Email From A 'Friend': Stop Persecuting ME!!!

It's called pluralism

The way to stop persecuting each other is by practicing pluralism. I agree to honor the journey of your spirit and you agree to honor mine. We make room for each other. We don't fight for space as though there isn't enough. There is plenty of time and space for us to engage in debate and conversation about our beliefs, values, motivations and practices. Fear makes us believe that only one of us can be right. Truth none of us is right or wrong all of the time.  

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by: C. Whiting @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 20:15:14 PM CST

As long a junk science and religion rule our lives

we will never be a truly free people.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.-- Thomas Jefferson

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by: Mykelb @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 09:33:08 AM CST

[ Parent ]

enough space?

The comment about not fighting for space as if there isn't enough rings false to me.

If a Christmas tree and a Menorah can be placed in a courthouse year after year, but an non-theistic holiday statement is vandalized multiple times the first year it's ever placed nearby - it's not about space.  It's about tolerance.  

And the only way we can get tolerance for those of us who don't believe is to push at this notion that the religious are being tolerant of the rest of us when they "allow" us to be quietly non-religious.  

I drive by a billboard every day that tells me I'll go to hell for my non-belief.  A billboard that says "Don't believe in God?  You are not alone.", on the other hand, draws multiple media stories about how controversial it is.

Why is it controversial to say that non-theists exist, yet non-controversial to say that we'll go to hell?  Who's being non-tolerant here?  

We have to change the norm that says it's okay - even good - for the religious to speak, but daring, controversial, and militant for the rest of us to dare to do the same.

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by: jenl1625 @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 11:37:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Exactly

Oh, the looks I get when I cheerfully say,"Freedom OF religion includes freedom FROM religion!"

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by: Louise @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 12:06:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Partially false

For details, see snopes.com:

http://www.snopes.com/politics...

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...

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by: dyssonance @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 20:27:46 PM CST

Not surprised

Members of my family forward crap like this to me all the time.  When I bother to read it, I often do a little research and find out that it's either grossly exaggerated or fake.  But, of course, the fact that he didn't say all of this (only some of it) doesn't let Ben Stein off the hook for being an a**hole.

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by: JosephineTx @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 21:11:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The enforced atheism rot

In the original interview linked above, Stein, who almost certainly knows better, deliberately mislabels religious neutrality as enforced atheism. I have yet to hear of a judge posting a “there is no god” poster in a courtroom.

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by: pgraydon @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 06:43:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks, dys :)

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by: Louise @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 04:48:43 AM CST

[ Parent ]

A rant older than time

"Young people these days don't have what (or the morals/sense/character/etc) it takes"

There truly is nothing new under the sun.

yawn  

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by: reblaw @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 20:35:22 PM CST

Whew...where to begin?

I liked your response Louise.
I would have added a lot more,, and by the time Ben started spewing about Katrina...turettes syndrome over came me.
Ben should get down on his knees thanking his God, he can send unasked for religious propoganda out in this country, worship 24/7 at home and at temple...and no one stops him.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 20:41:31 PM CST

She went on

In her response, she also slammed the hell out of a young employee that I've never met.

While it sounds like she will never win "Mother Of The Year", I did feel bad for this younger woman being judged and picked apart by a co-worker, albeit without her knowledge.

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by: Louise @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 04:51:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Amazing.

It's amazing that assholes like Ben Stein can blame atheists for disasters like Katrina, but the right-wing still calls the left the, 'Blame America First' crowd.  

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by: CSStrowbridge @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 20:56:25 PM CST

Cry me a river

I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period.

In what ways are people who believe in God being "pushed around" ? Simply because others dare to challenge their beliefs, for which they have no evidence for?

Religion makes claims about the natural world. These claims infringe on the ground of science. There's no way for these claims -- based on no evidence -- to co-exist with the facts as demonstrated by science.

The Bible claims humans were descended from Adam and Eve. This is false. Provably false. The application of scientific tools and the scientific method show conclusively that humans share a common ancestor with chimpanzees.

The Bible claims that the Sun revolves around the Earth -- this is also false. (I hope I don't need to get into why).

Religion also makes moral claims. Many of the moral claims religion has made have led to much suffering. Including the claim that it is okay to subjugate women, that slavery is okay, and that homosexuality is wrong.

What Ben Stein wants is for religious beliefs to be exempt from criticism. Sorry, but that doesn't work for me. If you have certain beliefs which I find objectionable, I will criticize them, and if you're going to moan & whine about my criticism rather than defend your beliefs -- I'll also point out what an IMMATURE CHILD you're being.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina)..  Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.  She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.  And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out.  How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

Finally, a testable claim! It wouldn't necessarily prove anything either way, but we could actually look at where natural disasters happen in the world, and correlate those with the religiosity of the region.

I don't know if anyone has done this. But it appears to me that a lot of natural disasters hit the southern United States, the very area of the US that is the most religious.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.  The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself.  And we said OK.

Oh yes, I'm sure it's those parts of the Bible that were being objected to. Ridiculous.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

This kind of thing has always been happening. Why do you need the Bible to teach morality? What does the Bible have to do with morality anyway?

Religion has no expertise in the area of morality. They merely SELF-PROCLAIM their expertise.

There's a better way to reach moral conclusions. We can ask ourselves how a certain moral rule impacts society. Does it make people happier? Does it cause suffering? Does it cause more or less poverty? Does it cause more crime or less?

We don't need "god" to know that murder is wrong. With the exception of sociopaths and psychopaths, everyone knows this innately. We would never have become a successful species if, prior to religion, people went around wantonly killing each other and everyone else thought this was perfectly acceptable and merited no consequence.

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by: esurience @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 21:03:10 PM CST

So hurricanes, floods, epidemics are a new phenomenon?

Unless I am sorely mistaken, there were hurricanes, floods, epidemics, etc. long before Darwin.  In fact, I believe that such phenomena existed even before the Reformation, at times when people knew of no alternatives to "God."

And it's a pretty perverse coincidence, isn't it, that the parts of this country most afflicted by natural disaster are the ones that are most afflicted by members of the Graham family and other fundamentalists.

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by: EdA @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 21:04:23 PM CST

Well...

Having a predominately Christian Europe back in the 1300's didn't seem to help them avoid the plague either.

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by: buriichi @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 07:46:52 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yep!

In fact, religion helped the plague spread and made it worse!

The superstitious Christian "leaders" claimed cats were agents of Satan and were the familiar of witches, remember? One the cats were eliminated, the rat and mouse population exploded, and it was the fleas on the rats and mice which were the ones spreading the disease! IIRC, these religious "experts" also were the ones against washing with soap and believed these were caused by curses and spells and believed the thought that germs and such were the cause of disease were considered heretics.

It wasn't until rational minds prevailed and found out the cause of the plague did it begin to decline.

So once again, here's another example of why uncontrolled religion is a threat to humanity.

PS: I would've been nice if the Stein commentary was in a smaller font. I think it's rude.

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!

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by: Marlene @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 08:57:50 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The general theory is that it was the Mongol

conquests that enabled the plague virus to spread from central Asia into Eurasia and Eastern Europe. Also, that the spread of the plague helped the Mongol conquests. And in end, helped to bring down the Mongol empire.

The Church attitudes towards cats might have made problems worse; BUT, it isn't as if it was only the Christian world that was devastated by the plague. The plague also devastated the Islamic world, and China, and the Mongol empire too. Muslims definitely did NOT have superstitions against bathing and being clean. Death rates in the middle East and Chine were as better than certain parts of Europe, but also worse than other parts.

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by: rfloh @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 12:46:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Jews blamed for plague

Actually the plague was blamed on the Jews.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall...

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by: planetspinz @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 09:00:46 AM CST

[ Parent ]

HAHA

Couple sentences into this, I thought to myself "who the hell wrote this garbage, Ben Stein?"

Further down the page, and sure enough.

facepalm

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by: Eshto @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 21:12:38 PM CST

Since we are an atheist country

Tell the "christians" to quit pushing "christianity" down our throats.

Just saying.

Dena

P.S. One more thing. Those "christmas" trees? Quit ripping off the Pagans.  

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" (or non) is so 2006.

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by: Denabeth @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 21:34:27 PM CST

Heh

"Christmas", ie the Winter Solstice, itself doesn't belong to Christianity. It isn't just the trees.

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by: rfloh @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 12:52:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I never forward these

AND I JUST LOVE MY DELETE BUTTON!!!

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by: Phil @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 21:36:02 PM CST

I'm tired...

...of being pushed around by people who believe in god and I fully intend to push back with all the force I can muster.  Personally, I'm so sick and tired of Jesus I could puke.

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by: TomTallis @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 22:11:24 PM CST

Thoroughly concur.

I somehow have avoided getting these emails, but I definitely run up against these sentiments all the time. For such a large majority, it seems as if Christianity (or at least, its self-appointed defenders) is remarkably quick to claim victimhood when (as C. Whiting noted above) pluralism enters the picture.

-Anne

PS (off-topic): Tom, may I ask: is your username after the hymnist (he of the Canon) or after the L'Engle character, if either?

Trans and proud, albeit closeted.

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by: Anne @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 01:46:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I hear Tehran is lovely this time of year

If she wants to live in a theocracy, I can recommend a good moving company.

Christians like this whining choad are the reason we can't have nice things here in America.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 23:01:48 PM CST

Victim diatribe

I often take breaks from the news and even my favorite blogs so I don't encounter the never ending stream of Christianist victimhood.  

Like it is so bizzare that the Christianist literally believe that they are being persecuted yet they are the majority in the USA and they persecute the GLBTQ crowd daily.  

What a bunch of garbage.  These folks will never change nor grow up.  

vanhattan

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by: vanhattan @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 23:15:14 PM CST

remember Christians are the new Negroes

Both Mormon elders and Uncle Toms tell us so.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 00:19:42 AM CST

Religion is not a Get Out Of Criticism card...

If you are going to have spectacular beliefs, be ready for spectacular questioning of those beliefs.  If they are strong and logical, they will stand up.  Though when it comes to logic and religion, the twain seldom meet.

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by: Storm @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 00:38:02 AM CST

Oh come on, can we strive for at least a modicum of accuracy?

As a Christian I feel that if you are going to lay claim to any faith you should at least read the dang book....

"Don't long for "the good old days," for you don't know whether they were any better than today" (Ecclesiastes 7:10).

"We try to live in such a way that no one will be hindered from finding the Lord by the way we act, and so no one can find fault with our ministry" (2 Corinthians 6:3).  

"Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?" Jesus replied, " `You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind'. This is the first and greatest commandment.  A second is equally important: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).

So I would thank all the Jews and Christians out there to get it right by reading their own books and all the Atheists out there for not blaming the religion because so many seem to get it wrong.

Always thinking about it...

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by: kudo451 @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 00:48:49 AM CST

BIGOTRY... a new a ?better definition.

For those who missed it. Patricia Nell Warren (author of Frontrunner, etc.) wrote this blog for Bilerico,
http://tinyurl.com/ykdkpvu
which contains.. among a lot else.

Conservatives don't like to hear the word "bigot" applied to them. Many liberals -- including some LGBT people -- are convinced that it's not cool to refer to other people that way.

I disagree 110 percent. "Bigot" is an excellent word -- a necessary word. If it didn't exist, we'd have to invent it. History has shown us the awful picture of how bigots operate, and why we shouldn't mis-define their activities today. Read on and see why.

 

But unfortunately the DICTIONARY definitions:

miss the mark. Down through the centuries of Western civilization, the biggest motive of bigots is not just personal -- it is political. It is to establish a state religion -- their own personal brand of religion, naturally.

Do read the whole thing, a very thoughtful piece.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 00:50:39 AM CST

Billy Graham's daughter

Jane Clayson wrote all the prayer in school stuff. Ben Stein, Jews have been persecuted for plenty of undeserved reasons in human history. Stop making up new ways. Go help out my aunt's synagogue, which was recently vandalized. That's a hate crime. I can't even figure out what makes you feel persecuted? No one saying "Merry Christmas" to you?

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by: one jewish dyke @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 01:36:50 AM CST

Here's my take on why some of them may feel like they are getting "pushed around".

I think they are PLIFS:

People Living In Fear:    A reference to conservative or fundamentalist followers of any religion that leads them to be fearful of any questioning of their religious doctrine or to be open to creative, new ideas. Because psychologically fear is such a crippling emotion, psychologically healthy people tend to try and control and recognize this in themselves. Those who don't tend to rely on more dictatorial or authoritarian leaders whether they be in the form of a political leader or their own chosen God.

I was a tourist stuck in the Superdome during Katrina and observed the power of fear over and over again.

Peace to all,

Paul Harris
http://diaryfromthedome.webs.com

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by: arkansan1 @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 02:20:06 AM CST

How about a non-neo-con Jew's perspective?

I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country.  I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Are there any Jews out there who want to express what it must feel like to have a Nixon-apologist like Stein essentiallu appropriating your life and existence in order to propagate two key elements of right-wing christianists' prime directive?

First:

have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country.

Here's your answer Ben: It came out of Pat Robertson's ass.  Even atheists who are inarticulate enough to use the phrase 'freedom from religion' don't actually intend it to mean that the country must be atheist. However...

I can't find it in the Constitution

Well, you're a lawyer Ben.  You should be able to find this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....

So - no, the country is not mandated to be atheist.  And neither is the government.

But this is a mandate that the national government be irreligious - and that nasty little Fourteenth Amendment that you right-wing wackos hate so much (except when you can use it to install right-wing wackos in the White House contrary to national will) extends that concept to all other levels of government in the nation.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me.  I don't think they are slighting me....

And yet you know damn good and well that if every - or any - business entity with all or partial Jewish ownership began mandating that its employees say 'shalom' and/or 'Happy Hannukah', every one of the right-wing christianists who you're carrying water for via your deceptive rant would be off to the courthouse to file civil rights lawsuits against 'them Jeeeeeeeewwwwwwwzzzzz!'

where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

I refer you back to Pat Robertson's ass - and the Sarah Palin about which you seem not to be complaining.

It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in    Malibu   .  If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

And here I refer you back to the inartful atheist who uses the phrase 'freedom from religion.'  Literally, that phrase would confer the right to erase such displays.  

But Ben, why don't you give details?

Does "at a key intersection" mean on private property, say...that of someone else's beach house? Whereupon, presumably, no money collected from atheist/agnostic taxpayers (against their will - as you anti-tax, Norquist-oids like to intone) will in any way be involved?  Or do you mean on taxpayer-owned property as part of a government-sanctioned, government-funded (however much said government protests to the contrary) declaration that taxpayer-funded government is co-terminus with 'Judeo-Christianity', because that "Menorah a few hundred yards away" is the only other thing allowed on said taxpayer-owned property?

Ben, you're bitching about the evil atheists, agnostics and - even worse - constitution-readers, but I want you to be honest - with yourself - if you can.  Which 'America' would be less likely to put you and other Jews up against the wall...

An America with an atheist president?

Or an America with Sarah Palin as president?

Take all the time you need to come up with an honest answer.

Well, almost all the time you might need...

You probably should decide by 2012.

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 07:08:23 AM CST

Actually, we're neither an atheistic country nor a theistic country

What we are is one that says that no one gets to enforce their religion with the power of law.

We know we're not a Christian nation.  The Treaty of Tripoli signed on primarily by the founders of the country states this explicitly.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...  

But we're also not an atheistic country.  People are allowed to practice their beliefs in their private lives.  The state even provides the extraordinary respect of those beliefs that religious organizations are almost entirely not taxed, provided they do not stray into the political realm.  And even then, the state tends to turn a blind eye to all but the most egregious violations of that simple requirement.

Now, if people want to allow God back into the schools, then I guess I could agree.  Provided they allow the view of God that I, personally, believe in--a benevolent panpolytheistic God.  If people insist that God should get enshrined in the Federal and state governments, then I'll also agree--provided it is my personal views that are enshrined.  However, if someone thinks that they're going to have any kind of publically-enforced prayers that I will need to follow and they do not agree with my own personal view, they've got another think coming.  I gave up passiveness for Lent a few years ago.

# Duty, duty -- honor is, is --
Honor, Creideiki -- alertly
# Shared, is -- Honor #

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by: MileHighDawg @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 08:05:54 AM CST

center for inquiry

i listen to a great podcast by the center for inquiry that discusses the intersection of science and religion.  the interviewer is d j grothe, who is openly gay.  he is a really smart guy and a very thoughtful interviewer.  i don't debate religious people because it is a waste of breath and my time.  however, this podcast would give one reams of material to argue with christians about why they are wrong.  i am not around many acknowledged atheists so it helps me to hear folks that think like me so that i don't feel so alone in my nonbelief.  it actually helps strengthen my nonbelief as i give it a lot of thought.

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by: swabby @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 08:24:24 AM CST

I wish I could agree.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

I used to believe that it didn't matter if there were public support and celebrations of religious themes. I was raised, believed then, and still believe that it doesn't affect me at all if someone else wants to celebrate a holiday from another tradition.

It doesn't impact me if my neighbors keep kosher, or don't go to dances, or stop to pray several times a day.

I still believe that it is imperative that people be allowed to worship God as they understand God, or not to, as they choose.

BUT

Then, somewhere along the line I noticed people getting more and more vehement with flat out lies that they were basing on exactly these public celebrations. They used the fact that our money has "In God We Trust" on it to explain that this is a Christian country and therefore, gay people like me don't deserve equal rights.

That Christmas trees downtown justify boycotting stores that say "Happy Holidays" when their seasonal marketing blitz starts in October.

That the fact that some of the Founding Fathers were religious means that federally funded programs can teach abstinence only, outlaw abortion, or justify pharmacists tearing up prescriptions for contraceptives.

It became unacceptable to just leave others alone to worship as they please when they (perhaps inevitably) used that as the basis of pushing their beliefs right back onto everyone else.

It doesn't matter to me what our money says as long as I can spend it. But when what it says is used to makes sure that my life costs more to live, and I get screwed out of equal access TO that money, then it DOES matter. A lot.

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by: Lymis @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 08:51:27 AM CST

Hmmpf!

My daughters are in first and second grade.  We consistently hear from their teachers that they are THE best behaved children in the entire class, by far.  They are quiet, polite, attentive, and ahead of the rest of the kids.

My children tell me that they are unhappy that other students continually interrupt the classes and prevent them from learning.

We are NOT Christians, Jews or any flavor of followers of the god of Abraham.  We are eclectic pagans.  We teach our children respect for others, especially strangers.  In our house, 'hate' and 'bored/boring' are bad words.

I am astonished, but not surprised, to find that we, a non-christian family, have higher standards of 'morality' than the so-called Christians that live in our town.  (But I have been turned off to Christianity since I witnessed their hypocrisy at a young age.)

Who are the worst behaved kids in our school?  The offspring of Republicans.  The more reactionary, the more 'teabagger' the parents, the worse their children are.  You can observe our school's children and rank the kids by their behavior and that rating will be well behaved=liberal/disruptive=conservative.

So Ben Stein is clearly full of shit, but then again he did work for Nixon.  It occurs to me that if he had never been cast in 'Ferris Bueller's Day Off", no one would ever remember him.

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by: Comrade Rutherford @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 20:24:53 PM CST

Isn't Ben Stein

under indictment, or at least in hot water, for some shady financial scam he's involved in?  

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 21:31:11 PM CST

Using the Holocaust to deny Evolution!

Ben Stein narrated a movie called "Expelled" last year which spoke out against the science of evolution.

Not only does Ben Stein lie time and time again in "Expelled."  But Mr. Stein goes so far as to at least partially blame the Holocaust on Charles Darwin by selectively quoting from Darwin's "The Descent of Man."

Read more about "Expelled" here:
http://www.scientificamerican....

How horrible it is for any human being to use the millions of people who were tortured and killed during the Holocaust for political purposes now, but for a Jewish man to possibly use his own relatives' suffering and death to support his own ignorant and dangerous views in his abject condemnation of science is reprehensible.

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by: djreedps @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 22:57:19 PM CST