They didn't ask, he didn't tell -- they assumed he was gay and targeted him

Eighth grade.

That's what this behavior reminds me of. We're putting live ordnance into the hands of a bunch of frickin' thirteen-year-olds.

Golly, I feel so much safer now.

Blogwhoring @ http://indigestible.nightwares.com/

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by: Warren @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 11:16:54 AM CDT

Please don't flame me on this

But I think this is what we get when we have an all-volunteer military, and the lower ranks in said military get paid starvation wages.  This is not true for all people go into the military, many if not most of the men and women go into the service to serve their country and improve themselves, but many go into the military because they need the discipline.  They can't make it on their own because they are not suited for post-secondary education and they have few options for direction otherwise.  These are the kind of people who may have emotional or behavioral problems.  These are the guys are among those who stack naked prisoners in pyramids, rape prisoners, and make life a living hell for closeted gay people, or people suspected of being glbt.

I like Germany's system: if I remember correctly, students have two choices: they can go into the military for a 18 month stint, or they can serve in a version of the Peace Corps for two years.  I think if borrowed these two approaches, plus added a version of the old civilian conservation corps (because it would be nice to drive on a bridge and be sure I am going to reach the other side).  That way, young people could learn important skills, and learn to get along with people from all walks of life.  Even the men and women with emotional or behavioral issues could benefit, because they would get guidance and discipline they need.

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by: JoshWatermanMN @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 11:47:53 AM CDT

I like that idea, Josh!

Especially some sort of civilian conservation corps...

 

ee 

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by: Julien Sharp @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 11:55:35 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No flaming here.

I like that idea too.

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by: Holly Capote @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 12:14:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks

I never know about some of my schemes.  ;)

Seriously, though, some of these programs could benefit people who lose their jobs (they could learn a trade, or it could be flexible so people could go to school), people who are transitioning from some sort of care program (drug rehabilitation, mental health care), public assistance (young mothers with children who may not have received the chance to go on to school--maybe a daycare program could be utilized with people who are in one of the three programs), or people who have been incarcerated and need to transition to the outside world.  One of the big problems in our society is that we are still highly segregated by class, race, and life experience.  It would not only benefit people with special issues to work with people who have had greater advantage in life, it would benefit those with greater advantages to work with others who do not have those advantages (compassion and understanding being largely learned traits).

 OK.  This is the part where Josh wakes up from his daydream of rocking horse people with marshmallow pies.

 The problem with these programs are twofold: financial and social.  Financially, this will be difficult because, even with a ready labor pool, stuff like building materials cost money.  Secondly, socially, the right has people whipped into a frenzy, a distrust of anything federal.  they will scream "socialism."  They will scream "nanny state."  They will scream "slavery" (which is probably the most baseless of the three, but I never doubt the rhetorical-warping powers of a Scaife-funded pundit with an pen and an eye for a book deal).  Sadly, right now, many people will believe them.

 

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by: JoshWatermanMN @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 12:19:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Do you remember your reply to my post?

"You don't have to be queer in order to be bashed like one"  Your words were prophetic.  And again, I hope the straight community wakes up and gets a clue.  Homophobia hurts everyone.

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by: actosrep @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 15:19:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Homophobia hurts everyone

  Yes it does when it is used against us in the right ways.
Actually, I would love to thank Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Porno Pete, James Hartline, Rev Billy Ball, Mayor Naugle, and the rest.  With every dumbass stunt they try, we couldn't make them look any dumber than they do themselves.  Even when they try(I call fake it)to show compassion towards th LGBT community, they fuck it up and show their true colors. 

  Step one, is easy, show the WBC gang for 5 or so minutes.  We all know how disgusting this groyp is, and so do the not so heavy hitting fundies.  The WBC Main Line,"GOD Hates Fags"

  Step two, Show Porno Pete in Action, His Message, "GOD hates Fags, but tries to use a different tactic, "We want to help the homos find Jesus, and remove the sin"  Sounds like BULLSHIT TO ME.  This guy is sooo much into leather and BDSM, and calls it research.  Think about this for a minute. Seriously, with all the trips (investigations) to Leather Shows, he always says what he saw,takes pictures of men and only once have I seen his page with womaen dressed in leather, but never an interview with the persons selling it that would know what all that stuff is used for. Porno Pete Must Know.  And I would bet he liks being a "ponyboy"

  And he just keeps on giving the homo side of the story. If Porno Pete wanted to do true "research" into BDSM, he needs to read 3 books minimum; Screw the Roses, send me the thornes" , "learning the ropes" ,  "The Art of a Dominatrix"

  Yes, these three books would have him busyfor awhile. all designed for male submisive/female dominate.  And this is some sick stuff to me, but I guess fun if that is your style.  I believe he has read these books, that is where they get the crazy list of sexual orientation come from. (feces eating, golden showers, ect.)

  But all he does is try to relate it to the LGBT, and not the hets.

  Step three, get Pat Robertson's views on Petey Prize Research, or even James Dobson, They will call Pete and Fred as a lunitic.  Never once remembering they are one the same ANTI-LGBT team.  Need proof, look at how all of them reacted when Falwell died.

  Step four, Take the rest wantabees, compile thier bible quotes, Levidicus, Romans, etc.  It splits them like an onion,

  I take the above, and compare it the same as they do, drug additicion. someone into petty theft, or some other crime. There is no one set way that works.

  The originial cry, "The Sanctity of Marriage" to "polygimist" to "beasteality"  all fucking fears, that never happened.  what do these fucksticks actually have left?  The ANSWER, NOT ONE SOLID THING OF HONEST LOGIC!

  What does the LGBT have, Our Love, Desire, Compasion, and Will to show the Truth about the LGBT community.

  The truth of the LGBT Comminuity is easy to show for what it is.  Because the fundies have done a great job showing what the LGBT community is not. 

  We are people that live a productive life. And they have shown so many different views of what we are not, they made  it easier for us.

  IMHO The LGBT boggyman is about dead.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 03:04:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

military service

Josh, having spent time in the Army as a NCO in an infantry unit and my brother in the Navy as an aviator, I can attest to the fact that many educated people do either enlist or attend ROTC or an officers candidate school.  I went into the reserves in college and all officers are college educated.  My unit had numerous college grad's and vocational professionals.  The reasons people join are as varied as their backgrounds, but many joined out of a sense of patriotism and service.  Some joined because they were looking for specific skill training and there were those that needed a way out of a dead end situation (poor, rural & inner city, abusive parents, etc...).  When I was in as a NCO, you have to make progress toward a college degree in order to get promoted.

Regarding the behavior of those that abuse prisoners, actually it is the more educated that have an easier time justifying abuse and torture than the less educated.  In the book, "A Question of Torture" by Alfred McCoy presents evidence that education gives people the tools neccesary to rationalize the abuse of prisoners. 

You are not to far off regarding starvation wages.  At a base where my brother was stationed, he had enlisted personel that were receiving food stamps and working part time jobs to make ends meet.  The housing was so bad it was practically falling down.  One of his fellow officers went to Washington and basically shamed them into doing something.  Thankfully, things have improved, but believe me no one goes into the military to get rich.

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by: actosrep @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 15:08:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Josh, check out this link

http://www.antiwar.c...

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by: actosrep @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 15:31:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oldie but goodie

People have been raising this idea, Josh, for years, decades, even, and it never seems to take off.  I don't know why.  It makes sense to create a sense of connection within the group and to one's country to have some kind of national service, however you choose to define it. 

I think the all-volunteer army is going to get worse, given the kind of recruitment pressure we saw in Fahrenheit 911 and the lower standards widely reported in re/intelligence tests and criminal records.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

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by: Lev Raphael @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 12:07:12 PM CDT

All Volunteer Military

The current volunteer military is the result of the social and emotional aftermath of the Vietnam conflict.  Lower and middle class men were conscripted while families with money could defer their sons commitments indefinitely by taking advantage of college deferrments or buying them slots in the National Guard.

One could volunteer to enlist in a service that did not go into direct combat, like the Air Force, or one could hope that one's draft number (determined by birthdate) would be a high one and less likely to be called. 

My family has a long history of military service (Army, Air Force and Navy), but I would not encourage any of my sons to enlist in today's military. 

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by: Zorya @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 12:20:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hi Lev

I am not the most well read person on the subject, but I am amazed it hasn't taken off.  i suppose Vietnam may have soured many people's taste of a conscription service like that.  Do you know what the reasons are that this hasn't taken off?  I am not sure how to do a search because I don't know the proper phrases I could feed Google to get it to spit out the info.  :)

 Having a conscription service like the one I described would also serve as a check on some of our worst excesses.  People would develop an appreciation for public property and works, we would develop an appreciation for people in other cultures and compassion for people in other parts of the world who are less fortunate (providing we don't slide back into the slippery slope of imperialism and colonialism), and we would not be so gung ho about going to war against a power that did not attack us.  We would develop an interest in the world and its people, and realize we are not the center of the friggin' universe.

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by: JoshWatermanMN @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 12:30:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is insane ...

... but not surprising considering homophobic freaks like Cpl Matt Sanchez are fomenting as much hatred as they can against gay soldiers.

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by: Ralph4159 @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 12:16:30 PM CDT

Problems that get ignored

Josh, my sense of it has always been that a national service is presented as a solution to any number of specific problems like urban decay, working with disaffected youth, cleaning the environment, etc. one at a time, as opposed to be seeing as something larger for a whole host of problems, and something that offers a range of opportunities.  People in Congress tend to think small, or when they think big it gets out of hand, like creating DHS and its attendant problems of organization. 

The larger problem is one of vision and inspiration.  We don't have any politician or leader with the fire, passion, inspiration and articulateness of JFK or MLK.  So there isn't anyone who can galvanize us into saying, "Yes, we'll tackle this now because we have to." Who's raising our consciousness?  Who's speaking poetic truths about prosaic problems?

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

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by: Lev Raphael @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 13:28:53 PM CDT

Lev, one reason that there's no MLK, Jr. or JFK equivalent is that...

...it got them both shot.  In the head.

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by: Holly Capote @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 16:10:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just heard yesterday on NPR

about a proposal to set up a National Service Academy along the lines of the military academies.  In return for 4 years of college and a degree, the recipient then must serve 5 years of non-military government service.  Details are probably at the NPR site (which I'm too rushed to go look up).

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by: Jami @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 13:34:05 PM CDT

I think the problem is bigger than that

We've had other voices who saw the big picture who weren't shot, like Humphrey.

 

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

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by: Lev Raphael @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 16:40:49 PM CDT

Sure, there's mroe to it. I just framed it as "...one reason...."

However, heroes do tend to be murdered.  For example, ask a group to name 5 great leaders and, again and again, they'll offer:

JFK

MLK, Jr.

Gandhi

Jesus

Lincoln

Of course, they were all killed.  I know that groups will do this because I've asked them and then when you note that their choices were all murdered, the groups are surprised.  It should be no surprise, however, that leadership is dangerous.  Groups crave stasis and "leaders" are usually elected/appointed to serve stasis. 

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by: Holly Capote @ Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 16:59:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]