Runner Caster Semenya takes gender test -- she is intersexed; MSM reporting is offensive

The sheer ignorance...

Of some of the comments is breathtaking...

Menstrual cycles are not as predictable or as all encompassing as the last two commenters seem to think. I went for years without getting a single period... But I'm definitely not intersexed.

Hormonal balance is quite delicate, just about anything can disrupt it. I'm pretty sure that many female athletes experience irregular or non-existent periods... This means that a menstrual cycle is no true measure of a woman.

As for Caster Semenya, she's not in a very good position if the test results are as the magazine is claiming. In all fairness, she probably should not be allowed to compete with women, since she has a natural excess of testosterone. There are reasons for the ban on the use of hormones in sport, and while she can't help having high levels of testosterone, it really does give her an unfair advantage. :(

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by: Zandilar @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:39:48 PM CDT

But where is the line that makes her advantage 'unfair'?

Do the rules of the sport in which she competes specify a certain level of T in the blood above which one is required to compete with males?

If not, it seems highly unfair to her to subject one of dozens of competitors to a blood test based on her appearance, then exclude her from competing with women whose hormones have not been tested.

For all anyone knows, 75% or more of the top 8 women sprinters in the world could be benefitting from hormone balances outside the expected range for female humans. Maybe that's what makes them the fastest women in the world.

This kid was tested because she doesn't look girly enough, and that's wrong. Test the whole field, or open competition to anyone who identifies as a gender, but this appearance-based testing is unfair.

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:49:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Great points

I wish I could remember who it was on TV, when Caster's story first was reported/ before the calls for testing, that said essentially"who cares; she's got an amazing and rare talent!"

I do remember him saying to the interviewer that (paraphrase) "if I tried to run that fast, I'd be coughing up a kidney within seconds!"

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by: Louise @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:59:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It is sick.

It seems that gender testing is only ever used vindictively by utter losers to subject other athletes to degrading and humiliating medical examination and the release of private medical information.

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by: Narcoleptic_Kitty @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:10:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Worse, it is intentionally misogynistic.

When was the last time a male athlete was tested to prove they were a man?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:43:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good point

It is all about the mighty penis isn't it?

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:01:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

and then, of course, who's penis is mightier.

sigh

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:22:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes and no...

Men are not tested because its not deemed necessary. The men men are competiting at a higher standard. Thus if a female/intersexed person were able to compete at that level there would not be any argument. She would just be considered an exceptional woman.

Becase the standards are "lowered" for women, an added hormonal advantage would definately make a difference.

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by: SciFi Geek @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:18:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

*sigh*

And just why do you think it is that its not deemed necessary, SciFi Geek?

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:28:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Everyone is tested

Everyone's testosterone levels are tested. Including males. It isn't appearance based testing.

What is at question here is arbitrarily setting a particular level as "too high".

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by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 00:16:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

N/A

But she was singled out based on her appearance for additional invasive testing.

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by: Narcoleptic_Kitty @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 01:05:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, that is true.

But they also claim that her testosterone levels were "too high". Assuming that that claim is true, they would have subjected her to invasive additional testing sooner or later, regardless of appearance.

The issue is the very arbitrary way "too high" is set for testosterone levels, especially since in Semenya's case, it is genetic; and the way the IAAF has (badly) (mis)handled the issue.

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by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 02:20:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No...

this is not completely true either. There were questions even before she left South Africa.

Part of the problem is that when anomalies arrose, Athletics South Africa only did a cursory check which did not meet with international standards. ASA passed her on to Berlin without doing all of the necessary testing.

There were questions when she arrived in Berlin. The IAAF initially accepted ASA's confirmation of their own testing but questions lingered.

The REAL problem is not that she was subject to the testing. The real issue was that the questions raised by the initial testing were leaked to the press. THAT is where things get problematic because her competitors complained that she should not have been allowed to compete with other women if there were any doubt about the extent to which she was female.

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by: SciFi Geek @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:24:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Uh,

the world championships weren't the first international competition she is competing in.

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by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:59:26 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hmmm...

I agree with other commenters that Caster's treatment was appalling. It wasn't just that she was singled out, it was also that the press were all over it as well. I can't imagine many situations more humiliating.

However, there should be some standard to hold people to as far as hormones go - artificial hormone therapy is illegal in most sporting competitions because excesses in certain hormones give people gross advantages in some sports (note, I'm talking generalities here - I'm not an expert). All athletes, male and female, should have hormones inside normal medically accepted ranges for their gender and body type (and trust me, those standards already exist, there's nothing arbitrary about it. For example, if a patient's hormone levels are outside the normal range, it tells the doctor something is wrong, and should definitely be looked at).

Personally, I am surprised they hadn't already picked up the higher levels of testosterone already. I doubt she was really singled out due to her appearance - I think other people (*looks at the press*) made it about her appearance. (Of course, if that isn't the case... ugh, what's going on these days?)

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by: Zandilar @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 08:54:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The thing is...

There have clearly been questions about her fo awhile. Both her parrents and friends and neighbors seemed aware that while she was treated as female, she was clearly something other than a traditional woman.

South African athletic authorities just saw her as a potential olympic champ and glossed over all of the questions initially raised.

They probably should have put a stop to this before it ever got this far. However, one could say that ASA's biggest crime is that they gave her a chance to compete when they probably should not have done so.

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by: SciFi Geek @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:30:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why?

Simplist question of all: She obviously is visibily female, and has lived as female her whole life, and has a female gender identity. When she was watched as she peed into cups to test for illegal "doping" drugs (as all Olympic athletes are required to be watched when they pee in the cups), the female genitalia on her body rasised no red flags -- in other words, no external male genitalia. Her condition is a natural condition that thousands of women have. So why is she different, and not allowed to participate as the woman she is?

This particularly comes in to play since in 2004, the IAAF made rules that allow transsexuals to participate in Olympic sports.

Caster is not doping, and she's a woman. If she's not allowed to participate in sports as a woman, then the IAAF is discriminating a natural type of woman. I'll call it as I see it as: predjudice and bias against intersex people who identify as women.

Call me what you will for calling that kind of discrimination evil.


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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:41:30 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Babe Didrikson Zaharias

I hope you do some research on the greatest female athlete who ever lived.

She was probably had some kind of intersex condition. She couldn't have children and was not permitted to adopt for reasons that were never disclosed.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:00:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

The IAAF had already previously allowed her

to compete in other international competitions. The fault lies on them.

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by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:01:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And no, they should't have put a stop to this.

Not without a debate and an explanation.

That it ever got this far is actually a good thing. They don't get to sweep the issue under the carpet and pretend that people like Semenya don't exist.

Society doesn't get to pretend that people like Semenya doesn't exist.

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by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:18:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I completely disagree

However, there should be some standard to hold people to as far as hormones go

Of course, no one should be able to use artificial means to change their hormone balance. That I can agree with. However, people should be allowed to compete with their natural hormones. I don't see a compelling argument to be made that should ban people because they have different hormone levels than the norm when we allow people with different heights or muscle structures than the norm to compete. Seriously, why should she be banned, when Shaq and Tim Duncan can play in the NBA? If we're going to enforce professional athletes to be among human norms, a 7'2" and 6'11" player ought not to be allowed. Of course, banning two gifted athletes like that from playing the sport they love would be wrong. So too would it be for Caster.

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by: RyansTake @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 16:30:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Partial agreement.

I agree that she should be allowed to compete, but in the men's category, where she won't have an unfair advantage over her competitors. This is why we have men's and women's sports, because unlike the genetic advantage that Shaq and Duncan have, the ones separating genetic males from genetic females are easily quantifiable and quite pervasive.

Now, if she had been a genetic female, but with a pituitary tumor or something like that, then it would be a much trickier question. :-)

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by: chaotic-nipple @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 16:45:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Please see ZoeB's comment in this thread.

The IAAF rules, as they are written, allow for intersex women with her alleged condition to participate as women.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 16:52:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We don't have male and female sports, we have men's and women's.

And she's a woman

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 17:34:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe we should

That's bunk. Again, you ignore my point. Why not force Shaq and Tim Duncan to only compete against players 6'10" and above? BTW the "genetic advantage" "seperating" Shaq and Duncan from you and I is "easily quantifiable and quite pervasive" too.

Now, if she had been a genetic female, but with a pituitary tumor or something like that, then it would be a much trickier question.

First, she is "a genetic female." She also has some non female parts inside, but she has the female parts too and outwardly appears female.

Second, getting to your actual quote, what difference does it make? Why would it be a "trickier question?" It would be exactly the same thing. If her hormones are different, she's going to look different. So it's the same in that she'd be the target of bigotry. Furthermore, she'd still have the same exact "advantage" either way. Fact is, her gender is female. She may be intersex and have some inner parts that are genetically a teenie tiny bit different than most females, but she's been raised a female all her life and that's how she identifies.

Forcing her to NOT be a female, by forcing her to compete against males, would be a slap in the face to her. She's not a he. If people even in the GLBT community can't get that, it makes me feel a little sorry for the world. Honestly, I find your point of view on this matter offensive.  

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by: RyansTake @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 22:46:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why not force Shaq and Tim Duncan to compete only against

6'10' players and above?

Because once basketball players get to a certain height, about 6 feet plus, height is no longer such an advantage.

Who is a better player, Duncan or Lebron? What Duncan gains in height and size, he loses in speed, mobility.

Most sports have such built in checks and balances.

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by: rfloh @ Sat Sep 12, 2009 at 00:51:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What?!

You clearly have absolutely no idea about anything about basketball.

How many players are in the NBA at or around 6'0"? Not very many, of that I can assure you.

While you are correct in that height isn't everything, it's very, very important. Shaq was so good because he was athletic enough to play, while 7'2" and absolutely enormous in every other dimension.

Furthermore, your point isn't even a point. My suggestion is that certain genetic traits enable players to be better than the competition, even at the professional level. You pointed out that there are genetic defections which lessen an athlete's ability to compete. How is that in anyway a counterpoint to my argument? It's not. You actually make my point for me, you just didn't realize it.  

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by: RyansTake @ Mon Sep 14, 2009 at 18:27:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Gee

All of that sounds really familiar.

And some folks say that the IS crowd "is treated a little better" than the transsexual crowd..

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:42:24 PM CDT

I would say not

"treated better" its more pitied by the ignorant.  

nothing new at this time.....

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by: Mattkazoo @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 08:41:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

*sigh*

This is not going to be a happy thread.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:43:30 PM CDT

OMFG!

What's the source of this pile of feces below the fold, Pam? I'm about ready to slam this moronic twit into the next century and beyond!

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!

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by: Marlene @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:44:34 PM CDT

link to comments

http://www.nydailynews.com/new...

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:07:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

thanks Pam!

MWAH!

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!

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by: Marlene @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 07:24:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

She is at high risk for cancer

Someone please tell me how the f*ck her natural condition -- which is that of a superb physical athlete -- is deadly?

She probably has internal gonads. They can become cancerous if they are not removed. This is very common.

When they say she has both male and female organs, it means that externally she appears female and that she has traces of male organs internally. Otherwise, they would have known she was intersexed by a simple physical exam.

She doesn't have "undescended TESTICLES" like the Freeper idiot wrote. The gonads can be very undeveloped and look like streaks of tissue. Who knows what her condition is really like except her doctors?

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:49:41 PM CDT

Exactly.

This is why I recently had a genetic sex test done on me that I haven't gotten the results back for yet. Many intersex conditions have secondary health considerations.

These are natural conditions in the natural diversity of human experience, but like many natural conditions involving genes and chromosomes, consequences of these natural variances can have health considerations.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:59:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Doesn't show up on x-rays

People need to understand that, too.

It is possible to live your entire life and never know that you're intersexed. The only way to find out is to go through testing -- which is far from a routine medical examination.

Some people find out when they have surgery and doctor actually sees the tissue. Sadly, it is often cancer surgery.

We don't really know how many people have conditions like this. A very small percentage of the population is tested.

A big, macho guy could be reading this right now and have traces of ovaries inside of him.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:18:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Even more intersting:

An extremely macho person could, right now, have a uterus inclusive with cervix, and no vagina, along with a fully functional testicular and wolffian system.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:42:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you are so correct.

  I went through the testing that Autumn is going through and I know my results.  I was asked to undergo more tests, and said hell NO.  

 When my SRS was done, there was a split where the vasdeferines lead too.  Nothing to note when I still had my testicles that they lead to.  Only to find what could be undeveloped ovaries.

 Who knows what the cause of this is, but I have said they can find out when I am dead.  

 I know three other people who have had the same discoveries when SRS is done and it explains a whole lot.  But I don't want my life lived under a complete microscope.

 It goes with a belief I have, trust what I tell you.  Just because I am different, don't make me prove it.  When Trust is lost, then everything goes to Shit.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:02:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

grrrr...

Actually the condition as described is 46XY CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivy Syndrome). Its more common than many think due to those affected appearing female.

'Internal Gonads' are very typically ARE undesended testicles. They typically ARE removed due to an age old myth that they become cancerous. They have the same odds of any man's testicles becoming cancerous. Its just about impossible to palpate a testicle that's buried that deep and so its far harder to determine if a testicle is cancerous or not.

The main reason to remove the testicles is so the girl/young woman doesn't masculinize into a MAN.

I've had two coworkers while in the Navy that were 46XY CAIS. I've had one freind since I left the Navy that is 46XY CAIS. Of all three only 1 didn't have her testi's removed and only she managed to sire a child.

Oh, and I'm IS too. I could be wrong, but I know I'm more right than wrong.  

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by: Gina9223 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:50:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

MSM...ugh

I hated that they even brought the story up.

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by: PurpleLove08 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:56:37 PM CDT

Misinformation

The athletics governing body is also expected to advise her to have surgery to fix the potentially deadly condition,

They had better not be saying what I think they're saying.  But, as Fritz said, there can be complications.  But -- you have to think of what the average Joe is going to think after reading that.  They're going to think it's deadly to be intersexed.

Yeah... those comments pissed me off royally.

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by: flyerfier @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 19:58:17 PM CDT

Just stating that she can be "fixed" through surgery

is such an oversimplification.

Testosterone is needed by the body. It is produced in both males and females.

If they remove the gonads and her ovaries are not producing the hormone, or she is not as sensitive to smaller amounts of it like a typical female, she could end up with serious health problems. Weight problems, osteoporosis, low sex drive, depression.

Surgery could end up giving her more problems than she started out with. She could end up having to take hormones for the rest of her life -- also a cancer risk.

The concept of "fixing" her by cutting out the tissue that people assume doesn't belong is very wrong. This is a complicated medical condition.

The fact is that we don't have the technology to "fix" these conditions. We're not even close.

They're going to think it's deadly to be intersexed.

It is potentially deadly to have breasts, ovaries, testes, a prostate gland...fact of life.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:36:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, hormone replacement is necessary post-surgery, but

depending on the situation, surgery plus lifetime hormone replacement may pose fewer risks overall than leaving the Y-containing abdominal gonad in the patient. If a choice is made to leave the Y-containing abdominal gonad in, it would be prudent to image it by ultrasound on a regular basis.

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by: NancyP @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:43:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

deadly

For that matter, life is deadly--at least we all seem to end up dead.

It may be the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others.

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by: sandushinka @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:55:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Medical fact vs fiction, by one who teaches doctors

To state the obvious: intersex per se is not deadly.

Undescended testicles CAN (not MUST) be deadly, since they are more prone to germ cell cancer (seminoma, mixed germ cell tumor, choriocarcinoma, embryonal carcinoma, immature teratoma, yolk sac tumor, etc). Some germ cell cancers can metastasize to abdominal lymph nodes and to lungs, brain, etc. Tumors containing a component of choriocarcinoma are particularly risky, as the metastatic tumor often goes to brain and is highly prone to spontaneous bleeding, which like other bleeding in the brain, can have fatal effect. A lot of germ cell tumors are curable, particularly if still confined to the testicle, but even metastatic tumors can be treated successfully - for example, Lance Armstrong. Some people do die of testicular germ cell cancer, though far fewer than in past years before the advent of generally effective chemotherapy.

The surgery that the athletic federation is talking about is removal of the undescended testicles, as a prophylactic measure. Undescended testicles in adults have no capacity to make fertile ejaculate, since there is poor or no maturation of germ cells (sperm precursors), and there is usually a drastic (greater than a thousand-fold) reduction in the NUMBER of germ cells. These undescended testicles usually have plenty of testosterone-producing cells (these are different from germ cells) in non-intersex men.

There are a few specific types of intersex that bear significant risk through other mechanisms. I am quite sure that the athletic federation doesn't have a clue about these other rare conditions (eg, more severe forms of salt-losing congenital adrenal hyperplasia, caused by mutation of an enzyme that is necessary both for production of sex steroids and for production of aldosterone, a steroid regulator of kidney sodium (salt) uptake. Severe forms of this condition manifest in early childhood.).

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by: NancyP @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:22:35 PM CDT

P.S. gonads in Y-chromosome-possessing intersex individuals

Fritz is right that not all Y-chromosome-possessing intersex people have gonads resembling ordinary testicles. However, even if the gonads are "streak gonads" (tiny fibrous-appearing tissue) or combination of "streak" areas and undeveloped testicle-like or ovo-testis-like (both follicles and tubules), there is a significant risk of developing germ cell cancer. "Complete" androgen insensitivity syndrome has ~ 8% lifetime risk of developing gonad cancer.

No Y chromosome genetic material, generally no increased risk of gonadal germ cell cancer.  

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by: NancyP @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:36:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Even supposedly-typical males

can be at risk for germ-cell cancers, of course -- it's what killed my father.  I guess Murphy's Law would tell us that some women have to deal with the same risk.

But yeah, the news report is full of fail -- but Caster Semenya rocks.

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by: M @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:55:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And yes...someone went THERE

A recent comment to the story:

I knew it. Tha't why they beat Whites in all sports.

There are a lot of snarky resposnes to this I'd like to make - particularly after the insanity of last night.  Should I invoke Joe Wilson?  Strom Thurmond?  Or a racist-republican-to-be-named-later?

No...

I think that that comment deserves to stand - and fester - on its own (non)merits.

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:24:52 PM CDT

Offline...

...I was mentioning to my beer baristas that Caster is a Black African, and we can be assured that will come into play.

It's a sad commentary on human inhumanity of to say that Caster's skin color is going to figure in a part of this story. And, as you just pointed out Kat, that comment is in the mix. It's likely one of many comments we we'll likely see regarding Caster's skin color in the near future.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:57:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

why are we "defining" caster semenya?

she self defines as a woman.
that makes her a woman.
she does not self define as intersexed.
there is not even the xx vs xy test results yet.
(if it matters)
if a person can be born xy,have a male body and be a woman,
why are we defining caster, a woman with a vagina(if it matters)no uterus, and unknown "testes/tissue", etc.
caster says she is a woman. this is all we need to know.
this WHOLE THING is horribly insensitive to her.

(and before anyone says she doesn't like dresses, and likes sports etc, that applies to LESBIAN WOMEN sometimes too!)

LOTS of people owe this WOMAN an apology....

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by: javier000000 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 20:51:23 PM CDT

Amen

Regardless of what any tests say, she is a woman. And if fellow women feel disgusted that she shares the same label as them (as if labels were a good thing? Ergh), they may as well question why they continue to label themselves 'human'.

That said, she really ought to be damn proud she made it this far, not just because of her medal but also because she remains standing despite the media flak.

"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion, you must set yourself on fire!"

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by: Reiuji @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:01:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We need fewer labels

Many people -- even the most conservative -- say that they want to live in a world where individual freedoms rise above everything else.

Yet, we continually try to place people into various categories.

Race, gender, sexual orientation, class, religion -- there are so many labels and every one of them can be used to strip of us of our individuality.  

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

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by: Fritz @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:18:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fine, she's a woman.

Doesn't change the fact that being a genetic male gives her an unfair advantage over her competitors.

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by: chaotic-nipple @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 16:48:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Excuse me?

Are you now the final arbiter?

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 16:53:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Zactly.

Her sex and gender identity is being defined for her.

Most of us would be horrified to have our sex and gender playing out in the media like she is having her's discussed in the media.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:11:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

autumn

any chance of YOU weighing in on this,
as a woman?
from the T community?
a new blog-posting would be pretty great re this......
(personally, i'm ready)
-j

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by: javier000000 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:22:09 PM CDT

"Runner is a 'hermaphrodite'..."

Drudge being Drudge.

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by: dstavro @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:24:22 PM CDT

They used...

'hermaphrodite' - seriously.. they used THAT word. I didn't bother with the comments below the fold.  

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by: rioTgirl @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:32:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you think that's bad

I wouldn't go to the paper's website then.... the ignorance, rudeness, and utter stupidity's rampant!

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!

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by: Marlene @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 08:54:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

excuse me?

I just put up a diary entry on the word hermaphrodite. "That" word is not an insult unless you insist on seeing my own birth as monstrous somehow.  

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by: CathrynP @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:01:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Cathryn

I read your diary and I am very sorry that my ignorance unintentionally erased you. I was angry at the story for using "hermaphrodite" - a term I have learned is insulting to IS people.

I do not believe that your birth was monstrous, and I am very sorry that was the impression I gave.

---

by: rioTgirl @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:18:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

even Intersexed people sometimes need education on this..

For the majority of intersexed people the term hermaphrodite is inaccurate, mistaken.  For those of us it is accurate for, hearing others claim it is also an insult is demeaning.  Cheryl Chase was one of those who denied people like me existed, for that reason I never got involved in intersex activism having had enough bad experiences with trans activism.

For the record, one of my close friends has the exact same condition, so I'd even question just how rare we actually are.

---

by: CathrynP @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 13:17:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks again

The way you explained it in your diary made it so clear that it should have been obvious. I'm sorry again for my unintended erasure and any pain or anger I may have caused or triggered.  

---

by: rioTgirl @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 20:12:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

autumn,this is an educating moment

it IS  kinda  the 'ground zero' of the gender argument......

---

by: javier000000 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:26:20 PM CDT

And a minefield of its own.

30,000 and counting variants, 6 major categories, two major groups and a whole crapload of bad blood in multiple directions.

The big group at present is OII, and the former big group is ISNA with a reputation for having sold out.

It combines people who are perceived as opponents of the trans community, issues of appropriation, and more. Truly, stepping here is dangerous outside of basic reporting and support for her.

The IS community is not happy about this, in any way, shape, or form.  Some of the biggest issues presently are in identifying from the description available the nature.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:40:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OII is trans-friendly

Worldwide, Intersex movements are becoming more so, due to the increasing evidence that TS is caused by an IS condition.

And because of a certain commonality of interest between IS and TS groups - though this has led to a most unfortunate divorce from TG groups.

There's plenty of scope for bad blood. But there's now enough people of goodwill on all sides, TS, IS, TG - and a recognition that although we're different from each other, as well as GLB, that we all suffer the same thing in different forms. Bigotry.

Only IS and TS people have medical issues though because of that. Surgery without consent, or no surgery with. Two sides of the same coin.

Gays no longer get castrated, and lesbians no longer get their ovaries destroyed by X-rays, so their concerns are a little different these days, and frankly, not quite as extreme by any objective test. That's not to say that they're not important - but as I said, no-one's getting the same treatment as Alan Turing now. If they were doing, I think concerns such as marriage and even employment might take second place in the eyes of GLBs.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

---

by: ZoeB @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 09:17:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why are swimmers are allowed to win medals with size 16 feet!

The gender/sex spectrum is complex. A few individuals do not fit comfortably into what we think of as typically male or female. For a variety of reasons, one in 100 or so babies is born with some kind of sex differentiation anomaly. This could be, for instance, because the pregnant mother has additional hormones in her system, which she has absorbed from, say, medication or the environment, and which she has passed on to the fetus, or the fetus, itself, may be insensitive to the influence of certain hormones. Occasionally, sex/gender anomalies may be associated with unusual chromosomal patterns, for instance, 47,XXY, 47,XYY, 45,XO, 49,XXXYY, or even a mosaic (more than one chromosome pattern in different tissues of one individual). The possible permutations are numerous.

Bolt gains a advantage by having longer legs.
Felts gains a advantage with his abnormally large feet.

Both of these athletes are allowed to compete, despite the genetic advantage the have.  

Love who you are on the inside and the outside will follow.

---

by: Abi Christopher @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:47:58 PM CDT

Money

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:50:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"This could be, for instance, because the pregnant mother..."

Or, it could be one of the reasons why human beings have been so successful as a species.

I believe in natural selection. The gender/sex spectum evolved in human beings for a reason. Perhaps it is something that has outlived its usefulness and perhaps not.

I keep telling people who think that a genetic cure for such things would be great that such a cure could actually end up making us go extinct.

Human beings thrive due to our diversity. Take that away and perhaps we won't be as succusssful in the future.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:09:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Variety is the spice of life

Its the same genetic diversity that gives us blue eyes, blonde hair (non bottled) and many different skin tones.  Without it we would all still be single cell organisms floating around the oceans of the world.

Love who you are on the inside and the outside will follow.

---

by: Abi Christopher @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:40:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with your general point.

Just nitpicking that Bolt's long legs are a disadvantage at the start.

If longer legs were really much of an advantage in sprinting, then every elite sprinter would be Bolt's height, instead of Bolt being the exception.

---

by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 00:32:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

yes dyss but

SHE says she is a woman!
caster has the right to SELF DETERMINE!
this is sick.
is she going to be brow beaten into redefining herself as more fem?
as IS?
what is next?
this is beyond disturbing.
SHE does not say genderqueer.
she does not say anything but "woman"
she owns HERSELF.
this is becoming a tragedy.
j

---

by: javier000000 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:51:30 PM CDT

I hope not, javier.

I agree, she does have the right to self determine.

But she competes in a business governed by people who punish women who perform beyond their expectations, their narrow definition of what women can and cannot be capable of.  This isn't about her anymore -- its about them, and the idea of "fair" as perceived by people who have no clue what its like to be humiliated like this.

It is heteronormativity -- the "you must be like us" rule that says a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

I agree, with all of it.

But the discussion is not one that can be had safely.

Barring those who get maligned such as she, most folks with IS are loathe to discuss such things.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:57:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

this person has it right

from TBP:

"From what I've just read she is a 46XY CAIS Female.
She has female gentaila and un desended testicles. For this to hit the wire prior to her being informed and counsled by a well qualified therapist is B.S. It can be severaly damaging to this young woman..."
-Gina9223"

"she,WOMAN, female"

caster has rights. not T rights.
human rights.
jesus.  

---

by: javier000000 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 21:59:37 PM CDT

Again, Zactly.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:16:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

dyss, i for one am on the side of human rights

and this means you, humans!
but seriously,
dyss,
FEEL safe.
if we can't discuss it, we're screwed.
alot have your back...
i know some people are on your tits here,but that is wrong, and most people know it.(grumpy old man syndrome or something.lol)
i don't care what groups "want" !
she owns her identity.
please discuss it!
how 'bout a diary here?
i'm trying to get autumn to add her two cents.
this topic is IT.
the it of the it.

fyi:
my mom is (adoptive) of me and 81! and beautiful and liberal and not grumpy.i'm not ageist,i "crushed" on my vet, he was gorgeous, and 70,so i'm just KIDDING....
but he was married lol.

ah life.
ps so off topic, but your hair is very beautiful.
yah i can concentrate lol

---

by: javier000000 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:11:51 PM CDT

Thank you

And it would be nice to feel safe.

But no.  Fritz is doing a good job, and when I let loose my passion, I tend to be very active.

As it is, I'm having to hold back right now.

And that's on top of already having to hold back.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:24:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

autumn

more more
lol

---

by: javier000000 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:14:57 PM CDT

Working on a post on this story (with a bit of Intersex 101)...

...with Curtis Hinkle, the founder of Organisation Intersex International, (OII). We should have a thoughtful piece up early next week from a commonality perspective -- of trans person me and intersex person Curtis -- both of us of some note in our respective communities.

I promise we'll try to make that piece interesting. :)

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:23:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks Autumn

I am learning so much from you and appreciate all of the informative posts regarding intersex et al...

I did take your advice though and stopped reading the sick comment posts following the depraved article but I did read the first line of the first post and even that was too much.

You and Caster are my heros as you continue to persevere in spite of all the adversity.  Keep on. Thanks again...

My personal best,

xoxo

Vanhattan

vanhattan

---

by: vanhattan @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:29:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can't wait!

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:53:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Michael Phelps has a "genetic advantage"

Where do we draw the line?

According to some estimates, Phelps' lung capacity is twice that of the average human being -- 12 liters rather than six.

Michael Phelps' superior lung capacity that is due entirely to genetics. The average person can practice swimming just as hard and yet will never achieve his level of performance.

Lance Armstrong has a similar genetic advantage.

So, if we could test for the genes that gives these athletes an advantage over "normal" people, should they be banned from competition?

Is it fair that Phelps' and Armstrong have a genetic advantage?

How is being born intersex any different from being born with the lung capacity gene?

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:20:46 PM CDT

Just nitpicking, by definition, EVERY elite athlete

has a "genetic advantage" over the general population at what they do. You don't get to compete at the Olympics, at the Tour de France, in MLB, in the NFL, in the NBA, ATP, WTA, etc, without having an advantage over the average human.

Comparing Phelps or Armstrong to the average person is a false comparison.  

---

by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 00:28:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Huh?

Comparing Phelps or Armstrong to the average person is a false comparison.  

I'm comparing Caster Semenya to Phelps and Armstrong.

Get it?

Why is her "genetic advantage" considered to be unfair and those of Phelps and Armstrong simply considered being an elite athlete?

If we ban those who are intersex from competition, why not ban others who have a genetic difference from the norm?

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 05:41:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Every single cyclist competing in the Tour de France

has a genetic advantage over the average person. ALL OF THEM. Not just Armstrong.

Every single swimmer competing against Phelps in the Olympics has a genetic advantage over the average person. Not just Phelps.

You need to compare Armstrong or Phelps, to the people they are competing against. Not the average person.

Put another way, this is what I am saying:

Semenya:the people she beat::Phelps:the people he beat

What you are doing is:
Semenya:the people she beat::Phelps:the whole world.

I am not saying that Semenya's advantage is unfair. Simply that you need to compare Semenya to the people she is competing against, and Phelps to the people he is competing against, if you want to compare genetic advantage.

---

by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 09:46:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Every single swimmer competing against Phelps..."

That's not true.

Phelps and Armstrong have a genetic advantage over other athletes in their sports.

Both have been tested to have lung capacities that are twice that of the average person. Many of their competitors don't come close to that. They may have increased their performance through practice and training, but they do not have the ability to take in 12 liters of air.

There have always been athletes who have an ability greater than the average person they are competing against.

If we made sure that everyone was equal, we would not have any records broken.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:17:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What I said

Every single swimmer competing against Phelps in the Olympics has a genetic advantage over the average person.

In case you have problem with reading comprehension, here is s simplification:

Olympics Swimmers', including Michael Phelps, genetic ability >>>>>>> average person's genetic ability.

Both have been tested to have lung capacities that are twice that of the average person. Many of their competitors don't come close to that

Yes. Which is why you compare them to their competitors. Not the average person.

Phelps and Armstrong have a genetic advantage over other athletes in their sports.

So compare Phelps and Armstrong to other athletes in their sports. Stop comparing them to the average person. They aren't competing against the average person.

If we made sure that everyone was equal, we would not have any records broken.

I have absolutely no desire to make sure everyone is equal. In any manner.

---

by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:12:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ok, now,if someone defines her as INTERSEX

does that conflict with her defining as a woman?
if that were the case,
then i can't be cool with that.
not as T. just as a LIBERAL.
but....

0000
    0
     0
(ok dyss ball is softly restrainedly lobbed to you
gently....)
what is the answer?

000
   0
      0
(smile?)

---

by: javier000000 @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 22:56:02 PM CDT

Um...

IS is not generally considered an identity class by those who are IS.

It is not T, but to discuss it will require being able to discuss the same social issues that surround T.

You aren't the problem, Javier, it is not a personal issue.

She can define herself any way she wishes to do so.  My understanding is she defines and identifies herself as a woman.

The reason why she is being so grossly disrespected and maligned is what is the problem.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 23:57:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Caster throws a wrench into Dobson's and Sheldon's bathroom theory

OK. So which bathroom is Caster supposed to use in the limited worldview of the fundie bathroom bill screechers? Intersexed individuals aren't even on their radar.

I suppose they are supposed to wear diapers since Lou and Daddy D can do a personal inspection.

This proves the right is morally bankrupt on these kinds of issues; their limited thinking of gender and sexual orientation is so pitiful, that when it's married with hate, their arguments fall completely flat.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 23:14:38 PM CDT

And who will she be allowed to marry, in the Dobson sex and gender model?

...Men? Women? No one? How do they define Caster, given their narrow interpretation of Genesis 1:26-27?

To quote Eric Vilian (chief of medical genetics at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA) from a 2004 article for the Los Angeles Times:

Sex should be easily definable, but it's not. Our gender identity our profound sense of being male or female is independent from our anatomy. A constitutional amendment authorizing marriages only between men and women would not only discriminate against millions of Americans who do not fit easily in the mold of each category, but would simply be flawed and contrary to basic biological realities.

-----
~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

---

by: Autumn Sandeen @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 11:52:56 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Anyone catch this in the Guardian article?

The results of a controversial gender test on the South African athlete Caster Semenya have been received by international athletics officials but will only be made public after [...] Semenya has been informed, according to reports.

That's right, it hit the news before it got to her. Whoever leaked ought to be dragged out into the streets and shot. Learning you're going to be ground zero for half the planet's bigotry is bad enough; reading it in the newspaper is just... Ugh.

---

by: Nentuaby @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 23:17:36 PM CDT

Tar and feathering

With very hot tar.

---

by: 10amla @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 00:44:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

how race is popping up

I also said this offline...

Looking at some of the comments, aside from the issue of Caster being intersexed, note the slurs against her for a lack of traditional European features - and her short natural hair in cornrows. Black women in general are seen as non gender compliant and butch when wearing either of those styles if they are short.  Caster has the double whammy of also having a very muscular body. Honestly, think of the Williams sisters. They wouldn't look all that different if they wore short naturals and didn't dress femmy. I think they are well aware that their physiques already call into question their femininity and that's why they both favor femware off court and even on court, and wear their hair in relaxed, long styles. Even as young women they wore long cornrows.

So this story is as much about gender expression and presentation as intersexuality. Caster's choice to be herself is causing a problem for parts of society that can only see gender "properly assigned" with certainty.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Thu Sep 10, 2009 at 23:28:05 PM CDT

Exactly

Issues include:

Cultural (application of western cultural mores and expectations, inclusive of the thoughts around her being IS)
Expression
Gender or Social sex role
Privileges (good lord the number is astounding)
Race

Its immense.

All in the name of describing someone as what they are not.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

---

by: dyssonance @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 00:03:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

In sports

As long as you feel a difference between male and female athelets in national and international sports; you do have to have a consistant critera.  I have no idea what it is, especially with the IS community.

I'm kinda new here, though my limited biology training thinks that there's more IS(in some form) out there.

They need to sort it out, if they still want to keep  M/F teams.

I'm here to learn.

My step-daughter was on birth-control for years; for not reasons for the sex thing.

The wife was hormones for a while too.

How do we know what sex Caster is?

---

by: 10amla @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 01:11:26 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sigh

After reading those comments on the NY Daily News site I'm more convinced than ever that comprehensive sex education is absolutely necessary in our schools.  Being uneducated is one thing -- being intentionally ignorant is quite another.  It galls me that so many people could spout off on a subject they know nothing about and judge others in such a way...even though I see it happening every day.  I have to wonder who taught these people to be so openly judgmental -- their parents?  Church?  School?  And what would it take to teach our kids real tolerance for others?

---

by: BobbiCW @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 00:45:20 AM CDT

whether IS conflicts with the ID "woman"

or not, now people are sayimg "she's not a woman, she's INTERSEXED"
ya know?

---

by: javier000000 @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 01:31:28 AM CDT

The RadFems of MichFest would agree.

Seriously. So would the Vancouver Women's Collective, whose "women only" pharmacy excludes intersexed and trans women.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

---

by: ZoeB @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 09:21:41 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Would they?

When faced with issues of intersexuality rad-fems often revert to a position of sex/gender of raising.......Castor was raised female, socialized female, born with external female genitals.

---

by: CathrynP @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:11:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

it's a brutal world out there

I don't hold out much hope that the sane and rational decision will hold out, that she be allowed to keep her awards and continue to compete. No one says we should strip Shaq's NBA title rings because he had the audacity to be born really tall. We can't help the way we're born, we shouldn't be punished for it, whether those conditions improve our athletic prowess or not. And, for the record, I don't think a compelling case can be made that it at all is the reason she's done so well -- such a declaration would be the ultimate insult to all the countless time she's spent in her life training and competing to get where she is today.  

---

by: RyansTake @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 04:04:40 AM CDT

Unfair advantage?

From a competition standpoint in sports, if she has an unfair advantage because of her gender or sex, then that is not fair to the non-intersexed female athletes with whom this individual is competing.

I had the same criticism in 2006, when the Gay Games were in Chicago.  Some of the gay men, presumably due to HIV, were taking steroids, and had the classic "roid" look, bulked up and all muscle.  As expected, the left-wing nutjobs tried to defend this as a special case. Those men had an unfair advantage over other men who were not on steroids (regardless of their HIV status).

Discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression should be banned.

But it cannot be used in a way that provides an unfair advantage in a competitive arena, such as sports. And no, non-discrimination laws do NOT apply here. (The fact that she presents as female means nothing-- it's the physiological and hormonal aspects that matter here.)

Through no fault of her own, she has an unfair advantage over the other athletes. Nevertheless, it is still an unfair advantage and she should not be allowed to compete with non-intersexed females.

(And yes, I expect the usual handful of loons here will immediately go into victim mode and whine and call it bigotry. Hey, create an intersexed category in sports.)

---

by: JJ in Chicago @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 07:59:47 AM CDT

What about a basketball player or wrestler with giantism?

This woman is a foot and half taller than the average female player.

What's the difference?

No one ever seems to have a problem with these athletes. In fact, they are celebrated. This is especially true of the male athletes.

It only becomes a problem when women are viewed as being too masculine.

No one ever cries foul when a male athlete appears to be too feminine. That would be an advantage in some sports that involve grace and flexibility.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 08:37:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Amateur wrestling has weight classes.

And no, professional wrestling isn't a sport.

Not to mention that the nature of amateur / real wrestling, and basketball is such that advantages that come with gigantism come with disadvantages too.

What a 7 footer gains over a 6 footer in size and strength, s/he loses in mobility. Not to mention that the absolute forces that the much bigger player subjects his / her body to when running or jumping might increase the likelihood injury. Once you get to a certain height, the height difference is no longer an advantage.

It only becomes a problem when women are viewed as being too masculine.

This is certainly a big part of the issue. It isn't the only part.

The beneficial effects of testosterone on athletic performance are the other part.

No one ever cries foul when a male athlete appears to be too feminine. That would be an advantage in some sports that involve grace and flexibility.

Why do you think appearing "feminine" means that an athlete is more flexible?

Appearing "feminine" has nothing to do with flexibility.

 

---

by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:03:35 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wow! I give up

When people start telling me what I think, I give up.

Why do you think appearing "feminine" means that an athlete is more flexible?

Seriously. You win. You're a mind reader. You can go by what I'm thinking rahter than what I write.

Congratulations.

I won't bother to bring up figure skaters or ballet dancers, or other female athletes who use grace and flexibility rather than brute strength. You'll just read my mind again and tell me what I really meant.

When you look for the bad in mankind, expecting to find it, you surely will.

- Abraham Lincoln.

---

by: Fritz @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 10:23:56 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

From your post,

No one ever cries foul when a male athlete appears to be too feminine. That would be an advantage in some sports that involve grace and flexibility.

So, what are you saying here? That a "feminine" appearing male athlete is more flexible?

I won't bother to bring up figure skaters or ballet dancers, or other female athletes who use grace and flexibility rather than brute strength. You'll just read my mind again and tell me what I really meant.

Which is evidence for what? Do you have any freaking idea of the kind of flexibility training that female gymnasts, female ballet dancers, female figure skaters have to undergo? FOR YEARS. FROM CHILDHOOD.

The flexibility training is EXTREMELY painful. To the point of causing tears. To the point that many female gymnasts often develope serious joint problems by the time they reach their lates 20s / early 30s.

The flexibility and grace you see from gymnasts, figure skaters, dancers, isn't a result of being "feminine". It is a result of many years of painful training.

Learn a bit about sports science before you spout off.

---

by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:07:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Also, I suggest you maybe go to the weight room

with a serious competitive female figure skater one of these days.

You will find that that tiny little figure skater is STRONG. Yes, brute strength.

---

by: rfloh @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:21:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

horrible rationalization

Track has no weight classes. If there were different weight classes, then maybe you'd have a point. As it stands, though, your argument is a straw man.  

---

by: RyansTake @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 16:57:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually track does have weight classes

Implicitly, not explicitly. Just like basketball.

Look at Semenya and the women she was competing against. Notice that everyone is pretty much the same size? Do you see a 7 footer running in track? Do you see 250 pounders running in track? No? Why not?

Because in track, when you run, you have to move your bodyweight. Because long long legs can get in the way, in the sprints at least. Whatever advantages you gain in height and size, you lose in having to do more work moving your body.

Notice that most athletes in most sports tend to have pretty similar bodytypes? High jumpers for example, all all slim, tall, and long-legged. Male basketball players are all around slightly over 6 feet to slight over 7 feet. Most sprinters are muscular and not very tall.

Not to mention that you might want to look up the meaning of straw man. My argument regarding weight classes in wrestling was in direct response to a claim about size and height in wrestling.  

---

by: rfloh @ Sat Sep 12, 2009 at 01:01:26 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, track has limits

not weight classes, which is MY POINT. We don't mind that we eliminate people in sports because their bodies aren't able to do it well. We don't mind elevating and practically worshipping people because they have the perfect body types to compete at a certain event that enables them to be better than the competition, in some part regardless of how hard one actually works to get there. The only time people have had a "problem" with these natural advantages in the history of sports (at least that I'm aware of, though I'm aware of a lot) is when intersexed players are involved. Otherwise, it's always fine... 100% of the time.

---

by: RyansTake @ Mon Sep 14, 2009 at 18:31:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Unfair advantage! Ban Phelps!

---

by: Nentuaby @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:45:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

BS

Let's ban Shaq from the NBA too, because his body gives him an unfair advantage compared to all the other players in the NBA. She's not doping. She's not doing anything that isn't natural. She is who she was born and has been female her entire life. If she's banned or has her awards stripped, it's bigotry, pure and simple. There are dozens of athletes who have natural gifts that enable them to be better than the competition so long as their body holds out. Shaq was that player for a decade or more -- his natural talent, coming straight from his DNA, was literally unfair for the rest of the NBA, who had no way to effectively defend against him.

You could say the same thing about a Randy Moss in the NFL: there has never been a player as tall, as fast and with hand-eye coordination as good as Randy Moss playing the WR position. You could look at a Kevin Youkilis who naturally has eyesight far better than 20-20, which in great part accounts for why he routinely has an on-base percentage among the tops in all of baseball. He simply sees the ball better than perhaps any other player in the game, because his eyes just work better.

There have always been and will always be some professional athletes who have physical gifts that make them far and away better than the competition. In some ways that's unfair for the competition: it doesn't matter how much they practice or train or how hard they try, they will never be as good as the physically gifted dominant player of their sport.

We, as a society, completely accept that. Not only do we accept it, we typically hold these particular athletes up as heroes, buying their sports gear, paying hundreds to see them in person and up to thousands for their sports memorabilia. We worship at their feet. Until, of course, one of these athletes is found to be intersex, then we try to kick her out of sports. Does Caster have a natural advantage? Yes. But it's no greater than Shaq's natural advantage or Michael Phelp's lung capacity that is double what it 'should' be.

If we deem Caster unfit to play because she's not "normal" we should ban anyone else in sports who's not normal either. Hey, I'm up for watching a bunch of Dustin Pedrioas in every sport, too, but we've got to be consistent -- or we've got to openly admit the bigotry that leads to these decisions and double standards.  

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by: RyansTake @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 16:54:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have always said that the general public are ignorant about

sexual issues.  That is why I have always applauded people like Dr. Ruth Westheimer, who try to educate the public on the variations of sexual beings and sexuality.  It's too bad this doesn't happen in the third grade and give everyone a good jolt of their own prejudice.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.-- Thomas Jefferson

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by: Mykelb @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 08:34:52 AM CDT

A Teachable Moment

Here's a fragment I've been cutting-and-pasting in various places on the internet, in the belly of the beast, as it were. The facts are relevant here on Pam's, as there's ignorance aplenty, but not the malice, thank goodness.

   If the reports are correct, Ms Semanya has PAIS-6. Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome grade 6, where grade 7 is Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS).

   What this means is that she's almost completely immune to testosterone and other androgens. "Almost", but not quite completely. If she'd had CAIS, she'd be ultra-feminine, more so than standard factory model women. It's an open secret that most of the supermodels who don't have children have CAIS, as did Miss Teen USA 1991.

   From the Internation Amateur Atletics Association rules on the subject :

       

(The crux of the matter is that the athlete should not be enjoying the benefits of natural testosterone predominance normally seen in a male)

       6. Conditions that should be allowed:- Androgen insensitivity syndrome (Complete or almost complete - previously called testicular feminization);- Gonadal dysgenesis (gonads should be removed surgically to avoid malignancy);- Turner's syndrome.

       (b) Those conditions that may accord some advantages but nevertheless acceptable:- Congenital adrenal hyperplasia;- Androgen producing tumors;- Anovulatory androgen excess (polycystic ovary syndrome).

   Unlike other women, she cannot get the full performance benefits of testosterone, since she's almost immune to the stuff. Having three times the female average could well be less effective when it comes to building muscle mass than a normal amount in an average women. Many female athletes have high natural levels of testosterone anyway - though still a third or less of an average male, and a tenth of a male athlete.

   As regards the "dangerous condition" of internal testes, the danger isn't exactly immediate. There's a tenfold normal risk of cancer, and it would be wise to have 6-monthly checks, and gonadectomy if any pre-cancerous lesions are found, but that's it. At worst, 1 in 50, and the estrogen, the female sex hormone also produced by the testes, is useful for preventing oteopyrosis and other conditions, so it's swings and roundabouts. The real reason for gonadectomy is to stop other people from being upset about the idea of a woman with testes in her body.

   I've stated the IAAA's policy - but that policy is not always followed. The Indian athlete Santhi Soundarajan had CAIS, but was stripped of her medals by Indian authorities, not because she had an advantage, but purely for being Intersexed, a sub-human. She attempted suicide shortly thereafter, as Ms Semanya may do.

   She's an 18 year old girl from a backwoods African rural village who has given her all to become a world-class athlete. Now she's had the double blow of being told she'll never be able to have children, and having her life and ambitions shattered by a global surge of ignorant bigotry.

   Some of which is apparent in these comments.(actually no, not at Pam's...)

   Oh yes, I'm Intersexed too. I'm also 51, a middle-aged woman old enough to be a grandma, and used to this kind of thing. She's only a teenage girl. Some here forget that. (Present company excepted - PHB is alas, atypical)

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

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by: ZoeB @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 09:25:13 AM CDT

Actually, yes, here.

Zoe, you know I'm from the old, old ISNA school (damn me to hell, lol). And ya know something else, too lol

I have to disagree -- there is indeed a great deal of ignorant bigotry.

Four examples from just this thread:

They probably should have put a stop to this before it ever got this far.

All athletes, male and female, should have hormones inside normal medically accepted ranges for their gender and body type

In all fairness, she probably should not be allowed to compete with women, since she has a natural excess of testosterone.

Through no fault of her own, she has an unfair advantage over the other athletes. Nevertheless, it is still an unfair advantage and she should not be allowed to compete with non-intersexed females.

Now, as one of the "

usual handful of loons here

", as one of them put it, I've stepped out of things because I already knew this subject was not one that can safely be discussed here.

Its all about heteronormativity in Sex for a lot of them.

Thankfully, those are the only one's I've seen thus far.  The rest have been really good.

And agreed to your response to me.  Won't go into more detail, because I just don't want to get into it with the others.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 12:43:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Even the BBC didn't get this right.

I first saw this on the BBC's Red Buttom sports coverage...fortunately they didn't include the hermaphrodite. But they did something which I think is also stupid and said she had an intergender condition.

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by: ShadedSpriter @ Fri Sep 11, 2009 at 17:56:14 PM CDT