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When Love's Not Enough

by: callie

Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 00:35:09 AM EDT


(Callie, thanks for sharing your story. I'm sorry that you've experienced such hurt; sadly you're not alone. - promoted by pam)

Something very personal and hurtful happened this evening.  A good friend came to town for a visit and brought her elderly mother along.  We've known them for nearly 15 years, and her mother has made comments about us being "like her own daughters."  She's always been nice to us and accepting of our relationship.

A little while back our friend told us that her mother said something about hoping we'd have a boy instead of a girl because she was concerned about the influence two lesbians would have on a girl.

Tonight at dinner, somehow the topic of marriage came up and we both commented about going somewhere so we can get married.  The mom (daughter had gone to the bathroom, btw) said "Why would you bother?  It doesn't count here anyway."  We agreed with that, but then she said, "You know I love you, but I don't agree with same sex marriage."  She commented further about how she loves and accepts us and that we are always welcome in her home, then she acted as if she was going to cry.  I couldn't restrain my frustration and said, "All the love in the world won't help us in a court of law."

This got me thinking about those who claim they love us, but do nothing to support us, or at worst make an effort to hurt us.

callie :: When Love's Not Enough
I know that both of them vote Republican.  I would be willing to bet that both of them voted for the marriage amendment when it came up back in their home state.  Even our friend has made comments about how she doesn't see the need for us to marry because she's always thought of us as married.

Both my partner and I talked about this tonight and we truly think they don't realize how deeply their words hurt us.  If after 15 years of knowing us and seeing us live our lives no differently than they do doesn't change their minds and hearts, how can anything do it?  It makes me feel hopeless.

Tomorrow there will be an organization called The Call marching down Church St. in Nashville directly through the gay district to call the nation to redemption and repentance for its sin.  One of those sins includes homosexuality (SURPRISE! Not).  The gay bookstore, Outloud, on Church St. is calling for a peaceful response to the protest by providing water and snacks to the walkers.

The LGBT community has been trying for decades now to rise above those who think less of us.  What has it brought us?  Do we really think that providing water will change hearts and minds of those who think we're evil when simply living, working, and being around those who claim to love us can't?

I sit here typing this, thinking about the events of tonight, and feeling the hurt wash over me while the woman who spoke hurtful words to me and my pregnant partner sleeps in another room, probably thinking little, if at all, about tonight's events.

She'll leave here patting herself on the back for tolerating us and "loving" us, yet by making the comments she has told me that she doesn't think we're as good as her or deserving of the social, cultural, religious, or legal rights she can participate in.  She may "love us" but we're still second class citizens.

My partner asked tonight, "Why do we tolerate people like this in our lives?"  I honestly don't know.  This woman isn't the only person we know who thinks of us this way.  My partner's brother and his wife feel the same way (also big Bush supporters too).  Perhaps it's the same drive that is making our local bookstore hand out water to those who will be preaching about how evil we are.  The desire to be a better and bigger person, perhaps a more Christian person than they are.  Maybe there's a piece of us just glad that those who claim to "love us" do tolerate us and are not a part of the fundamentalist groups that march in the streets against us.

But it doesn't erase the hurt.

UPDATE

Yesterday, while shopping in Target, we all went our separate ways looking around.  Our friend came up to my partner asking if I was okay.  She told her what her mother had said and this really upset our friend.

A few minutes later our friend caught me alone and apologized profusely.  She clarified that she didn't think the same way and that she was completely pissed at her mom.  Her exact words were "You guys get enough shit from the rest of the world, you don't need it from family too."  Apparently, this isn't the first time it's happened because she said that she's told her mom to keep her opinions to herself around her gay friends and that her mom "doesn't know when to shut up."  She even offered to not allow her mom to come back with her on these trips to see us.  In the middle of all of this, she started to cry because she knew the comments hurt and she didn't want to see us hurt.

My temptation was to accept her offer to leave her mom at home for this offense, but considering that we, as GLBT folks, tend to live on hope and kindness, I wouldn't allow that.  If her mom, in spite of her beliefs, would "accept us" in her house, then we could do the same.  Even if my own family, whom I haven't spoken to in over 5 years showed up at my door, I'd let them into my home and be pleasant until they pushed me not to be.  These friends are like family, and thus this hurt as if they ARE family.  They're not mere acquaintances that can be tossed aside so, like with family, we have to either ignore or work through our differences.  We may love our family, but we don't always have to like them.

There's one place where I draw the line and that's with our child.  I told our friend that for her mom to say these things to us was one thing.  We have tougher skins and have dealt with a lot of pain already.  This is just one more to add to the heap.  However, if her mom says one thing in front of our daughter, I will cut her loose, like I've done my own family, and think nothing of it.

What will happen from here I don't know.  I'm sure our friend will give a good talking to to her mom, but I doubt it will make much difference.

My partner and I have kicked around the idea of where her beliefs come from.  We assume, that this woman being an elderly Catholic woman, it has to do with her religious beliefs, yet we find it ironic because she doesn't even attend church anymore.  Our friend even made a comment to me in Target that her mom should know all to well how it hurts to be judged because she was divorced, which we all know doesn't sit well with traditional Catholics.

I doubt I'll ignore her or her beliefs.  If it comes up again, as with anyone else, I'll challenge it.  A religious belief doesn't exempt a person from getting challenged.  Being elderly, set in his/her ways, or simply being hardheaded doesn't exempt one either from challenge.  If she speaks her mind, then she better expect me to speak mine as well.  If she doesn't want to be challenged, she certainly doesn't have to be around us.  This was the same line I took with my own family, so it's good enough for her too.

Eventually, to save me and my partner the endless pain, hurt, and frustration, I did have to cut off my family.  I hope I don't have to do this here.  I'd like to believe that one day she'll change her opinions, but I don't hold much hope.

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Callie
I'm so sorry for your hurting. It must really feel like a betrayal.

I wonder, though, if their concept of marriage extends beyond the warm and fuzzy romantic tradition. For example, your friend's comment that you don't NEED to get married since she already thinks of you as married shows that she is quite oblivious to all the legal aspects of marriage. Her perception of your relationship isn't going to get you health insurance for your wife and your child. It seems that to her and her mother marriage is just a traditional social ceremony that men and women do to show their commitment to each other, and not much beyond that.


I think you're right


[ Parent ]
No chirps from me, love
Callie, I feel for you girl, and I understand your position and just wanted to post my support to you.

I do have my own theories as to why we give water to those who march against us.  We are better than they are.  Plain and simple.  We have suffered through our lives enduring hatred and violence against us, yet we do not (and in my view should not) respond in kind.  Hatred, responding to hatred only garners more hatred.  Love and compassion, responding to hatred does not always garner love, but it does change peoples minds, and yes even their hearts.  We need look no further than the generation yet to come of "age" to see that our outreach and our compassion have truly changed the world.  We will not convince those hard hearted people of our and the previous generations, as their indoctrination to hatred and bigotry is all but cemented.  We will, however change the future, and the future is now.  Look to them and we will, eventually, be free.

You have "known" me now for many years, and must realize how dramatic a difference this stance is (I've never had the heart to wait for my equality and you know this is a true departure).  All of the major changes in our community have taken place in our life time, and while we are not yet where we wish to be, we will, in our lifetime, see the change occur in the general population. 

As we stand up, those who come after us will see with clarity the error of the generations that have come before them and they will right the wrongs of those generations.  Just like previous generations have righted the wrongs of those who came before them.

Continue to love those who will not love you back, or love you back in the way that you wish to be loved.  But try to remember that the older lady has loved you in a way that was not normal or average for those of her generation, and her grandchildren will proceed to the next step.

Please read these lyrics from Dreamgirls Oscar nominated song Patience, and take heart.  This song should indeed be our new anthem, because it is true.

Patience Lyrics

mmmm
yeah yeah
listen
I know you have questions
same ones as me
how long has it been
how long will it be
when will come the morinin
we'll drive the night away
tell me when will come the mornin
of a brighter day
yeah
woah patience
little sister
patience
little brother
patience, patience yeah
take eachother by the hand
yeah yeah
woah
patience
little sisters
little brothers
let us walk together yeah
to the promise land
yeah

Theres a river
to cross
And a mountain to climb
Patience patience
its gonna take some time
yeah

We must walk
in peace
its the only only way yes

If we wanna see that morning
of a brighter day

Patience little sister
Patience little brother
Patience patience
we're gonna find a way

Patience little sisters
Patience little brothers
Until the morn of a brighter day

woah patience till the the brighter day

woah patience till the brighter day

come on come on come on sing it

gotta have some patience

All my love and support to you dear sister. 
Robert

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


Respond in kind
Treat those as you want to be treated?  That's what I plan to do.  If she wants to speak her mind, she can expect to get the same thing back.

[ Parent ]
My thoughts on Patience have a factor in real time
And I guess I should have "shared" my own story, but didn't want to detract from your story and it's importance.

22 years ago, when I came out to my folks they disowned me.  4 months ago i sent word, through my uncle, to my mother that I wanted to talk.  Long back story, involving my lies to cover up who I was way back then and that both my folks were (are) very religous Baptists (head Deacon and Head Deconess of the Church I grew up in) and the fact that we didn't speak for 22 years because of this issue.

Well, that has all changed.  My folks got divorced after a few years of my comming out and both remarried, both still have the convictions of their religion but my mom has taken a new path in our relationship.  She has accepted me for who I am and we are now emailing each other on a regular basis.  And the big payoff for me was a recent small gesture in the form of a house warmming card from my mom.

In the card it said "Dear Robert and Jonathan, Welcome to your new home.  Love- MOM".  I immediatelly called Jon and informed him that he now had another mom in his life, and I guess that my point is that it does take some people longer than others to come to their senses about the whole thing.  I simply realized that when we come out, we change not only our lives, but the lives of all those around us, and sometimes we don't relaize that our comming out forces them to find their own way to come out with us.  Some folks take longer than others.  And also, who are we to expect them to shift a lifetime of beliefs in a single moment, when for some of us it took us so long to come to terms with it ourselves?  Why do we "expect" them to open their arms and recieve us joyously when we couldn't even do it ourselves.  We must have patience.  Some will come around, as the many stories here have shown, and some will not, as my father has not and will probalbly not.  Who are we to say that I will not accept this person in my life because they do not see the world in the same manner that I do?  In exactly the same way or in the time frame I deem reasonable?  We don't think it fair of them to hold their views against us, but are willing to do the same in demanding that they accept us and immediately adapt to exactly what we want.  I, personally, am trying to distance myself between others beliefs, and the laws of our country.  And trying to reconcile the differences between the two, even though they are hard to differentiate.

She also told me that it took her many years to realize that it was unfair of her and my father to put all of their eggs in my basket in regards to their own hopes and dreams.  What I hadn't realized before that point was that it isn't always hate, but some people of a certain generation were never raised to understand or even consider this issue, and that it sometimes takes a long time for them to get it.  The centuries of societal expectations can't always be broken in a short period of time. 

What I didn't fully realize is that my parents had dreams of their own, and my being gay was not something they had ever considered to be a part of that dream.  They were not raised to even consider it a possibility, let alone a real and viable and healthy situation.  We all have dreams and hopes for our lives, and sometimes when life throws you a curve, it takes you longer to realize and adapt to those changes than it does for others.  My mother has even come to the realization that being gay is not a choice, but that it simply is part of who I am.  She stated that now she realizes that no one in their right mind would "choose" to be discriminated against, be subject to violence and loose their families over this.  She realizes that I had no choice in the matter, much like I had no choice to be born a skinny boy with brown hair and brown eyes, but that is just how I was made.

It took women over a hundred years to get the right to vote and be considered equal under the law.  It took longer for people of color to be afforded the same rights as everyone else, and it will take us some more time as well.

And some people can only be brought so far in this battle and no further, as painful as that might be for those of us who love them.  I am in no way advocating for us to not stand up for our rights, but I guess I just see things a little differently now, and relaize that sometimes you can only get so far with some people and no further.  And that hatred can only be battled with love.  It is the only answer we have.  Your new daughters life will be so far more advanced than yours was, simply because you love, without condition, those around you.  She is lucky, in many ways, to be born into this generation, as they will have examples of women like you to look to in understanding that different does not mean bad.  Just remember and realize how far your life experiences have brought your friend and her mother.  Expect set-backs, but don't forget to cherish the progress that you inspired, even when it isn't as much or as far as you had hoped for.

I had a point in there somewhere, I hope that you, having known me this long, and knowing of my fight for our equality, nay, my INSITANCE on our equality can see what it was.


The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY


[ Parent ]
Thanks for sharing,
  My parents had no clue what transgendered was, until I came out.  When I did, I had the mindset that I am still my parents child.  I did understand that my coming out would have an effect on many people.

  Although my parents didn't come around as fast as I wanted (overnight) they eventually did.  My mom now is very understanding of not only transgender, but gay and lesbian issues as well.

  I am saddened when I hear that parents disown thier children when they come out.  I know quite a few that haven't had contact after coming out, so I know I am lucky that my parents and children Love me for who I am.

  I am glad to hear that your mom has decided to open her heart to you and your partner. 

  A very dear friend of mine had contact with her father after 11 years, and it was a wonderful time for them.  We had them over for dinner about a month ago, and her father said it took him along time for many reasons. The one I never thought of, the shame he felt for leaving his child, and wondering if she would forgive him.

  It was interesting to hear him and my mom talk, they shared the Love of sons that we were, and my mom explained the Love she has for me now.

  As you said, it was never in thier plans to have a gay son, as my parents never dreamed of have two daughters, the path for the future of all GLBT is being built now, and for us, it is not being built fast enough.

 

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.


[ Parent ]
I've always heard....
the phrase "talk is cheap", and always related to this very situation. Please know that you are no alone in experiencing what you have. I think every queer person has experienced it to some extent. I know I have. I am so sorry you have. I've tried to relate incidents all too much ike the one you describe to straight friends, and they don't even grasp how it feels.

Another way to phrase what I've always heard is "Money talks and bulls*#t walks." Same concept. You can SAY you love someone, but actions always speak much louder than words. If you fail to show your love by voting against someone's primary civil rights, or by clinging to archaic prejudices, or by supporting religions that hate us......well then you really aren't demonstrating any love, IMO. You're just talking a nice game, and turning around and stabbing us in the back.

I think these people like to entertain some pretty idea of love, but they fail to understand what it really is. They like to pretend to themselves that they are loving and accepting, but deep down they are just lying to themselves, and often times to us as well. That's just sad.

A society without religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.


The story reminded me of a different lyric
Silent Legacy

Your body is alive
But no one told you what you'd feel
The empty aching hours
Trying to conceal
The natural progression
Is the coming of your age
But they cover it with shame
And turn it into rage

You are digging for the answers
Until your fingers bleed
To satisfy the hunger
To satiate the need
They feed you on the guilt
To keep you humble keep you low
Some man and myth they made up
A thousand years ago

Mothers tell your children
Be quick you must be strong
Life is full of wonder
Love is never wrong
Remember how they taught you
How much of it was fear
Refuse to hand it down
The legacy stops here

Oh my child...

~Melissa Etheridge


Sorry, Babe.
I'm thinking good thoughts for you, your wife, and your soon-to-be baby.

Samaritans were the scum of the earth, too.
Jesus' parable of the good Samaritan is appropriate here;  They were hated by the Jews of his time, and so when a lawyer asked Jesus "who is my neighbor", Jesus told the story of the hated Samaritan who was the only one to help a victim on the road to Jerusalem. 

We are hated like the Samaritans.  And like the Samaritan woman at the well, we are willing to give water to the thirsty, because we know what it's like to thirst, and when we see the injured, we stop and help because we know what it's like to  be beaten.

We PWN the moral high ground, honey.

Don't give up hope. 

Be strong.  And a happy, healthy baby to you both!

Edie


Doubt Jesus stopped short
of believing that it's okay to eat with the Samaritans, the lepers, the thieves, but that these people deserve to get treated as less than isn't.  I don't seem to remember Jesus saying anything about keeping those you think less of below you, but don't hesitate to make yourself feel better by socializing with them scum of the earth.

[ Parent ]
When love is not enough
It's called self-righteousness, plain & simple.
Robert and I had the privalege of marrying in Victoria, B.C. in 1994.  We are starting our 14th year together, the most wonderful years of our lives.
We had a reception when we returned home to Las Vegas attended by our closest friends and family. But even these years later, we too are disapointed by comments made by even some of these people who you think wold know better because of the relationships they have with us.
Robert & I are learning to let it go in one ear and out the other as hard as it is.
You know something, though?  We wouldn't trade places with any of them. Many of them have seen only divorce and heartbreak.  We wish for them the same happiness that Robert and I share with each other...and know that a new progressive generation is comming.  I know it, and we helped pioneer for it!!

Self-righteousness...good way to put it
Yeah, by saying that she doesn't think us marrying is right then she's saying that we're not good enough to participate in the same cultural rituals she has.  In other words, she's better than us because she didn't mind having a penis in her vagina.  That's crude, but about as simple as it gets.

[ Parent ]
A Personal Story worthy of writing into Dear Abby / Ann Landers
If published, it would open many folks eyes & hearts to the cause of legal recognition of Same Sex Relationships.

Callie, I'm sorry this woman's words went right to your heart. She's likely is not aware that her words came across as being cold and condescending. Legal recognition of Same Sex relationships is important, vital to the well being of both parties and to protection of children that can come into that relationship, thus making a full fledged family.

I myself, am in a 14 yo relationship, while not totally perfect, it works for both of us. When I first meet him, I also met several members of his family including paternal grandmother, a woman I felt I had know an eternity and likewise she said that same thing to me. My guy's parents were deceased when I met him. Our families have been neutral on our relationship, sorta like DADT. I felt a connection with someone that I have never had before. We are committed, loyal, predictable and I don't want or see an end to it. It?s like having yoru favorite meal everyday and not getting tired of it. We've missed out on being parents, both of us are 4X and not so tolerant & patient enough in life to become dads.

On Marriage or Full Legal recognition of our relationship, I used to sit on the fence about it, but now fully want it. I want him protected should I die before he does, he deserves every penny of my social security and rights to inheritance. 

General Accounting Office has counted 1,138 Federal statutory provisions related to marriage
http://www.cbo.gov/f...
http://en.wikipedia....
http://www.gao.gov/n...
We are all missing out and I?m pissed.


I doubt she was aware either, Roger.
Like I said, I doubt she's thought about it since.  Then again, she may have by now because her daughter probably gave her a good talking to about this.  I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.

[ Parent ]
I (we) personally don't want a marriage with my partner of 5 years
But I do want the EQUALITY, that if I did want a marriage, it'd be MY CHOICE.

I see zero reason to celebrate States granting civil unions, unless civil unions is what ALL couples had to provide them government recognition of benefits (at ALL levels of government.) Otherwise civil unions are just seperate and unequal status of queers codified in laws. No better than riding in the back of buses, or seperate drinking fountains.


Choice
Yep, that's exactly what my partner said this morning to me when we AGAIN talked about this!!!

The mom has a lot of nerve to be judging considering she's a divorced Catholic woman who no longer goes to church, but she had a CHOICE to be married and a CHOICE to get divorced.  We have neither.  They've taken our choice from us.  She doesn't know what it's like to have no options.


[ Parent ]
Very powerful post
Thank you for sharing such a deep personal insult, of which we all have examples.

"If after 15 years of knowing us and seeing us live our lives no differently than they do doesn't change their minds and hearts, how can anything do it?  It makes me feel hopeless."

They won't change because they are under the influence of GOP puppet masters like Rush and Savage. That is what the Republican Party has become of the last 15 years.

Thomas Paine in "Common Sense" directly addresses appeasement groups like Log Cabin:

"Interested men who are not to be trusted, weak men who cannot see, prejudiced men who will not see, and a certain set of moderate men who think better of the Eropean world than it deserves: and this last class, by an ill-judged deliberation, will be the cause of more calamities to this continent than all the other three."

"If you have not (suffered injustice), then are you not a judge of those who have. But if you have, and can still shake hands with the murderers, then are you unworthy the name of husband, father, friend, or lover, and whatever may be your rank or title in life, you have the heart of a coward, and the spirit of a sycophant."

"To talk of friendship with those in whom our reason forbids us to have faith, and our affections wounded through a thousand pores instruct us to detest, is madness and folly."


This is the crux of the matter
"They won't change because they are under the influence of GOP puppet masters like Rush and Savage. That is what the Republican Party has become of the last 15 years."

Yes.  Nearly 50% of the American people have voted against their economic interest - TWICE - believing they have voted *for* their economic interest.  Some 40% of Americans STILL BELIEVE that Saddam Hussein was personally responsible for 911.

Fear is a powerful motivator.  The GOP is busy telling good, salt of the earth folk, that gay marriage will be the end of civilization as we know it.  And they believe out of fear. 


[ Parent ]
Fear
We wondered if her mom's motivation wasn't fear of some kind.  Being a Catholic, does she fear that a bunch of gay folks are going to come knocking on her church door demanding to be married?  Does she think that she'll no longer be able to hold her personal beliefs if our legal rights are acknowledged?  Does she think that she'll never be allowed again to say that she thinks it's wrong for us to marry?

I wouldn't be surprised if she does.


[ Parent ]
I don't believe it is 'fear', but instead 'hate'
I believe what motivates these people is hate. Even a group of schoolkids if left to their own devices will choose scapegoats and hound them mercilessly to build themselves up. The common social decencies in our society have been lost due to everyday life being emmersed in a hatefest prompted by the likes of FoxNews, Hannity, Savage, Limbaugh, and all their millions of clones across the country.

Hate sells, especially to the angry white male. If people are struggling in their lives and see on the news that the 'dirty haji' is embarrassing them in Iraq, it uplifts their spirit in a wierd way to hear Bush tout the Marriage Amendment or hear their local Rush clone rail against the goddamned homosexual agenda. Why do you think people like to see car crashes? It gives them a little relief from the daily grind if they know someone else is being beaten down just a little more.

Were the Germans genetically predisposed to facilitate and empower the Nazis? Of course not. They went along because of pandering to the basest instincts of human nature. That is what's operating here. It isn't going to change until we dominate with our own campaigns. If our whole country and Armed Forces Radio were blanketed with Rachel Maddow, Sam Seder, and Mike Malloy on the radio 24/7, I guarantee things would be quite different. It's all about propaganda and brainwashing. Right now, they are winning.


[ Parent ]
Hate/Fear=Chicken/Egg
It's amazing how hate and fear are intertwined.  The word "homophobia" is literally translated as same-(sex) fear.  Clinicaly translated, it means "unreasonable fear of homosexuality".  I personally think hatred grows as a response to fear, a way of coping with fear.  If you fear something, destroy it, and to destroy something often takes hatred.  Start hating something, and it makes it easier to destroy. 

Ask a homophobe why he fears gays, and he will protest that he isn't afraid of no damn faggots.  Fear has become culturally synonymous with weakness.  Weakness, in turn, is equated (often enough) with being gay.  Being fearless is strong in our culture.  It's more acceptable to simply hate something and to destroy it than to confront and overcome fear. 

Fear of homosexuallity is manufactured, there is no reason to fear gays.  Lies have been fabricated to inspire fear, and fear feeds the lies. 

The question is, how do we counter the lies?



[ Parent ]
How is Log Cabin an appeasement group? Serious question, really.
SanRafaelKid,

I'll admit to abysmal ignorance of the Log Cabin party, beyond it being a Gay Republican group.  To my mind, it is an oxymoron.  In all seriousness, without being disengenius, I honestly don't know what makes them an appeasement group.  Would you kindly provide me with some examples so I can get up to speed? 

I'm really not asking in order to argue *for* Log Cabin.  I will respectfully argue with you if your examples are faulty, though. 

Thank you!
Edie


[ Parent ]
Of course Log Cabin are appeasers
Log Cabin has for two decades claimed of making tremendous progress from "within" the trenches of the GOP. Have you looked at the official GOP platform? Did you see the remarks of 100% of the GOP candidates at their debate? The damage that Log Cabin has done to gay civil rights is extraordinary. You've probably forgotten something called 'The Unity Coalition' and 'The Austin 12' because they were front groups. They claimed to have made an incredible impact on the Bush Administration. How long did it take to realize these were all lies? Using the logic of Log Cabin in referring to themselves as heroes courageously battling for acceptance from within an intolerant Party, gays and lesbians who financially support and campaign for the American Nazi Party are the ultimate noble soldiers because they dare to "fight from within".

[ Parent ]
Thanks for the info.
Can't say I've forgotten the Unity Coalition or the Austin 12--I've never heard of either.  Again, I admit to ignorance here.  Log Cabin has been on the fringe of my radar, and I haven't been paying attention.  I'm trying to rectify that now. 

I'd have to agree with you that the GOP has not become any less anti-gay in the time I've been paying attention.  I'd say the Log Cabin folks are ineffective. 

And yes, if they are providing financial support to the GOP, they are enabling oppression of the LGBT community.  That counts as damage in my book. 

Now, I'm off to google Unity Coaltion and Austin 12.  Thanks for the info.

Edie


[ Parent ]
I never met Log Cabin Repig queers til I moved to Louisiana
I guess they probably had a LCR table at Twin Cities LGBT Pride but I would ignore them, (Mpls. was my home for 50 years.) Then some A-queen friends toured my lover and I around to various parties in New Orleans one night...there were several Log Cabin men at those....ick!
The Democrats, (or what passes as liberal down in LA,) is so twisted and mutated I hardly recognise it. They are ALL Pro-Life, many are racists, and some SERIOUS closet cases.
There are days I SO MISS MINNEAPOLIS, then I remember the winters there...yikes! I may have to visit Mpls. more often during the summer and Autumn in the coming years.

[ Parent ]
Anti-choice is NOT pro-life
Pet peeve here - we aid the right wing by using their charged language.

Many of them also claim to be for equal rights - they just are against "special" rights for gay people.  They are  "pro-family" - but two committed gay people are not a family, instead they are a mortal danger to "real" families.

The radical right has co-opted "pro-life" to now be common usage for banning abortion.  More properly the term probably should also include opposition to the death penalty, opposition to war (except perhaps only as a defensive measure), aggressively fighting disease, hunger, and poverty,  etc.  The right uses the term exclusively for anti-abortion though for their political advantage.  We assist them each time we use it.

I believe language matters, and progressives would help themselves by using it correctly and not allowing the right wing to frame each debate.  /rant

Back to the topic of this thread, likewise I think it is important for us to use the word "marriage" for our permanently committed relationships.  Marriage does not have a monolithic meaning - it can be used in a religious way, societal way, or a civil way.  The common thread of all meanings though is the permanent loving life commitment.  We will not have equal standing in society until our relationships are given the respect of the term marriage. 

We will not have equal legal standing until the state also recognizes our marriages.  We have to fight for both the legal and societal acceptance.  Regarding religious marriage - each church can fight that out, just as they have inter-racial marriage.


[ Parent ]
Twin Cities
Mary Richards almost inspired me to move to Minnesota back when I was young and trying to find direction in life.  Actually the first gay bar I ever entered was in Minneapolis.  Wasn't very happening at 4 in the afternoon, but I didn't have experience in ANY bar at that point.  My MN career only lasted about a week.

A few months later I was drifting through LA, just having read the book by former NFL-player Dave Kopay.  He mentioned a disco named Studio One.  I went there, but it turns out it also was not very happening at 7 PM.

Eventually I got the hang of things.


[ Parent ]
This is the underlying problem
"Its not necessary for you and that black man to get married dear -- we love you anyways."

"You don't need to marry that boy just because you love him -- keep him as a lover and go through with our arranged marriage for you."

Flat out, the people are being tolerant towards the two of you personally.

They are, however, still intolerant. Still subject to bigotry and prejudice, and now you see it, now you feel it.

What they don't understand is that by denying you the right to marry, they are stopping you from doing so.

They are saying that they don't think that your family is such -- no matter what they might say to your face.

They do not actually see kinship.  And without Kinship, *anything* that is done -- any civil union or domestic partnership or similar lie -- is little more than a bandaid -- something to make *them* feel better.

Not us.

yes, us.  I might not be gay, but as far as the law is concerned, in some place, I'll never be able to marry a man.

In a lot, I'll never be able to adopt children.

Kinship.

Anything else is, in the end, about money. I'll grant its importance, but Kinship is what marriage creates.

And anyone -- anyone -- who is against two (or more) people engaging in the civil act of marriage is, by definition, against family.

Because a family is created by kinship.

They are friendly -- and, I'm very sorry to hear this, because it also tells me that they are not your friends.

http://www.dyssonance.com  Breaking all the rules...


The family you make
Interesting because these friends call us family, but by law we're not kin.  They would have no more legal rights to us, our home, our children, our anything than my partner and I have to each other.  Calling ourselves family doesn't not make us so in the eyes of the law, and when the rubber hits the road, the law is all that really matters.

[ Parent ]
Killing them with kindness,
  An old saying, that sometimes has no effect on others, but we still try.  I admit that there are times I would love to let a Louisville Slugger do some talking, but actually doing that I find I am not capable, because that is not who I am.  I came out as TS 2 1/2 years ago, and the first few months was hell for me dealing with my family. In the very begining, My oldest daughter (13 at the time) was the first to ask me to tell her honestly what I was going through as she had caught me cross-dressing a few times.  So I calmly sat down with her and we talked.  She asked why am I wanting to be a woman? Why are you doing this now? Are you going to ask how I feel? What about my sister (9 at the time) and how she is going to feel?  What about Mom (my wife at the time)?  What about your Mom and Dad?  What about my friends, and what they will think?  What about your sister and brother-in-law?

  All of these questions I had in my head for quite awhile, and was always thinking of the answers. Doing research on all the possible questions so I would have answers.

  It was March 14,2007, about 6:00pm, and we sat down at the breakfast bar. We both grabbed a box of tissues, she had a Pepsi, and I had a beer.  My daughter started,"Dad, why are you dressing like a woman, with your nails polished and such?"  As calm as I could, I explained transition to her, the hormones, what will happen to me from taking them, and still explaining I am going to be the same loving person in the body I am supposed to have.

  She was hurt, angry, and in disbelief. after about an hour, she went over to my mom's house.  It was at that point, I thought I was going to lose my family. I went and started typing notes into my diary on my computer.  30 minutes after my daughter went to my mom's house, I got an email from my mom on the dos and don'ts of cross-dressing.
I replied with links about MtF transition.  15 minutes later my mom was there with my daughter, both in tears.  I knew I would hurt them, but I didn't want to.  The three of us sat on the couch, crying for various reasons, as we discussed me and transition.  My mom spent about 30 minutes and than went home.  She did research on her puter at home, and returned with more info, mostly negetive things about transition.  We talked for 5 hours, kissed and hugged each other, and then she went home, and I sat up all night crying.

  The next day, I took my oldest daughter to my therapists office, and Dr. Sult did a wonderful job on explaining transition to her.  On the ride home, she and I talked a bit, and she understood what I was going through, but wasn't happy about it, she felt like she was losing her dad.  When we got home, my mom came over with what she called, "the silver bullet" She began show me pages of different ways to deal with being trans, and how to cure it. She schedualed differet Doctors for me to go see and talk to, anything to "cure" me.  I referred to this as hell week, and it was.  I made it through hell week, and with meeting one of the Doctors mom wanted me to see, he said I was Gender Dysphoric, which made two psychologists say that.

  So I continued with my transition, and it was tough, because any progress I made, made my mom and daughter feel worse, as they felt they were losing me, a son and a dad.
My youngest (9 at the time) seemed to be ok with it, as the details were not alot, just that I would always be a loving parent.  My wife didn't want anything to do with me and moved out leaving me and the kids behind. Alot of hurt and guilt I had, and alot of hurt and anger from the rest of the family.

  My mom didn't tell my father, my sister or brother-in-law for another month. during that time I found a support group chat site, and I was making real progress, went fulltime 24/7 in three weeks after coming out.  I would celebrate as I was on my way to being complete, and my family was down and depressed wondering how to stop me.

  In June I started HRT, and filled out all the forms to set a court date for my legal name change.  I was on top of the world, but watching my parents and kids falling apart, and that got me down.  My oldest came up to me and asked me to talk.  She asked her questions about her feelings and if mine for her was changing? after 40 to 45 minutes, she told me she gets it, understands, and at that point became my first family supporter.  A week later, my mom and my youngest also became supporters, although my mom was still hoping for the "silver bullet".  My dad kept his doubts, not letting me dress or wear nail polish in his house.  My sister and brother-in-law were nowhere to be found.  In mid July, I moved another TG friend from Colorado to Florida, so we could go through transition together.

  On Aug. 3, 2005, my name was legally changed, and my mom gave up on the silver bullet, and Angie became part of the family.  On aug 9,2005, I was served with divorce papers from my X, she wanted everything, the kids, house and cars, and me and Angie out of the house.  So along came the court hearing on Sept. 12,2005.  On Sept. 19, 2005, I won custody of my daughters.  But, I had to dress outwardly male around my children, and my transition partner could not be near my daughters.  It was great I had my daughters, but dressing as a man violated the HBSOC (Harry Bengermin Standards of Care) as I was living the RLT. and my transition partner had to leave town.

  (Alot of joy, anger, pain, and hurt)

  I was allowed to file objections to the ruling, which I did, but the court wouldn't schedual them for 2 1/2 months.

  We searched for help from everygroup we could think of, and NCLR helped a bit.  But a psychologist a friend told me to get intouch with, had a plan.  As I was also ordered by the court to seek out a psychologist and follow thru on her recomendations.  Which I did, I met with her for a week of evaluations, she recommended SRS ASAP, we got passports in 48 hours, booked flights, and off to Thailand for SRS.  SRS was done Oct. 12, 2005. and returned to Florida on Nov. 4th, with a signed and notorized statement from the Dept. of State, I am now Female. When I returned home, my family was fully supportive, minus my sister and brother-in-law. (I meantion this for a reason)

  On November 14, 2005, The court got to hear the excertions filed, With me being Female, the court could not force me to dress outwardly male, I did as the court asked, seeked psychological help and followed through as the judge ordered, The court now faced divorcing two Females, but sadly, my transition partner had to go away.

  (more joy and hurt and pain)

  My father didn't think I would go under the knife, he thought I would back out in the last minute.  When I called him from Thailand to tell my family I made it through and doing ok, His first words," I am proud to have a daughter that is finally happy, and I love you with all of my heart."  Sadly, my newest best supporter died in my arms on Dec. 23, 2005.  But he died loving me for who I am.

  My court battles are still going on this day, and have been hell on the rest of us in my family.  My sister and brother-in-law broke a bit of ground talking to me when my father past.  But we are still distant, and it makes it hard on a family.

  I plan on sharing your post here with my sister and brother-in-law, for the reason of showing how we are treated like second class citizens by family members, and it causes an unneeded divide that should be mended, before it is too late.

  I am sorry to hear that you are hurt, and my family and I wish you the best on your new baby, and hope you can find happiness with your whole family.

  Love and Huggs, to you and your partner, and the soon new addition to your family.



If I make sense? it was quite by accident.


Brave person
Glad that your father showed his love to you before he passed away.  Thanks for telling your story.  Sorry your wife took your transition as a personal insult and showed no compassion.  I have known couples who stayed together after the operation and are very happy.

Make alot of noise. Life is short.

[ Parent ]
See, we have hope.
We keep trying because we have hope.  We keep trying because we want to believe there can be a happy ending like you had with your father.  Your struggle with your family isn't over, but the small victories get us through.

Thanks for sharing this with me.


[ Parent ]
Nashville is the problem
I lived for years in the mountains of North Carolina, a Southern Baptist mindset very similar to Tenneesee.  Tenneesee is the headquarters of the SB.  There was a move not to let us in the front door of the churches in North Carolina.  Don't know what happened to that.
Even if your friends are not church folk, their thinking is colored by the newspapers, neighbors, GOP social circle that they move in.  They get this through osmosis just by living in an area that revovles around "jesus saves". Even the glbt community where I lived were ambivalent about same-sex marriage, especially gay promiscous singles.  They just didn't know why we were making such a fuss.  Many didn't understand the issue.  It began to have a negative psychological effect on my partner and I after 23 years of living around conservative nonsense.  We moved to California and are now very happy in a supportive environment.

Make alot of noise. Life is short.

Problem is everywhere
It's not just Nashville.  I'm from Alabama, my partner was born in FL but moved to Mississippi when she was a child, and these two friends are from New Orleans.  Yes, all in the south and yes, all very backwards.

As I've said many times before here, Southerners will never change their minds (actually, they won't change their minds, just behaviors) until the law forces them to do so.


[ Parent ]
WHEW! I thought maybe it was just me who thought that
Coming from Progressive Minneapolis, (and the biggest gay ghetto of Minneapolis)....moving to rural Louisiana was a CULTURE SHOCK!

[ Parent ]
So sorry
Really, really sorry, Callie.  Your experience rings all too familiar.  At times I share in your hopelessness because we want to believe that to know us is to care about us, and to care about us is to empathize with us, and to empathize with us is to champion us.  But of course people are limited in their capacity to know, to care, to empathize and to champion.  They have to overcome religious indoctrination, other forms of cultural and political indoctrination, the limited empathy they have been shown, fear of change, limited intellects, etc.  There is a sense in which their limitations have nothing to do with you, are far less personal than they feel. 

Ultimately my hopelessness does not endure because of all that others here have said about the younger generation (and also what is happening around the world).  We ARE getting through.  It's just that you can only get through a little to those that are most limited and have the most conditioning and the most limitations to overcome.  Unfortunately, sometimes those are the people to whom we are most attached and from whom we most long for or expect acceptance.  Lower your expectations of individuals, but have the highest of hopes for the country as a whole, and you will not be disappointed.  Of that I am certain. 

As to how to deal with these people in particular, that is a vexing issue, as the variety of responses here attests.  I would privately detach yourself from them emotionally (achieved by recognizing their capacity to hurt you badly and their marked limitations), and maintain contact only if you wish.  If you do maintain contact, be constantly mindful of their limitations so you never again get your hopes up.  Try to educate them if you wish, but ONLY if you will not be crushed if the teaching doesn't take.  Treat them well, don't be afraid to express your feelings and your position and why their actions cause you pain, don't be afraid to cease communication if you need to for your own self-protection, and remember always how many loving, evolved, intelligent, beautiful people are passionately on your side. Ultimately, love and justice will triumph. 


Lower expectations
Neither of us were shocked that she believed this.  I mean she is elderly and Catholic, but hope does spring eternal, so we hoped for more from her.

My honest expectation was that she would have just kept her hurtful opinions to herself.  It's not enough that they're cutting off our rights state after state after state, but they find it necessary to hurt us with their words too.


[ Parent ]
I understand
Yes.  I understand.  It's as if she thought she'd be remiss or unprincipled if she didn't chastise you or make her private views known. 

I, too, have had an acquaintance chastise me, and it was a punch in the gut.  Certain indoctrinees (is that a word?) are so convinced they occupy the moral high ground that they feel duty-bound not to live and let live.  And all they accomplish is driving a wedge between themselves and others.  How Christ-like.  The one I've dealt with is self-congratulatory about treating me normally in between episodes of making her disapproval obvious.  Sometimes I have fun rehearsing witty comebacks, but I never actually use them.


[ Parent ]
Why Are You Hurt?
I don't expect anyone to support SSM. Many of us Gays and Lesbians still have strong doubts about it.

It's hurtful
Because our friends and family are not recognizing that we are not full equal American citizens under the law.  Marriage is based on love, not one man one woman.  You may not be for SSM but the fact is that if we  don't fight for the same rights as other citizens are automatically granted through marriage, then we are still in the closet, and that is unhealthy.  Civil Unions only give us state rights, and there are only a handful of blue states that do that.  We deserve 100% Federal rights.  It's not about "sanctity" of marriage.  Sanctity is a religious term, like the Pope swinging the incense pot to get the evil spirits to leave.

Make alot of noise. Life is short.

[ Parent ]
This isn't about the gay and lesbian community
This is about our friends.  If someone is going to be my friend, and I have explained to them our legal status (or lack there of) and our need for those thousandsome legal rights bestowed by marriage, then they better put up or shut up.  And if I catch them deliberately voting against me, they are not gonna be speaking to me any more.  I have an expectation that my friends will support me 100% on this, or they wont be my friends.  Family is harder but the same rules apply.  The gays and lesbians who are ambivalent about marriage are not relevant here.  To be a real friend to me, you have to support equal marriage rights, because I will not tolerate "friends" who claim to love me but who work against my best interest.

[ Parent ]
There's an old southern saying, Holly.
"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Or better yet, go by my new bumper sticker:

"Why can't closed minds also have closed mouths?"


[ Parent ]
Are you really that callous?
Are you really that callous?  You seem to be arguing against same-sex marriage, or possibly against any sort of marriage.  I can respect that, but this post really isn't the place to do it.  You basically just threw sand in an open wound. 



[ Parent ]
Your story really hits home......
Callie:

I was so very touched by your story and can really empathise with the hurt and anger.  My ex comes from a very conservative Catholic family.  His sister is a lesbian and in a committed relationship for some 25 years now.  On the surface Marge and her partner are accepted by his family.  On the surface Mark and I are accepted by his family.  I say on the surface because I know that while they were cordial to our faces, they turned around and voted their conservative Catholic bias when given the chance.  Marge and Cathy and their adopted daughers (Marge has no legal right to either child) have NONE of the protections of marriage yet their family voted for Amendment One in Virginia this last election.  How two faced can you be?

If I may relate a more personal experience with this family's homophobia, last October Mark and I went away for the weekend to a Gay B&B in WVA.  We had a wonderful time.  On the way back Mark had a siezure in the car miles from the nearest Hospital.  We had no cell coverage.  I finally made it to a major highway and called 911.  Picture two queers on the side of the highway in deepest Virginia, one of whom is having a major physical event.  To my surprise the rescue people were absolutely and totally professional in spite of the fact that we were gay (lots of rainbow colors evident in case you are wondering).  Anyway they take Mark to the hospital and on the way I am frantically trying to reach his family so that they can authorize medical treatment.  Under current law, I HAVE ZERO right to do this.  I finally reached Mark's older sister and identified myself and gave her a run down of the situation.  She didn't even know who I was.  I literally had to repeat my name and relationship to her brother a half dozen times to force her to remember that I was Mark's partner.  Now, I have been in this woman's house.  I have been to her kid's baseball games.  I have talked to her one on one many many times.  I have to admit I was crushed.  In my opinion, their homophobia is so ingrained that they cannot even acknowledge that I exist.  Face to face they have to acknowledge me.  Later when I related this to Mark, he kind of shrugged and basically said nothing.  He never approached his sister about this.  There are other examples of this with Mark and his family.  In short, it strikes me that his refusal to stand up to this behavior and to let his family know that it was unacceptible amounts to a good deal of internalized homophobia.  He'd rather say nothing and "get along" with these people.  Mark and I are no longer together, but I can tell you that his attitude and his acceptance of his family's behavior did not help us or our relationship one bit.

Callie, I really feel for you.  Please know that there are many people out here that identify with your pain and wish above all that someday you and others like us will have the ability to marry and to experience all of the rights and responsibilities that comes with that.  Peace to you and your wife and best wishes to your baby.


That was shitty!
What a crappy way for his sister to act?!  I won't even get into his own acquiesence to their bigotry.  I've been in relationships like that before and I understand getting out for your own sake.

I think you're right though.  It's like you're invisible, there but not really seen.  They set a place for you at the table and they nod at your comments.  They even look your way when you talk, but they probably wouldn't recognize you on the street if you passed each other.


[ Parent ]
I guess I am not alone....
in the level of alienation I experienced trying to get along with Mark's family.  I am not sure why I would ever think that what I experienced was unique.

Thanks again for your post.


[ Parent ]
Is Conditional Love Ever Enough?
Callie, your post reminds me of an old saying.  I can't remember it it has been attributed to an author.

"Everything before the 'but' is bullshit."


Yeah, also...

There's also that one about "Assholes are like opinions...everybody's got one." Considering both belonging to this old woman's stink to high heaven.

Sorry she hurt you, Callie. You should let her know she did by baking her something special like a white sheet cake with red Fuck You, Too! icing or a Visine-filled vanilla torte or how about inviting her to a candle-lit dinner of questionable origin oysters on the half shell. I mean, if she really feels you're both her daughters, then get back at her in the most familial way possible: Revenge. It's the best.

I suggest you just have a bitter cocktail like Campari and soda. Goes best. 



Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

[ Parent ]
I thought it went...
"Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one."  Ironically, that's exactly what our friend said about her mom when she said her mom couldn't seem to shut up.

BTW, I'm not the revenge type.  I'm more the coldly distant type.  It's that wonderful passive aggressive bullshit my mother taught me.  Emotional detachment is a great way to get through painful situations.


[ Parent ]
That sounds good, too...
What did I say? Sure, either way...as long as both are accounted for, and I look smart and insightful...that's what I always say! You could try channeling your passive/aggressive-ness into something vindictive if you try hard enough--OR you just befriend me, and I'll be happy to handle all your revenge needs. It's a hobby of mine.

Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

[ Parent ]
ok TJ that was snarky, but funny as hell. Thanks for the giggle


[ Parent ]
La Torte Vanil avec Visine
I'll have to post the recipe on my new blog after I bake one for a disgusting person I know. Callie, congrats on your new breakthrough @ Target...hopefully that'll that do the trick, but I still have a bottle of Tabasco that's just itching to be spread on a steering wheel. Just because they're family doesn't mean you can't irritate the hell out of them.

Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

[ Parent ]
Love that quote
I'll have to remember that one.  In fact, that's exactly how her comment went "You know I love you, but..."

I'll have to remember that quote in case she tries that again. :)


[ Parent ]
People do what they can get away with
I raised the bar on my family and friends and stopped letting them define what love is. 

My mom had always been supportive.  My dad acted like he was, but when an amendment in Arkansas appeared on the ballot he shared with me that he planned to vote for it.  I was floored.  This man had stood up with us during our commitment ceremony.  He shared this over dinner when I was visting them.  In the past I would have just gotten sad, but after trying to reason and getting nowhere I finally just said how disappointed I was that my own father was comfortable with his daughter having more rights and protections than his son. 

I went to bed and told my mom the next morning that I would be leaving early as a result of the conversation and that I didn't know if I would be coming back, and that while I would always love them John (my partner) and I had made a commitment not to invest a lot of time in relationships with people who don't see us as equals.  Long story short, after flinging some bulls**t about how he felt like I was being intolerant of his view and about how I was free to marry--a woman, which I completely ignored, I gave him a hug and left. 

It wasn't long before I got an apology and an admission that he voted against the amendment.  And eventually he helped me research the tax disadvantages facing couples like us for a photography exhibition I curated of long-term commited same-sex couples.  He gets it now, but I doubt he would have if I hadn't held his feet to the fire.  For me, loving him meant that I had to expect more from him than what he thought he was capable of giving. 

Callie, this is your business, but I wonder how healthy it is for us to raise our children around people who think of us as second-class citizens.  That osmosis thing is pretty real. 


Nice post, Troy.
You conducted yourself with aplomb and grace.

Like Troy suggested, I tend to avoid folks who didn't embrace me.  Life is short and we are permeable.


[ Parent ]
great quotes in this thread!
"Life is short and we are permeable".

"Everything before the "but..." is bullshit".

"Opinions are like assholes--everybody has one, and they all stink".

Makes me want to get out my graph paper and colored pencils and make up some cross stitch samplers. 

Edie
Yes, I'm serious!


[ Parent ]
Country Music
Ever hear a country music song or so called "artist" sing about same-sex relations recorded in Nashville.  No?  They are a very homophobic shit kicking crowd catering to the same IMHO.  I agree with Troy about raising children around those people.

Make alot of noise. Life is short.

[ Parent ]
Yes, as a matter of fact, "THE RIVER"
By Garth Brooks, albeit not entirely about gay relationships but for acceptance of them and everything else that makes a person different than the expected "norm".  And there are country artists on our side.  Garth Brooks, Trisha Yearwood, Clint Black, Faith Hill, and the ever so popular Dixie Chicks.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
Awesome, Troy
Thanks very much for your comment, Troy. It actually really helped crystallize a number of things for me in the way I handle people uncomfortable with my interracial marriage.
I do believe that Gandhism has been quite detrimental to the liberal community. I see shades of this self-flagellating masochism in other liberal movements as well. Callie, I have a lot of sympathy and feel sad at how badly you were betrayed. But the fact is that, trying to be better than them and turning the other cheek and all that, doesn't work. It's not about being a martyr and deriving a smugness and a self-satisfaction from looking at one's wounds and seeing how much crap one has taken. It's about Troy's way. It's about being firm and assertive and pointing it out when people are unreasonable. Troy, could you talk more about what made you feel entitled to stand up for your rights around your family and not be afraid to be seen as intolerant? I would love to hear more about what brought you to the place where you feel comfortable enough with your gay identity that you expect and demand others to treat you with the same respect that you treat yourself.
This is the very first time I've come across a liberal person who knows how to fight for his/her rights in an effective way.

[ Parent ]
A tad presumptuous
First, SCH, read my update above.

Second, don't presume I don't stand up for myself or my family.  Taking the moral high ground doesn't make one a stepping stone for bigotry.

This woman will be challenged.  She will be welcome in our home, but she will be challenged.  She certainly won't be allowed to talk to our daughter the way she talked to us.

SCH, I've cut off my own family because of their bigotry.  I gave them years to get over it, but nothing worked so I ended it.  Don't think for a minute that I don't have what it takes to do the same here.


[ Parent ]
Standing Up for Rights
Callie, I hope you don't think I was criticizing your response.  I loved your post.  I think how I do this differs based on the relationship and the person I'm working with.  I heard once that later in their careers Malcolm X considered becoming more like MLK and vice-versa.  Don't know if this is true, but I probably need to be both at different times. 

To answer SinChapelHil's question about what made me feel entitled to stand up for my rights, probably therapy when I was single, and believe it or not, my time in ex-gay ministry (long story). My dad's family can be pretty self-centered, unempathetic and angry, so I had to deal with that, including where I found those traits in my own life.

Plus early in our relationship John and I talked about a baseline of acceptable behavior with regard to this issue for people we would be close to since they would be a part of both of our lives.  When we committed to each other, we commited to help support and nurture each other, and handling our family's quirks was part of that deal.  I love him, and he comes before my family, even my parents. That is how my parents taught me to love.

Not that we don't talk (or work daily with) people with whom we don't agree, but personal relationships are a choice.  If we hit a snag there, I try to mirror back by paraphrasing or restating an offensive stated ideal or value back to them, "so if I'm hearing you right, you're telling me you believe...  Is that correct?  Well, here's how that affects us...  And here are the consequences of your belief on our relationship and the options as we see them."  Then I stop.  For better or worse, I've learned to put that ball in the other court and leave it. 

Ironically, I get my assertiveness from my dad. 

That's just a way that works for me and my personality.  It probably takes all kinds of approaches that are dependent on a number of variables (external support, age, level of dependency, etc.).


[ Parent ]
Interesting post
Thanks for your reply, Troy. This whole thread has been very interesting for me. I've noticed something different in the way you, in particular, talk about being picked on. You don't seem to feel quite as helpless and overwhelmed and abandoned in the face of oppression, as many others, including I myself, do. And that seems to give you great clarity about how you should respond to harassment and intimidation, as well as when, and whether to respond at all. I'm sorry to pick your brains again but I'm curious about why and how you don't seem to feel totally overwhelmed and utterly vulnerable in the face of homophobia. Does it come from your upbringing? Do you entitle yourself to not worrying too much about social approval from being male? (I'm guessing from your name) Did your parents give you a lot of approval as a kid, and so do you feel like you don't have to work quite so hard for it from others? I don't mean to be intrusive. I'm really fascinated with people who don't feel completely overwhelmed and vulnerable when they encounter jerks.

[ Parent ]
Probably sounds silly
but my faith (moderate Southern Baptist, that probably had more to do with the people than the doctrine) and mom's side of the family sort of raised me to love all the time.  Not in a "please roll-over me" or a fake "I love you, but..." way, but in a boundaries, respect, open communication and seek mutual good sort of way. My dad did teach me to stand up for myself though his motivation seemed rooted in a fear of failure or being wrong.

Took me awhile (and some decent therapy) to learn what good boundaries and respect for and communication with myself looked like.  But growing up I was surrounded by a lot of that kind of love. Being willing to admit I'm wrong and hanging around healthy people when I need to helps, too.

Reading what I wrote just now makes me sound probably more loving than I am on a daily basis (and kind of self-righteous). We're all trying to figure it out I guess.  Also, I don't get too hopeless because deep down I know that time is on our side.  We're right and we will win.  I'm just trying to get as many people on the winning team as possible. 


[ Parent ]
Thanks again, Troy!
Thanks for another illuminating reply, Troy.
Yeah, based on my personal observations of people who are not a member of the ruling status quo by virtue of race, gender, sexual orientation, national origin, disability, age, physical illness, mental illness...et al, there is a distinct difference between the people who received some form of love and acceptance during childhood, and those that didn't. People who have experienced childhood abandonment and rejection seem to have it the hardest when dealing with other people rejecting them in adulthood. There is a huge difference in the way gay people like yourself even yhink about homophobia, and the way a gay/lesbian who was the family outcast from childhood would handle the same degree of homophobia. I've observed that people who have been given love and acceptance of some kind during childhood are also better at discovering allies later in life. I wonder if for many gay people who were mistreated as kids by their families, the rejection they experience thru homophobia only confirms their deepest fears that no one will ever accept them. I think childhood rejection ends up being a defining experience for many adults.

[ Parent ]
From a psychological perspective
I think both of you are probably right.

As a person who has been rejected by those closest to her, yes, it does kind of fuck up the trust, you know?  Can't say it doesn't.  And yeah, I come to expect it from others.

However, your comments also have a tad bit of self-congratulatory, santimonious air about them

Bully for you and Troy for getting love at a young age and therefore being able to trust others as an adult.  Musta been nice.

Please note though that this post, if you read between the lines and look a little deeper, is about the breach of trust experienced by me and a confirmation that not only can I not trust family but I can't trust people who call themselves "friends."  Not that I didn't try.  The fact that I was hurt at all by this woman's comments is a testament to the fact that I bothered at all in trusting her.

Yet, in getting the slap down it is again a confirmation of rejection that I experienced as a child.  Believe me, it wasn't a one incidence thing as a child that told me to never trust again.  I have tried to trust again and you see what it got me.


[ Parent ]
About the children
As I mentioned to SinChapelHill below, read my update. 

This woman sees us maybe 3 times a year, but if she ever says something negative about us in front of our kids, she will get an earful and then be tossed out on it.

I don't care what her reasoning, beliefs, or age may be.  I don't have to respect her if she's going to disrespect my family.

Simple.


[ Parent ]
Hard choices.
I admire you for making the difficult choice here.  It's never easy cutting people out of your life, even for the most basic reason of self-preservation.  Know that you have my full support.  Well, other than financial, which I can barely provide for myself.  *grin*

I am hoping that this may be a wakeup call for your friend's mother.  It may be that when push comes to shove, your actions will be the force that breaks the wall of bigotry in her heart.

I am hoping.  I really am.
Edie


[ Parent ]
Thanks Troy
Wow, that was a great story. It took guts to do what you did and it's so cool how it worked out.

[ Parent ]
bingo
nail, hammer, meet nail.
People are uneducated on this issue.
educate yourselves and them.
with feeling !
:)(

http://EQFL.org

[ Parent ]
bingo.
people are uneducated on this issue, including the gay community.
Educate yourselves and then educate the ones around you. If they don't hear from us... this will be the result.
Nashville? might have something to do with it.

http://EQFL.org

[ Parent ]
Callie
I am so sorry for the pain this incident has caused you. I find it most ironic though that the very people who've done the most damage to the institution of marriage (eg: the divorced, the substance abusers, the domestic abusers, the adulterers, etc) are the very same people who feel they have some sort of God-given right to pronounce gays and lesbians unfit for marriage. And even more ironic, it's people like me who've been married for 25 years or more who are rolling in the aisles laughing at the notion that gays and lesbians are a threat to the institution. If we do anything, we should start by banning these brain-dead sanctimonious hypocrites from marrying again. They have already proven they don?t have a clue what makes a marriage work.

And this is just my humble opinion, but as long as they are so willing to talk about limiting other people?s rights, I think it is high time to limit anyone who has ever been divorced from even weighing in on a subject in which they?ve already gotten a failing grade. They know not what they are talking about and their opinions on the subject are insignificant.


gonna gently disagree with you, SeethingMom.
Only one problem with your plan to ban the divorced from commenting:  I'm divorced!  *grin*  Yes, I'm a lesbian.  Yes, I'm divorced.  Only difference under your criteria is that I am for same-sex marriage. 

Remember, for true equality, my opinion has to be as important as Newt Gingrich's.  Even if he is a hypocritical bastard. 


[ Parent ]
Clarifying a little.
After re-reading my posts, I realized that I've probably come off as flip-flopping. 

Regarding my post on how the LGBT community are the Samaritans, I was refering to the act of giving water and snacks to anti-gay protesters, not to Callie's situation.  I love the idea of turning Christianty to our use.  I think, however, that Callie's decision to continue to welcome her friend's mom into her home qualifies as returning kindness for evil.  She has no obligation to welcome a homophobe into her home. 

I also believe in setting limits on the political actions of our friends and family.  Turning the other cheek, Ghandi-ism, all can be carried to the point of masochism.  That's not healthy. 

Also, I think I really presented myself as something I'm not:  a preachy Christian ready with a bible quote to salve every hurt.  I'm Agnostic, leaning heavily toward Atheism, with a healthy dose of Neo-Paganism. 

Finally, I really screwed up in my response to Seething Mom:  I should have said that for true equality, Newt Gingrich's opinion should be as worthy of public voice as mine, even is he is a hypocritical bastard.  Maybe even more, so that we can tear it down because he is a hypocritical bastard. 


It came as a BIG revelation to me at almost 30yrs. old
It came as a BIG revelation to me at almost 30yrs. old that I could pick and choose which family members I wanted to maintain contact. My mother had been real big on the entire extended family unit(I think that was from her Mormon roots.)

I've heard some horror stories of poor men with AIDS (to weak to care for themselves,) returnng to their families who HATED them, and treated them horribly. My lover had an uncle who wouldn't allow my POZ lover to eat from the dishes or silverware the others used. My lover who died in 1990 had a father who knew he'd been given only 3 months to live, refused to see him when he asked him three different days.


Moving post
Hope more people will see the light.  In the meantime I wish you strength.

Callie, I'm so sorry!
I consider my brother and his spouse to be married; in fact, I always refer to them as my brother and my brother-in-law.  But I don't forget for a minute that they can't get married, and I live in fear that they'll run up against someone official who won't accept their relationship -- and that none of us "approved" family members will get there in time to intervene (among lots of other concerns, but we're all getting a bit older, so I worry more and more about health issues).

My parents love my brother and my brother-in-law (past tense for my dad, who died a few months ago), but they never got (and my mother still doesn't) the cognitive dissonance of voting for candidates who actively oppose equality.  I think it's a generational thing.  I hate it, but I know I'm different and my children will be even more so.

Best wishes to you, your wife, and your precious baby.

"If the apocalypse comes... beep me." -- Buffy Summers


When Loves not enought for Family
I believe all of us have to deal with situations like this from time to time.  FWIW, after coming out to my family my Father was one of my biggest supporters.  His biggest fear was that I would "leave" the family and not be around for all those family outings and gatherings. 

Years ago my uncle came out after marriage and 3 kids.  After he told his fmaily he essentially left for over 10 years.  Not much contact with family at all.

I say this because I recently overheard my Father talking on the phone saying how he does not agree with Marriage for gays and lesbians.  He thinks of it as a Man-Woman thing.  I was hurt and disappointed but chose not to confront the situation until I had a chance to think.

My belief is that we need to educate others that modern marriage is a CIVIL contract, not rooted in theological principals.  People of my Fathers generation need to be educated about the benefits and responsibilities given through a CIVIL marriage.  They also need to be educated about rights denied those for whom a civil marriage is currently unlawful.

Hopefully if enough people are educated about the inequalities of our modern day society these beliefs may be changed gradually without resorting to a us vs. them confrontation.  Confrontation rarely resolves anything- it only seems to harden peoples belief systems and not allow them to change.

Just my two cents!


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