Dungy reveals anti-gay views during speech at fundraiser for Indiana Family Institute

This comes as no surprise at all. . .

but I do wonder how the coach feels about being associated with people who engage in deliberate deception? What side does he fall on when it comes to the art of lying?

This seemed so obvious to me all along, especially when the IFI tried to deny they had any idea what Dungy's position was on matters concerning the evil homosexuals - why, they were only inviting him because of his accomplishments as a coach and his represesntation of the "family." I knew right then it meant he intended to shill for their warped sense of reality and chalk it up to his commitment to superstition.

But this repeated crap that someone opposing same-sex marriage is on the "Lord's side" is just enough to make me puke. The utter arrogance of people who select a particular "religious" belief, a civil right in this nation which seems to be only reserved for those who use it to practice bigotry and visit hardship upon the lives of others isn't about any commitment to morality. It's about the arrogance of believing that the direction his peepee points justifies special rights for himself - and then pretending his peepee made that choice because of his commitment to the Lord.

That doesn't indicate any commitment to God at all. Where is Dungy's story of how tortured he was about his sexual orientation until he picked up the Bible and searched through Leviticus, avoiding the parts about shellfish cuz he might enjoy Red Lobster, only to obsess on the verse that someone told him meant the gays weren't godly? Curiously, we only get such stories from the ex-gays-for-pay, and their commitment to the Bible is so limited that they can't even tell THEIR stories about the industry which puts bread and fishes on their dinner table without lying about the numbers.

What is most repulsive to me is the arrogance of those who believe they have an inherent right, based on selected, chosen reading of a holy book, to demand the state force others to live by their choices. Is the reason the IFI opposes allowing a same-sex couple to rest next to each other in their graves based on Leviticus? Are there verses in which the Lord has declared "no same-sex couple may make a decision about hospital care because only heterosexuals are allowed to love?" Has the Lord specifically dictated that heterosupremacists alone are His servants and therefore entitled to better pension and tax benefits?

If Dungy is on the Lord's side, where is his opposition to "marriage" which is not endorsed by the Church? And make no mistake about this - the IFI does not believe in religious freedom - it believes in religious dominionism with their organization dictating the standards.

People are certainly correct in wondering how far that might extend into his position and how that might affect the right of a talented gay football player to be treated appropriately on the football team. After all, it isn't Dungy whose career aspirations are limited because of his religious beliefs - the laws and the cabal of rightwing religious organizations would never allow that - it is his right to DISCRIMINATE which they fight for in the courts and the legislatures every day. By merely stating they are on the "Lord's side," christianists maintain they have a right to "freedom of association" which means they can create the "belief" that they somehow become unclean or violate the Lord if they are forced to work next to someone who is gay. We had a court case at my university concerning this same matter - a christianist student law group sued to be allowed to refuse membership to gay students. And they won.

The Colts tried to make a big deal out of saying that Dungy's "personal" beliefs have nothing to do with team policy. But we've heard that crap before. After all, it ain't the gays who run around screaming that they cannot and will not work with the fundamentalists - the gays are used to working with people who have always stuck their noses into the business of others. No - it is the fundies who attempt to block non-discrimination laws in employment because they should have the "right" to worship their God by not being nice and polite to a gay person working with them. . .and to be able to demand they NOT be hired because it violates their "deeply-held, personal beliefs."

Do these people ever screen applicants on whether they masturbated years before marriage, or engaged in any sexual activity before marriage? Well, generally not - they aren't about to limit the rights of people who engaged in the same behavior they've done themselves. So the Lord kinda disappears from their "deeply-held personal beliefs" in matters which may include their own personal history. But the gay is different. . .and the indignity and obsession from these groups is so pronounced, so vicious, so manipulative and so intentionally deceptive that their "faith" cannot be embrace in their own lives unless the laws and the policies of all government punishes those who are not members of their organizations.

And in that respect, Dungy's feet need to be held to the fire. This ain't about, as the Right will contend immediately, his right to "believe what he wants." If that was the case, they would have no complaint about other people announcing that their own "personal religious beliefs" prevent them from associating with members of the IFI. And that isn't acceptable under the law because only con-servative "Christians" are entitled to demand the rights of others be limited because the state must sanction THEIR beliefs. Everyone else is subordinate.

It doesn't matter if Dungy doesn't extend his remarks into other civil rights for gay Americans. His willingness to use his faith to arrogantly inject his "personal opinion" into policies which define the rights of any individual citizen to have control over the most basic instinctive and emotional facet of their own lives is testimony enough to the bigotry. No one who believes that their interpretation of WHO you can love and share your life with trumps your own right to human dignity in that association is going to seriously believe you have the right to other things in society. I don't give a damn what excuse they use or how much they underplay it - when they claim their right to demand public policy reflect their right to police the lives of others (and no one can police or question theirs)- they aren't practicing any commitment to the Lord. They are merely making excuses to assert their supremacy.

Now I know Dungy is celebrated for his coaching style, and for his own personal example of how he follows and believes in his own faith. That means the man is capable of attempting to live his beliefs in his own life. That doesn't mean he should have the right to demand others be forced to present the image of living his beliefs in their own life, no matter how grievous or how much injury that causes in their life. When that happens, it is Dungy and the IFI who claim that they and the "Lord" are one and the same, and no injustice is ever addressed in society unless they have decided.

As such, Dungy doesn't represent any sort of "family" role model at all, much less an official spokesmodel for God. Instead, he only becomes a spokesmodel for his own arrogant decisions about how to live his own life - and worse - basing those decisions on the easiest and most natural reactions his own emotional structure and physical responses make. And that doesn't take much of an act of "faith." Just like it doesn't take much faith to demand others be banned from living their lives according to their religious beliefs in order for him to feel more secure in his own.

And that, to me, ain't about no belief in the "Lord" - that's about religious tyranny.

Dungy is well-known for the many charitable functions he supports. I recommend that Indiana gay and AIDS organizations contact him and ask him to offer his support for programs helping the gay elderly, those sick from AIDS, and those struggling to secure decent medical treatment. Let's see how deeply his commitment to the "Lord" necessitates his turning of the cheek at the suffering of others.

---

by: kevinbgoode @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 07:57:23 AM CDT

And a very telling quote from 247gay.com

"The Colts have tried to distance themselves from any controversy making a statement earlier this month that they did not advocate any political or religious view in either direction. They did however make it known that coach Dungy was allowed to speak to any group he wished. Also in an even more controversial move the sports organization donated sports paraphernalia that was auctioned off and raised over 20,000 dollars for the Institute."

Apparently these people believe we are stupid. Evidently Dungy did when he said his remarks aren't gay bashing or "anti-anything." Which is, of course, why the team donated paraphernalia to the Indiana Family Institute to help raise money for their "godly" legislative agenda.

---

by: kevinbgoode @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 08:16:14 AM CDT

That's awful

$20000 more to be spent on the destruction of committed same-sex relationships and on attacking the quality of life of LGBT people.

The Colts have a toll free number: 800 805 2658.  And a web contact form: Email the Colts

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 12:30:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pats v Colts

Being a Patriots fan now I have even more reasons to hate the Colts. As if I needed another.

Lee G.

---

by: Captain Quahog @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 08:19:10 AM CDT

Hehe Go Pats

:)

Try not. Do or do not. There is no try.

---

by: celestialaly12 @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 19:51:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dungheap

I'm impressed!

Dungheap not only coaches, but he reads Biblical Hebrew and Greek and knows exactly what the Lord says.

Wait?  He doesn't read those languages?

Oh, then he must be talking directly to the Lord, in which case what the hell is he doing coaching?  He should be spreading The Word.

Hold on, you say he's never claimed to speak with God?

Hmmm.

Perhaps he's "embracing" this issue because he needs to prove something to the world or to himself.

In which case he should be speaking to a shrink and leave public speaking alone.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 08:34:41 AM CDT

Publically making fun of people's names

is, I think very unwise.  Most of us don't choose our names.  When Jerry Falwell called Ellen DeGeneres "Ellen DeGenerate," it made Falwell look bad.  And Ellen herself said it reminded her of being called that in elementary school.

We have plenty of powerful arguments to make based on substance.  I think "Dungheap" dilutes our moral force.

---

by: KC @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 09:01:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Names

Since I am only one poster, and the name hasn't been adopted by every single GLBT person in the US objecting to his stance, I think our movement's moral force is in good order.  Referring to him as Coach Dungy or Mr. Dungy would certainly have been more polite, but I'm not prepared to go off now to stand in the corner.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 11:36:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is a blog is a public one, though

Pam often quotes offensive things from "Freeperland" to illustrate how nasty, uncivil, and unkind they are.  I am concerned that someone could easily quote you as part of making a similar case that "gay people are horrible people."  (Like Jerry Falwell is horrible.)  I think it's a risk worth considering.  You are also modeling a term and practice that others could pick up.  I like your contributions, Lev, and the function of my comment is not so much to castigate as it is to raise what I think is a legitimate issue of strategy.  I think "doing onto others..." and empathy matters.  I think it's very important to model how we want to be treated.  Consider:  If Tony Dungy were more empathic and sensitive to others, he wouldn't be a proponent of the Indiana Family Association.

Just as Ann Coulter's name-calling and unempathic demeanor has hurt the right wing cause, I am troubled when I see similar behavior in progressive people because this time it hurts progressive causes.  We are supposed to be more about empathy.

---

by: KC @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 11:56:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kumbaya, kumbaya

I think it's very important to model how we want to be treated.

I figure I do my part by not campaigning to repeal the equal protection clause as it applies to superstitious bible-thumping authoritarians.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 12:24:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dungy

Since his comments are noisome, homophobic and deserve to be thrown onto the rhetorical trashpile, dungheap doesn't seem a stretch to me.

I did not insult him personally or use any Ann Coulter-like epithet to characterize him.  I did not advocate any action against him.

Honestly, if the worst someone on the right can find on this site is an aural pun of Dungy/Dungheap, they're not going to get much mileage out of that. 

I think it's mild and even faintly humorous, it's not hate speech or anything reprehensible.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 20:49:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I would have preferred "Coach Dingy," myself...

...since it only requires a change of one vowel in the name.

I oftentimes have referred to Rush as "Rush Lamebrain" (and that was before his pill-popping became public knowledge) and will continue to do so, because it reflects what I consider his bloviation represents: a lame brain.  I haven't picked up on the "Rush Limpdick" mantra that others have used.

They are puns.  Puns are oftentimes cruel, but they are very useful in indicating that the punner is dismissing the person--and the bloviations of the person--out of hand.  I don't have any problem with it.

---

by: raj @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 03:37:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pun on, Garth!

Raj, your pun is more elegant than mine  At the time, I was disgusted by Dungy, hence the cruder metaphor.

Sarcasm is an effective rhetorical tool, as you point out, and yes, it can be cruel, but if we're to start policing our language here, what's the standard?  Perhaps Pam can post a 1-10 scale as we start looking over our shoulders?  I, for one, have kept my language civil (dung heap, after all, is not remotely a swear word), but I'm not going to start censoring myself just in case someone from the right wing might possibly pop by and quote me.  That would be paralyzing.  I haven't gotten to publish 18 books in many genres and 100 of articles and reviews because I'm constantly wondering what the right wing might say about my opinions.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:56:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What's the standard?

The standard is when the proprietors tell us to stop doing what we're doing.  That is what the standard is.  They own the web site.  They set the standard.

Regarding

I, for one, have kept my language civil (dung heap, after all, is not remotely a swear word), but I'm not going to start censoring myself just in case someone from the right wing might possibly pop by and quote me.

as I've written elsewhere just this morning, I cut my Web presence eyeteeth posting on conservative and wingnut web sites.  It was an interesting experience.  But, as a result, I developed a relatively thick skin and I don't particularly care what the wingnuts might say about me.

Some, given my "raj" handle, have even had the temerity to tell me to go back to India.  After I got off the floor after having rolled there laughing ("raj" are my initials) I noted their obvious racism.  I even got one Freeper to admit that he would never say anything in public--he was an anti-gay poster there--that he would post in FreeRepublic.com.  These wingnuts are nothing but wimps.

---

by: raj @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 06:47:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

One syllable change

PS:

Raj, Lamebrain is like Dungheap.

I prefer Rush Limbo because it's far more evocative and also follows your one syllable rule.  :-)

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:58:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No, you apparently misunderstand...

..."Lamebrain" has the same number of syllables as "Limbaugh" and, on pronunciation sounds not all that much dissimilar, and so that pun is totally appropriate.  As well as being totally descriptive.

---

by: raj @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 06:35:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You misread my post

I'm an author with a good ear, have taught poetry and other forms of creative writing and Lamebrain and Limbaugh aren't very close at all.  Syllables match, yes, and there's some assonance, but that's it.

All I meant was that Limbo and Limbaugh are in fact quite close.

But anyway, I never said your pun was inappropriate.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 16:35:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've never understood

the homophobia with football considering the homo-erotica of the sport to begin with.  perhaps that is the answer, leading to the question of it's popularity then.

people are just naturally stupid I suspect.

---

by: HDBiker @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 08:42:36 AM CDT

psh. last i checked

the lord didn't side with people who receive massive salaries and possess copious amounts of wealth. 

The gays stole my lunch money

---

by: matt in mpls @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 09:01:31 AM CDT

I guess when

you are "on the Lord's side", the rules of engagement are homphobia and hate speech. Gay fans ought to boycott the Colts over these hteful comments made by Dungy. BTW what makes him a spokesman on morality ( or the fundies so called version of it) just because he happened to coach a team to the Superbowl?

---

by: stacheman @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 09:14:21 AM CDT

Contact information for the Colts

Contact the Colts

ADDRESS
Indianapolis Colts
7001 West 56th Street
Indianapolis, IN 46254

GENERAL PHONE AND FAX NUMBERS
Phone: (800) 805-2658
(317) 297-2658

---

by: kevinbgoode @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 09:58:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ask for community relations

and then ask them what "charitable" ventures the Indiana Family Institute engages in which met their criteria for the donation of paraphernalia as a fundraiser. . .and what assurance do they have that the money raised doesn't go to their legislative agenda?

---

by: kevinbgoode @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 09:59:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good for you Kevin

Lets give them a taste of their own medicine and see how they like it when we complain loudly and threaten to pull our support of their product because they support and anti-gay "agenda".

---

by: stacheman @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 10:19:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Damn Damn Damn!

And I was so proud that my cousin (#94 Rob Morris) plays for the Colts.  Now I'm not so sure.  Though I shouldn't be surprised; Rob (and his dad) are very likely to be IFI supporters as well.

"If people let government decide which foods they eat and medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson

---

by: RadicalRuss @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 10:28:58 AM CDT

Tony's (Anthony's) Address

Are we allowed to post his home address and phone number on here?  It can be found by doing a search on Zabasearch.com.

---

by: SteveinNJ @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 10:47:52 AM CDT

NO.

We don't post personal information here, nor does our community policy endorse the use of contacting people at their home. Any user that posts the information will be banned from this forum.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 11:00:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

A commercial Dungy runs on

here in Nashville has something to do with big time sports personalities being great dads.  It's called something like Prime Time Dads, All Pro Dads, or something like that.  Usually, the "dad" is also an African-American man and they do these cutsey little ads with their wife and adorable kids playing, laughing, and doing fun stuff together.

Not that there is anything wrong with the ads, per se.  It's just a subtle message that good men and good dads should look and act a certain way.

---

by: callie @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 10:52:30 AM CDT

Yeah

the nazis had the same idea and look at what happened.

---

by: stacheman @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 11:01:35 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're kidding

Hint: if your child commits suicide in his early twenties you may not actually be an All Pro Dad.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 12:38:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Former Commissioner Paul Tagliabue

The last NFL Commissioner, Paul Tagliabue, who was replaced in 2006, was a very vocal gay rights advocate.  His son is gay.  See the link below for more information:

http://www.outsports...

---

by: SteveinNJ @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 11:04:51 AM CDT

What "guts"?

I just read this on Debbie Schlussel's (aka Ann Kosher) blog.  She said that Dungy has "guts" because he opposed to same-sex marriage.  That's bullshit.  It's like saying that Michael Richards has "guts" for what he said at the Laugh Factory after being heckled.

Here's the story:

Guts: Superbowl Champ Coach Opposes Gay Marriage

By Debbie Schlussel

I admire Superbowl champion coach Tony Dungy, head coach of the Indianapolis Colts. A G-d-fearing man with Main Street America values, he downplayed the race issue in this year's Superbowl and never swayed from his Christian values in his quest to win the Big Game. That's something I believe helped get him there.

Now, Dungy has done something with a lot more guts. He's come out in favor of a ban on gay marriage. Dungy knows that this controversial stand will lose him a lot of money.

Gay rights groups will pounce on current and potential sponsors and endorsement deals, and Dungy will ultimately lose significant funds for taking this stand. For that reason, most athletes would run like Roger Bannister away from taking such a strong political stand. And that's why it's so gutsy that Dungy too a different path.

The National Football League is running fast and furious away from Dungy and his comments. And I can't blame them. If I were running a pro sports league, I'd stay far away from politics, especially political issues. Nobody wants a mix of Rosie O'Donnell and Sean Penn in their Sunday afternoon football.

That's why I have my reservations on Dungy's pronouncement. I oppose gay marriage. Marriage is between one adult man and one adult woman only. But I wouldn't like it if Dungy took the opposite stand and came out in favor of gay marriage. And I do believe that athletes and sports figures should stay out of politics, just as I feel showbiz types should and have repeatedly said so.

Still, I give kudos to Dungy for taking a stand that he knows will lose him a lot, but will allow him to publicly stand on principle.

More from USA Today:

"Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungy said he knows some people would rather he steered clear of Indiana's gay marriage debate, but he clearly staked out his position nonetheless. The Super Bowl-winning coach "embraced" the stance of an Indiana organization supporting an amendment to the state constitution that would ban gay marriages, and he added Tuesday night at a gathering of the Indiana Family Institute that he's "on the Lord's side."
"We're not trying to downgrade anyone else," said Dungy, coach of the Super Bowl champion Indianapolis Colts. "But we're trying to promote the family - family values the Lord's way," Dungy said. "IFI is saying what the Lord says. You can take that and make your decision on which way you want to be."

Asked about Dungy's comments, the NFL provided the following response through spokesman Greg Aiello:

"Coach Dungy is speaking for himself and expressing his views, which he is fully entitled to do. No doubt there are people in our league that have a different view. We respect the right of employees to have and express their views and don't regulate the political or religious views of team or league employees."

Contrast the diplomatic way the NFL distanced itself from Dungy with the obnoxious cut-and-run way the League and ESPN treated Rush Limbaugh on a far less controversial issue.

---

by: Blood From Machines @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 11:11:39 AM CDT

WHAT!?!

You mean Debbie Schlussel actually took a few moments from her continuous screeching about "the religious islamic jihaaaaaaad" to point out her bigoted views on homosexuality?

---

by: stacheman @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 11:23:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Am I correct in inferring...

...Debbie Schlussel's (aka Ann Kosher)

that the person behind the Schlussel nome de plume is Jewish?  Or is Schlussel actually her real name, but that she also writes under the Kosher nome de plume?

The reason that I ask is that "Schlussel" is the German word for "key"  It would seem odd to me that a Jewess would adopt a German name.

---

by: raj @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 06:53:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Somewhat off-topic

As a Steelers fan I grew up with Tony Dungy on the Pittsburgh Steelers defense.  I always like him.  Now I'm just really dissapointed.  Drat.  I rooted for the Colts this season because he was the coach. 

Now the off-topic part - Women college basketball is down one homophobic coach.  Rene Portland, Penn States womans Basketball coach has just resigned...

http://www.post-gaze...

---

by: lisadawn82 @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 11:57:36 AM CDT

I guess that...

...the Indianapolis team (the Colts?  the Dolts?) aren't going to do any outreach to potential gay fans any time soon.

---

by: raj @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 15:02:39 PM CDT

Fucktards like Dungy

would have been the first to mock, scourge, crucify and kill Christ, and done so enthusiastically as well

Dungy's bs is used to gaybash, and that bashing leads to suicides of good people going through the most unGodly of undeserved anguish and despair, a subject that, as the survivor of a child who committed suicide, Dungy knows all about from the hardest of first-hand experience

Dungy definitely needs a BIG helping of Grow The Hell Up

---

by: KingCranky @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 16:30:15 PM CDT

Dungy reveals anti-gay views during speech at fundraiser for Indiana Family Institute

He must have also been on the Lord's side when he returned to his job like a couple of days after his own son's suicide.  Or maybe there's more to this story...rejection is a cruel thing even by a sanctimonious sour-faced bigot like Dungy.

---

by: nils @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 19:57:51 PM CDT

I've seen snippets of reference to this in a couple of places

and it makes me wonder more about that story. If that proves to be true, it needs to be known.

---

by: kevinbgoode @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 20:01:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You might think...

...that such an intimate tragedy--no matter what the ultimate source of the son's pain and anguish--would inspire some kind of introspection.  Apparently, it didn't.  Instead Tony got the idea that in spite of shocking evidence to the contrary, he's somehow an authority on "family values", and that he's specially called by the LORD to insert himself into other people's business.

Whether there is "more to the story" or not, it's a pretty good bet that having a rigid, homophobic, brain-dead cultist for a father wasn't helpful.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 20:53:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Attacking the man's statements and beliefs

is fair game.

The personal attacks (name calling and questioning the way he dealt with his grief) show about as much class as a Fox commentator.

For the record, I think his views are reprehensible. I also believe that he's entitled to them. I know most of all that the secret to changing people's minds about hate is not to hate them more. Personal attack bombs lobbed at him by those who disagree with him will only serve to entrench/justify his views, rather than have him question them.

[oh, and I guess I'm a terrible person too, because after losing the most important person in my life, I chose to return to work within a few days of the funeral in order to have something constructive to do with myself.]

---

by: ProseHack @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 23:15:51 PM CDT

I don't think he was associating with an organization which engages

in pleasant disagreement over an issue - WE are the issue to them. It isn't about a controversy over their religious beliefs, it's about legislation bigotry and as-permanent-as-possible discrimination into the constitution. No Dungy has no personal stake in the outcome, nor does the IFI, since nothing will affect any of their lives in the least.

And while he is entitled to his opinoin about the lives of people he doesn't know, those who are affected by that opinion are certainly entitled to speak out - and need to do so more often out of natural assertiveness rather than simply playing defense.

These are not people who play by any rules. And they certainly don't play by any "Christian" rules that I'm familiar with except manufacture the most vile, hateful, spiteful, evil language and imagery and project that as defining our lives.

Now of course Dungy didn't do that - he just decided to make a public endorsement at a fundraising dinner for an organization which regularly associates and engages in such manipulation. And his club, which claimed to not participate in any political activity or take sides on any social issues, apparently donated merchandise for that same fundraising effort. Those intentions are hardly benign nor honest, nor an indication of a willingness to engage in polite dialogue. They want ironclad laws and nothing else.

---

by: kevinbgoode @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 04:01:44 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

oh well in that case,

name calling and hate mongering on our part certainly makes everything all better.

My mistake.

---

by: ProseHack @ Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 01:39:56 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

His grief?

What about the grief and pain of his son, regardless of whatever it was all about?  Where the hell was Mr. Family Values when his family needed him?  The issue isn't what he did after his son was dead, but what he did before.

I'll say it again, having this kind of person--a rigid know-nothing bible-beater--as a father, could not have helped the situation.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 09:59:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sir:

You have no idea the dymanics of the situation, what Tony did or didn't do, and how suicide cannot be blamed on the survivors. And other than his stance on this one issue--an unfortunate blindspot that a great many otherwise Christian people have--you know nothing of Dungy's character. [I hate that ppl's blind hatred forces me to sound like I'm defending a homophobe, which I AM NOT.]

Most importantly, you obviously have no inkling of what it's like, and don't care to even try to grasp, how it is when someone you love, someone you're there for, someone you would die for...kills him or herself in spite of everything you've done in your power to help.

Homophobe he may be, but he's still a human being and deserves to be treated as such. You're so blinded by hate that you use an unspeakable tragedy as proof of a man's personal failings without any idea of what actually happened.

That being the case, I'd respectfully ask you to refrain from commenting.

Or, in the language of the thread: STFU. You're being the rigid know-nothing here. Were I to use your own tactics on you, I'd wish that you would go through the same so you'd understand; however, having gone through it myself, I wouldn't wish it upon anyone else.

---

by: ProseHack @ Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 01:53:36 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The fact is...

People who are as homophobic as Tony Dungy are unfit to be parents, period.  Gay-oriented children appear to be pretty randomly distributed in the population.  Therefore anyone who is not prepared to love and accept one shouldn't have children.  Even when the children of such people are "normal" in the sexual sense, they're still bad parents; the phobia reveals how they deal with any kind of non-conformity or difference.

If you disagree with that, well, we disagree.  I believe it strongly.  I'll leave it at that. 

Of course I don't know exactly what happened, but there's enough information in the public domain to wonder where this guy gets the nerve to present himself as a crusader for "family values"--which in practice means demonizing and trying to destroy the families of total strangers.  Surely you're not suggesting that the circumstances of his son's death show that he has some special expertise about healthy familial relationships?  Expertise which qualifies him to get in other people's business?

With his support of this christian hate group, Dungy is helping to ensure that other young people experience psyche-destroying anguish, and some of them may be driven to extreme measures, too.

It's obviously an emotional issue for you, but I'm not going to soften my opinion one bit.  It doesn't have anything to do with "hating" Tony Dungy or anyone else.  I certainly have contempt for him and am disgusted by him, but I have no wish for greater ill to come to him.  I only want him to stop spreading ill to others.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 10:53:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The one clarification I'd make

...is that no, I am not saying I think that having someone you love commit suicide gives you special expertise in family values; I do believe it gives you a certain sensitivity to others' pain. In this case, and in spite of my distaste of the man's values, I will not and cannot use his personal tragedy as some sort of evidence of a failing on his part, nor condone someone else doing so.

I'm saying that the fact that you've obviously never gone through that sort of thing makes you imminently unqualified to judge his situation, and to "get in his business" about it.

Yes, take him to task for his beliefs--I'm all for that, and I've written my letter to the organization expresssing that.

But--and using your own logic here--you cannot speak of what you do not know.

---

by: ProseHack @ Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 16:47:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I cannot believe the milage I get

from 2 of my favorite quotes thanks to people like Dungy:

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." --Susan B. Anthony

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Now I'll add a 3rd and 4th:

Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide

"You cannot prove the nonexistence of God; you just have to take it on faith." -Woody Allen

---

by: gleeindc @ Fri Mar 23, 2007 at 05:51:11 AM CDT

Wide Right

Personally, I think Tony missed wide right :)

I've gone round and round with this.  I've been a Colts fan since they moved to Indy.  I have a Colts license plate (or tag as they are called in some states) and tons of Colts shirts and sweatshirts (including my current favorite Super Bowl Champs gear).

One thing I have always liked about the Colts organization was their desire to do things "the right way".  Sure, they have their problems (Dom Rhodes arrested for drinking and driving is the latest that comes to mind), but it seems the exception rather than the rule.  Indy would never bring someone like Terrell Owens to play, regardless of their skilz.

I never really thought about the Christian connection with all of this because it was more of an action than a proclamation. That is the way it is supposed to be with Christians.  I have nothing against Christianity.  In fact, whether we buy into they whole thing or not, if we lived as Jesus said: "Love your neighbor as yourself", "Turn the other cheek", etc. the world would certainly be a different place to live in.

Having said all that, what is a Gay Colts fan to do?  My license plate renewal is at the end of April.  Do I keep that one or go with the "In God We Trust" plate?  LOL.

Seriously.  I've come to these conclusions.

1. Condemning the entire Colts organization for the words and actions of one of its members is no different than straight people thinking I spend every night in a wild sex orgy because I am gay (which, for the record I don't, nor would I want to).  Sure you can be judged by the company you keep, but that is only one small part of the equation.

2. I didn't like it when the Dixie Chicks said their mind and were promptly crucified for it.  I believed they had the right to speak their mind, therefore, I must allow Mr. Dungy the same right. I am certainly disappointed in the outcome, but it is still his right. 

3. I still love football.  I still live less than 30 miles from Indy.  The Colts will still be here long after Dungy is gone.  I suffered through the 3-13 seasons.  No way I'm not gonna revel in a Super Bowl championship.

So I'm keeping the gear and the license plate.  At the end of the day, regardless of amendments and statements of support, I will still be with my partner and we will still love each other.  They can't take that away from us, even if she is a Dolphins fan (now, if she were a Patriots fan...:)

---

by: whtz @ Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 07:00:14 AM CDT

'sall I'm sayin

2. I didn't like it when the Dixie Chicks said their mind and were promptly crucified for it.  I believed they had the right to speak their mind, therefore, I must allow Mr. Dungy the same right. I am certainly disappointed in the outcome, but it is still his right.

---

by: ProseHack @ Sat Mar 24, 2007 at 16:49:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]