of nastiness. The woman who has a slam for everyone, The matron of mean, the cruella of crones, The narcissistic nihilist, everyone else is doomed but not her.

Born woman with ovaries and a uterus is no longer enough; now they have to be currently working, which I doubt those of the Granny of Grinchiness are.

Anti-trans, anti-butch, anti-everthing except herself anyomre, it seems. If ex-professor Greer has cats, they need to be removed

Can you tell that we've met?

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 17:39:24 PM CDT

That horrible person is still around?

I thought Greer had lost any feminist cred a long time ago.  Real feminists do not throw sisters under the bus like that. I don't read her books at all and the excerpt I just read from google makes me think that The Whole Woman should have a warning on it as a hate book.    

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by: rosicrucian @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 17:57:55 PM CDT

I have a question for you Autumn?

Why do you need a disorder to validate yourself?

If you made the leap and are a woman you don't need any of this stuff.

To go seeking for some disorder after the fact is to go looking for a crutch to prop your identity up on.

If you are really a woman you know it, in California or the VA for that matter XXY won't buy anything you don't already have.

California regards a person's birth sex to be based on visual inspection by the doctor.

The VA won't fund your sex reassignment just because you entered the armed forces with a preexisting condition (Klienfelders syndrome)

In your day to day life what good is this going to do for you????

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by: LiZ @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 18:20:18 PM CDT

Klinefelter Syndrome has more than gender identity related issues.

Just from a medical perspective, XXY's have an increased risk for:

• autoimmune disorders, including diabetes and thyroiditis
• hypothyroidism
• breast cancer
• osteoporosis
• leg ulcers
• depression
• dental problems

With regards to sexuality, XXY folk have a higher incidence of:

• low sex drive
• Infertility

Klinefelter Syndrome has secondary health issues related to the condition that one should be aware of; to be monitored for.

And no, I don't need to be intersexed to validate my identity. I will consider myself transgender no matter what; I see transgender as a sociopolitical identification regarding the civil rights of all gender variant peoples.

But, I wouldn't be honest though if I said it wouldn't make a difference in my life if I turn out to be genetically intersexual instead of being transsexual. Intersexuality and transsexuality are perceived as separate conditions by broader society, and that perception would have consequences. My take on this is that  being perceived as an intersexual is slightly more acceptable in broader society than being perceived as a transsexual.  

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 19:03:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

One comment

" I shouldn't care what non-fundies think -- people such as columnist Germaine Greer -- yet I find I do care what she thinks. "

Well, actually, you shouldn't care what fundies think -- but you should care what non-fundies think.

Non fundies are a hell of a lot bigger a population than the fundies. THe fundies are, ultimately, only of value as an example of how not to be.

In the arena of public opinion, the non fundies count for a lot more.

Its a challenge they are winning, as well, because they understand that non-fundies far better than we do.  They know the non-fundies count for more.

So if anything, you should listen more to the Germaine Greer's (despite their Raymondesque flashbacks) than you should the Peter's.

Because to a great extent, the Peter's and the rest get their value from the attention given them by their opponents.

Which is more or less a rule learned in sociology 202.

:D

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 18:23:40 PM CDT

At least she's consistent.

Greer has been blatantly transphobic before the term was invented:

Wikipedia Bio:

Other controversial points in this book include Germaine Greer's opposition to accepting trans-sexuals as women:[4]

   Governments that consist of very few women have hurried to recognize as women men who believe that they are women and have had themselves castrated to prove it, because they see women not as another sex but as a non-sex. No so-called sex-change has ever begged for a uterus-and ovaries transplant; if uterus-and-ovaries transplants were made mandatory for wannabe women they would disappear overnight. The insistence that man-made women be accepted as women is the institutional expression of the mistaken conviction that women are defective males.

... and just to give us some idea what she's like in her activism:

n 1989, Greer was appointed as a special lecturer and fellow at Newnham College, Cambridge, but resigned after attracting negative publicity in 1996 for her actions regarding Dr. Rachael Padman, a transsexual colleague. Greer unsuccessfully opposed Padman's election to a fellowship, on the grounds that Padman had been born male, and Newnham was a women's college.

In short, she's just a generally unpleasant person - especially if you happen to be trans.

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by: MichelleS @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 18:59:55 PM CDT

I love how she calls us "so-called sex-change"s.

Considering that the only people who call us that are transphobes.

And considering that MANY transsexual women - myself included among these - would move mountains to be able to give birth.

I said this on Twitter earlier, but it bears repeating:

Maybe I started with a low testosterone count and a brain pre-set to see myself as female, but who cares!? I'm a fucking tranny & fuck 'em if they don't like it!!!

<3

Katie

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by: Kittyburger @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 19:08:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Katie, feminists don't like Greer

because she isn't so much a feminist as a woman who hides behind other women to protect herself from her own hatreds of all things in all times from coming back upon her.

The young woman from South Africa is not pretty enough for Greer so she must not be a woman, besides, women cannot win at games.....sound like a feminist to you?

Nope.

We don't like her either, exceot perchance the old "a whiff of testeosterone gives me hives" crowd.

Greer arrogates the right to define who is and who is not a woman to herself, who is good, who is worthwhile to her own hands.

Sound like a woman to you, or is the behaviour of someone imitating an alpha male?

Mary Daly came to a late awakening and understanding of the outcome of Lesbian Separatism of the form that Greer espouses. In her book Amazon Grace, Daly notes that such purism and separatism has produced women who duplicate the worst of the patriarchy.

Behold Germaine Greer, and see Daly's theory validated.

You are a woman, Katie; Greer is but a caricature of the patriarchy she claims to deplore.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 19:20:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Greer wants to destroy the patriarchy

And replace it with a system where she and those like her, such as Fay Weldon, are in power.

She isn't so much concerned about women's rights, equality for women and empowering women so that women can live the lives they want to, but simply for obtaining the power to enforce her values on other women.

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by: rfloh @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 02:45:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Her credentials make me wonder...

why she's not on staff at Northwestern.

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 21:15:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ouch.

Very nice Man Who Would Be Queen reference, Kat.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 21:45:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

She's a girl.

Northwestern is a boy's club.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 23:31:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What an ignorant moron

No so-called sex-change has ever begged for a uterus-and ovaries transplant

Oh really Ms. Greer? Then I must be imagining those transwomen on my board trueselves who are agonized about not being able to have children. Who wonder if its even worth living since they can't. And who pin their hopes on fantasy medical breakthroughs like nanotechnology or genetic tinkering.

Here's a message to Ms Greer, a lot of them don't exist anymore because hatemongers like her drove them to suicide. There is a lot of blood on the hands of Ms. Greer, Ms. Raymond, Ms. Vogel, and their ilk.

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by: kathygnome @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 07:04:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am intersex and have transitioned...

I was born intersex and I transitioned.  I don't think it changes a whole lot.  

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by: tfeminist @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 19:29:25 PM CDT

Who have never been allowed?

"For those of us who have never been allowed to doubt that we were female, the process seems bizarre. We don't know if we think like women or not."

Poor dear - I hereby give you permission to doubt that you may be a man or a woman. You've certainly had as least s much permission to doubt you gender identity as any trans or intersex person. Indeed - as you are cisexual and comport with societies expectations - you've had a great deal more permission to presume your gender identity without question.

"We don't know if we think like women or not. We just think."

Um...of course you idjit? Gender identity isn't thinking like a woman or a man - it's one identity as a woman or man. If a woman identifies as straight - we don't automatically conflate that with her saying that she thinks like a straight person or that there is an objectively provable way straight people think.

"People who don't ovulate or menstruate will probably always physically outperform people who do."

"Prevalence:
Studies reveal exercise induced amenorrhea in 1 to 44% of athletes. Most frequently seen in ballet dancers and long distance runners. Up to 44% of ballet dancers have been found to be amenorrheic."

http://www.ivf.com/amenath.html

"who seem to us to be some kind of ghastly parody, though it isn't polite to say so."

Most would consider your words a ghastly parody of both politeness and intellectual honesty. Associating your deeds with any form of politeness or even fairness may not is more akin to smearing lipstick on a pig than eyeshadow; though it's certainly a delusion in either case.

---

by: Kathleen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 20:01:44 PM CDT

As others have said,

  I don't have to justify who I am to anyone.  I am the woman I was born as with the wrong parts. Finished, Done, Over and out.

 As Autumn points out in her comment, medical reasons would be the only reason to share such information with her doctors.  As for the rest, screw it.

 The family I have now including my future husband's family don't give a damn about my past as it should be.  We are in LOVE and that is all that truly matters.  

 The religious right nut cases have no idea and don't care to even understand what the hell people like me go through in our lives.  They don't give one iota to what doctors say.  They believe they must be hateful to those who are different in order to belong to their christianity club.  What a pathetic way to go through life, worried about who others fall in LOVE with, how they find true happiness, what their fetishes might include and what sexual positions they engage in.  How fucking sad.

 And on a personal note as well.  My future husband doesn't want to even hear much about my struggle, he just cares that I am happy now and we can enjoy the rest of our lives sharing the LOVE we have for each other.  But don't get me wrong, I am still the avid LGBT rights fighter I have always been.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 20:02:23 PM CDT

i guess i just don't see the internalized transphobia in you.

what you describe doesn't sound like internalized transphobia to me.  rather, it sounds like really wanting people to stop treating you in ways that are materially and spiritually harmful to you.  that's not transphobia, that's rational behavior.  

what a powerful piece Autumn, thank you.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

---

by: Lurleen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 20:09:55 PM CDT

Another writer ...

... that rationalizes the world around him on the base of her beliefs, because ... who needs empiricism when you can produce a clever sounding piece of crap.

I've never understood why people listen to "intellectuals" and "modern philosophers" who make up analysis out of thin air. I once watched a philosophical talk on German public TV where they argued that the scientist don't understand the true nature. And they get paid for that through universities, book contracts and media appearances.

From Wikipedia:

"I know that the only people who are supposed to like looking at pictures of boys are a subgroup of gay men," she wrote in London's Daily Telegraph.

And from Salon.com:

Greer can be flabbergastingly categorical, especially when she's wrong, whether she's attributing homosexuality to "the inability of the person to adapt to his given sex role" or noting that ovaries and wombs almost always "go wrong."

If you wanted to collect all her dumb quotes, you would need a lot of time.

---

by: Chris From Old Europe @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 21:07:30 PM CDT

the only people?

"Female Sex Offenders- Sexual assault of children by females. 75% of sexual predators are male and 25% are female."

http://www.canadiancrc.com/Fem...

That's a long way from only - one of the news agregator sites seems to run a teacher/young male student coupling story at least once a day. Here's the last two days or so listed:

"Teacher allegedly paid student after sex
Victim's mother says teen got up to $1,500."
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_...

"Cops: Teacher Sent Student Love E-Mail
Police Say Woman Admitted To Sexual Relationship With Teen"
http://www.clickorlando.com/ne...

Though - let's not limit this to one orientation. As real scientists say - pedophilia is not about orientation.

"A PUBLIC school trumpet mistress faces jail after admitting a lesbian fling with a 15-year-old pupil."
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/ho...

That took all of 20 seconds to find a few stories and stats. I'm sure a tenured academic with the resources of a major university and research assistants could do it in a few seconds in most cases. For others - decades seem to short a time.

---

by: Kathleen @ Sun Aug 23, 2009 at 21:46:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just in the interest of accuracy...

If you had used that 20 seconds to look up the part of the quote that Chris left off, or otherwise had read about any of the uproar around the publication of Greer's book, Beautiful Boy, you would not have had to waste time refuting a falsehood.

"I know that the only people who are supposed to like looking at pictures of boys are a subgroup of gay men. Well, I'd like to reclaim for women the right to appreciate the short-lived beauty of boys, real boys, not simpering 30-year-olds with shaved chests."

Andrew Denton: There are those who say - have already said in print - that what you're doing is creepy. It's no different to an old man staring at a young girl and lusting after them.

Germaine Greer: (CHUCKLES) Well, you can't stop the old man staring at the young girl and lusting. What are you going to do - tell old men that they must be blindfold or something? I don't think that's particularly creepy as long as they understand that they're not...they have no right to lay hands on that person. But you can't stop them. How could you? I mean, the luminous figure of a beautiful young girl walking down the street and the old men sitting on the wall, leaning on their sticks. What are you going to say? "Look the other way, you dreadful old bastards"? What are you going to say? It's part of the joy of life is admiring the beauty of things that are beautiful. What is important to me about the Boy is that once upon a time his beauty was understood and celebrated by people of both sexes. A boy was allowed to dress in very bright colours, he was allowed to show himself off in the street, he dyed his hair, he wore make-up, he wore a little cap tipped over his eye with a big feather in, he wore tight pants and cropped jackets and so on. And the girls looked down from behind their jalousie and talked about the best-looking boys. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoug...

---

by: Pollyanna @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 00:11:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Or that

She put an undressed 16 year old on the cover of her book without his permission & he was creeped out by it?

Not quite so sure it matters which adult is sexualizing the child - especially if the objectified one finds it creepy. But I shouldn't be surprised you find such intrusivness acceptible.

---

by: Kathleen @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:04:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry.

I sometimes forget that accuracy isn't valued very much by some people. Even when they're arguing the exact opposite of what someone actually said.
So...
You changed the subject.
Then you attributed a point of view to me I've never expressed or implied.
You are either a very lazy thinker, or you don't know how to interact unless you make sh*t up. Either way...see 'ya.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 14:41:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nothing made up here

I'm not Germaine's toy, says cover boy

Australian feminist writer Germaine Greer has been accused of exploitation by the former actor whose photo appears on the cover of her controversial new book The Boy.

Bjorn Andresen says Greer did not seek his permission to use his photo on her book, which is a series of images of adolescent boys and which the 64-year-old academic has admitted might have critics labelling her a pedophile.
............

"I had no idea of this and I do not approve of it at all," Andresen, now 45, said in London. "I would have imagined someone would have had the decency to ask me about it - although, if they had, I most definitely would not have given my permission.

"I have a feeling of being utilised that is close to distasteful."
.......................

"I had no idea of this and I do not approve of it at all,"
....................
He is disturbed by the nature of Greer's book, which the author says is a celebration of the "evanescent loveliness of boys".

"Adult love for adolescents is something I am against in principle," Andresen told Britain's The Guardian newspaper.

"Emotionally perhaps, and intellectually I am disturbed by it, because I have some insight into what this kind of love is about."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles...

---

by: Kathleen @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 21:02:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kathleen, put down your shovel and climb out of that hole.

Let's review:

Chris posted part of a quote of Greer saying she thought only certain gay men were supposed to enjoy looking at pictures of boys.

You seemed to believe that what Greer was saying was that only gay men were child molesters, because to refute it you threw up some links to popular press articles about some instances (I'll take your word they were proven) of females who have had sex with....well, your examples were all of teenagers even though your primary assertion in your first sentence had to do with sexual assaults on children. Funny, I didn't even catch that on first reading - how you made the common mistake (it was just a mistake, right?) of identifying sexual activity with teenagers as the same thing as pedophilia (sexual interest in prepubescent children).

To summarize to that point: You ignored that Greer was talking about looking at photographic representations of male beauty; you responded as if you thought Greer was asserting that only gay men sexually assaulted children; you responded with instances of female sexual activity with teenagers as if it were refuting your original erroneous conclusion; and you conflated pedophilia with sexual activity with teenagers. Whew!

My response was simply to show you that your interpretation of the partial statement by Greer was wrong. I produced the part of the quote that Chris omitted and other material to prove that what Greer was saying is that women, too, have historically been interested in boys' beauty. Not to praise this position. Not to damn this position. Not to discuss the position. Just to point it out to you. For accuracy.

Your response was to change direction.  But more telling, you played that old trick, "you must be one of them, too":

Not quite so sure it matters which adult is sexualizing the child - especially if the objectified one finds it creepy. But I shouldn't be surprised you find such intrusivness acceptible.

That was just hazily enough worded, but it sure sounded to me like you were saying that I approve of sexually exploiting children. So fuck you very much for that you miserable asswipe.

I gather you have some sort of issues.  Please don't take them out on me that way.

---

by: Pollyanna @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 01:14:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

...

I omitted it because it was deceptively quoted were I got it.

And even how you (and as far I see what you think I, too) understand it I think there is malevolence in that quote. And you are inconsistent: Kathleen also links to stories that are about sex with teenagers. (I know that the point there is that it's from a position of power.)
Furthermore one shouldn't forget that many people including many journalists make no difference between pedophilia, pederasty etc. It's all the same for them.

And to the rest: I don't really see the reason for you to freak out and insult Kathleen. Going back to the Gates issue, I think you are the one who has issues: You are the one that always assumes a lot. You decide what other people think or meant to validate your position.

---

by: Chris From Old Europe @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 10:18:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, Pollygripe

I can't believe you kiss my mother with that mouth.

I don't share your views on Greer's opinions and actions seeking to normalize her desire to desire boys (which is what she calls them). If you wish to defend her views - feel free. Or if you have your own views on appropriate relations between adults and boys or girls or teens - please share them. Perhaps you could write a post about your views on the subject.

For myself, I don't see how her actions could be viewed as anything less than intrusive. The subject chosen to exemplify her ideal of the type of boy she lusts for found her use of him intrusive. Nothing you've yet said points to any variance between your views and hers on the subject.
 

---

by: Kathleen @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 20:13:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh gosh, I wish I had a nickel for

every trans woman I've met who claims to be intersex. All because they desperately want it to be physical instead of mental. I think the question that should be asked is why, exactly, is mental transsexualism so stigmatized but if it's physical, then you're acceptable? What if your transsexualism is purely mental-- how does that make you any less legitimate? What are they actually basing this on? I think it departs from science and resorts to a metaphysical notion of what makes a human being. Since it's unscientific, it's nothing but bigotry.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 00:14:49 AM CDT

it reminds me

of the distinction homobigots use between "choosing to be that way" and "being born that way".  when you think about it, why should it matter if i am gay or "choose the gay lifestyle"?  if we really believe in personal liberty for every person, the choice/innate question should be irrelevant.  bigots give a pass to people who can prove their "defect" is a physical accident that they can't help.  this is all predicated on the assumption that there is something fundamentally wrong or lamentable about being gay or trans.  what bullshit, eh?

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

---

by: Lurleen @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 00:52:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

well, strictly speaking

The reason that transsexualism is classified as mental is because it causes mental suffering.

That is, it is an acknowledged issue of a physical nature, but because it has mental effects, it's classified as a mental one in terms of the effects it has.

Check out another one in the same basic model: Alzheimer's.

So, regardless, its ultimately both physical and mental.  Indeed, in order to have the diagnosis -- be it NOS (for those who are intersex) or in adults -- you must have displayed some significant clinical impairment.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 02:04:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't claim to be intersexed...

...But yeah, I get what you're saying. In the trans community, intersex is perceived by many as a higher order. If you'd have asked me a week ago, I'd have told you one was no better or worse than the other.

My comment isn't so much about whether intersex or trans is actually better than the other, but looking at the internalized transphobia within me left me to discover that I perceive (I feel) one is better than the other when I intellectually know that one isn't better than the other. I'm also realizing that many others in society have similar biases.  

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:40:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm just very skeptical of all such claims by trans women

Undoubtedly there are some who really were born intersex and wrongly raised male. But I'm skeptical that they form any more than a tiny percentage of all trans women, compared to the many who like to claim they're intersex. In fact, I know someone whose attitude totally reeks of internalized transphobia, who acts all high and mighty toward other trans women but claims intersex for herself. This increases my skepticism.

The fact is, a vagina is much easier to surgically sculpt than a penis. Involuntary genital reassignment surgery done on intersex infants is almost always to remove the micropenis and form a vagina. Not the other way around, as these women like to claim for themselves. If intersex were really so prevalent in the transsexual population, it would have to be almost entirely FTM people who had been genitally reassigned in infancy. But I've never met anyone FTM who claims intersex, it's always MTF women claiming it.

The raphe is a dark-pigmented line that runs down the underside of the penis, through the midline of the scrotum and perineum. It becomes darker and more visible in pre-op trans women who take estrogen. I know trans women who noticed this in themselves, and took it as evidence of surgery in infancy, to mean their original vagina had been "sewn up." It's fraudulent. All because many trans women are so desperate to claim intersex, because we've been taught to hate ourselves. Well, I have news for you. I'm actually the princess of Romania who was stolen by gypsies and sold to a poor hardworking American family. One day the truth will come out and I will reclaim what's rightfully mine. Disrespect me at your peril, peasants!

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:59:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I must disagree;

The fact is, a vagina is much easier to surgically sculpt than a penis. Involuntary genital reassignment surgery done on intersex infants is almost always to remove the micropenis and form a vagina. Not the other way around, as these women like to claim for themselves.

That is today not 50 ti 60 years ago when many of my peers were borne. It was easier to leave a micropenis and sew up a vagina.

We have to keep things in perspective.

The raphe is a dark-pigmented line that runs down the underside of the penis, through the midline of the scrotum and perineum. It becomes darker and more visible in pre-op trans women who take estrogen. I know trans women who noticed this in themselves, and took it as evidence of surgery in infancy, to mean their original vagina had been "sewn up." It's fraudulent. All because many trans women are so desperate to claim intersex, because we've been taught to hate ourselves. Well, I have news for you. I'm actually the princess of Romania who was stolen by gypsies and sold to a poor hardworking American family. One day the truth will come out and I will reclaim what's rightfully mine. Disrespect me at your peril, peasants!

While your statement regarding the raphe is actually true this doesn't account for undescended testicles or one or both testicles missing or other mixed sex characteristics.
There is a long list of intersex characteristics that are common in classical transsexuals.

You cannot paint the whole TS community (classical or otherwise) with such a broad brush.  

---

by: LiZ @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 13:19:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm talking about the people I know

who are no different from the rest of us, but who like to think they're better than everyone else.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 13:28:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

All Hail, Queen of the Romania!

I had missed your sharp wit Sis!
Glad to see you back!

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 18:03:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

By the way, that would make us related

though distantly, the House of Hohenzollern ruled both Germany and Romania

My great grandmother was a Wittlesbach

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 18:05:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I know one trans women who genuinely has Kleinfelter's

She began to spontaneously grow breasts at puberty. Her brother raped her and she was thrown out of her family. Looking at her, all you can see is a perfect, gorgeous woman with no sign of testosterone in her features, and you could never believe she'd been assigned male at birth. She was in college and hadn't had a chance to change her ID yet, so it said she was male. But when she was about to board a plane, she was very worried she'd be busted by the airport security because it was impossible for her to look like a boy, no matter how hard she tried.

That is an example of a real intersex trans woman. Very rare, and totally distinguishable from all the poseurs out there. Don't fall for the hype, Autumn. Love yourself as you are.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 13:13:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's real common

among women in or post transition. I can bring up my address book and point to five or six I know on a face to face basis. There is a common myth that disorders of sexual development are just as rare in the TS community as in the general public. That is far from the truth there are 5-10 times as many people with DSDs in the TS community.  

---

by: LiZ @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 13:22:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Please provide a cite

preferably from a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 13:29:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What do you think

brings them into the community looking for how fix the conflict between body and mind?

Occam's Razor applies here.  

---

by: LiZ @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 13:47:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm with you here, Hypatia.

If one makes a statistical sounding claim, then one needs to be able to cite a source that backs up one's claim.

In my case regarding a possible intersex condition, it's the number of symptoms I have that align with the symptoms of Klinefelter's Syndrome that led to me being tested for it. I probably wouldn't have been tested for the condition if their weren't other healthcare concerns tied to the XXY chromosomal pattern. Frankly, I wouldn't have intellectually seen a point to the testing otherwise -- it really changes nothing about my life history.

Since being tested though, I found that I had a hidden desire to be intersexed -- and that's a wrong-headed way of thinking about sex & gender, in my opinion. Now that I've discovered that I have some internalized transphobia (and it's now in the open where I can examine it), I can deal with it. My hidden desire to have a scientific sounding explanation for my trans life experiences shouldn't -- and therefore won't -- impact my political view of civil rights for any minority group as being human rights issues.

And, if I do turn out to be an intersexual, that won't actually make me better or worse than anyone else. My intellectual understanding that we are all human and all deserve to be treated with equality under the law will actually be the guide for how I live my life.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 15:53:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe so, but not according to the intersex themselves...

According to the endocrinologists and the intersex themselves:

...the majority of the intersexed are heterosexual, having no more of a propensity for homosexuality than those who are not intersexed

...the exact definition of intersex is yet to be agreed upon by the endocrinologists and but within the intersex movement

...the vast majority have no gender dysphoria issues whatsoever and are content with their assigned gender, this is even more the case with those intersex with normal genitalia and intersex only by virtue of a chromosomal anomoly.

...many endocrinologists do not consider chromosomal abnormalities (such as Kleinfelter's Sundrome) in and of itself to even be intersex; the vast majority of those with chromosomal anomalities never even realizing they are affected.

The transgender movement and the GLBT as a whole should respect the integrity of the intersex and leave them out of their appropriative, colonization, and assimilation tactics.  Read their sites, read their blogs...the intersex want nothing to do with the GLBT.

---

by: EnoughNonSense @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 15:29:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

hmmm....

i've been a consumer of mental health services my entire adult life and getting over the stigma that comes from suffering mentally is one of the most difficult things i've done.  even if its all in my head, its still real.  it still hurts.  
but many people's mental pain is denied and denigrated and then classified as lesser and undesirable.  its still acceptable in mainstream medicine to treat physical pain as being more serious than mental pain, which just feeds the self-hating.  i used to think that my self-hating was just internalized transphobia, but now i just see it as an extension of stigma i feel for treating something that to an outsider appears to be "all in my head" and possibly not real.  

add to the mix mental health practitioners that insist that all your problems come from your trans.  and then when you suddenly don't look trans to them, they'd like to forget all about it, as if the rule "if i can't see it, then i doesn't exist" is best policy. its disgusting and no matter how hard i try to not see myself like other people do, i still find myself doubting every once in a while.

don't fall into the trap, autumn.  

---

by: kian217 @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 14:20:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Greer is bile on legs

...a nasty, hateful piece of work. There's no way to reach common ground, or even peaceful tolerance, with someone who sees not you but an embodiment/relection of their own rotted ego structure. Pay her no mind, Darlin'.
She IS a fundamentalist, though; just a gender one. Her views are at once absolutist & essentialist, thus guaranteeing that almost nobody will ever be "woman enough" to suit Ms. G.  
I continue to be amused by her silence regarding transmen. Not that I haven't already been called everything imaginable by haters like her. Small vicious people tend to lack imagination.
As far as your personal situation goes, I can only ask: is it really better to trade hatred for pity? B/c I fear that would be the deal. I don't believe such people view intersex folks any better than they do transfolk; there's just pity instead of hate b/c there's a "tragic" physical problem. I totally agree on the good sense in knowing as much about your medical history as possible. I just suspect that that may be all the good you get from this.  

---

by: hardcorps80204 @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 00:34:42 AM CDT

I've known IS folk

to look down their noses at TS people. They see their condition as more concrete (real) and less abstract (lack of a better term-a feeling) as it can be for Transsexuals.

It's sad.

Dena  

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" (or non) is so 2006.

---

by: Denabeth @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 01:38:37 AM CDT

Maybe they need to

Perhaps Inter sexed should include transsexual's ???

instead of Trans(anything)

Since the Science is showing Differences in the Brain for male and female..

Therefore it is my contention that they drop the lables of trans for Intersexed internal or external

external Intersexed for Ambiguous external genitals
And
Internal Intersexed for abiguous brain structure.

I think with more time and evidence from MRI's and such it will show this to be true and correct than trans which means to move from one place to another ... How can one move from were one has always been..


Pain is Inevitable .
Suffering is Optional  

---

by: Ana @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:30:18 AM CDT

Greer is not germane, period.

Hey Autumn,

Please don't be disappointed if you don't turn out to have Kleinfelter's.  It's better to work on dislodging that last bit of internalized transphobia. Greer and her nasty thoughts are not germane to the discussion of transsexualism, intersexism, or even feminism.

Yes, Greer may have some impact on the gullible and as cover for those whose bigotry is worn on their sleeve, just as others of them will hide behind sadly mistaken interpretations of sacred scripture.

Here's what I just posted to Kate's blog:

Greer once again shows us that her thoughts are never germane.  When She writes:

"Nowadays we are all likely to meet people who think they are women, have women's names, and feminine clothes and lots of eyeshadow, who seem to us to be some kind of ghastly parody, though it isn't polite to say so."

she could just as easily be writing about any woman who has an over-the-top femme presentation.

Are they not women because they don't measure up to some androgynous feminist ideal?

of course Greer makes her own concept clearer when she writes a couple sentences later:

"Other delusions may be challenged, but not a man's delusion that he is female."

Well, the un-germane Greer seems to make sense only if we define "who is a man" in such a way as to mean only male-identified individuals. Then it doesn't make any sense at all, since a "male-identified" individual wouldn't think he was female unless he was delusional.

Picture the burly bearded male-identified construction worker being worried about his period being late, or imagining he's having one, despite having the wrong plumbing.  I would agree, the poor thing would nearly as delusional as Greer.

---

by: Joann Prinzivalli @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:08:41 AM CDT

klinfelters and transsexualism?

Journal Archives of Sexual Behavior
Publisher Springer Netherlands
ISSN 0004-0002 (Print) 1573-2800 (Online)
Issue Volume 1, Number 2 / June, 1971
DOI 10.1007/BF01541057
Pages 131-142
Subject Collection Behavioral Science
SpringerLink Date Saturday, April 23, 2005

"Abstract:  
Interview data on aspects of sex and eroticism from a sample of 10 chromosomally male (XY) patients with the complete testicular feminization (androgen insensitivity) syndrome and from a sample of 23 patients with the late-treated adrenogenital
syndrome.

behavior suggest a tendency
for the androgen-insensitive patients as a
group to have a lower sex drive, to be less keenly aware
of their sex drive,
to be less assertive in heterosexual relations, and to be less versatile in coitus than the adrenogenital patients. No case of exclusive lesbianism, transsexualism, or
transvestism was reported from either patient group"

Daniel N. Masica1, John Money1    and Anke A. Ehrhardt1

(1)  Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences and Department of Pediatrics, The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, Maryland, USA
(2)  Phipps 400, The Johns Hopkins University, 1969-70, USA

(where is there any correlation?
and for the record, i am NOT IS.....)

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by: javier000000 @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 17:50:40 PM CDT

other referances

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K...

wiki site  also shows no gender identity correlation in klinefelders.i'm pretty sure that the collection of syndromes called by some "IS" are not related to each other, or GID either.
this seems like a red herring for the tg community....
one doesn't need to be "authenticated" to deserve one's civil rights.....!

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by: javier000000 @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 18:18:32 PM CDT

also, more facts for the study-minded...

http://www.klinefeltersyndrome...

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by: javier000000 @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 18:22:14 PM CDT

impairments (of this syndrome)

"Language Impairment
Although they are not mentally retarded, most males with Klinefelter syndrome have some degree of language impairment. As children, they often learn to speak much later than other children, and may have difficulty learning to read and write. And while they eventually do learn to speak normally, most tend to have some degree of difficulty with language throughout their lives"
(doubt this fits you, Autumn!)

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by: javier000000 @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 18:26:14 PM CDT

It would be a bad idea

It would be a bad idea for transgender to try to creep into intersex issues.  It isn't welcome.  Those who think it is need to talk to some actual intersex people and see how they feel about it.

I've never met any intersex person who looks down their nose at me.  There are a quite a few who look down their nose at the idea of transgenderism, but that is just like most of society.  

And anyone who thinks that intersex is higher on some invented scale, obviously isn't a member of that group.  Intersex is not what people here seem to think it is.  Just ask them.

http://ariablue.wordpress.com/

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by: Aria @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 19:24:31 PM CDT

Don't give a flying rats rectum if it's not welcomed

I really don't care one bit if it's welcomed or not.. Facts are that they are finding the structure of male and female differ like the external portions differ.. So just cause you cant see it with out help of a instrument does not make it not true..

I still contend if one is going to determine something as intersexed based only on what visible external Then we should throw out any evidence of chromosomes since they can only be seen via a electron microscope.

I hope you see the absurdity to not include those with a female brain and male body just cause you cant see the brain structure. It lack honesty...      

Pain is Inevitable .
Suffering is Optional  

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by: Ana @ Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 21:48:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Gee

Now that's an enlightened approach.

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by: EnoughNonSense @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 01:55:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually, according to Greer, intersex people ARE ghastly parodies.

She's railed against having "broken men" classified as women - even though there are plenty of intersex people who have identified as women their entire lives and never had any reason to believe that they weren't women.

Yeah. She's just a ghastly parody of a feminist.

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by: Kittyburger @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 06:34:45 AM CDT

Don't we take enough abuse without abusing each other? Enough!!!!

Just how many lines do we need to draw in this 'community' til everyone has the illusion of not being associated with the 'other?'

Lesbians are being raped, gay men are dying for lack of healthcare in places, trans-people of all identifications are murdered and we continue this frivolous luxury of splitting hairs over identification, claiming that this or that is some kind of earth shattering insult or affront, pulling verbal knives out to extablish just how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin.

Enough, for God's sake!!!!!

We cannot win our rights precisely because of this kind of divisiveness, which saps energy, enthusiasm and motivation; it breeds distrust and contempt amongst ourselves.

We are the agents of our own downfall/
Perhaps we have been found wanting in the cosmic scale...

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 20:46:03 PM CDT