You want pity because of Maine? You won't be getting it from me

Thanks Alvin!

I live in Maine and have completely succumbed to apathy this morning.  I'm going to spend the day getting over it and I will remember your words as I pick myself up and continue the fight.

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by: jgk62800 @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:34:08 AM CST

Hugs

Yup- everything you said.


Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

Click here for DADT photobook

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by: Louise @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:10:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Looking at the silver lining

I know a lot of people are saddened by the results in Maine, and so am I.  But, I can't help but feel happy.  Look at the number of people who spoke in our favor.  The margin was close, it shows us that we have allies out there who deem us human.  This kind of turnout would never have happened in the past.

Let the Yes on 1ers keep that smug look on their faces.  The margin was close.  If their churches hadn't been preaching hate and politics from the pulpit, it certainly would have gone a different way.  Behind that smug look is fear of the world they can no longer control and shame.

My main fear following this vote is mob mentality.  This re-energizes their base.  They're feeling like a majority again, and who knows what kind of shenanigans will ensue.  The only way we can stave off these ill effects is to continue our daily activism.  We have to continue coming out, showing that we are human, and just being who we are.  

Mainers, hold your head up high.  Your state is still great.  You did a lot better than my state of Texas would have!  

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by: flyerfier @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:46:07 AM CST

'The margin was close....

  "If their churches hadn't been preaching hate and politics from the pulpit, it certainly would have gone a different way."  And if the churches hadn't been raising funds with the church's collection plate, requiring parishioners to sign petitions at the end of church service, and placing Diocesan staff on sabbatical to run the campaign, it would have gone a different way. Because that political activity is illegal in a country that has separation of church and state. Exactly for this reason. These 'battles' will never be fair until we insist on a level playing field, by going after these church's and exposing the roles they play.


Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles, and see that the world is moving."
-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

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by: T2inDC @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:12:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The lesson they'll take from this

is that they can violate both the formal, public agreements they make and election and fundraising laws...and get away with it.  And they'll do the same thing elsewhere, because they know it works.  They can continue with their money-laundering and libel with no legal consequences -- so why would they stop?

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by: M @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:09:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Exactly. We have to pursue legal challenges

to these campaign violations. Period. Challenge the validity of this referendum. We loose and sulk away and leave these violations unchallenged. Each and every time. Of course why wouldn't they use these tactics time and time again. They work and because we let them.  

Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles, and see that the world is moving."
-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

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by: T2inDC @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:27:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Good points

I should also point out that not only is momentum (the slow aching progress of history) on our side, but momentum (the much faster momentum of things shifting from default=lose toward default=win) is too.

The professional bigots have been running around whining about the bigot label and crowing on how human and lovable gays are, they are even throwing up lies about how so for civil unions they are. This means that most of the organized anti-gay forces have realized that the public more and more accepts that gay people are human and what the anti-gay set is doing is not going to be the side history smiles upon. This was not the case even 5 years ago where open hate for homosexuals and cheerful smiling as civil unions burned were the name of the game.

The bigots are scared and that says something critical about where we are. The momentum we saw in 2009, with the 4 new victories under our belt belie that as well as the fact that this was as close as it was in a state that only 4 years ago only barely favored the notion that gays deserved to keep their jobs and be free from discrimination.

Let us never forget that we are very much on the cusp of transformational change for our community and I suspect we are beginning to enter eras where we will see more victories than losses (see tonight where Kalamazoo, WA, and a number of out gay mayoral races came through). Yes the first marriage battle to win at the ballot will deprive our enemies of a constant and evil tactic as well as mark a watershed moment overall, but the fact that this was not that time doesn't mean that the momentum (including that much faster momentum of the push towards equality and the energy of a motivated gay community) isn't still very much on our side.

Maine didn't notice, but the bigots have pretty much conceded the actual battle (that gays are people deserving of humane and equal treatment), they know as we do that they are just delaying the inevitable.

And we itch because we know it is not only inevitable, but soon.

In that note, I say fuck all moderation and full speed ahead. Put CA back on the ballot in 2010, fight in the legislators wherever and pass everything but the kitchen sink wherever we can.

P.S. Let's not forget that this election was historic in a crucial way. None of these fights were bigot induced. I don't mean to say they didn't backlash and drive the referenda, but that none were some bigot group passing a constitutional amendment or trying to pass an anti-gay bill or roll-back a long-held law. They were all reactions trying to snipe off our rolling wave of victories, the result of trying to block things we proactively passed.

If we want happier moments, we must continue to do this. Keep passing things and make them stand aside history and yell stop. It's the only way over the hump.

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by: Cerberus @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:50:05 AM CST

I'm in total agreement

I must admit I am disappointed in the results from Maine, however I am VERY proud of all the great work the was done there. My partner and I will continue to live our lives, showing people we are no different than anyone else. We will win this fight and I look forward to the day when we'll be able to get married...just like anyone else.  

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by: wagster1969 @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:51:15 AM CST

Lesson learned

Look, we have the support, almost across the board, of urban areas. It's high time that we took the message of Equality, Freedom and Security out of the cities and into the countryside, which is where we actually lost.

We didn't lose Maine so much as we lost rural Maine. And that is only because we, as a collective community, have not done meaningful outreach in rural communities. At this point, we don't even have to convince a majority of rural denizens of our inherent humanity. A fifth of them would have won us the vote.

It's on us to really make a dedicated effort to talk with rural and inner-city poor areas, to get over our community's (especially among gay men!) latent racism, sexism, and yes, even elitism. And we have to do this in ways that are respectful of the rural lifestyle, not with blazing parades, but quiet conversations.

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by: ChiTownDave @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:53:24 AM CST

No

Parade right through small town america, every small town america and continue to reach out to urban voters. Urban areas outnumber rural in population and all of this hate has one source and one source only.

Uncomfortability about sex.

And that can only go away the hard way, making them look directly at sexuality until they admit it and accept it. We can dress in our sunday best, we can talk about our families and minivans and how normal and boring we are, but that's just what the bigots fear and the so-called moderates just glaze right past it and just respond to their fears over sexuality.

Let's drown the bastards in sexuality so that there is nowhere left. Because once that barrier is breached, they don't go back to hating gays, they go to kink message boards and support policies that benefit everyone (pro-choice, pro-sex-education, pro-gay, pro-contraception).

I want a parade in every small town and I want it bigger every year. I want us to start having frank conversations about sexuality with our older relatives and make them face that which they fear.

They want to displace their sexual neuroses on us? Fine, let's give it to them a hundred fold. Because they are never going to even think about a loving couple as long as they still go into fits thinking about another man's penis.

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by: Cerberus @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:01:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I guess I'm "bi"

We didn't lose Maine so much as we lost rural Maine.

Parade right through small town america, every small town america . . .

What does it say about me that I agree with both of these sentiments???

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by: Ken in MS @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:28:21 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You ready to organize that then?

The traditional Gay Rights organizations are unable to launch an effective campaign like that in rural areas.

And even with urbanization, there is still going to be a significant rural population - enough to tilt the vote against us if we don't win at least some of them over. We're not realistically going to get more than three-quarters support in urban areas.

Time will help too, but only if we keep reaching out. Yes, getting people comfortable with the idea of sexuality is important, but they've already seen the Pride parade coverage. They know we're here. That's what they're upset about, particularly judging from the comments on Bangor Daily News!

I'm not outright rejecting the parades, but we need to be accessible to other groups as well. Express the message that they are neither more nor less sexual, neither more nor less human, than us. And that means there have to be our more extreme elements visible as well as our homebody families.

I give tremendous props to No on 1 for showcasing real live same-sex households.

A little media portrayal of us as our normal well-adjusted selves wouldn't hurt either. We're not all flaming queens, "str8-acting" closet cases and flamboyant hyper-sexualized trannies, as one might assume judging from our portrayals to date!

It might also help if our LG component was more sensitive and supportive to our B and T components. I'm glad there are sites like this one to help spread the word.

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by: ChiTownDave @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:21:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Hmm, not a bad idea

Maybe set up a traveling sex store fair. "Promoting healthy and safe sexuality for all families and ways of life." If they feel more comfortable with their sexuality, they'll be less open to lies about ours.

And there should be more rural Prides, maybe something like a Renn Faire, instead of asking all the rural people to go into the city to support, we host it out near them and the city comes to them. I know there was great success in Tulsa and there's some luck with Southern Prides so probably we should copy that nationally.

Beyond that, we definitely need to help people come out online and challenge our rural family members directly on sexuality and form them into activists so they can be our advocates in "hostile country". Much of this bigotry continues because there is no competing information, so those who are in rural areas for whatever reason should be groomed to do this.

It's also why we should all come out to any "ornery" family members. They might just be the type of no bullshit advocate that is willing to promote us in rural areas. I mean, if they're against us, they're already spouting crap against us, so why not see if they are amenable to equality?

I'm coming up with a list of possible ideas when I get back stateside.

I think we should also continue to work cities. We do kind of outnumber rural America and if we can get turnout high enough and strong enough for our side then the rural communities can vote their bigotries to meaninglessness.

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by: Cerberus @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 13:28:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Uncomfortability talking about sex?

Cerberus, you may be on to something.

May I make a complementary recommendation. After a lengthy conversation, one mother I'd spoken with while campaigning against Prop 8 made it very clear that her real fear was that she didn't know how to talk with her children about same-sex relationships. Her immense fear of starting the discussion with her children was obvious, even over the phone.

As it is, many parents are uncomfortable talking about sex and relationships with their children, yet it's a critical part of parenting. The specter of having to discuss same-sex relationships, a topic lost on many parents, raises their discomfort level that much higher. Perhaps this may be the reason why the Yes on 1/Yes on 8 campaigns were effective. "Your kids might be taught about same-sex relationships, and you don't know anything about the subject -- fear this."

We need to help these parents. We as a community need to provide parents with neutral, factual, scientifically-based resources that will help them to understand the realities of same-sex relationships, and to be able to comfortably discuss the subject with their children.

These resources would be important even without Prop 8 / Question 1 type campaigns. Same sex relationships are here to stay -- it's important that our children be prepared for the world as it is. Children's parents play the most important role, and we as good citizens need to help all parents to raise the next generation of good citizens.

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by: politidana @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 22:52:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A big thank you and hug.........

"To all the campaign workers, the volunteers, the bloggers - everyone who worked their tail off in pursuit of our equality" I've never seen anything like this pure grassroots effort, that came directly from the heart of each and every one of you. For that I extend my heartfelt gratitude and appreciation.

We won't give up. The Maine campaign showed us how it's done. The fight wasn't fair, but it will never be with the likes of the Maggie Gallagher's and Brian Browns. But they only front this 'hate' operation. We need to peel back the layers and expose who is really behind this effort. That's what we need to be doing NOW before the trail gets cold. That's the next battle!!

 

Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles, and see that the world is moving."
-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

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by: T2inDC @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 07:55:23 AM CST

You're right Alvin

I am your sister to the north in NC. I live in the infamous 5th district of Virginia Foxx. Maine came so close to making history. My partner of 25 years is from Maine and was so sure we were going to win. Things are getting better. We must continue the fight. Any time civil rights are left up to the voters, we will lose. I really don't understand how these things can even be put up to a popular vote! Rights will only come from the federal level, when it's not up to a popular vote. Continue to work hard and go on with your life. Change is coming!

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by: 31foxtrot @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:05:44 AM CST

new motto

MAINE
the way life should be*

*unless you're gay

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by: thankfullyMA @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:09:42 AM CST

new motto

"Maine.  The Mississippi of New England."

And I can say that because I'm from Mississippi!

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by: Ken in MS @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:30:01 AM CST

[ Parent ]

joining Rhode Island...

...which has already been dubbed the Arkansas of New England. We don't have voter initiative here, which has saved us from a lot of grief, at least.

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by: DubNotDubya @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 14:15:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not close at all

53% - 47% is not "close".  Obama won the Presidency by less than that and we called it a mandate.  This thing in Maine was a train wreck.

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by: Jake @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:18:05 AM CST

Have to agree with you

This was a close race? We have so much to be proud of?

Um, on what planet are people spending most of their time?

We lost in Maine by the same margin as we did in CA, and that was in a much less religious state, in a much smaller, homogenous state, after having outraised SFMM by 3 to 1, with a far superior ground game and organization.

This wasn't a "close race," it was a repeat of the first 31 times we did this, and the only thing we have to be proud of is that we ponied up and did this for the 32nd time. Well, that and the fact that Jesse Et Al ran a far superior campaign than No on 8.

This won't stop happening to us until bigoted christians die off. Bill in Portland Maine mentioned in this morning's C&J at the Great Orange Satan that the vote from university districts was 81% in our favor. That's the future. And we get to sit back and wait patiently for at least another 50 years for it to be assured.

Those of us here now don't have that long, and it's fucking awful that most of us are going to die before we see full citizenship rights.

And as an aside, a big fuck you to President Obama. He could stop sucking on Wall Street and Big Pharma's titty long enough to shill for Corzine and Deeds, who both lost, but he couldn't take 10 seconds to tell an intern, "Draft up a press release stating the White House's opposition to Question One in Maine."


God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:55:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I agree with everything you said

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by: Kringas @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:19:31 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Perfectly said, Keori

While I adore our beloved Louise, I really think it's time to lay to rest the tired meme about how "independent" and "progressive" most Maine residents are.  As was demonstrated last night, they are every bit as backward, cowardly, ignorant and superstitious as any other population in this priest-ridden Greatest Country in the World(TM).  Expecting Americans to act in a thoughtful, well-informed, progressive way is like expecting pigs to stop eating slop.  What else can you expect in a nation where politics is a matter of pandering to the electorate's lowest instincts?  While it's comforting to wallow in platitudes about how much work we still have to do, the repeated, ongoing homophobia we encounter at the ballot box gives the lie to everything this country claims to be.

As for Obama, last night's results will give him and his party all the cover they need to do nothing more for our community (not that they've done all that much in the first place).  Equality?  In the United States of Amerika?  Be serious.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:30:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes. Yes. And yes.

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by: CisgenderLesbianRadical @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 13:20:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Amen

You're so right. Yes, I'll continue to fight. But I'm so damn sick of being told that "we just need to keep fighting" and "we're getting closer." Because we still lose every time, and even when we win, they take it away. And of course Chris Christie won last night, so goodbye to any chance of marriage equality in New Jersey.

I'm tired of trying to be cheery after getting kicked in the teeth. I'm angry now, even though I'm appreciative of the efforts of the No on 1 people. Because we're now down to five states. In fifty years we may get this, but I'll probably be dead by then.

As for Obama, I'm just resigned to the fact that he doesn't give a rat's ass about us either way. If we'd won in Maine, Rahm and friends would have deemed the margin so small that it showed how risky the issue is. Our loss has the same impact.  

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by: guspup @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:07:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Embrace your anger.

Shall we organize more country-wide protests with Join the Impact?  What should we DO?  I'm SO upset and SO angry, and I need to be able to channel my anger into something instead of sitting here on the internet being too upset to do all the work that needs to get done today.  Thoughts?

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by: CisgenderLesbianRadical @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 13:23:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, but

you're missing the point. A few years ago we were losing even stronger "Blue" states like Oregon by almost 60%(!). Isn't it a huge swing to our side that we're down to 4-6 points? The margins are narrowing and they know they won't be able to block a victory for our side for much longer.

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by: Kokas @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:34:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yay?

How much longer is "much longer"?

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by: CisgenderLesbianRadical @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 13:21:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

As long as it takes to win

But based on Nate Silver's predictions, probably at some point in the 2010's.

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by: Kokas @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 14:12:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It doesn't happen overmight

Cisgender:

I applaud your fire and impatience at getting past this BS. But as someone with a couple of decades on you, I can tell you that it won't happen tomorrow, but it WILL happen, and when it does, and you look back on it, it WILL seem like it was overnight.

I believe you are in your early 20s? I have about 20 years on you--not old yet, I hope, but a lot has happened in that 20 years. When I was your age, we were knee-deep in AIDS, a plague that not only stole so many members of our community from us, but also energized the Right Wing into a lot of the brazenness we still see today. It was where they learned to associate us queers with a deadly, contagious disease that most folks were still so ignorant about, they were terrified, and so if Jerry Falwell told them that being nice to gay people would give you AIDS and you would die, well, they believed it. At the time, it was unfathomable to even imagine the turnaround in public opinion that's happened by now.

Would I have imagined, when I was your age, that domestic partnerships (at the time, the MOST any of us dared hope for; even imagining same-sex marriage was so far beyond the relam of possibility, nobody even thought it would occur in our lifetimes. there were rumors that you could go to Denmark and marry someone of your own sex, and everyone seemed to have a friend-of-a-friend who knew someone who had gotten married in Denmark...oh, how exotic and radical that seemed!) would be considered a proper thing by a MAJORITY of Americans--the "fallback" alternative to the prickly "marriage" issue, no less! If someone had told me when I was 22 that even right-wing churches would be, in the 2000 decade, saying domestic partnerships were OK (even as they argued with all their might and Bible thumping against true marriage equality), I would absolutely not have believed it. No way! I certainly would have laughed if someone had suggested that in a state like Iowa, it would be FULLY LEGAL to marry a same-sex partner, just like in a handful of other states.

I don't mean to ramble like and old turtle, and say "Well back in my day, we took our second-class citizenship and we LIKED it" etc... But my point is that we HAVE made great, great strides, in a very short time, historically. I promise, history always looks shorter looking back, than looking forward! Someday in your (and I hope in my) lifetime, young people will genuinely be dumbfounded that states would actually hold elections as to whether we could marry our partners, just as it seems so incredulous now to imagine a time when there was a well-organized movement against interracial marriage, or allowing women to vote.

I am so glad to see young folks like you coming along who WON'T rest of the strides we've taken since I was in your shoes (when it seemed that if we could JUST get domestic partnerships, we'd be A-OK). We NEED to keep that fire and that passion, and that anger (we old turtles can get complacent sometimes--I see THAT among folks a generation older than myself, and it frustrates me! Just as you are probably frustrated by my own age group) and to keep channeling it at those who can bring about the change.

I'm telling you that it WILL happen. Not as quickly as you want--as we all want--but it will come, and soon after, nobody will imagine what the big deal ever was (well, there will always be fringe groups--those attitudes already are becoming more and more "fringe"). Keep fighting, keep pushing, but don't drive yourself crazy just because we lose a few elections herre and there. The margins are already shrinking (don't forget, in your own lifetime, large numbers of people advocating quarantining gay people into "ghettos" because it was presumed that our existence as a public health hazard!), and MOST people now realize that simply loving someone of one's own sex has nothing to do with how good or bad a person is. Give it a generation, and a majority will see no problem with our having at least SOME degree of codification of our relationships. another generation after that, perhaps, and full marriage equality will be a given. Keep fighting, and make it happen!

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by: kmpintj @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 16:38:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Love bomb for Louise

No one fought. talked, wrote, organized more than Louise. She gets multiple hugs and pats on the back from me. She did everything anyone asked (except make those phone calls, but everything else) and more, and she managed to keep us all up to date while doing it.

Louise: here are your virtual hugs, virtual chocolate, virtual foot rubs and gift certificate for spa time. You deserve them all ten times over!

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by: Astra Borealis @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:23:30 AM CST

Amen.

Many thanks to Louise, Lurleen, Pam, and all the other Blenders who worked as hard as anyone on this issue.  Many, many thanks.  And go drink a deserved cup of java on me this morning!

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by: Ken in MS @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:31:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I still don't know what to do next...

Honestly, I still feel like crap now. It STILL feels like we keep getting kicked in the face and beaten to the pulp. I just keep having to ask myself why this keeps happening. Why does this horror story continue to repeat itself?

Well, thanks for trying. I just can't figure out where to go next.

Act on Principles and make equality happen.  

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by: atdnext @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 08:36:51 AM CST

I know what to do next...

The NOM still has to deal with their violations of Maine Election Law. We should be put maximum pressure on the regulators to get tough with NOM and their deceptive, illegal practices. What we should do next is 'kneecap' our enemies, exploit their weaknesses, so as to cripple them them in future fights. Force the disclosure of donor names, pressure the regulators to impose substantial fines for violations, and generally make our enemies suffer as much as we do. If we can make it unpleasant for people to support them we can blunt their effectiveness for the next fight.  

"Money is the only thing they respond to, the only thing they understand. The vision of the Founding Fathers is dead. The Constitution is dead. Only bribery remains." -RW Givens

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by: canoebum @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:02:03 AM CST

Exactly

We have to remain strategic.  Go Fred Karger et al!

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by: exfundie @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:58:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What to do next

The battles never end. Tomorrow morning at 10am is the Senate hearing for ENDA S-1584 (The Employment Non-Discrimination Act)

http://www.senate.gov

Use this energy to keep the fight alive! Our opponents have launched a phone camapign to stop this legislation. Imagine that! Please call your Senator and tell them now more than ever it is time to protect all working Americans from discrimination and to co-sponsor ENDA S-1584. We need this Federal protection now!

 

Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles, and see that the world is moving."
-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

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by: T2inDC @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:06:07 AM CST

hang in there Mainiacs.

I'm sure your feeling just as we did in Florida, November 2008. We lost by 2 points. And it was painful. Not only for the GLBT community but for our state. It's hard to look at injustice and have any hope. Today, we continue the fight and continue to have victories. The long arc of justice....

http://EQFL.org

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by: banshiii @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:09:03 AM CST

This analysis omits some hard truths

First, the margin was not that close.  Sure by the standards of Texas or Georgia, it was close, but by the standards of a blue state and in the context of the polling, it was not.  It is 6 points, with 7% of precincts yet to report, worse than Prop 8.

Second, we can't console ourselves that we lost b/c of incompetence.  This time, although we made some mistakes, we did most things right.  And the opposition didn't do anything unpredictable or surprising.  It was the standard playbook.  We had a strategy to deal with it.  And we still failed.

Third, if the margin holds at 6%, then we can't just write it off as an off-year conservative electorate.  With yesterday's high turnout, it doesn't seem the outcome would have been different if the vote had been held in 2012.

So this is really, really bad.  To me, it means that we are probably at the point where we need to wait for the old people to die off.  Sometimes arguments aren't won by logic or persuasion, but by demographic shifts.  Fortunately, the other side needed a vast army of old people (65+) to give them their victory.  In 10 years, many of them will be dead.  In 20 years, almost all of them will be dead, replaced by voters who support us 2-1.  Harsh but true.  In the meantime, we should do what we can to persuade, win marriage in states w/o referenda (NJ, NY), and probably accept civil unions where we can get them in states that have referenda.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:11:58 AM CST

Totally agree with you, Daniel

There ain't no more fight left in me.  The federal challenge to CA's Prop 8 will wind its way up the courts and at some point there is likely to be a victory there.  But probably not in my lifetime anymore.  So I leave hope and promise and joy to the youngsters.

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by: Jake @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:22:49 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Sounds like a plan Daniel

To me, it means that we are probably at the point where we need to wait for the old people to die off.  Sometimes arguments aren't won by logic or persuasion, but by demographic shifts.  Fortunately, the other side needed a vast army of old people (65+) to give them their victory.  In 10 years, many of them will be dead.  In 20 years, almost all of them will be dead, replaced by voters who support us 2-1.  Harsh but true.  In the meantime, we should do what we can to persuade, win marriage in states w/o referenda (NJ, NY), and probably accept civil unions where we can get them in states that have referenda.

Time is ultimately on our side.  It's strange, but I'm reminded of some of the ACT-UP protesters during the height of the AIDS crisis.  They knew they were dying and statistically wouldn't live very long, but they kept fighting for something that would benefit the generations that followed them.  I guess for older gays (like me) that's our solace.

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by: Jon Michaels @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:33:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This...

is beyond depressing.

All I can say is thank you, very very much, to all you "older gays" from those of us under 25.  I appreciate all of your radical activism.  I'm willing to do whatever it takes to secure equality for all of us, here and NOW, so that it doesn't have to be after you're gone.

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by: CisgenderLesbianRadical @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 13:27:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

According to Dan's plan

and time, I'll be dead too.  Between you and me this "oldie" has to keep "fighting".  For me it's not a matter of "waiting" for equality, it's a matter of "deserving" them like everyone else.

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by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 15:32:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks, Alvin

I'm very pragmatic as well and you summed this all up very well- greatly appreciated...

This is NOT over and I'm not done by a long shot. None of us on the team are.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

Click here for DADT photobook

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by: Louise @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:16:28 AM CST

very well put

I think your sense of perspective is exactly right. Thanks for a great article.

--ish

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by: ish @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 09:37:38 AM CST

feel like crap today, get better in a couple days

I think we're entitled to feel and express the hurt and anger of yet another setback. I and many will feel like crap today and maybe tomorrow - blah, depressed, and yet another sick feeling in the stomach - , but then we'll get right back up and continue the fight.  

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by: CharlesN @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:13:34 AM CST

Our greatest allies

Our greatest allies are education, urbanization, and the Grim Reaper. I expect to live long  enough to throw dirt on the coffins of my homophobic Congressman and Senators and most of my homophobic neighbors, and I'll move and leave the rest of them behind.

The people who worked so hard in Maine did exactly the right thing. I promise to follow their example and never give up. If I die first, I'll die on my feet fighting for what's right.

What a day, what a day for an auto-da-fe

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by: revbob @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:21:37 AM CST

My wish is to see outdoor weddings in ME and CA in 2029

take place literally at the grave sites of the people who voted for Prop 8 and Question 1, 20 years earlier.  Probably by 2029, the people getting married will no longer care enough about our fights to do this, but I would love to see it.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:44:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

That'd make for a pretty morbid wedding locale...

...but you made me smile, which is something on this day.

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by: CisgenderLesbianRadical @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 13:28:51 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Unacceptable for hose of us in our 50's now

We want our rights now; our own time is running out.  

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 14:09:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

No one should really be surprised...

Look, the reality is that minorities do not gain rights from popular votes.

The key to winning in the long run is to make the electorate apathetic enough not to care enough to waste time trying to strip away rights  given by legislatures and courts.

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by: SciFi Geek @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 10:24:59 AM CST

Again, unacceptable

The key to winning is being willing enough and angry enought to disrupt the activities of our opponents to such a degree that it is too costly to continue to oppose us...

You all seem willing to right off the rights of the older LGBT's; just wait for the wingnuts to die and you get your rights without bother.

Well, we will die off with them and we are no longer willing to wait.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 14:12:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is why we must watch MPA !

The Marriage Protection Act threatens to take away the power of judges to hear our grievances. One would think it would be an obvious violation of our constitutional rights and not even consider the bill but then, look at what they are doing to our marriages!

So no, having people vote on minority rights are not American but they are doing it and the MPA threatens to take away our last resort chances and the conservatives are going for that too.

Btw, CONGRATS to Houston for electing its first openly gay mayor, Annise Parker!!


www.theglbtactivist.org

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by: wspencer @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:01:41 AM CST

It teaches me

that you can vote Democratic till you turn blue in the face, you can vote in pro-gay candidates that will pass laws in your favor and it still won't matter if the bigots can get a measure on the ballot. What's the point of it all?

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by: Donica @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:12:14 AM CST

What I am trying to concentrate on

It seems like there's a ray of hope in that this time it wasn't a constitutional amendment. That makes it seem to me like a future repeat campaign in Maine faces less of an uphill battle than it would say for us in California.

What is the next step in Maine? Are there any plans for the legislature to attempt to, say, upgrade Maine Domestic Partnerships to full California/NJ style "separate but equal" as a stopgap?

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by: mcc @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:25:22 AM CST

Money Laundering, Money Marking

I agree, it is a good point that we need to be so visible that the public becomes bored with us.  If gay is everywhere, then the hysteria of bigots is more likely to be met with apathy and a tedious "yeah, whatever" by the public.

Money laundering must be pursued.  Illegal and unconstitutional blocking of donor and signer names must be pursued.

Meanwhile, I'll keep marking my money until the novelty has worn off for the public.  My own little saturation campaign. (Kool-Aide makes a great pink dye, mix with water and soak bills for 15 minutes.  Air dry.  Pigma markers make good permanent rainbow marks on bills.  "Gay Money" rubber stamps are available at every gay bookstore and online.  Use permanent ink pads.  Other bill marking techniques and legalities at www.wheresgeorge.com )

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by: Sundried @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:44:13 AM CST

Let's refocus...

not on how to win ballot measure per se, but how to win the hearts and minds of people.  This isn't gonna come from slick "look at our families" advertisements so much as it is actually advertising ourselves and our families to our neighbors...on a daily basis.

"The more America sees lgbt couples, the more America sees lgbt families, and the more open and out we are..."

We always talk about what's dividing us so sharply in these states where we have the votes, where we have a chance to win.  We talk about age ("when the old people die off, we'll win"), sex ("men are just homophobic"), religion ("they trample our rights in the name of God"), and even race ("70% of blacks in California according to those reliable exit polls").  The truth of the matter, is the divide is mainly rural vs. urban, and making progress in shrinking this divide is on our shoulders, not theirs.

When we plan a trip to a state that allows us to marry, like Massachusetts, do we go to the most conservative place to do have it performed?  No, we plan a fantastic trip to a place that feels comfortable, like Boston or Provincetown.  We have to start standing up for ourselves EVERYWHERE.  Not just in cities, not just in college towns, and not just in liberal enclaves.

We also have to start calling our domestic partnerships and civil unions marriages, like they do in the UK a lot, and insist, kindly, that's how our friends and neighbors refer to our unions.  We have to do this bravely, otherwise, we can't expect anything less than the 75/25 rural turnouts against us at the polls.  We just can't.

And we have to drop all the talk against the elderly, people of color, and religious people, and focus on what will get us the acceptance we deserve at the ballot box.

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by: Bruno @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 11:57:25 AM CST

So correct Bruno.... but we can 'educate' our neighbors...

also by heavily supporting VICTORY FUND local office candidates. These winners then become VISIBLE to entire communities working on the ENTIRE COMMUNITY's behalf.

No better way to 'spread' the word that gays are people, just like you.

I mean in last years Pride Parade in Oak Park FL there was the whole community cheering every time their newest City Councilor Anthony N kissed his new(in CA legal) husband) Waymon!  Then Anthony went back to work and daily works for EVERYONE in Oak Park.

Send $$ to Annise Parker in Houston folks... Thats a BIG community. 

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:03:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm still not so optimistic

Sure, gay marriage will happen some day in this country, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

As other people have already said, the vote in Maine wasn't close -- it was just as bad as in California, despite being in a state that is more liberal overall and despite the No On 1 campaign being better funded than the opposition and better run than the No On 8 campaign.

The victory in Kalamazoo is important, particularly for people in that city, but remember that Kalamazoo is a relatively liberal college town and hardly a microcosm of the country. Now, if we'd won a similar victory in Tulsa or Wichita, I'd be excited, but not in Kalamazoo.

As for Washington, assuming we win, it'll be by a razor-thin margin. This is despite Washington also being a pretty liberal state and despite the Approve 71 campaign being better funded and having the backing of big employers, compared with the poorly funded and poorly run Reject 71 campaign and despite the referendum being about domestic partnerships.

Again, we'll have full equality SOME DAY, but unless Boies and Olson win in the Supreme Court, that day won't come for a long, long time, and only after probably more and bigger setbacks.

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by: AJD @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:03:50 PM CST

To Hell with Straight Bigotry.

Queer as Folk was right - it really is all about sex and one particular sex act between men above all else.

We can say it's all about love and commitment and mom and apple pie. We can present nice parents of lesbians and gays talking about their children. And we can even show sweet lesbian couples and, if we must, gay male couples - though preferably with children so as to distract the audience from thinking about what that couple does in bed. But to no avail, in the end it all comes back to sex - "If a man lies with a male as with a woman..."

Please take this pollyannaish nonsense somewhere else. I'm not in the mood today. It wasn't close. What Maine showed is that even if we had done everything right in CA we would have still lost. It wasn't about us - it was about straight people and their irrational fears and prejudice.

We will have to win in the Supreme Court or we will have to wait for another generation or two. In the meantime, I'm tired of begging straight people for our rights. And I'm tired of justifying our existence by saying we are just like them. Some of us are but some of us are not and don't want to be.

I think it is time to revive the Queer non-assimilationist wing of the movement. We've stayed pretty quiet so you can't blame us for these losses. But what has it gotten us?

I'm proud of all the ways I'm different from most straight people. I'm legally married but not monogamous, in fact we're polyamorous. Neither one of us has ever wanted kids, though we admire people who do. I'm black, he's white. I'm an atheist, he's a Christian. He's a leatherman, I'm (despite a lot of experimentation during the 70s) more vanilla than I care to admit. He's a Type A, I'm pretty laid back. We let our differences be a source of strength.

We need to stop looking to straight people - and straight institutions - for affirmation. We need to look to each other for strength. We will win our rights but in the meantime can we have fun again without worrying about how straight people are going to react? Gay life has gotten pretty boring lately, at least in San Francisco. I miss the joy - the "Unspeakable Joy" as the song says, that used to be pervasive. We got a little taste of it at the Folsom Street Fair but I remember when every weekend was like that. We don't need no stinking straight people to be happy.

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by: claudew @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:29:53 PM CST

That may be fine for you,

but some of us need the laws to be changed, even to simply be with our partners. My lover lives in Venezuela; we've been trying for 4 years to get him into the country legally. Absent a change in the law, it will never happen. So, as much as I'd like to agree with you, many of us do in fact, need stinking straight people to be happy. We need them to understand what not being equal really means, how it destroys lives, and we need them to help us change the laws.

"Money is the only thing they respond to, the only thing they understand. The vision of the Founding Fathers is dead. The Constitution is dead. Only bribery remains." -RW Givens

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by: canoebum @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:48:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Agreed

Queer as Folk was right - it really is all about sex and one particular sex act between men above all else.

I must agree here. Ultimately, when you get beyond the surface of homophobes, it does come down to the fact that they find buttsex icky. Never mind getting them to explain their beef with Lesbians, or pointing out how many heterosexuals also enjoy "sodomy" (probably more of them doing it than us, considering their higher percentage of the population--if there are 10-15x as many of them as of us, then it only takes 1/10 as many of them doing it to actually outnumber OUR participation rate!).

And the most ironic thing of all? As anyone in a longterm relationship can attest, once you get married, sex approaches zero! They should WANT us to get married!

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by: kmpintj @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 16:44:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hate works

Don't fight the impulse, give it back with interest.
Bishop Malone every secret scandal will be rubbed in your face, Mormons you haven't begun to feel my hate, Knights of Columbus we'll sue you until you die. Vatican I hope Rome falls again, on top of you. Tim Kaine leave the DNC, before we chuck you out, you usless pig.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:38:46 PM CST

Before the Yes on question 1 disappear

Note any business displaying one, I want names and locations of our enemies.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 12:44:17 PM CST

RALLY in DC Tonight 5:30pm Dupont Circle

Emergency Response rally to Maine vote
We won't give in until we win -- all across this land!

DC ACTION: Wed. Nov. 4 at 5:30pm, Dupont Circle

Last night's vote in Maine was an infuriating defeat. Our side lost by a slim margin, but that doesn't make it any easier to accept. We will rally for equality tonight and against the bigoted forces who aim to deny us our rights.

But this is clearly not the end of the discussion. The Oct 11 demonstration of hundreds of thousands of LGBT people and their allies shows the widespread support for marriage equality. In DC, we are close to victory - but this is a national struggle. Tonight we will stand with our allies in Maine and raise our voices for full equality everywhere!

Join us at our meeting to follow the demo where we can discuss how to educate, agitate and organize!

WEDNESDAY, NOV. 4th
5:30pm - 6:30pm
Dupont Circle - Washington, DC

Come, come, my conservative friend, wipe the dew off your spectacles, and see that the world is moving."
-Elizabeth Cady Stanton

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by: T2inDC @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 14:44:41 PM CST

I'm heading there in 20 minutes

See you there!

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by: CPT_Doom @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 15:49:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The truth of the matter is...

...that there is a deep seeded and generations long hatred of gay people in this country.  We've been naive in thinking that people can be persuaded to abandon that hatred in such a short time.  Hatred is not rational; religion is not rational, they go together like a hand in a glove, and no amount of rational argument is going to uproot this American cultural foundation stone.

We all thought racial hatred had been marginalized until November 8, 2008.  Since then we've been treated to an outpouring of racial hate not seen in this country since the 1960s.  It just went underground, it didn't go away.

It's going to take generations to do away with racial hatred and anti-gay hatred because it's part and parcel with America.  Hate is as American as apple pie.

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by: TomTallis @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 15:15:53 PM CST

Some quick perspective everyone

Maine is not exactly Vermont. We did not lose a big huge liberal state and so we're fucked. We narrowly lost a moderate conservative state with two republican senators, a legislature that needed a lengthy debate just to pass, and a governor who was going to veto before having a change of heart despite being from the more liberal party.

We're not "shut out everywhere", we aren't doomed. We are talking about a state that only 4 years ago caught on that it wasn't nice to keep vetoing basic protections from discrimination and is NIMBY incarnate. We lost? It shouldn't have been a surprise. But something happened.

Things were so strong, changes were happening so fast, that it seemed like this nothing state might just make it through the hoops even on an off-year. We turned out to be wrong in this case, but we made HEAVY inroads in the only state in NE with 2 republican senators, someplace less liberal than famously middle-of-the-road New Hampshire.

We are winning everybody, that's why this was even in the field of play to begin with and ended within Prop H8 margins. Yes, we're dealing with a Gay Bradley Effect, but we can win if we keep plugging away at it, even in states with this bullshit referenda process. Maine wasn't some liberal paradise that we lost, it was a conservative battleground.

Just because we didn't win here doesn't mean we can't win anywhere and just because this was taken away doesn't mean the bigots are in any position to take away the right in Iowa, Connecticut, New Hampshire, or Vermont, especially if we keep giving them new states to worry about. New Jersey, New York, RHode Island, D.C.? Yup. Let's throw on a couple California runs, an Oregon just for size, maybe even an Illinois, Minnesota, and Wisconsin and court appeals wherever we can, we never know where the next Iowa will come from. Let's have them chasing their tails and not just on marriage. Whatever we can bring up, wherever we can bring it up, let's do it instead of waiting for them to snip away at what little we have won so far.

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by: Cerberus @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 15:47:37 PM CST

I like Cerberus' post - Here's some things to be positive about

We should keep it in perspective.  16 years ago, this issue didn't even exist in the US.  10 years ago, only 1 state had civil unions, and even that was highly controversial and judicially mandated.  This year, in spite of the stinging loss in Maine, we have gone from 1 state to 5 having full marriage, with CA sort of a sixth, and we have added WA and NV to the civil unions brigade.  And we may yet add NJ and DC to the marriage list before the end of the year.

Also, we did get about 47-48% in both CA and ME and we forced our opponents to spend $40 million to defend both states and to basically validate domestic partnerships as a bid to win over moderates.  

However, we still haven't actually won a direct vote on full marriage and we need for that to happen.  It may take a great homophobe oldster die-off over the next decade to get to 50% plus one vote.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 20:24:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

We are LOSERS

We need to own this DEFEAT as much as a victory. Maine was not close. Gee, lets just go to the ballot every year and waste all of our money. Then NOM can send us a big thank you gift. Stop this sickening happy talk.

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by: DilworthDem @ Wed Nov 04, 2009 at 16:26:30 PM CST