Is It Transphobia Or Just Bad Journalism At Seventeen Magazine?

A little insider information:

I knew the former Editor Atoosa, who was very cool and would likely not have fostered or in anyway encouraged an atmosphere of intolerance or bigotry.

The guard has changed at Seventeen, but Hearst magazines, a company I worked for for years, is very sensitive to issues of diversity, and I trust will take complaints seriously.

I believe if you approach them nicely, correct their misstatements, recommend language that is more appropriate, you'll see an apology or some sort of walk-back.

They would likely be open to hearing a pitch to a story that could provide balance to the readers in a more sensitive light. "I'm 17 and trans..."

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by: Clarknt67 @ Sat Oct 24, 2009 at 15:33:12 PM CDT

Agreed

I wrote them a while back when I had a Subscription (I'm 19 so don't think I'm some middle aged woman with a Subscription) and they were very receptive to my comments.

I hope they do an article about a real life transgender person. That would do wonders.

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by: PurpleLove08 @ Sat Oct 24, 2009 at 22:39:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is It Transphobis or Just Bad Journalism at Seventeen Magazine?

I would say it's both transphobia and bad journalism, except I question whether giving a national forum to an adolescent to present a one-sided account of a romantic relationship and its break-up in any way constitutes journalism.

I agree with everything you said, and I would add that the one-sided nature of the story indicates that Seventeen had no interest in pursuing the truth. That's where the transphobia shows it's ugly head the most, for me.  The fact that they didn't think it necessary to ask the boy for his side of the story will lead the adolescents reading it to infer that the girl's side of the story is the whole story.

I'm disgusted.  

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by: ASDKids2 @ Sat Oct 24, 2009 at 19:49:03 PM CDT

I agree, Clarknt67...

and would add this:  someone should write a follow up article about transgender teens, from a transgender teens point of view.  A well written reaching out article would do wonders for trans-teens, I think!

Hate stops a beating heart.

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by: KarenS @ Sat Oct 24, 2009 at 19:59:41 PM CDT

Great suggestion!

I like this; take a negative and turn it around into an educating moment...

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 10:25:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

He may not be ready to be interviewed...

But why not get Chaz Bono's opinion?

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Sat Oct 24, 2009 at 20:35:15 PM CDT

The Facts

Just because you believe you are a man doesn't make you one. Gender is based on biology not beliefs. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the article was riddled with prejudice.

I'm all for letting people do what they want, but leading someone on is wrong. Entering a relationship with someone who would be extremely unlikely to pursue said relationship to any degree if they knew that who they were dating was a girl who looked like a boy besides, of course, genitalia without disclosing this information is leading someone on. It IS deceptive. It is a lie of omission. Most, probably almost all, straight people would not be willing to enter into a relationship with a transgendered person. Transgendered people should know better than anyone else how unwilling people are to perceive them as whatever sex they think they are, and they should know that for most people the genitalia of their partner matters. This is rational and reasonable.

I'm not sure what you mean by intimate in terms of your statement, "If it were me in the same circumstances, I would have at least revealed my trans status to the young woman I was dating as soon as the young woman wanted to become intimate." Do you mean intimacy in general or sexual intimacy? There is a big difference. Waiting until someone they are in a relationship with is ready to become sexual intimate to disclose their true gender is plain and simple deception. Hiding this until the last possible moment is unjustifiable. Yes, the statistics you list indicate that there is a potential danger to being more forthright, but that's the world we live in. Obviously, transgendered people are victimized and oppressed, but that does not give them license to mislead others.

Now, if the article takes the viewpoint that "acting like a man" with female reproductive organs is in itself deceptive, then it's wrong. Acting masculine or feminine doesn't change your reproductive organs. They are simply cultural norms or even stereotypes.

In my opinion, if transgendered people really want to be accepted universally they should stop pretending their gender is what they decide it is. Operating on that misconception only sets themselves up to be seen as wrong in more ways than just that delusion.

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 03:32:15 AM CDT

Thanks for your fail -- please try again.

Gender is based on biology not beliefs.

Yeah, you're really pulling out that line in the wrong crowd.  You might want to start with looking up the difference between "sex" and "gender".  And then sit down and actually listen when people on here who know the subject better than I do explain how a gender identity different from socially-assigned gender can also be a matter of biology.  Just because you want the whole gender picture to be clear and in your favor doesn't mean reality's under any obligation to comply.

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by: M @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 06:23:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Biology - some facts

Let's deal with genes first:
XX means F, XY means M. Except when it doesn't.

A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis

- J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9.

There's lots of Intersex conditions. People born with bodies that don't 100% match a male stereotype nor a female one. I won't go into them in detail, but there's men with 47,XXY chromosomes who (with technical help) have fathered children, and women with 47,XXY chromosomes who have given birth. There's people with feminising CAI syndrome, and masculinising CAH syndrome. There's people with 5ARD or 17BHDD syndrome that look somewhat, mostly or completely female at birth, but masculinise to look somewhat, mostly or completely male later. It varies from a mild masculinisation to a complete one.

Now to Transsexuality - the American Psychiatric Association held its annual meeting a few months ago. One of the seminars was this one:

S10. The Neurobiological Evidence for Transgenderism
1. Brain Gender Identity Sidney W. Ecker, M.D.
2. Transsexuality as an Intersex Condition Milton Diamond, Ph.D.
3. Novel Approaches to Endocrine Treatment of Transgender Adolescents and Adults Norman Spack, M.D.

There's hundreds of papers on the issue. Many of them using animals, we can reliably induce transsexuality in those by appropriately varying the foetal hormone environment. Experimenting on humans that way isn't ethical, so we have to use less certain methods - autopsies, fMRI scans and so on. Some of the papers:

   1.DF Swaab, WC Chung, FP Kruijver, MA Hofman, TA Ishunina
   Structural and functional sex differences in the human hypothalamus
   Horm Behav. Sep, 2001; 40(2): 93-8.

   2. DF Swaab
   Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation
   Gynecol Endocrinol. Dec, 2004; 19(6): 301-12.

   3.IE Sommer, PT Cohen-Kettenis, T van Raalten, AJ Vd Veer, LE Ramsey, LJ Gooren, RS Kahn, NF Ramsey
   Effects of cross-sex hormones on cerebral activation during language and mental rotation: An fMRI study in transsexuals
   Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. Mar 2008; 18(3): 215-21.

   4.H Berglund, P Lindstrom, C Dhejne-Helmy, I Savic
   Male to female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids
   Cereb Cortex. Aug 2008; 18(8): 1900-8.

Yes, humans have sexually-differentiated senses of smell and hearing, various other cognitive skills such as language and visio-spatial relationship perception, different instinctive body language and emotional response.

And trans people have cross-sexed brains, in the areas of the lymbic nucleus, BSTc layer of the hypothalamus, right frontal gyrus and probably others we have't identified yet.

So yes, it's a matter of biology. Chromosomes are unreliable as indicators of gender, genitalia is unreliable (that changes for some people with 5ARD etc), external appearance can change, endocrine balance can change, but the neuro-anatomy in these basal structures of the brain doesn't (though other areas of the brain are more plastic).

A trans man was born a man, and was male from about the 26th week after conception - that's the earliest you can detect the sexual differentiation in the brain. Gender Identity is not between the legs, it's between the ears.

In my opinion, if transgendered people really want to be accepted universally they should stop pretending their gender is what they decide it is. Operating on that misconception only sets themselves up to be seen as wrong in more ways than just that delusion.

In the opinion of many, if gays really want to be accepted universally they should stop pretending their sexual orientation isn't a matter of choice, and that they could be straight if they wanted to be. Operating on that misconception only sets themselves up to be seen as wrong in more ways than just that delusion.

You're not the only one whose opinion is based in misunderstanding, understandable ignorance, or a wilful blindness to the facts. I say "understandable" ignorance, because this kind of stuff isn't taught in schools, and isn't common knowledge. GLB, and in this case T, educators try to get this message across by posts like this one.

BTW I'm technically not trans, but Intersexed. A protandrous dichogamous pseudohermaphrodite, born looking male (mostly, there were anomalies) but later determined to be female when the change hit. And I'm straight too, just to make it even more complicated.  

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

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by: ZoeB @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 07:40:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

One more thing

I say "technically" Intersexed, because there's no real difference between my own (VERY rare) syndrome and the situation of any other trans woman. We both looked male at birth, we both have feminine brains, we both look female now. I just changed naturally, they required medical help. And even I had some of that, certain parts of my anatomy which had never looked really normal became an ambiguous dysfunctional mess, and required surgical reconstruction. I also require rather more hormonal maintenance to keep healthy.

But psychologically, and neuro-anatomically, I'm a stereotypical trans woman, even though I had "severe androgenisation of a non-pregnant woman". That outweighs trivial somatic differences.

I'm unpopular in certain quarters: the existence of those like me doesn't just explode your theories, but the teachings of some major religions, and political philosophies of both Left and Right.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

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by: ZoeB @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 08:00:46 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fallacious Arguments

Sex: 1: "either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures" [dictionary.com]

Gender: 2 a: SEX[dictionary.com]

I deliberately checked a dictionary before I used the word "gender" and, believe it or not, it's synonymous with "sex." Maybe certain kinds of psychological specialists would be more pedantic about it, but my point remains the same. Gender identity is not the same as gender. If you have no female reproductive organs (not even partially formed) and you have fully functioning male reproductive organs that can be used to produce offspring, you are male. Masculinity or femininity are unrelated. Belief of what your gender is is unrelated.

Gravity exists whether or not you believe it. You are not Jesus's reincarnation even if you are positive about it. You are not an alien if your body is physically human and you are positive that you are alien. There is no such thing as a belief that changes what you are. Gender identity is merely that, identity. It is not gender reality. It's what you identify with, or believe, not what the truth is.

A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis

I don't see how this conflicts with my argument. Chromosomes, and for that matter hormones, are clearly not the determinant of sex even though they tend to be a good predictor.

If your neurology more closely relates to the average woman than the average man, you might say you identify more closely with women. It does not make you a woman. There are extremes in all things nature and the structure of the brain is no exception. However, physical characteristics are very clear.

In the opinion of many, if gays really want to be accepted universally they should stop pretending their sexual orientation isn't a matter of choice, and that they could be straight if they wanted to be. Operating on that misconception only sets themselves up to be seen as wrong in more ways than just that delusion.

This is a very desperate and more importantly, false analogy. There is considerable evidence to support the fact that adolescents who believe they are transgender and undergo certain kinds of therapy before they undertake hormone replacement therapy can change their gender identity back to their actual gender more often than they might simply by not undergoing hormone replacement therapy at all unlike sexuality which has never been demonstrated to be mutable through action. Moreover, sexuality is complex to study in that is relies much on self-reporting and has not been studied ad nauseam like many things in psychology. On the other hand, gender is not a psychological issue, only gender identity is. Gender is static and does not rely solely on self-reporting.

If you can bear a child, you are female. If you can produce a child with someone who can bear a child you are male. I don't think anyone has been demonstrated to do either. If a point comes when it is demonstrated that someone can do both, they are hermaphroditic. If you have neither male nor female reproductive organs without alteration, then you are asexual. If you cannot do either (barren or unviable), then what do your sexual organs without cosmetic surgery most closely resemble. It gets complicated, but the truth is still very much measurable.

It is clearly nonsensical to proclaim that you are male when you can bear a child and cannot impregnate a woman and even more so to proclaim that you are male simply because you believe that it is so.

I like trannies as much as the next penis-loving male who appreciates the aesthetics of the female figure, but whether or not you pump yourself full of hormones and get joy and feel normal by acting feminine you're still a man who looks like the average woman with your penis hidden from view or surgically removed. Get over it. You're a man who wants to look like a woman. You don't have any right to lead someone on and have them fall in love with you as if the shape of your genitalia is unimportant to them. If they do so because of your actions and intent you are doing something immoral. If such a thing weren't important, gay guys would be falling in love romantically with all sorts of masculine women. They aren't.

There's nothing wrong with being a man who wants to look like a woman, who has a feminine brain and relates more closely to women, who wants to have a relationship that very closely resembles that of a man and woman albeit among two men. There is something wrong with pretending that you are a woman when you are a man, and blaming others for any consequences of such a belief. Waiting until you're about to sex have to say "I have a penis, I hope you don't mind" or saying nothing at all is a deception unless you're having spontaneous anonymous sex or some other equally absurd scenario. Going on dates with someone who might mind, who probably will mind without getting it out of the way is similarly deceptive. It is just a number of assumptions that people

Finally, I'm not a troll and if you are right and I am wrong I would welcome the knowledge, but I am pretty confident that this is not the case.  

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 15:20:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

trannies?

Maybe I'm wrong but to me that is a TOS violation.

Dena

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" is so 2006.

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by: Denabeth @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 17:08:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sad

I came back to look for legitimate responses. All I got was a petty plea for censorship. I wasn't saying it to be derogatory. Hell, I didn't even think anyone considered it derogatory until I saw you crying TOS violation and did a search. And if we were ever in a discussion about gays and you used the word faggot in a legitimate discussion as a synonym for homosexual I wouldn't care or be offended. Most faggots who aren't insecure hypocrites wouldn't either.

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 17:33:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Lesson #1

"Trannies" = derogatory term

Class dismissed.

Dena

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" is so 2006.

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by: Denabeth @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 18:10:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You just joined the blog as a blender...

...you just agreed to follow the terms and conditions of service -- that's a commenting requirement.

Let's point out Section A, rule 8:

8. You may not post or transmit any message which is harmful, threatening, abusive, hateful, or defamatory (defamatory anti-lesbian, anti-gay, anti-bisexual, and anti-transgender language will include, but not be limited to, the language identified as defamatory within the current online version of the GLAAD Media Guide). Excessive use of profanity is discouraged, epithets directed at community members are grounds for suspension or deactivation (banning) at any time.

Moderator Action: A single public warning in the comment thread is considered fair notice prior to a suspension or ban. The offending comment(s) may also be left intact as proof of the violation, or deleted at the moderator's discretion.

The page linked to in the GLAAD Media guide includes the following comment about defamatory language (emphasis added):

DEFAMATORY TERMINOLOGY

Defamatory: "deceptive," "fooling," "pretending," "posing," or "masquerading"

Gender identity is an integral part of a person's identity. Please do not characterize transgender people as "deceptive," as "fooling" other people, or as "pretending" to be, "posing" or "masquerading" as a man or a woman. Such descriptions are extremely insulting.

Defamatory: "she-male," "he-she," "it," "trannie," tranny," "gender-bender"

These words only serve to dehumanize transgender people and should not be used (See Defamatory Language).

We have commenting rules. These rules are clearly spelled out in the Pam's House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service. You agreed to follow the rules found in the Pam's House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service when you signed up just days ago; you're clearly not following the rules found in the Pam's House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service -- did your read the rules before agreeing to follow these rules?

Well, you're advocating a posisiton that's been identified as a defamatory position in our reference document, and you're using language that's been identified as defamatory to do it.

We seem to have the most problems with people not following the rules when it comes to diaries on trans people and issues. Apparently, this diary is not going to be an exception to that habitude.

Guess what? Last warning.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 18:46:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Genitalia is everything?

Okay, so should a hypogonadal man, whose penis is about the size of his thumb, also announce this up front to any prospective date? How about a man who lost his entire package in an accident? What about other genital injuries or deformations? Should anyone whose genitals are not "standard issue" be expected to tell a potential date right away?


Tax the Christian Taliban!

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by: Wolfgang @ Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 07:36:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

If only you weren't a troll account

I'd have cause to respond.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 08:58:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh no, manlove a troll?!?

Hey blenders, this is this user's first comment. He, she, or ze has come to our fully inclusive blog, and is posting a view that appears designed just to stir the pot.

Let's talk turkey here. From the our Pam's House Blend Terms And Conditions Of Service definition for trolling:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

So...

So, my peer blenders, don't fall into manlove's obvious trap; remember Teh Internets "rule" for trolls: Don't Feed The Trolls.

By the way manlove, trolling is a violation of our TOS.  

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 09:37:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Aww!

But it's so much fun to bash them around in our paws, like kittens with yarn. Until they get whacked under the sofa and start to smell.

Sulking now; Autumn isn't letting us have any fun! ;)

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 10:27:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fully inclusive?

Really? seriously?  The more I read PHB the more I am convinced it is "fully inclusive" as long as you agree with someone's point of view.

Troll or not a discussion and education of this person is far better.  It also gives those of us like me that don't fully understand transgendered people a chance to know more about it.  If he responds to the educational attempt with an asshat response, then by all means...fire at will.

You would be surprised how many people in middle America believe that way...and going all psycho militant on them from go is certainly a way to make them entrench in their view and make them unwilling to listen to your point of view at all.

I enjoy this blog, and even though I am making this comment now after deleting about 20 comments on previous posts, I feel unsafe to make any comment because my feelings on any subject matter don't exactly match yours...am I too a troll Autumn?  

In all honesty ZoeB's response was enlightening and educational to me and put things in a better prospective...regardless of manloves's comments I still learned something today.

That and Seventeen magazine needs to be a little more specific in how they identify transgendered folks and behaviors.

Peace

"I drank what?"  Socrates

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by: kiltedyak @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 11:10:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you

I applaud your openness for not assuming that I'm simply a troll despite that I have firmly held (and well-founded) yet conflicting beliefs. To me, it seems hypocritical to demand open-mindedness from others and behave in this way.

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 14:20:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I never assume

That someone is anything until they prove it...

"I drank what?"  Socrates

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by: kiltedyak @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 20:24:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Transphobia

Does this person really understand biology?Do they not know the medical community has learned alot about it,such as hormonal and chromosones abnormalities happen within the human body?Do they not know that a medical professional can look at chromosones without knowing the person it came from and assume the person is one gender but unfortunately looks like the opposite?Or that they have discovered many different syndromes when it comes to gender?
Apparently this individual lacks knowledge and understanding of what they are saying,making a general statement from their ignorance.Demonstrating how some will act and react from their own personal beliefs instead of aquiring facts and truth.  

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by: Dee @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 12:16:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Disclosure

What I'm not saying is that the trans youth in this story -- "Derek" -- was anything but a jerk. If it were me in the same circumstances, I would have at least revealed my trans status to the young woman I was dating as soon as the young woman wanted to become intimate. That "Derek," if he behaved in the way that the article portrayed him as behaving in the story, would actually be that kind of a jerk isn't the point here.

It sounds like you're arguing* that Derek should have disclosed as soon as they 'became intimate' (which, in the article, sounds like physical contact, but pretty innocent).  That argument is just wrong.  There is no obligation for a trans person to disclose at any particular point.  To say that someone should disclose and is a jerk for not doing so makes the same argument that the article makes, just using different words (i.e., that a trans person is a liar or jerk for not revealing the intimate details of their medical history soon enough).  

I would argue that there is never an obligation for any trans person to disclose to anyone, especially for people who consider their transness to be a physical, medical condition, rather than an identity.  In practice, people generally disclose at some point, but no one ever has to do so, and certainly not at a particular time.

*Derek seems to have been a jerk in other respects, any maybe you're referring to those.  Still, you seem to think he should have disclosed, and I disagree.

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by: b @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 09:54:55 AM CDT

I would agree with you.

I would agree with you that trans people are not obligated to disclose. However, one should be prepared for someone to label one as as a liar or as deceptive if one doesn't disclose, and the parner finds out one hse trans history later.

Trans history shouldn't matter to others in dating situations, but in reality it does. We live in a world where a good many people care about being seen as being in a gay relationship when they consider themselves to be straight; we live in a world where assaults and murders of trans people happen -- and the assaulters and killers claim gay panic or trans panic defenses.

I would disclose. That will probably cost me dating people who date me if they didn't know, and accept me after having dating me awhile. So, there are consequences for disclosing just as much as there are possible consequences related to not disclosing. I personally choose to disclose.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 14:09:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I sort of agree

It's one thing to be prepared to be labeled a liar or deceptive; obviously, it's still wrong for anyone to use those terms in reference to trans people.  That is, the possibility that someone else will use inappropriate language does not provide guidelines for my behavior.  I'm not a liar or a jerk for not disclosing, whatever someone else says.

I do agree about the possibility of assault for failing to disclose.  That's a real danger.  But anyone who will assault first and call 'gay panic' later is potentially dangerous anytime one discloses.  The only possible way to guard against that is to be careful and screen possible partners, as well as possible, beforehand.  I still think that shouldn't affect the right of trans people to not disclose.  

As far as people who don't wish to be seen to be "in a gay relationship", there's always the argument that letting someone get to know you as person first, and as trans later, will help to change minds.  That actually might apply in the case of Seventeen article (if Derek had  disclosed at the time of his choosing, not via the police).

I've also disclosed pretty early in a relationship.  That relationship has stuck, so I haven't had to make the decision again.  But I would probably wait longer this time (not because it went badly last time, but because I think my views on this have changed).

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by: b @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 14:51:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

There IS an Obligation to Disclose

There is an obligation to disclose for several reason.

1.) A lot of people in this country are religious.  I don't necessarily agree with many of their viewpoints, and by extension, the fact that I'm gay means they think my "lifestyle" (I hate that word - what exactly does it mean?) is sinful.  Yet, I believe that they, and I, have the right to live our life according to our own belief systems because that's what living in a free democracy, or republic as is our case, means.  

For better or worse, many Christians, Muslims, and Jews, believe that God created "male" and "female".  Yes, I understand that intersex exists but we're talking about their personal belief system for their own life.  As a result, they believe that if they were to sleep with someone that God created out of their mother's womb who happens to be the same gender, they've committed and abomination before God and are endangering their soul.

I don't agree with them, and I don't understand it.  But the reality is that I respect their right to have religious beliefs and live their own life according to their convictions.  That's what being inclusive, and supporting equality, means.  

If Derek is a man and lives his life as a man, it still doesn't change the fact that according to their beliefs, he was born a woman and that is how God intended it (just as they believe I "choose" to be gay - and don't even get me started on that).  (Again, I feel the need to keep pointing out that I don't agree with any of these positions, just that being inclusive means we should respect their sincerity.)

For a transgendered person to date, and later become emotionally or physically intimate, with someone who has these convictions, as a good percentage of the population does in a historically religious society, is putting the other party into a situation that they truly believe endangers their soul.  To not inform them so they can make a choice on their own, based on their own beliefs, is so unbelievably arrogant it's almost insulting.  It's basically saying, "I know better than you and your belief system means nothing."

2.) For many people, dating is a prelude to getting married and having children.  I have a brother who is devoutly religious and, despite traveling the world and being a very good looking guy, hasn't slept with his fiance yet and won't until their wedding night.  If he found out his fiance was a male-to-female transgendered person after getting married, not only would he be tricked into what is (in his mind) a homosexual relationship, but he now can't have biological children, which he's talked about since we were in elementary school.  

The reality is that if you date someone, and become intimate emotionally or physically, you should care enough about the other person's feelings and beliefs to respect them and disclose.  

I would have no problem dating and marrying a female-to-male transgendered person if I was aware of it upfront.  If I found out after we had been dating, I am going to consider them a liar and I am going to feel as if they were concealing something very important about themselves.

I think the same thing applies to people who are HIV positive in serious dating situations.  As someone who is negative, I would want to know beforehand so I could make an informed decision about building a life with someone.  This has nothing to do with telling everyone at work, at school, or you come across your personal business.  It has to do with intimate relationships where the other person's feelings and beliefs must factor into your calculation if you have any sense of humanity at all.  If I found myself in love with a woman (highly unlikely, but you never know), I'd be upfront about my attraction to men so she knew what she was getting into from the outset.  That is fair.  That is honest.  That is right. Does that mean she would reject me?  Possibly.  But she has a right to know.

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by: GoldTopHat @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 16:47:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

These are both limit case arguments

In the first case, I hope I would know my partner well enough to know how seriously religious they were before any sexual activity took place.  If they have such strong beliefs, I'm pretty sure that the getting-to-know you stuff (if not, frankly, casual conversation) will rule me out as a potential partner.  In other words, I don't think we'll even get to the point of intimacy.  It's also worth pointing out that, if we were to get intimate, and they were to see my body, they could leave before further activity.  

This might be beside the point, but I would be equally creeped out by any partner who had that set of beliefs; sometimes that happens.  Further, I certainly have no responsibility for anyone else's soul, and I have no responsibility to disclose to everyone based on the small possibility that my partner has this particular set of beliefs.  Also, I wouldn't see it as disrespecting their belief system.  In my view, their decision to view me as female, despite my own identity, is incredibly disrespectful.  It seems like a stalemate.

In the second case, I would view it as my responsibility to disclose infertility, because you're right about the importance of biological children to some people.  But I don't necessarily think I have to disclose the reasons why.

I'll just say that I think in a long-term relationship, this will probably come up.  Questions of history, childhood, family, identity, whatever mean that you'll probably talk about this.  (I did, and do, with my partner.)  But in the case of a short relationship, or the beginnings of a relationship, there isn't a responsibility to disclose immediately, and no one but the trans person gets to decide the right time to do it.  The other person can always leave the relationship, and that is always their right, whenever the disclosure occurs.

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by: b @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 18:23:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good to know

I'm glad to know that.  From your original post, I thought you were advocating the partner had zero right to know under any circumstances (which made wonder how it could be called a relationship if that were the case).

My personality is geared toward full disclosure.  Secrets destroy.  They force you to censor yourself around people, and to hide your feelings and emotions.  I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone, or even having a friendship with someone for that matter, unless they knew the real, authentic me.  That means the situations and decisions that led me to where I am in my life now and what shaped me as a person.  Could you ever really relax around someone, knowing there was a part of your past that you hadn't shared with them?  Would you blame them for thinking you were a liar if you had kept that omission after several years, even if they had no problem with it?

Part of that could just be my "relationship" orientation.  I have a handful of really close friends (the kind I would trust to put on a joint bank account) and I've been in a monogamous relationship with the same man since we were both 18 years old.  We're all brutally honest (years ago, he once woke me up to tell me that he had looked at lesbian porn and got freaked out because he liked it - that type of full-disclosure honesty about stuff most people don't say out loud).  It's liberating.  You never have to hide.  

If someone doesn't like and love you for who you are, including your past, who needs them?  Why have them in your life?

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by: GoldTopHat @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 21:11:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you need to know something about your partner, you should ask them.

I have never heard of a trans person being in a relationship and lying about being trans. What I usually see are cisgendered people who assume that everyone else in the world is cisgendered despite evidence to the contrary. Anyone you meet could be transsexual. It is not their job to tell everyone.

If whether or not someone is trans is important, I think it should be up to them to ask all their dates "are you trans?" Much like contraception: if it's important to you, don't assume that the other person will use a pill or a condom, ask.

Yes, I used to present as a different gender and sometimes I don't mention it right away when I meet someone. I also used to watch Entertainment Tonight. I'm told that I used to scream until my mother breast-fed me, then I'd throw up on her and mess myself. But since I don't do any of these things anymore, I don't volunteer the information unless someone asks - or I trust them and feel like it mentioning it.

Or is it about bodies? Some religious conservatives would say that genitals, chromosomes or reproductive ability determine whether a marriage is holy or a sin. But some religious conservatives also believe that having vestigial nipples or an enlarged gallbladder is proof of performing malicious witchcraft (I am not making this up).

I have gone out with women and not mentioned that I have a vestigial nipple. I don't think that this means I was lying to them. If it's important to them, they should ask.

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by: inkstainedfingers @ Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 15:26:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Transphobia

A person who commented said "The Facts
Just because you believe you are a man doesn't make you one.Gender is based on biology not beliefs."

Does this person really understand biology?Do they not know the medical community has learned alot about it,such as hormonal and chromosones abnormalities happen within the human body?Do they not know that a medical professional can look at chromosones without knowing the person it came from and assume the person is one gender but unfortunately looks like the opposite?Or that they have discovered many different syndromes when it comes to gender?
Apparently this individual lacks knowledge and understanding of what they are saying,making a general statement from their ignorance.Demonstrating how some will act and react from their own personal beliefs instead of aquiring facts and truth.  

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by: Dee @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 12:13:59 PM CDT

Disclosure/Derek/Jerkhood

manlove's helpfully entitled post on "The Facts" adjudges:

Obviously, transgendered people are victimized and oppressed, but that does not give them license to mislead others.

I maintain that there is no way to know, from the information presented, that Derek did or did not disclose his transgendered identity.  Sheri says he did not, but Derek is not allowed to give his side of the story. But, hey, the 'normal' person has spoken, and that's all we need to know.  "The Facts" are out there, and they are the same as "The Truth."

Sheri, the aggrieved narrator, does say

When we made out, he never let me see him with his shirt off or touch him 'below the belt.'  He wanted to take physical stuff slowly because he'd been hurt in past relationships.

I think this statement is meant to lead the reader to infer that Sheri should have known that Derek wasn't a real guy, since real guys don't turn down sexual gratification. Since Derek didn't respond in the most stereotyped way possible, he's not a real guy.

Orion45 asks:

He may not be ready to be interviewed...But why not get Chaz Bono's opinion?

I love the suggestion, but I still doubt they even asked Derek.  If they had asked for his side of the story, I believe there would have been a disclaimer stating that he declined to be interview, since that would have reinforced the alleged veracity of Sheri's account.

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by: ASDKids2 @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 12:29:05 PM CDT

Lens of Irrationality

That's you got from my post? That I ASSUMED Derek was in the wrong and actually did what I think is unethical? I didn't.

Like I said, intimacy, the word used by the author, is an ambiguous word and my opinions are very precise. Nonetheless, I would be tempted to believe that some people would find it acceptable to wait until this girl is ready to have sex with a man with a fully functional and natural penis to tell them about their physical characteristics and gender identity. I did not presume that this is what the author's opinion actually is, but that the language was ambiguous enough that the point may have been made and that people agree with this viewpoint. I do not.

As for your interpretation of the quote that you cited,

I think this statement is meant to lead the reader to infer that Sheri should have known that Derek wasn't a real guy, since real guys don't turn down sexual gratification. Since Derek didn't respond in the most stereotyped way possible, he's not a real guy.

you are again assuming intent without reason. I read that statement as any relatively rational person would in the context of the article.

Sheri did not have enough evidence to assume anything about Derek besides that he had reason to say that he wants to take "physical stuff slowly." Besides, there are so many more reasons and probably more common reasons for something like this than gender identity issues. A straight man who did this might have obvious sexually transmitted diseases, or be insecure about his endowment. He might have the belief that any relationship that goes to sexual intimacy too quickly is doomed to fail. From Sheri's perspective, she might suspect that he is gay and trying to fit in. Or maybe she knows nothing about sexuality and thinks that the guy does not find her attractive and takes it personally. I sincerely doubt that any significant portion of girls in that situation would jump to the conclusion that they are trying to get it on with someone who has a vagina. How can you possibly assume that's what that statement implies? It's preposterous. Please put aside your pride and tell me that you rescind those statements so that I can have a little bit of faith in the commenters on this blog.

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 14:09:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I might add...

Having just read the above post entitled "Transphobia" which says that transgender people NEVER have an obligation to inform people about their situation, it further validates my point that some people might hold such an opinion. In fact, Dee goes even farther than such a viewpoint, which if put into action is, in my mind, deplorable.

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 14:13:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Edit?

Edit: Not "Transphobia" and not "Dee," rather "Disclosure" and "b." Sorry about that, I read the article then went up to catch the title and author and transposed the two by mistake

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 14:15:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Comments and Question

Just because you referenced my post, I have some comments and a question for you.  First, you said in your original post that

Most, probably almost all, straight people would not be willing to enter into a relationship with a transgendered person. Transgendered people should know better than anyone else how unwilling people are to perceive them as whatever sex they think they are, and they should know that for most people the genitalia of their partner matters.

I'm a trans person in a relationship with a straight, non-trans person.  I have dated other straight, non-trans people.  I know many other trans people who have dated straight (and gay) non-trans people.  It's not as uncommon as you think.  Further, I have exactly zero problems getting people to perceive me as I am (which is what you probably mean by "whatever sex they think they are").  Genitalia matters as much and as little for partners of trans people as for anyone else.  They're sexually functional and unique, just like those of any other partner.

Second, you say that

Obviously, transgendered people are victimized and oppressed, but that does not give them license to mislead others.

It's worth pointing out that I'm not especially victimized and oppressed, at least not in my day-to-day life.  (That's obviously different as far as institutionalized oppression in the legal, justice, medical, etc. fields go.)  But one of the most common forms of daily oppression is the kind of argument that you're making:  that I'm oppressed, how I really need to be understood, but that I still need most of all to consider how uncomfortable I might make some poor non-trans person.

As far as the question:  what harm do you think is done by not disclosing?  You seem to be most concerned about the non-trans person in the relationship; how do you think they are being harmed by not being told soon enough about the physical details of my body?  If they don't like the shape of my genitals, they can always leave and never call me again.  But that's kind of true for any partner.

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by: b @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 15:11:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Answers

I'd be interested to know how ambiguously transexual you are. It could simply be that you are dating latent homosexuals who have no idea and they are attracted to you because you offer the femininity that they think they want because of their environment as well as the masculinity they are attracted to instinctively, especially if you have some very masculine features and mannerisms to go along with your feminine identity and feminine physical characteristics. Or maybe they are bisexual to some degree.

You might date straight people and your friends and acquaintances might date straight people, but dating is hardly the point. Falling in love is the point. Being able to fall in love is the point. I think even people who might be sexually incompatible could be fulfilled if they fall in love romantically (that's what's most important, right?), but I don't know how far it extends. How many trans people do you know who fell in love with otherwise definitively  straight (or close to it as sexuality is impossible to measure) people who also fell in love with them? And besides...

Genitalia matters as much and as little for partners of trans people as for anyone else

So, for almost everyone, a whole lot? Seriously, I sincerely doubt that genitalia is that unimportant to the huge majority of people.

how do you think they are being harmed by not being told soon enough about the physical details of my body?  If they don't like the shape of my genitals, they can always leave and never call me again.  But that's kind of true for any partner.

It's not just shape as in "oh his cock has a weird vein, or hooks to the left unfortunately" or "she has beef curtains" and it's not if they can enjoy sex, it's what kind of sex they enjoy, how compatible people are. I have never ever heard of a straight man breaking up with a straight woman because she had beef curtains although it's probably happened somewhere sometime. I highly doubt that these two things (break-ups due to shape of expected genitals being the wrong shape vs break-ups due to shape of unexpected genitals being the wrong shape) happen with at all similar frequencies.

And a little thought experiment, if you may. If you are not bisexual (you might be which would make this question rather pointless), would you be equally willing to date a trans man with a vagina as a vanilla man? Honestly, though, as in what you say you'd be open and what you might act on vs what you feel would be most in line with what you want are exactly the same?

Of course, it's nice if more and more people became open-minded about it in that way, but that kind of goes without saying. I'd suspect a lot of straight people simply could not fall in love with you even if they had all the reasons in the world once they knew just that much about you. And that's why I think it's essential that it be disclosed around the time any informal relationship beyond acquaintanceship and platonic friendship is pursued, especially when romantic interest is apparent from either side. The opposite is assumed. It's a reasonable and universal assumption and it brings the burden of the responsibility of the extremely rare exception. As a gay man, I can't go out to eat an otherwise romantic dinner with a girl who is apparently attracted to me or let a girl have a crush on me for any significant time once they seem to without telling them I'm gay because leading them on would be wrong.

I would certainly like to be wrong and believe that anyone could fall in love with anyone and be fulfilled, but I don't and I don't think there is anything so different about transgendered people that would make it so that exclusively straight people would be able to fall in love with them even though they couldn't fall in love with a very feminine man. If it's about looks, then genitalia should be somewhat important anyway. If it's about femininity and brain structure, some gay men have that in spades and yet still don't seem to stand a chance and I don't think it's just cultural prejudice - they're not attracting the straight liberal men, now are they?

As for what harm do I think is done by not disclosing? Maybe they will get too attracted to something which doesn't exist such as the women with the sex organs they like as opposed to the ones they are repulsed by. The sort of connection that is most important, if not love itself, takes time to build up to and if it can't happen at all for them if you aren't what they assume is true (because of heavily favorable odds) then it can cause them harm not to tell them. Or you could just ignore that and say "it's their problem, they made the assumptions which is only true 95%+ of the time."  

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 16:34:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I think you're overstating the importance of genitals

This doesn't especially matter, but I'm not particularly feminine looking (which is true of most trans men, in my experience - testosterone works!)  My current partner is pretty solidly straight.  We're in a committed relationship, and she is in love with me (and vice versa).  This isn't really a useful line of argument, though.  If you're just going to argue that all partners of trans people are in fact not in love, but deceiving themselves, there's nowhere else we can go with this.  And I still think you underestimate the number of people who fall for the person, and then are willing to deal with whatever genitals they find, and find them hot, because they find the whole person hot.

What I mean when I say that genitals matter only so much is that there are lots of reasons to like/dislike genitals (size, shape, various veins, etc.), but there are also other factors in sexual compatibility (what each person likes, how often, where, when, etc.).  Maybe someone doesn't like my bits.  But there are lots of other reasons why they might like or dislike sex with me.  We'll find that out as we go, and we're both free to leave the relationship at any time if we find out something that we can't deal with.  Some people would never be able to deal with a trans person's genitals.  Others would after time.  Others would right away.  I see this as part of the relationship fact-finding, not something I need to share immediately.

I will allow that I'm pretty bisexual.  I don't have a particular preference for any sex of genitals.  Maybe that colors my view.  But there are so many reasons to end a relationship - the sexual stuff I mentioned above, all kinds of non-sexual stuff - that I don't know why I should privilege this thing.  

And that gets to the harm that you cite, too.  There are lots and lots and lots of things to know about a person.  Yes, sex is important.  But there are lots of other ways that you can 'think you know a person' or 'fall in love and then find out information that's a deal breaker'.  I don't think that I have to disclose trans status any more than I have to disclose all the other possible things that might be deal breakers for someone.

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by: b @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 18:43:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I, for one, don't justify myself...

Just because someone doesn't want to respect my wishes, doesn't mean I have to respect their wishes and play male for them.  

Tough turkeys, if that's what someone wants.

Hate stops a beating heart.

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by: KarenS @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 16:11:18 PM CDT

Play male?

There's no such thing as "playing" male unless you're an actor. There's masculinity and femininity and you don't HAVE to do anything. But actually being male or female you don't get to choose.

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 16:37:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes...

but other than in reproductive matters...what difference does a chromosome make in how we move through society, without getting into masculinity and femininity make?

That's the gender part.

I will acknowledge a "Y" chromosome (though I can no longer pass on gametes, snip, snip...) yet why would I be obligated to acknowledge maledom?  

Since I don't wish for my Y chromosome to be relevant to how the world perceives me, then of what relevance is it to the world  whether I have said same chromosome?

In other words, who cares?  Why even care?  I've yet to see something profound uttered on this matter.


Hate stops a beating heart.

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by: KarenS @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 16:54:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Two quotes by Edward Abbey...

Truth is merely common sense, say the naive realist. Really? Then where, precisely, is the location of--a rainbow? In the air? In the eye? In between? Or somewhere else?
---

Only a fool would leave the enjoyment of rainbows to the opticians. Or give the science of optics the last word on the matter.

Hate stops a beating heart.

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by: KarenS @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 17:03:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Huh?

Are you saing also that you chose to be gay? Did you chose to be gay? To say that trans people choose to be ignore their sex and choose to be trans is equivilent to saying gay folk choose to be gay folk.

You've stepped into a blog that has frequentyly covered intersexual and trans people related to biology. ZoeB above just spelled out an intersexual's response to your idea of a sex and gender dichotomy.

Basically, I'd suggest you need to do some reference reading if you want to have an intelligent, back and forth conversation here on sex and gender, especially related to intersex and/or trans people. Here at The Blend, you'd really need to read The Scientific Problem With Sex And Gender Dichotomies; Transgender? Transsexual? Trans-Ghettoized?; and Pam's House Blend's Terms of Service/Community Guidelines reboot to get a history of how we've discussed the science behind trans and intersex folk, and how we've come to rules on discussing sex and gender issues related to trans and intersexed people in the broader community.

At A.E.Brain, I'd strongly recommend reading Brain Gender Identity - a presentation by Dr Sidney Ecker, MD FACS; BiGender and the Brain; and Sex and the Brain -- again, more on brain sex. Zoe Brain is a scientist, and discusses the science of sex and brains in her blog very frequently.

Not knowing the history of how this blog's battles over discussions on transgender people and issues is going to hamper you if you don't grasp that we respect and embrace the entire lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community in this blog.

And too, having your statements here on sex and gender that not line up with what we scientifically know about sex and gender isn't a meaningful way to get a two-way conversation going on trans people and issues.

Please, do some reading.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 19:33:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're actually trying to cite scientific evidence? Pitiful.

Science backs up every single point I've made and your confirmation bias only serves to reinforce your delusions. I admit, my wording was incorrect when I said transgendered people choose to believe they are male or female despite their physical characteristics. That's obviously wrong. They have no choice in the matter, just as they have no choice in religion. It is all delusion after all.

The fact is that they believe themselves to be something other than what they are. If you strongly believe you are an alien and your neurology differs from that of other people who don't believe they are aliens, you are not an alien. If you had that belief, obviously it would be because of a combination of genetics that predispose you to delusional beliefs and environmental influences which fostered those beliefs. Since there is nothing in the mind that cannot be located in the brain, such delusions would find a place to store themselves and be expressed just as any other false belief. As has been demonstrated time and time again, brain structure is strongly influenced by environment and can lead to all sorts of delusional beliefs (religion being the most obvious) including the belief that you are a female with a penis without the ability to bear a child, without any evidence of female reproductive organs that are functional or otherwise. The brain only has an influence on the belief of one's gender, in other words, gender identity, not the actual gender, which is simply a measurable characteristic.

Perhaps you want to redefine what has been commonly held as the definition for male or female since the words were first conceived and pretend that someone who has an adamant delusion that they are one gender or another is always right? Animals are readily determined to be male, female, asexual, or other regardless of whether they are or not they are self-aware. If gender of someone is based on their beliefs, how can we determine the gender of animals?

All the scientific studies and books you cite put forth the same points which do nothing to even provide evidence against my case. Genetics and environment both contribute to a gender identity that differs from their actual gender, but it doesn't make their gender different than what it is. This is the only rational conclusion that can be drawn from modern scientific study of gender identity issues. I don't need to read more of the same. Genetics and environment. Gender IDENTITY changes based on these factors and can change throughout someone's lifetime. Gender itself does not. That's a fact.

Sexuality is entirely different and it's sad that the transgender cause gets lumped in with homosexuality and bisexuality because they are entirely different. It demeans the legitimacy of sexuality-based progressiveness. Homosexuality is not about which gender you identify with. Gay men who are bottoms do not necessarily identify with women. They are men who are attracted to men and are bottoms. They are not trying to pretend they are female when they have a penis. The same cannot be said about men who undergo hormone replacement therapy after they are convinced that they are a woman with none of the characteristics which define a woman. Having a penis at birth means you are a hermaphrodite or man. Nothing can change this-get over it.

Honestly, I thought there'd be a real discussion, but you are all insisting that gender isn't what everyone since the dawn of time has defined it as: that there are two major genders, male and female and that these are characterized by reproduction not the ridiculous delusion that despite the fact YOU HAVE A WORKING PENIS capable of producing a child with a WOMAN you are somehow a woman just because you think so.

You can quote all the scientific material you want. All that brain structures of transgendered people being similar to the sex they think they are suggests is that someone who believes they are a certain gender will have been influenced by genetics and environment to the point that their brain becomes more similar to the opposite gender. Chromosomes and hormones similarly do not predict gender. Hormones can change wildly (and yet gender does not). Chromosomes do not necessarily predict physical appearance.

Yes, I'm certainly in the wrong place for intelligent discourse or education as you've offered nothing to even put my opinions into question and that is simply because you're delusional.

Again, the facts for those who are delusional and probably won't know the difference and will justify their misconceptions 'til the day they die: gender/sex and gender identity are not necessarily the same, gender/sex cannot be determined by looking at the brain mainly due to delusional beliefs, i.e. gender identity that does not conform with actual gender, chromosomes are very accurate but not perfectly accurate in determining the gender of an individual, gender is determined through physical characters not including the structure of the brain, if you have a penis and a penis only you are a man. Seriously, it's that simple.

Go ahead, dress up like a girl, pump yourselves full of drugs that make you look as girly as you want, get boob jobs and facial reconstruction surgery and all that if it makes you happy but whether or not you cut off your fully functional penis and mold it into some beef curtains, you are a man and nothing will change that today, the least of which, your delusional beliefs. But when you pretend you are a woman when you have a penis and your partner gets outraged when you are about to have sex and they realize you're a man, it's entirely your fault for being deceptive by not disclosing your uncommon lifestyle that results from delusional beliefs.

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by: manlove @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 21:03:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's Scary How Common a Belief That Is

Sexuality is entirely different and it's sad that the transgender cause gets lumped in with homosexuality and bisexuality because they are entirely different. It demeans the legitimacy of sexuality-based progressiveness. Homosexuality is not about which gender you identify with. Gay men who are bottoms do not necessarily identify with women. They are men who are attracted to men and are bottoms. They are not trying to pretend they are female when they have a penis.

It's sad how common the mainstream's beliefs are regarding gays, lesbians, and transgendered people.  Before I came out, my parents and their friends used to always wonder why gay men "wanted to be women".  They truly believed that was why all men were gay and that lesbians "wanted to be men".  There was no malice there, they were genuinely baffled by it.  As a teenager, I wanted to scream, "I don't want to be a woman, I love being a man, I just want to screw other men."  But, I didn't.  Most teenagers don't - you're still not sure enough about yourself until you know for certain.  

Now that they know I'm gay, and they realize how common it is because of the people they've met, they believe that transgendered people are really just gays that can't accept themselves.  Again, I know them and there is absolutely zero malice (they just seem confused by the whole thing because they don't understand changing the genitalia when you could live, work, and act either gender) but there just isn't enough education on the topic.  They'll make comments asking why a transgendered man or woman won't just "be gay" because it's much more accepted now.

That thinking harms everyone - it takes away from the legitimacy of the transgendered rights movement, and from understanding gays and lesbians, as well.  If I remember correctly, a few months ago, there was a spirited discussion (I think that's putting it politely) about the role of gays, lesbians, and transgendered people and whether or not they should be included in the same political group.  I never realized there were so many strong feelings on both sides (I just always took it for granted).  I think some other blogger had written an article about it and Pam commented on it, which got everyone talking.

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by: GoldTopHat @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 21:29:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

P.S. Okay, I'll Bite

I'm trying to fully understand what you're saying.  I'm also going to take a big leap and assume that you are at least writing in good faith to have a discussion.  I'm probably being completely naive.  It's possible you are a 13 year old group of boys who are bored at a party.  (I think the tip-off was use of the phrase "beef curtains" to describe a woman's reproductive system.)  Nevertheless, I want to at least attempt to figure out exactly what you're arguing in the off chance you are legitimate.

Are you saying that "gender" and "gender identity / expression" are two separate things?  That gender is fixed at birth (male, female, or intersex) and that gender identity can be anything the person chooses to express based on their own feelings and beliefs?  

In other words: I was born white.  Even if I have drastic cosmetic surgery to alter my appearance to African American, and I live as an African American, I am not, in fact, African American because my blood and DNA are white and that to believe any other way is delusional?  

Or this: I'm gay.  My "sexual orientation" and my "sexual expression" could be different.  No matter how many women I sleep with (even if I slept exclusively with women), it wouldn't change the fact I am gay.  Five hundred children, thirty wives, ten thousand concubines - no matter how many I slept with or produced, the reality is, I am wired as a homosexual.  Men do it for me, emotionally and physically, whereas women do not.

Is that what you are trying to postulate and it's just coming out offensive because you have no exposure to transgendered people?    

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by: GoldTopHat @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 21:42:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well

He has clearly no clue about science, gender, sex or anything else and confuses his beliefs with facts.

He talsk about science and then uses "common sense" arguments ("It is because it is"). If it were scientific, where are citations?

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by: Chris From Old Europe @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 22:05:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

bye bye

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 23:18:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Trolls have their uses

I don't believe he was one though: just a standard transphobic gay male, like many others.

He gave me an opportunity to state some facts that others have found useful.

I found his re-definition of terms like "asexual" confusing (no, it's not a synonym for "sterile"). This re-definition was absolutely necessary though so he could call trans people "delusional" and "deceptive" - which was the whole point. Starting from a pre-determined, pre-judged (in Latin pre judice) conclusion, then re-defining terms and ignoring cases like mine in order to shore it up.

It attempted to be internally consistent, defining 4 sexes - fertile inseminators, fertile inseminated, those who are both, and those who are neither. It missed out those parents who required technical help (such as those women who can't carry children, but can donate eggs, or those men with micropenis, but at least one partly functional testis who can have gametes extracted via syringe), and it also implied that gays and lesbians who are psychologically unsuited for hetereosexual intercourse aren't "real" men or women, as they lack the ability to inseminate or be inseminated through intercourse - unless through rape. I'm sure he didn't see that as an inescapable conclusion of his re-definition of the terms, but it was there. It sometimes attributed "magical significance" to configuration at birth, at other times not. Pubescent children would all be classed as "asexual" for example, until their fertility reached some threshold only he could define, regardless of their sexuality. Men who were sterile via vasectomy would be men, but those sterile from birth, asexual.

It just seemed mightily confused on the whole.

What saddens me is that there are just as many rabid homophobes amongst trans people as there are rabid transphobes amongst gays. And Intersexed people who are both, while themselves being despised as freaks by gays and straights alike.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

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by: ZoeB @ Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:54:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes, saddens me too.

I don't like, but I do recognize, the validity of your comment regarding transphobes in the gay subcommunity of the LGBT community, and homophobes in the trans subcommunity. We have a broad community where the subcommunity members don't seem to embrace each other as whole human beings, and part of a broader community.

I like to think in terms of MLK Jr.:

The good neighbor looks beyond the external accidents and discerns those inner qualities that make all men human and, therefore, brothers.

I would have said it with more gender neutral terminology these days, (like make "all people human" and "therefore siblings"), but the point is still clear: Seeing civil rights as human rights means we treat others with a deference to their humanity.


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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 07:24:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Cis Gendered and Straight

I have not read the article and probably never will but it does seem Transphobic to me, based only on what was presented in this thread.

Just a couple of observations on previous posts.

Now "manlove" may or may not be a troll but he does need to check his "facts".

I have done enough research on the subject to know that Zoe B is probably correct in her post about genetics and how there are differences in the brains between the genders. She did cite the studies. (a part of me is saying well duh on that last one).

I have some experance with MtF Transgendered women. A couple of lunches and dinner with several of them. (Dinner was in DC in May after a day of lobbying and I was the one who the kid was dropping grapes on.)

That in no way makes me an expert on the subject. Autumn, ZoeB, and Dyssonance are the experts that come to mind. I do consider myself better informed the most other Cis Straight males on this subject.

Disclosure is a touchy subject but one that needs to be addressed. Since it carries risk for the Transgendered person. Each year this month those who may have disclosed to early or to the wrong person are remembered. The worrying thing is Derek may now have been outted and that could be dangerous for him. This is perhaps the most troubling part to me of the article.

I think that there can be no hard and fast rule when to disclose other than when both parties are ready.

I can tell you that the wrong time is when the skirt or pants come off for the first time.

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by: WackoTheSane @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 18:08:49 PM CDT

About what I expected

I spotted the magazine on a newsstand, saw that there was a trans-related story, and expected to be confronted with ignorant/borderline transphobic sensationalism. Needless to say I wasn't surprised...
In the department of being careful what one wishes for, I'd actually written to Seventeen a couple of months ago asking them to run more stories on trans issues (specifically, those facing young transwomen; I started reading Seventeen to try to get a sort of primer on being a teenage girl, since my cis peers have nineteen years' experience of it that I don't). And, well, they DID, although I admit this wasn't quite what I'd hoped for.
On the other hand, we transfolk are hardly their core demographic, so I guess it isn't terribly surprising that their writing on trans issues isn't especially enlightened.

Trans and proud, albeit closeted.

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by: Anne @ Sun Oct 25, 2009 at 20:05:29 PM CDT

Some folks took issue

with my stating the former poster was a troll.

As someone who has the ability to establish their position is indeed, lacking in merit, and founded in sexism and prejudice using their own words -- something I've done here many a time in the past -- I could indeed have taken them on point by point.

The problem is that this is not a simple subject, and especially when you get into scientific basis behind it, where the language used in the description is, itself, somewhat transphobic in the sense of the trans community and its perception of said language.

That takes someone gifted in understanding and crossing freely between the scientific and the colloquial uses of such language -- anyone can attain such but it takes time and effort to do so.

Postings such as the first one they made -- the first ever in their account -- are endemic, and yet when many of us engage in the action of education on issues, we are informed we are too harsh (tone arguments), or that our being intensely insulted by the presentation is somehow of less value than our willingness to be insulted.

There are certain structures that were used that were used specifically to arouse anger and cause hurt -- they were used repetitively, as well, in various forms, and that told me all I needed to know.  The fact that they created the account for the purpose of insulting people (their first post here was their first post ever) told me a great deal as well -- there was no good faith in the posting -- it was meant to arouse anger and establish a defensive position in others.

Trolls seek to foment dissension -- in some cases that can be a good thing.  For folks like Zoe, like myself -- we can use such things as an excuse to reach the audience that is not immediate -- those who don't post but merely read.

However, the harm that trolls cause -- the price one pays for having that excuse when you can use the same excuse in any context of LGBT information at any time by simply understanding enough about all the various parts of the LGBT community -- is far worse and harmful, for it is the internal version of spreading lies, since the sum total of what they stated were lies.

To understand why the lies spoken by our opponents in marriage equality are always so successful, look to that post.  IT sounds good, it makes it sense, it validates feelings in many people -- as one poster pointed out in defense of the troll, they didn't feel that the troll's statements were all that incorrect (until new information was given that, even as a member of the community, they hadn't taken the time themselves to go out and learn, being satisfied with what they knew already).

The way that their words make a lot of cisGLB folks feel -- that sense of "yeah, that sounds good, why is everyone ganging up on them?" -- is the same feeling that our opponents in issues on Equality -- illustrated by the fight for marriage equality right now, and the battle to keep an already passed ordinance in place in Kalamazoo -- are instilling in the minds of the typical voter.

With the same degree of success. Meaning we get some of the way, but not all the way, and the lies keep coming back because they aren't the end.

TO truly change that, you have to take additional approaches, including, at times, ignoring trolls and their lies (once in a while, not always) when you see it all the time, and instead addressing the emotional context involved.

Speak to commonality of hope -- speak to the acceptance and the positive possibilities, instead of just spending all your energy speaking to the lies.

Because when you do tat, all you end up doing is forever playing a game of defense, and never getting a chance to play on offense.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:34:12 AM CDT

Transphobia

Regardless of what's been said so far,I think and feel that if someone wants to date or have a relationship one should be honest about themselves to another.
If one isn't ashamed of who they are and expect to have respect and trust for who they are by others one has to be open and honest about who they are in the beginning of any relationship in order to have it.Of course that goes for any kind or type of relationship.

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by: Dee @ Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 17:52:23 PM CDT

Honest and open = Disclosure?

Maybe this thread is dead, but I've seen this a couple of times in these comments:  Are you arguing that to be open and honest in a relationship requires disclosure of trans status at the beginning of a relationship?  Does that mean that, if I don't disclose early in a relationship, I'm being dishonest about who I am?  

If so, I really can't disagree more.  I am a man.  I present as a man - not a trans man, not a man who used to be viewed as a woman, just a man - and that is the way for me to open, honest, and authentic about myself.  I don't need to share the intimate details about my medical history in order to be 'open and honest', any more than anyone else needs to disclose their full medical history during the getting-to-know-you stage.  Also, when is the 'beginning of the relationship'?  Who gets to decide when that is?

I don't view 'trans' as particularly part of my identity.  That is, when I disclose, I don't talk about my trans status as an identity marker, or mark it off as something special that I'm sharing about myself.*   Instead, I might talk about the physical details of my body or the ways I have sex.  But everyone has their own way of talking about their own bodies, and this is mine.  My story might be less common, but everyone's experience of and way of talking about their own body is unique - so I'm not special in having a story to tell about my physical self.  I might talk about my pre-trans past, too, but even then, for me, I'm just talking about my past, just like anyone else.  The 'open and honest' part is talking about my experiences, not specifically addressing the trans aspect of them.

Just to reiterate from my comments above:  I think disclosure will happen in most long-term relationships, and I don't care when anyone chooses to disclose.  But no one gets to make that decision except each trans person, no one gets to pass judgment on anyone else's decision, and language about deception or honesty is never appropriate.

*This is probably different for other trans people who feel that 'trans' is a part of their identity.  For them, 'open and honest' might require early disclosure.  That's fine, but it's certainly not true for all trans people.

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by: b @ Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 18:14:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Implication of dishonesty in living as one's self

By saying that not disclosing is dishonest (which is necessary to say that disclosure is honest), one is saying that the life one lives post transition is not honest and not open -- in short, that one is indeed deceiving and engaging in trickery, because you "aren't really" what you are living as.

Not disclosing is not dishonest.  Indeed, it can be very honest -- many trans folk never disclosed that they were trans before they transitioned to spouses.  By furthering the idea of disclosure as a requirement you engage in saying that trans people are deceptive either before transition or after it, and often both.

Disclosure is a personal matter of personal privacy.  It is not keeping a secret anymore than not talking about a tonsilectomy at the age of 5 is a secret.

The only good rule is that each trans person needs to decide for themselves, on terms they are comfortable with, at a point in a relationship where they are comfortable.

No one has a right to know anyone's medical history.

Anything else requires either projection of one's personal values or some form of discriminatory claim over the lives of others in terms of propriety.


http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 18:30:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Transphobia

I'll be the first to agree that disclosing ones curcumstances and situations is up to each individual.I've hid my trans.status from family and society all my life til I just couldn't live the way society expected me to anymore.
It took me almost 4 decades to open up and be honest with family and society.Even though society is slow to learn or some just can't accept the reality of life and existance I have an interpeace within myself I never did before.
I personally don't date since I'm still transitioning and that's my choice.It isn't easy having a personal relationship with anyone without being honest.
Let's say one starts a relationship and grows fond of the person their seeing be it a phyical attraction or just merely as friends and one wasn't open with that person about who they are til later in the relationship and then when the person is finally told the truth.They don't want to have anything to do with you.Not because one maybe different but because the person feels betrayed by the other and the person not having any trust in the other.
Everyone is looking for love and acceptance in one form or another but how can one find it if their not open and honest about themselves to others.
How can society gain knowledge and understanding and eventually acceptance of reality if no one wants to say or do something about helping to change things?

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by: Dee @ Fri Oct 30, 2009 at 14:18:17 PM CDT

They've changed the form letter they're sending out

Dear [Insert Name Here],

Thank you so much for taking the time to write to us in response to the November article "My boyfriend turned out to be a girl." We are grateful for your thoughtful feedback, and we're taking your reaction very seriously.

At Seventeen, we are committed to supporting and embracing all girls, everywhere, including the LGBT community. We are working with leaders from GLAAD to further discuss LGBT issues, and how we can best reach out to teens who may have been hurt or disappointed by this coverage.

Our hope in sharing Sheri's story in this article wasn't to focus on "Derek" or his gender identity--it was to share the universal feelings that EVERYONE can relate to when it comes to their first love: being a part of something all-new and bigger than yourself; hoping your relationship won't change or end; and the feelings of betrayal that you feel when you think you've been misled. The details of Sheri and Derek's story revealed an important universal truth: All teens are struggling to figure out who they are--and whom they can trust.

In no way did we intend to alienate or judge anyone--to the contrary, our goal was to connect our readers who are on either side of a relationship like Sheri's: We want to show them that it is normal and universal to want to keep some things private--and that it's just as normal and universal to feel hurt when you find out facts you didn't know about someone close to you.

In our efforts to convey Sheri's authentic experience, we regret that we missed an opportunity to provide background about transgender people and the difficulties they often face in being who they are. It was never our intent to sensationalize this story or make negative assumptions about transgendered people.

We hope you'll re-read the story with a new understanding for our intentions, and that you'll continue to share your feedback on this or future articles in Seventeen. We are grateful for the discussions our articles generate among readers, and the feedback we get from readers with all kinds of perspectives.

Many thanks again for your thoughtfulness and time,
The Editors of Seventeen

There's a whole heap of "but we didn't mean to be offensive/you just didn't understand" right there, but nope, no admission that denying trans identities and calling us liars is actually offensive.

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by: dysperdis @ Fri Oct 30, 2009 at 17:39:47 PM CDT

Transphobia

Their letter shows what I've said before about things being said by others and they end up losing money over it.They comeback saying something hoping to smooth things over hoping they'll get business back they lost and an attempt not to lose even more business.When it comes down to it they aren't any different then all the others before them.
All they care about is making money and as I've written a few corporations either telling them of my disgust over their ignorance,prejudice and bias or commending them for stating againist it.Theirs no profit in ignorance,
prejudice or bias.I guess Seventeen is learning that.

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by: Dee @ Sat Oct 31, 2009 at 20:33:59 PM CDT

This article would be better titled "My BOYFRIEND turned out to be <i>dating an idiot!</i>"

I notice that this article is not listed on their website:
http://www.seventeen.com/magaz...
is this normal, or has it been removed?

I think that I shall go to the library and look through this issue, and make a list of advertisers. They too could get a copy of a letter of concern. It is good to appeal to the editor's sense of duty, but why not throw in a little financial incentive from angry advertising clients?

This article is just one in a long series of stories about "deceptive" trans people - none of whom have actually "deceived" anyone, as outlined below. Newspaper articles from late 1800s San Francisco tell of (male) sailors caught with MtF-spectrum prostitutes, all of whom swore up and down that they have been fooled. Most of Billy Tipton's exes claimed they had no idea that he was assigned-female. I see these stories over and over with both lovers and sex workers. And in all these cases, there are two possibilities:

1 - The cis person knew that their lover or sex-partner was trans, but now that their relationship is public, want to deny it to maintain an image of flawless cis-heterosexuality.

2 - The cis person is both ignorant and oblivious. I admit that it is possible to go on assuming that your pre/non-operative transsexual lover is cissexed (despite the fact that ze never claimed to be cissexed), but you have to be pretty dense.

Even if the article was terrible, we can take heart that "Derek" is seeing someone else now. Sheri threatened his new girlfriend? If that's what she's willing to tell, what is she leaving out of her side of the story?

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by: inkstainedfingers @ Sun Nov 08, 2009 at 14:40:03 PM CST