AfterElton: Crossing the Gay Color Lines

Typical

It's typical, psychologically, that an oppressed minority would have difficulty seeing the ways in which it can be oppressive.  I've seen way too much casual racism and anti-semitism in the gay community, and it still stings, though it doesn't shock me in the way it used to.  Unfortunately, shame, which can be a byproduct of oppression, often breeds contempt as a defense, and so members of a minority will target someone else to feel superior to as one strategy for dealing with their shame.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

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by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 13:33:36 PM CDT

Something I noticed...

...about that article: it's all about the boys. They don't interview a single lesbian, black or white, which is a pity, because I think there is a conversation to be had, but the dynamics aren't necessarily to be the same as with gay men.

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by: Darkrose @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 14:43:56 PM CDT

AfterElton

Heya,

That'd be because AfterElton.com is all about the boys. It is the brother site, if you like, to (the original) AfterEllen.com.

I do agree that it would be interesting to see the lesbian perspective on this, though...

Personally, I try to be as non-racist as I can be. In fact, I am a touch of a xenophile in that I just adore pretty much every race. We all have beauty in us.

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by: Zandilar @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 17:16:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Been reading up on this a bit...

I also think it would be interesting to see more articles where they touch on the sexism/misogyny sometimes apparent in the gay community as well.

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by: Xana @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 09:17:26 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

yes to you both

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Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 11:09:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

the racist gays

As a Filipino American 'mo in San Francisco who has experienced covert & overt racism in the Castro, Mr. Hillis' article resonated with me and other queer people of color in a seemingly-and-supposedly tolerant and diverse gay community.  When the interviewees described the implicit racism upon entering gay dance clubs (read: white, circuit, privileged), I too have been on the receiving end of such disparaging (sometimes hostile) stares.  And when comments like "Damn!  There are so many of them.  Did they arrive by the boatload?" are intentionally thrown within earshot--I have to wonder is this really the community I want to belong to?  What was once a promise of sanctuary, security, and protection from the homobigots is now plagued with the same degree of self-loathing, racism, and sexism (someone really has to explain to me why the Castro does not have a lesbian bar, and instead lesbians are cast out of the Castro and into the Mission and sometimes farther?)

In regards to the politics of desire (or racial preference on dating), I agree with Mr. Hillis' and the interviewees' criticism on the gay mainstream media (ads, movies, billboards) and  its valorization of anything white while rendering all the black and brown bodies invisible.  Is it any wonder why racial dating preferences is predicated on the racial hierarchy we have here in America?  And is it any wonder why queer people of color also gravitate towards white male/female bodies while emasculating or desexualizing their own brothers/sisters??

The only point of contention I have with Mr. Hillis' article is that once again race relations in America are addressed within the black-white paradigm.  Sensitivity towards other queer people of color and their experiences must be included  in these analyses.

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by: baklakas @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 14:46:14 PM CDT

Horrifying to hear

about those comments, in earshot or not.  Gay clubbing culture promotes a "hierarchy" -- often including race -- in both obvious and subtle ways.  Check out the quotes from the producer of Saturday gay nights at the Roxy bar in New York City, now closing:  http://www.nytimes.c....  He says, "We rated everybody on a scale from 1 to 4 based on how they looked."  Any chance the "look" included race?  People were treated differently depending on their number.  Appalling.  Of any community, we should know better.  A start is keep talking about this stuff.

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by: KC @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 17:11:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

sad to hear

I'm so sad to hear this.  I'm not a man and also not part of the club culture, so I had no idea how awful some of (I can only hope not most of) my white brothers are being.

I am really glad you brought up the black-white dichotomy as not telling the whole story of race problems in this country.  I try to think that if there can be any silver lining to the existence of anti-non-black racism in this country, it might be that it helps members of the old B/W dichotomy get beyond our entrenched ways.  But I have no clue how that could all play out.  Anyway, I'll stop rambling and just say thanks for bringing that up.

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Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 21:26:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

A small comment...

We were just discussing in one of my college courses about how the media and advertisers have created this image of gay men as white and rich. As you know from your experience, this marginalizes many people in the GLBT community.  One of my biggest complaints is with magazines and other publications that claim to be GLBT (like my Twin Cities local mag, Lavender) but are actually only "G" and should really specify themselves as being for white gay men. 

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by: Xana @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 09:24:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Does anyone know

of any stats regarding same-sex interracial dating/relationships versus opposite sex interracial dating/relationships? I think it'd be interesting to see how much of this sort of racism is a replication of what goes on in the straight community or how much of it is unique to us.

Either way, we need to own up.

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by: Alex Blaze @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 15:03:39 PM CDT

great question

I don't have the answer, but I wonder if it hasn't already been gleaned from the 2000 census?  There was a whole analysis  of same-sex households done from that data, and I'm sure the analysis has been done for hetero couples too.

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Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 21:29:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Crossing the gay color line

"White gay men see these incidents as examples of a homophobic African American culture. Straight African Americans see a cynical media exploiting caricatures of the angry, ignorant black man. Neither appraisal reveals the more complex truths about why GLBT people and African Americans still eye each other suspiciously across the cultural divide. -James Hillis"

James Hillis is a good writer but he lost me as a reader right away by starting the article with absolutes. Example: when he wrote "white gay men see?" or "straight African Americans see?" is to imply all feel / think that way - which is not true. Some may feel or think that way, but not all. It's an important distinction that should be made before we head into a conversation about race and sexuality.

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by: Pandora @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 15:06:14 PM CDT

Crossing the gay color line

I appreciate the men speaking candidly about so many issues that they have experienced but was a little surprised at their lack of qualifiers in their statements. I don't mean to harp but

example:

"Part of the issue, McCullom suggests, is the gay community's inability to even recognize racism when it exists. He gives the example of Shirley Q. Liquor, a white drag queen, who performs as a black female character in full makeup with a heavy - and questionable - accent. Black activists have been protesting the routine for years, arguing that it is an offensive caricature reminiscent of blackface minstrel shows. "And the white guys don't think there's a problem with it," McCullom said. "They just think it's hilarious."

All the white gays? ?umm?I don't think so.

Over generalization doesn't help a conversation.

Lord knows we've all made that mistake.

I would love for them to do a follow-up with these men after they have had a chance to read the feedback from readers. Then a third conversation perhaps with a woman (Pam?) or latino or asian etc.

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by: Pandora @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 15:21:08 PM CDT

Shirley Q. Liquor

I don't understand why the LGBT organizations are expected to denounce the Shirley Q. Liquor act. Don't get me wrong, the act is disgusting, but it's a race issue and not a LGBT issue. LGBT organizations are supposed to work for LGBT people and african-american organizations are supposed to work for african-american people. Gay people don't expect the NAACP to denounce anti-LGBT stereotypes on TV, it's just not what the NAACP is supposed to do.

Some people say that LGBT organizations should have struck the act down because it was played by a man impersonating a woman (as if that made him LGBT). Even if he was gay or trans, people shouldn't expect LGBT organizations to take responsibility for it. After all, nobody expects the NAACP to defend gays when a black person calls LGBT people "sinners."

I think it's great that GLAAD took the act on but I do not see it as something that GLAAD was compelled to do, just something that they did do. For a LGBT organization to not take action against something racist does not make the organization, or the people supporting it, racist in the same way that not having a LGBT organization denounce deforestation makes the organization and it's supporters anti-tree.

That said, I think that both LGBT and african-american organizations must take strong positions to support the civil rights of both LGBT people and african-american people.

<3 Sam

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by: Samie D @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 15:49:26 PM CDT

Agree

And Samie and I have disagreed on racial issue before, if I recall correctly, so it's nice to agree on something.  :)

peace.

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by: torrentprime @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 16:04:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Correct me if I'm wrong

But isn't Shirley Q. Liquor's alter ego a gay man? If that is correct then GLAAD and the rest of the GLBTQI community, regardless of color, should be up in arms about his racist minstrel show.

Haven't we all suffered enough discrimination for our variant sexuality to know better than to abet discrimination on the basis of race? Or perhaps it's just easier for gay white men to deflect their own internal self-hatred by having another group to hate.

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by: Alan down in Florida @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 22:46:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I respectfully disagree

GLAAD did have a responsibility to respond, because:
A) Knipp's act was attacking GLBT people - Black GLBT people.
B) Knipp's act depended, I think because of the drag, on the stereotype of gay men as racist, empty, and shallow.
C) GLAAD was in a better position to do something about this than many Black organizations considering what sort of respect Knipp and his audience apparently have for Black people.

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by: Alex Blaze @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 23:23:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That would change everything

That would change everything, I wasn't aware of any of that. Of course, I haven't really been a fan of the act either and hence haven't watched more than a few minutes of it that were posted on PHB...

<3 Sam

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by: Samie D @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 00:25:56 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Comments

The article is written a bit strongly from a leftist point of view, in that anything racial is automatically assumed, without discussion, to be racist.  The debate raged on this site for quite a long time over whether the Shirley Q thing even was racist, yet Rod simply states as fact that Shirley Q is racist, and therefore uses the fact that (some) gays enjoy the show to bolster his "gays can be racist" argument.  I don't accept as settled that the Shirley act was racist, and (again) raise the issue of Dave Chapelle, Carlos Mencia, etc.: lots of comedians traffic in racial stereotypes (anyone ever see Lisa Lampanelli?) without ever getting accused of trading in racism.  Hmm--what makes Shirley's actor racist?  Oh that's right--he's white.
Of course racism exists in the gay community: it might be a factor of, oh, I don't know, gays being human, and racism existing in every single society and collection of humans on earth? Gays can be racist, Christians can be racist, blacks can be racist, Canadians can be racist.  Draw the lines however you want: racism exists (and it should go without saying that it needs to be combated), and "discovering" that it exists in a previously- and currently-oppressed community is hardly news. An article that seems heavily to surface (and justify) that blacks aren't comfortable with gays' struggle for equality doesn't seem to start from a racially-neutral POV in the first place.

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by: torrentprime @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 16:01:14 PM CDT

Racism, like Homophobia, is in the eye/ear of the beholder

Haven't the fusses lately about the N-word (Michael Richards), the other F-word (Isaiah Washington) and the whole Ann Coulter mess taught us at least this much.

White folks don't get to decide what is racially offensive. Straight people don't get to decide what is homophobic. Each group sets it's own standards and it is incumbent on the remainder of society to accept those limits.

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by: Alan down in Florida @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 22:51:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Crossing the gay color line

"Polk believes the correlations that gay people often draw to civil rights ends up alienating the black community. The civil-rights struggle "is still a very painful scar for the black community," Polk said. "So when the gay community continues to reference that, it just brings up all these painful issues and memories. And it doesn't necessarily help to encourage the black community to have these conversations."

I don't think white gay people are going out of their way to appropriate the "Black experience" instead it is a way for them to relate their struggle to the society at large that discriminates against them. It might not be the best analogy use but there probably isn't anything else to comparable for them to use.

Many in the Civil Rights movement were straight white men and women as well as black and white gays/lesbians. It is for many people - a shared experience.

If all we talk about is how `our group' suffered more than `your group' we'll never get anywhere.

In the early 1960's, some in the black community (when describing the evil legacy of slavery) used the phrase "genocide" - it has been argued that this was appropriated from the Jewish groups who used that term to describe the horrors of WW2. My point - we all look for inspiration - from whomever came before us. Ghandi was influential to MLK and the movement as a whole etc.

If you look at the two movements (gay and black civil rights) side by side you will see that the two overlap and have grown up together. There are problems to be sure, but more dialogue is needed to build bridges. It'll take effort from all sides to leave our prejudices behind and actually communicate with one another.

I am hopeful for all of us,in this crazy rainbow tribe of ours.

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by: Pandora @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 16:14:36 PM CDT

Yes

Pandora, I agree with the sentiments of your post, specially about building bridges, and by extension, building coalition and partnerships with other minority groups. 
On another point, I am somewhat disturbed, however, by the other commenters' lack of understanding why the gay community should not denounce that racist act called Shirley Q.  Seeing that the whole Hillis' piece is on the black gay experience, why shouldn't the LGBT community address race relation issues?  Should the people of color in the gay community call upon their ethnic communities to denounce racism in the gay community?  Why shouldn't there be responsibility on the gay community to decry any forms of discrimination, especially the ones deemed racist by members of their own community???  I thought the whole idea of rainbow coalition is to demonstrate our willingness as a community to partner up with other oppressed communities and bring about equality for all?  I guess that too is too much of a left-wing, radical ideologue--kinda like how the Civil Rights Movement, the Feminist movement, and the Mattachine Society were once considered. 

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by: baklakas @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 16:34:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're conflating issues a bit

I am somewhat disturbed, however, by the other commenters' lack of understanding why the gay community should not denounce that racist act called Shirley Q.

In the first place, it's not the gay community's responsibility to be the politically-correct police for racial humor. A community defined by one characteristic (orientation) need not focus its efforts on issues defined by another characteristic (race) entirely.  It's not to say that such alignment never happens or shouldn't happen, but it's not a given. In the second place, not everyone agrees that the show was racist, which naturally diminishes the ardor to make such a move by the community at large.

Why shouldn't there be responsibility on the gay community to decry any forms of discrimination, especially the ones deemed racist by members of their own community???
And what if some members disagree? But more importantly, why would you focus on the gay community to receive this message? What makes it a gay issue at all?! If the issue at hand, a purportedly racist show, motivates you to speak out against racism, why is your first reaction to go yell at the gays for being insensitive?  Why not white people, or rich people, or Hispanic people, or anyone else who went to the show?  Just because it's a guy who dresses up like a woman doesn't make it a gay issue.  Even if the actor is/was gay doesn't make it a gay issue, as one man is not a speaker for or responsible for everyone with the same orientation.  Basically, the it's like asking why Greenpeace didn't issue a press release about it.

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by: torrentprime @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 18:01:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

O/T--Redirect and Refocus Your Argument

I find it interesting that out of Hillis' article you only found one point worth discussing: The Shirley Q. Liquor act.  You seem to have missed the whole point of the article which is racism exist in the gay community and you and I need to do something about it.  Oh wait!  You did address it, but in a very blase, nonchalant, apathetic way and to paraphrase you: "So?  Racism exists, and then what?  Everyone's racist.  Tell me something I don't know.  And this is news, how?"  This kind of insensitivity towards race relations is counterproductive to the dialog required to address them.  And finally, you missed the entire point of my last post completely--Isn't it to yours and my benefit to address all systems of oppression (racism, sexism, classism), and so long as they exist homophobia reigns?  After all, they feed on each other.  Again, your obsession on this Shirley Q. issue is missing the entire point of Hillis' article.  Racism does exist.  What are you doing about it?  Or should we do something about it in the gay community?  Is race an LGBT issue at all?  These are the questions that the Hillis' article surfaced. And to nitpick on a one issue is, well, I don't know, counterproductive.  Please focus it back to the actual issues generated by the article. 

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."--Martin Luther King, another left-leaning-radical-some-would-say-commie ideologue. 

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by: baklakas @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 18:30:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

crossing the gay color line

"Gay people don't expect the NAACP to denounce anti-LGBT stereotypes on TV, it's just not what the NAACP is supposed to do.-Samie"

You know,call me crazy but, I think that's all about to change. I think more and more the NAACP and GLAAD etc. will have to comment on these issues not normally associated with them.

Actually, when you think about it.....

Why don't they both speak out?

Hmmm...does anyone know the historical reasoning of why for example GLAAD or HRC doesn't usually speak out on race issues? Or likewise NAACP doesn't speak out on lgbt issues?

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by: Pandora @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 16:59:19 PM CDT

While NAACP and GLAAD have their

central missions, statements of cross-support are great.  It strengthens both causes, and creates ties that can do nothing but good.

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by: KC @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 17:20:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Agree

Statements of support are great.  But actually agitating on issues not related to the organization's core mission runs the risk of diluting its impact.

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by: torrentprime @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 18:02:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

it's related

I think what some of the other people are trying to say, perhaps not well enough for you to understand, is that some of us do perceive the Shirley Q incident to be related to LGBT issues because it involves people in the LGBT community who happen to be black. You treat race as if it's mutually exclusive from being LGBT when you obviously know it's not, based on some of the other comments you've made. Personally, I don't care whether or not GLAAD or any other LGBT community addressed or addresses it, so that's not my point. But I think what some of us are thinking is that LGBT orgs maybe should not engage in pointing out and protesting incidents and statements that offend members of the LGBT community when those things happen at the hands of people outside the LGBT community *only*. And I do think there's some value in their speaking up and saying, "Hey, some of our community members are perpetrating this racist image and message using a *trans character* (or whatever term you prefer) that is offensive to other members of our community." Because, honestly, straight black people don't even know about it (I didn't even know about it), let alone care--it bothers gay blacks, and it's being done by gay whites. There's an identity intersection here, and it is still something that reflects on and affects the LGBT community in some sense. If you don't agree, that's fine...but commenting that it's not related several times is not necessarily going to change minds.

-Nunya http://queerthinker.blogspot.com

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by: nunya @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 18:54:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Correct me if I'm wrong again

but didn't Huey Newton and the Black Panthers support gay rights even though many of its members were in fact homophobic?  They understood that while any group is oppressed all groups are oppressed.

Wake Up America - you are now a country of minorities. The average American household is no longer white, with a mother and father and 1.7 children. Unfortunately the only group that retains its majority status is Christians.

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by: Alan down in Florida @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 22:56:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That reminds me of something

Audrey Lorde said about how her identities can't be divided.  Does anyone know how exactly she put it?

The function of oppression is the same no matter what group it gets leveled against.  Why should only one aspect of a person's identity get all the focus when clearly they don't operate or live as only on aspect of their selves?

Can I be only gay and no other part of me in any situation?

If you're not angry, you're probably not paying attention.

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by: boytokyo @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 05:58:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Absolutely

We ought to learn to discriminate against people more holistically and stop focusing on one aspect of their lives. ;-)

<3 Sam

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by: Samie D @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 14:09:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you mean

"I shouldn't hate you just because you're (insert this/that/&other) and (this/that/&other).  I should hate you for all those reasons at the same time."?

That does seem much more just, doesn't it?
lol

If you're not angry, you're probably not paying attention.

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by: boytokyo @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 15:33:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It's sarcasm

It's sarcasm, hence the winky face.

<3 Sam

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by: Samie D @ Fri Mar 16, 2007 at 02:08:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fine essay

I don't know how true the above described rich/pretty white exclusivity is in the Midwest bar scene, as I don't frequent the bars, but I do know that there have been complaints in the past, and that there are black-predominant bars clearly serving a need out there for comfortable space.

I think that everyone, white and black, should read Keith Boykins' first book, One more river to cross. Short, well written, deals with myths held by both sides, critiques the way LGBT organizations function vis-a-vis race.

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by: NancyP @ Wed Mar 14, 2007 at 18:18:39 PM CDT

Audre Lorde Quote

'There is no such thing as a single-issue struggle because we do not live single-issue lives.'

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by: MonicaR @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 12:00:19 PM CDT

ah!

I was thinking of something else, but that works.

Thanks!

If you're not angry, you're probably not paying attention.

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by: boytokyo @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 at 15:34:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]