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"A nutty lesbian blogger."
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Discussing racism and misogyny - one step forward, two steps back, and a lot of pointing fingers

by: Pam Spaulding

Sun Apr 15, 2007 at 22:30:00 PM EDT


Journalist Gwen Ifill was on Meet the Press today and she named names on how the Imus matter was handled and his clubby enablers who allowed him to race-bait and engage in misogyny as long as their book, career or program was promoted on his show. The gloves came off (transcript courtesy of Think Progress):
You know, it's interesting to me. This has been an interesting week. The people who have spoken, the people who issued statements and the people who haven't. There has been radio silence from a lot of people who have done this program who could have spoken up and said, I find this offensive or I didn't know. These people didn't speak up. Tim, we didn't hear from you. David [Brooks, NYT columnist], we didn't hear from you.

What was missing in this debate was someone saying, you know, I understand that this is offensive. You know, I have a 7-year-old god daughter. Yesterday she went out shopping with her mom for ... basketball shoes so she can play basketball. The offense, the slur that Imus directed at me happened more than 10 years ago. I would like to think that 10 years from now, that Asia isn't going to be deciding that she wants to get recruited for the college basketball team or be a tennis pro or go to medical school and that she is still vulnerable to those kinds of casual slurs and insults that I got 10 years ago, and that people will say, I didn't know, or people will say, I wasn't listening. A lot of people did know and a lot of people were listening and they just decided it was okay. They decided this culture of meanness was fine - until they got caught.

My concern about Mr. Imus and a lot of people and a lot of the debate in this society is not that people are sorry that they say these things, they are sorry that someone catches them. When Don Imus said this about me when I worked here at NBC [he referred to her as "the cleaning lady" they allowed into the White House], when I found out about it, his producer called because Don said he wants to apologize. Well, now he says he never said it. What was he apologizing for? He was apologizing for getting caught, not apologizing for having said it in the first place. And that to me is the debate we need to have, David is right, about the culture of meanness, about the culture of racial complaint, about the internal culture within our community about how we talk to one another. But just this week it was finally saying, enough.

Yes. It's about having a dialogue about all of it, not just what Imus said. This whole blame game is messed up and everyone is running for cover trying to weasel their way out of having the deeper discussion regarding what all of this is about.

Actually, it's all kind of FUBAR at this point. I'll get to that a bit later.

Let's start off with some important observations and distinctions about why you're seeing the defense of rap, even with it's misogyny. When it comes down to it, they don't like "Whitey" pointing it out -- they leap to defending the right to self-defined cultural expression -- not freedom of speech, mind you, but an ethno-centric form of expression, the black vernacular within that genre. That's what you hear when people get defensive about why everyone is "picking on" hip-hop only.

While that argument has some validity, it falls flat in a major way -- since the defenders of this particular flavor of the hip-hop genre are saying that the "expression" of a slice of black culture is blatant, ugly misogyny and we're supposed to be ok with that, as black women, as Americans? I'm not the only one calling bullsh*t.

At Huff Post, Ali Eteraz, writes, in his essay, "Dirty Hip Hop and Whether Blacks Need to Teach Whites Better":

What the civil rights movement did, beyond giving political rights to a subjugated minority, was to say that in the white/minority discussion, minorities speak for themselves, and to themselves. The civil rights movement destroyed anglo-centrism. Before it, minorities spoke about themselves, to whites; minorities had to speak about themselves as whites spoke about them. This was why, before the civil rights movement, blacks called themselves "negroes" and "colored" in the manner of whites but afterwards started calling themselves "black" or "African American." The destruction of anglo-centrism is the most important spiritual legacy of the civil rights movement. Blacks and other ethnic minorities cannot now let a group of entertainers and producers of pornography re-assert this anglo-centrism simply because it profits them (i.e. Snoop Dogg gets a nice cut from Joe Francis of Girls Gone Wild). Yet, with the rise of degradation in hip hop, that is precisely what is happening, and misogyny is simply the most egregious example.

Mainstream hip hop is replete with misogyny far worse than anything Imus expressed. In fact, mainstream hip hop is actually a toned down version of the truly predatory examples of hip hop patriarchy. Those that want to see such examples should watch BET's "uncut" videos, specifically "Tip Drill" by Nelly (warning, nudity and explicit sexual content) which goes something like this: "It must be yo ass cuz it aint yo face" while hundreds of faceless backsides shake towards the camera. In other words, hip hop misogyny today is so bad that the first step will not be to affirm women's minds; it will be to affirm that a woman's face comes before her backside!

Ah, Tip Drill. Folks, if you haven't seen Nelly's video, it will break the whole nasty thing down for you. See what I mean after the jump. And if you're worried about work-safe pictures, don't say I didn't warn you.
Pam Spaulding :: Discussing racism and misogyny - one step forward, two steps back, and a lot of pointing fingers
This video has to be a milestone in misogyny. Nelly's lyrics describe what he perceives to be ugly women with great bodies who need to hand themselves over to him -- and his crew -- and they'll slide money in their thong and, well, other things. Of course the women enjoy and beg for this, in his little fantasy video. The sad truth is, the women -- all beautiful, btw, since that wouldn't make a good video for the fellas to wank off to, willingly shook their asses in the camera, some almost completely nude in the uncut version.

How low can you go in terms of objectifying and debasing women? Nelly slides a credit card in the ass crack of one of the women "shaking it" in his face

A snippet:
(Chorus)
I said it must be ya ass cause it aint yo face i need a tip drill i need a tip drill
I said it must be ya ass cause it aint yo face i nedde a tip drill i need a tip drill
Said if you see a tip drill point her out where she at point her out where she at point her out there she go
Said if you see a tip drill point her out where she at point her out where she at point her out there she go

(Break down)
I need a freak Ooh to hold me tight I need a freak for 7 days and 7 nights ooh I need a freeak ohh that will not choke ohh i need a freak to let me stick it down her oooooh
I actually had to sit through 6:50 of this shite to see the horrid credit card scene. Yep, it's a free country, and they can make a living however they choose, but it made me sad and angry to see these women willingly allowing themselves to be degraded this way.

How far we've fallen to go from James Brown and "I'm black and I'm proud" a few decades ago, to "hos and bitches," selling black women nationwide as pieces of meat to America. Is this what it's about -- equal opportunity sexism and hatred for women as a commercial venture?

Would Nelly -- and all the executives at his label -- like their daughters to participate in a video like this, with men gleefully grabbing and groping these women like playtoys? No one is making anyone buy this, but the record companies, BET and anyone else profiting off of it have daughters, sisters and mothers -- have they no awareness of how this is culturally hurtful to women, and black women in particular.

Note: the fact that Nelly can make a video like this, and still have a charity for children with cancer, 4 Sho 4 Kids Foundation (formed because of a sister suffering from leukemia), shows you the disconnect one can have -- you can still perpetrate the worst stereotypes about women and not be a wholly bad person. It's too easy to say it's all about gangstas and thugs, it's about a hatred and demeaning of women so ingrained they don't even know or see how bad it really is.

This is what Imus used as his defense. He was wrong, and these "artists" are wrong. There isn't a need to compare whose sin is worse -- no one is off the hook. It doesn't matter that Nelly isn't interviewing presidential candidates if the subject at hand is solely about misogyny. It also has nothing to do with whether people let Don Imus's advertisers know that "nappy-headed hos" was inappropriate for someone broadcasting over the public airwaves. These are separate and equally troubling issues -- and yes, we can talk about them both at the same time.

Thankfully Imus's bigotry brought this back into the spotlight, and that's a good thing, because I don't think the country at large was going to have an honest, difficult conversation about this otherwise.

When the Tip Drill video was released a few years ago, there was attention drawn to it, but it likely didn't get on the radar of the MSM, again -- because regardless of political persuasion, whites tend to address misogyny in rap as a matter for blacks to attend to.

Nelly and Tip Drill were taken to task by women at Spelman College, who said enough is enough. From Tony Norman in the Tuesday, April 27, 2004 edition of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

I used to wonder what it would take to spur a mass uprising among black college-age women about the way they're depicted on cable outlets like BET and MTV.

Would derogatory terms bandied about like the filthy stuttering of illiterate school boys do the trick? Nope. What about a constant stream of video images reinforcing the dubious connection between black femininity, crude materialism and unhinged sexuality? Nope, that's just par for the course.

....Spelman College students were so outraged by Nelly's video that they decided it was time to protest such a crude assault on their collective dignity.

I don't know why it took so many intelligent young women so long to get mad about the wholesale disrespect of their womanhood, but thank goodness they finally did. Waiting for the NAACP or BET to take the lead in criticizing millionaire exploiters of black women is like waiting for the government to apologize for slavery. It's not going to happen.

What the women of Spelman did in March of that year was to hold panels about rap lyrics and the role of "unindicted co-conspirators," accourding to Norman -- those black women shaking it in these horrible videos for the almighty dollar, without any concern about how black women are being portrayed.

Nelly actually had a scheduled performance at Spelman the following month, and when women there  threatened to picket it, he canceled the show. And you won't believe how Nelly's management spun the protest.

The rapper's management blamed the students for being unable to distinguish between an outrageous stage act and real life.
You know, this isn't about Nelly -- there are plenty of other artists who have ventured into this level of misogyny and they'll keep on coming as long as people of all colors continue buying them, and the record companies select those kinds of artists to promote.

Cori Murray of Essence Magazine's Take Back the Music campaign -- back in 2005 (again, was the MSM paying any attention?) -- explained the difficulty within the community of taking a stand :

"I was one of those people" who said, " "Oh, it's the beat. They're not really talking about me,' " she says.

Even as a key player in Essence's campaign, she still has a hard time criticizing rap. "It's my music," she says. "I just want to see it grow in a different way."

Another reason for the delay? Black women did not want to sell out their black brothers - even if they sold them out. "We didn't want to spank their hands, especially publicly," Murray says. "As a community, we have this thing about airing our dirty laundry."

But as rap became racier and offered more of a one-dimensional view of black women, "we realized we had to say something," Murray says. "Yes, it's going to hurt. Yes, we're putting these guys on blast. But you know what, we gotta do it because it's our lives. It's our souls. "It's hurting us too much."

Murray has seen the impact the images have had on her niece, and the girl still wears diapers.

Once, she says, the girl gyrated and cooed, "Dip it low, make your man say oh."

The way the toddler moved and sang, like the women in the Dip It Low video, left Murray dumbfounded.

"She's 2," she says. "If she's doing this now, I can't imagine what kind of songs are going to be out when she's 5 or 6."

***

Way back at the beginning of this piece, I said that things are now FUBAR. This is why -- going back to Ali Eteraz's Huff Post piece, we move into third rail territory by citing another blog, The Assault On Black Folk's Sanity, where the basic argument that one can gather is that it's the fault of the Jews running hip-hop -- those who are the real puppetmasters, that blacks are not the powerbrokers in the genre. Not the people running hip-hop, the Jews running hip-hop.

So what about the black record industry pioneers of Hip Hop. Any there? Well, maybe Sylvia Robinson in the late 1970's, but that was over in a heart beat. The real Hip Hop record pioneers?

There you have them: William Socolov, Arthur Russell (Sleeping Bag Records), Rick Rubin (Def Jam Recordings), Steve Plotniki and Corey Robbins (Profile Records), Jerry Allen (BDP Records), Tom Silverman (Tommy Boy Records), maybe even Hiroshi Matsuo (Pallas Records). None of them black, one is Japanese. Oh, and let's not forget Arthur Baker (Fat Boys), and the late Steve Salem (hope you're doing ok up there, my man).

...Moreover, most of these individuals are Jewish. I don't think that either Joel Springarn, Michael Schwerner, or Andrew Goodman would appreciate them facilitating the harm to the black image as they do. This is not what these heros of the civil rights struggle worked and died for. I think it is for their like-minded ideological descendants who are Jewish to take these executives to task for their selling and producing the most vile imagery of African-Americans since D.W. Griffith's Birth of A Nation. Given these days' political climate, people who would or could do so and are not Jewish, unfortunately are to susceptible to being tainted with the charge of anti-Semitism.

It may be important to point out the fact that at the core, there are a lot of rich black rappers, and that those with the power aren't black, but this, friends, isn't a productive way to further engage in the dialogue, given everyone's ready to accuse this group or that group of fault or blame for a disease of racism, sexism and homophobia that pervades the American culture, and we're clearly so immature about addressing it all that we can't move beyond pointing fingers.
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Quite a revelation moving SOUTH
Spending my first 50 years in Progressive Minnesota, and having parents who didn't use slurs, and spending most of my Jr High and Senior High and college years with friends of every race, coming South was a rude awakening.It's not just the whites who are blatantly racist, (my own lover is prone to the N-word, but I think he uses it to aggrevate me, he wouldn't ever say it to a Black person),but the judgemental hierarchy of African Americans amongst themselves is blatant too. One liberal African American friend in New Orleans, who works in theater, (and since Katrina lives with two gay men), when she speaks of rough uneducated street Blacks...nappy is what she calls them.

Sounds right
I think Pam should get an Hip-Hop Music magazine (like HipHopPow) and make sort of interview / cooperation and talk about all that stuff in a place where "Hip Hop Heads" are at, give them a point to work with.

What you think? (Pam? would you like to do it?)


[ Parent ]
Good quote and my first (rudimentary) comment
--you can still perpetrate the worst stereotypes about women and not be a wholly bad person--

That's an important observation. It's really a fiction that harm-doers are "bad" people. Of course, the predisposition to do harm, if only by ignorant accident, is fair game for character flaw. And sadly, everyone participates in the doing of harm.

I'll probably have more to post later, but I hope to see more comments about free speech. I recognize that you said, "there free to make a living how they want, but..." After the "but" comes the issue.

Legally speaking, its probably perfectly fair game to boycott, to pressure/shame record companies. It's absolutely fair game to ask music fans to purchase with their consciences and ask them to reexamine their consciences. I'll probably have to go over some stuff myself. But with the legitamite motive to promote more responsible media, there is also a legitamite motive to promote more expressive media, including media that offends us, you, we, or them. I think (and hope) there should be a balance, and dialogue on the balance, and how to implement it, would be a marveloud discussion of creative thought.

To be sure, it's impossible to dismiss the concerns raised about the pervasive media portrayals and their effect on young people. Media is everywhere. It is an atmosphere. The media of rap (advertisements, tv, commercials, movies, etc.) tends to have these common portrayals of (black) women which are really difficult/impossible to pass as good portrayals of black women. And we all play a part in creating them. So the concerns are impossible to dismiss.

I do hope the discussion brings positive, constrictive thoughts on the hope of free speech and expression while balancing that with the need to manage and regulate the media which we have created, which is everywhere, which is shaping us, our children, and in ways we may not be consciously aware of.


typo
--brings positive, constrictive thoughts--

I meant to stay positive, CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts, assuming Freud didn't play my tounge :)

Onwards to vigorous, thoughtful dialogue!


Nail on the Head Award
How far we've fallen to go from James Brown and "I'm black and I'm proud" a few decades ago, to "hos and bitches," selling black women nationwide as pieces of meat to America.

Pam, you know I love you for your mind.  You nailed it.  I imagine it as a bumper sticker:

"Say it loud: I'm black and I'm proud."  James Brown, 1968
"If the n****z hate then let 'em hate then watch the money pile up."  50 Cent, 2003

"If people let government decide which foods they eat and medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson


Hot as hell, Gwen Ifill!!!
I watched the clip from her appearance on Meet the Press and now I want to start a Gwen Ifill fan club.

She put Russert and Brooks in their place on national television and they deserved it.  The problem isn't that Imus is racist/sexist - it is that so many people don't mind that he is and are willing to share his platform with him.

All the people that listen to that kind of bullshit - on his show and on the many others that air on TV and radio - are willful participants in the perpetuation of bigotry.  Those listeners help keep ratings up, attract advertisers to sponsor the program and enable the show to be aired in more markets, thus spreading the disease. 

This is not a free speech issue.  The gov't has done nothing to punish Imus or limit his access to the airwaves or restrict his liberty.  He can still say anything he wants - just as much as any of his listeners are free to do.  The difference is that now he wont be paid 10 million dollars to say everything that his racist/sexist audience is thinking but wouldn't dare say themselves. 

If only Russert and Brooks and Ifill (and the rest of them) would put Dick Cheney et al on notice about the lies they spread and the alliances they keep [kissing Dobson's ass while considering baby-momma Mary C as a special case of lesbian parenthood].  Maybe her appearance on MtP will be a start of a renewed version of confrontational journalism.

Rap music is naughty?  Have you ever heard the lyrics from Burt Bacharach's "Wives and Lovers"?  "Hey, little girl...comb your hair, put on your make up..."  He wasn't graphic in his sexist lyrics, but the attitude is equally offensive.  Using song lyrics as a 'gotcha' moment only proves the point made by Imus' firing:  As long as there is an audience that financially supports the willful dissemination of racism/sexism and there is no response from critics of it, it will continue. 


Gwen Ifill's remarks
- dead on.  Simply, dead on.  She knows the score.  In one fell swoop, she "called" untold media people, at least a couple commenters to this blog, and a whole culture or two.  I'm glad the gloves are off.

Two, or three, or a million wrongs don't make a right.  Don Imus's comments are not OK because of misogyny and racism in hip-hop, and misogyny and racism in hip-hop are not OK because of Don Imus's comments.

The lyrics to "Wives and Lovers" are dreadful.  (The end of "Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town" is even worse.)


[ Parent ]
A few completely unrelated observations
One, excellent post, as usual.

Two, does anyone actually pay attention to the lyrics in cRap music?  As far as I can tell, and from what little I've heard, they are incomprehensible.  It's the incessant beat, beat, beat that seems to appeal, particularly to the white crowd.

Three, Ifill was quite correct.  He was apologizing for getting caught, not apologizing for having said it in the first place.  These sanctimonious jackasses apologize, not for doing the act, but because they got caught.  That was the case with Imus, that was the case with Ted Haggard, and that was the case with Jimmy Swaggard (remember him?).  The sin is not the act, the sin is getting caught, and, quite frankly, I'm tired of these Scheinheiligen* crying crocodile tears after having gotten caught.

*Scheinheilig: a German word that loosely translates to "hypocrite."  Actually, it's much more descriptive.  "Schein" means "appears to be" and "heilig" means "holy."

Four, on the general theme of the post

(a) It should be apparent that there is an "in-crowd" who can use language among themselves that would be forbidden to the "out-crowd."  Except in certain circumstances and certain cirumstances.  As an example of a "certain circumstance," there was a radical lefty book in the 1960s, during the height of the Vietnam war The Student As Nigger.  A provocative use of the word?  Yes.  An inappropriate use of the word?  No.  Words have emotive content, and that was an appropriate use of a word having highly emotive content. 

Imus used the term that he, being of a member of the "out-crowd," was forbidden to him (it "hos" might also have been libelous) in a manner that was not directed to a third party unrelated to the term against whom it has been used in a denigrating manner (example from above, "the student as nigger").  Context is everything.

(b) I kinda/sorta agree that black people, as a community, should get rid of the cRap music, but I kinda/sorta don't know how they might go about it.  cRap is more white exploitation of the black community, but the exploitation is paying the performers--and that is what they are, performers--huge rewards.  Remember those blacksploitation movies of the early 1970s?  Similar thing.  I'm not going to go to the Imus thing and call the black actors and actresses in the cRap videos "hos," but...you get my drift.  They're working for the almighty dollar, and, if I were in their places, I'd probably do the same.


A White Man's View of Black Music and Culture
Pam, I agree with what you wrote (with one exception below), but especially it's good to see your candor. Not that this is the first time. I arrived at this blog a week ago in a completely different conversation, and since then I've been really impressed by your writing and by the way in which things are hashed out here without slamming people who express a divergent point of view.

I'm a 49-year-old white guy who grew up in Milwaukee, one of the five most segregated cities in America. In my youth it was scrupulously correct on the surface, allowing whites to imagine that they were perfectly reasonable at all times. To me, that whole facade was shattered with the Jeffrey Dahmer murders that revealed a police department that not only didn't care but which in one occasion actually handed a 14-year-old boy back to him.

I think I grew up with exaggerated hopes and fears. My fears were embodied by the riots of '67 and by being mugged by black kids in local parks, and my hopes were embodied by the music of jazz (my father played the hell out of Kind of Blue and My Favorite Things, not to teach me about black people but because he loved the music, and so did I) and Motown.

It seems so corny to say this, but as a teenager I'd listen to those songs and I'd think:

Ooh-oo child, things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child, things'll get brighter
Ooh-oo child, things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child, things'll be brighter

But things didn't really get a whole lot better, did they? When I was a kid, there wasn't any crack or meth on the streets. You didn't have the level of crime we see now. Of course, there were costs: That brutal Milwaukee police department, which also by the way would send undercover cops into gay bars, take guys home and then bust them for sex crimes in their houses.

At which point The Milwaukee Journal would publish their names and addresses. More than a few suicides resulted from that. At the school I attended, there were separate rest rooms for faculty and students. It seems that in the late '50s, a teacher caught a couple of young punks smoking cigs in what were then "integrated" rest rooms. They accused the teacher, who was widely known to be a homosexual, of molesting them.

There was literally a show trial held on a stage, attended by hundreds of parents screaming for this teacher's head. He moved out of town and was never heard from again. That one was so unfair that even The Journal disapproved. So restrooms were "segregated." That's how things changed when I was a kid.

Back to race relations. Yeah, things sure didn't get a whole lot better, did they? I have a brother teaching in the predominently black Milwaukee school system, and he says it's a disaster. Kids come to school woefully unprepared, from households whose parents obviously couldn't care less. My brother actively encourages many of these kids to join the military, even though he doesn't approve of the Iraq war. "They've got to get out here," he says.

And the music? Well, let's just say that it's been a while since black kids were listening to Miles Davis, The Temptations or The Five Stairsteps:

Ooh-oo child, things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child, things'll get brighter
Ooh-oo child, things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child, things'll be brighter

Pam, let me mention the one thing you wrote that I disagree with. It's not your text I dispute, but the subtext -- the implication of racist indifference that I perceive behind your words:

When the Tip Drill video was released a few years ago, there was attention drawn to it, but it likely didn't get on the radar of the MSM, again -- because regardless of political persuasion, whites tend to address misogyny in rap as a matter for blacks to attend to.

Do you think whites don't care about this stuff? Well, the truth is that "the white community," like "the black community," is diverse and cannot be conveniently summed up. I think most whites, especially any older than about 30, listen to hip-hop and run the other way. It is the modern-day equivalent of the riots and crime that scared me when I was young.

Those of us who spend a little more time thinking about it, typically because we love music and realize that without black people there would be no jazz, blues, rock 'n roll and even a lot less country music, passionately lament the arrival of hip-hop. It's an utter tragedy.

But, really, Pam, how can whites point a finger and instruct black people on what music to create and listen to? What, blacks are supposed to worry about what I find entertaining? That's not a power I'd want even if I could have it. The answer is going to have to come from black people. I say it not because I don't care, but because I DO care.

Ooh-oo child, things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child, things'll get brighter
Ooh-oo child, things are gonna get easier
Ooh-oo child, things'll be brighter


BANNED for TOS violations.


White attitude towards speaking about rap
Well, the white feminists called misogyny on specific rappers, and were pretty much called racist bitches who wouldn't mind their own business.

The mainstream white youth culture loves the misogyny and violence.

Their parents are clueless, or just complain about all rap being morally vile, instead of distinguishing between good and bad rap.

The conservative white pundits use violent rap as a way to defame all blacks.

The liberal black pundits who want uplifting rap are laughed at.

The artists making thoughtful, nonviolent, nonmisogynistic rap generally find themselves stalled at "open mike night" stage in their career, or do alternate venues.

No-win.

I stay out of it, unless I really go on a tear about Bratz dolls, misogynistic rap, f*ck-me clothes for pre-teens, and so on.


[ Parent ]
Blacks Need to Lead
I think the way to handle this is for black folks to organize at the grass roots. Young black people of both sexes should be demonstrating at the performances by these hip-hoppers. White youth should join in, but black youth have got to be in the lead.

I don't expect any of that to happen, but maybe that's because I'm old, jaded, cynical and pessimistic. Youth has a way of proving their elders wrong, and this is one elder who would be ecstatic if it ever happened.

BANNED for TOS violations.


[ Parent ]
to answer your question
But, really, Pam, how can whites point a finger and instruct black people on what music to create and listen to?

It isn't about instructing black people about anything. My point is that many white people feel that they cannot comment about the issue because of the (realistic) fear that they will be on the receiving end of criticism from blacks, who are way too defensive about calling out this nonsense.

That's the whole third rail thing. Nothing will be solved about these ills unless they can be addressed in all communities. It's why you're seeing a lot of uneasy white progressives who are unsure how to handle this discussion. The white conservatives have no problem, because demonizing the minority communities is par for the course. When they actually have a point that this element of hip-hop is negative, the knee-jerk reaction is to say this is racist because of the source. It's no different than the right wing smokescreen that goes up whenever Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton open their mouths -- their reputations precede them and taint any message that actually makes sense.

The political polarization over the issue is what is making it difficult for anyone to have an honest discussion about race and misogyny in this case.


[ Parent ]
Thanks ...
... for your answer. I see that I misconstrued your original comment.

BANNED for TOS violations.

[ Parent ]
Not Getting it
Roger Cohen, in his op-ed piece in the International Herald Tribune last Friday, takes Imus, amongst others, to task for either promoting or silently enabling race as still being an explosive dividing line in America.  Indeed it race still is something, as others have cited here, that America needs to do a lot of growing up about.  But Rich's following comment is astonishing in its ignorance.

"Slavery and segregation did not happen somewhere else. They happened here."

This is patently untrue, made the more egregious by Rich's further citation of growing up in South Africa, and its apartheid policy.  How can a man who witnessed the slavery and submission of people in another country claim exclusivity in the case of Imus?

Slavery continues to be the blight of many countries all across Africa, the Middle East, Southeast Asia and the Far East. Even in Europe, where a large network operates of Albanian and Ukranian gangs bringing in women from Eastern Europe into forced prostitution, does slavery exist.  Women and children of Nigeria are trafficked and sexually exploited by their own people. Segregation, far from being an American hangover, thrives in the former Yugoslavia and other Balkan states, the Arab disdain of the African, the virtual slavery of Filipino guest workers worldwide, the regime in Burma against the Karen, and it thrives to this day in Northern Ireland, Poland, Australia, Britain, Fiji and anywhere else you'd care to mention.  The American experience is nothing new, it's just the only one the American news cares about.

Cohen's comment is indicative of the western, particularly American, media's masturbatory focus on what happens at home, focussing on slavery and segregation as a uniquely American experience and thus disregarding slavery as a millenium old practice that survives to this day and that segregation doesn't only happen to African Americans and is not exclusive to the American Experience. 

I have no sympathy for it and am frankly bored of it after listening to it for over forty years.  The Rutgers ladies can claim to be scarred for life but let them look at the scars from the survivors of Rwanda and Darfur.  Imus is an idiot, to be sure, but he's an old pale white male old fart and why anyone thinks he has something to say is beyond me.  That the hip-hop wallahs continue to promote the same message under the guise of cultural expression or target marketing is disingenous at best, just plain greed at worst.

America needs to grow up about race, it's long past time this issue was over, and the protagonists as well as the antogonists need to recognise that goading each other over the issue does not forward the conversation.  You're either an American or you're not, you claim it for yourself or you don't, and that is the only answer to this. 

America's credibility in the world will take a generation or more to claw back, with all the danger that entails, and we're jerking off over a useless old fart saying nappy headed ho's.

Sheesh.


You See What You Want to See
When Rich wrote that slavery and segregation didn't happen somewhere else, they happened here, I took it as a recognition of the country's original sin. Which actually was its second sin, because the original sin was the genocide of the native population.

The racial divide in this country is not "over," and it won't be "over" by wishing it away. I think most people critically misunderstand the American revolution. It wasn't just a breakaway from England, it was also the first civil war. Most of the killing at that time was, to use a current construction, "American-on-American violence."

This matters it bears directly on how the deal on slavery that was brokered to end that first civil war. The continuation of slavery was the South's price for joining the fragile and divided new country, including the infamous formula that counted 60% of the slave population for determining the political representation in the new congress.

That deal was abrogated by the second civil war of 1861-1865, then reinstated in a de facto sense by the collapse of Reconstruction, then again aborgated in what very nearly became a third civil war in the 1960s. In a very real sense, blacks have been emancipated only since the enactment of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and various forms of reparations ranging from enhanced welfare benefits to affirmative action have been in place for roughly 30 years.

We have a long way to go, and there have and will continue to be all kinds of stumbles along the way, ranging from Don Imus to hip-hop to a stray passage in a New York Times op-ed piece to crack whores to David Duke to the abandonment and villification of the starving and thirsty black victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Don't sit there and say this is over, or that it's all about one guy's stupid comment, and that if we can just ignore Imus then everything will be o.k. We can disagree like crazy over the limits of free speech and/or editorial judgment, but changing the channel and thinking that the racial divide in this country will be "over" is lunacy.

BANNED for TOS violations.


[ Parent ]
As do we all
You weren't reading, Mr. Wilson.  I didn't say it was over.  I said it was long time past it was over.  Our national history, as you well cite, should indicate it's over.  We have the political, financial intellectual and social means to make it over.  But it isn't.  That one stupid guy's stupid comment indicates it isn't is sad in the extreme.  Sheesh.

[ Parent ]
You Missed My Point
I didn't say it was over. I said it was long time past it was over.

And I say that blacks have only been truly emancipated for 42 years. It's not "long time past it was over." To wish it "over" is premature. Very premature.

BANNED for TOS violations.


[ Parent ]
Wishing
I'm not wishing anything, Mr. Wilson, but I'll take your point that it's premature if that's what you say it is.  Only it's clear that you missed the point of my post as I suspected might happen.  If blacks have only been truly emancipated in America for 42 years, well that's 42 years more than millions of other people across the globe. The problem is world-wide and in many places far worse than it is in the States.  Only nobody wants to put the American experience in a global perspective, or hear that others have the same or worse problems.  That would deny American exceptionalism and invalidate the complaint.  I promise not to take your myopia as the standard, if you promise not to twist my words to suit it.

[ Parent ]
The "Complaint" Is Valid
Only nobody wants to put the American experience in a global perspective, or hear that others have the same or worse problems. That would deny American exceptionalism and invalidate the complaint.

You glossed over what I wrote at the very beginning of my original posting. I had a different interpretation of what Rich wrote than you did. I didn't see him as trying to argue that the U.S. is the only country that has had slavery.

In fact, the slave experience in the U.S. wasn't as bad as elsewhere. The Portugese who brought slaves to Brazilian sugar plantations were far worse, for example, and anyone who thinks Brazil is free of racial problems is blind. The same could be said about a multitude of other situations around the world.

Nevertheless, we are who and what we are here, and we have a legacy of slavery and degradation. It's not long past due that it's "over." It's here, and it's a fact of our lives.

BANNED for TOS violations.


[ Parent ]
Correction
Not Rich, but Cohen. mea culpa

BANNED for TOS violations.

[ Parent ]
It's not long past due that it's "over."
I guess that's why it isn't.

[ Parent ]
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