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The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
"a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy."

He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


Ex-gay "Christian" activist James Hartline on Pam:
"I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians."
(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth Against Homosexuality heartily endorses the Blend, calling Pam:

A "vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist."
(Concerned Women for America's radio show [9:15], 1/25/07)

"A nutty lesbian blogger."
(MassResistance radio show [16:25], 2/3/07)


Pam's House Blend always seems to find these sick f*cks. The area of the country she is in? The home state of her wife? I know, they are everywhere. Pam just does such a great job of bringing them out into the light.
--Impeach Bush


who monitors yours Bevis ?? Just thought I would drop you a line,so the rest of your life is not wasted.
--"Joe"

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The art and craft of disagreeing without being disagreeable

by: LenaD

Fri Jul 10, 2009 at 04:00:27 AM EDT


While others may have some Big Thoughts on civility, I wanted to talk about some of the nuts-and-bolts ways to engage in more civil discussions. I’ve had the good fortune to have learned some lessons in interpersonal communication that have served me well over the years — and are applicable to online discussion and debate. So here goes…
LenaD :: The art and craft of disagreeing without being disagreeable
Assumptions about other people’s intent
In my experience, when people appear to be causing problems or disagreements:
  • Typically, they’re trying to be helpful, even if doesn't seem that way. (For example, when my Mom asks for the nth if I’ve met someone nice.) When I’ve ruled that out…

  •  Typically, the remaining people are just plain oblivious to their actions. (For example, as my friends well know, I’m prone to pontificate on things I’m really interested. I just get on a roll and fail to notice the eyes glazing over.) When I’ve ruled that out…

  • Typically, the remaining people may just have goals at that are in opposition to mine. They’re opponents, but ones who aren’t acting out of malice. (For example, when haggling with the auto dealer over buying a car.) When I’ve ruled that out…

  • Then, and only, then is it a safe bet that someone’s acting antagonistically.

This process doesn’t require Mother Theresa-esque patience — usually you can assess this quite quickly. But it’s important because each case is best handled by difference responses.

In personal life, oblivious is often the easiest to deal with. Gently point out what’s going and people are often mortified and stop/change what they were doing. In spaces like this one, it’s a thornier problem, since often the oblivious actions are tied to someone’s obliviousness about their privilege – and people often get pretty defensive when they privilege is pointed out.

(For what it’s worth, having “privilege” doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person, or that you’re actively engaged in oppressing others, it just means you’ve benefitted from outside forces. For example, among my privileges, I had a proverbial rich aunt leave me some inheritance money that allowed me to go back college and change careers. Did I work my ass off in college and in my new career? You bet. But the fact of the matter is that the opportunities that I was able to make the most of stemmed from that inheritance.)

Dealing with people are trying to be helpful is similar to dealing with oblivious people: point out how what they’re saying/doing is counter-productive from your POV. Though I’ve found it helps a lot to acknowledge their good intent. Is that giving them a cookie? Possibly. But I’ve found people are often more receptive to changing their ways if you do so, and it helps focus both of you on what you want to happen. On the other hand — particularly in activism, and in spaces like this one — you both may discover that your goals aren’t the same.  If the goals are opposed, then you’re in a situation where you’re opponents — but it’s possible to compete without being antagonists. More commonly, you’re at least have some common goals and you can figure out how to work together on those.

If someone genuinely hates you and is hostile to your interests, then they’re an enemy you’ll need to fight — and fight hard if need be. If I’m taking on the wingnuts, then the gloves are off. But it seems like too often people go straight to the attack without considering whether it’s any of the other cases.

Please don’t let me be misunderstood
Conversations have a lot of places where they can get tangled up, so it’s useful to break down how conversations occur — since normally it all happens so instantaneously we don’t even think about it.

You say something to me. What you actually said may not be what you meant to say. In one way, online discussions are clearer because everything’s in written, but they’re also missing the important bits of meta-communication that occurs in face-to-face conversation, where for example you can tell that someone’s joking.

What I hear may not be what you actually said. In face-to-face conversation, I may having trouble hearing. I might not understand, or I might misinterpret, the language you use. You might (unintentionally or intentionally) be using language that causes me to feel like you’re being irrelevant, so I don’t pay close attention, or that causes me to go into “fight or flight” mode where I stop listening. Or I may have my own issues and biases that cause me to close my ears.

From what I thought I heard, I form a conclusion, partly based the message itself, partly based on my own experience and my past experience with you. (When we talk, we often omit important information and rely on the listener to fill in the information from their own experience, which usually works, but sometimes listeners fill in different information that we expected.) I may — or may not— reach a reasonable conclusion (i.e. if a dozen people heard the same thing, would the consensus interpretation match mine?).

I then react emotionally to that conclusion. The emotional significance is not just about the message itself, but how it relates to my goals, concerns, broader feelings, values, past experiences and what else is happening around me. I also decide (usually unconsciously) whether it’s OK to feel what I’m feeling. It’s not a question of whether the feeling is pleasant, but rather whether I’ll allow myself to that particular feeling at all. For example, I may have been punished in the past for feeling angry, or may have been taught that I “should” or “should not” express certain feelings in certain situations.

Based on all that, I start thinking about possible responses. How I respond may be affected by “rules” I learned about how I “ought” to do so. For example, I was taking BART back home from Pride, when a drunken guy tugged on my wig and wanted to know if it was my real hair. If he’d tried that with my drag mother, she would’ve decked him — she grew up in a tough urban neighborhood where she and others were expected to deal any disrespect like that immediately and violently. I come from a white, middle-class, suburban background, so my response was disdainful snark and the Stare Of Death. Those “rules” may be appropriate for the current situation, they may not be.

I respond — saying something that may or may not be want I meant to say — and the cycle starts all over.

All this occurs in a blink of an eye, and we rarely give any thought to it, and most of the time it works fine. But each step depends on the prior step, and so things can quickly snowball. True to Murphy’s Law, it’s usually in the middle of stressful conversations when things get tangled. So often it’s good to take a step back and consciously walk through these steps.

Asking yourself: what am I trying to accomplish?
Are you venting, trying to convince someone, or trying to prove that People Are Wrong on the Internet.

Just as in personal relationship, sometime people are frustrated and/or hurt and/or angry, and need to just vent. And sometimes the people who are the target of that anger need to shut up and just listen, and try to understand what’s driving that anger.  

Much of the anger being vented by trans people over 101 questions derailing trans discussions is that expecting us to educate others means that all-too-often all the air gets sucked out of room, leaving no discussion of the original issue at hand.

That said, venting often isn’t sufficient to change someone else’s views.  Convincing someone is essentially selling them on your POV, and that means focusing on communicating things in ways that are meaningful to them. I’m definitely mindful of oppressed minorities being expected to be deferential to the majority, as well as being expected to educate the majority about their own oppressing. That said, it’s a not an either/or situation between spoon feeding people and telling them to just frakkin' Google it.

When I was journalist one of the professional adages was: never underestimate your readers intelligence, nor overestimate their education. News, by definition, may involve subjects your readers are unfamiliar with. So it’s standard practice that when there’s an acronym or term that may be unfamiliar, to insert a brief parenthetical explanation the first time it’s used. Likewise to provide a “nut graf,” a sentence or two after the lead that quickly explains why the story is important, or a brief summary of context or background info. (Just like I’ve done here.) The web has the added advantage over my days in print because it’s easy to link to a definition or resource. Is it pandering to the majority to do these sorts of things? Possibly. But I find it really doesn’t take much extra effort — and if nothing else helps head off well-intentioned-but-clueless 101 derailing because you can point people back to the definition or resource link.

But too often in online communities of all sorts, I’ve seen people who aren’t really interested in convincing others, but rather want to prove that they’re right and other people Are Wrong. Put a couple of these people with differing views in the same discussion and it almost always ends a pissing match that sucks the air out of the room. So when I get into a heated argument, I try to take a step back from time to time to assess my intent.

Recognizing the difference between a failure to communicate and fundamental disagreement
On a related note, often argumentative death matches seem to occur when the people involved fail to recognize that they have a fundamental disagreement, not a failure to communicate their arguments clearly. How can you tell when this is the case? When each side can summarize the other’s arguments in a way that the other side agrees accurately states those arguments. If you can’t do that, then further discussion may change people’s minds, since they may not have fully understand your POV. But once a fundamental disagreement has been reached, often further discussion makes things worse — because each side feels the other is talking past them and tends to feel “I get your point, whatya think I am, stupid?”

At that point generally you either have to agree to disagree, or reframe the issue. Thomas Friedman had a great example of reframing: When talking with the Chinese about global warning, invariably someone  insisted that they shouldn’t have to reduce their greenhouse gases, after all the West didn’t have similar constraints during its development. Which Friedman agreed those constraints were unfair. Then he said, pollute all you want because in the years before you get serious about this, “America will invent all the clean-power technologies you Chinese are going to need as you choke to death on pollution. Then we’re going to come over here and sell them all to you, and we are going to clean your clock.” Needless to say, the thought of missing out on the next big global industry caused them to rethink the issue.

---

Anyway, as I said earlier, I can ramble on... so I’ll stop here.

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Know your audience
When communicating using anything other than a private line - in other words, a comment on a blog as opposed to a private e-mail, consider what your aim is, and who may be reading it.

I'm notorious for commenting on newspaper sites, blogs and fora. Usually I try to inform - I won't say educate, as that implies a power relationship.

But very often when confronted with vehement opposition, I'm not primarily answering the poster, and trying to convince them. I'm talking to anyone and everyone who may be monitoring the conversation.

There are very few transphobic RadFem sites where I haven't been severely flamed, should I dare venture there. However, by calmly giving evidence, answering violence with facts, and not answering in kind with ad-hominems, insults etc I've given more than a few readers food for thought. Just this week, 2 women took the time and trouble to e-mail me, saying how impressed they were with the way I had reacted with firm but polite rationality rather than incoherent rage. It caused them to re-evaluate some of the tenets of RadFem seperatism. It wasn't I who was demonstrating privilege and "othering". And that was so obvious, they couldn't ignore that. They saw that I was being treated by the Womyn-Born-Womyn brigade exactly the same way that they themselves had been treated by the most hidebound and reactionary Patriarchally-privileged Male Supremacists, and it bothered them.

Now while you can fake it, the way to remain civil is to respect those you're answering. This can be really difficult with some (NARTH, FOTF, MassResistance, J.M.Bailey...) but even then, even in the most hate-filled groups, most of the rank-and-file are actually good people, trying to do what's right. There are exceptions - and for those, being exceedingly, excruciatingly polite to them is a lot of fun, as there's nothing that enrages them into full-blown berserk fury more than that.

Civility doesn't just make for a more pleasant communication. It's more effective in convincing the audience too.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse


Oh yes, one more thing...
In a polite, civil and rational conversation, you sometimes find that rather than you convincing them, they convince you.

The idea is not to "win" a competition: it's to better the situation. That can sometimes mean changing your mind, when you find you're less correct than you should be.  

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse


[ Parent ]
Oh well said, ZoeB
It comes down to intent, "bettering the situation" versus "win a competition".

One has an honest basis and the other a disingenuous flavor.


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."


[ Parent ]
But I like to win!
sorry, just joking :)

Great post btw, there are times when the loudest voice is the one that refuses to scream.

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/


[ Parent ]
Pam, it's all like my second-favorite movie line
(from The Wild Bunch) "I know what you meant to do, it's what you DID that I don't like!"

Suggestion: NVC (NonViolent Communication)
Great stuff. You can learn more about it at cnvc.org.

Very short version of some of the useful perspective you might find there: When I was growing up my mom taught us the difference between I-messages and you-messages.

I-messages refer to my own feelings and needs. As in: "I need to take part in a community where everyone is respectful of others."

You-messages refer to the other person. Such as: "you are (fill in epithet here). You don't know what you are talking about. You must want (fill in the blank)."

The problem with you-messages is that they don't really contain useful information. The really useful information would be in the I-message that would tell us the feelings and needs of the person speaking.

While it is very challenging to attempt to really have great dialog electronically, I often wish that more people were aware of the difference between I-messages and you-messages and used I-messages more frequently.


Thanks for the additional suggestions
Obviously I just scratched the surface.

A couple other thoughts:

- Don't mistake civility for weakness. I can be pretty blunt, and I've been known smack people with a 2x4 between the eyes when it seemed needed, but I've always tried to do so with respect. "Hate the sin not the sinner" gets a bad rap because the phrase has been so misused, but it is a good point about taking issue with what someone says or does, rather than making it personal.

- To borrow from the ever-awesome Jamison Green... There's no one way to be trans (or lesbian, gay, bi, straight, white, black, etc.) Too often I see people acting like their experience is -- and should be -- everyone else's experience.

At the forum I mod, we encourage people talk about their own experiences and what they've personally observed -- and to avoid projecting those experiences on others or making sweeping generalizations.

FWIW, I think using qualifiers such as "usually," "typically," "most people" etc. are a good way of avoiding causing people to get unnecessarily defensive. The problem is often when people hear things like "all X do Y," people who are part of Group X -- especially if they don't do Y -- they get defensive. Yeah, they should remember that if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it -- but that's easier said than done. I suppose some people will see that as giving a cookie or requiring the oppressed to make their oppressors feel good, but to me it doesn't take much effort, and usually when people talk about "Group X" they usually don't mean 100% of people in that group anyway, so why not be clearer if help prevent your audience from tuning out. (That's not to say one shouldn't call out specific people about specific attitudes or actions, but that's far different that making sweeping generalizations.)

- To borrow helen boyd: Remember everyone posting is a person, and most of them are likeable, and facing discrimination makes life pretty difficult and complicated for most of us. Sometimes, someone may just be having a bad day. Give people as much room as you'd like for yourself.


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