Exhibit A: Pat Buchanan - why we desperately need to discuss race

could buchanan's mind-blowing essay

be an extreme example of what obama referred to as "white resentment"?  

i am inclined to totally ignore the buchanan types, since i don't think they represent the average racist.  in my experience (as a white person.  personal experiences will vary), most people's racism is much less draconian.  

i see the buchanans of the world in the same light as the fred phelpses of the world - they are so far afield that they are actually useful because they embarrass common-grade bigots.

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by: Lurleen @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 18:28:21 PM CDT

I disagree.

I would venture that a fairly large majority of white bigots feel EXACTLY the same as Pat Buchanan. ... and I live in California.  I hear this brand of racism all the time here. Nothing at all new or exceptional or radical... just stated openly.

Straight for Equality MD 

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 18:47:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is it racism or classism - or an intersection of both?

I see this attitude (at least in regards to Buchanan's comments on illiteracy, illegitimacy, and crime) all the time in people who don't think of themselves as bigots.  Or people who aren't perhaps "stereotypically" racist.  It's so much easier to hold those opinions but never question why.

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by: SuburbanHomo @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:18:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

There are plenty of people who think like Pat, but don't say it.

People who tend to think that there is truly equal opportunity and that all of the systemic problems have been solved by signing a civil rights bill. These people think that the "black problem" is caused 100% by blacks. Because they aren't burning crosses, they think that they are just "realistic" about the situation, and don't see or don't want to see institutional and historical contributions to racism that still operate today. (google "Meacham Park").

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by: NancyP @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 18:39:19 PM CDT

Seriously...

That post from Buchanan was just accidentally released a few days early, right?

It was an April Fool's joke, right?

Even Mr. The-Democrats-Are-Responsible-For-Pol-Pot-And-The-Killing-Fields-Because-They-Forced-Nixon-Out-Of-Office-And-Nixon-Could-Have-Prevented-All-The-Killing couldn't have gone this far off the deep end, could he?

Kat

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 18:48:24 PM CDT

Perfect example of how potentially racist this society can become

That a person like Pat Buchanan who in the past gone on record attacking Martin Luther King Jr for being a divisive individual, who said Nixon's Southern Strategy was a good idea, who expressed admiration for David Dukes's nonsense can get on television and been seen to have some degree of credibility about racism says VOLUMES more about racism and privilege in this country than anything else ever can.

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 18:51:10 PM CDT

Discussing Race

Howdy Pam

I am a white guy.  Raised in Virginia and South Carolina ... old enough to remember "white only" water fountains and bathrooms and schools and churches.  I now live in California after a sojourn in Alaska.  So let's talk about race, Pam.  I get you that the righties just don't get it and Sen Obama does.  I think the Clintons "get it" too.  But that is not really the discussion that needs to take place, is it.

It is one thing to describe the problem and another to describe the proposed solutions to date (as Buchanan attempted - really tacky that he termed "race" as a poverty issue in my book)  But let's narrow the discussion from "race" to white and blacks in the USA in 2008 and beyond.  Let's leave Asians and Latino's to another discussion.

How do we even talk about black and white in the USA in 2008?  

I was on a bus in San Francisco a couple of years ago.  The driver was a black man.  He stopped the bus and three black women got on aged approximately 19 to 21 or so.  They had boxes of chicken dinners in their hands.  The first two women got on and immediately proceeded down the aisle to the very rear of the bus, where they took a seat.  They were talking very loudly.  Sitting in the front of the bus, I could hear every word they said.  They were really loud.

The third woman stopped at the pay kiosk at the front of the bus.  She proceeded to put change into the kiosk.  She only put a few nickles into the kiosk.  The driver informed her she had not put enough change into the kiosk for herself, much less the three of them.  She said she did not have any more money and asked him to let it slide.  He refused.  He said they had money for chicken, they should have saved money for the bus.  The woman called, yelled, to the back of the bus to her friends for money for the fare.  They screamed back that they were broke and for her to just join them in the back of the bus.  They proceeded to yell back and forth for a good minute or two.

The driver was getting angry.  He insisted that the three women get off the bus.  They refused unless they got their fifteen cents out of the kiosk.  It is impossible to retrieve money from the kiosk, as everyone in San Francisco knows.  They started yelling at the driver ... the one woman from the front of the bus and the two women from the rear of the bus.  It was getting nasty.

A black man came forward.  He was irritated.  Asked the driver how much the women owed.  The driver answered and the man put that amount in the kiosk.  the man and woman proceeded down the aisle; the man to his seat, the woman to her friends in the rear of the bus.  The driver finally drove the bus.  Howevr, the driver kept looking in his mirror at the three women and yelled at them that there was no eating allowed on the bus.  They yelled back that they weren't eating on his damn bus.  Actually, they were.

The driver turned to the Asian woman seted next to me in the front of the bus and informed her that in the City there were Black people and there were niggers.  Those three were nothing but niggers and gave all black people a bad name.  His comments shocked and offended me.  The three women's ploy for a free bus ride shocked and offended me.  But I said nothing.  I am not sure I should have.  Just not sure.

The fact that a racial discussion brings this story to mind shocks me too.  But it does.

I must balance it somewhat with the incredible black man about 18 years old who organized the bus stop of about a dozen folks of various races to allow a disabled white woman to board a bus first even though she was the last to arrive at the bus stop ... a thing just not done!  He spoke up and moved us all until we all just stood aside, allowing this woman free space and all the time in the world to board the bus.  He was quite the speaker and organizer.  I tried to enroll him in labor organizer school, he was so good.

I really don't know what I am talking about, do I?  LOL


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by: Dagon @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 18:52:22 PM CDT

No, I know what you're talking about

You're sitting there wondering WTF is going on in that situation. There's a lot going on there. Not to make light of this, but the minute I read your comment a Chris Rock stand up routine ("Black People vs. Niggaz") came to mind -- it's exactly what this bus driver was talking about.

Now honestly, what do people think of what Chris Rock said in that clip? Did it make you uncomfortable? Was he being racist?

What the driver (and Chris Rock) are conveying are class distinctions. Not all black folks are poor, under-educated criminals. Now the above comments by Rock and the bus driver conveniently skirt the issue of the underclass and the cycle of poverty that foments the pathologies of gang culture, disdain for educational achievement and other negative stereotypes that are a reality in those segments of the minority community. But Chris Rock speaks for a number of blacks who shake their heads every time they see a thug perp walk that inevitably will be seen by whites as representative of all black people.

So what do you think you were seeing -- is it self-loathing, classism, or something else?

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 19:18:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well Well Well

Howdy Pam

The Chris Rock video throws a new light on things.  Made me think of the Jerry Springer Show with the white folks he has on there.  With his white folks, the issue is difinitely classism.  So with the Chris Rock routine, I would have to say that classism is afoot.

But on the bus in San Francisco, I know that I felt racism in my bones.  Not against the driver even though he was the one using the word "nigger" or the man paying the fare for the three women.  But I defintely had racist feelings against the three women who held up the bus trying to get a free ride and who yelled and were generally obnoxious.  I just know if they were white I would have had a different feeling.  I HATE admitting this to myself; but I know it to be true.  To the driver it may have been a matter of class.  To me it was matter of class and race and culture.  I add culture.  By "culture" I mean the way of interacting with other people.  Their yelling and the words they used with one another ... it was very different from the way I was brought up and the way I interact with people.  Maybe that is the as "class."  I don't know.

But I would have been very comfortable having a cup of coffee with the driver.  I would not be comfortable having a soft drink with any of the young women.  Race is a part of it and so is class and culture.

I am REAL uncomfortable with this discussion.

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by: Dagon @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 20:54:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Racism, Classism ....

I (Not a black or purely white man; a white/Latino gay man) agree and understand Chris Rock's distinction.  I currently work in a job where I see every race, nearly every social stratum, and every nationality, each day, all day.  I tend to think Chris's "niggaz" (and sorry to say, that's how I often think of them) come in every color.  I've found that trash, no what color, are equally aggravating, and equally a**holic.  And honestly, over the years, I've come to be most irritated by the white-trash variety.  I'm not sure how much present-day bad behavior by lower-class blacks I can chalk up to past oppression, but I'm reasonably sure of this: for Springer-style white trailer trash, there is Just. No. Excuse.

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by: ExHack @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 22:15:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good on you, Dagon

You're really uncomfortable, but you're willing to have it anyway, and examine all sides and elements.  That's a really good place to place to start the conversation.

Perhaps if the ladies on the bus had been white they would have been called white trash, but white trash or nigger, the behaviour was still trashy. Somewhere along the line they were given to believe such behaviour and attitudes were acceptable, and I think it is too easy to blame race or poverty or class (and whatever it is that defines those strata), because you'll find decent and trashy people tend to cross all categories. There are no easy explanations because you'll always find exceptions but I rather think that a society that touts the rights of the individual without the healthy balance of the responsibilities to society adds a bitter taste to the brew.

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by: Brian @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 03:07:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kudos for pushing the envelope

These discussions are difficult -- and necessary. I mean look at Pat Buchanan (or Bill Kristol in my update). These guys want nothing to do with a conversation on race, and it's not about avoiding "white guilt" which suppresses many whites from engaging on the topic. Buchanan and Kristol are interested in maintaining white privilege, so if it's brought up then you are pointing out the elephant in the room and thus they cannot take the Tony Snow tack of "racism is a distant memory."

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:10:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you Dagon

Thank you for being honest and being willing to engage in dialog. I was very disheartened by the small number of comments in Pam's first thread on this (I haven't checked back so maybe there are more now).

As a black man living in San Fransisco, I find myself embarrassed almost every time I step on a Muni bus or train. Every time I hear the word "nigga" coming from a black person (usually teenagers or kids), I cringe. It happened again yesterday. However, this time I decided to keep listening and watching and not try to block it out, which I usually do. It turns out that these were 2 well groomed, intelligent black teenage boys who were just discussing their accomplishments as members of their school's basketball team. They weren't any louder than most teenagers of any race would be and except for their casual use of that term, weren't anything to be embarrassed about. Unfortunately, having witnessed too many scenes like the one you described, I normally wouldn't have gotten past their use of that word to figure that out.

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by: claudew @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:25:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Something more fundamental than class, or race

Reading the account on the bus, and watching Chris Rock, and thinking about my own experiences as a gay man, in corporate america, in small towns and metropolises -

there are parallel behaviors to those described on the bus and in Chris Rock's routine in every subset of humans - including the upwardly mobile, the all-ready on top, the religious, the oppressed, you name it.

I think it boils down to mechanisms for asserting dominance, even if only for a few minutes on a bus.  Whether it is three young women of color being way too loud on a bus and sticking it to MUNI by getting a free ride, or a armani suited suit yammering away just as loudly about his latest business conquest in some expensive restaurant, it really is the same behavior:
an attempt to dominate others, to hold them socially captive, for personal aggrandizement.  

Chris Rock makes a good point about certain behaviors, but, I wondered as I listened, couldn't there be a point where his own use of profanity move him from one category to the other?  A number of essays have appeared here as diaries recently, making parallel statements about certain kinds of GLBTQ people, but in the process, voicing very ugly prejudices as fact - moving from one category to the other.

I think our dialogues about race, and religion, and gender, and sexuality, will become much more productive when we recognize that the issue of dominance and authority is a separate, though over-lapping, issue - distinct from the consequences and causes of prejudice itself.  Prejudice simply provides the sighting mechanism for those trying to inflict domination - as so many have said in various ways:

when "they" cannot get benefit from harassing Jews, they harass blacks,
when they cannot get anywhere harassing blacks, they harass women,
when they cannot achieve something by harassing women, they harass gays,
when they cannot get elected by harassing gays, they harass immigrants,
when they cannot make money by harassing immigrants, they harass Muslims,
when they cannot become important by harassing drag queens, they harass transgendered folk,

and on and on and on, infinitely.  I think that is why attempts to fix any one prejudice have so little effect - taking this or that target off the firing range doesn't disarm the shooter.  And it explains why allowing or perpetuating any one prejudice effectively reinforces all of them.

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by: FriendOfJonathan @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 15:19:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Excellent insight, FOJ

As a feminist, I agree with Riane Eisler's analysis that the problem is not men but the "dominator society"-- she is working to bring about a "partnership society" which would be based on equality of men and women. Replacing a patriarchal dominator with a matriarchal one wouldn't do anything to end the situation you described-- but evolving beyond the need to dominate others would.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

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by: Hypatia @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 21:52:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

white people changing our lenses

first off, I am new here. I posted once before without any sort of intro., so here goes.  

pam - thx for your commitment of brining the long over due discussion of race to the forefront and creating this space for us to do so in a safe manner.

Dagon, i appreciate your honesty in your writing. I had a similar bus ride experience in the SF bay area. I used to ride the bus in Oakland to work everyday. A few stops after mine, a group of Black teenagers on their way to school would board and head to the back of the bus. When the bus would pull up to the stop, you could see the energy of the bus sort of take a defensive feel before they got on. They were often loud, using foul language, brought food on the bus and left their trash before they got off, would play fight to the point of pushing their friends into other bus riders. I made a point to sit as close to the front of the bus as I could, as did many other riders, included black, white, latino, and asian bus riders. even younger black and latino students who had the same school uniforms on as the unruly group of who sat in the back would sit closer to the front. I don't think any of us enjoyed their daily barrage of bad language and threatening behavior. I tried to not be fustrated that I had to deal with this on a daily basis, but I was.

then one day, i decided to really watch these kids, without my lense of racial stereotyping. Which, I think all white people have, regardless of how liberal or progressive we say we are. but that is another topic!

anyway, I realized that these kids are acting out. they seemed to be showing signs of kids who have symptoms of post traumatic stress syndrome.

they were hurting.

They were acting out the daily conditions they face - Institutionalized racism, high rates of poverty, domestic violence, unemployment, low high school graduation rates, high incarcation rates of young black men, and gang violence. In Oakland, young black men are dying almost everyday from gang violence, but most white people living here see it as a black problem until their stores and homes start to get robbed, then they show up at a community meeting to fight crime. again, another topic!

so, after that day of reallying SEEING these kids, it lead me to a book by Dr. Joy DeGruy Leary titled Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome: America's Legacy of Enduring Injury and Healing

In this book, Dr. Leary pointed out the connection between unresolved grief and trauma of slavery, jim crow, and past and ongoing instituionalized racism that is passed on from generations of Black people and unhealthy behaviors in the Black community. She doesn't make excuses. but provides insight. It opened my eyes and really provides a strong case for all Americans, yes, even white people, to look at ways to heal our racist history and deal with the continued effects of slavery.

I think about the black man on your bus who stepped up to pay these young women's bus fare, maybe you percieved him to be annoyed, and maybe he just wanted to get to work, so it was easier to just pay their fare so the bus could get going. But, maybe he saw these women's pain, their experience, especially living as young black women in San Francisco. A city in which black people are being slowly pushed out, covered in this SF gate article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...

The tricky thing about white privilege is as white people, we are taught that we don't have to see our whiteness, and with that it often clouds our view on race. I think discussions like this are crucial to cleaning or changing our lenses. thank you again for your honesty Dagon.

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by: Randy C. @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 15:07:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

forgot links........

here are links to Dr. Leary's book:

http://www.posttraumaticslaves...

http://www.amazon.com/Post-Tra...

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by: Randy C. @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 15:26:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This could be a rant or ramble. (let's see where it goes)

I come from a place where racism would apparently make your head spin. Despite having more than a hundred years ahead of us and ,WE having resorted to killing each other in droves, we beat you. You killed each other in a civil war and did not achieve your goal, we avoided a civil war and we are starting to surpass you.

Don't get me wrong. We have tremendous problems. In the years to come we must replace the unwanted with qualified people at a ratio of two for every one to keep everything working. It can be done but only with hard work in place of recriminations.

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by: Carbonchild @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 19:58:36 PM CDT

Right Hand Pic

Thank you for posting the pic of a man burning on the pile of lumber.  Most people do not know that when talking about lynching, it was not just hanging a man.  It was a torture.  Burning a living man, hacking him with axes and knives, and then hanging him, often setting him afire again while hanging and dying.  With the executioners being photographed for posterity.
There has been a deliberate effort to smear whipped cream over the horrid details.  It reminds me of what the current administration is doing with Abu G. and Guantan.
Pam

Pam,
J'aime ma Peau

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by: Blonde Pam @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 20:55:20 PM CDT

Pam et al

I went to Buchanan's website and read his whole piece.  Towards the end he wrote this:

"As for racism, its ugliest manifestation is in interracial crime, and especially interracial crimes of violence. Is Barack Obama aware that while white criminals choose black victims 3 percent of the time, black criminals choose white victims 45 percent of the time?

Is Barack aware that black-on-white rapes are 100 times more common than the reverse, that black-on-white robberies were 139 times as common in the first three years of this decade as the reverse?"

I don't know what I think or even more importantly feel about these numbers.  How about yall?

And Pam?  I got to thinking about a man I dated a few decades ago.  It must have been in the 1980's.  He was very cute.  A black man in Alaska.  I liked him a lot but we broke up when I found I could not trust him.  Nothing to do with race.

What brought him to mind was his attitude.  He felt very strongly the wrongs done to blacks over the course of history.  He felt "owed."  He did not feel like he had to earn; he felt like he was owed just because of his racial history.  He was not working while we were dating ... I picked up all the tabs ... I didn't mind, he was really cute!  Still, his attitude struck me at the time as unusual.  But his whole family shared it to one degree or another.  Funny that I remember that about him ... plus how cute he was!  LOL

Has anyone else encountered folks who felt owed a livelihood and the "best" of everything as recompense for the history of slavery and Jim Crow?

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

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by: Dagon @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 22:29:56 PM CDT

the numbers

well, if his numbers are correct, it is easy to explain by simple probability.  since whites are the majority in many/most places and blacks a numerical minority, by random chance black criminals would almost always end up attack white victims more frequently.  and vica versa for whites attacking blacks.  also, if i were a thief, i'd probably rob white neighborhoods more often than black one too because, besides there being more of them, they an average are probably more lucrative since whites still have a huge economic advantage in this country.  and then, of course, there could be an anger factor.  is it really surprising that a black criminal that's been shit on by white society would choose to victimize whites?  and finally, why rob, etc your own when you can victimize outside of the broader "family".

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by: Lurleen @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 22:57:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"best of everything"

Has anyone else encountered folks who felt owed a livelihood and the "best" of everything as recompense for the history of slavery and Jim Crow

Yes. And that isn't productive - most people like that tend to complain rather than do anything to rise to the challenge to affect the system in any meaningful way - run for local office, join school boards, etc. On the other hand, if you're under-educated and under-employed because of the system in place, the pathology can develop that every instance of obstacles in life's way is someone else's fault -- THE MAN. That's a hard cycle of thinking to break. It doesn't mean, however, that every black person living in a lower socio-economic strata thinks this way -- that's the common mistake many whites make. For instance, my mother grew up in poverty in Brooklyn back during the Depression -- everyone in her neighborhood was poor, regardless of color. But her family believed in hard work, and the power of education and that has played itself out in rising out of poverty.

***

Now shave off part of your statement:

Has anyone else encountered folks who felt owed a livelihood and the "best" of everything...

Yes. A lot of young people new to the job market seem to have the same problem. Their parents have always told them how special they are, they can do no wrong. Their parents have complained to teachers if their child doesn't get the A, or that it's never their fault when the kid misbehaves, or daddy bails junior out after that wild keg party where he commits property damage.

When these kids get out into their first jobs, they seem to think the are entitled to a quick rise in the ranks with little output, are appalled at getting their first less-than-stellar evaluation, and have a poor work ethic. An interesting study confirmed this).

* Nearly three-quarters (72 percent) of incoming high school graduates are viewed as deficient in basic English writing skills, including grammar and spelling. And, when asked about readiness with regard to applied skills related to the workplace, the greatest deficiency was reported in written communications (memos, letters, complex technical reports), and in professionalism and work ethic.

..."We have experienced horrendous turnover rates among high school graduates we hire," says Chyrel Fortner of Pan Pacific Products. "We hire these young people, and then they don't come to work. And they don't see a problem with being absent. And when they do come, what they seem to care about is when they can leave work." Within one month, half of those hired and terminated were recent high school graduates for whom this was their first full-time job. Yet, at the same time, a sense of entitlement prevails. "Kids want to get that top job right away, the nice air-conditioned office with the computer-never mind that the way managers achieved those jobs was by starting at the bottom and working their way up."

Jim Kammerer, Director of Human Resources at Great River Health Systems, agrees. "Young people come to apply for a job in cut-off jeans. They have no understanding of how to act in an interview, no presentation skills, and a total lack of understanding of the impression they're making on the employer. Instead, the attitude is 'Hey, take me for what I am. I am an individual,' and that's what matters most."  

The key is that we're not talking about all young people, or all black people in discussing these issues. The mistake is that too often human nature and implicit bias makes us lump all of one group together for easy assessment.

Chris Rock's frank illustration of classism in the black community probably shocks a lot of white folks, but why should it? I assume most people cringe when you see images of "white trash" on Jerry Springer -- and that is an image of Americans that gets broadcast around the world.

I'll admit that I cringe every time there is a tornado down South and the MSM always manages to find the most backwoods person to interview that embodies every stereotype about the South imaginable because I know how bad regional bias exists (and the progressive world is just as polluted in its thinking on this front).

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 06:42:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Numbers seem to be pulled out of Buchanan's nether parts

Black on black and white on white crimes are by far the most common, for obvious reasons of proximity (segregated residential patterns). Since crime rates are higher in poorer communities, a higher percentage of blacks would be expected to engage in crime. Type of career crime matters as well. Drug dealing is a likely violent job that has a predominance of blacks dealing and enforcing at the street level (though this might no longer be the case, given the meth epidemic in rural America), and a mixed race clientele/victim group, with whites predominating as customers simply due to the much greater population of whites. Same with street-level crime, holdups and such. And surprise, surprise, career and amateur street crooks rob people who might have significant money in preference to people who have little (Willie Sutton Rule). So I would expect a higher level of black on white street crime than vice versa. Whites predominate by percentage and absolute numbers in non-street level, nonviolent retail/wholesale/manufacturing/corporate crime. Rape is high all over, mostly committed against acquaintances, neighbors, family members, and black-black and white-white are the predominant combos. Reporting, and lack thereof, skews the findings. If a white policeman rapes a black hooker or bag lady, who's going to put this into the statistics?

I do think a lot of racism is complicated by classism. But the three women on the bus were suffering from terminal jerkism.

Pam is right, entitlement is seen all over. Feh. One of my black classmates (a labmate) was repeating a required course for the third time, and thought the system was against him. The rest of us just thought, "suck it up and study and suffer like the rest of us, you have the ability, stop whining." We figured that anyone could get off to a bad start or have some major life trauma and flunk a course once - but twice? The racial, and sexual, element seemed to be that he had the third chance but was still acting the tough guy know-it-all (yes, his labmates were three white women - we were the "names starting with P" table) and trying to boss us rather than share duties. But then I could tell you any number of stories about the rich white brats I grew up with. Feh.

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by: NancyP @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:42:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pat Buchanan is an idiot

However, there have been rich white people who have been a major force in the advancement of African American civil rights.  
Booker T. Whashington for exmaple had a very similar background to Barak Obama, one white parent, one black.  B.T. Washington's philosophy and tireless work on education issues helped him enlist both the moral and substantial financial support of many philanthropists. He became friends with such self-made men from modest beginnings as Standard Oil magnate Henry Huttleston Rogers and Sears, Roebuck and Company President Julius Rosenwald.
Not all white people are the devil, as Wright would have one to believe, nor are they saints as Buchannan would have everyone to believe.
 

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by: Dunkindonuts @ Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 22:36:18 PM CDT

Please Provide a Link

I have heard several of Jeremiah Wright's sermons, but I have not heard once his saying that all white people are devils.

Please provide me with a link to a sermon where he says this.

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by: Jim @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:24:28 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Obama condemened Wright

Jeremiah Wright rants and rails against "rich white people who run this country," demonizes white people, calls Jesus a "poor black man" oppressed by "Italians," says that Barack Obama "ain't privileged" -- this, even though Barack and Michelle Obama are Ivy-league grads in the top two percent of Americans in income. And so forth.
Obama condemned Wright in his speech.  That's good enough for me.  I voted for Obama in the primaries, and will vote for him against McCain.

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by: Dunkindonuts @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:25:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Jesus, Mary and Joseph

Rich white people DO run this country. Duh.  That is hardly the same as calling all white people devils. Of course, it is possible that you are not intentionally misrepresenting what Wright said.  So, like the man asked, can't you provide a link?

---

by: Pollyanna @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 15:55:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Minor quibble

Rich people run this country.  Ethnicity and skin color do not guarantee or prevent the accumulation of wealth.

---

by: FriendOfJonathan @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 16:37:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Demonising Italians

Demons traditionally mean devils.

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 16:38:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I was "one" who thought he demonized

By his discriminatory remarks about white people and Italians.  But I am not one of his admirers.  Obviously, others like Pollyanna and Jim agree with him and probably dissaprove of Obama being critical of him.  
My statement, "Not all white people are the devil, as Wright would have one to believe,".  Emphasis on one, meaning me.

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 16:50:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Could some one help me out here?

Obviously, others like Pollyanna and Jim agree with him [Wright] and probably dissaprove of Obama being critical of him.

There's a name for what Dunkin just did there, but I can't recall what the term is?  Anybody?

---

by: Pollyanna @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 19:24:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'll help you out

Probably not a Barak Obama supporter.

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 19:32:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Password

:whisper: the word is 'projecting'

---

by: FriendOfJonathan @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 21:04:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes. I see how you did that!

First you supplied the word "demonising," then you supplied the "devils."  Can I supply the phrase, "made up out of whole cloth"?  

---

by: Pollyanna @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 19:17:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pollyanna of course

Supply any phrase you like as long as it feeds your path to truth, but don't mix cotton with linen...Leviticus....Obama rules.  Wright is dismissed as a crazy old uncle.  Get over it.

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 19:24:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dismissal

No, Dunkindonuts gets dismissed as someone who can't be bothered to listen to the man he is dismissing so he could see whether or not his dismissal is actually justified.

It's possible that Jeremiah Wright has said something to try to convince his audience that all white people are devils. But I have not heard his saying anything that remotely resembles that. (Saying that the country is ruled by rich white men does not come close to qualifying.)

I'd by happy if you could point me in the right direction.

---

by: Jim @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 23:32:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Chill out sweetheart

I was supporting Obama...I may have said he said, he said, he ssid.....but my heart is in the right place.  No words are carved in stone.

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 19:30:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Password -

:whisper: sweetheart, the word is 'prevaricate'

---

by: Pollyanna @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 19:45:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OK

Kill me, burn me I am whitey.  I rise. rise. rise. rise.

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 19:55:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

slavery as opportunity?

I have this problem. When someone starts off making a ridiculous statement I have a hard time taking anything else they say seriously.  In fact I have a hard time listening to (or reading) anything else they have to say.  Buchanan's premise that slavery was really just a good opportunity for Black people is so sickening and deplorable that I could barely force myself to continue reading.

I can't help but wonder if he even believes the foul, putrid muck he spits out.  I mean seriously - does he really believe that slavery was the wonderful means by which lucky Africans were brought to a land of plenty where social programs designed to improve their lives were heaped upon them and in return they all miraculously turned into angry, killers and rapists of white people?

Clearly, he is the perfect example of why real, frank discussions about race in this country have not been happening.  You just can't have a real discussion with someone like that.

---

by: Cousin J @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 08:51:42 AM CDT

Someone at Pandagon found "Exhibit B"

Bill Kristol in the NYT on Obama's speech:

The only part of the speech that made me shudder was this sentence: "But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now."

With respect to having a national conversation on race, my recommendation is: Let's not, and say we did.

Well, I'm not sure how he would know the value of having it or not having it since too many people run for psychological and political cover any time it comes up. We won't get anywhere in addressing the problem of implicit and explicit bias with that attitude.  

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:34:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

what some African-American Muslims have told me

While the Muslims I've known condemn slavery for the enormous inhuman atrocity it was, they find a silver lining in it, in that it first brought Islam to America... and although all the slaves in the USA were Christianized, their importation provided a basis for many African-Americans to regain Islam in the present day.

Of course, the benefit of this for America depends subjectively on how favorably one views Islam. Naturally, for a Muslim to increase their numbers is a good thing. White America has gone on an Islamophobic binge of hatred since 2001. But the African-American Muslims I've known are almost entirely hard-working, moral, upstanding citizens raising families with a strong sense of responsibility, who have earned a reputation within the African-American community for strengthening its positive values and self-reliance.

From my point of view as a queer woman, the effect of Islamization is another matter entirely: it scares me, frankly, even though I am Muslim. The complexity of being out queer and Muslim at the same time presents me with difficult issues I have yet to resolve, but that's a topic for another day. All I can tell you is-- help persecuted queer Muslims by supporting al-Fatiha Foundation.  

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 10:43:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

A brave goal

Do you include Farrakhan and his "Nation of Islam" as an African-American Muslim ?
My understanding is that Farrakhan subscribes to an American black religion founded in Detroit 50 years ago. His faith is not recognized as Islamic by real Muslims, and his teachings bear almost no resemblance to those of Islam. Farrakhan is as much a Muslim as the Shriner is an Arab.
Contradict me if I am wrong.

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:35:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I wasn't talking about Farrakhan

so your post caught me by surprise... I wish that extremists didn't get all the attention! Farrakhan runs a splinter group that's tiny in comparison to the vast majority of American Muslims who have nothing to do with him or don't think of him as having any significance in their faith... I was thinking of the African American Muslim communities I've lived and worked in... just regular folks who get no press and no attention... but are the overwhelming majority of indigenous Muslims in this country, who take after Malcolm X.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 22:28:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Surprised you were surprised

Most Americans have a knee jerk reaction when Muslim is mentioned to think of "Nation of Islam".  Thanks for the info.  Where are your African American Muslims in America ?  Are they quietly living in the suburbs ?

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 20:37:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How many African-American Muslims have you known?

I'm used to PHB people having a higher level of intelligence and critical thinking, and less jerky knees about media stereotypes than most Americans. So I could respond that I'm surprised you were surprised I was surprised... but please let's not go there. ;)

I just wanted to get across how it looks to someone whose perspectives were formed in the real-life American Muslim communities she's been part of, which take it from me is a long way from the provocative and inflammatory voices the media like to play up. What if the only name people associated with African-American Christians was Rev. Wright? And assumed all black churchgoers talked like that? As I said above, Farrakhan is the leader of a tiny splinter sect and by no means can be said to represent African-American Muslims as a whole.

Sure they live in suburbs, to the extent that black people in general live in suburbs (or small towns), but as far as I can tell, most of the ones I know of live in central cities. They are quiet, law-abiding folks who don't make waves which is probably why you've never heard about them.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 19:43:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Discussing Race: Me and Them and Numbers

In discussing race, there are several ways to go.  We can discuss what others say such as Obama, Wright, and Buchanan.  We can criticize, harp on, demand citations, applaud, and demonize.  Or we can point to history and studies.  We can look at slavery and Jim Crow and pictures of lynchings and our heroes of yesteryear and our demons of the past.

Or we can share personal stories and personal observations from our own lives and personal family tales.  That is what Sen. Obama did in his Race Speech.  That is what I have done in my posts above.  Pam shared a bit about her Mom and Nancy P about a lab partner of her experience.  As Sen. Obama and I learned, it can be uncomfortable to share about yourself in public about race.  Very disarming.  But any serious discussion about race has to start there, I think.

I will admit to another racist feeling.  When I met my daughter's boyfriend/fiance, I was glad he was a white boy.  It was my mother's voice speaking through my heart and I was NOT proud of it; but I heard it clearly.  And it was happy that he was white.  There, I admit it.  Throw your stones.

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

---

by: Dagon @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 11:34:04 AM CDT

I blogged about this parental dilemma before

Though the example was quite extreme -- the case of Duane "Dog the Bounty Hunter" Chapman's rancid reaction to his son Tucker dating a black woman.

If Lyssa [his daughter] was dating a n***er we would all say F*ck You. . .and you know that. If Lyssa brought a black guy home ya da da...it's not that they're black, it's none of that. It's that we use the word n***er. We don't mean you fucking scum n***er without a soul. We don't mean that shit. But America would think we mean that. And we're not taking a chance on losing everything we got over a racial slur because our son goes with a girl like that. I can't do that Tucker.

...Stripping away the crudeness of his remarks, you can see the underlying emotion being articulated -- Chapman's disappointment at his son for even contemplating, let alone actually dating, someone outside his race. It's pretty obvious that Tucker Chapman grew up in a home where the word "nigger" and other racial slurs were used casually. Through the profane bluster on the audio,  there is disbelief directed at his son in that moment; he's reallly saying "Didn't you get the message when I used that word in our home for all those years? Did I have to spell it out for you? Stay with your own kind."

I think it's safe to say that many parents who feel the same way about interracial relationships and their children are equally reluctant to spell that sentiment out directly to them. What has spun out of control for parents uncomfortable with the idea of their son or daughter dating outside their race is the ability for subtle (or in Dog's case, not-so-subtle) messages about what is "appropriate" to get through to their kids, because it's hard to project and foster tolerance in public, and then justify the opposite in private. In interpersonal relationships it's quite difficult for people who hold opposing public and private views on race they have to interact with a real person, not a stereotype, and that bores into long-held assumptions and beliefs. It. Does. Not. Compute. They only way to hold on to the security blanket of private racism is to isolate oneself from people in that group that challenge those beliefs, because the conflict is too messy to deal with.

Tucker Chapman ended up on the receiving end of  "It. Does. Not. Compute."

Chapman is unnerved that despite raising his son "right" he didn't get the message -- the culture of increased tolerance that Tucker grew up in allowed him to see Ms. Shinnery as a person he could be in a public romantic relationship with. He has forced his father to admit his inner racist exists -- and Dog's reaction is a fight for its right to exist. The realization that a cultural norm has shifted makes people like Dog long for the "good times" when dropping "nigger" in public or private was acceptable among friends and family. That's progress, in my opinion. This also shows, however, that we are so far away from eradicating racism and bigotry in this culture.

I think many people don't want to admit that their tolerance stops at their kids marrying or for some even dating outside their race. I think the question to ask one's self is why do I feel that way? Dog obviously has strong feelings about this and probably wouldn't have been that candid if he knew he was being recorded (his son had a recorder to capture "the moment").

For instance, is the feeling the same about all black people -- it's not as if we're a homogenous demographic. Is it about education, perceived cultural difference, skin color/shade?  

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:12:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've Been Thinking

Pam,  I've been thinking and feeling since I posted about my daughter and her white boyfriend/fiance.  I think I sold her short by about a couple of tons.  My daughter has a great deal of good sense.  Great judgement.  I trust her a great deal.

I will approve of whoever she chooses.  Of whatever race, color, or creed.  Her best friend in high school and college was Alaska Native and gay and a wonderful young man.  I like  him a lot.  She loves my dearly departed husband and my best friend, a Latino guy who officiated at our handfasting and his funeral.  Her girlfriends have been of all races.  The fact that her fiance is white is luck of the draw more than anything.

If she chose a black man, an Asian man, a Native Alaskan man, an Indian woman ... whoever, her choice would be for excellent reasons.  I trust her judgement.  I see that now.  I trust my daughter more than the echoes of my mother's racism.  So be it.  Glad we had this conversation to work that out!  LOL

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

---

by: Dagon @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 13:13:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i've

been curious about this, is it necessarily racist for someone to want their son or daughter to marry someone of their own race/religion? I don't really think so but is it a problem because that line of thinking somehow separates us and leads to us against them mentality?  

---

by: jstrick @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:21:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My grandson, a little Obama

I'm quite content that my daughter married a gentleman from Africa, and that now I have a black grandson to help care for. This gives me the opportunity to point out to him the ancestral similarity he shares with Barack Obama. I'll make a Democrat of him yet! :)

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:05:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Racism

> is it necessarily racist for someone to want their son
> or daughter to marry someone of their own race/religion?

I'd say yes.  It seems like it'd be a preference (prejudgement? preconception?) based solely on race; that strikes me as being the very definition of racism.

I guess that if it makes no difference to you (generic you) but you're sure that your child can't possibly be happy with someone of another race, then it might simply be accepting your child's racism.

---

by: Zed @ Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 14:22:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

wow, i was not ready for that

so much for lunch...

http://EQFL.org

---

by: banshiii @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:06:39 PM CDT

Re: I Agree

I am gay and progressive but I have always thought that blacks are much better off here than in Africa.

Look at the mortality and life expectancy rates in Africa. The diseases - children dying of malria and malnutrition. The fact that HIV started in Africa but whites are the ones that busted their as*es to find good treatment.

When I see black people walking down the street talking on their cell phones and wearing designer clothes - I think if they had not been brought here they probably would be living on dirt floors and wearing rags.

I want Obama to win in November - I like him - but many blacks in America go through life just blaming someone else. Its a culture of victimhood and its sickening. It is a pervasive mentality.    

---

by: G. @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:18:48 PM CDT

I don't know where to begin here

But I'm sure Blenders will pitch in to help break this down.

Now you're right about the victimization culture that exists in some quarters of the black community. Self-empowerment is needed and it is cultivated in many quarters despite a consumer culture that downplays education and hard work (regardless of color, btw). I somehow get the feeling that you ascribe the victimhood label to blacks generally, but refrained from saying so in your comment. Do you have any general feeling that this applies to some or most blacks? Do you feel that this is true of blacks of West African descent (those who can trace their lineage to slavery), or do you include those of Caribbean descent, who came here as immigrants?

You are generally correct in stating that by coming to America the descendants of those enslaved have eventually benefited from American society. You neglect to mention, however, that the dominant white culture has done everything legally, politically and socially possible to prevent blacks from attaining full equality along the way - KKK, lynch mobs, Jim Crow, the Tuskegee experiment, the list goes on and on. That legacy has had a profound effect over generations that are conveniently tucked away when it comes to acknowledging white privilege.

Again, it shows that there's a lot of thinking to undo or perhaps more accurately, reframe to acknowledge where we go from here in addressing the issue. The Pat Buchanan's of the world have nothing positive to add to the dialog save the exposure of the rank bigotry.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:38:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Irish Example

G.'s statements remind me of a line in the musical "Finian's Rainbow" in which an Irish immigrant (probably illegal for that matter) is arguing w/ his daughter about coming to America; she misses Ireland. The daughter remarks that the streets here are not paved with gold - there are ill-fed and ill-housed people in America. Finian responds with something like "but they're the best ill-fed and best ill-housed people in the world."

In reading Buchanan, all I could think of is the Irish Potato Famine. It is likely at least some of Buchanan's ancestors came to this country desperately fleeing starvation, and were unable to get help in their own homeland because of the very bigotry he is now repeating. Undoubtedly, the Irish represent the most economically successful immigrant group (in terms of those groups who came in large numbers because of economic disparity), but no one can deny the horror of the famine, or the estimated 1,000,000 - 2,000,000 who died as a result of it. Was it a "good thing" for the famine to happen because the descendants of the 2,000,000 - 4,000,000 who eventually fled it did okay? Are we supposed to just forgive the British?

The interesting thing is just how much the Irish are now integrated into American culture - whether it be the common use of Irish names by those of non-Irish descent or the celebration of St. Patrick's Day by the masses. Certainly I never have to worry if the actions of the less reputable Kennedy's reflects badly on the Irish, because no one lumps us together like that any more.  

---

by: CPT_Doom @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:03:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you speak

as if you know what would have happened if African nations actually had the opportunity to define themselves over the last half century. A lot of African nations didn't even define their own borders yet somehow you just know that we would be living on dirt floors had we never been forcefully brought to America. There is quite simply no way to find out how anything would have turned out without slavery and Imperialism.

---

by: jstrick @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 13:51:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Agree

Also - blacks in large numbers are a problem anywhere. Look at Detroit. This is what happens when an entire group of people blame others for their own shortcomings.
Have Jews spent generations blaming Germans and not doing anything [or destroying cities]? No - they achieve and contribute positive things to this world.

Yes - I resent black people and their mentlaity - as do most americans - progressive or conservative.

---

by: G. @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:25:53 PM CDT

ah, the generalization

Yes - I resent black people and their mentlaity - as do most americans - progressive or conservative.

All black people are alike -- that's what that statement says, regardless of socioeconomic status, lineage, education, etc. It's why the above bus driver in Dagon's comment (and Chris Rock in the video), said what they did. The broad negative racial generalizations are often applied to all blacks - that's the implicit and explicit bias talking.

And so where do we go from here to think about how we make snap judgments about groups of people based on stereotypes? It's obviously easier to do that than think more deeply about why we believe what we do about "others."

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:44:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Stereotypes die hard, but die they must.

Only through education, pushing conventional boundaries, will that change.
Golf, basketball, and tennis were once considered to be "white" only sports.  
Do white men now feel inferior in athletic competition to blacks, and is that an element that contributes to racism, or do sports unite ?  
Runners from East Africa are by far the world's leading distance runners. Kenyans alone win 40 percent of the top international distance events. In fact, East African runners have become so dominant in distance races, Boston Marathon organizers reportedly considered imposing a quota on East African applicants.  

---

by: Dunkindonuts @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 13:46:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

my two cents

  I see a pattern of perception all the time. Some white people do take it for granted (or naively) that all hard work and self discipline is rewarded the same way, and it's not. Some black people (including myself) work hard, it's just not seen as such, and still there is no due after the work has been done over and above requirement.

  During the seventies when the spectre of affirmative action' came into national debate, that perception was at the root of white resentment.
The assumption was always that the black person was LESS qualified, if that black person got the job or college placement the white person wanted. It didn't seem to occur to the white person THEY weren't or couldn't be as qualified.
Indeed, how would THEY know since such things ARE confidential and couldn't be disclosed to the person OTHER than who was actually hired. And the assumption of the inferior black applicant was very destructive to job opportunity all over again.

  Something strange happened one time here in CA about 15 years ago. A new school in a predominantly white and affluent county was named after Dr. King. A blond, blue eyed girl seen as one of the picketers said that automatically the school would be identified as black, and the quality of federal and social support would come down. The adults at the forefront of this protest were DE FACTO saying that being black identified DOES hold the perception of inferiority for black people.
These people, then should have been at the forefront of protesting racism in federal school benefits...
Of course, those white folks didn't see it that way. They were too blinded by their own self interests and assumptions.
It's extremely frustrating.

  Dagon, despite how well I speak, and comport myself in general...I might as well be those three raucous women on the bus for all anyone cares to see me.
 I was married to a white man for thirteen years and we dated and lived together developing a friendship over three years before dating.
Eventually his parents showed their TRUE colors and did and said something VERY cruel to me.
Their lack of sensitivity was brought home to me in a shocking and vicious way.
And then I remembered that they really don't have the kind of social contact with blacks that would test their racism or inform them of it.
They live in Chicago, and our visits were only about once or twice a year, if that.

 But I remembered the little things later.  One of my husband's cousins who we socialized with all the time, was getting headaches from stress at work. Not migraines, but tension headaches. So she quit work to reduce the stress and feel better.

 I, on the other hand...had several cysts in my ovaries and uterus. Eventually a hemorraging tumor weakened me and was excruciatingly painful over a course of seven months. I lost a lot of blood and couldn't have radical surgery until I was on a course of Procrit for a month. And even then, I required transfusions for a complete hysterectomy at the age of 39.

  I was off of work for three months. Di was off for a year. But the way my in laws talked to me, I was just being lazy. TReated me as if I never worked a day in my life.
I don't have a traditional nine to five, I work in the film industry and make good money, but they forgot all that.
The point is, that tumor was devastating, and later, because of all the stress THEY put me through and eventually my marriage was destroyed...I was diagnosed with systemic lupus and seizures that have tried to kill me over the last eight years.
My cousin's wife got FAR more sympathy for her troubles than I did. And no one was interested in making me think other than passive racism didn't play a part in it.

  I think the legacy of Jim Crow are the pathologies so eagerly reported among black families and it'll take more than a single generation removed from Jim Crow to change that.
Also, some white people are only listening to their OWN voices, and the only charity that black people REALLY need is to LISTEN and NOT challenge the experience that most individual black people have. Some is anecdotal, some is institutional, but it shouldn't be contradicted as if white people know more about what racism feels like than a black person ever could.

---

by: Regan DuCasse @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 13:01:30 PM CDT

Thank You

Thank You!! Thank you immensely for taking the time to write all of the above for us to read and understand.  I truly and humbly appreciate it.


The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

---

by: Dagon @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 13:21:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That was so valuable

Regan, we need stories like yours to keep everything in perspective. You have gotten a good look at both sides of the fence and can speak to these issues with a greater depth of insight than most.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:14:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Generalizing

Yes I am generalizing - like the cab driver that whizzes past a black person because they have been ripped off too many times by black people.

White people are desperate for black people to change their mentality for the better. That is one reason Obama has won so many states. White people in Iowa, idaho, etc. see a black person who is not blaming someone else and who is achieving. Life is too short to blame others and not try. Its not fair to your kids either. What kind of legacy is that to leave them?

---

by: G. @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 13:47:17 PM CDT

the problem with generalizing

Is that the cab driver may be turning down a legitimate fare by a paying customer out of fear because of race. That is unfair to the person of color standing out there waiting for a cab.

It is not a positive legacy to tell your kids that "whitey is always out to get you," and it's what Obama chastised Wright for in his speech. He called it out because it's non-productive behavior -- it doesn't get you an education, it doesn't teach you how to interview for a job, it doesn't give you opportunity. It's merely venting, and that can only take you so far. Personal responsibility is important.

However, it's an uphill battle the whole way to overcome these generalizations to prove one's worth if you are a black, because the negative stereotypes are applied before you even open your mouth. That whites, because of the existing power structure, don't have to deal with that on a day-to-day basis, is the difference in the negativity behaviors expressed in the black community, be it crime or other anti-social activity that is only self-destructive and perpetuates the attitude of victimization.

It's equally non-productive to make a statement that somehow blacks are inherently have some sort of inferior mentality that causes the behavior. That's the general sense (and defensive reaction) that you often see when the issue is raised.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:05:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dilemna of Race

I was attacked on the streets of DC 3 1/2 years ago. I'd just moved into a predominantly African-American neighborhood about 1 year before (yes, I am a gentrifier, at least I will be once I save enough $$ to renovate). Two black teenagers assaulted me, sucker-punching me with a brick to my face. It could have been a gay-bashing, a racial incident or a really poorly-done mugging (they got nothing from me). The resulting injuries required 4 1/2 hours of surgery to rebuild my face and implant a titanium plate to hold it all together.

I was stunned how many people told me, afterwards, that I should move out of DC because "those people" could not be trusted. This includes some well-educated affluent African-Americans who lived in the tonier suburbs. They were clearly distinguishing themselves from the poorer members of the African-American community.

Here's the problem. Although I was able to fight back against the attackers, so they did not have a chance to injure me further, I was a mess. Had it not been for the neighbors on that street and passersby, I might have been in far worse shape. Except for one white police officer and one Latina driver who called 911 on her cell phone, the people who helped me that night were African-Americans. That includes the fire fighters and EMTs, the former military medic who came out of his home and began giving me initial medical care (and who was extremely wonderful in calming me down), his 75-year-old neighbor who also called the police, and two other people heading home who basically stood guard over me until the police could get there.

Which group do I use to stereotype African-Americans - the attackers or the assisters?

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by: CPT_Doom @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:20:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

that's

the thing, we run the gamut, just like every other group. I hate it when black folks get into the "We are better than those lower class blacks" thing but that's what we have also which I'm sure happens in other groups. Sorry to hear what happened though.

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by: jstrick @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:29:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sterotype

From your story, I think it is obvious who you and all of us ought to stereotype .... teenagers!  Anyone from 13 to 19 should not be trusted at all, I don't care what their race or religion or sexual orientation!!!  They're all rotten to the core!   (grin)

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

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by: Dagon @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 15:31:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Rhetorical Question

Sorry, should have made that clear. I don't want to use anyone for stereotyping, either good or bad. The whole point of the civil rights movement was to truly allow for individuals to be judged by their own characters - by what they have to offer and how they help build up our society. No one should be judged on arbitrary characteristics at all.

Of course, that is easier said than done, but I had no intention of moving out because of this attack. I knew the risks of DC when I moved back into the city from the suburbs, and I also knew how dangerous the neighborhood had been during the crack years. But I also knew how the neighborhood took matters into their own hands to end much of the drug-dealing and other crime that plagued the area. It was because of those actions that I felt comfortable, and proud, to move here.

I gave the story more as a retelling of the parable of the Good Samaritan. We never do know when we will be in need or who will step in to do so.  

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by: CPT_Doom @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 19:26:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Stereotypes

Stereotypes become stereotypes b/c there is truth in them.
Of course it is unfair to attribute behavior to someone just b/c they share a characteristic [such as race].

But often people make decisions based on those stereotypes b/c that is all they have to go on. That is human nature and often makes the most sense.  

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by: G. @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 13:55:40 PM CDT

no, it doesn't make sense

It may be easy, but it doesn't make sense.

Of course stereotypes exist because there is truth in them. However people are capable of making complex assessments all the time. We choose not to think past the stereotypes that we are taught. That could be because of deeply held prejudices, lack of exposure to others, ignorance, or simply a lack of interest in critical thinking and self-reflection.

The decision to try to combat our implicit biases is something we must actively do -- people have to decide that they want to travel along a more difficult path for the greater good or take the familiar easy path for expediency's sake (at the expense of the oppressed demographic). That's a personal decision, and people have to be able to acknowledge whether they are willing to question their stereotypes.

It's why you're seeing Bill Kristol's desire to avoid the topic at all costs. It means self-assessment and acknowledgment of a desire to not change anything about his worldview.  

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:12:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Pam

Or maybe out of necessity:

When a cab driver does not want to get ripped off for the upteenth time - or someone does not want to get mugged again - or someone does not want their hard earned money to go to waste by having their property values go down - or their kids attacked in school b/c they are white. These are real world issues to people - not academic ones.

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by: G. @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 10:29:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The "real world"

These are real world issues to people - not academic ones.

There are also real world issues to minorities who are:
* followed in stores as if they are all felons
* have trouble voting because machines in minority precincts suddenly come up with problems (see Ohio, 2004)
* can't get a cab though they are law abiding
* pulled over for driving an expensive car that they own in a white neighborhood

...you get the idea

For whatever reason you can only see things from your point of view (that or "the real world" doesn't have an effect on black people), not from that of the oppressed group that you assign all negative traits to.

Bottom line - are you saying "tough luck" to law-abiding blacks who are painted with the same broad brush you are using to justify "profiling" of this nature?

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 10:50:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Regan

Regan,

Thanks for your post. It was enlightening. Sorry that happened to you.

I think I do to black people what the religious right does to me as a gay man. Go figure.  

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by: G. @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 13:57:56 PM CDT

I'm glad you said it.

I've been holding my tongue (or keyboard in this case) because if I said what I (and 99% of other black people reading your comments) thought, I'd come off as an angry black man, which you would then use as proof that you were right all along. It's a no-win situation.

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by: claudew @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:25:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

A Question For Pam

Pam, in 2008, in your work and family life and travels, have you as a black person faced prejudice or discrimination?  On account of race?  I have always been nosy and I am curious.  In the last year?

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

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by: Dagon @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:28:04 PM CDT

fair enough question

In the last year at work: No. It's a progressive, academic workplace (not that racism doesn't occur in those environments). I'm a senior manager there, so that may also have some bearing on not being on the receiving end of bias.  As I mentioned before, it's not uncommon for vendors to meet me and be visibly startled that I'm not white if our relationship has been solely phone-based prior to meeting.

In travels: The hailing a cab while black has occurred in the last year (in NYC). I haven't been followed in a store in the last year.

Online: I have been called the subject of racial ephithets online, but of course people love to do that because of the cover of anonymity.

Locally: Not overtly in any way that I can prove. The one amusing incident I can point to, was a time I was standing in line at a store and there were two white people ahead of me who paid cash with a large bill ($20) for a small purchase. I was the only one who had their $20 checked with those special markers to ensure it's not a counterfeit. Like I black folks have money printers? However, for all I know, they randomly pick customers to check these things.

Kate's actually been on the receiving end of bias more in the last year because of her Arabic surname. She must be on  a screening list and gets pulled for a search more often than I ever do.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 14:48:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

from an excellent diary at Blue NC

From an excellent diary over at BlueNC by Kosh on Buchanan:

In the inevitable discussions of race that take place in our country one defense routinely brought up by the Right is that America has given up its racist ways, and except for the occasional aberration, such as dragging a black man to death in Texas, or telling blacks in New Orleans that they pretty much deserve to die for being too poor to fly out of the city and check into a hotel, things are pretty good for blacks in America.

Like all conservative viewpoints, this one is completely wrong. While some may argue that the decline in popularity of the Klan and the lack of recent lynchings means White America has mended its race-hating ways, it has really just moved onto different, more socially acceptable tactics. Thus, while police turning fire hoses and German shepherds on blacks is now officially frowned upon, the police now routinely stop black drivers for alleged driving infractions, allowing them to harass, search and if they are lucky, provoke them into some indiscretion that can lead to an arrest, with a tasering and/or beating on the side.

White financial institutions can no longer openly discriminate against black consumers in loans, but they can, and do, build huge numbers of payday loan centers in poor, predominantly black neighborhoods so they can legally rob them blind.

While corporations can no longer run "white only" hospitals, they can, and do, provide substandard medical care for blacks and other minorities.
Blacks are paid 72 cents for each dollar a white man is paid (Hispanics have it worse though, at 58 cents), businesses are more likely to hire a white ex-con, than a black man with a clean record, and it is far harder for blacks to rent an apartment than whites.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 16:30:58 PM CDT

Remarkable

Those are remarkable citations.  I was especially moved by the study of employment where they sent out black men and white men of similar height and build with identical resumes except the white men had a felony conviction for possesion with intent to sell cocaine.  It was the white men who were most often called back for an interview.  The white felons were preferred over the black men!  Incredible!

The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

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by: Dagon @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 10:41:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Hi

How about we post the bad experiences we have had as white people with ill mannered and violent black people.  

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by: G. @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 10:32:35 AM CDT

please do present personal experiences

The point of this exercise is to be able to break down why we feel or believe a certain way about race. In your particular case, based on your prior comments, you have indicated that ascribing negative stereotypes to all blacks is a matter of expedience. It appears you are saying that it is too much of an effort for you (or whites generally, it's not clear) to judge encounters on an individual basis given a "risk factor" of some kind (property values, safety, etc).

By that standard, of course, it means that there is little or nothing blacks could do (given the onus of proving one's worth is on them) to break through that wall of generalizations and stereotypes, since validated bias enters the picture before any encounter occurs.  

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 10:58:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes G.

Howdy G.

Please do post any incidents you personally have had with members of the black race in 2008.  I would interested to hear about it.  I have not had any incidents at all.  Not in 2008, not in the last year.  Not in real life, not on line.


The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

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by: Dagon @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 10:38:59 AM CDT

Re: HI

Ok - I agree with almost everything Pam and others have posted. My issue is this:

Why don't law abiding, hard working black people acknowledge and condemn all of the black people that have wrecked havoc on US cities and commit disproportionate amounts of crime? That is what I don't get. Instead they all get very defensive and label you a racist.

As a gay man I will be the first to admit to a straight person that many gay men are way too promicious - and that is not even a crime let alone a violent crime. If gay people committed crimes at a rate that blacks do I would  NOT be defending them. And I would not be calling people homophobic for pointing it out. I would honestly say that there is something seriously wrong with the culture and mentality of gay men.

I guess Bill Cosby did this - and look how much flack he got.

How can you expect anything to change unless you address these issues - THEN when you have done that let's talk about racism - not the other way around.  

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by: G. @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 11:52:50 AM CDT

again, generalizations

Do you know that many hard working black people acknowledge and condemn the pathology - along with those that defend the behavior. Bill Cosby did get flack, but you seem to be certain for some reason that those who did slag him were the majority of blacks.

I've caught flack for quite a few of my posts that delve into the issue, but it hasn't stopped me from writing:

* Acting White syndrome
* Discussing racism and misogyny - one step forward, two steps back, and a lot of pointing fingers
* Addressing the problems of Imus and hip-hop
* Essence Mag takes on hip hop's images of women

What I can't tell you is whether my blogging has had any impact at all; I certainly don't have all the solutions to the problems at hand. All I can say is that at least I'm talking about it "out loud," rather than in hushed accusatory tones in private. That's the whole problem here. People stay in their corners and the problems, misperceptions and conflicts never get addressed, all sides are not aired out.  

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:04:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: I agree

I agree that we all need to talk about it otherwise we will not understand and address each other's perspectives.

As a kid in the 1970s I would watch old movies from the 30s and 40s and would feel depressed and angry that an entire group of people [black] were treated very badly and blatantly denied equality. I have always had empathy. I used to think - how could a black man in the 1930s or 40s provide for his family? It is a horrible stain on our nation. But it is 2008.

Obama as President would help move everyone forward. He sees things from both perspectives and is uniquely qualified to move America forward on race issues.

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by: G. @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:34:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Pam

Pam,

You can use someone crazy like Pat Buchanan to discredit the issue of white resentment but it is very prevalent.

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by: G. @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 11:57:55 AM CDT

I'm not denying or discrediting

I'm grateful for Pat Buchanan to expose the extreme end, but as you said, the belief is prevalent. I want more conversation, not less.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:05:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Second Page Blues

It is a shame this discussion has hit the second page and will go to la la land.  Or has this discussion reached its conclusion until next time?


The fight for full LGBT Equality is NOT over.  Be strong and be ready to really fight!  And read my blog in your spare time! http://ravenhurst-ravenhurst.b...

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by: Dagon @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 18:22:38 PM CDT

don't worry, look on the front page tomorrow

I have a fresh post going up that will rekindle the dialogue.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 19:19:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]