Gen. Pace: no apologies for calling gays immoral

Yawn

Really, I can't get too worked up over this asshole.  What, the Man doesn't like queers?  Shock of shocks!  The military is rife with far right Bible thumpers.  That is where the real danger is; I can't really see the military as my protector, because I know if they were to take control I and my queer brethren would be the first up against the wall.

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by: JoshWatermanMN @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:02:06 PM CDT

if you expect to be 1st up against the wall,

then how can you not get worked up about what this guy said?  just because his attitude isn't surprising doesn't mean it is kosher.  the situation needs some light, then heat, shed on it.  IMHO!

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:25:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, it's not kosher

He knows what he said, he just doesn't care.  These far right people know what they say is hurtful and derogatory, they just don't care.  Random cruelty is part of their culture.

What I was trying to say is that Pace's behavior is indicative of a larger culture of extreme fundamentalism, and it is this culture that needs to be addressed, not some stale cracker's opinion on morality.  I don't give a fuck what the fool says.  He doesn't scare me.  The big nasty war machine he represents scares the fuck out of me, and that is the monster that we should focus on slaying.

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by: JoshWatermanMN @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:40:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

most think pace doesn't need to apologize

There's a poll on msn page...should Pace apologize.  Current polling has 71% saying NO pace shouldn't have to apologize for calling homosexuals immoral...This in itself is a double insult/injury.  WTF????

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by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:03:09 PM CDT

I've given up a long time ago

Seeking acceptance from these people.  For the record, I am kind of glad he didn't apologize, because if he did it would have come out as less than genuine.  I like knowing where I stand with people, and I know with Pace I am immoral. 

Whether the there are large groups of people in the public who hate us is a moot point.  There is always going to be a group who is going to hate another group for whatever reason.  You can't change that.  My demand for rights equal to those held by a heterosexual does not hinge on my acceptance by others.  Their backward places of worship can damn me on a daily basis, I am still going to live my life as I always have.  Pace is a blithering idiot and his opinion is a gnat's fart in a tornado.  He'll probably be wormfood before me, and I will probably be still living my sinful, immoral life joyously while he is in his heaven getting footrubs from Eva Braun and Ann Coulter. 

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by: JoshWatermanMN @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:14:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't need no stinkin apology....

And I hope this will cause all the others who support this policy and views to speak up so we can see who the true homophobe bigots are and who are the ones with an open mind to counter such views.

America is slowly waking up. One day, most of these people like Pace will be look down on instead of up to.

Thanks, Pace!

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by: Pta @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:31:28 PM CDT

But we can still pay his salary - right?

Isn't it interesting that people like Pace see no problem with voicing their bigotry, yet those same "immoral" people, as taxpayers, are just fine? I mean, if we are so immoral that we should not be in the military, why is it more moral to take our $$ for his salary and his military? I mean, gay money must cause the same problems as gay people - right?

Therefore I call on Mr. Pace (I see no need to use his title if he is so bigoted) to remit 5% of his total salary - for ALL his years in the military - to remove the stain of immorality from his bank account.

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by: CPT_Doom @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:37:10 PM CDT

The Apology Ask

Something to consider: whether anyone wants or needs an apology from Pace, it should still be demanded.  Why?  Because it demonstrates to DoD and fence-sitters that his "reasoning" is not acceptable and DADT is unpopular.

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:38:41 PM CDT

well, that's okay.

I think what HE's doing -- and militarism in general -- is immoral, and i won't apologize for that view.  So i don't expect him to either.

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by: sabrinaqedesha @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 14:46:34 PM CDT

Chambers likes this guy's "honesty"?

Funny that Chambers would admire Gen. Pace's honesty seeing as he has had documented problems with his own honesty.

j.

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by: Jonathan @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:00:58 PM CDT

Remember Sheila Hein

I just left my anti-Pace comment on the DoD web site (completely professional, of course), and during the writing of it, I remembered something that really got my goat, and that I included in my comment. Let us not forget that one of the Pentagon heroes on 9/11 was Sheila Hein, a civilian employee of the military who was also a lesbian, in a committed relationship. Comments such as General Pace's only serve to denigrate this amazing woman and her sacrifice for her country - one also wonders how General Pace is able to work with all the immoral people in the Pentagon who are civilian employees.

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by: CPT_Doom @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:01:23 PM CDT

Well, I'm going to repeat something I posted on another blog

and add my reasoning that his butt should be kicked out of the Joint Chiefs pronto. . .

Pace based his response as the leader of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on his personal "upbringing," not his training as an officer of the military forces of the United States. He was asked this question because of his position, not his person, and his response indicates to me that his loyalty is not to the people of the United States, or the government of the United States, but to his "upbringing" which, to no surprise, includes the influence of the Vatican.

His remarks, though personal in nature, have done more than just insult the presence of those silent gay and lesbian soldiers bravely making greater sacrifices (by concealing their identity) than their heterosexual counterparts in the military. His remarks could well directly affect our national security.

The overwhelming majority of our allies in NATO, our primary allies in the Pacific rim, and others in Asia allow gays to serve openly in their military. The United States has engaged in well over a dozen military operations after the Persian Gulf War which involved conducting joint operations with many of these same countries. Our allies in Iraq and Afghanistan allow gay citizens to openly serve in the military. Pace's "personal" remarks were an insult to every soldier of every country this nation engages with in cooperative security.

His personal position is that the soldiers of these nations are "immoral," while apparently the superior American "race" will remain "moral" as long as the queers are persecuted out of the service.

Our nation is dependent upon the military bases we have built in dozens of nations around the globe, and our most important bases are in nations which have not only been loyal allies but who include gay citizens in full participation in serving their nations in the armed forces. How does this chief of staff expect to meet the military leaders of these other nations, coordinate joint operations and war games, with this kind of personal chip on his shoulder? If he is incapable of respecting the rights of gay American citizens here in the United States, there is little chance he will respect those serving in other countries who we depend on for logistical, support and comrade assistance.

That position places this nation, and our national security, at a much greater risk. NATO could take these remarks seriously and as an indication that the United States is unable to cooperate effectively in military operations with other members. Australia, New Zealand, and Taiwan could easily come to the conclusion that American military personnel cannot be trusted working with their units because their highest ranking officer represented an opinion which insults the effectiveness and the cohesiveness of their armed forces.

Pace needs to resign. His continued priority of loyalty to the Vatican before the United States, and his dismissal of the requirements of our collective security arrangements are enough to conclude that his continued participation on the Joint Chiefs of Staff is a threat to American national security.

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by: kevinbgoode @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:04:28 PM CDT

Chambers, as usual, proves he is an ex-gay-for-pay

with this remark:

  "I am thankful for the fact that we still have leaders in high posts who are willing to be respectfully honest about their beliefs and opinions without regard for what is politically correct.  I am tired of our leaders caving into the intimidation that comes from the heavy handed gay activist community.  There is still room in the debate over homosexuality for the Judeo-Christian perspective."
------------------------------------------------

Since this policy was designed by politics, doofus, it is obviously that you are all for 'political correctness."

  This nation is not interested in the twisted superstitions created by insecure white men to justify their sins.
Pace can go be the Chief of Staff for the Vatican if he wants to serve his "faith" before his country.

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by: kevinbgoode @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:09:58 PM CDT

There is still room in the debate over homosexuality for the Judeo-Christian perspective."

Really?  Who knew?  Maybe then there is room in talk of race relations for the White Supremacist perspective.  Or how about the Nazi perspective regarding Jewish history? 

I would find a perspective that attacks Christianity virulently, but I can't find anything to match the wickedness of Nazis and White Supremacists.

White American Christians possessing penises are the most priviledged people on the planet, end of story.  Their perspective, the "Judeo-Christian perspective," informs almost all dogma and public policy.  We know your perspective, because your perspective is our prison.  When we try to break out, you accuse us of attacking you. 

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by: JoshWatermanMN @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:23:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well done!

It annoys the heck out of me that these arrogant, self-appointed representatives of the "judeo-christian" perspective think they own the monopoly on all things theological and, in following, all things "moral."

The issue is about responsible citizenship serving our country, Mr. Chambers - not lockstep acquiescence to some manufactured "judeo-christian" belief system your employers dreamed up to gain money and power for yourselves.

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by: kevinbgoode @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:52:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Disgrace

In my service I learned that what ever ones function, one is a soldier of the state. I would class such a man as a disgrace as a soldier.

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by: Carbonchild @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:33:57 PM CDT

Is it just me?

Or are the haters becoming more convicted in their hate?

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by: callie @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:38:07 PM CDT

It is not just you

I've noticed the same thing.

I would like to think it is the death throes of an idealogy about to lose power.

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by: JusticeForAll @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 15:44:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No

They're just dropping the masks of being "Pro-Family" and "Defenders of Marriage" to come right out and say what they feel.  It's amazing what the threat of losing power does to people.

Just like when an animal gets cornered it starts lashing out and baring it's teeth.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

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by: Daimeon @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 16:09:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm glad Pace was honest, and think

it's inappropriate to call for an apology for his having this, or any, conviction, while it's very appropriate to say "I don't agree with you," and explain why.  What calls for apology is the use of this, or any, conviction to treat human beings prejudicially and unfairly.  Which happens.

I think it's VERY healthy to get this stuff out in the open.  (cf. Hardaway.)  If a view that "homosexuality is immoral" is behind his, or anyone's, support of DADT, we need to have some conversations on that subject.

And a standing ovation to (Republican) Senator Warner for saying what he said.  (What will Senator Clinton say -- perhaps nothing?)

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by: KC @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 17:15:01 PM CDT

This also informs my opinion

. . . that his apology--had one been forthcoming--should not be desired or accepted.  People can have any opinion they wish.  Pace conflates his personal religious beliefs with what is best for the military, and that is a problem.  The military is rife with religious fundamentalism, and that should concern anyone who is not a religious fundamentalist.  Pace, though, is a very small turd in the great big toilet bowl that is homophobia. 

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by: JoshWatermanMN @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 17:51:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pace

Yeah, General Pace is a laugh-riot. Yammering on the morality of "homosexuality" whilst deeply involved with the slaughter of civillians.

Charming, no?

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by: brat @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 17:23:28 PM CDT

Judeo-bullshit

Okay, enough of these idiots with their bogus "Judeo-Christian perspective on homosexuality."  Don't rope another whole religous culture into your bigotry, please.  And try reading the news for once in a decade--there have been gay rabbis, gay synagogues, gay commitment ceremonies and marriages for years.  Most of us left our intolerance and ignorance behind--try it, it's refreshing.  You wanna be  a bigot, stand on your own two feet (of clay).

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

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by: Lev Raphael @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 17:29:22 PM CDT

NEXT TIME Islamist Terroists strike America

NEXT TIME Islamist Terroists strike America....(and make no mistake they will attack us repeatedly), and you've gotten rid of over 32 gay linguists, and you have ANOTHER motherf*ckin 200 hours of untranslated intercepted messages...REMEMBER gays/lesbians volunteered to serve their country...and you SPIT ON THEM!

Pace and Collin Powell you continue to serve Bush, I wouldn't want any of you a$$holes holding a single gay service member's life in your hands..you're NOT worthy of their courage.

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by: underbear1 @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 17:40:03 PM CDT

"little Peter" Pace upholds stereoype of Marines

they're ALL bottoms!

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by: underbear1 @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 17:43:39 PM CDT

Am I immoral or do I have a condition?

Prior to Peter Pace's asinine immorality comments, I remember that in mid-November 2006 the Pentagon reclassified homosexuality as a condition, in the same grouping as bed-wetting, fear of flying, stammering or stuttering, dyslexia, sleepwalking, motion sickness, obesity and insect venom allergies!

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by: swingshift @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 18:11:33 PM CDT

maybe what you have

is a homobigot venom allergy.

Lurleen on Twitter

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 19:11:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let Pace Open His Mouth

And stick his foot in it.  And then the other.  We didn't come off looking bad, he did.  Between Pee-Pee and Ann Coulter, we actually may have gotten some good p.r.  Because if idiots hate us...

=>The truth usually isn't pretty. Don't blame me for telling it.<=

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by: Chadster @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 20:11:03 PM CDT

He needs to be fired

"apologies" are a joke. I want to know how his bigotry affects the morale of the tens of thousands of gays and lesbians serving honorably.

And I want to know why people aren't demanding his resignation, but will get all in a tizzy over a nothing like Ann Coulter ?

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by: tiponeill @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 20:24:43 PM CDT

what a thing for him to say...

about the Vice Presidents daughter.

She is a pregnant woman after all.

She is a pregnant unmarried lesbian and she is Dick Cheney's daughter.

She is the epitome of immoral.

Poor Dick and Lynn must be crushed.

Please make the check out to Republican National committee..

I wonder if John Edwards is any closer to understanding...anything...yet.

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by: Patrick @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 20:48:00 PM CDT

Please COSPONSOR HR 1246

I'd encourage folks to go to Bauer's website and rewrite the letter, and send a letter encouraging repeal of DADT on Bauer's dime.  Here's my letter.

Eva

Message sent to the following recipients:
Representative Ellison
Senator Coleman
Senator Klobuchar
Mr. President
Message text follows:

Eva Young
1308 Boardwalk Av
Minneapolis, MN 55411-3364

March 13, 2007

[recipient address was inserted here]

Dear [recipient name was inserted here],

General Peter Pace is very fairly taking criticism for his anti-gay
statements to the Chicago Tribune.  Pace supports the Don't Ask, Don't
Tell policy, which was put into place by President Bill Clinton.

HR 1246, the Military Readyness Enhancement Act would gays to serve
openly.  Don't Ask, Don't Tell has become a costly mistake.  The military
cannot afford to lose talented people just because they happen to be gay.

Senator John Warner - R, VA is correct when he said he strongly disagrees
with Gen. Peter Pace's views that homosexuality is "immoral."

"I respectfully, but strongly, disagree with the chairman's view that
homosexuality is immoral."

I support HR 1246 and urge you to cosponsor or sign the legislation.

Sincerely,

Eva Young
612-588-2044

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by: lloydletta @ Tue Mar 13, 2007 at 22:57:21 PM CDT

Pace, DADT, the Military and Religion

Given the recent reports of fundamentalist Christian videos being shot at the Pentagon, the Air Force Academy's need to investigate prostelytizing by fundamentalist Christian staff and cadets, these comments don't surprise me. They do give me concern for the future of a country with the first amendment we have while having an armed forces based on a certain wing of a certain religion's beliefs. I read a comparison between two statements about immorality (I cannot remember the source where I read it and apologize to the poster, but I can cite the speakers): General Peter Pace: "I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," Pace said. "I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way. As an individual, I would not want [acceptance of gay behavior] to be our policy...
National Stonewall Democrats' Jo Wyrick: "It is immoral to send our service members into battle without the proper equipment or plan. It is immoral to deny them proper medical care upon their return, and it is immoral to revoke support for our troops based on this misguided policy reaffirmed by General Pace and the White House."

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by: gleeindc @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 06:36:40 AM CDT