NCR: Fifty Catholic Dioceses Donated To Repeal Maine Marriage Law

Dec 15th is the date of the final reporting

We should find in-kind donations, and possibly NOM donars,  if Maine's attorney general gets TOUGH.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 12:32:20 PM CST

This is money laundering, but also

I can absolutely see how this is a scheme to get community members to light their torches and storm the ballot box.  Maybe even some of the money "donated" didn't quite make it from the collection basket to the initiative.  Might be harder to follow that trail.  

Even still, isn't it true that the NO campaign raised quite a bit more money than the YES campaign and still the veto passed?

Money is important but the message is more influential.  We don't act like we are dealing with crooks and supremacists and unreasonable people during these campaigns.  We still think if we act nice enough and appear to be good, upstanding people that just want love that SURELY even a conflicted corrupt Catholic would see that we mean no harm.  

That is an even bigger lie than than the money laundering.

When do we take off the gloves?    

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by: Patrick @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 12:32:24 PM CST

According to this

SFMM raised more- much more. But while it's a moot point, we'll be able to get a much clearer idea after December 15th.

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by: Louise @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 13:02:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Why am I not surprised to see the Archdiocese of Philadelphia topping the list

The grand jury report on the Archdiocese of Philadelphia's handling of pedophile priests is stomach-turning, but they presume to tell the LGBT community in another state how to run their lives.  Disgusting.

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by: conshieguy @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 12:37:26 PM CST

the moneychangers are running the temple

The reason for having a tax exemption was for charitable purposes; indeed, from the Walz case on, the courts put religious exemption into a larger context of charitable nonprofits. Charitable, not PAC.

... It [the exemption] has not singled out one particular church or religious group or even churches as such; rather, it has granted exemption to all houses of religious worship within a broad class of property owned by nonprofit, quasi-public corporations which include hospitals, libraries, playgrounds, scientific, professional, historical, and patriotic groups.
-- Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York, 397 U.S. 664 (1970), Burger, C.J., majority

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by: coram nobis @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 13:02:26 PM CST

Bankrupt Dioceses

One thing that is overlooked in this is how this donation ties in to all of the priest abuse scandals.  Early in the campaign people mentioned how there were dioceses and parishes declaring bankruptcy, while the Church was funneling funds to Question 1.  In many cases,these parishes are struggling to stay afloat, and the Vatican does not want these parishes closing.  Therefore it will do anything it can to prevent that--unless closing that parish would help keep various incriminating records sealed that otherwise would be publicized.  I wonder just how many other abuses of power and their parishoners the Church is hiding?

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by: gayjaybird @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 13:23:14 PM CST

Corrupt pedophiles have no business pontificating

and telling people how to run their lives.  I am sick and tired of the religious in the U.S. influencing public policy and legislation.  It's time we get local, state and federal law enforcement involved in taking action to take away these corrupt businesses tax exemmptions.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.-- Thomas Jefferson

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by: Mykelb @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 13:50:50 PM CST

The real reason

Gay acceptance = more people coming forward as having been raped = disgraced, bankrupt, dead church? I think that's the real reasoning behind the (decidedly anti-Christian, not to mention immoral, not to mention based in fiction) hate campaign.

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by: ep @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 15:02:00 PM CST

Not quite...

I think it is more likely that gay acceptance = why doesn't Father just come out of the closet already? = so what exactly is the deal with priestly celibacy? = the end of the Men's Club.

From which the whole "if the Church says it just shut up and do it" house of cards collapses.

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by: Lymis @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:09:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's not a secret, attacking fags fills the coffers

The religious REICH saw the first marriage licenses issued in CA, as the ONE issue to build and bankroll their WHOLE hate agenda. Against LGBTs, against feminists, against aethiests, and against POC.
As long as bashing queers is financially beneficial that's exactly what these churches will do.
WE need to make it UNPROFITABLE, and viewed as UNFAVORABLE.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 15:34:29 PM CST

Louise, this post is utter BS

The Portland Diocese made full disclosure of all of these donations in its Oct. 13 filing.  It filed all of the disclosures that a PAC would file.  It did not hide the ball as NOM has tried to do.  Where do you think the above information comes from, anyway?  From the Archdiocese's own filing.

We didn't lose because the diocese in Biloxi contributed $500.  As I see it, we lost as a result of 1) a failure of the much-vaunted GOTV operation of No on 1 to deliver; 2) a failure to make a case for voting No based on the self-interest of the majority (something Frank Schubert recognized was critical in getting people to vote his way), and 3) a failure to capitalize on the astonishing 11th-hour admission by Marc Mutty that he mislead people about the education issue in Yes on 1 TV ads.  

If I am wrong in my diagnosis, I'd love to hear what others have to say.  But we should be focusing on the real reasons we lost, not griping about trifling amounts of money that were properly disclosed.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 16:26:34 PM CST

Trifling amounts?

$50,000.00 from two Bishops, and over ten thousand from other parrishes. You attempt to minimise the amounts by quoting ONE $500.00 amount.
The problem with Maine vote is 1. it was an off year which overwhelmingly has Senior turn out, and religious right voters in EVERY STATE. 2. Maine is a purple state which almost every election fluctuates back and forth from Democrats to Republicans by razor slim margins.
The University of Maine which got out youth voters voted 80% No on question 1.
Your revisionist history looking back on Maine, and dumping the blame personally on Louise is DISGUSTING...IMO.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:05:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Feh.

No worries, petey- and thank you. :)

It wasn't the off-year aspects; we still had a 60% voter turnout and set new records for off-year election participation.

We did great in some areas (73% in Portland!), and got demolished in others...

The big problem was my native "neck of the woods"- Second Congressional District. What worked and has always worked well in 1CD did not translate into support in 2CD.

And what's worse, 2CD has never been especially supportive. So now the task is to change that.


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by: Louise @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:47:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hi Petey!

Always nice to hear from you!  I didn't blame Louise for anything other than having a BS post about the archdiocese's disclosure.  If you want to be disgusted by that, don't let me stop you.

Anyhoo - I meant to refer to all of the out-of-state diocese contributions when I used the word "trifling."  They are trifling in the context of an election that likely will see us at the $4-4.5MM range and S4MM at the $3-3.5MM range.  In that context, $60K is not material.  It is about what S4MM spent every 12 hours or so in the last phase of the campaign.  

Your reasons for why we lost are at least dealing with the issue that we should be talking about.  We can never get this right if we don't learn from out defeats.  I would have agreed with your 1st reason, except that the turnout on 11/3 was huge and was at mid-term election levels.  So I don't think that explains it, although I agree having this on an off-year didn't help.  As for your reason 2, Ok so it's a purple state.  That means we need to craft a campaign for a purple state.  If the last polls were accurate, we lost this fight b/c we lost Republicans 75%-25%.  That is just too much of a gap to offset with sympathetic Dems.   We won't win the Repubs, but we should have been able to clip that gap substantially.  I think we could have done it by doing what Schubert does, i.e., appeal to self-interest, in addition to an appeal to principles of equity.

I don't know what your point about the "University of Maine" is supposed to mean.  First of all, the figure you cite applies to one campus in the the Univ. of Southern Maine, so get your sh*t correct.  Second, so what?  If the entire state was the University of Southern Maine, then we would have had a great campaign.  Unfortunately, it's not and we didn't.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 21:16:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

ignore

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 22:24:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Great talking w/ you

Always nice to cross swords with an intellectual giant.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 23:09:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

btw I recommend you wait until Dec 15th when ALL donations are public

Then we'll know EXACTLY where funds came from, and if they are trifling.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:08:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sure I'll wait

But Louise chose to post based on what we know now, and right now, those contributions from out-of-state dioceses are trifling.  

Incidentally, those figures are unlikely to change in the final reports, b/c the practice has been for the out-of-state diocese to send the money in to the Portland diocese, which then disclosed the contributions in their expenditure reports.  The Portland Diocese had to file daily expenditure reports for the last 10 days of the campaign, and if there had been an influx of new money from the other dioceses, it would have shown up in those reports.  But the Portland Diocese's reporting indicates that its contributions basically stopped after the mid-October filing.  I am sure that we will see on 12/15 a very substantial influx of money from NOM and possibly from the Knights of Columbus.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 21:33:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

@Daniel

Your postings include calling a poster here racist for criticizing Lou Dobbs. Here you defend the donations of Catholic Bishops....got your number cupcake.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:13:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I don't defend the donations

You seem to like ad hominem attacks, so go ahead and question my political purity, if you like.  But the truth is, if you were to read my posts on Maine you would see that I felt passionately about our fight there.  I sent money and even went to volunteer there.  

I don't "defend" the donations of the Catholic church. I think they are morally outrageous.  But that doesn't mean I accept every bit of nonsense that is posted here. The donations were legal and were disclosed.  Period.  Louise's post is wrong to the extent she implies otherwise. More to the point, the donations are not material to the loss.  We should be focusing on that.

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by: Daniel2009 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 20:53:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Then name the individuals

who donated to the Dioceses.

And then show me where in this post that either Chuck or I stated that Maine's marriage law was repealed because of the Church's financial support.

The reason we lost? Okay, I'll debate that to a degree... imo we lost because of a great strategy that worked in the First Congressional District that didn't carry over AT ALL into the Second CD.

Look at the map and it's very clear.

Overall, we lost by 32,000- but we lost the Second District by almost 55,000.

This is not new; since 1995, there have been 5 referendum questions regarding LGBT rights in one form or another in Maine.

In only 1 year has 2CD voted to support. This goes beyond NOM, the RCC, etc- this shows a gap in education, knowledge, understanding and acceptance.

So how do we counter that locally? Well, that's the big question now, isn't it?  

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by: Louise @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:39:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Another factor....hate and fear WORK

As LGBTs adapt in each marriage equality fight, our opponents also adapt.
I imagine if you polled LGBTs nationwide which state we would choose to have our next Marriage Equality fight...Maine wouldn't have made the top 30 states.
This election and Kalamazoo hiding behind children to spew their hate became more focused and uglier. When were we supposed to know children followed into restrooms would be used against our LIBERTIES?
I only hope when PA and AZ Catholic parrishes are shut down, or charitable actions curtailed, or more victims of pedofiles emerge, LGBTs rub those $50K donations to Maine, in their BISHOP'S faces UNMERCIFULLY.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:58:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

it cuts both ways

You're right about it working, but two can play that game. We can run images of children and menacing figures, men in black dresses, er, robes, and a montage of ugly headlines about priests and coverups and settlements. Creepy music in the background. "[ominous baritone] On Nov. 3, before you vote yes on 1, think of who is backing it [two second pause] ... and think of the children."

Sure, it's Catholic-bashing, but we were accused of that anyway. The Bible lesson here is, as ye sow, so shall ye reap.

Odium duum metuant.

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by: coram nobis @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 20:31:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Three words

Education, education, education!

Letters to the Editor once a month or so of the horror stories of the lack of marriage rights of G&L couples, another hate crime where the police do nothing, another Catholic priest scandal, etcetera.

You and your friends need to hit the opposition hard. With one negative letter, send two. Be respectful and be above the fray. The minute you get down to their level, you'll wear as much mud as they are.

Listen to "TransTalk" every Monday from 4-5pm ET on http://www.falconradio.org beginning January 11th!

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by: Marlene @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:03:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes.

Visibility, education, open support from neighbors- these are KEY to real change in peoples' minds and voting practices. Dispel the rumors, myths and lies...


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by: Louise @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:11:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yeah, great strategy

First, the Diocese does not have to disclose all of the individual donors to the Diocese any more than HRC has to disclose all HRC donors when it makes its filing.  What they have to disclose are entities that sent money in to the Diocese for the purpose of being spent on Question 1.  They do that in their Oct. 13 filing.  Anyone can go look it up at the ME CGEEP website.

Second, I didn't say that you said we lost Maine because of the out-of-state diocese funding.  I am suggesting that you are focusing on that as a way of trying to minimize our defeat.  Why have lengthy posts on diocese contributions but no substantial posts on the reasons for the defeat itself?

Third, I have looked at the map.  Although I haven't done a town-by-town, county-by-county review, every one that I have looked at shows that we did worse in all areas of the state than we did in 2005.  Where we won in 2005, we sometimes won in 2009 but with thinner margins.  And we had some shocking flips to the loss column, including Augusta (where No on 1 had a field office) and indeed Kennebec County generally, both of which we won in 2005 and lost this time.  Where we lost in 2005, we lost again in 2009, but by larger margins.  So - there was an inability either to limit the loss margins in the north and an inability to boost the victory margins in the south, which is what our supposedly superior GOTV operation was going to accomplish.  

BTW, how about a reaction to the other 2 reasons that I suggest contributed to the defeat?

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by: Daniel2009 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 21:02:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, you are wrong.

The point of this story is simply reporting, not "exposing."  To call it BS is to miss a point so obvious any functional adult should be embarrassed by it.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 11:24:06 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I can think of so many better ways to spend that type of money...

1. providing homeless families with food, clothing, and shelter.

2. paying back the student loans of public servants.

3. helping those with high medical bills.

The list goes on and on. I think everyone can think of how to use that type of money for the greater good (a more perfect Union) than restricting the civil rights of a minority.

History will call this what it is: a national embarassment.

"First, they came for the Jews..."  

"I like your Christ, but do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." ~Gandhi

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by: keithan81 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 17:23:11 PM CST

I'm a Mainer

Several things pushed this vote through. Outright lies fueled it all. People that collected the signatures to get it on the ballot giving 1/2 the information or none at all to get signatures (some simply saying things like "if you want to be able to vote you need to sign." implying that it was on the ballot already and if you didn't sign you couldn't vote.). Then there was the hate mail, yes hate mail. Nasty vile about pedophiles being allowed to teach our kids and the "agenda" being forced in the schools was the big one. The hate group in Utah fax bombed the state with fliers that were just disgusting ending with a plea to go view the "kill Obama" video on youtube. I had several discussions with Catholics that were in fear of literally going to hell if they voted yes or skipped the vote. I assume that was the direct message they were getting in church every day. I am waiting to see the tally on the age groups that voted, I know the median age of the people at the polls when I went was around 68, several of them actually brought their bible in with them. I'm sorry to those that disagree, but the Diocese was the driving force behind getting it on the ballot with lies and fear, and the driving force for the vote going the way that it did with the same lies and fear. All we need to do to see the truth is to look at what they are threatening to do in DC right now. It is clear they want a theocracy not a democracy.

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by: Sassymom08 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:44:18 PM CST

An Honest Observation

And they are getting their theocracy via democracy. Sad and scary.  

"I like your Christ, but do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." ~Gandhi

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by: keithan81 @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:47:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Focus on Catholics

I was reading some accounts on Philly archdioces, seems the main oversight to pedofile complaints is a big PRO-LIFE woman lawyer...yeah she'd never side with the dioces over kids who got themselves raped. The same folks who care about children from conception to birth...that's ALL.
Also the revelations from Ireland, show an insurance company policy from 1987 the cardinals bought to pay out future child sex scandals.
I'd like to know what insurance company sold these policies,(could it be Knights of Columbus?) and which American dioces might have them.
I think we could bring state laws or initiatives against selling any insurance policies protecting against child rapes.
I propose we focus on Dioces with large LGBT communities, Philly which launched a big gay friendly tourism ad promotion, might be a dioces we could focus like a laser on. If we could damage the image or topple a huge Catholic dioces, it will make other dioces think twice about screwing with us. Providence is another possibility, and DC which really angered America with their blackmail threat against feeding the homeless.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 18:58:24 PM CST

Another strategy

Maryland archdioces went into bankrupotsy as have 7 other dioces which stops pedofile complaints from proceeding.
We should pass laws that individual dioces going into bankruptsy, doesn't protect them against child rapes,and the VATICAN and all dioces in every country are collectively responsible for all payments if an archdioces renigs on paying damages.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:05:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

pedofile insurance policy

"But perhaps the most disturbing part is learning how the Church bought what could only be called "pedophile priest insurance":

The report rejected the bishops' key claim that they were ignorant of both the scale and criminality of priests' abuse of children. It dug up a documentary trail showing that the Dublin Archdiocese negotiated a 1987 insurance policy for future legal costs of defending lawsuits and compensation claims.
The investigators said McNamara, Ryan and McQuaid knew about at least 17 priests linked to child abuse in their archdiocese when that policy went into effect."The taking out of insurance was an act proving knowledge of child sexual abuse as a potential major cost to the archdiocese and is inconsistent with the view that archdiocesan officials were still `on a learning curve' at a much later date, or were lacking in appreciation of the phenomenon of clerical child sex abuse," the report said.
Those guilty are lucky that there isn't really a hell."

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:16:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

link for insurance article

    http://www.theipu.com/2009/11/...

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:17:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

here is a Spokane AUTO insurance company paying for pedofiles

How the f*ck did they get to write pedofile insurance policies?
 "An insurance company will pay the Spokane Catholic Diocese $6 million to help settle claims of sexual abuse by priests.

The diocese settlement with Oregon Auto Insurance Co. is the fourth such agreement, which together have raised $16 million so far. Two other insurance carriers have yet to settle coverage disputes with the diocese.

Oregon Auto pledged to pay $5 million once the diocese has a court-approved plan to exit bankruptcy protection and pay sex-abuse victims. Another $1 million will be paid to the diocese in the year 2010"

http://www.spokesmanreview.com...

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:28:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Miami has or had insurance for pedofiles

"Since 1966, the Archdiocese of Miami Insurance Programs have paid $26.1 million in settlement, legal and counselling costs associated with sexual misconduct allegations made by minors involving priests, laity and religious brothers and sisters."
  http://jp2army.blogspot.com/

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:21:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

tell it to opposition research, next campaign

Worth checking out the local archdiocese's history on such matters, wherever marriage or domestic-partners law is up for a vote again. Especially the dollar figures.

"[voice over montage of headlines, cascading dollars, and lawyers' briefcases, with audio of gavels banging and old-fashioned cash registers ringing in the background] The Archdiocese of [local] spent $XXX,000 in support of Proposition Y on your ballot. The same Archdiocese spent $X.Y million on child-abuse settlements since 1990. The same Archdiocese transferred X priests to avoid 'scandal,' and had Y priests convicted of felony molestation or embezzlement. The same Archdiocese closed X parish churches this year.

On Nov. 7th, remember this when you vote NO on Proposition Y."

Odium duum metuant.

O LORD, the God who avenges, O God who avenges, shine forth. Rise up, O Judge of the earth; pay back to the proud what they deserve. How long will the wicked, O LORD, how long will the wicked be jubilant? They pour out arrogant words; all the evildoers are full of boasting. They crush your people, O LORD; they oppress your inheritance.
-- Psalm 94:1-5 (NIV)

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by: coram nobis @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 20:43:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Et tu Providence?

Ten grand? Tell me, how many people would $10,000 feed and for how long?

Instead our Mr. Tobin (I refuse to give him his honorific due as Bishop!) sends $10,000 to defeat equal rights.

Tobin is, in so many words, an asshole.  

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by: truthspew @ Fri Nov 27, 2009 at 19:23:25 PM CST

Who's not on this list...

is even more curious to me.

No Cardinal George from the Archdiocese of Chicago...

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by: kevinchi @ Sat Nov 28, 2009 at 11:33:31 AM CST