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Sitting by (in) the fire with Mormons

by: Trey

Thu Nov 05, 2009 at 12:25:50 PM EST


Were I recount our visit to a Mormon ward after promising myself I'd never set foot in a Mormon building again. I went into this angry as I described why yesterday on my blog. In addition, this week is they one year anniversary of the tragic passing of prop 8, and as if that wasn't enough, voters in Maine were reprising the entire episode (and sadly repeated the outcome). So, in that mood, I reluctantly attended a Mormon Fireside.

As I mentioned in the post on my blog yesterday (linked above), my husband and I were invited to attend this LDS fireside entitled "Better loving our gay brothers and sisters" at the Berkeley ward (read 'congregation') of the Oakland stake (read diocese). A few months ago, the stake president (Catholic bishop), Dean Crittle, organized a entire series of these firesides in every ward (11 in total). They were so well attended, they decided to hold a fireside to allow more to attend. Guy and I were invited by one of the speakers.

Trey :: Sitting by (in) the fire with Mormons
And so we went. We took BART since the bridge was closed, and had a nice time talking. We were picked up at the Berkeley BART station by our good friend Trevor Southey. We found the chapel, and though I didn't want to, we set foot inside a Mormon chapel. After we sat down (in the front row), I turned to Trevor I said "I am angry." I was. I was having a hard time just being there. I wanted so speak, in fact I wanted to yell and vent and cry. I didn't. I sat as calmly as I could as President Crittle started the fireside.

Allow me to recount this fireside as best as I can. President Crittle started by enumerating 6 points concerning the Mormon understanding of 'same gender attracted' people (as always, LDS leaders refrain from the word 'gay', much less 'homosexual'). Punctuating these points, different members of the audience read statements by various church authorities that supported them. Paraphrased, and to the best of my recollection,

1. Sexuality is innate. 2. Sexuality is unbidden. 3. Sexuality is for the most part, unchangeable. Marriage to the opposite sex will not change sexual orientation of gay men or women. 4. We do not know what causes sexual orientation 5. What the cause is in immaterial to LDS doctrine 6. We should show nothing but love and acceptance to our gay brothers and sisters, especially those in our families.

My first rush of reactions to these points was several fold. It did help dissipate my anger some as I sat there. Here was a leader of the church, bluntly stating in no uncertain terms many of the things his gay brothers and sisters have been telling Mormons for years. Though I disagree with, or at least would strongly caveat, the 4th point, most I would agree with. I was thankful that this man, this leader of the church was finally telling his people, hundreds of fellow Mormons, what we've been trying to tell them for years, laying out clearly and succinctly everything every Mormon should understand. We do not come by this lightly, we do not choose this, we do not blithely disregard beliefs and doctrines. We struggle and have struggled mightily with it.

But my next reaction was a phrase that kept popping into my head "Too little, too late." Perhaps not, perhaps any step towards understanding and love is a good step, no matter how small and tentative. Perhaps little is better than none, and late is better than never. He did not go so far as to say, and could not, the church's doctrine, or even their actions politically should have been different or should be different in the future. But at least he was counseling understanding and love.

Too bad it wasn't a year or more ago. Because, coming after the violation that was the huge effort of the church to rip my family's rights away, it still felt a bit like an abuser apologizing to the person they abused. Perhaps they mean it sincerely, but they'll have to understand if the abused looks at the apology with a huge healthy dose of skepticism, perhaps disdain even.

Still, a step.

President Crittle then had four stories, three from within the stake, of gay men and their struggle. The first a young man who read a short piece about the hopelessness a celibate single gay man in the Church feels and how different it is from being a single straight man or woman in the church, the second was a woman who told her story of her marriage to a gay man, the torture he felt and their subsequent divorce, was third was a reading from a letter by Henry Stuart Matis, a gay Mormon who committed suicide. The last story was from a man, someone who my husband knows from 20 years ago, who came out, divorced his wife and then fell into a life of drugs, promiscuity and worse, only to bring himself back and return to the church, though remaining an out and celibate gay man. He is now a ward missionary leader (which I would love to talk to him about some day).

The stories were filled with woe and sorrow. These are true. The church's past responses to it's gay brothers and sisters have created a life of sorrow and woe for us. It has driven many into painful marriages that end is deep sadness, it has driven many into lives of loneliness, hopelessness, despair and some to suicide. I can not deny that, I have lived it myself. And any step to help other Mormons understand that their response to their gay brothers and sisters can lead them to that despair... or not... is a good step.

But you know what was glaringly absent? Any stories of gay Mormons that ended up happily outside the church, or happy relationships, or even explicitly any stories where gay men and women don't fall into a life of promiscuity and abuse outside the church.

Maybe they couldn't bring themselves to do that? Perhaps by doing so suggests that there is a life for gay men and women outside of the structure of the church, one that can be happy. I could be reading into it too much. It could be that in some of the other meetings earlier this year, the did tell stories of men and women who were leading fulfilling lives in committed relationships. If they did, I'd love to hear it.

As it was, after the meeting was over, I had an opportunity to speak with President Crittle. I thanked him for what he was trying to do, I sincerely was grateful that he had made such a great effort over these last few months to help his members understand more. I also explained to him my concern that they studiously seem to avoid any stories of gay Mormons in happy committed relationships. I could point to several, many who are raising children, in his own stake that could tell that story.

I could tell that story.

I asked him to consider that next time. I'll refer him the names. I doubt, but am hopeful, that those stories will be told at a fireside some day.

During the conversations afterward, a tall man about my age wanted to introduce himself to me and my husband, he came and shook our hands and introduced himself as "Bob Packer." Since I was talking to others, the name did not register, I politely greeted him and continued talking to someone else. Later, my husband explained to me who he was. He was the LDS 'point man' for the Yes on 8 campaign. He was a person in large part responsible for the huge financial and volunteer turn out of the Mormon membership for Prop 8. I was surprised and just a bit flummoxed that he, of all Mormons, would be there, much less to seek us out to introduce himself. If there'd be someone I'd want to talk to, someone I'd want to understand, someone who could in some small way explain to me what my former faith was thinking, he'd be the one. Alas, I missed the chance. Perhaps another day.

I had several conversations later, including with the woman that told the story of her former husband, later that also helped me again understand that there are many Mormons within the church who sincerely and honestly believe in our equal treatment, who love us for who we are and not for who they paternalistically want us to become. I should know that, they are in my own family. These men and women, these Mormons, who are an example of what it is to love unconditionally and without judgement. Guy's parents and two of his brothers and their families are such Mormons. They are out there.

And if anything, this meeting reminded me of that.

I am under no illusions that there is any reconciliation, nor maybe ever will be, with the LDS institution. Though I am still angry at the church, though I do not believe in any way that the church as an institution feels any remorse for the efforts to remove my family's rights and though I understand this is a very very small step forward have the huge leap back the church made last year, any step is welcome.

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Enjoyed this pair of diaries, thanks
I'd be flummoxed, too.  Gotta wonder what the motivation is for a guy like Bob to attend such a fireside.

twitter.com/ChinoBlanco | youtube.com/ChinoBlanco

Packer
was probably there doing opposition research.  You know, taking the temperature of the average parishoner to see if the LDS can still get away with murdering gay souls in other states.

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Lurleen on Twitter.


[ Parent ]
I'll be curious to hear more..
A friend (active Mormon and gay-friendly) apparently forwarded my blog posts to the stake presidency (she helped the stake president set the firesides up).

:/

Daddy, Papa and Me, two men, their daughter, creating a family and the politics of it all.


[ Parent ]
Why do you think Olson/Boies wanted discovery on the Yes on 8 campaign? You were being worked by the LDS church.
Everybody would be extremely naive not to see this for what it is: an attempt on the part of the LDS church and its leadership to not appear motivated by animus towards gay people. You have the "point-man" for the LDS Yes on 8 campaign present, an individual very close to the people that are being looked at by Olson/Boies, a Bishop of the LDS church, and no doubt other LDS leaders, and a meeting house full of witnesses.

Please child, this was a set up. Invite the "press" to a church function where they were all make-nice with "same-sex attracted" people. Come on, you were worked so that the church could distance itself from what they knew full well they were doing: stirring up hate of gay people. The LDS church is manufacturing legitimacy for Yes on 8 after the fact, which they will maintain in court was going on before Prop 8. And of course all the stories would be tragic with no positive outcomes. The LDS church gets a bonus for their efforts, one that sustains the pernicious lies about the success of same-sex attraction and relationships but looks all warm and fuzzy.

No doubt this program of disinformation and deceit is designed to appear to show how loving and compassionate the LDS church is towards gay people and that is just plain nonsense. It's a ploy invented by church lawyers and put into operation by the LDS leadership. Don't take the bait!


An American voter with a memory is like a fish with a bicycle


[ Parent ]
From what I sample at the remarks on Deseret News, and know what they censor
I wouldn't ever have anything to do with active Mormons, my family members who are LDS aren't active members. They probably passively benefit as LDS members in business dealings, or dating, but never go to ward meetings or temple.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


I can't do that
My in-laws, my husbands parents, brothers, sisters-in-law, nephews and nieces are all Mormon, most are active and devout.

My father and mother in-law are amazing people. Devout, practicing Mormons who nonetheless accept their son, our relationship and our family without reservation or caveat. Same goes for two of his three brothers and his many nephews and nieces.

I love them, and I'd never shun them.

Daddy, Papa and Me, two men, their daughter, creating a family and the politics of it all.


[ Parent ]
It's not their words, it's their actions!
I'm glad this fireside took place, but I am completely suspect of the LDS Church's motivations for holding it. It smacks of damage control and in typical Orwellian Mormon style, revisionist history.

I believe the LDS Church management underestimated the blowback from Prop 8 from inside their Church (where unthinking obedience to the hierarchy is just assumed). This must have been a wake up call to them, that Californian Mormons were uncomfortable throwing their gay children and family members under the bus, and actually resisted their political commands. So now they are putting on smiley face bandaids trying to cover it up.

Just wait, five years from now Prop 8 will never be mentioned by the LDS and it will quietly be edited, reframed, reworded and nuanced out of their history (just like their historic discrimination of blacks and minorities).

PS. That fireside and its message of tolerance would never be held in Utah, as the local ward members would revolt.  


Precisely
The mormon hate cult has whitewashed and revised its history with regards to how it has treated people of African descent, women, the First Nations peoples. They have covered up their corporate dealings in Desert Industries that have resulted in deforestation of South America, they refuse to own up to the Mountain Meadows Massacre, they blackmail members into donating money they don't have. Those who aren't outwardly hateful, racist thugs are too ignorant of their cult's history to know any better; they are harmful to us because they'll do whatever those monsters in Salt Lake City tell them to do.

This fireside was just a way to feel out the opposition, and simultaneously be able to claim, "Look! We're reaching out!" when they whitewash their history for the umpteenth time, this time to pretend as though they've always been accepting of gays.

Anything for more tithing money. Anything.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi


[ Parent ]
I suspect that the LDS leadership welcomed the blowback
The LDS pollster Gary Lawrence, hired by two anti-gay campaigns (Yes on 8 in California and Yes on 1 in Maine), reveals his thoughts on how the Mormon church benefits from generating "negative buzz" ...

Mormon Strategy #4: We Welcome Buzz

People think, "Well, we don't like contention."

Of course we don't like contention. But buzz is when people start talking about us.

"Even negative buzz?" And I say, especially negative buzz ...

The question came up, "What if we have protestors?"

And I said, "Wonderful..."

Because if you don't have protestors at the temple, go down to the local Rent-a-Mob and hire some. We need local buzz. We need negative buzz.

I grabbed that clip from an academic conference about public perception of Mormonism from last spring:

http://www.uvu.edu/religiousst...

Several points that Gary made at that conference:

1) Antagonism is preferable to apathy.

2) Increasing contrast prevents identity from getting lost in commonality.

3) The LDS church is not even keeping up with world population growth. It will never be big and should operate accordingly.

Prop 8 was a team building exercise as far as the LDS leadership in California was concerned.  And for guys like Gary who are also GOP operatives, a list building exercise as well.  Cold. Calculating.  Highly profitable.  Gary's firm pulled in over half a million dollars for the polling it ran for the Prop 8 campaign.

You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and believing things that are true. If you want to set yourself apart from other people, you have to do things that are arbitrary, and believe things that are false.


twitter.com/ChinoBlanco | youtube.com/ChinoBlanco

Maybe we should rebrand Mormons
LDS = Scientology for the COMMON nosier folks.

LDS = Baptists...but more gullible

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


Thank you, Trey, for sharing.
My own religious past is Roman Catholic, and since the time the encyclical Humanae Vitae was issued in 1968, condemning artificial birth control.  Before the encyclical was issued, Catholics were often told by their parish priests to "use their informed conscience" on the issue.  When the encyclical was issued, it became official Catholic doctrine.  Many Catholics chose to continue to follow their informed consciences.  Eventually they realized that there were issues with other church teachings, on the status if women, gays and other issues, even women's reproductive rights.

Those catholics are often derided by the sheeple as "Cafeteria Catholics, and they are the ones I still find have common ground with me.  I offer it as a compliment to peoplr whose sense of Christian morality is well develeveloped and allows them to reject the biotry being foisted on them from the pulpit.

It is heartening to know that there are also Cafeteria Mormons out there in the LDS church as well.

I have to remember that we should not blame all people of faith, even in particular faith when the evil is comes primarily from their leaders.  Thanks again for reminding me of this.


Deniability Cover for the Missionaries.
Chino,
I agree Prop 8 was a team building exercise for the LDS Church. For the last year they have worked the media like pro's with their "we're just poor innocent victims persecuted for our deeply held religious beliefs" schtick.

You and I both know the Mormons are never happier than when they can circle the wagons and claim victimization from some nebulous external threat. It's the old " if the Church wasn't true we wouldn't be so persecuted" self reinforcing testimony loop.

But I do believe the Utah hierarchy (which is so insulated and prone to majority group think) underestimated the damage and long term doubts the campaign would have on their Californian members. Yes they galvanized and motivated their most rabid base, but they alienated the moderates, and gave those already questioning the Church a reason to walk away in disgust.

The softening of LDS anti-gay messages is their way of keeping the moderates (and SSA's and their family members) in the church and paying tithing, and providing cover to their missionaries in the field who have to defend the Church's anti-gay policies. Meanwhile behind the scenes, the LDS Church still does everything it can to isolate self-identifying gay people, and negate the expansion of gay civil rights.

Slick. Duplicitous. Par for the course.

PS. I wonder if that's why they are moving away from the judgemental, self hating Evergreen model, and more towards the touchy-feely more palatable North Star approach?


Deniability Cover for the Missionaries.
Chino,
I agree Prop 8 was a team building exercise for the LDS Church. For the last year they have worked the media like pro's with their "we're just poor innocent victims persecuted for our deeply held religious beliefs" schtick.

You and I both know the Mormons are never happier than when they can circle the wagons and claim victimization from some nebulous external threat. It's the old " if the Church wasn't true we wouldn't be so persecuted" self reinforcing testimony loop.

But I do believe the Utah hierarchy (which is so insulated and prone to majority group think) underestimated the damage and long term doubts the campaign would have on their Californian members. Yes they galvanized and motivated their most rabid base, but they alienated the moderates, and gave those already questioning the Church a reason to walk away in disgust.

The softening of LDS anti-gay messages is their way of keeping the moderates (and SSA's and their family members) in the church and paying tithing, and providing cover to their missionaries in the field who have to defend the Church's anti-gay policies. Meanwhile behind the scenes, the LDS Church still does everything it can to isolate self-identifying gay people, and negate the expansion of gay civil rights.

Slick. Duplicitous. Par for the course.

PS. I wonder if that's why they are moving away from the judgemental, self hating Evergreen model, and more towards the touchy-feely more palatable North Star approach?


Sorry about the double post!
Aarrghh... Technology vexes me!

But thank you for agreeing so enthusiastically ;-)
It's very possible that Gary is engaging in some convenient CYA with his after-the-fact explanation of why protests are something Mormons should welcome.  What he's suggesting here sounds like something he'd pitch to the old men in SLC who pay his bills.  If Gary keeps 3x5 cards of his arguments, this one's probably titled "Protestors vs. Mormon PR Jujitsu - why we should bring 'em on" ...

I hadn't heard about the shift to North Star.  I know nothing about that org.  Sounds like same shit, different box.

I worry for people with Mormon loved ones, because I see no prospect of a kinder, gentler Mormonism emerging.  Ever.  

20th-century members were animated by a vision of LDS assimilation and expansion.  But now, 21st-century members find themselves stuck in a movement based on claims that are easily disproved by anyone with a computer and Internet access, temples hosting silly ceremonies that are no longer secret, and a membership that has begun to thin as its 50,000-strong missionary army languishes and conversions lag.

As Mormonism contracts, members will be fed increasingly paranoid fare by an increasingly reckless leadership anxious to maintain its grip on the minds of its followers by any means necessary.  I don't think Prop 8 was a bump in the road, but rather a marker set by the LDS leadership along the course it intends to pursue.  


twitter.com/ChinoBlanco | youtube.com/ChinoBlanco


[ Parent ]
North Star ...
Found it.  http://northstarlds.org/

Good grief, that recent Dallin Oaks talk at BYU-I is touted on the front page and the latest "Directors' Message" is all about explaining why Dallin's talk was so important, written from the POV of a gay Mormon.  Seems like an exercise in providing cover for General Authorities and giving Mormon moms and dads an excuse to blame their gay kids for not being more like those nice North Star boys.

twitter.com/ChinoBlanco | youtube.com/ChinoBlanco


[ Parent ]
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