Is belief in marriage equality next on Catholic Church's use of communion as a political weapon?

Fine and dandy...

Anyone who is denied communion on the basis of supporting womens' and LGBT rights is entitled to a free plenary indulgence, courtesy me.

Hate stops a beating heart.

---

by: KarenS @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 23:38:18 PM CST

I was raised Catholic

But I LSD therapy in college to try and blot much of it out.  I think - if I remember correctly - you can't have a grave sin on your soul.  I also thought I remembered that you couldn't take communion if you missed mass and didn't go to confession.  

Did anyone happen to catch Hardball tonight.  Chris Matthews railed against some bishop regarding this.   Then Pat Buchanan came on and Matthews railed on him and Buchanan said that women who had abortions were victims who shouldn't be punished by the law, only doctors.  It wasn't fun.  

---

by: Kringas @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 00:16:45 AM CST

*I used LSD therapy

I think I was having a flashback whilst I typed.  

---

by: Kringas @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 00:17:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, re: saw Tobin on Hardball

While he did pound the hard point, Chris was imo too reverent to the bishop; what, was he worried that HE would denied the cookie next?

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---

by: Louise @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 05:02:17 AM CST

[ Parent ]

here's a dirty little secret of Bishop Tobin

"For almost six months, Bishop Tobin and his staff recklessly and callously chose silence over warning, and opted to alert no one about a credible allegation of child sexual abuse against a Catholic priest. That is inexcusable. Six months is a long time to intimidate other victims, threaten witnesses, destroy evidence, and fabricate alibis.
Regardless of what law enforcement does or doesn't do with this case, Tobin had a moral and civic duty to promptly warn the public and his parishioners about this serious allegation.
That he chose self-serving secrecy over simple prudence is very disturbing."
MORE at link
   http://jp2army.blogspot.com/20...

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 00:19:00 AM CST

Same w/Bishop Malone's best friend Paul Miceli.

Why covering up someone else's sexual abuse of children isn't considered reason for dismissal from the church, let alone a reportable crime, astounds me.

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---

by: Louise @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 05:04:45 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I wonder if part of it is the 'shortage' of Priests

One of the things that might be bearing on this is that there is a shortage of priests, partially due to the Church's stance on issues like womens rights/ordination and LGBT equality.  Those that would otherwise consider the priesthood are going to other, more progressive churches.  So even when they are aware of clerical misconduct or abuse, they try to keep that priest on the books for as long as possible.  I know of one priest, (he is now openly gay, btw)who the heirarchy tried to talk out of leaving the priesthood when he was going to leave--until he came out.

Why is it that if we talk to God we're praying, but if He talks back to us, we're schizophrenic?-Lily Tomlin

Check out my blog, Standing at The Intersection of Church and State.

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by: gayjaybird @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 06:54:37 AM CST

[ Parent ]

They recently got an influx of Anglican bigots

A shortage of priests is no excuse for failure to report a child rapist to police. The only people who fail to report such atrocities are the people who enjoy raping children, or who are afraid of losing money, power, and face.

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

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by: Keori @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 08:51:18 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The problem with this

is that the cover-ups aren't a recent phenomenon.  When I was a kid, in the 50s, it was common knowledge among the kids in my Catholic grade school and among the adults around my Catholic neighborhood that priests like to diddle little boys.  (They tended to look the other way on the ground that the priests were supposedly "doing so much good.")  The priest who molested me in high schools (in the 60s) is now a monsignor, in charge of a Catholic boys' school(!) in another state.  There was no priest shortage in those decades, quite the reverse.

It's been going on for centuries.  As I've pointed out before, in Homosexuality and Civilization Louis Crompton reprints a letter from some parents in Florence begging their bishop to do something about the priest who's screwing their kids and asking why he has ignored their repeated requests.  The letter dates from the 14th century.  There was certainly no shortage of priests back then.  The Catholic church had a monopoly on the religion racket--a monopoly they're desperate to re-establish.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

---

by: QScribe @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:27:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Here's what I understand about Catholic rules

They've changed over the years.  This business of bishops refusing to give communion to politicians is new.  it should also be noted that it's very selectively done to certain politicians.  My suspicion is that because this guy is a Kennedy, he's been singled out.  Most bishops "don't go there."  It should also be noted that in most Catholic parishes, communion is administered by a priest and two or three or more Eucharistic Ministers, who are lay people designated to administer communion.  Unless they put up a poster in the sacristy with a "do not administer" order, this is going to be a tough one to enforce.  The bishop's order only applies to the Diocese of Rhode Island, nowhere else.

It was also my understanding that the bishop's order to refuse communion to Kennedy applied to only to diocesan priests, which are a minority of priests in most diocese.  Diocesan priests are employed directly by the diocese in which they work and can only perform sacraments (communion is a sacrament) in that diocese.  They do not take a vow of poverty, and in one instance I know of, one was married to woman.  Most priests are members of orders, who take vows of poverty, chastity, etc.  This would be the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, etc.  They may administer sacraments in any diocese.

Confession, also known as the Sacrment of Pennance, is not required as it used to be in the past.  The church now advises receiving this sacrament only when the need arises.  This is probably a good thing because of the shortage of priests.  If people still had to go to confession weekly (or whatever it was), that's all priests would be able to do.

There are some sacraments that can only be administered by a priest:  consecrating of hosts, hearing confessions, and, I believe, ordination.  Deacons can perform baptisms and marriages, lay people can administer communion (as noted above).  Theoretically, anyone can perform last rites, and in an emergency baptize people.

The church had better tread very carefully on this tactic, because the end result just might be far fewer Catholic politicians for the church to be able to dictate to.  

---

by: Phil @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 00:46:49 AM CST

Just to clarify...

>It was also my understanding that the bishop's order to refuse communion to Kennedy applied to only to diocesan priests, which are a minority of priests in most diocese.

Depends on one's area. The Archdiocese of Philadelphia (Phila and 4 PA counties around it), as of 2004, had almost 2x as many diocesan priests as religious order priests. It also had about 500 lay brothers, and over 3000 sisters (it helps when a few motherhouses are located in the region - we have a TON of private schools, as well as parochial).

>There are some sacraments that can only be administered by a priest:  consecrating of hosts, hearing confessions, and, I believe, ordination.  

Ordination requires a bishop in good standing w/ the Vatican (HAH!). Although I think there have been cases of ordination in extremis (say, in Soviet Poland or China, etc.).
----------
More OnTopic:
I've done a slow walk away from the RCC, mostly because it's impossible to change an organization "from within," as I'd always been taught by the SSJs was possible, when you have no power to enact change. But the hypocrisy was too much, and when the last social ties decayed, I realized there was nothing left. The foundations were shoddy, and still are.

The whole communion-barring thing is being used as a publicity stunt and distraction, while only affecting (offending) people taking public stands. Never mind the average U.S. Catholic who doesn't believe or follow 75% of what is being taught and promoted - they don't get penalized, except by their own complicity and silence. And the average parish priest shrugs and moves on. And the good ones, the ones that get it and are on the side of equality, are never promoted to a level where they COULD promote positive change.

When a priest is tagged for the hierarchy, they are young and impressionable. They don't GET real parish experiences dealing with real people. They never head a parish. They never have to deal with the consequences of church teachings. The ones in the trenches are the ones who never get to the heirarchy. Therefore, change is impossible.

---

by: lyonside @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:25:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

mark this on our calendars

Conn. judge: Release church abuse papers by Dec. 1
(AP) - Nov 10, 2009

WATERBURY, Conn. - A Connecticut judge has ordered the release of thousands of documents connected to sexual abuse lawsuits involving Bridgeport's Roman Catholic Diocese.

A Waterbury Superior Court judge ruled Tuesday that the diocese should release the sealed documents by Dec. 1.

The files consist of more than 12,000 pages from lawsuits against six priests settled by the diocese in 2001. The U.S. Supreme Court last week refused to hear the diocese's appeal of a Connecticut Supreme Court decision ordering release of the documents.

The records include depositions, affidavits and motions that could shed light on how retired New York Cardinal Edward Egan handled the allegations when he was Bridgeport bishop.

The New York Times, The Boston Globe, The Washington Post and the Hartford Courant have asked to see the documents.

http://www.google.com/hostedne...

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 01:08:42 AM CST

Wow.

Now let's see what comes of it...

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners

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---

by: Louise @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 05:06:22 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm finding all kinds of secrets tonight

A priest from Providence stole $123,000.00 then after 2 years in prison became an assistant priest in Ft Worth, and turned up HIV+.

Then in a rant against Chris Dodd bishop Tobin brings up Dodd id divorced and married to a MORMON woman.

hmmmmm is there a little problem in eccumenical paradise of co-fag bashers Catholics and Mormons?

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 01:12:44 AM CST

more pedofile scandals

Sunday, August 31, 2008

R.I. diocese will pay $1.3M to abuse victims

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) -- The Roman Catholic Diocese of Providence will pay $1.3 million to four people who said they were abused by priests, lawyers announced Friday.

The settlements were reached in June and will go to the victims or their estates, said attorney James Murphy, who represented the church.

"There is no amount of money that is going to make it right," Carl DeLuca, one of the plaintiffs' lawyers, said. "It is more an issue of validation. And in that sense they feel validated."

Three men sued the diocese starting in 2003 alleging that priests abused them as children. Murphy said a fourth man contacted church authorities to report that he had been abused; he never filed a lawsuit and died before the settlement was reached.

"These are very intense cases and troubling cases," Murphy said.

Bishop Thomas Tobin and the Providence diocese did not admit any wrongdoing as part of the agreement.

In 2002, the diocese reached a $14.25 million settlement with 37 alleged victims of sexual abuse in Rhode Island who filed lawsuits. The cases involved allegations against 11 priests and a nun.
    http://www.comicon.com/ubb/ubb...

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 01:16:12 AM CST

in 2007

PROVIDENCE (RI)
National Catholic Reporter

By CHUCK COLBERT
Providence, R.I.

The church reform organization Voice of the Faithful gathered for its national convention here Oct. 19 and 20, even as victim advocates voiced frustration with the group and the hierarchy for not doing enough to bring justice to survivors of clergy sexual abuse.

Inside the convention center, Mary Pat Fox, Voice of the Faithful's president, urged the 500 members in attendance to move from anger to love. Keynoter Fr. Richard P. McBrien advised the organization not be confrontational with the hierarchy nor "to write off" the U.S. Catholic bishops. Fr. Donald Cozzens said Voice of the Faithful's call for an ecclesial review of mandatory celibacy is in "perfect harmony" with the Second Vatican Council's theology.

BishopAccountability.org, an online archive of documents related to the abuse scandal, held a news conference in Providence Oct. 19 to announce the release of a document indicating that between 1971 and 2007, 125 priests in Rhode Island were accused of sexual assault or misconduct, including 95 accused of child molestation and sexual assault.    http://www.bishop-accountabili...

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 02:02:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Was Kennedy the first?

I thought there was another politician who was refused communion due to their approval of marriage equality. In fact, I thought Teddy ran into that problem as well?

"Oh, I thought you meant a specific plan. With maps and stuff." -Buffy

---

by: Aspasia @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 01:39:41 AM CST

Kerry was threatened in 2004 race

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 01:56:03 AM CST

[ Parent ]

That must've been what I was thinking about

"Oh, I thought you meant a specific plan. With maps and stuff." -Buffy

---

by: Aspasia @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 15:41:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm bashing Bishop Torbin on HuffPo

I said, theologians can argue if Patrick Kennedy is worthy to receive communion
The repeated pedofile scandals in Providence Archdioces clearly show Bishop Torbin is UNFIT TO SERVE IT!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 01:55:01 AM CST

I was being BAD today

We usually don't answer unknown calls, but my hubby picked up a call from DNC asking for contributions to fund healthcare. I let the woman give her speel seemed 5 minutes of reading a script, then said th gAyTM is closed.

sorry off topic, but we haven't had an open thread in 5 pages.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 13:11:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Bravo!

---

by: kevinchi @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 13:28:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, if it is good enough for the clergy,

does that mean the lay people can do it too?  male-male sex, pedophilia, etc.  It makes me wonder if the church even has the moral superiority to lead, unless it is a "do not do these things that we do, for such is the will of God that we sacrifice ourselves to teach by bad example."
Of course, any church that stoops to moral blackmail,

Time will tell. But we've already seen bishops with the Catholic Church threaten to stop caring for the poor in Washington, D.C. over the issue of gay marriage.

needs, by virtue of morality, to be razed and the ground salted to allow no further growth from their tainted roots.

---

by: geekydee @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 06:53:50 AM CST

I think this might be next ...

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by: rupi3000 @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 07:13:13 AM CST

Not the Comfy Chair!!!

Basically, Catholic theology allows excommunication for a wide variety of sins. It is typically reserved for Extremely Bad Things (e.g. murder), but is also used in cases where a Catholic professes an opinion contrary to church doctrine. This led to interesting things in the Middle Ages like Popes and Anti-Popes and Anti-Anti-Popes (elected by various factions around Europe), all excommunicating each other, or entire towns being excommunicated for embracing heresy of one form or another. In this case, a pro-choice (or, conceivably, pro-marriage-equality) position seems to be heretical enough to result in a ban.

I honestly don't know what would happen if an excommunicated Catholic showed up to mass and tried to get communion. However, any Catholic devout enough to regularly attend mass probably takes the eucharist seriously, and therefore will take excommunication seriously enough that they won't try to get around the order. It's really just a symbolic snubbing of the person, and requires a pre-existing belief in the Catholic rituals to be appreciated.

And that says something about just how antiquated and petty the Catholic church can still be as an institution...

---

by: pfeng @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 07:50:43 AM CST

There's also interdiction

"Interdict" was, in effect, excommunicating an entire country--no Masses could be said or sacraments administered--and was usually done because some king or other had dared stand up to whatever pope had planted his ass on the Throne of Peter at the time.  It hasn't been done for a long time; the Vatican resolutely declined to place Nazi Germany under interdict, for example, and they positively embraced Franco's Spain.  There were a few vague rumblings from Rome of placing Spain under interdict when that country legalized gay marriage; but cooler heads prevailed (i.e. they realized how ludicrous it would make them look) and the discussions never went very far.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

---

by: QScribe @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:41:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Then too

if you can't say mass, you can't pass the collection plate, eh?  Serious business, this interdiction.

---

by: Rae @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:13:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Definition of mortal sin and how abortion views of a politician relate

Okay, Pam asked about the Catholic definition of mortal sin, so I decided to go to the source:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/...

Since the Catholic Church considers abortion to be murder, it would violate the Ten Commandments.  Thus, performing an abortion or seeking an abortion would be considered a mortal sin.  And, making abortion easier to obtain would be a mortal sin as well, at least from that perspective.

As I recall, the Catholic Church, for the most part, takes a dim view of publicly denying someone communion.  The general rule is that each individual should use their conscience to determine whether they are free of mortal sin and worthy to receive the Eucharist.  

Some conservative priests and bishops, however, are concerned about what the Catholic Church calls scandal.  Please note, the Catholic definition of that word is different from the definition we use in daily life.  The Catholic sense of the word refers to a public sin which inclines others to participate in sin.  In conservative Catholic eyes, a politician making statements in support of abortion or (worse) voting for abortion access, is committing scandal... s/he is corrupting the morality of other Catholics.  

And that is why some conservative priests and bishops (but not the Vatican or the US Conference of Catholic Bishops) have advocated denying communion to pro-choice Catholic politicians.  In the eyes of such conservatives, these politicians are publicly undermining the morals of other Catholics. To counter this pastoral threat, the Catholic Church would need to publicly rebuke such scandalous politicians. (This, btw, is why a few backwater priests occasionally deny communion to a gay or lesbian who becomes too outspoken.)

But.... as I mentioned earlier, this is not the position of the Vatican or of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.  It is a controversial position, and goes against the general grain of Catholic thought regarding the Eucharist - that the priest shouldn't get between an individual and Christ. Both the Vatican and the USCCB are collectively uneasy with the position of those outspoken conservatives. In fact, some believe that Archbishop Raymond Burke, who threatened to withhold communion from John Kerry and Rudy Giuliani, was promoted to a non-pastoral position at the Vatican to get him out of the US and out of the controversy.

Now.... getting back to Bishop Tobin. The controversy regarding Patrick Kennedy is a bit of a "he said, he said" disagreement.  Tobin claims he merely advised Kennedy not to receive communion.  This would fit the mainstream of Catholic practice - leaving it up to the individual conscience whether or not to seek the Eucharist. Tobin's advice would simply have been pastoral counseling.  But Kennedy says that he was instructed not to receive communion, and that priests were ordered not offer it to him.  This is outside the mainstream, but within conservative Catholic thinking.

It should be noted, however, that Tobin gave an interview on Sunday in which he stated he would have taken firmer action if he had known Kennedy were regularly receiving communion in his diocese.





Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

--- Blaise Pascal, Pensées, #894

---

by: Lynn Miller @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 08:21:26 AM CST

Note: Rudy Guiliani's already barred from Communion

Which is why I thought the alleged refusal based on pro-choice positions was laughable. Guiliani had his first marriage annulled, but not his second one, so his current (third if you're counting) marriage is actually adulterous; therefore he cannot receive Communion at all while he stays in a relationship with Judith Nathan.

On the other hand, this move to attack public officials whose concern for the public welfare must trump their religious beliefs is more than troubling. It directly creates a conflict that, according to the Church, can only be resolved in favor of basing civil law on Catholic doctrine. If that is their position, then I have to say that practicing Catholics must remove themselves from all public offices.

Here's an example of why: The Roman Catholic Church believes that abortion should be reserved only to save the life of the mother, health concerns do not allow for abortion. That means a woman who is threatened with kidney failure because of a pregnancy (a very real complication of diabetes) would not quality for an abortion according to Catholic thought. Neither would a woman whose fetus is not viable and may threaten her future fertility. Therefore a Catholic politician would be in sin for merely supporting abortion laws that the vast majority of citizens believe are morally reasonable.

Clearly Catholics cannot be barred from office, so this is basically blackmail to either get progressive Catholic politicians to conform or get them to leave the Church. I think more will take the second route than the Church realizes, and how will that look?  

---

by: CPT_Doom @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 09:15:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"Isn't refusing Communion reserved for those who have personally committed mortal sins"

Not quite. Catholic theology holds that a person may receive the eucharist only while in "a state of grace," ie with no current burden of sin. If the priest knows that a wanna-be communicant is in a state of sin, then communion can be denied. This is the situation with any of the sacraments: a person in a state of sin cannot be married in the Church, cannot be confirmed, cannot be ordained, etc. The one and only exception is baptism, which is supposed to cleanse one from sin; even there, however, a person must be in a moral state able to be baptized by having sought "genuine repentance" of past deeds, thoughts and beliefs.

Normally, though, this step is reserved only when the sin is well known and may inspire others to similar acts and beliefs. At a guess, this situation falls under the rubric of "inspiring others into disrespect of Catholic doctrines," which is only a step or two away from heresy as far as the Church is concerned. That would definitely merit denial of the sacraments.  

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.

---

by: TechBear @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 08:25:16 AM CST

What kind of change is this?

The Obama Administration (and the Democratic Party) has given license for these types of shennagians just as much as the republicans have, it seems. Now organized religions seem to feel free to say or do anything. I don't personally have a problem with what they say during a service but the very idea that these religious bigots should have this type of say so and should be pushing money behind these types of campaigns and using religious sacraments to blackmail their believers into supporting their religious beliefs is highly disturbing.

To add a note to Giuliani, he's pro-choice too.

---

by: kevinchi @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 09:28:53 AM CST

Hard choice for some Catholics

I agree that the actions of this bishop are intolerant and hypocritical (given the abuse issues), to say the least. I speak as a former Catholic.  I left the church because morally and ethically I could no longer support it.  It's hard, I know, but I do think many liberal Catholics have been in denial, giving money to the church but at the same time convincing themselves that their personal beliefs somehow made  this support acceptable.  The bishop has forced the issue.  The Catholic Church IS an absolute monarchy, not a democracy.  It DOESN'T allow for a range of views on social issues.  What the bishop did should not be surprising: it is how the church operates. I think it will be harder for progressive Catholics to imagine that they can in good conscience be members of an oppressive church.  

Ken Harvey

http://www.apassionateengageme...

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by: Kenharvey @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 09:52:36 AM CST

THIS. Just this.

I gave some of my history in an above comment.

But yes, my progression from liberal Catholic (I was 6, turning to my mother going, "why can't women be priests again? And explain slowly...") to progressive Catholic (all through my 20s) took a hit in the last 2 years. You get to a point where you can't just hold your nose and stare at the glimmers of hope anymore.

Now I do not consider myself Catholic, although I can't erase 19 years of schooling. I'm defying familial pressure to raise my daughter Catholic. I'm trying to find my way back to a spirituality that allows for community worship and service.

>The Catholic Church IS an absolute monarchy, not a democracy.  It DOESN'T allow for a range of views on social issues.  

This I'm not sure of. Monarchy, sure, but a fickle one. And one that ignores dissent so long as the money trickles in and boats don't rock. There is a lot of wink-nod going on, and not just for abuse and other scandels. Sometimes the wink-nod is for the side of good too.  

---

by: lyonside @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:38:17 AM CST

[ Parent ]

You don't need a church to achieve your objective

Spirituality is found within oneself. No outside agency is required to know God, however you may perceive such a being. Good follows good, and there are many places where you can do good works and give help to those that need it. Instead of spending a couple of hours a week in a church, try volunteering at a local homeless shelter or food bank. Instead of tithing, make sandwiches and hand them out to the homeless. Service to others is not hard and it is a pattern that brings more good into the world than any church has ever wrought in society.

An American voter with a memory is like a fish with a bicycle

---

by: David C. @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 12:41:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I know - it's a personal thing though -

It's that I personally feel a need for a faith community - hence my addition of community worship in what I'm looking for. I live in my head enough as it is, and appreciate discussion of dogma and faith tenets and historical context, and I viscerally enjoy the sheer theater and catharsis of religious worship.

I donate to causes, I participate in food drives, etc. But there is strength in numbers. I'm not in a position to do it all alone. And I dont' always trust myself to do it consistently without outside impetus. A faith community helps that along in many ways (which is prob why they exist in the first place).

---

by: lyonside @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 12:52:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

faith community

Although I no longer consider myself a Catholic, I still felt and feel the need for a faith community.  I joined the UU Church about 15 years ago.  It's not perfect, but it's been very good for me overall.  I think one of the most insidious aspects of the anti-gay movement in the church is that it teaches LGBT children that they cannot have a spiritual/religious life.  Kids need to know that if they WANT a faith community, there are some that will welcome them for who they are.

Ken Harvey

http://www.apassionateengageme...

---

by: Kenharvey @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 13:19:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

..and progressivly it is admitting to being a fascist 'monarchy'...

It is not lost on anyone that the Klan chose their Kaps to reflect Bishop Mitres. Our current Papenfueher and his closed adivsors are relishing a return to 1930's Fascist Germany.

So its up to you Catholics follow your American conscience or this Fascist Pope?
Which do you really think will get you to heaven?

Remember.. if you don't learn from History you are liable to Repeat it.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

---

by: Orion45 @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:50:25 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Those pictures are scary as hell

And all too believable.  

God save ornery old queens! - kevinchi

---

by: Keori @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:00:13 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, they are

And they are quite persuasive that Catholic leaders are not always on the side of God.





Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction.

--- Blaise Pascal, Pensées, #894

---

by: Lynn Miller @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 14:56:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Gotta correct the history here, a bit

You are right that the caps of the KKK have their origin in Catholicism but it goes waaaaaaaaay back:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

They do use the Capirotes in Mexico, which became the subject of this bit of controversy on queerty some months ago:

http://www.queerty.com/this-is...

---

by: kevinchi @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 11:10:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

And ironic as hell

Because the Klan was once as vehemently anti-Catholic as it is racist.

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!

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by: Marlene @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 15:06:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I believe the Klan

stole the idea of the using the Capriotes from a Sir Walter Scott novel.

Sir Walter Scott is also where "the fiery cross" originates...it's actually a product of old Scottish culture.

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by: kevinchi @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 15:15:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It is not just an absolute monarchy,

it is a foreign power trying to impose its views on American public policy.  If it were to come to light that China, say, had a network of thousands of operatives in this country, all bent on seeing that Chinese policies are instituted here, people would be justifiably outraged, and the right-wing, teabag crowd would go positively ballistic.  But when the Vatican, which does have uncounted thousands of operatives active here, makes a similar move, our political "leaders" don't say boo about it, and the teabaggers almost literally swoon over them.  

In his set-to with Chris Matthews last night, Tobin said, point-blank, that a Catholic politician's first loyalty should be to the Vatican--which, once more, is a foreign power.  That is clearly treasonous.  But will Tobin get even a rap on the knuckles from President Fierce or Attorney General Eric "I didn't know about Maine" Holder?  Don't hold your breath.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 10:55:18 AM CST

[ Parent ]

"American Citizen's Charitable Act to All Religions"

A compassionate alternative to removing ALL tax exemptions ffom religions, I propose the "American Citizen's Charitable Act to All Religions"

The House of Worship (only the House of Worship) receives a ten percent discount on the tax any secular owner would pay on a comparable building.

Then the churches.t­emples,mos­ques,ward houses receive some consideration of respect, but it's based on the CHARITY of the public, and if that ain't good enough, we can counter with NO CHARITY at all.


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 21:07:19 PM CST

Not a bad idea at all

I don't have a problem with tax exemptions for the actual, physical church buildings.  But I don't think there's anything constitutionally that justifies exemptions for the multi-billion dollar art, stock and real estate holdings of the churches.  Taxing all of that would fund health care (to cite just one example) for centuries.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:06:57 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Interesting articlke from 1987

"Roman Catholic Mass for Homosexuals Is Banned"
1987 NY Times  article

www.theglbtactivist.org

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by: wspencer @ Tue Nov 24, 2009 at 22:52:22 PM CST

The pedophile idolators of faith will

burn in hell.  But I would prefer that their time on earth be spent at Rykers.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.-- Thomas Jefferson

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by: Mykelb @ Wed Nov 25, 2009 at 11:21:13 AM CST