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California redux

WHERE is No on 1's response ad? IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN RECORDED WEEKS AGO IN ANTICIPATION OF THE "SAVE OUR CHILDREN MESSAGE" THAT HAS WORKED FROM ANITA BRYANT THROUGH PROP 8 [REGARDLESS OF WHO THE HOMOHATERS MIGHT GET TO DELIVER IT].

Throwing money at a campaign that ONLY addresses "fairness" is money thrown away. I gave nearly a $1000 to No on 8 which was a lot for me. Sorry, I won't give any money to No on 1 until I see what they're spending it for. Perhaps I've missed it, but so far I've only seen the "fairness" angle promoted.

"Moveable middle" voters won't give a flying fuck about "fairness" if you don't convince them that their kids are NOT in "danger," won't be "taught homosexuality," etc., etc.

PLEASE, PLEASE DON'T MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES the No on 8 people did. It ain't true, it ain't fair, but IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN!

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 10:19:50 AM CDT

IT HAS BEEN RECORDED.

Honestly Michael... we're not a bunch of ninnies.

We're on the same side- let's try to remember that and stop the circular gunfire bs every time I put up a post about Maine.

Part of why the Augusta Community Conversation was tweeted the other night in real time (and if you go back and look, I cut and pasted the conversation as well for those who could not access it at the time) was to let people know in real time what is happening and that includes rebuttal ads.

But NOW MONEY NEEDS TO HAPPEN to air the ads. Simple as that.

Please contact the campaign....

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by: Louise @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 10:46:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"bs"????

Asking questions in the face of the vacuum of no specifics from the No campaign, even a dissenting opinion, even with CAPS, is "bs" just because you disagree with it?

Thank you for your show of respect.

I went to their site before posting, thank you, and the only thing then under "Multimedia" were two YouTube videos of testimony. NOT ads you're asking people to donate money for. It's your right but isn't it our right to ask for more information first?

I just checked again and the "Sam" ad is now linked from the front page to the donation page. You and everyone else can donate to put it on the air. I won't because I believe, based on my experience WORKING IN the anti-Anita Bryant "Save Our Children" campaign in Miami in 1977 and living in California where I saw "fairness" No on 8 ads incinerated by ads like the one with the "Prof" [that some here think is a joke] will not work. Voters worried [however ilogically] about THEIR children don't give a damn about Sam no matter how many times you show them his story.

Flaming me is not the solution.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 13:11:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let me clarify

Here is the direct contact information, from their site:

Contact Us

Campaign Headquarters: 550 Forest Avenue, Suite 101, Portland, Maine 04101

Mailing Address: PO Box 8780, Portland, Maine 04104

Phone: (207) 899-1330

Email: info@protectmaineequality.org

These are the people in charge and the ones your questions/concerns should best directed at, not me.

And if you feel that what I have written in my responses is "flaming", then that is a violation of the TOS and I suggest you file a complaint on me. Not even the baristas are above the rules.

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by: Louise @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 14:02:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Louise, can we get some info from you

Since you are there on the ground in ME, can you tell us how often the No on 1 ads have been running.  Do they run in prime time or at 2 am? Do they run the Putnam ad and the Whittle ad with the same frequency, or have they opted for one over the other?

I know you are not watching all channels 24/7, but whatever you have picked up would be good to know.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 14:58:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

A great question, Daniel!

For myself I've seen both ads, as well as both the :30 and :60 EQME/GLAD/MCLU ad run from 5am when we get up until as late at 10pm (rare that I'm awake past 9!).

The latest I saw was during "Rachel Maddow".

And on WCSH6 (our local Portland NBC channel), WABI5 (Bangor CBS), WGME13 (Portland CBS) NECN (Cable, New England Cable Channel), and MSNBC.

I know the same mix is also occurring on WLBZ2, Bangor's NBC.

No idea about ABC (WVII in Bangor and WMTW Auburn)- I watch very little ABC programming.

But I'm fairly self-limiting on the TV watching... and I have seen all 4 possible ads on all of the channels I mention, mixed up throughout the day.

 

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by: Louise @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 16:04:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks Louise

Geez, I can't believe anyone goes to bed at 9!  I can't get to bed before 2 am.

Do you mean all 3 ads?  We have the one from EQME, the Putnam ad, and the Whittle ad.  I am not aware of a fourth unless you mean today's Yes on 1 ad.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 16:57:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

4th

would be the 1st one (EQME/GLAD/MCLU), but it's aired edited down to 30 seconds, as well as its original minute length.


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by: Louise @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 17:10:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I agree with Louise here

Michael, even valuable observations and opinions can be destructive if used to beat people over the head.  Maybe keep that in mind if you want your thoughts to be heeded.  Sometimes delivery is as important as the message itself if you want it to be heard.  And can you stop with the SHOUTING CAPS already?  I stop listening when people yell.

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Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 12:17:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I appreciate that you gave to No on 8, but honestly -

You seem to be having an irrational reaction to that defeat.  You understandably feel burned by the No on 8 mess, but the solution is not to then assume that every subsequent campaign will fail, or assume that the leaders of No on 1 are making the same mistakes as No on 8 or assume that the No on 1 folks are complete incompetents.  

You previously questioned whether the No on 1 campaign leaders even knew the difference b/t conservative GOP counties and liberal Democratic counties.  You raise this question even though the effort is being managed by the individual who ran the statewide campaign for the current Maine governor.  I think it is safe to assume that he knows what counties are liberal and what counties are not.

Your posts don't offer rational criticism, which is always welcome, but fear mongering.

You previously have posted that you won't volunteer.  Now you post that you won't donate.  You sound like a real winner.  Since Prop 8 didn't come out the right way, you'll just take your marbles and go home.  That is your choice, but I wish you wouldn't come here to crap on those of us who actually want to do something positive.

And BTW, genius, you don't record your response ad weeks in advance.  If you did, you wouldn't be able to modify it to account for the specifics in your opponents' ad.  What you do is get the general theme of the response and logistics ready, and then you shoot it once you know what you are responding to.  I hope that this is what No on 1 is doing and I further hope that we will see a response w/in 48 hours.  If they do that, that will be a very good sign.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 14:39:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Same song, second verse...

"come here to crap on those of us"??? So anyone who disagrees with you-plural is automatically ill-intentioned, ill-defined, and just plain "ill." That's not discussion that's defensiveness dressed in ad hominems.

I'm not calling names, I'm not crashing an invitation-only party, I'm not attacking people. I'm challenging assumptions [based on 35+ yrs. of LGBT rights movement experience and observations] and questioning vague requests for money on a public forum.

I do assume that "good intentions" alone aren't enough to accomplish anything.

I don't "assume" the leaders of No on 1 are making some of the same mistakes the No on 8 people did [who were no less sincere than anyone in Maine], they're there for anyone to see.

And BTW, genius, you don't record your response ad weeks in advance.  If you did, you wouldn't be able to modify it to account for the specifics in your opponents' ad.  What you do is get the general theme of the response and logistics ready, and then you shoot it once you know what you are responding to.

You just described the BIGGEST mistake made in California: not to look back at the four decades of battles across the country against LGBT equality and see that the common denominator is exploiting people's irrational but deeply-pre programmed fears about their children, supplemented in recent years with the "taking away your religious freedom" lie, and rather than RESPONDING to such lies addressing them before they've been expressed by the other side. "Offense" is always better than "defense" in politics.

The "script" is the same, whether it's Miami, CA, or Maine. You prepare your ads anticipating their talking points not waiting to find out WHO is doing the talking.

But the twin rabid horses of "Homosexuality taught in schools" and "attack on religion" are out of the barn and, SO FAR, No on 1 and "Sam" are just singing Kumbaya hoping they'll fade into the sunset.

But pat yourself on the back. You've succeeded in silencing me.

And I hope I'm wrong.

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by: Michael Bedwell @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 15:59:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry, Michael but you are wrong

First, I didn't accuse you of ad hominems.  I said that you are venting irrational fears and packaging them as if they were legitimate criticisms.  Like suggesting that No on 1 doesn't know which counties in Maine are conservative - without even having bothered to look up the bios of the people running the operation.  Ditto for your "questions" about the phone banking script.  Took you more time to make that allegation than it would have taken for you to pick up the phone and find out the truth.

I am not trying to silence criticism.  I do not advocate North Korean-like loyalty to No on 1 leaders.  If you read anything I have posted here over the past 6 months, you would see that I was critical of them as well as the folks in WA who have, IMO, bumbled the litigation over R71.  My point was that the criticism has to be based on facts, not speculation and suspicion.  And it is really wrong IMO to spend time writing these turgid comments when you admit that you won't do anything to participate(donate or volunteer) or to correct what you perceive to be a problem.  If you really thought that No on 1 was blowing it, then why don't you pick up the phone and speak with them?  It would take less time than writing the 10,000 words worth of comments you have posted here today.  Probably for the same reason you couldn't be bothered to look up Jesse Connolly's bio.  Because you would rather vent fears than actually help.

I looked you up on the Prop 8 donor base.  You really did donate.  I get how anyone who sent their hard-earned money into that keystone cops operation would feel burned.  

I just wish you would not draw the conclusion from that debacle that the solution is to suspect the worst about everyone and to drop out of any useful participation.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 16:53:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's sad...

...but Maine is really going to be hurt by the incompetence of the CA campaign.  I'm sorta with Michael... I gave >$1000 to CA to see it wasted with pathetic ads and financially I can't do it again, especially so soon.

Where I disagree is this "rebuttal ad" mentality.  Even if they're already made and ready to be shown, Maine has already lost if they're just going to rebut ads with "oh but that's not true" or "ignore the kid thing, let's be fair".  And from what you say and what I've seen, that's the way it's going.  I saw 2 ads, somewhere (I forget) and one was the ol' standard father-loves-both-daughters-and-lets-be-fair ... sigh...

I'll give some money, in fact I already have, but a lot is riding on this ad in my mind.  If it's just a "they're lying" ad or a "hey, let's be fair" ad, that's it.   As much as I want to keep kids out of this, unless the ads show that marriage is BENEFICIAL to kids and PROTECTS them (all true) AND the lies about teaching sex in schools is simply fear-mongering, then the Maine campaign is "insane"... i.e. doing the same thing over and over and expecting to get different results.

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by: Marsha @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 11:48:40 AM CDT

Let's go through this one more time

You do not start your ad campaign with rebuttals.  That is self-defeating and allows the entire subsequent debate to be defined by the opposition.  Starting off with an ad that says "This has nothing to do with schools!" would be the worst possible mistake No on 1 could have made, since it would guaranty that the first half of the campaign would be spent talking about schools.  

Their first 3 ads were to introduce the issue to the public, to introduce the people in Maine who care about marriage and explain why it is important.  That is all the first ads are supposed to do.  2 of the 3 ads did this well; 1 was muddled and was not a good ad IMO.

Now that the opposition has made its charges, THIS is when No on 1 will rebut.  That is exactly as it should be, and you are way off base when you suggest otherwise.  If at this point, there is no rebuttal or an ineffective rebuttal, you would be right to criticize.  But since the Yes ad just started running this morning, it is too early to make that call.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 14:56:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Seeing this ad

got me to donate.  I felt it was a very effective ad.  They have others on their website I believe so you can check out the kind of ads they are making.

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by: Jake Gellar-Goad @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 12:11:28 PM CDT

If No On One won't dirty its hands

Then someone else needs to.

Where are the ads denouncing the Catholic church for taking money away from its needy congregants to attack law-abiding gay couples and their children? Where are the ads bringing up the Catholic church's rampant, institutionalized sexual abuse of children and the Boston diocese's closing of the adoption office at Catholic Charities out of gay hate and spite? Show Maine that the catholic church has no place telling Mainers what is good for families. Get some shots of Opus Dei in there, and bring up Cardinal Bernard Law, who is still being protected from extradition in Italy by the Vatican. Take the log in the catholic church's eye and beat them to death with it. Make it about the corrupt leadership and not the congregants if you must, but for the love of Liza, use the well-publicized rope they've given us to hang them.

Progressives in general, and LGBT people in particular, keep losing because we keep insisting that if we just play nice, the other side will, too. Tune into reality.

As naamah_darling said at my place yesterday:

Some things are right and some things are wrong, and I don't see anything wrong with saying that these bigoted motherfuckers are morally reprehensible. Because they are, and no, I don't believe that's relative or open to debate.

By framing it in terms of logic, we're playing a different game than they are, because logic, real fact-oriented logic, does not enter into most of their arguments. I do believe we need to reclaim the moral high ground if we are to force these people into silence, and yes, I believe that is what should be done. There is no devil's advocate here, there is no "But what if they did the same to you?" Newsflash: they are doing it. I'm not going to play by the rules I wish they would play by, because when that happens, the side playing for keeps is the side that wins, not the side that is trying to play fair. I'm going to play by their own rules. They wanted this, now they can deal with it. See how they like it.

WHEN IS NO ON ONE GOING TO START PLAYING FOR KEEPS?

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 13:41:56 PM CDT

Regardless of the outcome, let's keep hitting them where it hurts

There's a chance to pass marriage equality in NY this month, so we should focus on that as well. We have an even better shot because NOM and the rest of the gang are focused on Maine -- we should use that to our advantage.

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by: Kokas @ Tue Sep 15, 2009 at 15:27:19 PM CDT