Florida: gay man beaten for saying hello

The madness wont end soon.

  Flor-DUH has yet to get even close to getting anything regarding Hate-Crimes laws passed, never mind truly being introduced.  Even when they were being discussed, the outcry from the Republican state legislature was all crimes are punishable under Flor-DUH law, and the issue was dead.

 I know passing Hate Crimes laws will not stop these kind of attacks, but it would send a message that most people wont stand for this kind of stuff.  The message now is that beating the hell out of someone is OK if they are gay.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 22:54:59 PM CST

I've got a line on a suspect...

Does anyone know where Ken "if any man opens a door for me I'll rip his arm off and beat him with it" Hutcherson was at around 3 am on Saturday?

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by: Zeke @ Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 23:05:11 PM CST

coincidence??

As the Democrats running for President continue to ignore the repercussions of promoting "States Rights" as a legitimate way to restrict the citizenship of LGBT citizens we can expect more things like this to happen.

We can't be acceptable in one state and not acceptable in another if it's ever going to stop.

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by: Patrick @ Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 23:56:21 PM CST

"Hello"

O.K., you have Ken "rip your arm off", You have the Florida Hospital which would not let a woman see her partner as she lay dying, and you have two recent murders of gay / trans youth.

Does anyone have to draw you a picture?

"Watchmen On The Walls", murders in Jamaica, more violence against gay, and perceived gay, folks all over the world.  

It's not getting better.  We will accomplish nothing by putting our heads in the sand.  

Oh yeah, violence against women is also escalating, and/or not being taken seriously.

This stuff all goes together.  If we can't stand together against this stuff, we will ALL go down the tubes.

It's not about "agendas".  It's not about dinners, nice words, and well to do folks nodding their heads in unison.  Not "tsk, tsks" necessary.  

No more "passes" for any candidate.  No dismissal of support from any homophobes  --  be they black or white, be it Republican or Democrat.  

It's beginning to look like all the anti-gay preachers are finally having an effect  --  it's time to stand up, fight back, and demand our candidates speak forcefully against violence toward our communities - all our different communities.

Out the closeted anti-gay gays.  Stand up to the bigots, BOYCOTT the anti-gay companies, corporations, and nations.  

Refuse to support those folks who abuse women as a part of their "culture"  --  be they white, black, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Animist  --  being anti-woman goes hand in hand with being anti-gay.

Fight the patriarchy at every turn  --  even when you, specifically, benefit from it.  

Unless we can all do that  --  we will lose, one fundamentalist step at a time.

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by: tsokol1 @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 00:40:39 AM CST

Gay on gay hate ...

Talk about whipping up hatred for gays and giving the green light for bashing - have you been keeping up with gay porn star Erik Rhodes blog? He is lashing out like crazy against gays calling them all untrustworthy scum and condemning the whole community in more and more bizarre hateful rants. You have to read it to believe it: http://erikrhodes.blogspot.com/

He's starting to remind me of Matt Sanchez.

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by: Ralph4159 @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 01:19:51 AM CST

This says it all ....

"I once again am trying my best to suffocate all my misery in doing drugs.

"... I hate drinking now so i have found relief of (sic) my social anxiety by doing alot of GHB."

Res ipsa loquitor.

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by: ExHack @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 01:33:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Pitiful? Pathetic? what would fit?

I read the blog. I laughed my balls off, I think even my ass chuckled.

I can go to a place down in Melville and see any number of such self absorbed, whiny overnight mattresses. For the most part I would view such people with the disdain they deserve.  

The problem that we have is that they, by their nature insist on shoving their existance in everyones faces thereby creating the perception that gay people are all like them. I don't know for sure what is worse, having straight people see us as this or having youngsters grow up thinking that this is how one is supposed to be if you are gay.

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by: Carbonchild @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 02:27:30 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Sorry, I didn't find anything funny there (but that's just me.)

At first I felt sympathy for him, because he's truly a troubled man.  The more I delved into his thoughts, such as they were, I could only see a tremendous waste.  

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by: ExHack @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:46:20 AM CST

[ Parent ]

There are several facets

I've known a few porn stars over the years having worked on the edges of the adult entertainment industry, and he's no different than countless others who have trod that well-worn path before him. These porn stars get their egos all inflated because it seems like everyone wants to be with until they realize they are surrounded by people who only care about their porn star persona and couldn't care less about them as a person. Even those who take advantage of it and sell their "companionship" for big $$ eventually make this realization. As a result the usual outcome is they become depressed and distrustful and many end up just like this guy.

At the end of the day he's responsible for what he has in life. No one held a gun to his head and made him do porn. He didn't have to go to the club hopped up on G. On some levels he's an egotistical jerk, but that's just a facade to keep people from getting too close. He'd probably be a really nice guy and a real catch for someone if he'd take responsibility for his life and make the changes in his life so he can have what he wants instead of barking and whining about how it all sucks.

Never try to train a pig. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.

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by: cali_techie @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:11:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"have you been keeping up with gay porn star Erik Rhodes blog?"

No, I have not.

He is lashing out like crazy against gays calling them all untrustworthy scum and condemning the whole community in more and more bizarre hateful rants.

And you read this material and breathlessly link to it here, why?

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by: Pollyanna @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 14:53:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The Logic of Christianity

Clearly, the man who beat the gay one was doing the work of Jesus.

It's like this: All gay people are going to die and go to Hell. Being in Hell means suffering pain that is so severe, it is beyond our Earth-bound imagination. Even worse, it means suffering that pain forever more. The pain will never, ever end. It cannot possibly be a crime to beat or even kill a gay person, because such acts are just trifles compared to the punishment God will mete out to the gay person after he or she is dead.

If you kill a gay person, the worst that can be said is that you gave God the opportunity to exercise His will a little sooner than He would have otherwise. And what could possibly be wrong with that?

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by: Jim @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 01:37:38 AM CST

There is a solution ....

.. which I imagine most of my fellow, more liberal Blenders aren't too thrilled about.  But it'd provide a deterrent for starters, and practical, immediate help when these situations arise.  Simple: Buy a gun.  Learn to use it.  Be prepared to use it if you're violently assaulted.  Gay bashings will decrease when bashers start turning up in ERs and morgues with extra orifices.  I, personally, recommend hollow-points and larger calibers (our household has settled on the .40 and .45 Auto for handguns.)

(Please note, of course, this right is restricted in certain otherwise gay-friendly municipalities and states.  Check your local firearms-ownership and concealed-carry laws.)

If guns aren't a legal option for you, or are simply distasteful, take self-defense classes and be ready to fight as dirty as possible.  If it's a fair fight, you haven't done your job.

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by: ExHack @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 01:38:43 AM CST

Three one one becomes a fair fight here. (screw Queensbury rules)

"If guns aren't a legal option for you, or are simply distasteful, take self-defense classes and be ready to fight as dirty as possible.  If it's a fair fight, you haven't done your job."

This young man had his partner and a friend with him. This is part of the problem. We tend to be far too civilized even when the situation warrants otherwise. In my eyes there is nothing wrong with doing serious damage to an aggressor such as this and three determined young men ought to be able to do so.

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by: Carbonchild @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 02:05:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Personally, my preference would be ....

To put fifteen rounds into the f***er the moment he showed so much as a roll of quarter in the fist.  

Totally agree your comments.  There's no reasoning with drunken, Teh GAY-propaganda-addled white trash from hell.  If the day ever comes when my partner and I are attacked, I want to smash skulls, shins, arms, ribs, and testicles.

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by: ExHack @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 02:13:49 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Hear Hear!

"Oh, but guns are designed to kill people!"

Yes. They are. Just about any handgun is specifically and intentionally designed for the purpose of killing people who would come to rob you, rape you, beat you, enslave you, murder you and your family.

I can't help but think that, if Matthew Shepard had a Walther .32 pistol in his pocket, along with his condoms, he'd likely be alive today.

Supposedly, Sam Colt had the following engraved on some of his classic Single Action Army revolvers, the stereotypical "cowboy pistol" of all those westerns:

"Fear no man, regardless of his size, just call on me, I'll equalize!"

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by: Chris Tucker @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:01:07 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'd never heard that one before!

To closely paraphrase Barry Goldwater - far more a true conservative (and probably closer to many of Pam's readers in temperament and belief) than any of the current GOP's neocon poseur closet cases, and a damned principled man: Extremism in the defense of your life is no vice.

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by: ExHack @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:43:41 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Dunno...

My partner has his carry 'n' conceal permit and is carrying around a Kahr 40mm in the middle console of his car (I think he's still a member of the Pink Pistols, too). I'm sorry, even though he's trained, and that I've shot it as well as his Berretta a few times at the shootin' gallery, I don't feel any safer with that damn gun in the car. It's in the middle console ready to be used, and all it does is make me wish I'd driven my car instead--fortunately, when we drive in to DC proper, I do or he has to remove take the gun out of his.

I mean, you can talk a mean game about totin' guns and shootin' it at some anti-gay thug, but it's entirely another thing when it's sitting right there loaded 'n' ready for the wrong moment to happen.

Sure, what if Matthew Shepard had a gun in his pocket? Who's to say he'd have used it at the right time against his attackers and not had it used against himself. He went willingly into that car with those goons...when things went horribly wrong for him, would he have been able to use it effectively. Besides, say he did shoot both of 'em dead and saved himself, would he have an effective defense in court? 

Just cuz you have a gun means you're always going to win. 

Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

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by: TJ McFisty @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 09:26:40 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Maybe

Would Matthew Shepard have been any deader if he had been shot instead of beaten?  Yes, he might still be dead had he been carrying ... but he MIGHT have been alive, too.

(Oh, and FWIW, I no longer own any guns at all.)

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by: Jami @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:32:25 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Calibers

I prefer the 357 SIG for my carry when I go to dark and dangerous places.  It is the caliber favored by the Secret Service, Treasury, and Texas Rangers.

Armed queers don't get bashed

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by: SuzyQ @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:21:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

9mm Sig here

because, as you said, Armed Queers Don't Get Bashed.

We begin to fight back or we die.
It is as simple as that.
The religious right has declared war upon us.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 18:55:42 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Good Choice!

I bought my Glock .40s before (or just as) the .357 SIG caliber was being introduced.  The nice thing is that the .357 SIG uses a "necked-down," or crimped, .40 shell casing.  That means that by dropping in a .357 SIG barrel and magazine, I can convert my .40s to .357 SIG in a couple of minutes.  I think that should work in reverse as well.

We also keep a H&K .45 USP, a couple of .223 semi-auto rifles, and a couple of 12-gauge shotguns.  Also a large, impressive-looking German shepherd/Catahoula, but frankly, she's not very useful for home defense.  She thinks everyone is her friend.

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by: ExHack @ Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 15:12:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Alternative: stay put - make the guy fight inside the bar

The more witnesses, and potential allies (including the bar owner and barkeep), the better. Possibilities include using cell phones to take picture, hit speed-dial 911 (esp. if you have a GPS), and so on - all of which can be done by onlookers resentful of having some lout threaten and hit customers.

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by: NancyP @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 14:34:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Fighting Back

Amen, ExHack.  I distinctly remember an organization that flatly stated, "armed gays don't get bashed" -- I think it was either the Pink Pistols or Queer Nation.  Either way, I can assure you you're not the only one out there.  It's just an unfortunate reality, in a world containing dangerous people, that sometimes the only way to fight force is with more force.

Problem is -- what's the next step?  There's still the distinct possibility that a bigoted prosecutor might be quicker to bring charges against GLBT people acting in self-defense.  And let's not forget the prejudiced juries that are more likely (even though not guaranteed) in places where gay bashings are common.

One solution would be to continue pushing for federal hate-crime penalty enhancements, in hopes that the perps wouldn't want to risk a few extra years in prison.  It sounds nice in theory; nevertheless, I fear that anyone who's flat-out crazy enough to hate people for their sexual or gender expression is probably not running the kind of rational cost-basis calculus that's essential for deterrence to operate.  Plus, these measures make ALL GLBT-friendly legislation vulnerable to the tired old political attacks about "special rights".  Our cause is right as rain, but sadly we still have to consider what the most lemming-like, soundbite-eating voter will think of it.  And what's more, these sorts of after-the-fact responses still leave us stuck with a GLB or T person suffering with their injuries and medical costs).

I'm almost afraid to say it in this modern world, but maybe if self-defending GLBT folks DO turn out to face discrimination from authorities, the only real solution would be.......

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by: CubPaws2008 @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 02:15:14 AM CST

Good points.

That said, if my life is truly in imminent danger, I'll go with the old equation of preferring to "be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

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by: ExHack @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:40:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

self-defense

How many were beaten up on a regular basis as kids?  How many future gay guys were either teased, beaten, or ridiculed as kids>

How many were thrown out by parents?  How many were willing to accept totally dysfunctional relationships just to have someone to "love"?  

self defense takes a mindset that too many have had beaten out of them.

I'd bet too many of us are frightened by our internalized rage.

I think it's time to work that stuff through.  With the willingness to actually hurt someone, many are much more capable than they think.

I second the motion about being armed  --  but, you can't carry in most clubs, should not carry if you either drink / drug  much, or tend toward "drama".

In any case, it would do you good to get to a range, rent a pistol, and try it out.  Asking for help, getting lessons, then doing it might also give some self confidence.  

It is really time we stopped being "patsys".  

In addition, there are other weapons  --  mace, tasers, etc.

Just learning how to punch helps.  

The martial arts take time, dedication, training to be of any value.  

One 30 minute self defense class might be worse than none at all  --  but, if any of this stuff is available  --  try it.  Like chicken soup - "It can't hurt".

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by: tsokol1 @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 03:11:55 AM CST

Fasten you seat belts...

There have been three murders so far this year and who knows how many beatings. The rate will very likely jump, if the past is any indication, by 10% to 15% just because it's an election year.

During election periods everyone seems to gang up on us. As they always do christians and other hate groups are ramping up their bigotry in churches and on TV and radio. The Republicans, as usual, are going to scapegoat us and lie about our agenda for equality. And the Democrats, as usual, are washing their hands of us. To prevent the Republicans from claiming that they're GLBT friendly (as if) the Democrats gutted ENDA and then flushed it and the Matthew Sheppard Hate Crimes Bill down the toilet. And as always the Democrats refuse to repeal Billarys DOMA and DADT.

Their actions send a message about us that street thugs hear loud and clear. It's a message that emboldened the thugs who butchered Lawrence King, Sanesha Stewart and Simmie Williams. The thugs know that they have friends in high places; priests and pastors who say that their mythical god  hates us, Democrats who've abandoned us to the thugs and Republicans willing to let a few more of us die to get catholic, baptist and mormon votes. They're all despicable.

We have a long time till November and we'll have to watch each others backs because it's obvious that the Democrats don't give a rat's ass about us.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

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by: donal1944 @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:35:19 AM CST

hmm.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne...
Arm yourselves.
I don't feel too comfortable saying that. I'm not big on killing people. Why did the founding fathers give us the right to bare arms? What will stop this maddness? Anyone remember Ryan Keith Skipper? ever been to http://rememberingourdead.org ?
I think at the end of the day, bullies don't go away until you kick their asses. Now, the root of the problem really needs to be addressed. Until such time as our politicians & society step up, we need to defend ourselves... by any means needed.

http://EQFL.org

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by: banshiii @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:36:27 AM CST

They aren't just bullies - they are criminals.

These people who walk around thinking they have the right to threaten to physically dismember another citizen are always the first to claim this is a nation of "laws". . .unless they get a hard on to form their own little lynching mob whenever they push their own buttons. It's time to treat them like the criminals they are, not only through the law, but in the rest of society as well.

I hope that little dickhead is caught. But if any other criminals think its open season on law-abiding citizens, we have an obligation to defend ourselves and our community by any means necessary.

That sorry-ass mayor and his fake "religious" bullies know they are promoting this kind of behavior. Has the mayor made any statement condemning the attack yet? I don't see a thing in that story. . .which means someone in our community needs to call a press conference and accuse the Mayor and that cabal of fundie crazy people of deliberately encouraging crime. Then maybe we should haul out some gay person who can get ordained on a web site and proclaim that OUR "religious" beliefs hold that people like the Mayor and those crazy fundies are obsessed with being sexual predators by lying, manipulating and stalking the GLBT community when they should clearly be paying attention to their own unfulfilled relationships.  

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by: kevinbgoode @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:36:56 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Blood of LGBT's

They preached hatred against us. They made us the bogeyman of their political campaigns and we started getting killed and beaten more frequently, just as we have in each of the last few election cycles.

Every vote for a Republican is paid for in the blood of LGBT's.

Every gay who works for or votes for a Republican has that blood upon their hands as well. You cannot collaborate with the enemy, and they have declared war upon us.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 18:59:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

pepper spray

i don't understand all this revenge-seeking gun talk.  firing a gun at that sidewalk cafe could easily have killed someone other than/in addition to the attacker.  and even if it did only kill or wound the attacker, who's to say that if the shooter is lgbt, it wouldn't be yet another jena-type situation.  i for one will never do anything that putsw me at the mercy of our "justice" system.  

if people are going to carry a weapon, it should be something debilitating but not deadly, like pepper spray.  it will give you time to get away, and it is less likely to necessitate dealing with the police and courts unless you want to pursue legal action against the attacker.

Click HERE and sign up: Campaign For Military Partners.

Lurleen on Twitter.

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by: Lurleen @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:03:23 AM CST

Well, I recommend Bobbitt shears

cutting his dick off not only stops his brain from receiving any more violent messages, but likely saves (if he really is a straight boy) countless women from the obvious physical and mental abuse this lowlife likely doles out.

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by: kevinbgoode @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 11:25:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

this too is sensible N.B. watch the wind direction

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by: NancyP @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 14:36:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Statistically...

an armed citizen is more likely to hit the target than police officers. I need to dig through some of the older research material I have sitting somewhere but I will mention that what I think is the reason is the distance involved. Most self defense shootings happen within a few yards of the person defending. LEOs may have a further shot average but I have not seen any studies to examine it.

Besides most of the time just showing the criminal you are armed stops most incidents so shootings are pretty rare (that is why they get so much air time on TV).

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by: StillLiT @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 15:30:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Pink Pistols

Armed Gays Don't Get Bashed
http://www.pinkpistols.org/

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by: tiponeill @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:06:39 PM CST

Use of Force

First, there has been an outcry in some "liberal" circles over the suggestion women carry tasers.  I guess it's not considered "good form" for women to defend themselves.  After all, women are "asking for it".  In a similar fashion, gays are being "too gay", and, therefore "asking for it".

In many places, there are segments of the LGBT "community" that will NOT be protected by the police  --  nor will those who attack them be sought.  Crimes against many LGBT folks are not considered crimes by the local authorities.  Back some years ago, some police had a code for those sorts of crimes, NHI  --  "no human involvement".

When a minority is victimized, they either fight back, BECOME the police, or organize in other ways to protect their neighborhoods.  Years ago, in NYC, the Irish didn't go into Italian neighborhoods, and vice versa.

Now, I'm not calling for that level of prejudice or fear  --  but I am calling folks to LOOK at different options to defend themselves.  To say "it's an election year, and violence against us will escalate", without offering any solution seems to cast us in a permanent victim role.

When bullies see a victim  --  they do what's "natural" to them  --  they bully.  As more and more folks seem to be stuck in High School forever, as the ability for critical thinking is replaced with fear (another result of "radical-right-wing-religious-thinking"), the victimization of "different" folks will escalate.

Until "radical individualism" is once again replaced by the concept of community, the idea we are all in this thing together, LGBT, and PRESUMED LGBT folks and women will be in danger from random attack  --  whether it be sitting at an outdoor cafe, or waiting for a bus on Staten Island.  

It's not just about having a pistol or revolver, it's about a mindset that ALLOWS us to defend ourselves.

By the way, not to get into the "caliber wars", but a 9mm would be easier to shoot accurately, and seems to have provided sufficient power in many military and law enforcement situations over the years.

Oh yeah  --  just about any force, used against another person, can be deadly.  Of course, we can't even publicize, or organize a boycott of Jamaica  --  so who really expects us to defend ourselves.

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by: tsokol1 @ Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 12:42:16 PM CST

Protect it or lose it...

Ok, I've read too many posts to keep quiet any longer...

The way I see it, we all live in an amazing country that affords us tremendous opportunities to live as we want, be successful, do great things and enjoy freedoms that so many others in the world will never get to experience. However, I believe, it's precisely this unique environment that allows us to too easily forget how amazing these privileges and freedoms truly are. NO, it is not perfect by any means, and in case after case, there are abuses of these freedoms. I am not that naive. We need to continue to strive to make better laws, enrich people's lives and take care of those who can't do so for themselves, but not by taking certain freedoms away.

Most of us have it far too easy, compared to others in the world. We have developed a sense of 'entitlement' to a complete and totally safe day to day existence.  Unfortunately, that's not how the game works. Freedom has a very expensive price! The price is inescapable 'invidual responsiblity'.

Maybe it's because so many of us have not had to actually fight for our freedoms. I don't mean marching in a parade, boycotting, striking or other general means of opposition. I mean direct, dirty, scary face-to-face direct and violent fighting. The kind so many of our armed services brothers/sisters are facing on our behalf (whether you agree/disagree with the policy is irrelevant here). This is how freedoms have been protected by our forefathers(and mothers)... I think we can all agree that none of us want to have to face this level of fighting in our lives. But, you get the point.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating violence. I don't think we should all go out looking for 'freedom-abusers' and 'make their days'....  I'm just a regular hard-working, well educated, fortunate and grateful American, who feels that it's each of our own responsibilities to protect ourselves (and each other) from those who would abuse the freedoms we take for granted. Each of us have to determine how best to contribute to that effort. That's where the whole 'gun ownership' issue comes up.

I have chosen to be a gun owner, become well trained and prepared in using fire arms and be committed to protecting myself and others, who might otherwise be victims. I hope I never have to use my training, and I don't look forward to how the imperfect justice system might treat me, should I be placed in the system. What I won't do, is debate the fact that we are the most fortunate citizens in the world, and be willing to have my right to defend these freedoms, slowly eroded through mis-guided good intentions and the hope to make a perfectly safe free society.

Making laws to ban gun ownership is proven to be ineffective. Tell me another instance where a government ban or restriction has actually resulted in the intended objective? Even IF it could be done, criminals would still have guns and be better positioned to abuse more of us!

Had I been with the guys at the restaurant when first accosted, the result would have been different. I have no doubt, the 'trouble-maker' would have just gone on his way, after a brief but direct interaction, and  my dinner mates would have enjoyed the remainder of the evening.

I'll get off my soap-box (I'm short too)...and close by saying, it's precisely the freedoms we so enjoy, that allow each of us the privilege to make personal decisions, one of which is whether to own a gun or not. We should embrace the rights we have and promote wise choices, not restrict our own freedoms, in hopes that bad things won't happen to good people... Ok, flame me!...

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by: Gr8OCGuy @ Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 14:02:05 PM CDT