Hitchens apparently knows more about lesbians than the rest of us

Sully

Sullivan and Hitchens have long been close allies in demonizing the Clintons. Both were also big time supporters of the War in Iraq and called those who opposed it "traitors". I wouldn't look for Sullivan to correct stuff like this since he was the one who called gays in San Francisco degenerate leftists and hairy-backed homos.

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by: Ralph4159 @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 16:04:17 PM CDT

I don't suppose

You have links for any of that stuff?

Sully supported the war, yes (just like Hillary), but I'd love to see some links to those other charges.

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by: torrentprime @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 17:00:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't suppose you've heard of Google

http://www.villagevoice.com/ne...

http://www.signorile.com/artic...

http://web.archive.org/web/200...

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by: Ralph4159 @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 18:09:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Im not the one making the charges; I don't need to prove it for you.

But I appreciate your willingness to provide backup for your claims. Thank you.

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by: torrentprime @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 20:07:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hichens is a drunk

I've seen him on Bill Maher's show and he looks and sounds like a belligerent drunk.  Completely different from the Hichens who writes really well.  The lesbian remark doesn't make sense unless he was trying to make a joke and say, "Don't be so old-maidish" and give it a gay twist.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

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by: Lev Raphael @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 16:06:03 PM CDT

Hitchens is a hateful old drunk

And he can't write either.

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by: Cheryl @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 16:07:23 PM CDT

Maybe lesbians can't get to the point or remember anything.

They're both a couple of teabags...oh did I just say that? My bad.

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by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 16:14:06 PM CDT

Hitchens is a Drink-Soaked Trotskyite Popinjay... (Really!)

The man is a serious alcoholic.  I learned years ago to just let anything an alcoholic says go in one ear and out the other.

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by: Storm @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 16:21:17 PM CDT

certainly he was praising sullivan, was he not?

after all, sullivan was being feisty and not letting hitchens off the hook.  so hitchens rightly recognized productive tenacity in the most concise way possible: called sullivan a lesbian.  this would explain why sullivan did not respond, since it just doesn't do to make too much of a high complement.  self-effacing low-key brits, and all.

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by: Lurleen @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 16:25:09 PM CDT

Couldn't tell the difference between bulls and bears.

What is Christopher Hitchens' definition of "lesbian"?  He used it in a crappy ironic way when he said it to Andrew Sullivan.  

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by: Blood From Machines @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 16:41:48 PM CDT

Just a thought

If Hitchens had said "don't be such a gay" there would have been reprecussions if Sullivan had remained silent.

If Christopher Hitchens had made the "Lesbian" remark to John McCain or to Pat Robertson and they did not counter the statement we would all be screaming about it.
.

We would demand public, printed and broadcast retractions and if they did not comply we would write vehemently about the misogyny and Lesbiaphobic nature of the comment and their refusal to distance themselves from it.

Andrew Sullivan, conservative gay male does it and he gets a pass from the community.

Sorry Andrew, not from me you don't.
By letting Hitchens go on like that, by not upbraiding him on his statement, you endorse it. At least that is what we would be saying to McCain.

And I am saying it to you.
Lesbians are tired of being the window dressing in the LGBT community, the after thought when political and social objectives are discussed. We are tired of the misogyny that we experience WITHIN THE LGBT COMMUNITY.

And we will give back as good as we get, Andrew.

Women are tired of being reduced to third class citizens by gay men such as you. You stand up for the whole community or we stop standing up for the ridiculous indulgent behaviours of priviledged gay men  that we are so often asked to defend.

So, if you want to keep company with Hitchens sorts of people, fine. If you find Lesbian-bashing unremarkable, fine. Go hang out with people who feel as you do....Sally Kern, for instance. Though you might find that they don't approve of you either.


I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 17:45:36 PM CDT

huh?

are you just angry at Sullivan or do you have issues with all gay men?

"You stand up for the whole community or we stop standing up for the ridiculous indulgent behaviours of priviledged gay men  that we are so often asked to defend."

Once again huh?, plus a wtf added to that. Let me just say that my husband (of five years) and I thank you for such a fine generalization of the gay community.

BTW what I'm really trying to say is that if you get over the anger and think for a second, there a 101 other things to attack Sullivan about without resorting to attacking the gay community.  

nothing new at this time.....

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by: Mattkazoo @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 20:53:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

well,

there is a lot of misogyny in this country, and in my experience gay men are a bit more but not substantially more enlightened than straight men.  it would be incorrect to say that "gay men are misogynists", just as it is incorrect to state that "hetero men are misogynists".  but it is completely correct to say that many gay men are the equals to their hetero counterparts in mysogeny and enjoying male privilege.  

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by: Lurleen @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 21:43:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

It was NOT directed at all gay men

But the priviledged few, the crowd whose hypocrisy is rank, the fine men who voted Bush, who are fine as long as they have their own rights and to hell with the rest of the community.


I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 05:59:13 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Then perhaps

just say, those gay men who are misogynists and support conservatives, to their detriment.

Remember that there are a lot of gay men slogging in the trenches, who support women, lesbians and the issues that are important to both of those groups. Your original post just made it seem like gay men are the enemy of women and that we all (gay men) engage in "ridiculous indulgent behaviours", that lesbians will stop supporting if we (gay men) don't change.

I guess I was just asking for clarification

nothing new at this time.....

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by: Mattkazoo @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 12:29:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And the last

"ridiculous indulgent behaviours" I engaged in was buying a $200.00 dinner for my husband and a friend. If any of my lesbian friends had been there I would have bought their dinners as well. But it was a boys only weekend, for some reason...so I guess I am also a misogynist (unless you take into account that none of the lesbians I know could make it that weekend).

nothing new at this time.....

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by: Mattkazoo @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 12:39:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ridiculous indulgent behaviours

was a reference to barebacking and meth.

In another post Ben wrote that "lesbians were well known for having to "process" EVERYTHING and make sure it was all spelled out in excruciating detail"

Apparently you are a Lesbian, Matt.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 12:42:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

my age is showing

Back in the day (the '70's) when I was a young man, lesbians were well known for having to "process" EVERYTHING and make sure it was all spelled out in excruciating detail. It was frequently all too clear, but  boring.

Stereotype? Yes, of course, but one of those stereotypes that would slap you upside the head frequently.

This was also the first time i heard the expression lesbian separatist feminist and politically incorrect. It never occurred to me that something could be.

And that's NOT funny.

:)

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by: Ben in Oakland @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 17:47:43 PM CDT

you apparently did not know

very many Lesbians, Ben.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 17:56:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you're right...

It just seemed that the majority of the womnen I knew back then in the political campagins I was involved iwth just seemed to be overwhelmingly that way

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by: Ben in Oakland @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 18:09:34 PM CDT

Damned if I can figure it out

The last lesbian I had a long conversation with (actually many, as she was my grief counselor after the death of my sister) had a 4.0 in college (MBA)- smart, funny, quick-witted and sarcastic, while empathic and extremely good at her job. Never lost track, no matter how much I blathered or tried to avoid a question; helped me TREMENDOUSLY to accept and understand some very bizarre family dynamics as well as my grief.

Whatever the fuck is being implied here is flying right over me noggin.

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by: Louise @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 18:39:04 PM CDT

What is implied

is by and large gay male misogyny

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 19:12:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Neither Hitch nor Sully have credibility

Hitch the sot, Sully the hypocritical barebacker. Both yellow elephants, members of the 101st Keyboard Brigade of aging warseekers.

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by: NancyP @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 19:48:41 PM CDT

and Sullivan is getting a pass

on letting the remark slide.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 20:39:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

They sound like a couple of old roosters -

Seriously, how stale is this issue? How can anyone who would consider themselves any kind of intellect still be hashing this out? Just more lame yammering to justify their careers. I think the lesbian comment was the drunk Hitchens making an insiders "that's so gay" joke as a parry to Sullivan. It's all just a game of wits to these stallions of the pen. But then that is typical of the dorks who really have no skin in the game.  

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by: kelven @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 20:33:24 PM CDT

and the entire LGBT community

would be expected to support a protest if Hitchesn HAD said "Don't be so gay."
But since the cheap shot is at Lesbian...even Sullivan can ignore it.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 20:41:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

This gay man shares your frustration...

Sullivan certainly should not have let the comment slide as he did.  Now, it is impossible to address in situ and pretty much impossible for him to address it credibly at all.  Anyone can address anything after the fact but the real test is having the backbone and the sensitivity to address things in real time.

My opinion of Hitchens is well known, I think he's a lush and a very tedious bore.  Unfortunately, my opinion of Sullivan isn't much higher, and may actually be lower --  after all the man spent the last 6 or 7 years kissing Bush's tush so to speak.  He's generally a discredit in more ways than I can list.

This is why I almost never watch TV, all the people on it suck.

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by: Storm @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 00:09:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Men like Hitch

are why Ireland won independence..

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:01:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

and when I say "priviledged gay men"

I mean Sullivan and his crowd...what one authro irreverently termed the "conserva-queers"

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 06:02:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Balkinization of the lgbt community by Lesbian Separatists

This is the beginning of our community's, if there ever was a lgbt community, balkinization!  Stand on your box if you will but you will be hanging alone if we're not hanging together.

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by: Mattaz @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 09:22:39 AM CDT

Who just now started the name calling.

So you don't think that if Hitch said, "don't be such a gay" vs the "don't be such a lesbian" put down (my editorial I admit) that both the response of Sullivan and the fact this incident was posted at least here, would be different?

Some here named "male priviledge". You brought up your own hangup/concern.  I think the reaction would have been different and it appear that others here think so too.  

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by: Karen in Kalifornia @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:21:31 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

OK Matt

So we will just deal with whatever kinds off misogynistic nonsense gets thrown at the Lesbians, along with the fact that we make no headway with the LGBT leadership for healthcare initiatives for Lesbians.

But we will remain cohesive because the men know what is best for us. We will be just like good Baptist wives.

I am not a separatist. I am a feminist. I have simply had it with the kind of third class treatment that we are subjected to by elitits from amongst the gay male community.  

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 12:48:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hmmmmmmmmm

I think Hitch was just three sheets to the wind and was trying to make a joke about Sully's forgetfulness.

However, since Hitchens was impaired, he thought Sullivan was not being forgetful but was instead, dare I say it: "processing." Please follow that link for a more detailed explanation of the term "processing."

--------------------------------


http://www.gracethespot.com

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by: Grace @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 11:27:15 AM CDT

Why does anyone listen to Christopher Hitchens anyway?

OK... the rest of you beat me to the "he's a drunk" comment.  But, he is and it shows.

Why does anyone listen to him anyway?  Has he ever said anything original?  Does he have any unique talent or insight?  Who the hell cares what Hitchens thinks?

I am always surprised that people like Hitchens are repeatedly asked to appear on TV.  

He just needs to go.  Now.  Far, far away.

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by: jpopphan @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 14:02:18 PM CDT

beacuse he has a british accent.

and, because he is obnoxious, and this give some religionists yet another opportunity to accuse all atheists of being obnoxious haters of religionists.  he's their favorite foil.

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by: Lurleen @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 15:44:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hic

Hitchens is an alcoholic, or so says his wife.  I caught a long interview with him on C-SPAN in which the booze thing was discussed.  I know a bit about that, having been through it all myself.  My feeling is that the man was "in his cups" and not entirely responsible for what he was saying.  

No, no, I am not saying his comment was excused by his having been loaded or hungover (there's not much difference to an alcoholic; you're really just as drunk the day after as the night before insofar as your obnoxious behavior is concerned).  I am only saying that we might have just a wee bit of compassion for the guy.

If you look at the YouTube of the exchange, it is clear that he realizes he has wet his pants almost immediately after he says it.  (No, not literally; I meant, he is embarrassed at the realization of what he's just said.)  He looks contrite and has a small-boy-who's-misbehaved look.  Besides, I gotta give Hitch the benefit of the doubt. He is an atheist, after all.

Against stupidity, even the angels fight in vain. --Schiller

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by: jmmartin @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 23:29:10 PM CDT