Outing #2: When You Endanger A Child For The Sensationalism Of It

Mixed feelings here...

"I see this as being a very difficult situation to explain to my daughter to explain why someone would not want to be the gender they were born with," said Dave M.

Uh, Dave, the problem might be that you have to explain why a boy would want to be a girl, given the misogyny in our society.

As to being sensationally outed in the media, I wouldn't want to be the one outed, but I do wonder if it might ultimately help. The more ancient chat shows (say Donahue) used gays and lesbians (among others), to boost their own ratings in their day, but the exposure might have helped gays and lesbians in general. When the sky doesn't fall and people get bored and move on to the next sensation, doesn't it become that much harder for the fundies' p.o.v.? Might not the public's boredom help us to some extent?

I'm not saying it will be pleasant for the pioneers; it will be difficult, if not dangerous.

Oh and as for the use of the phrase, "interfering, ignorant and biased busybodies," never was a cliche more true. That's the pot calling the kettle black.

"More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read." -- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

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by: Switchhttr69 @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:03:15 AM CST

My view

I am a M2F parent of two Asperger's children. My children are, to say the least, a bit fluid about the whole concept of gender, and don't at all understand 'gender roles'.

My daughter, 4, has no real memories of me being anything but a woman; I transitioned when she was 18 months old. She wonders sometimes why she doesn't have a daddy, but it doesn't bother her. She is, in some ways, almost aggressively female - she loves pink, loves dresses, loves dolls. But on the other hand, she loves bugs, loves power tools, and is a very dominant personality.

My son, 7, was 4 when I transitioned, and he can remember when I was a boy. We've always been up-front with him about everything, and he has never not been accepting of me. He has had a couple periods of 'mourning' losing his 'father', but he never loved me the less for it. He is, by far, the more obviously non-neurotypical of the two, and in fact was expelled from his first school within 3 months of starting because they had no tolerance for children who were in any way 'special needs', especially socially.

But even at their worst, they were never anything but accepting of me, and we never once heard of another family expressing discomfort at our living situation, though I know it was common knowledge.

Would that the entire world was as accepting as here has been for my gender variance. We have had far more issues with being non-neurotypical than with my being trans, or with my partner and I being out lesbians.

(Possibly unrelated note: We live in Australia. Normally, I would have said that here is safer to transition, but after the recent story out of Sydney... I don't know that I feel that as much anymore. :( )

OK, so, I rambled a lot and dunno if I actually addressed the question posed. But, take it as you will!

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by: mistwolf @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 07:06:58 AM CST

My view as well

I'm also the parent of three young children (though growing older all the time) and I'm a transwoman.

My experiences mirror mistwolf's, my children have grown up with me as their co-mom and have been very fluid as far as gender is concerned.  It's something about themselves they can celebrate as they see fit without being tied down by it.  My daughters are both very "girly girls" by their own admission, but have many interests and skills that aren't usually associated with women in our society, and they see them as strengths.  My son periodically pulls on a dress from the "play clothes" box that they all share, and has a wonderful time expressing the variance within himself and just having fun dressing up.

My children were two, four and seven when I transitioned and I found such open, natural acceptance from them that it surprised me.  More than acceptance, there was joy in seeing me come out of my shell, step into the world and embrace life with them.  I vividly remember my older daughter running up to me a month after I'd gone full time and just hugging me over and over, saying please, don't ever go back, I love you.  Everything, all of the difficulties I had faced and had yet to face was worth it in that moment.

Our children, I believe, care about their parents love and closeness with them more than anything else.  Compared with a frog turning into a prince, exploring and journeying with gender is truly a trivial thing in the scope of what they are exposed to when growing up.

We could all learn something from them.

-Lynn

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by: Lynn @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 19:51:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I have to commend the parents

Of the child for allowing him to transition - I'm sure that's a pretty unusual situation, having parents who are willing to buy the clothes, do the paperwork, fight the fights so their children can be who they really are. There's a wonderful movie called Ma Vie en Rose (not La Vie en Rose, which is the newer Edith Piaf movie) about a young trans girl who didn't get any parental support, and that movie made me cry and cry. Hopefully their support will outweigh, ultimately, the bullying, scorn and derision she will face from peers, teachers, administrators, churches and the news organizations.

Regarding your question, Autumn, about outing a child - in no way, in no circumstance, in no world would I ever think it's right to out an elementary school child. I'm hard pressed to think of any situation where it would be all right to out anyone, ever. The only time it would prove to be a net moral good is if you're exposing the hypocrisy of the religious right (ala Ted Haggard, et al ^infinity).  

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by: Ailei @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:16:19 AM CST

Ooops

I meant allowing HER to transition. I got it right later in the paragraph! I need a second cup of coffee, stat.

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by: Ailei @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 08:17:09 AM CST

Don't worry too much about it...

...Even us transpeople screw up on the pronouns every now and again.  :)

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 09:55:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

He's right, you know!

;-) J/K, Autumn

<3 Sam

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by: Samie D @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 21:21:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Now experience my wrath!

So, uh...what was experiencing my wrath like?  ;)

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Sat Feb 09, 2008 at 01:27:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

My guess...

...The fundies made this public in an effort to pressure (read: persecute) the school, family, and child. This is their M.O. when the cry-babies don't get their way. You'd think they'd be more sensitive to persecuting others.

And what the heck is "transgender clothing?"

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by: SharonB @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 11:38:43 AM CST

...a very difficult situation to explain to my daughter

This particular "argument" is really weak, yet it seems to be a favorite of these kinds of people.

Where does this supposed constitutional right come from exactly--to not have to face any questions from your child that you might find awkward?

And how is it they think they can impose the necessarily related constitutional responsibility on others--to cease to exist, or to hide and pretend not to exist, so as not to inspire any questions?

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

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by: Sportin' Life @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 11:42:19 AM CST

explaining it to the daughter...

...is the weakest objection.  Transphobic adults are always trying to hide behind their children, saying, "Oh, this will just confuse them, i'll have to shield them from it."

IME, children are in general much more capable of accepting the idea of transgenderism and moving on to the next subject than most adults.

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by: sabrinaqedesha @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 11:59:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Ah there's the rub

There's the risk the children won't have been sufficiently inculcated with the prejudice. The kids might not find it to be as troubling as the adults. That's what scares them.

"More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read." -- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

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by: Switchhttr69 @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 19:54:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's on Drudge...

I just saw this a few hours ago linked on Sludge with a smarmy headline. I'm glad GLAAD is getting involved. Though it also kind of makes me wish channel 5 here in Maine had gone that extra step of putting their horrible story on their website a few months ago (The Melanson story.) Because it was far, far worse than the Channel 9 Denver story. (Not one single fact from the other side of the fence, or even the word transgender. Imagine the same story with only "Dave M.'s" comments.) Those WABI people needed a lot more educating than I could arrange for them with my feeble diary. Being able to get GLAAD involved might have made a difference for the future, if I had had anything to refer them to.
I'm very glad the child in Orono didn't get the same level of nationwide attention, but seeing as the child will be in school for many years to come, I worry that it won't take long for the CCL to start beating their drum again, say by the next election cycle, like clockwork. Publicly sanctioned child abuse by "Christians"...it makes me so angry.

____________________

Donate to Carmen's Place

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by: jackalope @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 13:32:41 PM CST

is there no lower...?

 Seriously, how many times to people squander a teaching moment in a SCHOOL over LGBT issues?!
How are children EVER going to face reality and understand that yes, there ARE youngsters among them who are and will and can transition and what the process is. It's SCHOOL, where you LEARN things!

  Instead of parents treating this situation as if it's criminal, THEY can also take the time to learn all about it too.
MY parents would have advocated the opportunity as such. They would have seen a child transitioning in my school as a moment that is rare to understand people who are as well.
Oh wait...they DID!

 When I was ten, my mom let me read "The Christine Jorgensen Story". A few years later, I read on my own "I Want What I Want...To Be a Woman." That was in the seventies.
I was being well prepared as a youngster for all the possibilities of folks I might encounter in life. Therefore, I was informed, unafraid, and mostly wouldn't embarrass my folks by being ignorant and inconsiderate.
 They would have been the first to encourage the other parents to learn about transgendered children and told the parents it's no different than preparing a school for a new student who might have undergone any other radical surgery that altered their appearance, but that doesn't change the fact that they are good kids.

 But I was raised by really cool people doncha know.
Well that...and the fact that in my culture transpeople are a blessing on us.

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by: Regan DuCasse @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 14:16:43 PM CST

This is going to be difficult to explain to my daughter

When the bigots say that "it's going to be hard to explain to my son/daughter" what they are really saying is "it's going to be hard to explain to my son/daughter why I think it's wrong and why I think they should hate people like them."

<3 Sam

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by: Samie D @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 19:36:06 PM CST

The Others

That's exactly what I was thinking.  They're so afraid that their kids are going to see this other kid as one of their friends and it'll make it that much harder to Otherise them.

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by: astraeatrepe @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 21:26:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually, My ex-wife tried...

  .. to get my daughter's friends to hate her for loving me, the 'FREAK'  My ex-wife had my youngest daughter quoting those lovely verses from the bible ,Leviticus, and she was confused.   I can see why, the fundies believe the Leviticus is against homosexuals, not transsexuals.

 All I did was show the difference, and they turned on my ex-wife.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 22:57:14 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Question

First, let me state that I'm not condoning the irresponsible nature of the story or the opinions of anyone associated with it.  However, I'd like to ask a question.  Would any of you get angry if your child was forced to interact on a daily basis with and listen to the views of a bible thumping, Ann Coulter reading, the world is 3,000 years old, creationist, gays are going to hell, Evangelical, George W. Bush loving Republican classmate?  As a knee jerk reaction, I would probably be a little protective of my eight year old daughter in the face of that.  In the end, I would probably come to my senses and have a sit down and talk about diversity and respecting the views of people you strongly disagree with. Of course, that would be very uncomfortable and difficult given the differences in positions.  As such, give the those parents a little space because people have a tendency to overreact when their kids are involved.  It is natural.  If they continue bleating on, then criticize them as being bigoted.  

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by: arsenalchick @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 20:48:17 PM CST

Answer

None of us are trying to ostricize children of evangelical, Bush-worshipping rightwingers.  

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by: astraeatrepe @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 21:36:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

What is hard to explain to children or adults

  about a person that was born in the wrong body?  I will never understand the thinking that it is difficult to understand.

 I am a woman that was born with a penis, OK, I got that problem solved, time to move on.  Yes, it is that easy!  

 What makes it difficult is when you have so many people trying to explain something they never have had happen to them.  

 As I posted before,'who would you trust when getting information about what it feels like being runover by a truck?'  Someone who has read about it, makes educated guesses on how it would feel, or hear from someone that has been runover?

 True the stories that we here when some nut case grandfather tells his grandson to use the girls bathroom when he sees the transgender child use it pisses me off.  It ticks me off when the likes of Peter LeBarbera spew his screwed up rants about ME, and my sisters and brothers.

 As for Dave M, if he believes sheltering his children from the realities in the world is what is best for his children, fine.  But Dave, who will you blame when your children get older and see the protective little world you raised them in is not reality and completely different and have problems adjusting to the real world?  Dave, do you think in the next 12 years all of the transgender kids will be removed from the planet when you release your children into the real world?

 You see Dave there is a great way to handle this situation, and it would benefit you and your children.  It is called honestly and compassion.   Yes Dave, you may be a lucky parent that has children whose mind and body are in unison.  No worry about gender identy issues, they may even be straight.  And you will say,'Thank god. I raised them right.'  But the truth will be God didn't see you fit to have a special child that required special attention.

 God gave that special child to them as She(god) knew my parents could handle the situation, and still LOVE their Child.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Fri Feb 08, 2008 at 22:46:22 PM CST

FYI Douglas County school spokesperson

Tony Hillerman's Navajo policeman in his novels, Joe Leaphorn says, "there is no such thing as coinsidence".[FW
>>> You probably already know this, but the Douglas County school person they had on (Commissioner, Superintendent?) - Wei Wong - used to be a reporter for 9news immediately prior to her taking this position. Jessica<<<<]

Karen Bachman
Vice-chair Colorado Stonewall Democrats
Co-chair Colorado Stonewall Democrats Transgender Caucus
vice-chair@stonewalldems.org
 

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by: Karen Bachman @ Sat Feb 09, 2008 at 00:41:16 AM CST

Error on FYI comment

I apologise my source for the previous job status of the spokesperson Wei Wong, "Jessica" has now informed me she (Ms Wong) worked for local Fox News. not 9News which is local NBC. Sorry...Karen  

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by: Karen Bachman @ Sat Feb 09, 2008 at 11:03:28 AM CST

Frustrated

When I first learned about Pam's House Blend I was thrilled to find a blog that shared some of my same feelings.

Today I sit down two days after the release of the aforementioned article here in Denver and I am shocked to see that the same ignorance that the right utilizes is being championed here at Pam's.

First, I am a LONG time supporter of 9News (who incidentally also first investigated and reported on Ted Haggard) and as a long time supporter/viewer I respectfully disagree to the portrait you have painted. I feel as though you gave your own slanted view instead of considering that perhaps other people may be benefiting from this report. Allow me to recant some REAL opinions and responses from people here in Colorado INCLUDING some teachers from other districts and most importantly, my partner.

My partner grew up feeling very different and being teased incessantly in school. Most teachers were not educated nor prepared to deal with her alienation. She is now a teacher and works daily to make sure her students are respectful to one another and not subjected to the same torture. She works with several teachers who respect her immensely and enjoy her uniqueness, her students love her and appreciate her "tough" attitude. So where am I headed with all of this? She was the first to find the article on 9News.com and send the link to me and her co-workers. She was the one sharing the news story with her family at dinner Friday evening. WHY? Because she was impressed on several levels. Levels you may not have taken into consideration. Though this child has probably been outed it is in the open and the reality is that there are teachers who have been prepared to support this youngster(My partner was the victim of violence and no one outed her on television). Teachers who work with my partner read the article and gained knowledge (a sort of glimpse into their co-workers life), others read the article and generally characterized Dave M as an un-educated fanatic who is using his comments to incite chaos-basically he looked the fool.

"I don't think a 3rd grader does have the rationale to decide this life-altering choice," said Dave M.

The best part about this statement...people asked my partner, "Do you believe this is true?" her emphatic answer was NO. And many of us can recall "knowing" at a young age.

I can agree that perhaps the failure to provide Kim Pearson's comments on air gave a slanted impression. HOWEVER the online written and often referred to article DOES provide Kim's response's. In my opinion you were just as misleading and two wrongs do not make a right as your written statements gave a slanted-unedited-no time limit impression that failed to recognize some of what was important about the entire story.

It's frustrating that some folks in the Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, Bi-sexual community take on the same lack of insight and intelligence that the right employs daily, picking up sound bites and running with them to prove their own ignorance. I am glad that my partner's friends, family and colleagues chose to read the article and ask questions and make a choice to educate themselves instead of vilifying the message as you have so pointedly done.  

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by: ColoradoFamily @ Sun Feb 10, 2008 at 10:36:30 AM CST