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(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

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Senate hearing to repeal DADT scheduled for next month, Army Secretary suggests segregated units

by: Keori

Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 03:04:34 AM EDT


( - promoted by Louise)

Sen. Carl Levin's office announced on Friday that the Senate Armed Services Committee will hold hearings on repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell" in November, though his office did not name a precise date. Sen. Levin is chairman of the Committee. Those hearings come at the request of Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, after her attempts to add an amendment freezing investigations and discharges of troops to the Defense Authorization Act of 2010 was defeated. The hope is that these hearings will result in a companion bill to Military Readiness Enhancement Act, which currently has 182 co-sponsors in the House.

What was the Pentagon's response? Segregation (emphasis mine).

McHugh finds himself at the center of debate over Obama’s pledge to repeal the law banning open service by homosexuals.

In the interview, McHugh carefully avoided offering his personal views on the issue, saying his job now is to provide input to Obama on how to make the change and to talk with members of Congress about the issue.

Selling the idea to Congress, which has the final say, could depend on exactly what the administration tries to do in terms of the timing of repeal and how it is applied, McHugh said.

It’s possible, for example, that homosexuals could be allowed into some occupations or units but barred from others, McHugh said, stressing that he was not aware of any such plans but only discussing how the issue might play out.

I'm speechless. As a veteran, as a "Silent Partner," as an intelligence professional, and as a citizen of the United States of America I'm so personally offended that someone in the chain of command could actually suggest this that I'm for once at a complete loss for words.

When asked specifically if lifting the gay ban would seriously disrupt the military, as predicted by those who oppose repeal, McHugh said there is no reason to think major turmoil would ensue.

“Anytime you have a broad-based policy change, there are challenges to that,” he said. “The Army has a big history of taking on similar issues, [with] predictions of doom and gloom that did not play out,” he said.

So, despite no reason to think "major turmoil would ensue," Secretary McHugh still found it entirely appropriate to tell the Army Times that he supports segregation of LGBT troops.

This is the man President Obama appointed as the go-to guy for Army operations. This is our fierce advocacy. Is this that mysterious implementation plan that's been crafted during the magical Obama 17 dimensional chess game between the White House and the Pentagon? The Army Secretary is sending the message to his Commander-in-Chief that segregation is okay, if we just sell it to Congress right. This was suggested in 1993, during Clinton's disastrous attempt at openly gay service. It was dropped as unthinkable. How on earth can it be possibly be acceptable now, in 2009?

I don't even know what to say. I'm so outraged I can't respond right now. To hear such a callous, base, sordid thing suggested of my Beloved, of someone so brave, so smart, so caring for her subordinates and supportive of her team, someone who exemplifies the core values of honor, integrity, excellence, courage, service before self, loyalty, commitment, and duty...I just can't. There are no words.

Keori :: Senate hearing to repeal DADT scheduled for next month, Army Secretary suggests segregated units
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Ugh
Did I really just read that the Army Secretary suggests segregated units?

Did we hop back to the 18th century all of a sudden?

If you're willing to shoot and kill and shed blood and die for your country, I'd think the last thing you should worry about is some gay guy looking at you from your own lines.

"Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion, you must set yourself on fire!"


I just read something on this at queerty, or AmericaBlog
I've been darting about a lot...it was GayAmericaBlog
   http://gay.americablog.com/200...

Army Secretary: Pentagon could lift ban partially but still ban gays from some units
Posted by John Aravosis

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


Declare yourself!
Beyond the absurdity of segregation as a concept... is the absurdity that people "declare" their sexuality upon enlistment so that you can be segregated. DoD moves from not asking, to telling specifically. Will orientation be on ID cards? Will troops wear a pink triangle on their uniform? Many 18 year olds enter the service never considering that their sexuality is anything other than the "right" one, only to discover after leaving home that there are other options. Do they report themselves to the first sergeant so that they can be reclassified (and issued the pink triangle?).  

Lessons Unlearned
Perhaps we should remind the US Military of the Afrikaans word for segregation: apartheid. The apartheid that barred Blacks from serving in many units has already been eliminated, and the apartheid that still bars women from doing the same is slowly being dismantled. It seems that the military is scrabbling for the right to still discriminate against someone and, since they'll let in convicted drug dealers, wife-beaters and paedophiles, LGBTs are about all that's left.

____________________________________
Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum.


Actually...
he did not even speculate about segregated units. His comment was about preventing LGBT soldiers from serving in certain specific units, the same way that women are barred from some units.

He did not even advocate the position and even went so far to state that such a policy was not even under consideration.


[ Parent ]
I was wondering when someone was going to point that out
When you read the actual article, it's clear he's not advocating that approach at all, merely saying that even in other controversial issues, there were ways to move forward with progress.  He goes to great lengths to explain that they aren't considering such an approach, it's never been discussed, and it's merely an example of something that's been done in the past to implement a policy change people said would never happen.

We are just now having a serious discussion about letting women serve on long submarine deployments in the United States Navy.  It's 2009.

I think this was a case of reactionary hysterics. It's the same sort of "lift quote" and "take out of context" practice the radical right wing uses on Kevin Jennings.  It hurts our credibility as a movement.


[ Parent ]
Reactionary historics has become the norm.
I'm so glad someone actually took the time to read what McHugh  said. Not that it matters to a good number of people. I've grown accustomed this to the LGBT community screaming the sky is falling without going anywhere near the facts. And even when presented with them pretend that they don't exist. And IT DOES hurt our credibility. In the worst way. It certainly reveals a lack of education far deeper than one ever imagined. It's gotten so I can't hold a conversation on the "issues" with a good number of people I know. What is it? Up until this year I just don't recall my community being so so so...vacant? I've always prided the gay community as intelligent, highly educated, shrewed and a well read group of people.

But right after Obama became president---that all changed. Suddenly people became screaming harpies every five minutes at some sensationalist headline or misquote or at something taken completely out of context---without ever taking the time to digest or research what they thought they read or were told.  

AND IT'S NOT CUTE.  


[ Parent ]
What are these people afraid of?
Gays and lesbians are already serving side by side with their "straight" comrades. There is this thing called the UCMJ that covers misconduct we don't need segregation or disqualification from certain career fields.  

Are they segregating the undesirables they are enlisting since they have lowered the requirements standards?


Ignorance of the Older Generation
My brother is in the military and has served oversees as part of the wars several times.  He said that everyone in his units knows who they gays and lesbians are, know who their partners are, and they have to just pretend like they don't because the older officers (40+ and up) freak out about the whole notion.

He said it's basically a big game of pretend with a huge generational divide.  It's such a joke that they kid one of his coworkers (who is FLAMING) that he "tells" every time he opens his mouth or takes a step.  Yet, if anyone were to actually say it out loud in front of the wrong person, it could end their careers.  


[ Parent ]
Wow
Completely speechless

Mess stewards, maybe?
Like the embarrsing treatment that the US Navy handed to personnel of colour?

I captained a patrol boat in the Armada Espanola off of the coast of Africa and south of the Straits of Gibraltar. Storms, hurricanes, and heated gunfire exchanges with ships smuggling arms to the disputed part of what used to be Spanish Morocco. I lost men in front of my eyes and was badly wounded myself, my boat was honoured by the presence of the Queen standing on the quay upon our return

I was a Naval Advocate after I took my degree in Law. Should I have been "segregated?"
Should I have been in queer only designated assignments, like tasteful window dressings for officers quarters or whatever the Secretary of the Army thinks that it is that gay people might be good at?

I don't think that the Armada would have considered itself enriched if I had serve as a volleyball line ref as opposed to a Capitan given that they commended me for the latter.

Would the Cold War era waters off of the Straits and south of Cadiz/Rota. Algeciras been safer from Soviet boats(subs) had a less qualified Capitan been out there playing "tag and track and annoy" while I repaired diesles or some other stereotypically Lesbian pursuit?

Or is it just that we need to be isolated somewhere?
I was already at the most isolated Spanish base, but the Canarias was hardly a painful place to be. The US, with its vast colonial empire, though, has plenty fo truly unpleasant places to "quarantine" LGBT's

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid


Different assignments or different barracks?
That quote was purposefully vague. Did he mean that there would be separate gay quarters, or would gays not be allowed to serve on claustrophobic submarines?

Everyone in the armed forces is there serving and saving the people in this nation. Most are there to facilitate career education. Others are there because they don't know how to do anything else and need to keep busy.

Nobody should be worried about who is sleeping with whom. Everyone in the armed forces should be focused on their job.

Should a straight female soldier preoccupy her mind with thoughts of which straight males visited prostitutes or strip clubs while on leave? No; they would be too skeeved out to do their duty.

When will the neanderthals-in-charge of the military policies evolve and get real? PRIORITIES! PRIORITIES!

...Ready to Go!!


I guess the tanks
need interior decor. You know, patterns and all that shit.



This would be a great "Jocelyn Elders" moment
for Obama.

That type of rhetoric at this time would send a signal that these type of discriminatory statements will not be tolerated by this Administration.


He did not say anything...
intolerable. He stated a possible way that ending the ban might play out but then quickly pointed out that no such initiative existed. It was pure speculation and he did not even provide any support for the statement. Furthermore, his statement is in keeping with the military's current policy that prevents women from serving in certain units.

People were too quick to fixate on this minor bit of speculation when in fact his larger point was that repealing DADT was certainly workable.


[ Parent ]
If such a possibility wasn't even under consideration
Then why did he bring it up at all? McHugh is not the first person in the COC (that's "Chain of Command" for people like SciFi Geek, who've never served) to voice such a possibility.

Let's not forget that McHugh was a GOP Congressman before being tapped for Army secretary. We all know how those people are.

Websters defines segregation as 2 a : the separation or isolation of a race, class, or ethnic group by enforced or voluntary residence in a restricted area, by barriers to social intercourse, by separate educational facilities, or by other discriminatory means. Hmm, forcing people in one immutable class into separate housing, barring them from certain jobs, barring them from certain units...sure sounds like it fits Websters definition of segregation.

Segregated marriage is just fine with this Administration, so why not segregated service?

The trouble with segregated service is that promotion and progress in the military rely largely on leadership in combat or other tactical units. Keeping gay people in non-combat and staff units means that, once again, we are barred from equal opportunity treatment. Not to mention it's patently absurd to believe that gay people can't possibly measure up to straight people.

As for the "women in combat" issue, the main problem was not the old adage of "women just can't cut it on the front lines!" Leadership was afraid that "sexual tension" would lead to problems in unit. Which is why women were officially barred front line combat units (though they were "attached" while desperate commanders look the other way) and from service on board submarines. Well, the women-on-subs ban is on its way out the door, so says the Department of the Navy, and not only are women fully integrated on the ground in Iraq and Afhghanistan out of necessity, but the reality of dual-military straight married couples in the same zone has prompted the Army to give married couples their own "hootches." Nothing has done more to promote repeal of DADT than women on the ground. Consensual sex happens in war zones, and the military has not fallen upon and devoured itself because of it.

Promoting the idea of segregated units - no matter how faint the possibility - is hateful bigotry, pure and simple.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
Actually...
The trouble with segregated service is that promotion and progress in the military rely largely on leadership in combat or other tactical units. Keeping gay people in non-combat and staff units means that, once again, we are barred from equal opportunity treatment. Not to mention it's patently absurd to believe that gay people can't possibly measure up to straight people.

I know all of this and actually agree with your basic premise. I've long belived that it was unfair to keep women locked into support non-combat roles for that very reason.

What part of military+patently absurd strikes you as out of the ordinary?  


[ Parent ]
Absolutely nothing
Probably because, unlike you, I actually live in that world full time and am aware that, as religious people, conservatives, stupid people, and Michelle Bachmann do, bigots in power will believe and enforce all sorts of patently absurd things if it will validate their bigotry.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

[ Parent ]
There IS a final solution....
This bears repeating...ALL LGBT troops come out NOW. Rosa Park your collective selves in the front seat of the HUMVEE. The window of opportunity to end DADT for good is in the hands of LGBT service members.
http://www.objector.org/FUK___...

par for the course
Let's not forget that the military already treats all women this way, segregating them out of certain units and jobs. Repealing DADT is just one step towards ending systematic discrimination in the military.

Exactly...
This is not unusual for the military. They already place restrictions on women in serving in certain units. Those policies are quietly being dismantled but the point is that they are there.  

[ Parent ]
Nothing about "segregation"
Nothing in that comment said anything about "segregation." Segregation, a ridiculous idea floated during the Clinton fiasco, would involve creating all-gay units. I haven't heard anyone seriously suggest that since the Clinton fiasco.

What McHugh was suggesting was not segregation but partial lifting of DADT, opening some positions to openly gay servicemembers. It has been clear for a while now that the Obama team was toying with this kind of "compromise" nonsense. But it would be a partial lifting of the ban not "segregation."

I'm all for attacking the Obama team for stupid, cowardly ideas. But we also need to stop twisting their statements into something else entirely.


segregation
The proposal that has not been proposed segregates straight people into their own units.  

[ Parent ]
the cure for a lot of discrimination is a little less discrimination
F*CK THIS!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


We need all our skilled linguists to say in every language
How do you say....BITE ME?

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
...and just what...
...will the US military have these segregated units doing?  Flower arranging?  Interior decoration?  Fashion designers for the uniforms?  Surely not sending them to the front lines, where enemy intelligence will probably have them targeted...or maybe that's the whole point.

Funny how LGBT people are completely integrated up here in the Canadian Forces, with no real issues.


They want our attractive and creative service members to make commercials for hiking up enlistment


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
What we should tell Obama and Congress
You want segregated units...OK ON OUR TERMS
Squadrons of paired lovers trained as the most LETHAL NAVY SEAL techniques. A modern Sacred Band of Thebes, the toughest motherf*ckers of the Ancient World.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


Now, THERE'S a visual, the most famous gay battalion in history
Those guys destroyed the Spartan army at Tegyra. Never, ever say that gay soldiers are inadequate. Phillip II of Macedonia said of them, "Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

[ Parent ]
Fighter pilots in a squadron of lesbians would strike fear in the hearts of Muslim terrorists


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Air Amazons


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
HA!
And let me tell you, members of that elite group would instantly become the cultural icon of the gays.  And there would probably be about 8,000 really, really bad porn films made to the them.

[ Parent ]
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