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The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
"a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy."

He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


Ex-gay "Christian" activist James Hartline on Pam:
"I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians."
(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth Against Homosexuality heartily endorses the Blend, calling Pam:

A "vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist."
(Concerned Women for America's radio show [9:15], 1/25/07)

"A nutty lesbian blogger."
(MassResistance radio show [16:25], 2/3/07)


Pam's House Blend always seems to find these sick f*cks. The area of the country she is in? The home state of her wife? I know, they are everywhere. Pam just does such a great job of bringing them out into the light.
--Impeach Bush


who monitors yours Bevis ?? Just thought I would drop you a line,so the rest of your life is not wasted.
--"Joe"

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Will the HRC/Logo forum address issues facing LGBT communities of color?

by: Pam Spaulding

Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 06:21:26 AM EDT


With many LGBTQ voters of African descent experiencing the downside of diversity by not being fully included in the both African American and gay communities the HRC-Logo debate is viewed as a white queer public soliloquy giving the illusion of inclusion.
--  Rev. Irene Monroe, ordained minister, religion columnist, feminist theologian, questioning whether the HRC/Logo presidential forum will ignore critical issues of concern to the black LGBTQ community
I was just thinking about this issue when I received an email in my inbox from Bil Browning of The Bilerico Project, about an essay there by Reverend Monroe on a population largely unrepresented in either the coverage of or involvement in the forum -- communities of color. Many, Monroe says, aren't even aware of the forum.
"Why would I know about this debate?," LaShaun Williams of New Orleans told me. "Before Katrina the black and white gay communities was separated. Now after Katrina even moreso because only those who have money either stayed during the city's renovation or had money to return back. Our community is smaller and more invisible than ever and the gay paper down here doesn't now and never have circulated where black folks live."
It's quite obvious to queer folks of color that "the movement" is overwhemingly white, well-to-do, urban-dwelling, internet-connected -- and that means a different worldview (given human nature) about what issues are critical than what may be true in minority queer communities.

The queer community is a decisive electoral force that politicians have learned over the years, for their own campaign survival, that they must at least wink at.

But their winks have never cast eyes on this nation's black same gender loving communities. And the issues concerning white queer communities are indeed vastly different from the black community.

"We got an entire community dying of AIDS and I know the first question that's going to come out of somebody's mouth will be that of gay marriage," Rita Johnson of Detroit told me.

Social research shows that African-American same-gender households have everything to gain in the struggle for marriage equality and more to lose when states pass amendments banning marriage equality and other forms of partner recognition. For example, in November 2005, Equality Maryland and the National Black Justice Coalition published "Jumping the Broom: a Black Perspective on Same-Gender Marriage." And the statistics revealed the following: Forty-five percent of black same-sex couples reported stable relationships of five years or longer. And 20 percent of black men and 24 percent of black women in same-sex households are denied health care benefits for their partners by the government.

Marriage is important, but so is tackling the religious homophobia in the black community that drives discussion of sexuality, safer sex, monogomy and honesty deep into the closet.

More than one person of color frustrated by the lack of the gay white establishment's involvement in these issues has told me that it's always couched as a third rail issue -- that they don't want to address black homophobia, for instance, because it's something that needs to be "dealt with internally," meaning it's up to LGBTQ blacks to handle it because the white establishment doesn't want to be perceived as "meddling" in a minority community's "issue."

Of course this is bunk. Homophobia is homophobia, and begging off any struggle simply because it's difficult to negotiate or makes one uncomfortable is a pitiful position to hold, given it's the very same message we've heard in the past from our alleged Democratic allies. How many times were we told back in prior election cycles that we (the gay community as a whole) are responsible for "winning over" the American public to convince them that our civil rights are important. We were told we were on our own because the political risk was too great for them at the time.

What, pray tell, is the difference?

It was enlightening to attend the much-ignored-by-the-MSM National Black Justice Coalition's Second Annual Black Church Summit held in Philly last March. It was a gathering of LGBT and gay-affirming religious leaders, the people at the front lines facing extreme disapproval from many in the socially conservative religious black community.

There was a debate between LGBT allies and leaders, including Rev. Dr. Michael Eric Dyson and Bush-supporting Bishop Harry Jackson, Chairman of the High-Impact Leadership Coalition. Jackson is strident in his opposition to LGBT rights.

[G]ay activists around the country are getting nervous that they are about to experience an embarrassing political setback. Instead of amending the hate crimes legislation that protects churches in a substantive way, they are simply crying out in a louder, more threatening manner. Gay advocates are not looking for fairness; they are looking for an upper hand.
-- Jackson, in a Town Hall column.
The establishment LGBT rights movement has not, until recently, even addressed the success of the white evangelical movement in capitalizing on institutionalized homophobia in the black church, even though these churches should be wary of bedding down with a movement that otherwise wants nothing to do with black issues on any other occasion.

That's how deep the homophobia goes, and that's where support is needed, and why diverse voices need to be present at forums like the HRC/Logo program. The  questions raised should be able to be seen and heard by all. Low-wealth LGBT citizens may not have cable or broadband. They are just as affected by the issues that will be discussed as the larger LGBT community of influence, yet many are left with the feeling, rightly or wrongly, intentionally or not, this is a "white-only" affair. There's a lot of work to do if people on both sides of the color line are willing to roll their sleeves up and deal with feeling uncomfortable and move forward.

Related:


* Pro-LGBT black clergy ad counters misinformation on hate crimes legislation
Reporting from the NBJC Second Annual Black Church Summit.

Pam Spaulding :: Will the HRC/Logo forum address issues facing LGBT communities of color?
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This has always been an issue,

Something many "white" LGBT organizations have tried to correct. And no matter what is tried it only seems to get a little better.

An organization I'm involved with Kalamazoo Alliance For Equality, has tried to reach out. We've gone to black churches, we've gone to the club in town where a lot of black LGBT people hang out, we've had black speakers at events (speaking about black LGBT issues), etc.

But a few people have inticated that maybe all that work is not worth it. Since at most we will have one black person show up to one meeting, and than never be heard from again.  Other minority populations have attended meetings and been involved, but so far the black community has been silent. Personally its a little annoying, how are we supposed to address the needs of the black LGBT community if no one will step forward and participate?

At one event for my college GSA group I was veery excited when four black kids showed up. They were greeted warmly and we were happy to have them involved, but it turned out they only came for the free food :( (which is not unusual for college students)

Maybe if some one could offer some new suggestions on how we can get the black community more involved I would be happy, but like others I'm starting to believe it is a waste of time and effort (sorry to say that, but with limited resources and an all volunteer organization, it seems a lot like running into a wall at full force and wondering why you're not moving forward any more. Than trying it again and again.)

P.S. I have a feeling (and a few people have told me so) that a number of hard working members have burnt out due to this effort and we lose someone who volunteered 8-10 hours a week. The feeling that its not working is a little frustrating.



Sorry for the long rant
but this is an issue that I've been thinking about for a while now. And I really would like some new ideas.

[ Parent ]
the significance of word choice
I noticed in the quotes from (I think) Munroe that the white population in the essay was referred to as queer, while the black/African-American population was referred to as same-sex loving/same-gender households.  I'm curious to know if black gay people reject the word queer as yet another fashionable label introduced (as it was) by mostly white 'queer theorists' in academia some decades ago.  I'm a man, and a white gay one ir asked for more specifics, but I've never accepted the word queer (it was as nasty as faggot when I was a teenager) and, contrary to the perception of people, especially people of color (a more tortured version of colored people), I feel just as pushed out of what passes for the gay mainstream as they do.  I think universal health coverage is a far more pressing issue (for far more many people) that a marriage license.  Housing, a true living wage, the list goes on.  I am as certain, and as turned off, as your writer who said the first thing out of someone's mouth at the LOGO forum will be about marriage - not about AIDS, not about health care, not about Iraq.  And why not have Andrew Sullivan questioning them?  Mellissa Edthridge?!  Whatever.  I digressed here, sorry, but my point is that not all white gay people think the same way.  Some of us feel just as marginalized by the HRC/Marriage Equality/Let's Call Ourselves Queer direction a 'movement' we once thought included us has taken.  I won't waste time on the debate, and I gaurantee you not one candidate will use the word queer.  Most sensible people know it's a slur, no matter how much a small segment of the once proud gay population wants to embrace it.  It disheartens me every time I see it used synonymously with gay in magazines like the Advocate or Out (make up your minds already!) and especially by someone as enjoyable and essential as Pam Spaulding.  All the intellectualizing in the world won't a hateful word into a term of endearment.  (Sound familiar?)

I fail to see the problem

Health care, Iraq, Poverty, and so on are all very important, but I fail to understand why GLBT groups should be making them their focus. Isn't the purpose of a GLBT lobby to lobby for GLBT issues?

I'm a staunch environmentalist, but I don't want HRC making the environment their focus. There are already many excellent environmental groups, some of which I'm a contributor to.



[ Parent ]
Hear ya!

Yeah, every time I read any gay-related article on Alternet I see a follow-on comment that says essentially, "Why is this is crap here when blah blah writer could be writing about more important matters like Iraq or healthcare?"

It's a little exhausting to hear that "well, we have so many more important things to address, and well, honestly, when we fix those first, we'll get to the gay stuff."

I'm thrilled that Logo's having this, regardless of it not really being a debate or that someone other than a politico is axksing questions...it's a landmark achievement that we get these jokers on our turf to talk about our stuff for a change.

Throw everything gay-related at 'em--people of color issues, marriage, gay healthcare, best shoe designer, whatever, I say. If AFL-CIO can host a debate where all the candidates try to be the bestest Norma Rae ever, then we should be able to have our "conversation" and make them compete to be the bestest Harvey Milk ever.



Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

[ Parent ]
Underlying issues

Of course it is necessary for LGBT lobby groups to focus on many important issues.  Since this government is not willing to give us  100% equality, we must fight tooth and nail for everything we can get.

If you look closesly at many important issues you will find underlying LGBT issues that are not being adressed.  In the case of the war, there is the SLDN which is important to LGBT services members.  In terms of the immigration debate, Immigration Equality was instrumental in drafting the UAFA.  Are you aware that same sex bi-national couples are either forced to separate or leave the US and move to a more open minded country?

Until we have 100% equal rights, we have to fight for every right individually.



[ Parent ]
All those issues affect Equality across the board

Health Care, pretty obvious across the board concern and it REALLY affects people with AIDS like myself.  It is a concern for us all.

Iraq, and service ability for GLBT Folks in the military affects all of our communities and their are inequities facing LGBT folks who want to serve their contry in a military way.  As well as the racial issues surrounding the "all volunteer" (if you aren't wealthy, white and republican) military.  It is proportionatly people of low economic status and generally people of color.

Poverty, well, with many people in the GLBT community dealing with health care issues that bankrupt them, and discrimination in employment, Poverty affects us as well.

The environment is a serious issue that affects all mankind, yes, including us GLBT folks as well. 

The GLBT or LGBT (depending on your POV-early days it was GLBT then it switched to LGBT??) Community needs to address ALL issues of inequality simply because we encompass ALL aspects of society.  These issues affect us all, simply because our community spans all soci-economic and racial divides.  WE ARE THE WORLD in the sense that we are everyone.   



The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
Please! Let's Lay Off The Derogatory Terminology
I agree with what you said about the Gay Rights movement having an overwhelmingly White face, but I do not identify as a "queer", and I never will.  Good Lord!  People of color are already struggling to get out from under "nigger", "bitch" "ho" and other ghetto epithets.  Now you want to hang "queer" on us?  Pam, both you and Irene Munroe know that the word "queer" is not indigenous to Black communities.  Most Black Lesbians and Gay men don't use it to refer to themselves.  Why would you encourage them to do so?  Please think about what  you're doing.  You're helping an ignorant and insensitive White leadership impose this derogatory "umbrella term" on LGBT folk of color.  You're far from ignorant.  You both should know better!  I strongly resent your applying the word "queer" to Gay people, but especially to Gay people of color given our history of verbal disparagement.  Let's speak of ourselves in a way that's accurate, respectful and progressive.  Reject the politics of self-marginalization!  If we marginalize ourselves, we have no right to complain when others marginalize us.

We do have a
long way to go. Jonathan Capehart from The Post will be one of the questioners tonight and he is gay and black. As a gay white male I agree that our top tier organizations are too dominated by people that look like me. When you mention the word "gay" to mainstream society what pops into people's heads is the successful white male gym bunny, manifested by characters on Will and Grace and the party boys from Queer as Folk, a stereotype that needs to change This dialogue is a two way street. White gay outreach to the Black gay community is sometimes seen as condescending and insincere when many of us really do want to relate better.

Jonathan Capehart is involved
The editorial writer of the Washington Post, and he is black, so maybe the issues of Black GLBT people will be addressed.  One can only hope that equality means equality for everyone regardless of race gender or sexuality.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

It is changing, LOGO has Noah's Arc

An entirely gay and black series.  The first of it's kind.  So Logo is doing what it can to further the concerns of that segment of the gay community.  And Noah's Arc is a pretty good show.  Funny as hell and it discusses important issues.  Seems like we all have some work to do to have our community as a whole better represented, but this series is a good start.

 

http://www.logoonline.com/shows/dyn/noahs_arc/series.jhtml

 

 



The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

They bringing it back?
Cuz it done run it's course, and they cancelled it. Real shame!

Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

[ Parent ]
yes, I saw the ad the other day
New episodes of Noah's Arc will be out soon (this month I think)

[ Parent ]
HIV in African-American community, any orientation

That, I think, is an issue of importance that is just starting to be recognized by the het. black community publicly ie in a forum where the general black, and white, population will notice. (I am not dissing the many local groups that have tried to raise consciousness in the community). I'd say that prevention, treatment, and honesty could be something that almost everyone could agree on. Risk for HIV/AIDS is  the one common feature shared by well-insured white gay men and poor black (mostly straight) women.

 Full funding for HIV/AIDS programs for the underinsured would be one very concrete step. Community based education projects. Affordable housing, meals on wheels, etc.

Silence = Death

 HIV is not "a white problem".



FWIW I did a diary on that issue and only 2 people commented

Link here with all types of facts....

 

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=688

 

 

 

 



The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
Irene Monroe
raises an excellent point.  However, I have a bone to pick with her.  She almost always raises the point in a way that promotes further racial mistrust and distance, IMO.  She really crapped heavily on the marriage effort in MA, ignoring the fact that marriage is now there for *everyone*, not just right white fags.  Yes, the non-legal part of the marriage campaign was largely run by white men, which annoyed me to no end as well.  But if I'd have stayed away from the fight because I was annoyed at that, there would have been one less woman taking charge.  Problems can be pointed out in a constructive way, and you can step up and make the change you want to see.  Or you can take a pot shot, where no further work is required.  Irene too frequently goes for the pot shot.

/rant over/

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Lurleen on Twitter.


"both sides of the color line"
can i use this as an opportunity to remind everyone about something we all know but always seem to overlook?  this country isn't just populated by blacks and whites.  there are south asians, east asians, latinos, hispanics, semitics, first nations americans,  mixed race people, o.m.g. so many kinds of people i can't list them all.

i truly think the key to getting over our entrenched legacy of slavery is to step out of this binary way of thinking.  i don't pretend to know how to do it, other than point it out when i see it.  but that's a start, anyway.

to all you non-white, non-black people out there - for the love of mike, get noisy!  stop letting we whites and blacks act as if we're all there is in this country.  please, make yourselves part of the conversation so that the the two of us can get over ourselves!

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.


Yellow Is a Color Too

Everyone here obiviously is colorblind. My partner and I moved from California to Texas and were shocked at how the GLBT community only addresses racial issues in Black and White. I was even told by one black person when referring to my partner that he didn't see a lot of white guys with an "Asian fetish". A fetish? That is how he boiled down our 6 year relationship. I was floored and pissed at the same time. We also get the underhanded remarks of "High Carb" couple is here, you know "Rice and Potatoes". The community needs to wake up! Blacks make 11% of the US population and Asians are presently 8% and growing rapidly. A lot of people in our community need to realize that the rainbow has more than one meaning.

When you hear the knock on the door of inclusion I suggest you open it and if have a problem with other colors coming in, it might be time for you to find a new house to play in.



[ Parent ]
Derogatory Terms
I agree with Gunit and Stuffed Animal when they decry the use of such terms as "queer," "faggot," "dyke," and other such names historically, and even now, used by the oppressors of LGBT people.  It is no advantage to appropriate these derogatory terms, falsely thinking that by so doing it empowers LGBT people.  They even use such terms in university classes, and have as programs, "LGBTQ Studies."  By using such terms, it devalues the person using them; it wittingly or unwittingly shows lack of self-respect; it provides "justification" for non-LGBT people to have contempt for them; it reinforces the idea that LGBT people are "the other," thereby affirming discrimination on the part of others, thereby even furthering the acquisition of full and equal civil rights for LGBT people.  We never hear Jews refer to themselves as "kikes," we never hear Italians refer to themselves as "wops," etc., but when historically oppressed minority groups, such as LGBT people and Afro-Americans use such historically denigrating language to refer to themselves and to others within that group, it's very harmful in ways not anticipated.  I think that this matter deserves a great deal of discussion, and Pam's site is the perfect forum in which to hold that discussion, whether it be in this thread or in another.

"A Church that doesn't provoke any crisis, a gospel that doesn't unsettle, a word of God that doesn't get under anyone's skin, a word of God that doesn't touch the real sin of society in which it is being proclaimed, what gospel is that? Archbishop Oscar

Each Generation chooses what to call itself

What offends one generation does not offend another.  I hated it back when they started using the word Queer, and it irked me to no end, but some people feel as if it fits them, and they should be able to call themselves what they want.  I still don't care for the term, but it bothers me less now than it did 15 years ago.

It isn't so far away from using the phrase Same Sex marriage, instead of Gay Marriage, or much different than women adopting the term Lesbian Rather than Gay.  Back when I came out we were all GAY, gay men and gay women.  But now each segment wants it's own category.  It also used to be the GAY PRIDE parade, and now it's always refered to in the literature as the GLBT Pride.

Terms change, and I am much less offended by Queer than when it was ONLY used by straight people as a deragatory comment.



The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
Let's Stop Helping Our Enemies!

This is not about generational slang.  This is not about what words may or may not offend someone personally.  This is about the need to apply names to ourselves that are respectful.  This is about encouraging others to respect us.  There's nothing respectful about "Queer"!  And BTW, it's always used in a derogatory sense, regardless of whether an LGBT person or a Straight person says it.  We're attracted to it for its shock value, its edginess, its lack of so-called political correctness.  All this talk about cleansing the word of negative connotation is pure bullsh*t!   Without its negative connotation, we'd drop it faster than a hot potato.  We use slurs like "queer" and "dyke" on ourselves because we want to appear tough and trendy and streetwise, but that kind of behavior is juvenile and immature.  We're not teenagers!  Grown-up Gay activists have no business trading in those kinds of epithets, and they surely should know better than to put them in the titles of organizations.  ("Dykes On Bikes" . . . "Queers for Social Justice" . . . gimme a friggin' break!)  Adopting demeaning labels doesn't advance our struggle for equality one damn bit.  On the contrary, it works against equality by reinforcing Straight society's inaccurate perception of us:  "Yeah, they are a bunch of queers!  That's what I always said about them.  Now they're admitting it, and that means us normal people are are justified in keeping them from getting married, adopting children, serving in the military, etc."  When we call ourselves "queers", we are helping our enemies marginalize us! 



[ Parent ]
I'll have to agree to disagree

At least on this issue.  The great thing about freedom of speech is that I am able to say and use the language I feel is apropriate (at least in describing myself) and you are free to be offended at what I label myself.  Even though I tend to use GAY as how I describe my orientation.

But in defense of embracing words, Queer was certainly changed when used in "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" and in Queer As Folk. 

I certainly don't begrudge you the use of terms you see fit in describing yourself, but won't allow anyone to declare that I can't refer to myself and the community in which I live as I see fit.

Sometimes, even in this day and age, it's good to be an american.



The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
Freedom of Arrogance, Freedom of Ignorance

Queer was certainly changed when used in "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" and in Queer As Folk.

 If you can convince James Dobson, Lou Sheldon and Pat Robertson of that, then you can convince me.  Get busy, because it's going to take some doing!

I certainly don't begrudge you the use of terms you see fit in describing yourself, but won't allow anyone to declare that I can't refer to myself and the community in which I live as I see fit.

You can call yourself any derogatory name you choose, but you cannot claim the "right" to demean an entire community with sexual slurs!  I'm part of the LGBT community, such as it is, and I will not consent to have you or anybody else apply rude labels to me.  I don't know what irks me more, your arrogance or your ignorance!  Epithets don't stop being epithets just because they appear in popular media; Rap music's use of the word "nigger" is certainly evidence of that.



[ Parent ]
one person doesn't name a community, and change HAPPENS

Neither you or I control how OUR community labels itself, and don't count on one name ever staying for very long.

We've had a myriad of names, mostly hateful epitaths in our History. We've had slang which was offensive towards minority members and women (Queen's English has a whole list of nasty titles some claimed, or used against one another.)

I've seen Homosexual change to Gay change to Gay/Lesbian (Lesbian/Gay) change to GLBT(LGBT) change to Queer Nation change to LGBTIQ change to Same Sex, Gay Straight Alliance, Queer, Faggot, Dyke, Radical Faerie, and dozens of other variations.



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
The Difference Between You And Me . . .
. . . is that my identity is constant and I don't pay attention to name fads . . . more important, I don't answer to names that are derogatory, regardless of what others around me may feel forced to do. 

[ Parent ]
I am not FORCED to do anything...dearie
I choose how I define myself, if you don't like it...(if ya can't take a joke......!)

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Get Serious For Once
That's your problem, everything's a joke to you.  You don't take your relationship to society seriously, and as a result, society doesn't take you seriously.  It won't, either, until you learn how to present a respectable face.  You may think you're defining yourself, but all you're really doing is letting the oppressor define you.

[ Parent ]
As I stated, call yourself what you wish

And I will call myself what I wish.  Despite all your protests, it obviously isn't "demeaning" or considered a "sexual slur" by thousands if not millions of Gay people if they wish to use it.

As for my arrogance?  I hardly think it arrogant to share my point of view.  Arrogance is insisting that only YOUR point of view is valid in a community which has a multitude of different types of people.  You are the one being arrogant when you demand that everyone fall in line with your way of thinking and only behave as YOU think they should.  And ignorance?  I think you are the one that shows your ignorance when insinuating that yours is the only viable and correct alternative.  The community in which I live has no issue with the terms you have issue with and we won't allow you to tell us how we have to behave and identify ourselves.

If you don't like the terms, simply don't use them.  Some of us wish to live our lives as we see fit, without your instructions to follow your edicts on language and terminology.  As I stated, I don't begrudge you in using the terms you see fit, and I certainly won't allow you or anyone else to determine what I see fit to call myself and the community in which I live.

YOUR arrogance in assumming that you and only you know what is the correct identifier for an entire group of people is the height of arrogance.  You assume that we are all entirely alike simply because we have sex with the same gender as ourselves.  Sorry, but that isn't how it works.  I was always under the impression that the fight for equality and the embracing of our cultural diversity was what this whole fight was about.  It's sad to see that some really only want diversity if and only if it conforms to their ideas.  Now that's ignorant.

next you'll be complaining about the heavy set males that call themselves BEARS or the fact that some transgendered folks call themselves Trannies.  You don't get to make up the rules about how I self identify.  I'm not saying you have to call yourself a fag or a queer, I simply insist that you not take away my right to call myself what I wish to call myself.  Which, as I stated, is GAY.  I don't call myself Queer, but I do not begrudge anyone else the right to call themselves by that title.  Nor should you.



The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
The Queen Of Denial Greets Her Subjects

Despite all your protests, it obviously isn't "demeaning" or considered a "sexual slur" by thousands if not millions of Gay people if they wish to use it.

And if millions of Gay people choose to live in denial, it certainly won't be the first time that has happened. 

 The community in which I live has no issue with the terms you have issue with and we won't allow you to tell us how we have to behave and identify ourselves.

Speaking of arrogance . . . you, setting yourself up as spokesman for the LGBT community.  A community in which, BTW, I live, too!  You don't speak for me.  I wouldn't have you speaking for me, with your cluelessness about word connotations.

I was always under the impression that the fight for equality and the embracing of our cultural diversity was what this whole fight was about. 

That is what it's about, but unfortunately, obstinate people like you seem to think you're going to achieve equality by validating the oppressor's anti-Gay language.

next you'll be complaining about the heavy set males that call themselves BEARS or the fact that some transgendered folks call themselves Trannies.

Nothing like changing the subject when your argument is stumbling along on shaky legs, is there?

I'm not saying you have to call yourself a fag or a queer, I simply insist that you not take away my right to call myself what I wish to call myself . . . I don't call myself Queer, but I do not begrudge anyone else the right to call themselves by that title.  Nor should you.

Get off it!  This exchange was never about my "begrudging" anyone anything.  It was about my refusal to have derogatory labels imposed on me.  You are so lacking in political consciousness, it's downright embarrassing.  If folks like you would put as much energy into fighting discrimination as you do into defending self-denigrating language, we'd be a lot farther along in our equality struggle! 

A people who seeks freedom must keep its eyes on the prize.  The prize you're eyeing is obviously outsider status, and Lord help you, I'm afraid that's exactly what you're gonna end up with.  But I don't feature standing on the outside with you and your self-identified "queers".  I'm set on going inside and getting a place at the table. 



[ Parent ]
ix-NAY on the een-QUAY it's a ur-SLAY

"and Lord help you, I'm afraid that's exactly what you're gonna end up with.  But I don't feature standing on the outside with you and your self-identified "queers".  I'm set on going inside and getting a place at the table. "

The $2000.00 a plate dinner with the Log Cabinettes is a waiting for you, be sure to thank YOUR Lord for the bounty HE'S provided.



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
You are a slef-grandizing individual

Who thinks that they and they alone are the arbiter of what is correct in the gay community.  I embrace diversity, and you demand that everyone conform to your way of speaking or identifying.  If you bothered to read any of my posts you would have seen that I repeatedly say that I do not use the term myself.  I prefer Gay, which in itself a term that at one point in time caused aggrivation for Our Community.

You have no idea about my fight or participation in the fight for equality and it's you smug "I know better's" that do more damage to the community than people like me who call for an embrace of diversity.  You haven't listened or read acurately one thing anyone here has posted.  Let alone acknowledged your error on Larry Kramer's own use of the word Queer, right after you claimed first hand knowledge of the fact that he would never use that term.

You are outdated and obsolete, especially if you think you have the right to tell everyone what THEY have to call themselves.  Your "inclusiveness" shows exactly how damaging you are to the cause itself.  You try to deny anyone a free thought on what to call themselves, while everyone else is talking about how they wish to be more inclusive.

You sound a lot like a former poster here named Josh.  It's either your way or the highway.  Trust me when I say that many of us would rather take the highway than such a narrow road as the one you travel.

And I find it funny that when you are challenged by a thoughtful individual, YOU resort to name calling and the use of the same derogatory terms you decry the community for using.

Mr. Pot, please meet Mr. Kettle.  New Boss, same as the Old Boss.  Your attempts at limiting freedom of association are no less dangerous than those tactics used by the religous right.  They too, believe they are the only ones with THE answer.  You do more damage than they do, because at least they admit that they are our enemies.

My fight for equality in this community is well documented, and known by others on this site, and I haven't any need to explain to you my efforts. 



The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
You and Your Forked-Tongue Rhetoric

I embrace diversity . . .

I didn't know embracing diversity meant embracing the concept that some human beings are inferior to others.  Sounds like Right Wing revisionism to me. 

. . . you demand that everyone conform to your way of speaking or identifying. 

You're a liar.  I never demanded any such thing, and my posts in this thread reveal what I really said. 

I prefer Gay, which in itself a term that at one point in time caused aggrivation for Our Community.

It may well have, but unlike "queer", Gay (or Gai) isn't a word that was designed to demonize a people.  Nor is it a word with inherent negative connotations.  If you doubt me, check the etymology.

You haven't listened or read acurately one thing anyone here has posted . . .

 And you have? Don't make me laugh.

. . . let alone acknowledged your error on Larry Kramer's own use of the word Queer, right after you claimed first hand knowledge of the fact that he would never use that term.

Proof positive that you haven't read this thread!  Read it now.  You'll see where I corrected the erroneous statement that Larry Kramer embraced "queer" in a recent speech.  BTW, I didn't say he never used it.  I know he has used it.  He's used it in the same way I sometimes do, to emphasize its toxic nature.

You are outdated and obsolete . . .

Your over-the-top response to my comments makes me wonder if you might not be worried about your own relevancy, dude.  I think you have reason to worry. 

You try to deny anyone a free thought on what to call themselves, while everyone else is talking about how they wish to be more inclusive.

First of all, imposting derogatory labels on communities is not inclusiveness.  That's ludicrous.  Second, far be it from me to oppose free thinking!  My concern is that little thinking is actually being done on this fad for "reclaiming" epithets, free or otherwise.

Trust me when I say that many of us would rather take the highway than such a narrow road as the one you travel.

There you go again, Mr. Ego!  Setting yourself up as a spokesman for all LGBT creation!  And, I might add, leading your imaginary sycophants down a Highway to Hell.  I like my narrow road just fine.  It goes straight ahead in one direction.  Your wide road is twisted, and it has pitfalls.   

And I find it funny that when you are challenged by a thoughtful individual, YOU resort to name calling and the use of the same derogatory terms you decry the community for using.

I find it funny that you'd try to get away with such a huge lie!  Do you think people can't scroll back through this thread and see whether or not you're telling the truth?

Mr. Pot, please meet Mr. Kettle. 

Who are you talking to?  Are you hearing voices?  I suspected you might be psychotic. 

New Boss, same as the Old Boss. 

When it comes to defining myself, I don't answer to a Boss and never have.  Do you? 

Your attempts at limiting freedom of association are no less dangerous than those tactics used by the religous right.  They too, believe they are the only ones with THE answer.  You do more damage than they do, because at least they admit that they are our enemies.

My "attempts at limiting freedom of association"?  My, how you exaggerate!  Your exaggerations are so gross, I'm tempted to call them lies.  I think I shall.

My fight for equality in this community is well documented, and known by others on this site, and I haven't any need to explain to you my efforts. 

Watch out, that big ego of yours is showing again!  I don't care what you may (or may not) have done in the past to advance LGBT equality.  You're undermining those efforts now by encouraging Gay people to adopt reactionary, self-defeating labels.  How the Hell can we get the oppressor to see us equals if we're so eager to snatch up his dirty cast-offs?  I don't want his leavings!  I don't want his nasty names.  I don't want his stupid stereotypical portrayals in the media.  I don't want the second-class citizenship he's got all wrapped up for me with red ribbons.  Hypocritically, you profess to reject his "largesse" just as I do, but you think it's fine and dandy if Lesbians and Gay men claim it.  You call it "embracing diversity".  I call it sabotaging the movement. 

You're a fighter, eh?  Well, if the way you fight is to urge your comrades to wear the enemy's contempt for them like a badge of pride, you might as well be on the other side!  You're pushing their agenda!  If you feel it's good for LGBT folk to be thought of as "queers", and James Dobson feels the same way, there's not a dime's worth of difference between you!  Maybe you're the one who needs to come clean and admit his true allegiances, eh?   



[ Parent ]
Burnsey, Stuffed Animal called me a liar too.
Stuffed Animal, breathe. 

Breathe.

You're among friends.


[ Parent ]
Troll alert

This site has had other recent incidents of ad hominem attacks, nastiness, vituperation, name-calling, blatant misreading of replies, etc.

Doesn't all the anger sound and feel familiar? 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Lev, I don't think Stuffed Animal is Josh.
I think Stuffed Animal is a gay Blender who's a little frazzled by the extended fighting over descriptors.  Josh, in all his personas, was somewhat consistent, but never genuine.  I think Stuffed Animal is genuinely distressed by the use of "queer." 

[ Parent ]
We can't use deragotory names unless....
It's me calling you a queen, liar, self-hating or some other attack simply because my argument has no impact on your thoughts or perceptions. I'm all for equal rights, as long as you use my language and terms in describing yourself. You can't possibly like yourself if you self identify in any way that deviates from MY plan. Diversity is conformity, so please, let's all relive the castro clone days. (SNARK-for those who couldn't tell)....

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
neither Chadster or Josh
But I've seen this kind of game before of a couple others trying to dismiss me by accusing me of being past trolls, so everyone will disregard my posts.

WHATEVER!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
My post had nothing to do with you
So I am unsure why you directed this as a reply to my post.  My post had to do with someone saying we shouldn't use derogatory names then turning around and calling people derogatory names. 

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
I Didn't Call You A Queen . . .
I referenced the Pam Tillis song "Queen Of Denial."  It gives me no pleasure to call my sisters and brothers self-hating, but I'm going to tell the truth.  As for liars, well, they pay their money and they take their chances.

[ Parent ]
faggots and faeries and dykes....Oh My!
faggots and faeries and dykes....Oh My!

faggots and faeries and dykes....Oh My!

faggots and faeries and dykes....Oh My!

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
lol
you are "Wicked" aren't you!!

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
you should see my flying monkeys


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
you call yourself what YOU choose, I'll do the same

I grew up in the fifties and sixties when queer was the slur of choice, so I didn't take to it easily, but now I have. Lesbians I know have no problem with the term dyke, the largest lesbian event in Minneapolis is "Dykes Night Out", many of the womyn I knew were cartoonists, photographers, sculptors, Raku artists...all called themselves dyke.

I call people what they call themselves, if it changes, I consider it good manners to change too.

"it's not what you're called, it's what you answer to"



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
What You Answer To

Lesbians I know have no problem with the term dyke, the largest lesbian event in Minneapolis is "Dykes Night Out", many of the womyn I knew were cartoonists, photographers, sculptors, Raku artists...all called themselves dyke.

Once upon a time, a whole lot of German citizens had no problem with calling themselves Nazis.

 I call people what they call themselves, if it changes, I consider it good manners to change too.

Whatever the Hell your parents taught you about good manners, it sure wasn't the same thing I was taught!  So if you run into a group of Black men calling each other "nigger", you'll feel obliged to call them the same thing?  Or if you overhear two women calling each other "bitch"?  I'd love to be fly on the wall when you got the rude awakening you'd deserve for such presumptuousness.  

"it's not what you're called, it's what you answer to"

And if you answer to derogatory names like "queer" and "dyke", what does that say about you, then?  Disrespect and ignorance don't look good on anybody.



[ Parent ]
You KNOW there are double standards with reclaimed slurs

African Americans may with in their group of friends use n*gger, women within their group of friends use b*tch, gays within their group of friends use faggot/fag, lesbians within their group of friends use dyke.

Those not within those people's group of friends aren't allowed to use those slurs...they haven't earned that RIGHT.

You can argue that you don't like reclaimed slurs or double standards, but they are in common use, and you won't change that.



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Have You Noticed?

In case you haven't noticed, slurs never get reclaimed.  They remain slurs, no matter how much minority groups try to ameliorate their meaning.  Also, double standards don't work.  Whatever you say within an "in" group" can and will be adopted by the "out" group, especially when "in" group members are always giving their "out" group friends permission to use the same language. 



[ Parent ]
judge much?

"it's not what you're called, it's what you answer to"

"And if you answer to derogatory names like "queer" and "dyke", what does that say about you, then?  Disrespect and ignorance don't look good on anybody."

 

Judgemental, Sanctamonius Holier-than-Thou doesn't look good on anyone EITHER!



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
not to mention HUMORLESS PC POLICE!


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Dude, I Ain't Your Policeman . . .
I've got better things to do than make you behave.  All I'm trying to do is make you think about the language you use.  If you find that humorless, well, there's a time for levity, and there's a time for seriousness.  I'm not sure you know what time it is. 

[ Parent ]
I'm Not Holier Than Thou . . .
. . . I'm just less superficial.

[ Parent ]
"LGBTQ Studies"
It has always been my understanding that in the use of this particular acronym, especially in a university setting, the Q always stands for "questioning", not "queer". I have read many books that use the Q at the end, always in reference to "questioning".

____________________

Donate to Carmen's Place


[ Parent ]
LGBTIQ

LGBTIQ = Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Intersex Queer

      http://www.equity.qut.edu.au/issues/sexuality/definitions.jsp

 

* LGBTQ: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Questioning (and for some young people, especially White youth and

young adults on the coasts, the "Q" may also signify a personal identity as "queer." However, we still advise schools that the

word is still considered derogatory by many LGBTQ people.)

    http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/history/LGBT_historyDecember.pdf

Looking at several links I get the impression QUEER was the reason to add the Q, but in schools they altered it to questioning, due to hate speech regulations.



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
That doesn't make sense.
Adding "queer" to that list would be ridiculously redundant. There are many 80's/90's academic books, such as "The Questioning Man's Guide" which refer to yet another subset of sexuality. The much more likely explanation is that (straight) people saw the acronym and would never naturally assume the Q meant "questioning", going for the much more common assumption until it actually became...a common assumption. The acronym itself was invented for "PC" purposes, so it makes no sense for it to originally have "queer" at the end of it.

____________________

Donate to Carmen's Place


[ Parent ]
LGBTIQ

LGBTIQ......Came into use after queer was being widely accepted in our community, and while you may find it redundant, some who define themselves as queer, don't like being defined as gay or lesbian.

I think "questioning" is the term that doesn't belong on the list, it appears they just grasped for some other word which began with Q to put in place of queer. I'll do further research on it's origins.



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
LGBTIQ links

"lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex/indigenous and queer (LGBTIQ+) "

   http://www.asiasrc.org/in-plainspeak/issue1_2005/interview-dede.php

"LGBTIQ: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender,

Intersex, Queer.

      http://www.columbia.org/pdf_files/glossary_of_sexuality_and_gender.pdf

"LGBTQQIA: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Ally. "

    http://www.aglbical.org/2GLOSSARY.htm

What is LGBTIQ?

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex and Queer. LGBTIQ is a term used to refer to the entire community formed by these diverse identities that are joined together because of their shared oppression under heterosexism, homophobia, sexism, and genderism. LGBQ are sexual orientations, T and I are not.

For definitions of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, and queer, please see our definitions page (link here).

    http://students.berkeley.edu/osl/geneq.asp?id=1550#1

Three of four use queer, and the one disagreeing link adds a SECOND Q, which seems to prove QUEER WAS THE FIRST DEFINITION.



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
more LGBTIQ

"Mission Statement:
LAMBDA is UNC-Chapel Hill's Lesbian-, Gay-, Bisexual-, Transgender-, Intersex- and Queer-affirming publication, providing a progressive outlet for news, analysis, opinion and dialogue. As such, we are inherently committed to a feminist, anti-racist and historically conscious perspective in pursuit of social justice for all people."

     http://www.unc.edu/glbtsa/lambda/aboutus.htm

This seems to be pretty definitive to me



Anti-Semitism in the LGBTI/Queer Community Experiential Workshop  (for LGBTIQ folks and allies

     http://www.facingachallenge.com/WorkshopsinDevelopment.htm


"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
*eye roll*

I'm sorry you have decided to mis-read my posts as some kind of argument with your opinion. "LGBTIQ" was something you introduced into this, not me. If you are capable of following the threads, you can see quite clearly that my first post in this thread was a reponse to what I saw as a misconception in Jerry's post.  Which is why I replied to his post and not yours. Jerry used the term "LGBTQ Studies" in refernce to universities. The fact that the Q has come to commonly mean "queer" to many people in later non-academic incarnations of the acronym is not something I dispute; I said as much in my second post. Whether or not people like the term is also irrelevant to the correction I was making. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not I personally find it redundant, and in fact, I have quite intentionally not stated my opinion about any of the terms one way or the other, because I am not interested in participating in your argument.

The Q orginally meant "questioning". Period. That was its' purpose in being inclusive, which is common in university "PC" talk, as you note. "Queer" is obviously redundant in its original incarnation, because it is an academic invention in the first place. Not because it is my opinion. It would be like a chemist classifying a group of elements as "Oxygen, Hydrogen and Water."  Do all the research you like. I was in school then, I know very well what it was supposed to mean on campuses. Students may have embraced "queer" but university policy-makers in the 80's certainly had not.



____________________

Donate to Carmen's Place


[ Parent ]
I can back up my assertions and you can't/won't
It makes no sense in the context of LGBTIQ (an entire community on Non-Hets) working for political gains of equality to include QUESTIONING people.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Dude

...I could not care less about your assertions. "LGBTIQ", with the 'I' in it, and whatever it currently means, was not EVER what I was referring to. I was not even referring to anything YOU had posted when I first brought it up. I was referring to what Jerry wrote in an academic and historical context. Nor was I disagreeing with you when you said it has come to mean "queer" in the present-- all of which I have written here twice now. What part of it don't you understand?
 I think you have your dander up from your discussion with others and are just in the mood to argue. The point I orginally inteded to make is on the screen. If you would like to continue to argue with yourself, feel free.



____________________

Donate to Carmen's Place


[ Parent ]
I could not care less about your assertions. "LGBTIQ

Your three posts SPECIFICLY addressing the Q in LGBTIQ seems to make lie of that statement.

 

Thou doth protest too much.....ROFLMQAO!

btw the Q stands for QUEER in ROFLMQAO...too!



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
Here We Go Again

These so called black leaders play quite lucratively into the easily duped minds of white people. They convince these whites they are speaking for blacks, and are the leaders within black communities.  Go to any low income black community and most of the dwellers have never heard of Mr. Jackson. Not this one anyway.

He is on the payroll.  Just as Oprah's boyfriend's business partner Armstrong: that money was good!

What a scam artist. "Bishop" (*snicker*) Harry Jackson is probably sipping Cosmos at the Pink Flamingo Bar as I type this.

 Everyone knows most of these ministers are bisexual.  They are screwing every single woman in the church and getting oral sex from the organist (flaming queen).

I like Farakhan o.k. but let's be real. What grown self respecting man slicks his hair down at 75 years of age.  The Minister is not the most masculine man I have ever seen. And he knows and has admitted he provoked the murder of Malcolm X.

I would be curious as to the educational background of Mr. Jackson. So many times these so called black christian leaders received their "degrees" in divinity from nothing more than an off site diploma mill equivalent to the University of Phoenix.

Oh well, another one.

 

 

 



And that's not all...

"...let's be real. What grown self respecting man slicks his hair down at 75 years of age.  The Minister is not the most masculine man I have ever seen."

And the anti-transsexual song he did back when he called himself The Charmer seemed to be a wee bit 'doth protesting too much.'

Kat



>^..^<

[ Parent ]
"Grown-up Gay activists have no business trading in those kinds of epithets, and they surely should know better than to put them in the titles of organizations."

"Grown-up Gay activists have no business trading in those kinds of epithets, and they surely should know better than to put them in the titles of organizations"

 

Michael Signorelli, and Larry Kramer would disagree, and they have earned the right to be called grown ups and activists.

Queer In America, and FAGGOT are both regarded as notable books in our community.

Dykes To Watch Out For is probably the most read lesbian cartoon in the Nation.



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


Oppressive Idiom

Dykes To Watch Out For is probably the most read lesbian cartoon in the Nation

So rude language can be popular!  That's not news.  Just look at the popularity of raunchy Gangsta Rap records.  Media saturation makes the rude language no less rude, nor does it make the ignorance that encourages use of rude language any less ignorant.

Queer In America, and FAGGOT are both regarded as notable books in our community.

For their content, dude, not for their titles.  Man, your "everybody digs it so it must be OK" attitude is gonna get you in big trouble, if it hasn't done so already.

Michael Signorelli, and Larry Kramer would disagree, and they have earned the right to be called grown ups and activists.

Do you think I worship at the shrine of famous Gay pundits? God is no respecter of persons, and neither am I!  However,  I do respect Larry Kramer, and I know for a fact he hates the word "queer" and won't answer to it.  Here's some info you may find useful:  Kramer didn't title his novel Faggots in order to popularize the insult.  He used ugly language as artists sometimes do in order to call attention to social ills.  As for Signorile (spell his name right, why don't you?) and his casual use of "queer", I remember him confessing to having been a Gay basher at one period in his life.  I guess that period hasn't ended!  What a shame he doesn't realize it.

There seem to be an awful lot of LGBT folk these days who have a fondness for oppressive idiom.  Some of them even call themselves equality activists.  I'm an equality activist, too, but I sense a profound difference between us.  It begs the question: If my comrade calls me by the same insulting name that my enemy calls me by, should I stop making a distinction between them?



[ Parent ]
You and YOUR GOD

You and YOUR GOD can kiss my saggy old FAGGOT pucker hole!

You won't have to worry about what you call a comrade...I doubt you have any.

Being this site's Little Miss Spellcheck isn't going to win you comrades EITHER!

If I see a mispelled word do you see me ripping into someone about it?

But your superior holier-than-thou ANAL RETENTIVE self just can't help itself to make someone look LESS, so you feel better about your pathetic little life!



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


[ Parent ]
The Enemy Within

Snide comments, childish outbursts, self-denigration, obscene language . . . behavior that marks you as a pathetic, insecure, self-loathing Gay person.  No, you are not my comrade.  You aren't the comrade of anybody who's fighting for equality, respect and justice.  You clearly belong to the enemy.  I feel sorry for you.  I sincerely hope you can find a way to drain out all that bile you're carrying around inside.  



[ Parent ]
Larry Kramer

QUOTE:

 

However,  I do respect Larry Kramer, and I know for a fact he hates the word "queer" and won't answer to it.

I don't know about that.

 

“Creating a blog would allow for expression and refinement of ideas and policies, like a Queer Justice League for denouncing our enemies.

- Larry Kramer, March 13, 2007. 

http://queer-justice...

 

 



[ Parent ]
Look Closer At That Speech You Quoted From . . .
. . . and you'll see that quote came from someone other than Larry Kramer.  A man named Eric Sawyer was probably the source.  In the text of his speech, Kramer clearly voices his disapproval of the epithets "faggot" and "queer".

[ Parent ]
I Agree With Stuffed Animal
Not being Gay, you might find it appropriate to think that I couldn't possibly understand diversity, and self-definiitons, as many in the LGBT communities can.  However, what's important here is not whether or not "an outsider" "understands" the need others have for certain self-identifiers, but "why" one needs condemning identifiers with which to define him/herself.

The fact is that by using such historically, and contemporary, denigrating language about oneself, and about others in one's community, betrays the conscious and unconscious self-loathing that is part and parcel of one's long exposure to oppression.  In one way or another, it's buying into the mind-set of the oppressor and unwittingly transforming that mind-set into one's own, thereby further causing the oppressed to be further oppressed, to be further vilified, and to be further discriminated against, because it reaffirms to the dominant group the "otherness" of the victimized group.

Moreover, by reaffirming "the otherness" of that group, the dominant group is feels futher justified in their oppression of that victimized group, and is that much less likely to respect the groups that they victimize; therefore, the continual denial of full and equal civil rights is that much more likely to occur.

One has to ask oneself WHY a member of a victimized minority group adopts the derogatory labels placed upon him/her by their oppressors.  What function do those labels really serve; what are the psychological, social, and political implications involved in the continued use of those derogatory labels? What are the implications of continued use of those derogatory epithets as self-identifiers, and that are still routinely used by the oppressors of that oppressed minority group, in regard to its acquiring full and equal civil rights ?

It really doesn't matter what makes a person or minority group feel "comfortable." What really matters is considering the question as to WHY the use of derogatory self-identifiers makes one feel "comfortable."

And, just as important, one must ask oneself if one is "comfortable" in continuing to be "the other," and being among the oppressed; whether or not one really wants full and equal civil rights and, if not, why not? 

"A Church that doesn't provoke any crisis, a gospel that doesn't unsettle, a word of God that doesn't get under anyone's skin, a word of God that doesn't touch the real sin of society in which it is being proclaimed, what gospel is that? Archbishop Oscar


I don't see what the big deal is....
I am intersexed--or at least was at birth. I had surgery (my own choice) to make my body  conform more to my own personal gender identity (female). I am only attracted to  women, so that makes me a lesbian. I cannot think of a word that more clearly  and concisely defines these characteristics, other than queer. I don't think of  it as derogatory. I feel like it is a term of endearment. If it offends others,  I won't call them that. But pardon me while I declare myself queer as hell, and  proud of it!
  


A society without religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.

Do You Understand What You're Calling Yourself?

I wonder if you know what queer really means?  If you don't, look it up in the dictionary.  All the connotations are there.  If that makes you feel proud, then I think a self-esteem boost is definitely in order.



[ Parent ]
I DID look it up in the dictionary.
And I am FINE with calling myself queer. Get over yourself already. It's really tiresome watching you rant on about something so insignicant in the greater sheeem of all the problems and obstacles we face as QUEER people.

A society without religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.

[ Parent ]
If You Don't Care What "Queer" Means . . .

. . . then, you go right ahead and call yourself whatever you want.  Embrace the oppressor's derogatory definitions of who you are.  But don't you dare try to apply those definitions to me.  And if you find my "rant" so tiresome, don't read my posts . . . it's not like anybody's forcing you.



[ Parent ]
Let me add

peteyPornpig = QUEER AS F*CK

I don't expect or demand others use the word queer, but DON'T tell me what to call myself, or try to do some psuedo psychobabble delving into my use of the word....especially if you aren't even in the LGBTIQ community. I'm not a bit self loathing on ANY LEVEL!



"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


I agree with you, Pete

That entire post of Jerry's smacked of telling me why I think what I think--on some psychobabble subconscious level. And I don't much care for psychobabbl, nor for being told what I think. I do not find the word queer to be denigrating in any manner, shape, or form. I disagree with the very suggestion that it is, and I find no substantiation to the claim that it is.

I find it to be as pure a definition as I can come up with for who I am, and that pleases me. I don't embrace it because it denigrates me. I embrace it because it DEFINES me. It isn't an insult to me. It's who I am, and who I have always been. Queer, in its most base form, means "different". I am different. Different can be a very GOOD thing. If someone else finds offense in a word meaning different, well, that's their problem. Tell you what--I'll think for myself, K??



A society without religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.

[ Parent ]
What "Queer" Means

Queer, in its most base form, means "different".

Excuse me, but you're wrong.  Very wrong!  Queer, in its most base form, means "twisted".  It means "sick".  It means "abnormal".  That's not exactly the same as "different."

I do not find the word queer to be denigrating in any manner, shape, or form. I disagree with the very suggestion that it is, and I find no substantiation to the claim that it is.

As I said before, take a gander at the nearest dictionary.  That's one place you can find substantiation.  Another place is in the mentality of Gay bashers who are still known to scream "queer" while kicking the sh*t out of us.  Yet another place is in the rhetoric of the Right Wing, Dominionist fascists that control our nations government, as well as most of the governments in the world.  When those people use the word "queer", they are not complimenting LGBT folk.  They are insulting us!  And when you appropriate their language, you're validating the insult.  When you validate the insult, you validate the disrespect that goes along with the insult.  But don't take my word for it . . . go ahead, think for yourself.  Just make sure that you really are thinking.



[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, but I must reiterate...

I did look it up in the dictionary, and you STILL need to get the hell over yourself.

Queer: differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal. Odd, Eccentric. Gay or homosexual.

Sounds to me like the base concept is "different". What dictionary did you use??? 

My god, what a pompous soul you are! You HONESTLY think people are beating the hell out of us over a WORD??? Sorry, you are much more deluded than I previously believed.

People are beating the hell out of us, not over a word, but because they are pre-conditioned by a culture and a religion that FUCKING HATE us. The word queer is so ancilary to that, that it is laughable to get yourself all worked up in a lather over it.

Yes, I am abnormal. WAAAY abnormal. Yes, I am odd. There's no denying it. I am indeed eccentric, but that is beside the point. And yes, I am gay (lesbian to be specific). So what's the big damned deal if I call MYSELF queer??? As I said before--if someone else objects, then I won't call them it. But I wholeheartedly resevre the right to call MYSELF whatever I damn well please, and I can think of no other word, other than ARROGANT to define someone who doesn't even know me who insists that I not use it to define myself. Leave me the hell alone, thank you.

I have embraced the fact that I am all these things, and I am comfortable with it. I celebrate it even--sometimes by using the word queer to define myself. SUE ME. I have had to learn to be comfortable with the fact that I am abnormal, so don't go lecturing me over dictionary definitions. I'm QUUUEEEEEEEEERR!!!!

Get over it. 



A society without religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.

[ Parent ]
The Oxford English Dictionary Definition of "Queer"

The English language originated in England, so this definition should be considered definitive. I've simply copied it; I don't emphasize anything, and I don't omit anything.

QUEER

• adjective 1 strange; odd.

2 informal, derogatory (of a man) homosexual.

3 British, informal, dated slightly ill.

• noun informal, derogatory, a homosexual man.

• verb, informal, spoil or ruin.

— PHRASES "in Queer Street", British, informal, dated in difficulty or debt. "queer someone’s pitch", British, informal, spoil someone’s plans or chances of doing something.

— DERIVATIVES queerish, adjective; queerly, adverb; queerness, noun.

— USAGE The word queer was first used to mean ‘homosexual’ in the early 20th century. It was originally, and usually still is, a deliberately derogatory term when used by heterosexual people. In recent years, however, gay people have taken the word queer and deliberately used it in place of gay or homosexual, in an attempt, by using the word positively, to deprive it of its negative power.

— ORIGIN perhaps from German quer ‘oblique, perverse’.

I will ask that you take note that the definition states Gay people have attempted to deprive the word "queer" of its negativity.  It does not say the attempt has been successful.  I would also ask you to take note that the usage is still derogatory among Straight people, which basically, is the point I was trying to make.  It's from a Straight power structure that we're trying to obtain equal rights.  We need to be cognizant of how we express ourselves to this power structure. 

I would take issue with this definition in that implies that all Gay people try to do this.  Not all of us do, as my contributions to this thread certainly prove. 



[ Parent ]
Anybody Who Believes That Last Comment . . .

. . . there's a big suspension bridge in San Francisco I can get for you at a steal!



[ Parent ]
for the record
If you aren't queer....NO AMOUNT of empathy you might think you posess is enough to know what my life is, and you sure as f*ck aren't in any position to judge my decisions.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner


I'm Not Queer . . .

 . . . but I am Gay, and I have more than a little insight into what that's like.  I don't know anything about your personal experiences, but I do know that whatever they were or are, they didn't turn you into a "queer".  Unlike a lot of people in this forum, I know what the word "queer" really means, and as unpleasant as you can be, I would never, ever apply that term to you.  I would cede you that much respect, which, sadly, appears to be more respect than you cede yourself.

As I said before, I can't stop anybody from doing or saying anything.  I can, however, make them think about what they do and say.  Judging from the commotion Jerry Maneker and I have raised around here, mission accomplished!  'Bye bye. 



[ Parent ]
Mission failed.

I'm still queer, still happy with that fact, and still going to continue to use queer to define myself. The only thing you have accomplished is to expose how completely inscensed you can get over a trivial word, and how incredibly arrogant, condescending, and pushy you can be when people disagree with your opinion.

Have a day, sweetie. 



A society without religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.

[ Parent ]
I like "queer" too.
It's inclusive and it's best to be different, which is the primary definition of queer.  However, if it offended someone, I'd try not to use it around them. 

[ Parent ]
Tell The Truth
I'm well aware of your separatist philosophy, Holly.  Generally speaking, you and I must agree to disagree.  I don't share your viewpoint, but I respect your right to have it.  However, I'm very disappointed that in order to make your point, you'd lie about the definition of the word "queer."  It is not and has never been synonymous with "different", and you're certainly intelligent enough to know that.

[ Parent ]
Stuffed Animal, I didn't lie. From m-w.com:

Main Entry: 1queer
Pronunciation: 'kwir
Function: adjective
Etymology: origin unknown
1 a : WORTHLESS, COUNTERFEIT <queer money> b : QUESTIONABLE, SUSPICIOUS
2 a : differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal b (1) : ECCENTRIC, UNCONVENTIONAL (2) : mildly insane : TOUCHED c : absorbed or interested to an extreme or unreasonable degree : OBSESSED d (1) often disparaging : HOMOSEXUAL (2) sometimes offensive : GAY 4b

I highlighted the germane definition.  I know that queer is saddled with pejorative connotations, but "different" is the number two definition.

And I don't have a "separatist philosophy."  To the contrary, I think that separatism is sad.



[ Parent ]
One more thing, Stuffed Animal.
Whereas I have been impressed by your conviction and passion in these threads, calling me a liar doesn't impress me, neither does assigning a descriptor as inapt as "separatist."  You could have so easily confirmed that 'different' is indeed a common meaning for queer.  Instead, you squandered that time launching an ad hom at me.  I truly do hope you have a better day than the one you're having today.

[ Parent ]
Isn't It A Lie To Fudge The Truth . . .

 . . . like you're doing now?  The overwhelming sense of "queer" is derogatory, as this definition clearly indicates.  When applied to Gay people, it notes the disparaging connotation.  To emphasize one part of a passage in order to draw attention away from another is an old religious Right Wing tactic.  I'm appalled that you would use it with me.  However, if you have so little respect for me that you'd stoop to that level, Holly, then I have no problem thinking of you as a Right Wing infiltrator.  I'm learning not to pay attention to the allegiances people claim to have, but to look at what their actions actually say about their politics.



[ Parent ]
I'm Not Your Sweetie . . .

. . . I'm strong medicine for self-hating folk like you!  I don't mean to come across as sweet.  I want to be as bitter as I can be on this topic, because that's the only way you'll ever come out of that complacent cocoon you're in.  Now, is that arrogant, condescending and pushy enough for you? 

If the word "queer" was really trivial, you would never have gotten so worked-up over it.  You're happy defining yourself as abnormal?  Liar!  Come out of your dream world and wake up to reality.  The reality of your normality!  The reality that you deserve a place at society's table.  It isn't anywhere near as scary as that bizarro world you're living in now. 



[ Parent ]
all right, cut it out

Enough bile is in this thread; can it or I will be opening the trap door for some of you.

Read this now:

 Civility on the Blend 

 

 



Thanks, Pam.
I wrote an essay where I used the phrase, "ball of undifferentiated hurt."  I think that describes many gay people.  We've all been hurt and sometimes we end up swinging at friends.

[ Parent ]
SET GAME MATCH
You call the shots, I'll follow your direction.  Sorry if I was contributing to the problem.  I don't want to be known as a troll queen.

The trollish sounding blogger formerly known as BURNSEY

[ Parent ]
Amen, Pam!

Yes, we've all been shit on by the culture, and have suffered through six years of hate, but it doesn't have to make us haters or hateful in our rhetoric.

A sense of humor is a valuable gift at times like these.

Loving friends and partners and pets aren't bad, either.

:-) 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Sorry If I Got Too Passionate . . .
. . . but I am very passionate about this issue.  I want us to stop being frivolous about what we do and say to one another.  It hurts me that a movement that is so important to the future of this country would sabotage itself.  Politically, psychologically, we are blind in many ways.  My mission is to open my brothers and sisters' eyes about expressions of self-hatred.  I've seen them devastate my African-American community.   I don't want to see that happen to my LGBT community as well. 

Apology accepted

Stuffed Animal........and one tendered to you as well if I said anything to hurt you.

I understand passion. I have passion about things too. I would just humbly submit that in this case, your passion is misplaced. Questioning my intelligence, and calling me a self-hating liar who lives in a cocoon accomplishes NOTHING at all for the greater good we all seek. Calling others on this site liars and other names accomplishes nothing. We need to avoid hurting each other, and concentrate on stopping the hurt THEY wish to impose upon us. Please don't be bitter. That accomplishes nothing either.  

The enemy is over there.....on the right.....the ones with the Bibles in their hands and their fingers inside the voting machines. The Fred Phelps' and the James Dobsons and Karl Roves and Dick Cheneys and John Q Homophobes out there. THOSE people are the enemy of GLBT people. Not me. Not Holly. Not anyone here.

I am not your enemy. We disagree about ONE THING. It's not even a big thing at all in my eyes, but you can have your opinion and still be civil. I would much rather be your friend and work side by side with you to stop the hate out there. Would you join me?

Love,

Jen 



A society without religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.

[ Parent ]
Gee whiz, Jen, that was beautiful.
Love,

Holly


[ Parent ]
cyberhug
:-D

What the hell was I doing in Oaxaca in 1992, on the eve of the Zapatista revolution?

[ Parent ]
Sleeping With The Enemy

This can't be narrowed down to a disagreement between you and I, Jan.  This is too important.  This is fundamental.  This goes to the heart of the Gay Rights movement!  Deep down, do we agree with what our enemies say about us?  That we're sick?  That we're abnormal?  That we're Straight people gone wrong?  And if we do agree, how does that affect Gay pride? 

What we think (and say) about ourselves affects the way we act.  It influences what we think is or isn't worth striving for.  I submit that internalized shame is holding our movement back!  It's motivating us to put sexual epithets into the titles of our advocacy organizations.  It's motivating us to think of ourselves purely in sexual terms.  It's preventing us from battling religious persecution effectively.  We're sabotaging ourselves without realizing it.  I also submit that our (dare I say it?) queer attachment to epithets like "queer" is the biggest manifestation of that shame.  We must deal with this problem, and deal with it immediately!  It's more antithetical to equality than any Right Wing campaign.  It amounts to sleeping with the enemy, and as long as we (and I do mean we) keep sleeping with the enemy, we'll never put our hearts and souls into fighting the enemy.  My God!  If only LGBT folk put the kind of energy and tenacity into demanding their rights that contributors to this forum have put into attacking me!  Can you imagine?  ENDA might be a reality right now.   At the moment, Jan, it's impossible for us to fight together.  My fight is different from yours. You refuse to see the threat that I see.  However, if I and others concerned about self-esteem can prevail over that very real threat, thoughts of inferiority will disappear from the minds of every Transperson, bisexual person, Gay man and Lesbian.  That means your fight will become a Hell of a lot easier.  That also means people who raise legitimate concerns about marginalization won't be treated the way I've been treated in this forum.

[ Parent ]
I shouldn't insert myself

but I do not interpret Jen, or Holly, or anyone else to be using "queer" in a derogatory way.  I don't think that anyone here is accepting that gay people are dirty, or inferior, or abnormal.  When gay people claim the word, they are claiming it as a positive thing, as a source of pride without any negative connotations.  They are refusing to let other people define them, by redefining the word.  They could also just use a new word, but I think that you will agree that the important thing is that we do not wallow in self-loathing or accept the inferior status that has been thrust on us.

Just to step back from what is obviously an emotionally charged issue for all of us, look at the word "Jew", or "Juden" in German.  For centuries it was hurled as an epithet, both here and in Europe, to the point that many Jews did not publicly identify themselves as Jews, and even tried their best to pass as Gentiles.  I read an autobiography by a man who lived in Poland who survived because he refused to accept the label that he was given or identify with the people of his birth.  He saw no reason that he should be any different from anyone else.

His mother, on the other hand, refused to hide herself.  He describes her as someone that would seize the opportunity in public to shake her long brown hair, flash her eyes, and say, "I am a Jew".  Where he lived, that was the equivalent of a man in rural Texas saying "I am a faggot".  When the ghetto was cleared, she marched proudly onto a truck as though it were her private limo.

So we can debate the efficacy of approaches and our choice of words, but we are not disagreeing about the underlying sentiment, which IS extremely important.  I rarely refer to myself as queer, but when I do, it is not for one minute because I am not proud to be gay.  It is because I am very confidant in who I am and I defy anyone to make an issue of it. 



What the hell was I doing in Oaxaca in 1992, on the eve of the Zapatista revolution?

[ Parent ]
I'm proud of who you are too, Kid.


[ Parent ]
Damn straight! :-)

I rarely use the word, but when I do, it's in the same spirit.

 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Lovely, but vain
Jen, you are trying to reason with someone who won't yield an inch.  Not only that, this person feels a need to denigrate those who disagree.  Your compassion will not be returned, judging by the ranting that we've seen in this thread.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
If Oxford is the standard--

The Oxford Thesaurus, American edition:

"queer  adj. odd, strange, different. . . . ."  and many more

And speaking of Oxford, when I attended a conference there, I got to my room and found twin beds and thought, Damn, they screwed up.  I went down to the porter and said, "I'm not going to have a roommate, am I?"  Eyes twinkling, he replied, "That's not for me to say, now is it?"  

It was hotter than hell there that summer, and with no air conditioning, I almost passed out.  Snuck away to sit by the river and was joined by Val McDermid, who was not yet then a famous, international best seller.  We sat and chatted about our spouses. 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

I love your stories, Lev.
And I love the way your tell 'em.

It's too late to suggest that you become a writer, eh?


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Holly!

It's too late.  I'm a writer for life. I fell in love with storytelling when I was 5 or 6.  I'm currently inventorying "my papers" because two university libraries have expressed interest in them, and found, amazingly, two short stories I wrote IN SECOND GRADE tucked into an unpublished novel I wrote in college.  Not sure how they got there.

BTW, I just did an interview for a popular Arizona blog and she asked some cool questions:

http://bloggingwebb....

 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Another Country

I forgot to mention that hot shirtless lads were sculling along the river as we sat in a little pergola watching them drift by. . . .

It was so very Another Country. 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
The Definitive Thesaurus . . .

. . . is Roget's, not Oxford's.  Here is Roget's online listing for the word "queer".  It includes a definition, along with synonyms and antonyms.

Main Entry:  queer
Part of Speech:  adjective 1
Definition:  abnormal
Synonyms:  anomalous, atypical, bizarre, crazy, curious, demented, disquieting, doubtful, droll, dubious, eccentric, eerie, erratic, extraordinary, fishy*, flaky*, fly ball*, freaky*, funny, idiosyncratic, irrational, irregular, kinky*, kooky*, mad, mysterious, odd, oddball, outlandish, outré, peculiar, puzzling, quaint, questionable, remarkable, shady, singular, strange, suspicious, touched, unbalanced, uncanny, uncommon, unconventional, unhinged, unnatural, unorthodox, unusual, wacky*
Antonyms:  conventional, normal

The verdict is in!  The word queer has overwhelmingly negative connotations.  It signifies the opposite of normal.  Is that what you think you are?  Is that what you think we are?  If so, then we have a serious problem.  That's what I've been trying to get through to everyone here.



[ Parent ]
Stuffed Animal, here's what you've taught me:
you think I'm a "liar" and a "right wing infiltrator."  And you think that you've been attacked for your position.  I didn't attack you.  You attacked me: liar, right wing infiltrator.  I was respectful to you: I wrote about admiring your passion and respecting your position and have avoided using the word, "queer," because you're a Blender.  You've disrespected me: liar, right wing infiltrator.  I won't discuss this issue with you because you succumb to attacking me.  What's to discuss?  I'd refine my position and you'd attack me further.  That's not a discussion.  Ad homs don't persuade me.  Here's what they teach me: don't chat with the ad hommer.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, wrong number

You're not getting your message across because we already know all the dictionary definitions.  You write as if you're addressing illiterate people.  You couldn't be more wrong.

You simply refuse to accept that some gay people can reclaim the word queer and use it defiantly.  You shout and shout and shout your disapproval and contempt, to what end?  You don't like their choice, fine.  But berating them will not make them change their minds.

The serious problem here is your intemperate, ad hominem arguments.  You accuse people of this, that, and the other; you insult them; you castigate them. You insist on spewing endless contumely. This much rage is way out of proportion.

And you diss people outrageously and ridiculously.  Holly's a rightwing infiltrator?  Yes, and Pam is a Log Cabin Republican--she's actually Karl Rove's love child. 

BTW, "overwhelmingly negative"?  Almost half of the synonyms listed above are shaded neutral to positive.  

 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Thanks for the love, lev. Lev love is my fave.

Lev, I do provoke strong responses in people.  In Boston, one colleague called me "the most dangerous woman she'd ever met."  Another described me as "an angel who's lost her memory and forgotten where she belongs."  I know you've seen posters launch at ad homs at me at raw.  That's why I rarely write there anymore: it's not worth the ad homs.  When people attack my liberal creds, I sometimes cite my decades of social justice work.  I did that at Pandagon and they mocked that.  

My internal response was, "You're phonies.  You wouldn't mock social justice work if you understood how hard it is.  You're far removed from activism and you confuse posting on a blog with being progressive."

 



[ Parent ]
You shouldn't have to defend your progressive cred

It's ludicrous when someone totally misinterprets something you say and shouts, "Visigoth!  Assasino!  Bivalve!"

Honestly, how do you respond to such claims?  Best to laugh it off or go off and write something wonderful.

 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Oh, I only wish that they had insulted me as eruditely as:

"Visigoth!  Assasino!  Bivalve!"

If someone labeled me a bivalve, for my mirth or my muddlement, I'd likely fulfill their assertion and clam up.



[ Parent ]
But--

--don't you want the world to be your oyster?

I should clam up myself before I get mussel'd aside. 



"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Oh, Lev

You're a pearl :-)

 



What the hell was I doing in Oaxaca in 1992, on the eve of the Zapatista revolution?

[ Parent ]
Yeah, he's a real gem.

If he's said pearl, then he makes me want to be mother-of-pearl.



[ Parent ]
CK and Holly!
None of us are shrimps, that's for sure.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
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