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It's Not God Saying Gays Should Be Put to Death, It's YOU

by: waymonhudson

Wed Feb 24, 2010 at 14:04:13 PM EST


(Thanks, Waymon, for this post and for helping me find my head after this morning's explosion! ;) - promoted by Louise)

Alright. Let's get one thing straight, fundie homophobes- you don't get a pass when you "quote" the Leviticus Bible verse saying:
Lauren Ashley.png

If man lies with a man as he would lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them.
This may come as a shock to the "hate the sin, love the sinner" set, but by quoting that verse, it's not God saying that gays should be put to death- it's YOU.  It's not simply a personal religious view or a debatable "political difference" or a great talking point.  YOU are saying that I should be put to death.

This week we've heard it from everyone from a Ugandan Pastor to another California Beauty Queen, Miss Beverly Hills 2010 Lauren Ashley.  And despite them both saying they 'don't hate gay people', there's not much love in saying I should have 'blood upon me.'  That's not really a debatable point.

Of course we've all heard that Leviticus quote in every debate about homosexuality and LGBT rights that comes up.  Everyone from Focus on the Family to politicians to Westboro Baptist Church throws that verse up as a bump-sticker quote that explains why they hate us- and why it's beyond their control that they do.

waymonhudson :: It's Not God Saying Gays Should Be Put to Death, It's YOU
images.jpegThey just can't help it- God says so.

Uganda's Porn Peddling Pastor Martin Ssempa uses the quote to explain why his country should pass the "Kill the Gays" Bill, even while at the same time he says he doesn't hate gays. It's just about the act, not the person.  It's out of his hands- that verse means we should die.  It's not up to him.

6a00d8341c2ca253ef01310f309a66970c-400wi.jpgEven the new Miss Beverly Hills 2010 Lauren Ashley uses the verse to explain why it's okay if she hates the gays:
The Bible says that marriage is between a man and a woman. In Leviticus it says, 'If man lies with mankind as he would lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them.' The Bible is pretty black and white.  I feel like God himself created mankind and he loves everyone, and he has the best for everyone. If he says that having sex with someone of your same gender is going to bring death upon you, that's a pretty stern warning, and he knows more than we do about life.
Yet in the same breath, she says she personally doesn't hate gays, we just have a friendly difference of opinion:
That isn't really the issue. I have a lot of friends that are gay, and ... I have a lot of friends who have different views, and we share our views together.
See?  It's not Miss Beverly Hills who thinks you should die- just ask her gay friends!

This verse has become a homophobic cover for people to try to wash their hands of the damage they are doing and the violent, extremist views they hold.  It's become an accepted talking point for bigots and haters, parroted without any real thought about the consequences of saying a swath of people should be killed because their personal idea of 'God says so.'  (Oddly, the same people breeze over other 'abomination' verses in the same book and put on their mixed fiber clothing and eat their shrimp scampi after church.)  I've personally heard that 'gays should be killed verse way too much in my life.  It's what started my life as an activist when a skycap played it over the intercom in Fort Lauderdale Airport as a joke.  Because saying I should die is simply hilarious.

Think it's a stretch to mention the Ugandan Pastor and a California Beauty Queen in the same post?  It's not.  It's the "trickle down" hate effect.  Leaders crow about how gays should die and then small-minded bigots use it in casual conversation.  It's all the same hate.

That's why it's important that we don't give passes to people like Miss Beverly Hills.  She invoked 'death for gays' in a discussion on gay marriage (and pageants) and wasn't challenged by the interviewer.  That's how accepted the talking point has become.  That's what we are facing.  

And that's why we have to always call it out.

Let's be clear: when you trot out this Bible verse, you are endorsing it, embracing it, and wrapping yourself in it.  No amount of "I have gay friends", "it's just the act", or excuse-making will soften it.  YOU are saying I should be killed.  

You can't wipe your hands of it, you can't act shocked when violence happens to LGBT people, and you can't distance yourself from it.  YOU own it.  YOU are part of it.

And no amount of fancy pageant walking will change that.
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This touches on one of my objections to religion generally
...namely, the claim that, "God says so." It shuts down all discussion with anyone that disagrees with the fundies, this divine imprimatur they claim for their beliefs. If God says it's so, and you disagree with it, you're disagreeing with God. Therefore, you're a sinner, and you must suffer and better repent. There's no arguing with God.


"More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read." -- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

Oh sure there is.
I will happily argue with God. I highly doubt there is such a being, but even if God were real and really did create us and really did have the power to send me to hell for disobeying him... I would still tell him to STFU. No deity that is petty and judgmental deserves to be worshiped by anyone. I don't care what he's created.

An abused child has the right to stand up to their abusive parent, even if that child owes that parent for its existence.


[ Parent ]
Thank you.
This couldn't be more plainly stated.

I will not settle for anything less than the same rights as everyone else.

[ Parent ]
god said it
for a long time a church i pass on the way to work had the phrase "God said it, We believe it, That settles it" on their advertisement board for a long time.  

folk the war

[ Parent ]
I recall...
...seeing a documentary about gays and religion (the name of it escapes me at the moment) in which a Pastor debunked this whole notion with a very simple solution.  He said something to the effect of, "People tell me, 'Well, this is what the Bible says.'  No, it doesn't  This is what the Bible reads."

And therein lies the difference.


That's a deepity right there.
Deepity: Philosopher Dan Dennett's word for a phrase that sounds "deep", but really isn't.

The pastor did not "debunk" anything. He just covered up the issue with some vague, obscure rhetoric that sounds a lot more profound than it actually is.

The Bible does say that men who have sex with men should be put to death. It says it right there in black and white (print), just as Miss Bev Hills has suggested.

This should be your first clue that the Bible is not the wonderful moral guide believers claim it is.

If I was going to hold one book up as holy and good, I would pick one that didn't in any way, shape or form say gays should be murdered. And don't tell me I'm taking it out of context. If I were going to worship a book, I would pick one that didn't even lend itself to that interpretation at all, in any context.

But then I'm not religious. I don't worship a book.


[ Parent ]
thank you
So perfectly put.

[ Parent ]
Like the word!
Eshto, I've never heard "deepity" before, but I like it.

I'd disagree that there was anything that even sounds "profound".  I just happen to agree with it's simplicity, because I'm a semi-religious person who believes that what the bible "reads" and what the bible "says" are two different things.  But then that becomes a more complex issue of one's theology.


[ Parent ]
This is that movie!
It's called "For The Bible Tells Me So", which is an excellent documentary!

Everyone should buy copy for themselves (even atheists), their families and their friends!

This awesome documentary totally debunks all the Biblical BS about God hates gays.

Through the experiences of five very normal, very Christian, very American families -- including those of former House Majority Leader Richard Gephardt and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson -- we discover how insightful people of faith handle the realization of having a gay child. Informed by such respected voices as Bishop Desmond Tutu, Harvard's Peter Gomes, Orthodox Rabbi Steve Greenberg and Reverend Jimmy Creech, FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO offers healing, clarity and understanding to anyone caught in the crosshairs of scripture and sexual identity.

Here's the link to their website:
http://www.forthebibletellsmes...

"Every time an ambulance passes it is either someone who opposes gay rights dying or someone who supports them being born."
~ Christopher Hayes


[ Parent ]
Even better? It looks like she's a fraud
 (well, more of one than ever we though).  From  the Advocate:

On Wednesday, Beverly Hills officials released a statement saying the city was shocked by Ashley's position and by her supposed title as Miss Beverly Hills. The city "does not sponsor a beauty pageant and has no association with Miss California USA," the statement said. "As such, there should be no individual claiming the title of Miss Beverly Hills." In fact, according to Beverly Hills officials, Ashley lives in Pasadena, Calif., and, therefore "does not represent Beverly Hills in any capacity."

Way to vet your bigots, media....


Bearing False Witness anyone?
I bet if we looked really hard enough we could find verses in the Bible that would justify stoning "Ms. Bev Hills" for her lie, wearing clothing of mixed threats, wearing read cloth, eating shellfish, etc.

The bible contains so much that much of it ends up contracting itself after a while.

Worship God, Love your neighbor; all the rest is commentary.


"wearing clothing of mixed threats"
Considering the point of the post - that she is directly threatening LGBT people each time she quotes that phrase, while using its being a quote to disguise the fact - that's a very telling typo.

[ Parent ]
Sorry
I should have said apt typo.  Assuming it was a typo, and not commentary.

[ Parent ]
Miss Beverly Hills Lives in Pasadena
Beverly Hills condemns "Miss Beverly Hills"
Timothy Kincaid
February 24th, 2010

Alas, poor girl. The City of Beverly Hills was not as amused. They issued a press release:

   City of Beverly Hills Disavows Miss California USA Contestant's Statements

  Beverly Hills, CA - The City of Beverly Hills today denounced statements made by Miss California USA contestant Lauren Ashley, the self-described Miss Beverly Hills. Ms. Ashley resides in Pasadena and is currently a contestant for the Miss California USA title. She does not represent Beverly Hills in any capacity.

   The City of Beverly Hills strongly condemns Ms. Ashley's recent statements and has contacted pageant officials to determine ways to formally prevent any beauty contestants claiming the title of Miss Beverly Hills in the future. The City of Beverly Hills does not sponsor a beauty pageant and has no association with Miss California USA. As such, there should be no individual claiming the title of Miss Beverly Hills.

   "The City Council was shocked to see statements made by a beauty pageant contestant under the name of Beverly Hills who does not live in nor represent our city. We are dismayed by any potential association with the City of Beverly Hills, which has a long history of tolerance and respect," said Beverly Hills Mayor Nancy Krasne.

http://www.beverlyhills.org/ci...

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.c...


Again
No one who relies on any English translation of Grimm's Fairy Tales, oh, 'scuse moi, the bible, has any idea what it actually says. A) one needs to read from the original to see what it says, B) it's only one of hundreds of so-called sacred texts in the world, and C) the book that has survived to the present reflects a megalomaniacal church's use of that which supported it's agendas at the time it was compiled. A history of the church and it's crimes against humanity is enlightening when considering how much moral imperative it's adherents deserve. It is their shear numbers which gives them voice, no more. We have numbers, too. Let's pull them together.

Rangatiratanga-the inalienable right to existence and self determination

C'mon let's get to the real issue here
There is nothing about this preening young thang in the street walker red ho-dress that even remotely says "beauty" or "queen" or "Beverly" or hills; other than when you see her coming, "run for the"....

Always thinking about it...

So how does she feel about slavery and polygamy?
I'm no bible scholar, but my understanding is that both polygamy and slavery have unabashed support within the 'good' book.  I note your mention of other Levitical law concerning seafood, e.g., but feel you can put a much bigger takedown on use of the Bible for moral purposes by using a much more well known moral outrage (slavery) which has already been overthrown in the court of Christian public opinion.

Enjoy.

Mom always told me I was special and I believed her.


I hope she's a virgin...
if not, her father needs to take her out and stone her to death.

[ Parent ]
A Jewish Rabi has a different translation the Leviticus Bible verse
A while back I read something written by a Jewish Rabi who was talking about some problems with the common translation of this Torah/Bible verse from Leviticus. If I remember correctly, he said that in the original Hebrew there are two completely different words for used for "man" in the text. The first Hebrew word more accurately translates as "adult male".

He explained that the problem is with translation of the second Hebrew word used in this passage, which is a completely different word then the first word used.
According to this Rabi, the second and different Hebrew word has 3 or 4 different meanings, none of which are for an "adult male" and that a more correct and accurate translation in the context of the passage would be "young male" or "boy".

If this Rabi correct, then the passage should be translated to read: "If an 'adult male' lies with a 'boy' as he would lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death and their blood shall be upon them.' Therefore, if the Rabi is indeed correct about this, then the passage is actually condemning an act of "pedophilia" and not homosexuality.

In the context of the time when Leviticus was written and the intended purpose, this translation makes a lot of sense. During this time many of the other religions in those ancient times, used the ritual prostitution of young boys/young males in their temples as a way to make money to support the temples.    

A second point is that, in the original context, Leviticus is a ritual manual and code written specifically and intended only for the use of Israel's priests of that time, the tribe of Levite who were to use it as a ritual code to follow. It was not intended as a code for the other tribes of Israel or anyone else to follow.  

While trying to relocate the article written by the Rabi, I came across this interesting piece written by an affirming Baptist church which is surprisingly very supportive of gays and lesbians titled: HOMOSEXUALITY: Not a Sin, Not a Sickness What the Bible Does & Does Not Say. http://tinyurl.com/yj28b7t Its a very interesting read and touches on my second point.

I haven't been able to relocate the Rabi's article yet. I will post it here later if I find it again.
     


Thanks
 I've been saying this for some time. There are several passages which, when in the original and translated thru non-homophobic eyes, may have a very different meaning. I am not referring to 'interpretation', but the actual words and phrases.
Having mentioned interpretation; The OT describes three same-sex relationships that, again when viewed thru non-homophobic eyes, may be read as intimate, vis-a-vis sexual. Ruth and Naomi, Daniel and Aspenaz, David and Jonathan. Again, the bias of a translator is the key. Unfortunately these nay-sayers have nicely packaged 'pat' responses about divinely inspired scribes &c.
The 'hot' words: 'abomination' was translated from 'to-ebah'. This has several other meanings which, all taken into consideration, cast reasonable doubt as to the intended meaning of the passages in which it is found(100 references in OT). 'Arsenokoitai' appears to be a word created by Paul, known for being obtuse, and does not exist in the ancient Greek. In both cases other words would likely have been used for referring to homosexuality as we know it. They were not.
I would refer you and others to: www.religioustolerance.org for more information.  

Rangatiratanga-the inalienable right to existence and self determination

[ Parent ]
If there be a god...
may I be struck down by lightning as I write thi

Carry the fire. - Paul Kantner

*snort*
Just kidding! I'm still here! Unlike Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Thor, etc, who do not, and never have, existed.

Carry the fire. - Paul Kantner

[ Parent ]
Good comments
Here's another resource on what the Bible does & does not say:  http://www.mccchurch.org/AM/Te...

NO Christian today--gay, straight, bi, trans--is bound by Leviticus.  Those who do follow its proscriptions regarding diet, dress, etc., are Orthodox Jews.  For a Christian, it's important to know that Jesus has released us from that set of laws, while binding us to the higher law of love.  (Jesus even violated the law by working on the Sabbath and said that "The law is made for people, not people for the law").

It's also important to know why the levitical laws were there in the first place.  After a period of great disruption & suffering, the ancient Jews looked to their relationship with God and understood their suffering as the consequence of falling out of right relationship with God.  They apparently decided that only adherence to a strong code would protect them (in part buying into a much older idea of placating the deity as the way to "get right" with God, and believing that was what God wanted from them).  Underlying a number of the levitical laws is the idea of "purity," which often meant maintaining an identity separate from that of neighboring peoples.  That worked--that identity was maintained--but the idea of keeping suffering at bay not so much.  (Later, the Romans move in, destroy the Temple, etc.).

For a modern Christian (who still seeks "right relationship" with God), it's more a matter of looking back to see how the ancestors thought they would achieve right relationship and how they may have overdone it, and an opportunity to reflect on what God might actually want from God's people.  Maybe God doesn't really care whether you eat pork or not (among other things).  Jesus also said, (I paraphrase), it's not what goes into your mouth--it's what comes out.  (Try that on someone spouting wingnuttery sometime).

Or try this:  "Love is patient.  Love is kind.  Love is never jealous or conceited or proud...  Love does not keep a record of wrongs...  Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth"  (yes, it's brother Paul in Corinthians, but sometimes he was right on target).  That's actually a pretty good way to live, whatever one's orientation.

Peace to all, noahsdad

 


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