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The Gold Crucifix

by: Holly Capote

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 14:15:29 PM EST


I just went to the mall and saw a kiosk that sold "Christian Jewelry."  The jewelry was made of silver and gold. 

"That's an oxymoron," I thought.

And it is.  How can one adorn oneself with gold and silver and do so in the name of the Christ?  The Christ rejected Satan's seduction by rejecting wealth and further rejected wealth over what remained of His life. 

Wealth and Christianity go together like air and trout.  Air strangles the trout.  Wealth asphxiates faith.  And wearing a cross, an instrument of torture, to proclaim one's love for the Christ, is perverse.  Imagine a mother whose daughter was killed by a serial killer, who employed an ice pick.  Then, to forever announce her undying love for her dead daughter, the mother wears a wee gold ice pick on a chain.

But wearing the instrument of torture, as Ann Coulter and others do, is telling, for it's the mutated form of Christianity where all the suffering that needed to be done was done by the Christ. 

All of it.

How many fundies today play the lottery, go to Vegas, help build mega-churches, invest in the stock market, live in McMansions, own multiple cars, wear gold, etc.?  I assuming most hoard money or dream of wealth.

When I was walking about Boston with a friend, he said, "Hey, how come all the homeless people know you?"

That was the wrong question to the wrong person.

Here's the right one and it should have been posed to all the alleged Christians on the sidewalk: ""Hey, how come none of these homeless people know you?"   

If you wear a shiny crucifix, you're not revealing your faith, but the monstrous limits of it.
Holly Capote :: The Gold Crucifix
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The Gold Crucifix | 104 comments
To be fair....

some of the silver or gold crosses (Protestant) or crucifixes (Catholic) are christening or confirmation gifts.

As for the ice-pick, that's been done, after a fashion. Some Christian jewelry/novelty/book stores have carried an old-fashioned forged nail, yes, nail, in the original iron or in silver or gold plate. Gaaaah!

 


Oh so good, so very very good insight.

I completely agree. As a believer in Jesus, I could not wear that on me and never have since I was in my teens. Just think about this (and it never crosses their mind), they're wearing "fashion jewelery" of the of the crucifixion of the son of God. What an abomination !

There's more, much more, your on to something. Keep this going, I'll help



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

As I wrote,
I think the "something" is the fixation on the Christ's suffering.  The Christ suffered, therefore Christians don't have to suffer.  They don't have to house the poor instead of installing black granite countertops.  They don't have to feed the homeless of instead of stopping at Starbucks on the way to work.  The Christ is their ultimate, mega supreme whipping being. 
[ Parent ]
No, they still have to do those things...
Christ didn't end any of that...only the christians did...

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
I love it, Holly

"Here's the right one and it should have been posed to all the alleged Christians on the sidewalk: ""Hey, how come none of these homeless people know you?"

----------------------------------- 

You just cut right through all the superficial BS with this one line. I am not a Christian, but I have respect for ones who really do try to walk the walk.  



"The right most treasured by civilized men is the right to be let alone."--Justice Louis Brandeis
She's walked the walk.
She walks it every day.
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Hun.

[ Parent ]
Wow, Holly,
you're popular this weekend.  I leave for a day and come back and you've got 86 comments.  What's your secret? :-)
[ Parent ]
Holly Capote doesn't walk any walk.

All she does is slam Christianity and those who are Christians, with the implication that she, Holly, is the only one in the world who acts with compassion and true holiness.

Yes, Holly doesn't miss a chance to announce that she is, indeed, a TRUE Christian.  Meanwhile she badmouths all the other "lesser" Christians.  Wasn't it the Pharisees who did stuff like that?  Spent inordinate amounts of time pointing out the deficiencies in other churchgoers?  Weren't they the ones Jesus warned about ? 

I guess it's an attempt to gain favor with the atheists who abound here.


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Darlin'.
To be frank, I flinch whenever I consider myself a Christian for I've come to equate Christianity with homo-bigotry and voting for a torturing, war-mongering administration.   
[ Parent ]
They are, they're an abomination
   Just read the book Jeremiah, which I'm sure you have.

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Perfect examples of my post above.
"I'm too good for these OTHER Christian people.  And as an additional suck up to the godless folks, let me badmouth Christianity for good measure."
[ Parent ]
But,
The gold and jewels go together so well with my Prada shoes!  Holly, you hit the nail on the head of course, but Christianity got out of the carpentry business very early on.   
1 Tim 2:9

In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

  


Sober passage, Xeric.
I wish people read more from passages like this, not for the suppress-women vibe, but I wish people who quote Scripture would extol modesty and humbleness more than they do.  "Shamefacedness" is a word we don't see much that captures it very well, which I'd like to see and hear more often. (Prepare for militant backlash on how people, especially women people, don't have anything to be ashamed of and why should they have to live in shame, which they don't and no they shouldn't...I just think it's a beautiful word.  English has so many of those.) We should use Scripture to keep ourselves in check, not give us excuses when we're getting a big head.
[ Parent ]
Where are they produced?

Just saw a short video from Jim Hightower on Alternet about the manufacture of religious articles in China in sweatshop conditions, workers there making $10 a week/7day workweeks being sold by churches for for the low price of  just $29.95.

 

 


Regarding wealth, money, and profit, there are also these passages:
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
-Matthew 6:24


"He who mocks the poor shows contempt for their Maker; whoever gloats over disaster will not go unpunished."
-Proverbs 17:5


"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered."
-Proverbs 21:13


"He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty."
-Proverbs 22:16


"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"
-Matthew 19:21


"Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'"
-Matthew 19:23-24


"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me.'"
-Matthew 25:41-45


"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses."
-Proverbs 28:27


"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
-Proverbs 31:8-9


"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."
-1 Timothy 6:9-10


"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life."
-1 Timothy 6:17-19


"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."
-Ezekiel 16:49


"Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death."
-Proverbs 11:4


"A good name is more desirable than great riches; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold."
-Proverbs 22:1


"Rich and poor have this in common: The LORD is the Maker of them all."
-Proverbs 22:2


"A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor."
-Proverbs 22:9


"Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court, for the LORD will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them."
-Proverbs 22:22-23


"Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle."
-Proverbs 23:4-5


"Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a rich man whose ways are perverse."
-Proverbs 28:6


"A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished."
-Proverbs 28:20


"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern."
-Proverbs 29:7


"Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless."
-Ecclesiastes 5:10


"There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land."
-Deuteronomy 15:11


"He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God."
-Proverbs 14:31


"A fortune made by a lying tongue is a fleeting vapor and a deadly snare."
-Proverbs 21:6


"You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the Lord is their refuge."
-Psalm 14:6


"He who is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and He will reward him for what he has done."
-Proverbs 19:17


"A rich man may be wise in his own eyes, but a poor man who has discernment sees through him."
-Proverbs 28:11


"Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have."
-Hebrews 13:5


"The wealth of the rich is their fortified city; they imagine it an unscalable wall."
-Proverbs 18:11

[ Parent ]
You go girl....Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the professing christians don't like the truth.

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Covetousness...

 The basis for preachers and priests in Exodus

Exodus 18;20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt show them the way wherien they must walk and the work that they must do.

18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, " HATING COVENTOUSNESS "; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties and rulers of tens.  

They're susposed to hate covetousness. That's why I hated Jim and Tammy Baker and the PTL Club, such a farce, and I could not understand why they were considered evangelists by so many people susposedly reading the bible, susposedly christians.

professing christian don't study the bible, the greatest amount of them are not followers of Jesus.



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, Phyllis

The must mean Holly is SUCH a great person because she can trash OTHERS who share her alleged faith.  How weak is such a person who has to try to elevate herself by downing others?  And this goes on CONSTANTLY.


[ Parent ]
I noticed some of this...

   and is why I stopped conversing with Holly. I will no longer strive against someone, "they that have an ear to hear, let them hear".

I see a lot of people here behave as the enemy, putting people down with every possible whim and this I do not wish to be, so I try to reason with christians as well, that my sin may be different than theirs but no less damnable and no less forgivable and Christ will not turn his back on me because I am LGBT. The battle of "once saved always save" rages on within the christian beliefs. It is not to our good to go against all christians, but driving a wedge in their differences and disagreements, founding upon their understandings and compassion. I notice there is not really any strategies in here, just opinions, and many of them high school level. Attacking people makes them your enemy, and I see no profit in becoming as they.  

Thank you for saying PermGuy.



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Ahh.....a reasonable voice.
You are a breath of fresh air, Phyllis!!
[ Parent ]
Christian Anti-Wealth Obsession
We prefer to use wealth for good. Money is not corrupting in and of itself. I had to search the Internet for this quote - I found it at a site I know nothing about: http://www.hakesher.org/Repent...  

Rabbi Jose once said: “God has declared, ‘make for me an opening as the eye of a needle; and I will make for you an opening through which armies of soldiers with heavy equipment can enter.’”  

 Pesikta de Rav Kahanah, ed. Bernard Mendelbaum, 2nd rev. ed. (New York: Jewish Theological Seminary, 1987), p. 369.

 "Preserved as a comment on Song of Songs 5:2, Rabbi Jose’s words underscore God’s sensitivity to repentance. The slightest indication of it rouses God to action. He stands ready to assist the penitent offender. God acts like the stereotypical salesman: once he gets his toe in the door, he works it until the door is finally wide open."

 


[ Parent ]
That's an oxymoron...

   The entire American Church establishment is an oxymoron.

christians don't bother to study the bible, in fact they mostly trust the preachers and priests to tell them what the bible says and means, because they're a lazy lot.

Exodus 20:23 Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.  

 The earth once was a terrariam,

 G1:6 "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." G1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters above the firmament.G2:6 "But there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground."

When Cain killed Able:There were other people living on the earth at the time Adam and Eve were created.

G4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. G4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived and bare Enoch.

If Adam and Eve were the first two people on earth and had only two children, Question: Where did Cain find a wife?

Just a little trivia... 



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

This reminds me
of something from my childhood. I'll keep it brief. I promise :)

My mom was a single parent, struggling to make a home for us. We belonged to a New Lifer church headed by a husband and wife pastor team.

I remember visiting the pastor's house and experiencing some of my first deep envy. We lived in a small apartment with cracked linoleum and a tub that was falling through to the basement; they lived in the expansive rectory with gorgeous hardwood floors. We had an old car that broke down all the time; they had a huge luxury suburban. We gave our pound dog to my older sister so it could be better looked after; they had two beautiful golden retrievers, purebred.

I remember wanting to be in that family rather than mine. I remember feeling shame over that desire.

Why does the implementation of Christianity always involve such economic contrasts? Holly, as you point out in your post and scripture quotes, those contrasts are out of line with the bible's messages on wealth. I think that, on wealth, the bible isn't as self-conflicting as it is regarding other topics.  Is that right? I'm haven't practiced in quite some time.


Electricity's for light bulbs!

N8nyc, you're right about the contradictions in the Bible.

Whatever your beliefs, you can find backup in the Bible, but regarding wealth, I think the Bible is pretty consistent.  In a finite world, your more means less for others.

Your pastor and his wife living with more meant you lived with less.  Your mother gave money to that church and some of the boards in their beautiful floors were bought by your mother.  That money could have bought dog food or caulking or new tiles...or better yet, floorboards of her own to shore up the floor in her bathroom so that your family's tub wasn't in danger of falling through to the basement. 

Or the money that went into the rectory could have fed the poor...and that pastor and his wife could have lived in "a small apartment with cracked linoleum and a tub that was falling through to the basement" and thus acquired understanding and perhaps compassion.   


[ Parent ]
Oh, that was beautiful, Holly Capote!!
I wish I could be as good and holy as you.  You are so good to point out the flaws in others!!!  Keep up the holy work.  You are a TRUE Christian.  The others are evil pretenders who will burn in hell.
[ Parent ]
N8nyc, this made me cry:

"I remember wanting to be in that family rather than mine. I remember feeling shame over that desire."

You were the wrong person to feel that shame.  The shame rightfully belonged to the pastor and his wife.

I was raised in the Catholic Church and loved much about it...and love much still.  I love that the Pope said the war in Iraq is wrong, while fundy pastors beat the drums of war in an unholy sweat.  I love the Church's sacraments.  I am humbled by the work done by some of its nuns and priests.  Likewise, I am ashamed by the Church's history of torture, vice, greed, madness, bullying, and cowardice and even more ashamed because the Church doesn't have the decency to be ashamed.   


[ Parent ]
Yeah Holly
Thanks for that.  It took me a long to see that not all practicing Christians are the enemy. It's always good to be reminded. It keeps my own tendencies for intolerance in check!

Great topic you've brought up with this Diary.



Electricity's for light bulbs!

[ Parent ]
Oh, Holly. If only the Catholic Church could be as good and holy as thee.
It says so much about your virtue that you have the courage to criticize the church you claim to belong to.  Thank you for blessing all us in here who fall short by your very presence!
[ Parent ]
Instruments of death
My devout Mennonite grandmother also eschewed wearing a cross for the reason you mention. The way she put it to me: If Jesus had been killed by a firing squad, would we wear little machine guns around our necks to show our love for Him?

Wearing a cross fetishizes torture and death.

Yeah, it's twisted and as I wrote, it only makes sense to me...

...through this assumption: alleged Christians focus on His suffering to obviate any of their potential suffering.  As long as the Christ suffered THAT MUCH, the suffering quota is filled and see, see, see the cross!  The Christ did suffer that much.

I have a friend who visited the ArchBishop of Canterbury.  While there, he bopped about the grounds and came across a chapel.  Being a Jew and not therefore innured to the cross, he was shocked by the suffering depicted. 

So, he left the chapel and went outside and wondered, "What did he felt like to be splayed in that way?"

So, he paralleled the position of the Christ on the cross and he felt...open.

And he remembered the Christ's last words, which followed his doubting ("My God, my God, why have you foresaken me?"), which were, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they're doing."

And that's what he learned about the potential of Christianity (the theology rather than the various churches that allege they're followers of the Christ): openness and forgiveness


[ Parent ]
openness and forgiveness
Since you're a Christian, it's good that you see openness and forgiveness in Christianity. I certainly don't see it.
[ Parent ]
Your right about that Holly...
   The are not open about anything. They are about conforming the masses to their doctrine, depending on which one your following. None of them agree... on anything.

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Holly, I only hope you can find forgiveness for those of us
who fail to measure up to your high degree of virtue.  Please, we beseech thee.  Do you think you could intercede for us, Holly?
[ Parent ]
At the very least...

It places the focus on one day in the life of Jesus, not the message, not the life, not the meaning.

The point was in how Jesus lived, what he taught, what he showed about how we are to relate to the Divine and to each other. And if you believe in the Resurrection, you should be focused on 36 hours AFTER that cross was used. 

 


[ Parent ]
Not sure how to respond to this

Holly, I usually really like what you write, and perhaps I'm missing some of the point of what you have to say, but I was a little offended by this.

I was raised Catholic.  Though I should note I was raised <b>very</b> post-Vatican II Catholic.  Low-church, if you will.  I ended up at a Catholic university, someplace I never thought I would go, but wouldn't trade my experience there for anything.

When I left college, I went in the service, and I knew from the orders I had that I was going right to a peacekeeping tour in Bosnia.  I wore a cross (and still often do) that a priest friend of mine blessed at my request before I left, when I asked him to pray with me.  (Maybe I should add that the cross is pretty simple - stainless steel then, pewter on a leather cord now)

Maybe it's idolatry, but for me it's a reminder not necessarily of my faith, but of my personal relationship with God.  (Not some "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" evangelical crap.)  It's also a reminder of who I am, to some extent (if that makes any sense).


Why do you have to be reminded...
   I'm constantly reminded on a daily basis, by the holy spirit, by things I'm thinking, by things I said. by ways I didn't help someone when I should have, by lots of things all day long. You don't even see that cross lest you look in the mirror. You forget it's on your neck most of time as you probably do, christian ethics.

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Good Question...
...and one that I don't think I have a good answer for, to be honest.  :-)
[ Parent ]
I have no quarrel with a simple reminder of faith, just as I've have no quarrel with a pope's residence...

...or a megachurch's residence if they were simple abodes.  But imagine how out of place the scruffy Jesus would look in the Vatican...or some crystal cathedral.  As Russ argued so well, the only thing Catholicism and captialism SHOULD have in common are the first two letters and the last four. 

And whereas the alleged priest seemed delighted in rappers sporting diamond-encrusted crucifixes, making the Christ's instrument of torture all glittery is like sprinkling glitter on a burn victim's face and saying, "There, you're all better now."

So, the alleged priest was Josh?  I should have figured with his Oh-mah-gawd6 moniker, which made him sound more like a Valley Girl than someone who walks through the Valley of Death and fears no evil.


[ Parent ]
Poor Holly. Everybody's Josh.

The priest, Polyanna, everybody who at some point has said something that does not completely follow the Democrat liberal line.

I swear, if you weren't so holy and perfect, I would swear you are a paranoid frightened little person.


[ Parent ]
I think she's emphasized
"why a cross of gold, diamonds, etc.?," instead of one of wood, twigs, corn cobs, anything.  Why something precious and costly, that is, worldly?  Crosses can be made of a lot of things that aren't shiny and expensive.  As signs of devotion, people could MAKE them, themselves, whittle them.  What's wrong with wood?  I've seen small wooden crosses that were very nice.
[ Parent ]
With due respect, Ross, I disagree.
Perhaps you missed the summation:

If you wear a shiny crucifix, you're not revealing your faith, but the monstrous limits of it.

This diary is Bible-beating, plain and simple.  Just more of the overweening pomposity (in the guise of piety) shouting,  "Look at Me, Me, Me. I know the True Faith, and you, you, you and you are not practicing it."

The hook here was to choose a symbol that carries such weight in Christendom and subject those who may cherish it to ridicule; then stand back and wait for the inevitable yelps of anger and protestation; all the while (and who didn't see this coming from the get-go?) holding the oh-but-I-was-raised-Catholic card to be played at just the right moment.  Provocation 101.

Sure. sure.  No one has to read the stuff.  But this puffery permeates so many threads here, it's quite amazing.  Reminds me of an old friend who used to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings that were specifically for atheists and agnostics (as well as anyone else, I guess). When asked about these meetings by others who were having a hard time at traditional god-centered meetings, he'd often joke, "Oh, you don't want to go there.  All they ever talk about is God."

A Fundie by any other name is.............a Fundie.
[ Parent ]
Funny, Josh.

Josh, you've been here long enough to recall that I emulate Jefferson.  Like Jefferson, I don't believe in the magic in the Bible.  For fundies, following Jesus grants them eternal floating-among-clouds.  For me, following Jesus grants just this: our species gets to endure.  By loving and forgiving, we don't exploit each other, thus inciting revolution and war.  I believe that like all other species, we die and rot.  So, what I believe is heresy.

The reason I focus on alleged Christians is the canyon between they say and what they do.  I don't know why anyone would want to call themselves a Christian, given its demands.  Of course, many reduce its demands to hating gays and doing EVERYTHING (cruise missiles, shock and awe, aircraft carriers, etc.) but turn the other cheek. 

I've always assumed you're Josh, and if you are, you're a case in point.  You have misrepresented yourself a dozen different ways.  Therefore, if you're Josh, you're a liar.  All your histories reveals that.

When you've written about your alleged lesbianism, I always thought, "That's a straight guy's parody of it, a clumsy, faint depiction."  

So, I've been wondering when you'd reveal yourself as Josh.  I fingered you as Josh in your first post and assumed you would reach a critical mass where you'd just HAVE to tip your hand.  As always, you have no flushes, no pairs, no 3-of-a-kind, no aces, no straights.


[ Parent ]
Holly, Bill Hicks put it this way
A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a fucking cross? It's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a rifle pendant.
Your insight is spot-on, and I love the supporting quotes from the Bible.  But you see, many of these hypoChristians believe in a doctrine of wealth and blessings.  In this thinking, they believe that God rewards those who are diligent, hard-working, disciplined, and fruitful.  If you are rich, it's because you are one of the Good People.  If you were Bad, then God wouldn't have blessed you with such worldly wealth.  By rewarding the Good People with wealth, they will have more influence and power to bring others into the fold (who wants to belong to the religion of poverty, anyway?)

I thought of this as I was giving blood the other day.  Often these blood drives are held at the local suburban megachurch.  When I walked into the place, I marveled at the immensity of the building, the immaculate landscaping, the seating for 20,000.  And I wondered just how someone comes to such an opulent place, surrounded by thousands whom they'll never know by name, watching the carefully choreographed, multimedia presentation given by a preacher in a $1500 suit who drove there in his Cadillac Escalade... I wondered, how does one feel the presence of a philosopher who rebelled against the moneychanges, hung out with lepers and washed the feet of whores, preached that the meek shall inherit the earth and a story about camels and needles and fat men in a place like that?

The platinum, diamond-encrusted oversized crucifix, popularized by rappers, is my favorite.  Nothing quite sums up the gospel of Christ than openly displaying to the fly shorties that you're bling-bling enough to fuck.

Now, I don't extend that to the average hypoChristian.  My mom, aunts, and many cousins wear a little gold cross.  They usually wear it beneath their shirt/blouse, unless it's cut low enough to reveal.  I have asked them why they feel wearing an iconic Roman torture device signifies their God of Love.  They respond with the stock line about it representing the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross for all our sins.

"So, then, without torture," I reply, "there is no Christianity, right?  Jesus had to be tortured in order for us to go to heaven, right?"

No wonder they aren't very concerned about us torturing our prisoners of war.

"If people let government decide which foods they eat and medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson

Graven Images, Idolatory and Polytheism oh my!

Why actually live in a manner as suggested by the teahings and life of Jesus when he, apparently, died for the sins of those who worship him as saviour?

The pope just put salvation on sale again.  All you have to do to get yourself fast-tracked is go make a pilgrammage to pray to an appropriate saint.  The pope will grant you an indulgence to get you into heaven sooner all for just helping the church generate revenue from your visit (and purchases of religious souveniers) and assisting in marketing of Catholocism.


Little Electric Chairs
Back in the mid-90s I told my then-boss that if Jesus had died in the electric chair people would be walking around with little electric chairs on their necklaces. He agreed and we laughed.
I just picked myself up off the floor.

That's the funniest religious thing I've ever heard !!!!!!!!!!

Hilarious



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
As a liberative theologian. . .

. . .the empty cross that protestants use (not the Catholic crucifix with the body still on it) represents the idea that torture and death and suffering are no longer the last word.  The cross, the instrument of a horrendous execution and of the power of death and evil is displayed to show that God has triumphed over those powers and we no longer have to fear them.  It should be a symbol of defiance against all those things that oppress us and prevent us from living fully human lives.

I agree with the idea that very expensive, very flashy crosses obscure that message and instead project one about how rich, powerful and devout the person wearing the cross is.  And the Matthew six passages that have been cited above are good examples of why those are  the wrong messages for a Christian to send.

 


I like the way you put that..
To take it a bit further.. ;), I see the cross/crucifix as the symbolism of the cross between spirit and matter, and the "crucifixion" of our spiritual being--to give life to matter. Meaning that we're all on the "cross-between" spirit and matter. And that technically, each of us is designed to be, and become a "savior" to and for the rest of us--by overcoming the hell of our own lives, for the permanent benefit of everyone else. This is how I take the story of Jesus and the meaning of the cross and unconditional love.

Whether one believes in a real Designer or not, it's easy enough to understand the tug-of-war between identifying with ourselves by how we think of ourselves (spiritual), and identifying with the often unpleasant physical reality that we experience.

So I can see wearing something of value to remind one's self of the importance of that distinction. Like a valuable locket with pictures of loved ones inside. The image of what we love most, to get us through the "crucifixions" of life.

[ Parent ]
Those kinds of people...

   make many people hate christianity as I did. I met some great people called Jesus freaks in 1971 after I returned from the war and I learned about Jesus, this simple man of truth. The phony christians began to steal this away from us too, claiming they had Jesus, but they did not, they didn't have the love and forgivness and kindness and communion and brotherhood that we had together back then, The established church squashed us and started calling us religious "sects" who also has some faulty leaders, the price to pay when you will just follow anyone and believe what they tell you the scriptures mean. Jesus words are not complicated, they are simple.

I remember walking by the door of Jim Jones church in San Francisco in 1975, to share with some brothers and sisters but the front door facade felt too establishment for me. I was more like hippies, so after walking by a few times deciding what to do, I went on my way, not wishing to engage in disputes of doctrine.

Remember, the church crucified Jesus. Many people blame the Jews, but it was not. Its was the religious leaders of the day and a small gathering of them who called out "Crucify Him" who constantly conspired against this simple man of truth  because they claimed he broke old testament laws.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took NOT ON HIM THE NATURE OF ANGELS; but he took on him the seed of Abraham (A MAN, A PERSON, LIKE US, PEOPLE) 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethern(HUMAN BEINGS) that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

And he did, he rent the vail between people and God.

He didn't wear jeweled robes of fine linens, etc. They blaspheme the name of Christ

II Cor 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

 13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Math 27;51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

   We don't have to believe these churchy LIARS any more, (you all call them fundies).  That's it for me today...Thanks Holly, for standing up.



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

Truth
None of that is true, of course. Please check with NT scholars. Don't blame Jesus' death on me when the Romans did it.
[ Parent ]
I welcome your disagree...

   I don't think anyone can say it was these are those, which my point was "religious leaders".  

I don't check no scholars, I are one.



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Then
Then you probably know my friend Michael Cook. So you blame us Jews?
[ Parent ]
You know, I never understood that blame game

Interesting, during his time alive, any Jew "rabble-rouser", including Jesus, put all Jews in danger from the Romans (note to Sherri Shepard: Jesus was born lived and died a Jew so even if you don't consider "pagan" religions as a religion, there were religions prior to Christianity).  Amazing how Jesus became a bigger danger to Jews after the Romans executed him since we are still blamed for his death.  I wonder how he would feel about that, but then, Jesus's teachings and intent have never really been at the forefront of the organized politico-religions that dominate so-called christian movement.

Come to think of it, Jesus's death was pre-ordained and necessary for him to be the sacrificial lamb and die for the sins of humanity, right?  Even Jesus seemed to know this as he supposedly acknowledged this during the last supper (as well as, basically, acknowledging that Judas had to "betray" him since that was required for Jesus to meet his fate).  Seems to me that G-d was the culprit (after all, if this is not what He wanted/He wanted to make Jesus's divinity apparent, He could have intervened at any time to change history).  


[ Parent ]
What Crucified Jesus
The historian Ellis Rivkin wrote a book titled "What Crucified Jesus."
[ Parent ]
Clearly
The only correct answer is Mel Gibson.  He crucified Jesus.  It's all on tape!

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
Here's what I said Holly....

Many people blame the Jews, but it was not. Its was the religious leaders of the day and a small gathering of them who called out "Crucify Him"

How do you see I blame the Jewish peoples in this statement.



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
but ... I always like this one about the established churchs...

Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Pirke Avot

Here is a masterpiece of ethical sayings from the Pharisees: Pirke Avot

http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html  

Chances are that Jesus himself was a Pharisee of the School of Hillel. 


[ Parent ]
I know what you mean...
   my parents drug me into all kinds of denominations, I wasn't any of them... That was forced on me...  

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
Pharisees
The religious leaders of the day were Jews. The "Crucify him" stuff was trumped up. All Jews living today, including me, are descended from the Pharisees.
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry...

   but I believe Jesus saw the same problem with the origanized religious leaders in his day that plagues us today.  What I said means just that, I am not singling out any faith...

I'm sorry if you took it that way, and I'm sorry if I sounded like that I did.



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

[ Parent ]
There was much debate among the Pharisees...

...and that doesn't count the Sadducees, Essenes and other Jewish groups at that time. Jesus paraphrased Hillel in the "Golden Rule" and quoted Leviticus and Deuteronomy in his "Great Commandment." 

I'm not majorly offended - just playing an educational and apologetic role. We are not hypocrites and neither were most of the Pharisees of 2000 years ago.


[ Parent ]
A few bad apples
It only takes a few bad apples to give everyone else a bad name, particularly when it is only the bad apples that get written about in western texts. Because of that most christians think that "Pharisee" is synonymous with "priest" and hypocritical ones at that. Christians are woefully ignorant about the parent religion from which theirs was spun off.

link

In the "New Testament" the ruling Pharisees of his time (the house of Shammai) are often represented as being the ideological foes of Jesus. It is possible that the NT is not referring to the entire group of Pharisees but rather to specfic individuals. The Pharisees themselves were well aware of the insincere among them described as "plagues of the Pharisaic party" (see Talmud Sotah 22b).

...Many non-Christians object that the four Gospels, which were canonized after Christianity had separated from Judaism (and after Pharisaism emerged as the dominant form of Judaism), are likely a very biased source concerning the conduct of the Pharisees. Some have argued that Jesus was himself a Pharisee, and that his arguments with Pharisees is a sign of inclusion rather than fundamental conflict (disputation is the dominant narrative mode in the Talmud).

...Others have argued that the portrait of the Pharisees in the New Testament is an anachronistic caricature. For example, when Jesus declares the sins of a paralytic man forgiven, the New Testament has the Pharisees criticizing Jesus' blasphemy. But Jewish sources from the time commonly associate illness with sin and healing with forgiveness, and there is no actual Rabbinic source that questions or criticizes this practice.

I once read that while most early Christian groups were pro-Jewish or at least neutral, there were also some anti-Semitic ones, and they happened to be the group that Emperor Constantine hired to establish the state sponsored corporate version of Christianity®. That was the source of the ridiculous "Jews killed Jesus" meme and probably also the reason for the slant against the Pharisees in the New Testament.

For any Blenders who are interested in learning about the history of the Pharisees, the Wikipedia article gives a good overview.

The Pharisees were, depending on the time, a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought among Jews that flourished during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE-70 CE). After the destruction of the Second Temple, the Pharisaic sect was re-established as Rabbinic Judaism - which ultimately produced normative, traditional Judaism, the basis for all contemporary forms of Judaism, including to some extent the Karaites.

[ Parent ]
Thanks Stephanie!

Another good source for stuff that happened more than 100 years ago is the Jewish Encyclopedia published between 1901-1906 which is online in its entirety at 

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ 

Anywhere you see the conservative School of Shammai, you also see their liberal opponents the School of Hillel. In most cases, the law followed the  School of Hillel.


[ Parent ]
Revisionist History anyone?
There's an old that says "even G-d cannot change history, only historians can do it"
[ Parent ]
Trap Door Opened
The admission of Josh and calling someone the B-word was more than enough.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
Were some posts deleted too?
I usually use the comment thing on the left side of the screen and a lot of them don't work any longer.  Was that an unfortunate side effect of the trap door?  I was kind of interested in reading what Russ had to say about menstruating women and God's penis...
(Or is it, as usual, something wonky is going on with my browser/operating system?  Vista blows more than a stiff breeze on Neptune.)

My America includes LGBT families.
[ Parent ]
Sorry, that was an accident
When the parent posts are deleted all sub posts go with it.   

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
I meant to just ban the user but left a check box checked :(


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
Okie doke.
It happens.  I'm glad that Josh was gone before he had a chance to dig in again though.  He probably thought that he was going to have a couple weeks to screech at everyone.  At least I know that it wasn't Bill Gates' fault, for once!  ;^)

My America includes LGBT families.
[ Parent ]
The prosperity gospel...

...Has done more damage to this world, to Christians and non-Christians alike, than pretty much anything I can think of. 

IThe co-opting of Christianity didn't start in the 20th century, and it won't disappear in the 21st. But it's something to fight against, every single day.

This post and the comments remind me of Pierce Pettis' "Lions of the Colosseum."

http://s98119973.onlinehome.us/ppdiscog/discog/trackdetails/track4217_lyrics.html


Said the lions of the colosseum

 


smiling...

   It's been fun though. Thank you Holly.

giggles..

I'm wore out, bye ya'll ...



I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

It's all a lot of nonsense

I struggled with my faith as I came out a few years back (I was one of the catholics that Holly Capote is so strongly condeming) and have come to the conclusion ALL religion is a man made bunch of nonsense made by people seeking power to control those that don't. Human charity has been shown to exist quiet well without injecting some mystical god into the mix.

It is an evil that has been with humankind long before Abraham, Jesus & Mohamed. the majority of people just cannot accept the fact that this is the only life you get.

I think H.L. Mencken said it the best, "Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable". Sorry if it pisses you off. I just had to add my 2 cents worth. Peace


My two cents as well

"Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable".

==============

I've tried to stay out of this conversation for the most part. All I can say is, try as I might, as many times, with numerous different faiths, I've never been able to get past thinking to myself "This is really all just a giant fantasy. None of this stuff is true. None of it ever happened, and none of it is relevant to me or my life."

I tried really hard to embrace faith. I'm glad it works for others. It never worked for me. I'm OK with that. I'm OK with having no faith, and embracing only rational thought, use of reason, and the use of the scientific method to determine what is knowledge.

I don't hate people of faith. I understand there is a great variance among them. People like Holly Capote have demonstrated the better side of what faith can be.

I just wish the fascist side of faith would stop destroying the lives of innocent people. 



"The right most treasured by civilized men is the right to be let alone."--Justice Louis Brandeis
[ Parent ]
I'm 100% with you
and people who choose to be religious quote only the nice parts of the Bible.  The truth is that the old testament (not only Leviticus but Exodus and many other books) and the new testament (Timothy etc.) are full of homophobic and other hideous statements, and hateful war-mongering crap that good religious souls are willing to overlook.  Jesus' teachings include a lot of hateful stuff.  Just read it.  I don't understand why people (especially Christians and Muslims) don't realize that their prophets are far from admirable.  Good Christians pretend that the churches have corrupted Jesus's statement, but that is far from the truth if you read the hateful stuff in the Gospels.  Similarly the Koran is a pathetic, and Muhammad is a despicabele creature.
[ Parent ]
Hey Corn,
Holly has struggled with it too.  She used to be Catholic as well.  I think can relate and would empathize with your struggle to reconcile your sexuality with your faith.  You're not kicked out of the dialogue, you're the inner circle.  You get the spotlight.  She's not condemning every person who was raised Catholic, but rather some of the things that thoughtless people do for self when they say they're doing them for God.
[ Parent ]
Dang.
I left after replying to the good "Father" and consequently missed everything that followed.  I return and see that in the space of a couple of hours the Amen Corner has been scrubbed of almost everything except hosannas in the highest and lots of bible verses.

Daimeon, I understand you're saying that the removal of sub-threads was a mistake.  But I'm just wondering what the poster who claimed to be a catholic priest (or someone else?) said that was so abhorrent.  Could anyone post a precis which would fill in the blanks but still pass muster without being deleted?  Thanks.
Double dang.
Since I was away and just now returned, I'm wondering if the alleged priest ever ate shrimp.
[ Parent ]
Ad Hom. Attacks

The final straw was the admission of being "Josh", and calling Holly a b*tch in the same sentence.  It's a clear violation of the community rules .  He only came on to the site to attack others and to raise a fuss among everyone by baiting the community with being "offended" by the post above and then delcaring that we were all hell bound anyways.

People are welcome to disagree and then explain why.  At first the poster seemed to but then quickly devolved into name calling and lastly admission that he is the banned troll JOSH 



"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
Which of us was Josh calling names?
Holly Capote or Holly in Cincinnati?
[ Parent ]
Holly Capote I believe
But he only said Holly and it was a direct comment to the post, so I assumed as much.  Doesn't matter tho.  It's uncalled for either way.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Daimeon
Next time when I sense mischief a'brewin' and don't want to miss anythiing, I'll make sure to get my popcorn and hang around.
[ Parent ]
Daimeon
You obviously didn't read the thread were Tomistocles saw fit to call me a "stupid c**t".

ALLY (ALLIE) (transitive) To connect or form a relation between by similitude, resemblance, friendship, or love.
[ Parent ]
No comments were meant to be deleted
Not even the offending ones.  Again, that was just an accident.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." -- Thomas Jefferson
[ Parent ]
This is how much we mean, for both good and ill:
The Gold Crucifix | 104 comments
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