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Beyond the pale: anti-gay, racist emails from Army recruiter

by: Pam Spaulding

Mon Mar 26, 2007 at 10:45:00 AM EDT


"GO BACK TO AFRICA AND DO YOUR GAY VOODOO LIMBO TANGO AND WANGO DANCE AND JUMP AROUND AND PRANCE AND RUN ALL OVER THE PLACE HALF NAKED THERE."
-- U.S. Army recruiter Sgt. Marcia Ramode, using her military email address to respond to Jersey City resident Corey Andrew, after Ramode learned Andrew was gay.
Is this the General Peter Pace policy at work?

Corey Andrew had his profile and resume posted at Careerbuilder.com, and it caught the eye of Army recruiter Marcia Ramode, who contacted him. He wasn't interested in a position in the military, particularly because of the ban on gays and lesbians in the military.

When Andrew informed Ramode that he is gay, and believed that the DADT policy was wrong, the two engaged in a three-day email exchange that included statements by Ramode, in her official capacity as a recruiter, that boggle the mind. (Jersey Journal):

After more prodding from Andrew on the Army's recruitment policy, the messages escalated into a bigoted tirade. For example, Ramode told Andrew that "being gay is disgusting and immoral."

...Steve Ralls, a director of communications for the Service Members Legal Defense Network, which helps victims of discrimination under the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy, says Ramode should be fired.

"The recruiter's remarks were outrageous and offensive in almost every way," Ralls said. "Anti-gay harassment throughout the military is well documented but this is particularly egregious because the recruiter's language is so homophobic and racist."

Andrew forwarded the emails to SLDN, and, well, it blows your mind to see the calibre of people now being allowed to recruit. This is completely unacceptable, and stains the reputation of those wearing the uniform. Can you believe this brazen filth was sent out under a military domain as official business communication --

and look at this:


And here's another, where Ramode tells Andrew to "migrate to another country" if he objects to paying taxes to support the military, which discriminates against gay and lesbian citizens, and "if you do not like me writing in caps then delete my email and do not respond I think it scared you to death."

According to a statement from public affairs officer, Sgt. Douglas Smith, the U.S. Army Recruiting Command's Staff Judge Advocate has bumped the case up to Ramode's commander for "review, investigation and appropriate action." Ramode, as you might imagine, didn't return calls from reporters.

Our tax dollars are paying for taxpaying citizens to be treated like this; gays and lesbians are fighting and dying for their country right now, while Ramode gets to sit at a desk and tap out homophobic, racist tirades to U.S. citizens while representing the Army. It's wrong on so many levels.

NOTE: The Jersey Journal article also noted that the name calling went in both directions once Ramode lobbed the first volley of outlandish statements.

The insults were not only flying one way, as Andrew criticized her vocabulary and poor spelling and, after finding out she was a Native American, wrote:

  "So take that to your next rain dance."

That was racist and out of bounds as well, but of course the whole nonsense wouldn't have occurred had Ramode simply said that the military's policy is that we don't recruit openly gay and lesbians citizens, and left it at that. She clearly felt the need to unleash the vitriol and it all escalated. She was the one representing the government -- and the taxpayers.

UPDATE: in the land of conservative make-believe, Riehl World View chooses to believe that the military recruiter was set up to engage in that flame war. Oh yes -- but, she made the first contact, and chose to continue communicating in that manner while representing the government. Get real. If Ramode felt so curiously compelled to respond as she did (or knew any better), she should have opened a Gmail, Yahoo or other non-work account, no? Please.

Related:
* The Frontlines:  A Recruiter's Offensive Emails (h/t SLDN's Steve Ralls, who shared the email exchanges [PDF])
* Jersey Journal: text of some of the email exchanges.

Also:
* Check out Saturday's live-blogging of SLDN's 15th Annual National Dinner, featuring audio, videos, speeches, interviews and photos. The Showtime series The L Word was honored for its Don't Ask, Don't Tell storyline.
Pam Spaulding :: Beyond the pale: anti-gay, racist emails from Army recruiter
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Beyond the pale: anti-gay, racist emails from Army recruiter | 64 comments
Absolutely she should be court martialed and dumped from the service
and while con-servatives will claim that she is merely exercising her right of free speech, she is, like General Pace, and employee of ALL the American people - not just the wingnuts. And when you are representing your employer in an official capacity, you don't get to just shoot off your mouth, even if you try to base it on "deeply-held, personal religious beliefs."

Since they don't quite seem to get a clue, perhaps its time someone said: "Look - I don't really give a damn about your "personal beliefs" about MY life. Your ass is my employee, and your job is to defend my country - not throw a tantrum about some sanitized notions you have about using your sex fantasies to elevate your sorry ass above the people who pay your fucking paycheck."

These are the same people who believe they have employment and serve our country as an entitlement - not out of patriotism or a desire to serve or defend others.

And uh...she's got some other things wrong here
My freedom of speech was not GIVEN to me by the U.S. military - it is a God-given right enshrined in my Constitution. I am not beholden to some pretend benevolent military dictatorship with delusions of grandeur.

[ Parent ]
Not from God
The U.S. Constitution does not cite God as the source of our rights. Rather, "We the People" are the source.
[ Parent ]
my favorite t-shirt
has "We The People" inscribed in the original script - in RAINBOW.
[ Parent ]
I want that shirt!!
Where'd you get it?
[ Parent ]
No no no
Freedom is not FREE, get it? If it weren't for George Bush and all of the other brave millionaires who have the courage to send poor kids off to destroy small countries with no body armor, we might be living in a dictatorship speaking Iraqi right now. Can you imagine if the government could tell the newspapers what the write and what to cover up for a few years? Or what if the FBI could monitor every move that you make? You might even see our rulers creating "constitution-free zones" and advocating torture.

You forget how good you have it living in a free country. If you were allowed to say things that made the government or the military look bad, free speech would be pretty meaningless wouldn't it? Just play by the rules and keep quiet and maybe Karl Rove will pay you to write a column someday.

What the hell was I doing in Oaxaca in 1992, on the eve of the Zapatista revolution?

[ Parent ]
Freedom isn't free
'it costs folks like you and me,
and if you don't chip in your buck o' five who will?'
(team america)
[ Parent ]
AMEN!
You took the words right out of my mouth.
[ Parent ]
Not just the gay community
while con-servatives will claim that she is merely exercising her right of free speech

They might, but they will be wrong.  When you represent the military you voluntarily limit your speech.  That's why, for example, you can't wear your uniform to any sort of political rally. 

Someone was remiss when they trained her to be a recruiter.

[ Parent ]
Darn auto fill
I just meant to put "Not..." in the subject line
[ Parent ]
The irony is
you know that if she gets fired over this, she will claim that she was the victim of anti-Christian discrimination.

What the hell was I doing in Oaxaca in 1992, on the eve of the Zapatista revolution?
but so was the erstwhile recruit.
and his assertions would have foundation, while hers wouldn;t.

xtian my ass

Lurleen on Twitter

[ Parent ]
Wow
A pure unadulterated macaca moment. 
re: I think she should be fired for
blogenfreude wrote:

"Am I the only one who thinks that people's inability to form a coherent sentence is a direct reflection of the jumble of nonsensical thoughts that parade through their brains on a constant basis?"

No, you're not!  I think Orwell said it best:

"[Language] becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts."
  George Orwell

[ Parent ]
I think she should be fired...
...just because of her horrid grammar.  I could barely get through the two email's worth of run-on sentences, spelling mistakes, improper word usage, and lack of linking verbs.

How the heck is she able to provide written correspondence to anyone of importance in the military?

Am I the only one who thinks that people's inability to form a coherent sentence is a direct reflection of the jumble of nonsensical thoughts that parade through their brains on a constant basis?

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Yes, the military has lowered their standards...
I hear they will even let convicts join the services now. Afterall, the military needs as many people as they can get to send off to Iraq. Who needs an arabic translator. She will do just fine.

So, being a taxpayer myself she is in essance, working for me. I myself don't tolerate ignorant people on my staff. Fire her!

Next.

[ Parent ]
Convicts and more!
I hear they even let former gay porn film actors, too!

What do you know!

[ Parent ]
knucklehead
pops, you hit the nail on the head ~ that soldier is illiterate.
[ Parent ]
Grammar
It's actually important.  Which is the sad part because she IS a recruiter.  I was in the AF for 4 years.  I looked at becoming a recruiter and it required a spotless record, excellent evals, and the rank of at least Staff Sergeant (E-5).

To become Staff Sergeant one must go through "Airmen Leadership School" (ALS); which is a stringent course covering everything from History to written and spoken communications.  Spelling counted, grammar counted, everything.  Why?  Because in order to turn in an Eval that would be approved it must be correct.  To turn in any sort of paperwork it must be correct.

Not knowing Army's req's for recruiters, I can't say as they ARE the same, but I can imagine that they should be about the same.

Unfortunately, she won't get fired. Repremanded? Absolutely. Re-assigned? More than likely.  Demoted? Probably.  General Pace's AIDE?  Maybe...

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]
Horrid Grammar
"I could barely get through the two email's worth"

Perhaps three e-mails' worth will do the trick.

I think they both behaved childishly and neither did their respective cases any good.  When the discourse descends into mud-slinging, as so often it does, any credibility worth standing on gets undermined.  That the recruiter behaved unprofessionally is indisputable, but a tit-for-tat is not the way to respond.

[ Parent ]
recruit
While there's absolutely no defense for the recruiter's actions, Mr. Andrew apparently wasn't all racism-free himself.  According to a partial article I read, he said something about the recruiter performing a rain dance.  Does anyone know the details?  To read the rest of the article would have required signing up for a news service.
sad
"While there's absolutely no defense for the recruiter's actions, Mr. Andrew apparently wasn't all racism-free himself."

And probably because of that the administration (and DADT), sadly, will be able to dodge this.

Still, the recruiter's rant was beyond racist; it was psychotic.  I wonder what sort of hetero whites she has been reponsible for arming and unleashing into the world in our name?

Kat

>^..^<

[ Parent ]
Mr. Andrew was not acting as a representative of my government
nor was Mr. Andrew soliciting a career from that government. However unfortunate his choice of words, he was acting as a private citizen being solicited by his government for employment - then denied that offer because of his sexual orientation.

The recruiter, on the other hand, as a representative of our government, may not have only violated military policy, but federal non-discrimination laws on the basis of race and religion.

She is, to take the con-servative viewpoint, actively supporting the type of beliefs which are used by the Taliban as they seek to destroy the United States. Hmm...a Republican would call that "treason."

[ Parent ]
2 wrongs don't make a right.....
I'd love to see both sides of the conversation.
the exchanges are there
The PDF is up.
[ Parent ]
Having been through and knowing the regulations concerning
the military recruitment process, I know that sending out that sort of tirade to anyone, anywhere from a ".mil" account should get any servicemember fired, especially a recruiter.  When you are corresponding within your professional military capacity, you represent your unit, your service and the military as a whole.  It wouldn't matter what the other guy said; a recruiter cannot go off on a tirade like those emails.  Period.

--Cpl B. Porter, USMC discharged under DADT 21Oct2006

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. --Thomas Jefferson

Thanks
Cpl Porter:  Thanks for your service to our country.  Its shameful that you were discharged under DADT.
[ Parent ]
Saying Thank You...
Cpl Porter:  I thank you as well for your service, and find it detestable when brave souls are treated so shamefully.

If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you. ~Oscar Wilde~
[ Parent ]
My thanks, too
Bravo, Cpl. Porter, and thank you for your service to this country.
[ Parent ]
Um that was ugly
Pam.  Thanks for posting the complete exchange.

Really ugly stuff no matter how you look at it.  DADT is an incredibly stupid policy that continues to hamper our country and our security on a dialy basis.

Sgt. Ramode's hateful speech is incredibly dissapointing and inappropriate.  I would hope that there is some type of sanction forthcoming.

Racist Homophobia on a Government Email System
I just sent the following email to Marsha and copied my two Senators Webb and Warner, both of whom are on the Senate Armed Services Committee.  The subject line of my email was "What a Disgrace"

Dear Marsha

Is this what "compassionate conservatism" looks like in the military these days?

http://www.pamshouse...

Like you I am employed by the US Government (I am home on sick leave today). If I EVER used rambling homophobic terroristic language like yours in an email to ANYONE, even to a sea slug, and sent it out on my government email address I'd be fired before tomorrow morning.

When can we expect your resignation? 

By the way, I'm sending your email showing your email address too my senators, Jim Webb and John Warner, both of whom sit on the Senate Armed Services Committee. I'm also copying this email to the White House.  I'll be anxious to see how they react to your prejudice using a government email account.

Getting "Fired"
Actually, I don't think rambling homophobic, etc...is actually against the UCMJ.  You cannot "fire" a military person, you have to either subject them to UCMJ or nonjudicial punishment.  What people seem to want is for the person to be run out with an Other Than Honorable discharge.

The mechanism to do that would most likely be administrative separation based on "Conduct Unbecoming", which can pretty much be translated as anything which makes the military look stupid.

I would think reassignment is probably the more probable outcome.  Recruiter positions used to be hard to fill (when I was in, about 15 years ago now).  Assuming that hasn't changed, because you have to be so extra careful as SOMEONE will get offended merely because you broke wind the wrong way, they probably do take people who are ill suited for the job just to have a warm body in there.  One thing to understand is that regardless of the legality of openly homosexual people serving in the military, her personal views which come out here are going to be there.

Don't think I'm making apologies for her though.  I'm not.  She makes a complete ass of herself in more than one way, the only response required or warranted was "I'm sorry you aren't considering joining the military, and I wish you luck in whatever you do." 

I totally agree with what you're saying about NJP, etc.
To think that her Captain is going to walk in tomorrow and send her packing just isn't possible.  Also, to ask for the resignation of someone in the military isn't very smart (I would have loved to be able to just resign and go home a few times a couple of years ago when I was in the sandbox).  There are ways of ensuring, at the least, that she never gets another rank, and at the worst, gets an other than honorable discharge.
Both of which are better treatment than I got.

--Cpl B. Porter, USMC discharged under DADT 21Oct2006

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself. --Thomas Jefferson

[ Parent ]
Nonjudicial punishment
I'm betting on an Article 15, with a possible reduction in rank.  And I agree - reassignment is logical.  Wonder what is her primary MOS? 
[ Parent ]
'Rain Dance'
"Rain dance" may not have been entirely racist, if one supposes that the earlier claim to native-American heritage is an absurd attempt to claim status. If you claim to be a native-American, offering no proof, and I respond to you with a taunt mentioning a "rain dance" is that still inherently racist? "Rain dance" may be a stereotype, but it's at least a factually based stereotype.
Its racist
Let's not be hypocrits here, the "rain dance" comment was racist.  The recruiter may have started it, and there's no denying that he was provoked by Ramode's vile bigotry, but Andrew chose to sink to her level, and that's not cool.

It doesn't make his complaint against Ramode any less legitimate, or make her any less of a racist, homophobic twit.  But let's not fall into the Republican "its ok if you're [insert your fave "one of us" labels here]" crap.

[ Parent ]
"factually based" or not, it's still a stereotype...
and, yes, inherently racist because it assumes all Native Americans perform rain dances. Pretty much the same as the recruiter's equally absurd suggestion that all Africans dance around half naked (some do, so it too is a "factually based" stereotype, which is nonetheless inaccurate and stupid to apply to an entire population).
[ Parent ]
Ramode Gave Me a Way Cool Idea
A new, more efficient slur: "It's Raining Men Dance" --
it zaps two groups at the same time.


=>The truth usually isn't pretty. Don't blame me for telling it.<=
OK...as long as...
As long as Kathleen Turner doesn't perform it in character as 'Chandler's Dad'.

Kat

>^..^<

[ Parent ]
Rightwing Crybabies
Well it didnt take long for the Wingnuts to turn this around into another case of them getting set up by the meanies on the left. Check out this little gem of a posting on http://www.riehlworl...

Corey Andrews is a traitor to our nation. I only hope that President Bush has the courage to see him arrested, tried, and executed by next week.
Posted by dogmakidnapper@hotmail.com

As much as it pains me...
to defend conservatives, that comment was clearly meant to be sarcastic (and the author specifically mentions it later on).

On that site actually, most the comments overwhelmingly favor discipline for the recruiter. I think the times, they are a changin'.

[ Parent ]
He shouldn't post his resume on the 'net?
The guy's looking for a freaking JOB!
[ Parent ]
USA SGT
She needs to be shown the door.  What she thinks in private is one thing.  What she says in a professional role is another.  She is obvioulsy illiterate and a GED recipient or came in on a waiver.
Racist emails from Army recruiter
I love the optimism of all of you - but in this climate, the illiterate bigot will be promoted...
Young Republicans should Be A Man! Enlist!
Why isn't she soliciting conservative Republicans and their ilk?

Isn't it their job to Support President Bush and 'Surge' in Iraq?

Operation Yellow Elephant

Operation Yellow Elephant, a non-partisan grass roots citizens initiative to Support Our President, encourages his strongest supporters, the College and Young Republicans, to volunteer for military service.

Terrorists should Speak English!
English for the Terrorists!

We don't need any Arabic or Farsi linguists in Iraq.  If all Terrorists would just speak English, any real American could listen to them just fine.

Recruiter emails
Don't Ask; Don't Tell.  That is, don't ask the recruiter how dumb it was for her to email slurs.  Furthermore, don't ask why she feels that hateful.  Of course, even if we were to ask, she'd never tell.  Great policy.

"You are the rest of the world."
Pam & Andrew's tiff
Good Morning:

Those of you who go to Jesus General will know who I am, for the rest:  I'm an ill-tempered, pus gutted, curmudgeon who is as rabidly anti-neocon as is possible without violating the law. 

My time in the AF was so long ago (68-72) that the regs have probably changed in some ways.  However, even back when I was in USAFE (safely assigned to Germany for almost 4 years) blatant racism or homophobia, particularly if there was any documentation or a witness was punished.  For the lower ranks it generally would be an Article 15 punishment, involving loss of pay, reduction of grade, perhaps counselling.  In the case of an officer it was generally a career killer (if it was provable).

Regardless of the UCMJ's application in this instance, I'm pretty sure that US federal statutes covering hate-crimes might be the basis for a complaint filed by the ACLU or some other group.  The sad truth is that the recruiting business exists solely to obtain meat for the grinder.  If life in the military or the career opportunities offered to its members approached, for most G.I.'s, the fairy tale scenarios depicted in willfully misleading ads run by the armed services (or in its recruiters' spiels) the "All Volunteer" military would be having lay-offs or selecting a lower percentage of those who apply for entry. 

That recruiting is a con is hardly news.  It was when I went it.  I'm sure that it has been since the first group of hunter gatherers were told by the alpha male that they needed to eliminate the competition.  Of course, in those days, the alpha male was at the head of the pack instead of sitting behind a desk or standing on a stage exhorting from a very, very long distance.

This particular recruiter's behavior was indefensible.  There can be no justification (Andrew's e-mails to her could have simply been deleted, unread; or, forwarded to her NCOIC/CO if she felt that they should be answered).  Her arrogant, illogical and hate-filled rhetoric were not, likely, grafted onto her when she joined the military.  It is apparent, however, that whatever views and feelings she might have on the two subjects of being gay and of being African-American have either been or, perhaps, exacerbated by her time in the military. 

If she is in fact punished, it should not be her alone that answers for her actions.  She cannot have done something of the magnitude of sending these e-mails, imo, without having others become aware of her feelings on the issues addressed, therein.  While the military cannot, and should not be, responsible for what it's members bring to the job, they are, most certainly, responsible for their on-the-job demeanor and behavior.

That was probably way too much.  I'm going to go back to the General's and make fun of Dan Riehl, now.

Homosexuality and Its EFFECTS on the Military
What I see is a lot of bashing.

Nobody has asked the military guys WHY they object to homosexuals in the military.

Nobody has asked WHAT PROBLEMS homosexuality in the military CREATES, if any.

Nobody has asked WHETHER "effectiveness" has been curtailed; whether "complications" are beyond the ability of military discipline to deal with.

Everybody's just acting like a bunch of seven-year-olds and namecalling.

Well, I hate to say this, Kiddies, but you're never going to come to consensus about WHAT IS TRUE, what the Military can lawfully and reasonably deal with, what is appropriate and what is safe by merely calling each other names.

The IMPACT that homosexuality has on any community is well known; so let's just put the statistics out here, and start talking about facts.  I really am not interested in either your prejudices or your loyalties.

What used to be the rate of STDs before homosexuals were permitted in the military?  What is it now?

What is the rate of intra-unit arguments, discord and fights?  What was that rate, in the past?

What about the rate of intra-military rape?  Has that gone down or up?

Is it just possible that the military has objections to the presence of homosexuals ON GROUNDS OF PRACTICALITY, or the inability of the chain-of-command to facilitate or negotiate the conflicts that may be coming up?

Let's stop the name calling and talk about what's real, okay?

Emily Cragg, B.S., M.A., Conflict & Dispute Analyst
San Jose, California

at last, someone is being rationale
look, we can all get bent out of shape over a recruiter who is not of the same metal as the recruiters that generally populate the military. And some of you can bend yourselves to believe that soldiers would just as soon lynch a gay person as serve with him.  Your fervor is your fervor, but it is wasted.

The questions chaiyah posted are worth thinking about as well as many others. Why not be productive instead of bitter? I would waiger some of you "hate" the military as much as you pressume military folk hate gays.

The military has two roles and two roles only: kill people and break things. In my mind, that is it. These social experiments are counterproductive.

In the military, your rights are limited. Intelligent people agree on that. Fact is, I should never know if the soldier next to me is gay.  and this recruiter should never have learned that the recruit was gay. If that is something that a person can't keep to himself, he needs to find work elsewhere. His openness about his "lifestyle" does nothing to help the military in the roles that they needs to undertake, therefore it hinders.

And that is all

[ Parent ]
"lifestyle"
So you're saying that if I were in the military and one of my mates showed me a picture of his wife and kids - I should report him for discharge since he wasn't able to keep his "lifestyle" to himself?

I guess we'll need to get rid of any sort of family military housing as well since that would blatantly shove their lifestyle down our throats.

What you do with your spouse (gay or straight) is a private matter, that you have one shouldn't have to be.

[ Parent ]
Huh...
>>>Fact is, I should never know if the soldier next to me is gay.  and this recruiter should never have learned that the recruit was gay. If that is something that a person can't keep to himself, he needs to find work elsewhere. His openness about his "lifestyle" does nothing to help the military in the roles that they needs to undertake, therefore it hinders.<<<

Interesting. In my 8 years in the Army (87-95), there were so many times that I heard my fellow (male) soldiers talking about girls they'd banged in the village the night before, or about their girlfriends back home, or hell...even just wearing a wedding ring! All these little signs and clues that hey, these guys are heterosexuals! Holy crap! How dare they shove their sexuality down my throat?!

My point is that there are so many subtle clues and hints we give off just in the course of day-to-day activities and conversations that are completely banned to gays and lesbians under DADT. It muzzles us and forces us to lie. Which is worse? That the person next to you is honest and true to himself and others, or that he's a liar? Which would be the one most likely to be blackmailed into treasonous acts (one of the reasons cited for keeping gays out during the congressional debates in '92)?

I was one of 6 plaintiffs in a Federal lawsuit against the DADT policy. This was the first pro-active suit of its kind, every other action against the no gay policy prior to ours was reactionary to the military finding out about them. We were also the first to file suit against the new policy.

Prior to our filing suit, the military had no idea that I was gay. I had to lie to keep my job, and it was taking its toll on me. But during the two years that I continued to serve while our suit wound its way through the court system, I was out of the closet. And never had I felt more accepted by my fellow soldiers. I was finally able to give them coherent, honest answers to questions like "What did you do this weekend?" or "Why don't you ever go out with the girls I set up for you?"
And because I was more accepted, I was able to perform more cohesively with them, which made us more effective as a unit.

See how that works? Pity I got booted out after that. At least they still gave me an honorable discharge.

--Sgt. Steven Spencer, Plaintiff in Lt. Col. Jane Able et al. VS USA.

http://usmilitary.ab...

[ Parent ]
More To It Than Meets The Eye?
I was an Air Force recruiter for eight of my twenty years in the military, and I have to say that this sounds really "fishy" to me.  I was immediately reminded of a recruiter in our squadron whose office door and government vehicle were supposedly spray-painted with racial slurs and death threats.  Since all Air Force recruiters are volunteers, it was decided that she should be removed from Recruiting Service and sent back to her previous assignment rather than risk an incident.

At the same time, everyone in the squadron knew she hated recruiting and had many times stated that she would do anything to get out of it as long as it didn't harm her career.  Rumor had it that the whole incident was staged, and the recruiter's spouse and family members were the ones who vandalized the car and office.

Sound familiar?  I suspect Sgt Ramode was probably a non-volunteer for recruiting duty (or had had volunteered and quickly grew disillusioned with the job) and is looking for a way to either get out of recruiting or the Army.

On the lighter side, when DADT was first implemented I asked my boss what I should do if someone who appeared to be gay walked into my office and said "I want to join the Air Force."

His response was "Prescreen him for law violations, drug use and medical problems.  If that checks out OK, get him tested, schedule a physical and put him the Air Force.  After all, you are a recruiter, and your job is to qualify people for the Air Force, not disqualify them!" 

Then he said, "You got any more dumb questions, Sarge?"

If I was a recruiter today, I would have politely thanked the man for his response and explained that, based on his stated sexual orientation, he would be disqualified from enlistment under current DOD regulations. 

Then I would have written,  "Do you have any straight friends that you'd recommend for the US Air Force?  Give me the names of five of your friends so I can contact them about the opportunties in today's Air Force."

That's what a real recruiter would have done! 

Confused I guess...
It is unfortunate in this day and age that there is still this stigma in the military about being gay. Why exactly are people disqualified? I am confused.
I have friends and family members who have served, and I still don't understand it.
Doesn't the military support the EOE? I would think and an employer they would, but whatever.

Being gay and fighting for your country are two totally separate issues, just like being straight. It doesn't matter. Not many times do you hear about a guy on guy (or girl on girl) issue, but how many times have you heard about a women sleeping with a fellow soldier or even her commanding officer and being impregnated? I would think that is something that would be seriously frowned upon?but apparently as long and it is guy on girl sex it doesn't matter.

Any self-respecting human would stand up to that self-righteous b*tch. It seems as Corey was more than willing to speak with her about joining, but he knew the stigma about being gay and had to ask. The recruiter in no way needed to respond the way she did. If she finds it "disgusting" fine, that is her prerogative. Saying to a proudly gay man, is unacceptable.

I am not gay, and that is my choice, I have friends who are and that is their choice. Your sexuality should not be of concern if the military wants good soldiers.
Disregard race, religion, and sexuality and you find the best soldiers ever!!! Gay and straight.

I think she should be fired?will she, NO!! Why fire someone that agrees with everything the military does and believes? This will be in the press forever I am sure.
The recruiter didn't need to tell him her ethnicity, nor did he need to be a d*ck and start saying things about her heritage and being a bigot, but she didn't have to be an a**hole either. She could have blocked him from his first e-mail and just stated he didn't qualify and leave it at that.

I am appalled and knowing that the military that work so hard to preserve our freedom is disgracing what they are fighting for. Don't we all have the right as free humans to be gay or not?

My rambling is getting nowhere, but it is disappointing to know that not only one, but several military personal are so close-minded to issues, that they feel the need to spout their mouths off, as it is no big deal.

She is an absolute dumb sh*t for using her work e-mail to send these responses out. Funny, but dumb!!!  And I don't know about the rest of you, but I use my spell check and re-read things before I send them to make sure I don't sound like a fool!!!!

Emily Craig, Incognito & Old Sarge
Emily Craig:

I'm not so sure that the impact of homosexuality on any community is that well known.  The impact of intolerance of homosexuality on the other hand is very well known.  If DoD has made those statistics you mention public, I've never heard about it. 

You say that you are a B.S. & MBA in "conflict & dispute anlaysis".  I would say from the tone of your comments that you could do some more work in the area of " conflict & dispute" resolution.

Incognito:

Ummm, I think you're full of beans.  We don't agree that in the military you should have limited rights. 

Gay military members are a fact of life.  In my barracks there was a group of gay airmen that roomed together and probably got up to pretty much the same sorts of mischief that the rest of us did.  Of course they were always in danger of having the shit kicked out of them by a group, yeah it would usually be a group, of drunk young soldiers who found them in a bar off base.  I lived next to the band barracks for about two years.  AF band members were stereotyped as being gay dopers--what a hoot.  Making gays a hot button issue in the military is the work of the homophobic fundamentalists who have nightmares about seeing a man, a hot man, and giving in to their own repressed urges.  Who else would fear a man who is not competition?

Old Sarge:

My recruiter flat out lied to me to meet his quota.  It didn't mean I got put in "Harm's Way".  It meant I did not get into the career path that I was promised when I signed up.  I was assured that I would be able to switch from the General category (what he put me into to fill his quota) to the (I think) Electronics category ( I had been tested for and passed the qualifier).  Needless to say, once a supply weenie, you stay a supply weenie.  I think we were referred to as "Surplus/Critical" meaning too many of us to get promoted in a hurry or get much choice in assignments but way too few to be allowed to cross-train.  I was promised that if I re-upped I would be allowed to cross-train--not in writing, of course--so I declined.  My experience was not atypical of the time.  Other arimen I knew were promised that they would never have to worry about going to Vietnam or that, sure you'll be able to get a base assignment near his your so's you can spend time with the girl you're about to marry.  Conditions that were obviously not those they found themselves in, once they enlisted. 

I look at military recruiters the way I look at any salesman--if he's got something I want and all the cards are on the table so I can make an informed decision, then shame on me if I don't do my homework.  Unfortunately a lot of recruiters are not putting all of the cards on the table, espcecially these days.  I don't know anything about you Sarge, but I'll take your word for your own honesty and decency.  Unfortunately recruiters like the one whose actions are the subject of this thread are  probably not as rare as you believe them to be.

I AM SO ASHAMED
I wore that uniform once upon a time.  I have never been more ashamed of  it and what is is beginning to stand for than I have in the past month.

Lets just start with this madness about soldiers protecting our freedoms.  First of all, how in the hell are they protecting freedom when their own citizens are being ostracized for their way of life?  Lets get it straight.  The only thing the military is protecting is the Bush Crime Family and the rest of their cronies that were lucky enough to obtain a contractual job in Iraq.  They are no more than flies hovering over shit, waiting for the next pile to drop.

Now. lets get to the trash of the day. Not only should she have never been given that position but she did not deserve the rank that came along with it. She approached him.  That's balls.  And now she's mad because she won't meet quota. For those of you that don't know, military personnel do NOT have the freedoms they are so pressed to obtain for other countries.  It is considered treason to speak against the President.  By the same token, why can't an employer(soldier) openly discuss the shortcomings of their employee(pres)?  The military may work for this country, but in the end, the President still works for them.  Why do you think most of their votes weren't counted for either election?

The military claims they don't discriminate. I never agreed with "don't ask, don't tell" because it was just another closet to put gay military personnel in.  When a person puts on that uniform, their objective is to complete the mission for the day successfully and come back in one piece.  Nothing in any mission says you have to go out and have sex, talk about sex or talk about what sex you plan on having once the mission is completed.

And the PRO/PAO's and  anyone else can spin it anyway they want, but Pace's and this jackass sergeant's comments were enough to punish them under UCMJ.  Look it up.  The military claims it will not tolerate discrimination of ANY kind.

I have one thing to say about this homophobic bitch.  Yes, my post is riddled with profanities because I just slipped back into hardcore soldier mode.  But, I feel she needs a reality check.  In 1991, the Dept of the Army sent out a memo concerning the promotion boards for E-5 and above.  The board was to give careful consideration to the following applicants in this order:  Women(Af-AM), Hispanics , women(white). Nothing in there said anything about the gays.  I know for a fact a great many of them were either bi or full on lesbians. Why is this?  Because any logical person that has any knowledge of history, war and just common sense about people knows that a person's sexual orientation doesn't enter into the equation.  It's not like they're going to sit around having full on orgies at the drop of a hat.

These people voice their ugly thoughts about gays.  Do you really think someone just wakes up and decides they want to be gay in a society full of judgemental, hypocritical bigots?  This country is so concerned with what is going on between 2 consenting adults in the privacy of their bedrooms but I don't see it overly concerned enough to ask the President why his name came up in a scandal spanning almost 5 yrs concerning bondage, S&M and young men.

I served proudly with quite a few gay soldiers.  I knew they were, and they knew I knew.  If I ever have to put that uniform on again, I want those very same people.  We share a common  bond, my gay comrades and I.  We live, work and have loved ones in this country that we want to provide a better life for.

I feel right now, gays are the target because they are too afraid to go after other groups...you know....browner skins because as a country we've progressed beyond racial prejudices.  What a joke!! 3 steps away from slavery. First, ban homosexuals, then go back to banning blacks and women then just create a new amendment to legalise slavery.  I see the regression. I mean, amendments have been created to  validate the  use of torture in interrogating POW's on American soil in "black" prisons.  But it only protects the guys that started all of this. Because a female general fell on her sword for that very same thing.  We have become no better than the animals we are fighting.  They shoot down every bill for the legalization of gay marriages.  And it's cut and dry.  If you're a man and you're not attracted to another man then  DON'T marry him.  SIMPLE.

I certainly don't care what Pam is doing in her bedroom.  I don't care what Peter LaBarbera does in his bedroom.  It's always been my experience that those that have so much to say on the matter are the very ones you should question.  Don't worry, I'm not some nazi-fem lesbian activist.  I'm just a woman.  An American with brothers, sisters, nieces and nephews.  I grew up reading the bible attending church, but I learned to actually love my fellow man.  And it had nothing to do with the messengers. I know how much it breaks my mother's heart to see any of her children suffer because some bigot has such a sad life that they must concern themselves with others.  I've also found that these are the people whose children eventually shoot up schools or kill them in their sleep. I really haven't figured out how this balances out, but somehow it does. I don't care about these things because, in all likelihood, I will never meet  a 10th of these people. 

I do care that there are 10 yr olds in my  town that can't read on a first grade level.  I do care that child molestation is the #1 crime in the state I live in.  I do care that  90+% of those pedophiles are living "hetero", straight, married or whatever you want to call it lives.  I do care that we're fighting a war that never produced weapons of mass destruction. I do care that it costs me $30 more to fill up my favorite old rustbucket jeep.  I love jeep.  I do care that the children  of the people we entrust to  impart knowledge on our future generations, are living  off Ramen Noodles.  I do care that 5 yr olds can tell me about Brittney Spear's latest trip to re-hab but can't tie their shoes. I do care that the Constitution said church and state were supposed to have been separated but all of our laws pertaining to the War on Drugs, War on Homosexuality, War on Segregation were passed due to a large religious and bigoted influence.  I do care that one day, people won't see my speaking my mind as manic essentric but as treason. And I do care when other  people wearing a uniform say such horrific things about gays. But, I truly care that if I ever wear that uniform again, the person next to me will not concern themself with what i do with another human being and just be well trained to watch my back as I will do the same for them. 

Protectors of freedom, but deny your own the freedom to live and let live. Such hypocritical bigots.  God don't like ugly.

re: i'm so ashamed
I'm so glad Ms Gigi is my wife :-)
[ Parent ]
Change Comes From Within
Thanks for the kind words, democommie.  I can't say that I didn't tell a fib on occasion, but it was usually because I was told to do so by my flight supervisor.  As the old adage goes, "Don't s*** where you eat," and that's exactly what I'd be doing by blatantly lying to applicants.

On the other hand, Sgt Ramode's egregious behavior was totally unprofessional and could only be considered "conduct unbecoming a non-commissioned officer."  The damage she's done to the US armed forces is, in my opinion, ten times worse than anything terrorists have done.  Her CO really needs to bring her up on charges.  I'd be interested to hear how she'd explain this at a courts-martial.

What's even worse is that she not only disgraced her uniform, but own Native American heritage, as well.  Many tribes once revered Two-Spirits, as homosexuals were called, viewing them as a third gender with a special spiritual connectedness. In these tribes, Two-Spirits filled important tribal roles as counselors, storytellers and healers. 

As for DADT, I have to say that it's the first step in a long process of allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military.  But that's not going to happen tomorrow.  Just remember that those who came in at the start of DADT in the early 90's are the ones who will be making DOD policy in another ten to twenty years.  As long as all our flag grade officers and senior NCOs are "unenlightened," nothing is going to change.  No one ever said it was easy being a pioneer, but I suspect there are a lot of closeted young officers and NCOs with that goal in mind.

Don't toss that uniform in the trash, yet, Ms Gigi.  This will all be resolved one day, and you'll once again be able to say you served proudly.

OMGods!!!
Ok. I was pointed here by a good friend, and I am outraged by this *and i use this term very loosely* person's words to someone she doesn't even know. I am a gay man, and I am a Wiccan. I was going to serve in the Air Force until I was diagnosed with an incurable gastrointestinal disease. Of course I knew about DADT, but i wasn't out anyway so it really didn't matter. What kills me is that, if she looks around her wonderful New Jersey recruiting office, one of the probably four i would guess recruiters sitting there with her is probably gay or bi or has had a homosexual experience.

I have several friends in the military, some who just got out, and several of my family members have served, and if I was able, I would be serving too. Who I have sex with is no one's business. I totally agree with Miss Gigi. It's about being skilled in what you're trained to do, and being able to guard the back of the people in your unit.

All I'll say since words are escaping me is that the actions of this recruiter are disgusting because not only is she working for me, she's supposedly "representing" me by representing "my" government in soliciting people for the military. Fire her for her actions, but for her horrid grammar, punctuation, using all caps, and simply not rereading her correspondence before it's sent, I say bring back the old punishments. Let her be drawn and quartered.

May the Divine, however you worship it, bless and keep you.

Until Again,
Gaybrial

A reply to Old Sarge
Hey, Sarge:

I always like "Semper Fi" better (probably that lapsed Cath-O-Lick in me) but as we used to say, "Keep 'em flyin".

Regards.

RE: A Reply to Old Sarge
You can bet I will.  Or as we used to say back in my flying days, "Keep the gray side up and the rubber side down!"

One more thing to pass along: I was reviewing some of the comments made here, and I realized that I'd missed reading the link posted at the end of terpnurse's post.  It was interesting reading, to say the least, and it really gave me an insight into the mindset of the military hierarchy.  If you haven't read it yet, you should:

http://usmilitary.ab...

Thanks for posting that, terpnurse!

A sad representation...
This is such a sad story...not because of the content, but because it's such a sad representation of the military.

Yes, the military can be hard on the gay community. But, I can at least give my first hand account on the matter.

I am an openly gay individual that was in the military for two years. When I joined, I was scared to death of being caught for who I was, then tar-and-feathered for that. Surprisingly, I wasn't. Everyone that I came into contact and that I knew on a personal level (work people, friends, people I saw around the base all the time and that I knew and could talk with) knew that I liked men. It wasn't so much that I wore my rainbow flags everywhere. It was just how I acted, the way I carried myself, and things of that nature. Now, it's funny because some people that I was very close to didn't know about my sexual preference until I told them. I remember one friend, from Georgia, saying, "Wait...you're gay? I didn't know. I thought everyone from California was that out-going and wacky...I didn't know it was a gay thing!" She didn't care. She was just confused.

I later told her that it was a "gay thing" but it was a "me thing." Throughout my two years there, everyone I came into contact with that knew I was gay, all agreed that if they had the choice, they would take the ban off from the military of "don't ask, don't tell". They thought it was so medeival and arcane to still have that rule around. The exact reason for this rule is "troop morale." During our initial training, they said that it would be akward for someone that wasn't okay with homosexuals, or comfortable around homosexuals, to have to work with them and have in the back of their mind "them being so close to them." It was funny, cause I wandered off into my mind thinking, "What if I wasn't ok working with heterosexuals? Having them being so close to me...ew!" But even the instructor that was telling us this made it seem like, "What the hell? Really, why is this a rule?"

I agree that this rule is completely outdated, and that the original, older generation of the military is treating the military as an "old-boys club." But, if you ask the people that are in the military right now, and plan to be the new face of the military because they are going to stick it out for 20 years for the retirement pay, they would say that they'd do away with the rules.

This is my personal opinion on what should be done: "Ask the military personnel what they would like. Have each of them vote on the matter at hand." Why do I think this would work best? Mainly for the fact that it affects them personally. Don't ask some Southern Baptist minister that has never been in the military, and never will be in the military. It's not going to change his daily routine, so why is it so important for him to decide? I think the same type of voting system should be applied to the military on terms of the war in Iraq. While it's completely off the subject, I think it's the same case. They are the ones going over there and fighting, not the "average American citizen."

rofl
Sorry, the con is just a piece of paper.  Who is going to enforce it, you?? lol.

General Pace.  Yet approved by your boi Clinton.

She's not Native American
There's no way she's a Native American.  I think she just said that to One-Up Corey, so she could claim to have deeper roots than he did.  She's a disgusting pig, and a symbol of what the Conservative Party has come to be known for.

In the beginning, the Universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a Bad Move. - D. Adams
Beyond the pale: anti-gay, racist emails from Army recruiter | 64 comments
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