Sally Kern tells her side on the tee-vee

More fun in OKC

A pro-Sally Kern rally is supposed to happen April 2 at the State Capital building.

Brown shirt optional

O_o

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" (or non) is so 2006.

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by: Denabeth @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 05:22:53 AM CDT

Why don 't we follow her suggested playbook?

Sally and her ilk bleat about the Homosexual Agenda©®™ funding outreach and entering the political fray, etc.

So, why don't we listen to what they're saying and try to give them what they're fearing in spades (nicely, of course.)

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by: Hazumu @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 07:09:49 AM CDT

I am disappointed

Who was this man who was supposed to be on our side? I'm not one for yelling at people during a debate but he could have been a little more assertive.

From what I saw, it looks like she mopped up the floor with him.

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 07:19:02 AM CDT

Me too

Sally is a complete "motor mouth" and interuppted every time the pastor spoke. Sally certainly believes she is a know it all and expert when it comes to scripture.  

That wasn't a debate it was an opportunity for Sally to proclaim her literalist interpretation of scripture is correct and any other is wrong.  Just ask her.

 

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by: Donna @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 08:55:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

WWJD?

I love shows on politics that open with that question.  Thankfully, it's just some religious public access show.  Or the NBC affiliate in OKC.  Whichever.

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by: eastsidekate @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 08:48:57 AM CDT

details on the TV show

This video shows what glbtq folk and other progressives are up against here in Oklahoma. the moderator, Kevin Ogle, gives sentimentalistic right-wing commentary on ch 4 daily during the newscast. the man between him and Silly Sally is Kirk Humphreys, a  republican mover and shaker, who wears his religion on his sleeve. the man between Ogle and Scott Jones is Mike Turpen, a leader in the Democratic party in Oklahoma, and a classmate of mine in college.

i wish Scott had been more assertive, but he is not.
nevertheless, this is about as good as it gets here in the bible belt.

interestingly, in the middle of last century OKC had more gay establishments than Dallas...before the morality police came to power in the 60s.

we think we have found someone to run against Sally in the general election. as of last week, no democrat had registered as a candidate...but i think that is about to change.

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by: joe in oklahoma @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 09:31:09 AM CDT

Besides

I get why an openly-gay pastor would want to sit there and argue Biblical points with someone on the other side of the fence. But for a forum like they had there, I think it was entirely the wrong argument to try and tackle and the wrong tactic altogether.

First of all, there's the audience: most anyone listening in the local area is going to believe anything that Kern says about what the Bible supposedly says about homosexuality as a given without even thinking about what she's actually saying, and will also automatically dismiss any argument to the contrary. So, no matter how cogent his argument, the pastor automatically loses.

Secondly, and I think more importantly, why is it not at all challenged that she has any right to be promoting her religion in her official capacity as a public official? Everyone on that show gave her a pass on this issue and never seemed to question it. She was elected to represent ALL of her constituents equally (which she is showing that she cannot do without bias), and I'm sure took an oath to uphold the Constitution (which requires Separation of Church and State).

THIS is where the line has to be drawn: you're allowed to wear one hat or the other but not both! (And it's too bad we can't seem to stem the tide of how important people seem to think it is what religion Obama is, or have a discussion at the national level about the importance of religious neutrality in our elected officials instead of everyone trying to out-Christian each other.) I applaud all of the people who study the Bible and are willing to work inside the church to change it from within, but the main battleground has to be to keep politics out of the voting booth and get it through the heads of our representatives "what does the Bible say" is NOT supposed to be the litmus test for how they should vote!

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by: JWSwift @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 09:38:50 AM CDT

Nearly a century ago

H.L. Mencken commented that "The most unbelievable social convention of the age in which we live is the one to the effect that all religious opinions should be respected, no matter how ignorant."  And in the 21st century that hasn't changed a bit.  If anything, the situation has worsened.  If only Sally Kern was an isolated case.

But my big quibble with this video is with the sweet, passive gay pastor.  Another poster wished he had been more assertive.  But realistically, how could he be?  He could have pointed out that the book of Leviticus says it's an abomination for a man to shave, and asked the right-wing guy why he doesn't have a beard.  Or he might have mentioned that Leviticus says insects have four legs, and asked Sally whether she believes that, too.  But ultimately, the gay pastor is in the same racket as Sally's husband; he's just selling a different flavor of snake oil.  If he does what he needs to do to undermine Sally's arguments, and makes the obvious case that most of the Bible is balderdash, he'd be shooting himself in the foot.

Aside from the fact that this guy's performance only reinforces the image of gay men as passive wimps, he simply didn't do anything to undercut Sally's rubbish.  I can't imagine that the OK gay community had any input on who was scheduled for this program.  But as long as we are relying on gay clerics to argue with straight clerics, we're doomed.

Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.  
-Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary

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by: QScribe @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 10:56:11 AM CDT

...seconded.

Yours and above comments... we need to step up and defend our own relgious... or lack of same, biases as well as they do ... or the cause and religious tolerance together will be doomed.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

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by: Orion45 @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 12:51:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sigh. . .whenever I see a "debate" like this, I always feel like I'm watching

a poorly-acted re-creation of some episode of "Charmed"...with people throwing bible verses around like incantations hoping to turn each other into toads.

Of course, what never is discussed is why my constitutional rights are supposed to be intrinsically linked to Sally Kern's personal selection of "religious" beliefs, especially in a country which is supposed to PROTECT my rights against the coercion of cults which seek the destruction of my life.

Kern's comments are so offensive on so many levels that I hardly know where to begin - but the arrogance of her claim that "the American people believe" this. . .and "the American people believe that" once again attempts to cast us, who are American citizens, into the "other" based on nothing more than her I'm-afraid-of-God selection of "religion."

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of being told that my citizenship is completely dependent upon being a human sacrifice for someone else's "religious" selections. On every newspaper story about this outrage, every television commentary about Kern's crazy-ass remarks, the comments are hijacked by dominionists tossing around biblical verse incantations rather than addressing the constitutional question of why ONLY GLBT citizens have to be subjected to the "laws" of someone else's church - while straights who are members of the same church never have their "sins" attached to legislative punishment.

When more of us are willing to just stand up and say "I don't go to your church, Sally Kern, and I'm not interested in your selection of fear and smear as God's law" then we might make some progress. After all, people like Kern already believe that those who make other "religious" choices in their lives are not really "Christians" - or at least not AS "Christian" as she is, so why the hell are we afraid to say anything?

Moreover, I wish someone on that program would have looked at Ms. Kern and asked her which biblical teachings of her "church" supported her "right" to hold public office and engage in conversation with men. After all, if a woman can't be a minister in her "faith," one would think she was "destroying the family" by intentionally seeking public platforms to express opinions from a gender which the bible clearly claimed had no more value than property to a man. Surely Ms. Kern can explain how God came around to changing "His" mind about the role of women in society - after all, wasn't scripture used to support the disenfranchisement of women for hundreds of years?

The point is that Kern contends that gay Americans are supposed to be dependent upon her "religious" beliefs and interpretations to secure our own constitutional rights, and that those rights cannot be guaranteed us until her "church" decides to "reinterpret" the Bible. That's right, Sally - theocratic rule by a cabal of American Taliban ayatolluhs.

Her ass should be tossed out of public office because she does not represent the residents of Oklahoma or the citizens of the United States - she represents only the interests of her "church."  

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by: kevinbgoode @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 11:25:44 AM CDT

Stupid is as stupid does

OH, Sally comes off as really STUPID.  I feel bad for her students and to think that she was a History teacher. No wonder people are home schooling nowadays if every teacher is like her.

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by: BB @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 11:59:52 AM CDT

Disappointment in the show

Overall I was disappointed in the outcome of that show.  Sally Kern revealed herself publicly yet again as the ignorant bigot she is.  However, as several of the posters above have pointed out, she was not confronted well at all.  No one took her to task for ignoring the constitutional mandate of separation of church and state when she is blatantly using her public office to push her own private religious agenda.  No one took her to task for mentioning "the homosexual agenda" about a zillion times when it patently does not exist (at least, I received no agenda papers when I got my gay membership card, heh).  No one mentioned the factual discrepancies in her various speeches (for example, that Benjamin Franklin was a lesser known religious leader when he wasn't even of her religion and was promiscuous to a fault).  No one questioned her about the so-called legal representation that her office press release said she retained, i.e, why does she have it when the Oklahoma  Bureau of Investigation debunked her so-called death threats, and how is she paying for it? Is she using public funds to pay for her private legal representation, and if so, is she doing so illegally?  Perhaps there were time constraints on the show and all of the above could not be discussed.  Seems like a real shame that the news media cannot be trusted to ask even minor politicians the hard questions.  

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by: bookwrm1 @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 16:23:26 PM CDT

Also

No one asked her about Tucker's letter, the OKC bombing and terrorism.  I sure would have liked to see her stumbling around that letter while trying to deny her own comments and then justifying what she had just denied.  

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by: bookwrm1 @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 16:33:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Host is biased, is helping Sally all he can...

Host says Sally said "Radical Islam", Sally agrees.  But, Sally never said "radical", she only said that Islam was a threat.

The Christianists always work together to make themselves LOOK reasonable.

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by: Storm @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 16:48:29 PM CDT

All the Ogles are biased

All three brothers are anchors, all three are biased. This is especially evident during Kevin Ogles "The Rant". KFOR is one of the better stations, but like all the stations here in OK, there is a distinct Right slant to their coverage.

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by: AggieCowboy @ Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:59:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

She needs to be challenged on her sources

I just want to see someone challenge her on her claims about the supposed gay life span. I want someone to tell her about the discredited sources she is using.

And I want someone to challenge her on her claim about Eureka Springs. The mayor of the town said her claims about Eureka Springs being taken over gays is a lie. Why doesn't someone ask her about that.

I don't care whether or not her son is gay. And I don't care how many times Ellen DeGeneres calls her.

The point here is that Kern is symptomatic of how the anti-gay industry has created a plethora of bad science to enhance their lies about homosexuality being a "dangerous lifestyle." And also how they cater to the egos of Christians for them to pass along these lies.

People get so angry at what they are saying, they hardly ever challenge the validity of their claims.

There are a BUNCH of researchers out there who have had their work distorted by the anti-gay industry. And there is proof that these groups are intentionally distorting science and relying on bad data. I would just like to see someone challenge them on it. I want to see them put on the defensive for a change.

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 16:56:12 PM CDT

Didn't mean to put that out there twice

That was accidental of me to put that comment out there twice. It wasn't my intention.

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by: Alvin McEwen @ Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 16:58:51 PM CDT

What the gay Pastor ought to have said to Sally Kern

Though the gay Pastor made some nice points, he mostly wasted the opportunity. Would that he were better versed in how to respond to such silly though powerful people like Kern. I'm disappointed that he somehow believes that using alternative biblical interpretations is a winning approach when challenging bigots. He was given a public platform to spread the message that gay people are in fact fully human and to refute the weak arguments used against us; he failed miserably.

Here's what the Pastor ought to have said and what you ought to say when confronting one of the advocates of the anti-gay fundamentalist religious industry:

(looking at Kerns)

Let me make this very clear: homosexuals are natural normal whole beautiful positive contributing law-abiding citizens. We love fully and our families are fully loved. That's the truth. Period. End of subject.

But for your sake, just this once, I'll go on:

Some texts in the Bible are ignorant and barbaric, surely reflecting the ancient times in which they were written. Think stoning, slavery, divorce, and yes homosexuality. No fair minded intelligent person would disagree with me on that. If you disagree Ms. Kern, as I'm sure you do, you are simply a hypocrite.

Furthermore, by promoting the idea that gay people are inherently inferior Ms. Kern, you madam are a supremacist. And like many supremacists, you wish to segregate, dehumanize, vilify and scapegoat those you deem of lesser status. Your descendants will assuredly be ashamed of you.

Ms. Kern, how can I say this more plainly: your hateful words have encouraged the gay bashers out there; your hateful words have given them more power. I hope that one day you will understand the great injustice and the great slander you've perpetrated against millions upon millions of fellow citizens and that you will sincerely repent. I wish that for you personally with all of my heart.

(looks into the camera)

I ask all fair minded compassionate Oklahomans to reject the bigoted irrational supremacist views of Ms. Kern and people like her, not for my sake but for the sake of your gay family members, friends, coworkers, fellow parishioners and neighbors. Isn't it time we say no, once and for all, to those who ask you to believe that anti-gay bigotry is OK if it's sourced in the Bible? Isn't it time we all stood together against all forms of religiously inspired hate?

I ask all fair minded compassionate Oklahomans to accept what is obvious, that gay people are whole beautiful positive variations of life and that equality is our birthright from time immemorial just as it is yours. Won't you help us in our efforts to correct the exclusionary practices of the past?

We truly need your help, especially when up against the misguided views of people like Sally Kerns and the religious fundamentalist anti-gay industries which support them.

I, for one, will no longer participate in any debate which focuses on my worth as a gay human being.

(turns to Kern)

Ms. Kern, homosexuality is not a sin nor a sickness. That's the truth. And you can change your bigoted supremacist views. That's also the truth. Good luck, think about all that I've said, and be well.

(turns to the moderator)

The debate is over.

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by: seamus7 @ Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 01:24:05 AM CDT