ABC's New Gay Stereotypes

Ugh

You're right, even the poster is offensive.  I can't imagine that this show could be entertaining in any way.  Probably won't make it through a season.

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by: JosephineTx @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 13:07:42 PM CDT

First clue this was not going to be a happy diary:

I was just invited to preview a pilot ...

That said, I'm curious to hear what exactly the Asian baby did to offend you.  Absent details, I'm gonna assume any bad behavior began only after its arrival on that side of the planet that voluntarily subjects itself to ABC comedy pilots.

Ha!


twitter.com/ChinoBlanco | youtube.com/ChinoBlanco

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by: Chino Blanco @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 13:16:09 PM CDT

"I'm curious to hear what exactly the Asian baby did to offend you"

You know, the only thing that could have made this show worse would have been getting an actress to voice a fake Asian accent and doing "Look Who's Talking" bit with the baby.

"Oh, rooky that. Me got two daddies."

I'm actually surprised they didn't, now that I mention it.

They actually lured me in with an email about a new show with gay characters. I think they're trying to score GLAAD brownie points.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 19:25:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not worth the time or energy to even criticize it

All "family comedies" are just a rehashing of the same premise: Fat and or retarded husband with hot wife and abnormally smart-alecky and generally annoying kids. Anything else (the stereotypical gay couple, the crude ethnic stereotype) is just window dressing.

I doubt they intended to be offensive, I think they (like the entire tv industry) just lack all real creativity and originality so they simply have to use the same formula over and over again.

There are few exceptions to this rule (like Frasier which I personally thought was hilarious) and in general it is easy to spot that formula pretty fast.

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by: tbaxfer @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 13:46:11 PM CDT

I should have given more detail about the offensive gay characters

In one scene, they show the baby's room that the couple has decorated.

On the wall, they've painted a mural that recreates Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling -- the one with God creating man.

Except in their mural, the God and Adam characters have the face of the gay characters and one is holding the baby.

So, these gay men are vain and teaching their child warped views of Christianity. Isn't that nice? Won't that go over well with the Freepers?

How many gay parents do you know who would do something this inappropriate and over-the-top? I know several gay couples with children and their kids' rooms are just like every other kid's room. No gay murals. Nothing flamboyant or bizarre.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 19:44:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not surprising in the least.

There's nothing Movie Studios, Television Networks, or Record Labels hate more than a new, original, or fresh idea.  

It's much easier to keep repackaging the same old crap.

A huge part of the reason I quite watching television years ago....

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by: sfalken @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 14:10:47 PM CDT

The poster alone, would have me saying, no thanks

The networks know half the cr*p they launch each season won't last 2 weeks.
what's  worse, if two networks have good shows, they put them opposite each other, and leave 5 other nights with NOTHING to watch.

9 pm on Lifetime is 2nd episode of Project Runway
where at least the stereotypes aren't manufactured.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 19:15:26 PM CDT

ha ha ha

whats wrong,is this show hitting to close to home for a some us..

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by: sickntired @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 19:19:52 PM CDT

Oh yeah! I almost forgot...

I just remembered why I don't watch network television...especially all of those tired plug-n-play-character sitcoms.

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by: kelehe @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 19:20:26 PM CDT

I don't think I've watched anything on ABC for 10 years

I'm not exaggerating. I can't think of a single show.

The last thing I remember watching on ABC was Nightline. I don't know how they stay in business.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 19:32:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Chuck and Larry

Ellen and Rosie.  We are good for laughs to brain dead middle America sitting in church every Sunday.    

Same-Sex Marriage is good for the economy.

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by: CharlesMerrill @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 19:37:03 PM CDT

Don't get me started on Chuck and Larry

That movie pissed me off the first time I saw the poster. Great, a movie that gets to make fun of gay people and help push the right wing meme that marriage equality will lead to fraud! And sure enough, back in February when Civil Unions was heating up on here in Hawaii, it was the first thing the local morning radio idiots brought up.

Hudson and Scotty B asked one morning, "Why do gay people want civil unions?" So I called in to give a few reasons (kinship rights), and first thing Scotty said was, "Well, what about fraud and stuff? Like the Adam Sandler movie 'Chuck and Larry'?" I'm just glad I had enough presence of mind to fire back, "What about Chuck and Larry? It's a stupid Adam Sandler movie, not real life. But if you want to bitch about movies about marriage fraud, look at 'Green Card,' with Andie McDowell and Gerard Depardieu. A man and woman who have never met got married so the guy can avoid deportation. That's way closer to the reality we have right now!"

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:09:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The ONLY ABC shows we watch is Ugly Betty and the VIEW

pretty lame ABC if you want a diverse audience.
I've never forgiven Dateline for their Matthew Shepard revisionist history...what a foul f*ckin lying show.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 19:45:54 PM CDT

I tend to float pretty high

on the "raging queen" scale, but TV "queeny" characters still never fail to piss me off.  I don't think the "type" has ever been represented (outside specifically gay media) as anything other than an obnoxious stereotype.  I can't see myself in any of the characters who are supposed to represent my "type" (and who are played almost exclusively by straight or closeted men).

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by: M @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:01:40 PM CDT

Ableism

Whats with the ableist language being used to complain about a show thats offensive?

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by: IraeNicole @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:02:34 PM CDT

You mean the language used to describe the stereotypes?

How would you do it?

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by: Chris From Old Europe @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:16:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you

Recently, I used the word "prostitute" on this blog to describe a person who sells her talents and abilites for an unworthy cause.

A person who describes herself as "sex worker" objected to my use of the term.

Can you think of a single-word alternative? I can't. The word has two very distinct definitions. Since the person I was writing about is obviouslt not a sex worker, it has to be the other meaning.

This kind of crap has gotten completely out of control.

As a disabled person, I can't begin to describe how offended I am that someone who doesn't know diddley squat about me would accuse me of being "ableist" in any way.

Another time, a person called me "ageist" for using the term "elderly" in an essay. Seriously.

A few months back, a person objected to me writing that someone is an alcoholic -- she said I should have written "person with alcoholism" instead.

These people seem to exist to look for the use of any word that they can point to as being objectionable. We could all do the same thing to them -- if we were socially retarded (uh, oh that's ableist).

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:33:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's why allowing for

excessive early 90's style PCism shuts down conversation.  You can't turn the world into a support group.  Blatant bigotry and slurs should be off limits but conversation the smother words like elderly are disfunctional outside of a support group or college classroom.  That said I really encourage people not to say "retarded" as an insult because it's hurtful to people that don't deserve to be hurt (see you can say that without using a made up term).

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by: onthesea @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:10:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree

I could have used "intellectually limited" but I was writing in a voice that is deliberately provacative.

I used several offensive terms:

"slutty" "fat" "old" "bitchy"

I thought it was obvious that I was attempting to create a list that could be attributed to a bigoted comedy writer.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:20:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Concern troll?

That's just what we need. Care to elaborate on what you consider to be "ableism"? Or, is this yet another disruptive drive-by from the self-appointed language police?

In case you didn't catch on, I'm playing into the stereotypes with the language that I've used.

Does that make me "ableist"? Hardly.

This is why it is impossible to have a decent discussion on PHB and several other progressive blogs. Someone who doesn't even know you will accuse you of being sexist, mysogynist, ableist, ageist, and anything else that pops into their heads -- totally ignoring the big picture.

Stop trying to be the language police. That is the most offensive thing any person can do.

Be offended by something that matters, not by something that you imagine.

I am a disabled person, BTW.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:19:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wow

A lot of attitude about this show by a lot of people who haven't seen it based on ONE PERSON'S opinion.

I haven't seen it either.  Gotta tell you the news, though. The buzz on this show is that it is terrific.  It's got maybe the best word of mouth this season.

I know the creators and they are wildly talented, smart, and very gay friendly.

I think I'll withhold judgment til I have actually seen it and not just the poster.

PS The Sistine Chapel sounds funny to me.

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by: DavidinPS @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:22:05 PM CDT

As I wrote

Most of the feedback was negative and specifically mentioned the stereotypes.

The creators may be "gay friendly" but it is obvious that they aren't gay. I doubt that anyone connected with this project is.

PS The Sistine Chapel sounds funny to me.

It is insulting to gay parents. Most gay parents are never going to do inappropriate things like this. This will only serve to make us look like freaks in the eyes of the general public.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:38:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fritz

Sit-com writers are so heavily gay dominated field, I wouldn't claim there aren't some writing this drek. That said, not all gay sit-com writers are equal.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:50:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

David

The presentation launching this show INCLUDES the poster.
If I and several others are immediately turned off by the image, that is the show's crappy PR team's fault.
The supposed joke below about "mean lesbians, and then imagine them pregnant"....won't fly with me.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:54:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just wait until a latino critic reviews this

I really am more offended by the latina stereotype. It is absolutely horrific.

She is a "fiery latina" who practically does a Charo "coochie coochie" routine. She's an over-sexed gold digger. Come on!

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 21:01:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Totally agree

You can tell from the picture, where she's pursing her lips in a "sexy" way.  I repeat, ugh!

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by: JosephineTx @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 21:41:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ick

Watched part of a brief preview on YouTube.  Dialogue from the couple who adopted the baby:

"We initially asked one of our lesbian friends to be a surrogate."

"Then we figured, they're already mean enough - can you imagine one of them pregnant?  No thank you.  Ick."

Blecch!  

Gods always behave like the people who make them. - Zora Neale Hurston

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by: Esquisito @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 20:35:33 PM CDT

I miss my friend.

I'm an over-50, straight woman.  My best friend, the matron of honor at my wedding 15 years ago, killed herself because she was fired from Federal service.  She had severe depression because her partner dumped her; they said she was faking.  I miss my friend.  I'm here because I want to better understand.

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by: PSzymeczek @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 21:32:24 PM CDT

I suggest writing a diary here

Just write what you've shared here. You'll get lots of feedback,

I'd like to share this video that Jane Wieldin posted a couple of months ago. She had a very similar thing happen to her best friend.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 21:37:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You don't seem to like anything in the entertainment field

that has any gay stereotype.  What about the gay and lesbians who actually fit those stereotypes?  Or the Latinas who do speak like "Speedy Gonzalez"? Or any of those others you have listed.  There ARE people out there who ARE the stereotypes (otherwise there wouldn't be any stereotypes at all).  Are those people supposed to be denied any representation of themselves simply because they ARE a walking stereotype?

And what exactly is "half-retarded".  Also, Latina is with a capital "L" just like Asian has a capital "A".  

I have yet to see you like anything in entertainment that has a gay character.  What would you think is suitable?  Clones of heterosexuals?  

But I suppose those who are the stereotypes are always being asked to "butch" it up for those who are embarrassed by them, or insecure around those overtly flamboyant.  We just had a diary about "what is the appropriate way to be gay" and I suppose one must now assimilate and be the butch man or femme gal in order to have any representation on television.  Heaven forbid we show some of the more stereotypical LGBT's on a , gasp, sit-com.  Which in and of itself is ALWAYS about stereotypes.  I can't think of any sit-com that wasn't or isn't about a stereotype.    

I know and love many people who are those walking stereotypes, and sometimes they deserve to be seen, just as much as anyone else.  And appreciated as well.  Stereotypes need love too.

 

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

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by: R.K. Wright @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 21:42:50 PM CDT

Yeah, yeah, yeah

This is all about me and what a horrible person I am. That's yet another great way to disrupt the conversation.

I have yet to see you like anything in entertainment that has a gay character.

I don't even know you. For you to make a generalization like this is unfair and abusive.

You are yet another person at PHB who adds nothing to converstion other than personal attacks and abuse.

Rather than make your point, you have to attack me personally. This is a pattern for you. I would like to see the trap door dropped on you ASAP.

How about the rest of you? Do you like the way this person made this a personal attack on me and my character? Is this how you want things to continue on PHB?

I know and love many people who are those walking stereotypes...

So, you think of your friends as "walking steeotypes" do you?

It is more likely that you don't understand what a stereotype is.

These are actors who are playing stereotypical roles. They are not real people.

Stereotypes need love too.

Stereotypes need to be avoided. Mincing, vain queens are the classic stereotypical depiction of gay men. Are there gay men who are like that? Sure. But, there are many more who are not. And, I don't think those qualities should be shown to be typical of gay parents.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:08:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sitcoms don't usually show "typical" anything

I don't take any sitcom, and this is clearly meant to be one even if it doesn't succeed in being funny, as showing qualities "typical" of anyone.  I suspect the show is going to show that these two men wanted and love this baby very much and want only the best for her.  

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by: kt @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:30:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I doubt that

The baby is nothing more than a prop. Maybe that's part of the problem.

There was something disturbing and dehumanizing about the whole thing.

I don't even think they called her by a name. The characters were introduced on an airplane and the scene involved how horrified other passengers were to find out that they were the parents of the child.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:37:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

But Fritz you should realize

that "queen" is spelled with a capital "Q."

But in all seriousness this last post and others are examples of disruptive attacks. Instead of offering an opinion or furthering the conversation, you attack the original poster's ideas and pick apart language, etc.

And for the poster who can't think of any sitcom that is not based on stereotypes....while many sitcoms are based on stereotypes, these are usually the weakest shows. And there is a difference between "popular shows" and "well written intelligent shows." Pushing Daisies was not overly popular, but it was well written (and if they showed a character who was a stereotype, its was usually in a way that questioned how the person was acting). I also like Better Off Ted.

I guess the question is, does the show use a stereotype as a back drop for great jokes or is the stereotype the main joke.  

nothing new at this time.....

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by: Mattkazoo @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:17:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I realize that criticizing comedy is dangerous

People are very defensive when it comes to their comedy shows. I was smeared unmercifully when I dared to write about the Bruno movie.

The thing is, these people don't know me. I could be the biggest raging queen on the planet for all they know. But, that doesn't really matter.

If someone wants to watch the pilot and write that they disagree with me, that's one thing.

To write that I "don't seem to like anything in the entertainment field" is not constructive. Not only that, it isn't true.

If you go to my blog at http://blog.albumartexchange.com,
you will see that I like a lot of things. Some of my reviews are negative. Others are positive. I'm not a reactionary.

There are many people who comment on this blog who I suspect are really right-wing trolls who come here to disrupt our threads and create discord (I don't really but it seems that way sometimes).

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:31:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's right (about the trolls)

But not all are right-wing trolls. Burnsey doesn't seem to be a right-wing troll. I don't think it was meant as an attack, but he just expressed his impression.

But yes, people defend comedy aggressively, even if it is obviously not that great.

PS: I agree with Mattkazoo, Pushing Daisies was well written and I thought it ridiculed the stereotypes.

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by: Chris From Old Europe @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:43:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Please, quote me fuly and correctly.

I do that when quoting others.  I do not take them out of context.

My full quote is:

You don't seem to like anything in the entertainment field that has any gay stereotype.

Which is far different than you don't like anything in entertainment field.

I can only go off of what you write on these blog pages, I do not know of any other blog you write on, and know you from your own words on this site.

I'm sorry that you feel like I am attacking you, but I am not.  I just disagree with your premise about the usage of stereotypes, and stated as much.

If you think a disagreement is an attack, I do not know what to say.  You wrote a diary and it's on the front page, that opens your diary and your ideas up for dissemination and discussion, and yes, disagreement.  I thought that was the purpose of the blog.  

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

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by: R.K. Wright @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:58:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

EXACTLY

I guess the question is, does the show use a stereotype as a back drop for great jokes or is the stereotype the main joke.

You have hit the nail on the head. In this show, the stereotypes are the joke.

I forget who said it here; Fritz, it may have been you talking about Bruno, or someone in the Bruno thread. The person making the post mentioned that every time someone makes a mincing queen type joke it's upsetting to them, and the inevitable response is, "Oh, come on, can't you take a joke?"

No, because it's not just a joke. It's the same damn old gag from the same tired old stereotype. It's the same unfunny "joke" that's been told since the goddamn 1930s, and we are tired of it.

It's not so funny when you ARE the joke. Especially when you've been the joke your entire life and then some.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 03:18:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

There are people who just don't get it

They never will.

They don't understand what a stereotype is and how it can be harmful.

The person attacking me personally on this thread would rather try to discredit my opinion by writing that I don't like anything with a gay character in it.

He says his friends ARE stereotypes because they display the characteristics that are exploited by the stereotypes.

It is a fact that many African-Americans like fried chicken. If you go to a soul food restaurant, you will see it at the top of the menu.

That doesn't mean that it is okay for a sitcom to have a black actor smile wide and say "I sho do likes me some fried chicken."

Then, there are people who think it is fine for a white actor to paint his face black and say that line, too.

I've argued about this until I'm sick of it.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 04:33:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Again with the misquotes in an attempt to vilifiy

You can't seem to quote me correctly so let me once again point out what I actually said:

You don't seem to like anything in the entertainment field that has any gay stereotype.

Again, not what you quote me as saying.  First you claim I said you didn't like anything in entertainment.  Then you claim I said you didn't like anything with a gay character in it.  Both are willful misrepresentations of what I said in order to bolster your argument.  Why must you twist peoples words into something other than what they actually said?  That half quote thing is exactly what bad politicians do, quote out of context to smear someone else.  Good for you Fritz.

I did notice that you attacked almost every poster on your own diary that did not aggree with your view.  That is your MO.  Just read this very diary and if you are honest you will see that almost every opinion other than those in agreement get blasted as "the worst thing".  you did it to DavidinPS, IraeNicole, and myself.  And then you want to cry victim.

Well, I won't let you attack me because I disagree with you.  I offered a compromise, where we ignore each other, but then you couldn't help but fan the flames by all your side attacks on me.

If you cannot take criticism or disagreement, then why do you continue to write diaries?  All it does is upset you when others don't agree with your viewpoint.  

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

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by: R.K. Wright @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 09:15:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I see it's ok for you to be "provacative"

But no one else.

That's fine.  And call for me to be banned, that's your prerogative.  I simply used the same style you did in my response to you and your diary.

I don't see you call for the banning of others who disagree, yet you attack their views as if only yours is correct.  You did the same thing in the discussions about the movie Bruno, that was what I was referencing in the "you don't seem to like any gay characters" statement.  I have yet to see you, on these pages, praise any characters in entertainment.

And yes, I do call some of my friends walking stereotypes, because some are.  Some of my drag queen friends are the epitome of stereotypical, and they would be the first to tell you that.

My point was that you seem to always have issue with what YOU perceive to be right and wrong, and allow there to be no middle ground.  As for personal attacks, not hardly, please, show me where I attacked you.  Disagreement with your central premise is hardly a "personal" attack.  I stayed civil and discussed the topic of the diary.  I simply was responding to the diary and your past diaries, in conjunction with another recently front paged diary by Autumn.  I thought the two conversations dovetailed nicely.  I'm sorry you didn't grasp that point.  

Your diary did in fact touch on the exact same issues as to what is the acceptable way to be LGBT.  And I thought it was an interesting intersection of two issues.  Sorry if that attempt at discussion upset or offended you.  That was not the intent.

My writing style, like yours, is what it is.  If it is not acceptable, then I would welcome a warning or notice from the moderators.  All these years of being here on PHB I have yet to receive a warning for my writing or my actions here.  And I have been here for years.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

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by: R.K. Wright @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:47:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"My point was that you seem to always..."

Saying that someone "always" does something when you don't even know that person is dishonest.

You can give one other example (Bruno) of when I objected to a a gay stereotype.

How does that lead to your conclusion that this is something I "always" do?

I can certainly state that there is a pattern to the way you constantly attack others on this blog. You are abusive and hostile.

Why can't you simply state your opinion without attacking others? What is wrong with you?

My point was that you seem to always have issue with what YOU perceive to be right and wrong...

That is called having an opinion. Why am I not entitled to have my opinion without being attacked?

All these years of being here on PHB I have yet to receive a warning for my writing or my actions here.  And I have been here for years.

And you are one of the people who drive reasonable people away. No one likes to be attacked and smeared by you. Most people just leave. Eventually, all Pam could end up with are damaged, anti-social misfits who don't know how to be civil.

Typically, when you start harassing others, a couple of the other nasty trolls who make people miserable here start piling on. I'm just waiting for them to show up on this thread.

Now please stop hijacking this thread.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 00:53:35 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why is it ok for you, but not me?

You seem to think it's not ok for someone else to express their opinion (me) but that you have the right to state yours without any challenge of that opinion.

Do you not understand the concept of a diary here or anywhere else on the web?  YOU put yourself out there for criticism and praise, as it may deem by what you write.  Just like you, I have a right to express my opinion on what others write here, just as they have the right to challenge what I write.  I do not know who taught you to believe that disagreement was being attacked, but they made a mistake, and have done you wrong.  Attacking is what you have done to me.  You misquote and misrepresent everything I write, and then call me the troll.  As for Bruno being the only other stereotype conversation, not true.  That's the only one of which you were the author.  frequently your comments are about sterotypes and things of that nature.  I applaud the fact that you are diligent on such a deserving topic (that is with sincerity) but why can't you read people with the respect you wish them to read you with?

I simply came on a front page diary and added my two cents, just like everyone else does.  Why am I a troll, but others who disagree vehemently with your view are not?  Face it Fritz, it isn't what I say, or even how I say it.  You just have a dislike for me and the way in which I express myself.

I could be Emily Post and it would still be rude, in your view, if I disagreed with your world view.  You were the one who harassed me last time this happened (You were even asked by the moderator to stop with your harassment of me), and you do it every time I post any comment that you don't agree with.

Pam obviously hasn't lost any readers in the last two and a half years I've been posting, and your concern for her well being is touching.  It seems maybe we should just ignore each other when in the same story, and I will refrain, mostly, from commenting on your diaries, unless they make the front page and I disagree.  Sounds like a reasonable compromise.  Ignore me and I ignore you except for those circumstanes as i mentioned.

best of luck.  

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

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by: R.K. Wright @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 01:21:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"You seem to think it's not ok for someone else to express their opinion..."

Your opinion DOES NOT extend to writing that I don't like anything that has gay characters in it.

That is a personal attack meant to discredit me.

Your implication is that I object to honest portrayals of gay people. That could not be further from the truth.

I know that you're probably used to people letting you get away with that kind of behavior. I choose not to.

I will defend myself..

I could be Emily Post and it would still be rude, in your view..

But, you're not Emily Post. You are an abusive person.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 04:40:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"You seem to think it's not ok for someone else to express their opinion..."

Your opinion DOES NOT extend to writing that I don't like anything that has gay characters in it.

That is a personal attack meant to discredit me.

Your implication is that I object to honest portrayals of gay people. That could not be further from the truth.

I know that you're probably used to people letting you get away with that kind of behavior. I choose not to.

I will defend myself..

I could be Emily Post and it would still be rude, in your view..

But, you're not Emily Post. You are an abusive person.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 04:40:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

As I get older...

... I less and less like to have opinion about something I haven't seen.  It is fun, though, and makes for lively discussion. Still...

What I do know:  Fritz saw it and didn't like what he considered stereotypes. He has gotten very exercised about the show. Oh, yeah, and I don't like the poster. I also know the creators of the show have excellent pedigree, are very gay friendly, gay people work on the show, and that the word of mouth about town--and among many gay people I've talked to- is that it is "the" show to watch this season.

Maybe Modern Family is offensive. Maybe it's one of those shows that takes equal opportunity shots at everyone. Maybe Fritz is right on. Maybe he is being overly sensitive. I don't know.  Like I said above, I am not going to get worked into a frenzy by one person's opinion, or by a poster (which I can tell you from experience the creators of the show would have had no say in).  I'm also going to wait to see what the tone of the show is.  You could quote lines from All in the Family that would have had us thinking it was a racist sitcom when actually the exact opposite was true. Tone is everything.  As is the prism through which you view it.

Why don't we all just wait until we have seen it before we pile on.

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by: DavidinPS @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 11:01:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No thanks -- I'm certainly not going to watch it.

As I get older, I'm able to better recognize when something is likely to be of interest to me and when it isn't.  This isn't.  And I could have spotted that when I was still a kid.

I'm not getting the point that having gay people on a project means that the project can not in any way be offensive or clueless when it comes to gay people.  Gay people have been on every project Hollywood ever put out and the vast majority of the century of Hollywood's product is offensive or clueless when it comes to gay people.

However, I googled and was horrified to find that you're right, this show is actually getting good buzz.  Is that a sign that it's good or a sign that the US's growing Latino audience is glad to see any representation on network tv?  Or maybe that broad gay stereotypes play better than well-written gay characters for a broadcast tv audience?  Could be either, both or more.

I'll say this for you, though: you're loyal to your friends.  I just wish your friends weren't putting out the same old tired trash.  Even ancient sitcoms ("Soap", for instance) were doing better by us twenty, thirty years or more ago, so there really is no excuse for this.

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by: diablorobotico @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 12:28:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

For me it needs balance

If all there is stereotypes, it's lousey writing.
If one or two characters have stereotypical behaviors but well written, and other characters aren't stereotypes, the show can work.

Ugly Betty has some stereotypes, and some play against type, and the writing makes me laugh.

Maybe a good question of the day would be our favorite portrayals in films and TV shows?

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:11:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Imagine this...

Petey, I was just watching this music video and thought, "What if the gay couple were a pair of flamboyant musicians with a white baby instead of the predictable Asian baby? What if they don't explain where the baby came from?"

Just watch this video and then imagine this to be the gay couple in the sitcom.

I think something like this would be hilarious. It would show a gay couple who may be flamboyant and edgy, but they would be cool rather than a couple of white picket-fence assimilators. Gay audiences would love it.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:44:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good Example

I could see someone like Alan Cummings being able to carry off a sit-com or dramedy which would be edgy, smart, and not one dimensional, so could Harvey Fierstein, even though both would be considered flamboyant in previous roles.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 00:52:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

A show with an ensemble of characters like RENT

Pansexual, multi ethnic, gender varient....HEAVEN!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 00:56:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It bothered me too...

... the implied equation of queeny with negative. Many of us are queeny, and that's not a bad thing. That's just who we are.

It is a problem when queeny is always linked to weakness, fastidiousness, even deceitfulness. One character that pops into mind is Dr. Smith from Lost in Space. I caught an old episode recently of that show, and Smith is definitely, though not explicitly, gay. And also weak, fastidious, and deceitful. So by linking gay and queeny with those other negative characteristics, they make gay and queeny a marker for those characteristics. Hence the bad stereotype.

On the bright side, there are a few wonderful portrayals of queeny gay men, with realistic complexity and dignity. One that comes to mind is Chiwetel Ejiofor's character Lola in the wonderful film "Kinky Boots".

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by: JonathanU @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:44:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"It is a problem when queeny..."

Which is why this show is so horrible.

I'm not writing about authentic queeniness. I'm writing about stereotypical queeniness.

These characters are vain, excessive and inappropriate.

Understand that the person who wrote that comment is more interested in attacking me personally than to entertain the thought that I know the difference between the gay queen stereotype and real people.

If you were offended by Dr. Smith, these characters will offend you. You won't see yourself in them.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:59:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ok...

Point taken, Fritz. I'll step off my high horse...

I was mostly just bothered by your wording, but I think I was too sensitive. Unfortunately there are still some anti-fem, misogynist people still in our community, and they tick me off.

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by: JonathanU @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 00:26:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's not just being queeny

First, it's the fact that they are reduced to this stereotype. Usually individuals have more depth.

If this good gays are a pure fun character in the sitcum, they may not be negative like Dr. Smith, but they are certainly portrayed as ridiculous. So it's not about being queeny, but about queeny people being ridiculous and inherently funny.

In sitcoms (soaps/drama are indeed different here) gay characters that are queeny and ridiculous aren't new. They are straight from the sitcom character building kit.

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by: Chris From Old Europe @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:06:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Exactly!

Thank you.

I think it could have been funny to show that these gay men went over-the-top in decorating their child's bedroom.

Where is stops being funny is when they are shown to be so vain as to put their own faces on the Sistine ceiling.

The writers are saying that queeny gay men are vain and ridiculous. That's not funny. It shows that they were more concerned with their own image than the happiness of their child. What a horrible message.

There is another scene in which one of the men makes his husband do a "chest bump" and they do it with their little pinkies raised in the air. That's horribly offensive.

First, a couple of queens aren't going to do a chest bump. Second, if they did they would probably do it in a very butch satirical way -- making fun of straight dudes. But, these writers don't understand that.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:21:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree...

The chest bump scene sounds incredibly offensive. So basically they've taken the Jack McFarland character from Will & Grace and converted him into an overweight gay couple. The Jack character was offensive 10 years ago. Who the hell thought it was a good idea now?

I knew it was a bad sign the minute a saw the preview clip. The gay couple is on a plane, and a woman walks by and says something like, "Look at that baby with the two cream puffs." One of the fathers thinks she is talking about them (instead of the dessert in the baby's hand) and goes off on a tirade. I call that offensive and lazy writing. When was the last time you've heard a gay person called a cream puff? Perhaps Jack Tripper was called that on Three's Company, 25 years ago.

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by: obtusegoose @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:42:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

True.

But most sitcoms are poorly written in their first season as the characters become more fleshed out.  Look at the Golden Girls and see how the first season was in it's character development.  And talk about queeny, the male gay housekeeper was right out of the building kit you mention.

Most sitcoms fall into that trap and are only successfully developed as the actors become used to the character and develop their back story and all that technical stuff about character building.  There have been some pretty horrendous first seasons of very well written (eventually) shows.  And some never get better.  This may well be one of those, but I will reserve judgment until I get to watch a show or two on my own.    

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

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by: R.K. Wright @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 00:11:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, it is to laugh.

Or the Latinas who do speak like "Speedy Gonzalez"?

There's a big, big difference between having an accent influenced by Spanish and "speaking like Speedy Gonzales." I live on the US/Mexico border and nobody I've ever met speaks like Speedy Gonzales. Not people who are natively bilingual, nor those who learn English later in life.

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by: kimpira @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 23:57:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Have you been to Miami?

I lived ther for five years, and found the opposite of what you found on the U.S./Mexico border.  I guess it all depends on location and what nationality of Latina you encounter.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

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by: R.K. Wright @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 00:01:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Could I have lots of butter on mine?

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by: Pollyanna @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 01:53:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just FYI

I'm stealing this picture for use in other threads. Pure gold. You rock.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 03:20:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Right

But I suppose those who are the stereotypes are always being asked to "butch" it up for those who are embarrassed by them, or insecure around those overtly flamboyant.

Right - and this is just the trap we desperately need NOT to fall into as a queer community.  If there is any central, "forest"-level unifying position among GLBT people, it's that everyone deserves the freedom to live their sex and gender dimensions as feels correct for them... including with respect to everyday behavioral characteristics that society, for whatever reason, has come to treat as "gendered".

By complaining when a TV show or movie features queeny gay men or butch lesbians, I fear we unintentionally send a message to those who DO camp it up, or drive Subarus to softball practice, that they're somehow defective.  And that contradicts everything we've been working for for decades.

(Incidentally, as a more stereotypically-"masculine" queer man, I've seen the converse of the "queeny stereotypes" problem.  Last week, a couple of guys at the 19 - a neighborhood gay bar known for its mixed crowd - spent half an hour vociferously doubting that I actually have Homosexual Tendencies(TM)!  I'd be very happy indeed to eventually see a world where we stop both stereotyping and reverse stereotyping, and accept that queer people, like any other group of people, come in all different varieties).

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by: CubPaws2008 @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 03:11:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"By complaining when a TV show or movie features queeny gay men..."

But, that's not what I'm doing. I know that's what the person making the comment above would like you to think, but that's just not the case.

There's nothing wrong with featuring queeny gay men in a TV show. However, it is harmful to play up the stereotypes for laughs.

Let's face it, the people watching this show will mostly be straight folks. They will be laughing at the vain queen who is worried about his "figure" and the his partner who says that women are "icky". They will laugh when one of the men tells his partner that he should hold the baby because he has a more "womanly" shaped body.

There are lots of shows with gay characters. I haven't objected to all of them -- as the comment above suggests.

I have only been critical of two portrayals of gay characters EVER -- Bruno and this sitcom pilot.

There are stereotypes that are not harmful. The kindly old country doctor is a stereotype. The Jewish mother is a stereotype. There's no denying that these characters are often featured in sitcoms.

Being queeny doesn't mean that a person is vain or weak or inappropriate. That's how this sitcom portrays the gay characters. They exploit the stereotype.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 05:14:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

is that me up there?

Sometimes, though thankfully it's less and less true as time goes on, lgbt people are so surprised to someone who sorta kinda seems to be a representation of themselves in popular culture they overlook that the joke is on them.

I remember when "To Wong Foo" came out so many of my gay friends were talking about how faaaaabbbbuuuulous the movie was--look, Wesley Snipes in a dress! A validation of drag! I felt like going around yelling and saying are you CRAZY?? This movie is a orgy of homophobia!! I've long blotted too many details of this movie out of mind to make a cogent argument about it, but we want so much to be the "normal" subjects of cultural depiction we are far too generous with what we put up with.

On the other hand, maybe that's just natural. I was never a big "Will and Grace" fan: When I occasionally watched it I guess I enjoyed the slapstick without dwelling too much on the meaning of uber-gay Jack and uber-neurotic Will. I've read a lot of anger about that show... I don't laugh at much of what passes for humor out there; when something does seem funny maybe the last thing we want is to have to examine everything with such a critical eye.

--ish

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by: ish @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 18:57:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This show looks like garbage to me

but I have to object to classing any "queenie" gay character as a bigoted stereotype.  There are proudly queenie eccentric gay men and they should not be put down for being themselves.

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by: onthesea @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:13:15 PM CDT

It has to do with the way it is done

It takes a special skill to transcend the stereotype.

We've all seen some great examples. There are some hilarious queeny characters in The Ritz as well as Rita Moreno doing an outrageous Puerto Rican accent.

Perhaps if the writing was witty and they didn't depend on the stereotypes for laughs it would be different.

The Ritz is a great example. The writing was superb. The jokes were funny. There are dozens of classic lines that came from that show.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:29:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've seen some promos for Sherri on Lifetime

The clips are funny....so far

It starts in October

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Thu Aug 27, 2009 at 22:20:59 PM CDT

Sofia Vergara

I've watched Sofia Vergara on television since her early days and she does speak a very rapid Spanish. I'm sure it's a little exaggerated but not much. I know a couple other people from Colombia and they speak extremely fast.

What is faked is her hair color. She dyes it dark brown/black because Hollywood wants a more stereotypical Latina look from her; ditto for her eyebrows. Sofia's natural color is lighter brown.

"Oh, I thought you meant a specific plan. With maps and stuff." -Buffy

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by: Aspasia @ Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 18:48:17 PM CDT

the R-word

I'm not the one who made the original comment about ableist language, but I gather what this person was referring to is the use of the word "retarded."  This is usually used as an epithet.  Persons with developmental disabilities and their advocates find this word very offensive.  Why not use the word "stupid" if that's what you mean?

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by: Knitting Clio @ Sat Aug 29, 2009 at 08:52:09 AM CDT