Smith College students give 'Born Gay Hoax' author a piece of their minds

Obnoxious Protest

This kind of protest is obnoxious, ridiculous and unfair - not to mention disrespectful of free speech. If I were a Smithie, I'd be crawling in shame.

---

by: Holly in Cincinnati @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:08:26 AM CDT

Shame at Smith

It's disgraceful at a college or university when speech is silenced or interrupted.  I am not even a fan of heckling.  You disagree with a speaker?  Then picket the speech, or hold a protest rally, or invite someone to campus to offer a counter-view, or ask probing questions afterwards and try to expose the person's falsehoods. There are many things to do that are respectful of a school's tradition of open debate. I'm ashamed that people could think this is legitimate protest. It's bullying, plain and simple.  "Proud to be a Smithie"?  What are they teaching you there?  That right makes might?  Wonderful.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:28:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can understand

sitting and listening, for the sake of finding out what the person has to say. But I can also see standing up and leaving- removing myself as an audience or participant.

Quietly and without a single word. Just WALK.


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:39:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Free speech or hate speech?

Personally I don't see a problem with the protest.  In fact, I think we need more of such actions these days, as long as they are not physically violent.  I'm as big a fan of free speech protection as the next person.  But what would the rightful reaction on campus have been if the speaker were someone plugging a book saying the Holocaust never really happened?  Or one promoting the KKK?  I don't see a problem disrupting hate speech which is ultimately responsible for horrific events like the murder of Lawrence King.  

Over the past 20 years, our communtiy has become the "gentle, angry people".  Where would we be now if it weren't for the ACT-UP-style protests of years gone by?  If we want to be more effective, perhaps we need to be a little more ACT-UP and a little less Mr. Rogers.

---

by: Naperville Mom @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:20:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have to agree here...

From what I read of his draft, it's propoganda not scholarly debate.

When I was an undergrad at New Mexico Tech in the late 80's we had a 'Faith Healer' (forget who, but Benny Hinn comes to mind) who wanted to hold his revival on campus in our auditorium. NMT is strictly science oriented and the vast majority of students and professors joined together to protest the upcoming event as being contrary to our educational agenda of fact-based instruction.

As a result, the on-campus event was cancelled and moved to an off-campus location. HOWEVER, we continued the protest and got the Townies involved as well. Socorro has two primary populations: 1) The College, students & professors, fairly liberal; and 2) The Townies, Hispanic, very Catholic, conservative. Needless to say, it wasn't hard to get the everyone worked up against a non-Catholic and he ended up just cancelling his appearance in town all together.

It was totally peaceful, we did not silence him or prevent him from coming to town, but we did drown him out and let him know that we were not going to stand by quietly to let him spread his fraudulent propoganda on our campus or in our town.

---

by: AggieCowboy @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:01:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I would respond exactly the same way

As the son of Holocaust survivors, if I heard a local speaker would be denying the Holocaust, I would get involved beforehand to pull together a coalition that would 1) protest, 2) get local publicity for the protest and 3) counter-program and 4) have people there to challenge the bilge.  

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:20:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hear Hear!

I do not like being measured as wanting by a conservative republcan college student who gets to preach bad science, a single biblical interprative viewpoint and who arrogantly expects nt to be challenged on trying to cut the basis of our citizenship out from under us.

Yes, we need the spirit of ACT_UP back in our community. I am tired of us bargaining politely and getting nothing(anyone see ENDA or the Hate Crimes Act, so loudly touted in the fall, pass yet? No!)

We need spontaneous outpourings of protest again.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 19:58:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

While we do need

spontaneous outpourings of protest again.

The real question is, what is a reasonable response? This was not, especially since the college's president issued a letter condemning the action. It could have been done better, instead we have right wing groups using this to promote their agenda.


Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:16:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Amen

Glad to see other people here agree that mobbing and shouting down of free speech is not the moral OR political way to advance our interests.

BB called it too (down below): the right will trumpet this as the left's fear of speech, reasonable exchange of ideas, etc.  This is no victory for our side: this is intimidation.

---

by: torrentprime @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:03:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you were a Smithie...

You would understand why this kind of protest was necessary on our campus.  If everyone who disagreed with what he had to say had just decided not to go, he still would have had an audience.  He would have had a respectful audience that listened to him and validated his crackpot views.  There is nothing validating about telling Ryan Sorba that he is not welcome in our space. Smith is one of the few safe spaces for queer  students that is accepting and affirming of our community and allows students to express their sexuality however they wish.  Smith is our space, where we don't have to be silenced by the dominant discourse that tells us that we are no better than animals for what we do in our own bedrooms.

To address the free speech issue--he had his speech, and we had ours.  The administration allowed him to come and spew hate (can you imagine if someone tried to give a racist or anti-semitic speech?) and we voiced our opposition.  We are under no obligation to listen quietly and respectfully to hate speech.

And no, as a Smithie I'm not ashamed about what happened.  I couldn't be more proud.  

---

by: araife @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:51:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not to mention that the Religious Right uses the same tactic

They talk over their opponent and try to dominate the discussion by not allowing the opposition common courtesies. In essence, they are trying to silence the opposing viewpoint, but cry foul when others do the same to them.

---

by: AggieCowboy @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:17:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So we're taking our cues from them?

It's wrong when they do it, but right when we do it?

And you're completely obscuring what we're talking about here.  "Talking over their opponent" and "dominating the discussion" is not the same as "invading a speech in a large crowd and screaming until the speaker is forced to leave the stage." That's comparing Crossfire and talk-show host games with an angry mob.

---

by: torrentprime @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:24:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I apologize that my comment didn't come across correctly

My comment was about talk shows and the like (I wasn't trying to obscure...I kept getting interrupted and lost my train of thought). What I intended was that we need to be more forceful in debates to have our voices heard (or have a decent moderator who allows equal time) instead of quietly allowing others to talk over us.

I agree that the tactics at Smith were probably wrong and most definitely will be used against them. They would have been better off inviting a speaker with a countering viewpoint.

And, yes, we should be using their tactics. Let's face it, we're new to the game. The Religious Right has had literally centuries to perfect their skills. But we have an advantage that they don't...in the virtual world, Progressives dominate and the Right is having to playing catch up. Of course, historically speaking, Progressives win in the long run because we are able to (innately) adapt more readily and appeal to individualism while the Right tends to remain stagnant by trying to force group conformity on everyone (they are, literally, unable to adapt to new situations).  

---

by: AggieCowboy @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:04:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You did not "voice your opposition" You shouted him down.

And he did not "[have] his speech..." You forcibly cancelled it, remember? And a protest is not the same as a suppression.

"We are under no obligation to listen quietly and respectfully to hate speech." (Gosh, I love strawmen.)  No one said you were. But you didn't even have to go, much less scream and shout until he was silenced.

---

by: torrentprime @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:19:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why not ask your parents to withhold next years tuition?

You say "the administration allowed him to come..."  Are you taking any steps to show the schools leadership that you don't want to have any views expressed on your campus with which you disagree?

I'm certain that if you all stopped paying tuition they would never again invite any speaker who held any views you found even slightly disagreeable.

Limiting the scope of information and ideas available on your campus will certainly improve your educational experience, won't it?

(sarcasm intended)

Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:10:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Strategy, Smithie araife, strategy......

Informational picket with a few people handing out fliers to everyone entering.

Someone in the room recording the batshittery, surreptitiously if needed.

Someone outside recording the peaceful protests.

Someone levelheaded contacts local news (if it seems necessary to destroy this guy's reputation, ie, if more than 6 people show up) or is designated as media spokesperson. If local news reports on this, the protesters come off looking good, and the speaker looks crazy.

You also deny the right-wingers footage of screaming protesters that they can use to whip up the Waaah-we-are-being-silenced-by-Libruls martyrdome brigade. The speaker is an agent provacateur.

You probably don't have that much experience with protests and dealing with media.

---

by: NancyP @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:16:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

provocateur, d'oh!

---

by: NancyP @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:17:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I just have to re-use this post...

I said this about the group that is doing the robo calls in NC (including Barbra Streisand and Julia L Dryfuss) and can't help but think that it applies to the shouters at Smith just as well...

"Just another bunch of bored millionaire's trying to be relevant between spa treatments, lattes and trips to their beach house in Maui... "

(I spent 5 years living in Amherst and Northampton, and was just there last year...not much has changed except the increased number of insanely high priced designer clothing stores, latte shops and sushi bars in Northampton and many many more Mercedes and Jaguars on the streets...)


Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:18:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Smith is a safe space?

Then you don't have to silence others.  You were among friends in one of the country's gayest college towns (I know Northampton). If it's your space, there are plenty of ways to deal with hate-mongers, many of them listed above and below by Blenders who suggested other tactics. Attacking fund-raising is particularly smart in the long term, but in the short term, all the ways listed, especially involving media, would have been much more adult. He had his speech/you had yours?  Yours wasn't speech, it was silencing.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:38:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you were a Smithie...

You would know that the Smith Republicans feel very much marginalized on our campus.  I do believe that the campus is a safe space for most queer students.  As you said yourself,

Smith is one of the few safe spaces for queer  students that is accepting and affirming of our community and allows students to express their sexuality however they wish.  Smith is our space, where we don't have to be silenced by the dominant discourse that tells us that we are no better than animals for what we do in our own bedrooms.

To say that one lone man, who no one had heard of before the event blew up, disrupts that safe space is giving him too much credit.  The protest gave him too much credit.

His entire lecture was posted online prior to his coming to campus; those who disagreed with him but were interested in hearing what he had to say could have watched his speech online and protested by not going.  I just don't think the aggressive protest was the way to go.  As some said after the fact, "It wasn't about him, it was about our solidarity."  But as someone feeling like the one lone queer Smithie who actively, consciously did not attend the lecture for reasons no one paid any attention to, I don't see how "queer/Smith solidarity" included me.

---

by: gimmefiction @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 16:21:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Angry, not ashamed

As a Smithie who didn't attend Sorba's speech and didn't otherwise loudly protest, I'm extremely frustrated with the people who did. Many of them came back with stories of how fun it was, how great it felt to be so loud and obnoxious that Sorba had to sit down.

That kind of behavior makes coming to Smith worthwhile for Sorba. He must know that most of Smith disagrees with him, so he can't have come here looking to gather support. He clearly doesn't care much for logical argument, so he can't have come here looking to educate us or to start an intelligent debate.

The best thing Sorba could possibly have hoped for in coming to Smith was to raise a ruckus that would bring him publicity for his book. And what did my supposedly intelligent, politically aware, queer-friendly peers do? They gave him exactly what he wanted.

I'm a queer Smithie. I felt attacked by Sorba's presence on my campus. But the behavior of other Smithies and community members who went to the talk? That makes me feel betrayed.  

Living deliberately with passion and sense: Truth & Beauty Bombs

---

by: peregrine @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:55:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Agreed Holly

The man's deluded and his knowledge of history and other cultures, like the rest of his message, is deeply flawed, but that doesn't mitigate being bullied off the podium by a braying mob.  Was it a source of pride when Aquinas pulled the plug on Corvino?  If Wayne Besen had been speaking and Sally Kerns had sent a mob to shout him down, where would the Smith pride be then?  I'm with Lev: engage the debator, expose his flaws, mount a rebuttal.  Tactics like what happened at Smith are reminiscent of Mugabe's thuggery and are not helpful:  all they promote is noise.

---

by: Brian @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 01:57:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

nope

No, people like that do not deserve to spread their hate on college campuses. If a majority of the campus is opposed to garbage being spit out, then they can show it. As a fellow college student, i have no problem with this. Go girls!

---

by: kcflood @ Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:32:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nope?

Then the same would hold true on a Christian campus where an invited queer speaker was not allowed to finish her talk and was shouted down and drowned out by protesters not wanting "perversion" on their campus.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Sun May 04, 2008 at 21:06:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just in case you didn't know

Kyle Bristow, the chairman of the MSU chapter of the Young Americans for Freedom is listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Center.

Bristow is a real piece of sh1&!. If this is the same group, they are known for their "catch an illegal immigrant day." They basically went around Lansing forcibly holding anyone who looked Hispanic against their will unless they could provide documentation that proved their citizenship.    

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:20:54 AM CDT

Fact or Fiction?

They basically went around Lansing forcibly holding anyone who looked Hispanic against their will unless they could provide documentation that proved their citizenship.    

Matt, do you have citations for that happening? I don't find it in the Lansing State Journal or the Detroit Free Press archives.  If you know it happened or know someone who does know, then it should be reported to the police because it sounds like kidnapping.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:00:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

oh sure no problem

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/...

http://www.splcenter.org/intel...

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/...

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITI...

Party of an exchange from MSU Alum Sean Campbell

Mr. Bristow:

Recently I had the "pleasure" of seeing your videotape re: the protest that took place on the Michigan State University campus Wells Hall bridge. As an MSU alumnus, I am disgraced by your actions as well as the statements that have been attributed to you in various online forums. In particular, your comments about the indigenous peoples of the Americas; which I found utterly disgusting.

My response to Sean:

Dear Sean,

I read your email about how you are disappointed with my alleged hatred and racism. My response to you is short and sweet: Next time you are in a backwards, Third World, hellhole in Africa, try your best to get Ebola. The fewer leftists there are in the world, the better.

Cordially,
Kyle Bristow

http://www.spartanspectator.com/

This is such nice guy..........if you want to know more, just ask.  

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 14:57:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You haven't offered proof

Matt, with all due respect, the citations show how loathsome and disgusting the YAF is, and likewise a similar group at UofM, but there is nothing in any of the web sites that says that the YAF at MSU

went around Lansing forcibly holding anyone who looked Hispanic against their will unless they could provide documentation that proved their citizenship.

As despicable as the group is, you should not be spreading stories about something they haven't done.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 21:06:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

read below,

I'm still looking for the article. But I may have been wrong, I will admit that...but no matter what, that was their plan.

Like other people here, some times I get annoyed and angry and post quickly. And not being an expert on YAF (i.e. I don't spend 24/7 reading and thinking about the group.), there may be the chance that I read the original article regarding the event and didn't see what happened next.

But like I said, I am still searching, because I do believe I saw an article that said they did hold an event and held some one against their will. The event in 2006 was altered after a great deal of protest, but that still leaves 2007 (and thats were I am searching).

If I'm wrong, than I'm sorry. But no matter what the links I provided show how disgusting YAF is, and that was the point of my original post.  

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 10:15:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I read everything

And I also searched the Lansing State Journal and detroit Free Press web sites and there have been no reports verifying this story.

It's always possible that they bragged about doing this and didn't do it.

Yes, you're right, they are totally despicable, but we still have to be careful about making unsubstantiated charges.  They undermine the loathsome enough truth, and the veracity of the accuser.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 10:28:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually

as reported in the New York Times.

I was incorrect, while the original idea was to catch Hispanic individuals. This was done in 2007...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02...

so I was wrong about MSU YAF, it was only some one dressed up as an immigrant, which is still loathsome.

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 10:57:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You should also know

that a couple of students tried to start a YAF chapter at WMU. I am happy to say that they have canceled plans for now, since no one wanted to join them and public outrage was so intense, they were unable to form.

But that fact that MSU has one of the most aggressive of these groups saddens me a great deal.    

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 15:04:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Okay

the full catch an illegal immigrant day was canceled in its original form, see below

http://www.statenews.com/index...

But maybe they did it another year, because I am sure I read they had held someone....I'll keep looking for that link. It maybe have been around the protests when YAF hosted Rep. Tom Tancredo

I will look in to it

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 15:46:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I answered this question...

In a comment elsewhere. I'm still getting the hang of the comment formats here :)

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/...

Hopefully that works.
Anyway, aside from some shouting, no one was actually detained. Or at least, it wasn't reported in a substantiated way.

Maybe you are thinking of the YAF guy who got beat up in Ann Arbor, claimed it was in retaliation for the CAII day, and then it turned out to be his republican buddies that did it because he was a drunken jerk?

---

by: bug_girl @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 18:33:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe that was it

oh and by the way, are you a MSU student?

that would be funny.....Lev Raphael used to teach there and I was almost born there (added that I'm considering finishing my degree there, plus everyone in my family has a degree from MSU)

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 19:49:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Best form of protest...

I agree with Holly...

Wouldn't it be wonderful if whenever one of these nutcases showed up to spew their idiocy, the entire auditorium was simply empty?

As hard as it might be, this would send a real message...

Attending such speeches in the audience can be misinterpreted as "And the speech attracted a very large crowd..." Implying that there is widespread support for the ideas...

Lets see if we can simply arrange for thousands of empty seats...


Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:22:35 AM CDT

Some distinctions

I'd like to point out a few things about this ongoing culture war.

Firstly, most of what passes for 'free speech' among right-wingers such as Mike Savage and is called 'hate-speech' or 'incitement to assault/ murder' is unthinkable in most European countries NOT because of a politically correct super-state or UN surveillance but because it is the absolute rock bottom of incivility; the worst, most antisocial behavior imaginable. Only cretinous clowns like Silvio Berlusconi or the Kazinskys in Poland say such things and they are immediately ridiculed and isolated in much the same way as the child at school who wets his pants or smells his own farts. It's shaming to be seen close to such behavior.

Obnoxiousness in US public life is closely connected to several great American traits; lack of respect for class or authority is a good thing. Confidence and outspokenness are great. But then you guys never know when to stop; the sky's always the limit; Americans never 'knew their station' or 'watched their Ps and Qs' like class-dominated places like Britain. So outspokenness become evangelism becomes a competition to say the most extreme, unpleasant things possible and before you know it, people are talking like Hitler (this is not a gratuitous Hitler stab: I mean that their comments are word-for-word lifted from the table talk of der Fuhrer.

The only people in Western Europe who brazenly spout racist, sexist, homophobic, religious vituperation like this are the Italians, who not coincidentally, have a religious dictatorship fundamentally opposed to democracy planted right in the centre of their country.

---

by: steerpike66 @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:45:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

PS:

This obnoxiousness has infected the liberal left too; which is why you have supposedly liberal students screeching like harpies at the imagined target of their righteous indignation. You want to know how to take down the right? Watch Tony Benn lay the smack down on John Bolton and learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

---

by: steerpike66 @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:50:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hmmm

The UK's recent forays into speech control are no illusion. They almost passed a law banning criticism of gays which could be perceived as threatening (some gays showed up in the House of Lords to oppose the law; props to them), and now the UK is considering outlawing "violent" pornography. That's kind of a politically correct super-state, my friend.

Also, it may be uncouth for Europeans to speak this way, but there are plenty of extremist Muslim mosques who preach the word of Michael Savage every day: gays are the enemy, etc. France, Britain and even the netherlands are wrestling with this issue now. So while it's easy to pretend that only ugly Americans have this problem, it's certainly world wide.

---

by: torrentprime @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:12:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Christian extremists = Muslim extremists

Same guys, different clothes.

Hate gays, education, science, women's rights and whoever they identify as 'The Enemy' to keep their little gang of idiots together and united.

It IS worth pointing out that the UK blithely apes US behavior in almost everything. In a mere 30 years, they've gone from austere, emotionally retentive, cheerfully ugly and creative people to identi-tanned, bleach-toothed, sniveling chat-show bait with breast implants; covered in fake-tan and Abercrombie and Fitch. Everyone in Britain is either a 'babe' or a hugely obese 'loser' now. Simultaneously sex-crazed and frigid. Obsessed with pornography. Super-materialistic.

I think it's an Anglo-Saxon thing.

---

by: steerpike66 @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:40:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Is this really a speech?

He sounds worse than my poorest freshmen speakers. Looks like just another wingnut moneymaking scheme where the dude sees the potential to squeeze some coins from the purses of the paranoid by rehashing the same old wingnut-created points.

Someone should ask the YAF when they plan to invite someone to speak about the myth of white male heterosexuals being born with the right to obsess about the relationships of everyone else.  

---

by: kevinbgoode @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:41:42 AM CDT

This is just what these bigots want

A protest that shuts down their "speech".  This guy Sorba has been trying to bully people all around the country into being in a debate with him.  It's all smoke and mirrors.  Saddly, Massresistance in Massachusetts will use this as a chance to say that homo activists are against free speech.  this will only embolden them.

---

by: BB @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:50:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

His "air quotes"

Very professional.

NOT!  

Cisgender. Because "Genetic" is so 2006.

---

by: Denabeth @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:27:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Love people who can't say what they mean

Sexual deviancy poses as a dire threat to our civilization

LOL! Kyle Bristow's actually saying that sexual deviancy isn't a threat, it's just pretending to be, which might be true.  I myself think that the Gay Agenda is actually a feint to cover the International Jewish Conspiracy, which I know to exist because I had a summer internship there once in Overthrowing Governments.  I really wanted to do the Poisoning Wells Practicum to get some of that old-time religion, but it was full.  I ascribe that to nostalgia.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:52:40 AM CDT

"...poses as..."

Hahaha, I missed that!

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:57:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Lev! did I meet you

at the crossover International Banking Conspiracy/Martinist Masonic Conspiracy sessions?
You sly devil, you!

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 23:47:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I thought your name was familiar

Wasn't that secret handshake lesson truly amazing?

And then the maps with all those push-pins were we had taken over.  Thrilling stuff.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 10:31:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Found this idiots early draft of his "Book"

Here is a link to what appears to be an early unfinished draft of this "book" listing no publisher and leaving several chapters "TBC" meaning 'to be completed'

Poor excuse for anything 'scholorly'

Read only when keyboard is safely tucked away...

www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08a/born_gay_hoax/TheBornGayHoax.pdf  

Question:  What does an atheist do when they fall to the floor and start "speaking in tongues"?

Answer: Get a CAT scan.

---

by: Snooky Ookums @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:57:30 AM CDT

I certainly hope he has a good editor

or has done some serious rewrites. Definitely a very early draft. I only read a few random selections, but it is more reminiscent of a high school term paper than a well-researched document that proves his hypothesis. Plus most of the references are incomplete, so no real way to verify his sources without some serious digging, however, I get the impression that his "supporting" documentation is biased and unscientific.

I won't buy the book because I refuse to line his pocket with royalties, but I am going to buy The Golden Compass because of the stink the fundies put up (the more they complain about something, the more likely I am to buy it).

---

by: AggieCowboy @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:28:55 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Golden Compass and ff are good stories,

for those who like fantasy. Pullman is imaginative and knows how to keep the story moving. Better than Harry Potter. (OK, that's a lowish bar...)

---

by: NancyP @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:34:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

True, JKR did get long winded at times...

but the HP series did accomplish one great thing...it got a whole generation of kids to start reading books again. That, IMO, is the true magic of her works.

---

by: AggieCowboy @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:27:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not exactly true

I've seen surveys that show kids have read Potter books but haven't necessarily become avid readers of other books.  Sorry I can't point you to specifics, but I have read more than one article pointing out this received wisdom about Rowling's accomplishments is just that.

I think TGC is much better written, more imaginative and startling.  Potter struck me as just another English public school book--with magic added.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:30:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wrong way to handle this

The right WANTS "martyrs". YouTube can disseminate any rude behavior far and wide. Far better to have a few students handing out information packets, a student outside filming, and a student inside filming, than to have a shouting mob.

The guy wanted attention and he got it. Far better that he should talk gibberish to a nearly empty room.

Smithies should know better.(OK, maybe they are a little more rude now than in my (distant) day in the Five College area...)  

---

by: NancyP @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:32:24 AM CDT

NOT all Smithies were in agreement, clearly

As a queer Smithie who made a conscious decision not to go and fuel the fire, I'd just like to point out that the campus was heavily divided on 1) whether there should be a protest or not 2) what method of protest, if any, would have been the best/right way to address the issue 3) what the underlying issue was.  In addition, students from other campuses, who just wanted in on the action, came and joined the fray; I have no idea how they contributed.

So, saying "Smithies should know better" is very much a generalization.

---

by: gimmefiction @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 16:06:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks for letting people know--

--that there was a debate on campus about how to respond.

But I think that when Nancy wrote "Smithies should know better" she wasn't generalizing to all of Smith College; rather, she was referring to those students who fueled the fire.

(BTW, I assume you're a fiction writer, given your sig.  When I did my MFA at UMass when it was 33 in the country. The Five Colleges were a wonderful extended writing workshop/cultural voyage for me and helped launch a long career.  I'm celebrating my 30th anniversary next month as a publisher author, and it started there.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 16:39:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Kyle Bristow, MSU, and hate

Bristow is a turd on the lawn of MSU.
He has, fortunately, stepped down:
http://membracid.wordpress.com...

While they did have a catch an illegal immigrant day, they did NOT actually detain anyone. Oh, and YAF also brought in Jared Taylor to talk about the inherent weakness of some races:
http://membracid.wordpress.com...
(note the comment from Tom Metzger--eek!)

MSU'S LGBT community did an awesome job matching Soba's hate speech with informative, factual programming.
The way it should be done, IMHO.

An example:
http://dwc.wide.msu.edu/piperm...

I hope the multiple links are ok.

---

by: bug_girl @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:38:33 AM CDT

The Born Straight Hoax

1. Here's something a little logical explanation (it may sound like a fallacy): if you weren't born gay, then you weren't born straight either.  Sorba is such a fraud.

2.

Kyle Bristow, the chairman of the MSU chapter of the Young Americans for Freedom, said, "Sexual deviancy poses as a dire threat to our civilization; is an affront to God; corrupts culture with decadence; and is an attack on the institution of the family, which is the crux of our society."

In other words, gay sex is a threat to ignorance.  Let's keep it that way.

---

by: Blood From Machines @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:00:34 PM CDT

correction

"Here's a logical explanation:"

Sorry, I'm not fully awake yet.

---

by: Blood From Machines @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:03:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

wow, lots of great comments.

so I will add my 2 cents.
I get it. Who wants to sink to that level.
However, sometimes fighting is the right thing to do. Hear me out. Would the powers that were have sat down with MLK if there was not Malcom X?
Lots of people respond to reason. Bullies respond to? I didn't really think this way until I saw someone shout down that Folgers woman. At first I was like, yikes, uncool. Then I was like, ya know what? she needs to be shouted down, everywhere she goes and opens her hateful yap.
So, there is my two cents. lol

http://EQFL.org

---

by: banshiii @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:50:28 PM CDT

Likewise with the Patriot Riders

who use their motorcycles to "shout down" and hide the rabid Phelps Clan at funerals.

---

by: AggieCowboy @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:18:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Patriot Riders

are a great example.  I've never heard anyone fault them for quashing Fred Phelp's "free speech".  Why?  Because hate speech and free speech are two different things.

To follow all the dissenting logic I'm reading above:  So if speech in any and all forms is to be allowed without angry protest or uprising, then why do we waste our energy on this blog?  The majority of discussions on this blog deal with the hate speech of others.  And most folks on PHB are constantly calling for these wingnuts to shut the f*ck up so that the resulting anti-gay violence will stop, and rightfully so.  Then why even bother with our daily bashing of (insert the name of your favorite wingnut here)?  Let them go about their days spouting their "free speech".

(Just to clarify my sarcasm since this thread is getting long - I support the idea of the protestors drowning out Sorba's speech - as well as that of Sally Kern, The Peter, The Cryptkeeper, Daddy D, etc. etc. etc.)

---

by: Naperville Mom @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 17:29:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Big Difference

Is Phelps invited to speak a college campuses by legitimate student groups that have faculty and campus support? He and his adherents picket funerals, etc.  Not the same thing at all.

I also don't see how you can compare posting here to criticize someone in politics or our culture with drowning someone out by chanting, etc. at a college where that person--however loathsome--has been invited to speak.

Cyber behavior on a board like this is not the same thing as behavior out in the world.

 

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 17:56:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

MLK--

accomplished a great deal along with other Civil Rights Movement leaders through his nonviolence, through his public activism, through his amazing speeches, and also with the help of media exposing the barbarity of southern law enforcement, beating, clubbing, hosing down nonviolent protesters and siccing dogs on them. I think LBJ was more influenced by all of that than by Malclom X.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:33:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorba's lesbian comment...

From what I remember from some feminist theory courses in college, feminists in the 70s had two uses of "lesbian"-- one with a capitalized L and one with a lower case l. One was meant to refer to women who were romantically and sexually involved with other women. The other had to do with a political position which emphasized women's independence from patriarchy etc but didn't necessarily mean they were homosexual. Yet another example of a hater conveniently misunderstanding reality.  And to all the Smithies who read here-- I must say, well done! Though not a Smith alum, I attended a similarly vocal college and sometimes fools spouting off hate and ignorance simply need to be shouted down.

---

by: cs @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 13:36:41 PM CDT

Prestigious College Allows Charlatan To Speak

I understand that free speech should be upheld in our country and honor that (even though bushwacker and many american people today don't think so).  When someone who has such an outlandish idea with no credibility and no intellectual credentials is allowed to speak to a college with such a longstanding focus on intellectual excellence and achievement is a joke. This guy is a joker and I would have heckled my heart out too. So, is the Holocaust a hoax too - what's next on this guys blank thought process?

Come on people - take a look at what he was talking about - do you really think that being gay is a hoax and that someone talks you into it? Think people - read articles, talk with people who have gone through this - do your own research and I'm quite sure you will find that this guy is a shyster,disreputable, unethical and at the very least unconscious.

I think he should have been laughed out of the auditorium and why not!

---

by: zitimo @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 14:19:04 PM CDT

They knew he was coming

He was sponsored by Smith's Young Republicans, right?  It would have been announced in advance, in the papers, on flyers, posted all over campus.  There would have been plenty of time to alert the media to his fraudulent claims; invite another speaker; arrange for leafleting, pickets, and as much counter-programming as possible.

And also lodge complaints to Smith's President and/or Provost, the Board of Trustees, as well as whatever board handles student organizations, The Faculty Senate (because the group likely has a faculty coordinator), and the student Senate if there is one.  A whole arsenal of tools that need not have included shouting the moron down.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 14:38:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yeah, pretty obnoxious

But what do you expect out of college students? Okay, I don't mean to say that their actions are proper, but I recall while I was at college people used to scream and shout and disrupt speeches all the time. We just didn't have YouTube back then.

With that being said, now that we do have YouTube, college students may want to think twice about engaging in embarrassing behavior like this. Stuff like can be spread around the internet in minutes and can thus easily become fodder for the other side.

--------------------------------


http://www.gracethespot.com

---

by: Grace @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 16:11:54 PM CDT

As a queer Smithie who ended up not attending,

I would like to reiterate that the queer/queer-friendly student body at Smith was extremely disorganized in deciding on a response. I first became aware of the event when I was invited to a naked kiss-in on Facebook. Deciding that we wanted to promote a more constructive reaction, a few friends and I started a more general protest group in which many people debated what to do and we encouraged people to write emails to the administration and the Smith Republicans, and, if we went, to turn our chairs at the first hateful thing he said. Other friends suggested making signs that said things like "I heart heterosexual women," "I'm not here because my homework was more interesting," etc. The Feminists of Smith Unite had a similar protest strategy, and another group decided to have a queer diversity party on another part of campus instead. Some of my friends decided early on that it wasn't worth going. There was never one unified queer group that might have channeled students' outrage; this is because two out of three Smith queer organizations currently do not meet, and the third (queer students of color) is faltering a bit. No one strong leader showed up that might have channeled the students' energy or organized a more strategic protest. There was no leader to organize a counter-event.

I ended up not going because I had better things to do, and I wasn't sure how I would respond if I did go. A friend that did go said, "It wasn't about the Republicans, it was about us and our pride." The thing is, Sorba has said before that he is specifically using the responses of students in liberal colleges to illustrate his point in his book. It will just feed the fire, not to mention stooping to his level. On the one hand, I am sad to have missed an event where I could have expressed my anger and showed my pride. I am still outraged that the Republicans and the Administration tried to pass this off as an intellectually plausible event. It was a jab at gay political strategy (which I would have been interested in hearing), but couched in inarticulateness, derision, and hate. On the other hand, pride is not what the event was about. Our priority should have been thwarting Sorba's strategy as much as possible. Likely he would have twisted non-attendence his own way, too, but if we could have taken a strategic middle ground, we could have come out on top. We played into what Sorba wanted in the end.

---

by: Zanahoria @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 18:36:09 PM CDT

MassResistance

was HOPING for a protest, and Smith didn't disappoint. Hell, thy would have LOVED to have seen some violence. Watch them get some mileage out of this...

From their site:

Ryan Sorba to give "Born Gay Hoax lecture" at Smith College this Tuesday, April 29.

Public is invited! Police protection because of threats of disruption - don't let that stop you from hearing the truth!

Smithies, you got played.  

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 19:04:57 PM CDT

"They" (obviously)

and here's the site I quoted:

http://www.massresistance.org/

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 19:06:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Troll"??

FriendofJonathan, get a life.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 11:38:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

...thanks Louise.

Especially if this was posted way before the event. I just sent info over to G-A-Y discussion too.

It's the Hammer of JUSTICE,
It's the Bell of FREEDOM,
It's the Song about LOVE between,
my Brothers and my Sisters
...All over this Land.

---

by: Orion45 @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 19:28:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Loved it!

As a 63 year old white male I was overjoyed to see a bunch of lively, angry young women give a big razzberry to a right-wing arsehole...I've watched it a couple of times and get tingles every time...YOU GO GIRLS!

---

by: wagonjak @ Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 19:43:42 PM CDT

Free speech?

Just as someone would not tolerate racism, we cannot tolerate hate speech against gay people, although they are very different things, any speech which speaks hatred, or lies, can not be allowed in an intelligent society.

Discussion and education, would be a better expression of free speech, but something tells me getting scientists, gay rights activists and anti-gay activists to do some talking, and some research, would be too much to ask.

---

by: corvidae @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:27:44 AM CDT

Pam--

--I wouldn't call this a steelcage match--people are being respectful in expressing very strong opinions.

The story is still on my mind, heavily.  For lots of reasons.  We've lived through eight years of suppression, starting with a White House that warned us to watch what we say and watch what we do after 9/11, and the first-time ever ludicrously "free speech zones" where protesters against the President were caged off out of sight.  The media have also silenced or stifled divergent voices.  

I find the comparison to Act Up! fallacious because that group was very much David vs. Goliath when it challenged a homophobic, ignorant, cruel government that didn't want to even speak about AIDS.  At Smith, this speaker was in the minority.

As for the Holocaust denial comparisons, I was impressed when I heard scholar and author Deborah Lipstadt speak locally about the whole subject.  As you know, she has challenged denier David Irving and won in court.  Asked what she thought people should do when a denier comes to a college campus, she urged a college-wide effort of protest and education, focused most significantly on the fact that Holocaust denial is anti-intellectual, it is a denial of fact as crazed as saying "There were no slaves in the U.S.--they all worked voluntarily."

I see a golden opportunity missed at Smith.  Queer students could have lobbied other political, social, and ethnic groups and created a campus-wide coalition to shame the group bringing this speaker in, present counter-programming, and much more.  The college could have been activated and engaged at every level: student, faculty, staff, administrators.  It would have been a model for dealing with future speakers of his ilk.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 10:43:36 AM CDT

Actually on this I agree with you

what should have been done, and what would have been far more effective; would have been a education and protest event.

One protest I saw was great and not very self-destructive, which I will adapt to this situation.
When it was announced that this person was coming to campus.
1. Contact every progressive student group you can
2. Like most such events, seating is limited (from the video it looks fairly limited), get everyone you can to go to the event. Take up every seat you can.
3. As he begins to speak have students put on rainbow arm bands (or something similar) and one by one get up and silently leave. Don't make a sound, just get up and leave.
4. Outside have one or two people waiting with materials for those leaving. Signs, brochures, fliers, etc.
5. The students leaving the event can begin their protest outside, and hand out educational materials to those walking by.

6. The day of the event have your best writer create send letters to all local papers, highlighting your disapproval of his coming to the college. And also his poor argument and its flaws.
7. Lastly, after his appearance hold a series of educational lectures of your own. After hearing his speech and reading his material....you could probably train a chimp to effectively argue against what he is saying (so you wouldn't need to pay for any big name speakers to come in).  

I think this would show far more solidarity on campus, unite everyone and also show that his type of hate is not accepted on your campus. It would also give those who hate us less material to work with. As you can see the "former" leader of YAF at MSU has a lot to say about the protest http://www.spartanspectator.com/
 

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 11:43:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Excellent suggestions, all

Only addition I would make would be considering informing the local TV news media. Certainly in the Northamp and Amherst area there is alot of community support... (my personal ties to Amherst go back almost 40 years).


"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:05:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ok

8. contact local media :)

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:08:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why "actually"?

Have we disagreed before, on much of anything?

:-)

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

---

by: Lev Raphael @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:14:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

:)

no. But based on our exchange above, I wanted to make sure I was not disagreeing with you.

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:18:11 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Chamberlain would be proud

In their hunger to placate and kow-tow to oppressors, some people have forgotten that the students have a right to free speech as well, and that the constitutional ammendment exists, in part, to protect such demonstrations.  Additionally, the right to free speech does not guarantee a friendly, polite or quite audience.

Frankly, the whole 'disrespectful of free speech' argument is nonsense.  No one is guaranteed an audience, no one is guaranteed quiet attentiveness, only the right to speak without punitive restraint from the governmnent.  I have to wonder if those who are pushing this 'free speech' crap here are not covert supporters of anti-gay theology and politics.

Worries about the RR using these images to support their premises are pointless - the RR has shown it will use anything, credible or not, to support their premise, going so far as to create and forge 'evidence'.  It is simply impossible to remove anything and everything the RR might use as a weapon for their agenda.

It would be helpful for some people, I think, to read up a bit on the psychology of human social dynamics.

What Ryan Sorba experienced at Smith is a mild form of the very process that homophobes have been using on GLBTQ people for centuries, a mild form of what he was trying to foment against GLBTQ people - societal outrage.

Technically, if he claims to be a Christian, he cannot complain, because by trying to stir up societal outrage against GLBTQ people, whom Christians are required to love as themselves, he must be willing to accept societal outrage in return.  Any word of complaint from him is evidence of a lack of commitment to Christian core beliefs.

Homophobes have worked diligently to create a society that is offended and outraged by the existence of GLBTQ people, this one met a society offended and outraged by homophobia, lies and persecution.

And while it may not impact the core bigots of the right-wing, it will send a meaningful, and for us, helpful message, to the rank-n-file. This demonstration gave some of them a chance to experience the consequences of their own process, to feel a force of human culture they have been wielding against others for centuries.

---

by: FriendOfJonathan @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 12:39:55 PM CDT

thank you

i agree with everything you said!

especially what you pointed out about how the RR will not only use whatever radicals do against them but also that they routinely falsify "evidence" anyway.  this is clearly what sorba is doing with his whole speech anyway.

i hope that this resistance does send a message that people should stand against this hate.  hopefully it will inspire others who see the footage to take action in their own lives as well.

thank you...  

---

by: qu33r @ Fri May 02, 2008 at 00:49:57 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

agree!

Yes Yes Yes!  

---

by: queertodaydotcom @ Sun May 04, 2008 at 23:29:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Just some interesting data

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re...

Three recent experiments published in the latest issue of Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, an official publication of The Society for Personality and Social Psychology suggest it's not. Anger can actually prompt more careful and rational analysis of another person's reasoning.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re...

Donald Pfaff, the author of the new book The Neuroscience of Fair Play: Why We (Usually) Follow the Golden Rule, thinks he has the answer. Our brains, he says, are hardwired to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Individual acts of aggression and evil occur when this circuitry jams.

(a medical argument that homophobes are mentally ill)

One's behavior is a balance, he says, between "prosocial" and "antisocial" traits - a balance shaped by early life experiences.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/re...

New research by political scientists concludes that direct mail campaigns which include a social pressure aspect are more effective at increasing voter turnout and are cheaper than other forms of voter mobilization, including door-to-door or telephone canvassing.

The authors found that when it comes to voting, people are more likely to conform to powerful social norms--like viewing of voting as a civic duty--if they expect that their behavior will be made public.

I was looking for a study I'd seen a synopsis of, about social pressure and evidence that bullys/oppressors (like homophobes) respond to polite rebuttal with more aggression - found the above along the way.

---

by: FriendOfJonathan @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 13:08:17 PM CDT

But

how effective is your anger and protest, when the college's president writes a letter condemning your actions?

I have not seen a single article that makes the claim that this event at Smith altered their views, in a pro-homosexual manor.

While "social pressure" is a powerful tool (this has been studied by social scientists for years, and is nothing new, look at the 1950's), in this situation it does not apply. Why you may ask?

You have two groups expressing opinions
You have the leadership of the school expressing disapproval of the protesters
The protest did not shed new light on the subject, it did not enlighten those attending. It only tried to drown out the opposing view, which makes it seem (even if untrue) that the speaker had something to say, that what he was saying was so damaging to the pro-LGBT side all they could do was make sure no one could hear him.
 

Help defend equality, visit One Kalamazoo http://www.onekalamazoo.com/

---

by: Mattkazoo @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 13:49:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sleight of Hand

The answer to this:
"when the college's president writes a letter condemning your actions? "

is "Where is your condemnation of Ryan Sorba's statements?"  

Mr. Sorba's claims denigrate the lives of millions of people, attempting to incite on a broad level the outrage that was directed solely at him.  Mr. Sorba was harangued for his actions and the consequences of those actions on other people's lives, but, he harangues GLBTQ people for their very existence, without any evidnence of any negative impact on other people's lives.  Clearly, by allowing Mr. Sorba to speak, at all, the college president clearly condones a climate of hostility, so his criticism of the hostile rebuttal is dishonest and biased.

"I have not seen a single article that makes the claim that this event at Smith altered their views, in a pro-homosexual manor."

That you have not seen something does not mean it does not exist.  Frankly, the people who are likely to re-evalate their bias against GLBTQ people are unlikely to come forward, and not likely to do it overnight, so your point is meaningless.

The issue of 'social pressure' most certainly applies.  Here, a number of people have attempted to apply 'social pressure' to castigate the students at Smith, to pressure anyone else contemplating rejecting Sorba's claims in the future into sitting silent and invisible.  The fact is, what so many have argued here is nothing more than 'limit the free speech of people who oppose anti-gay prejudice'.  These folks are opining 'x kind of speech should not be allowed by society' where x equals loud, assertive rebuttal of anti-gay propoganda.  

I think it is no coincidence that some folks have deliberately focused this discussion into criticism of the student's right to free speech, instead of addressing the hate speech coming from Ryan Sorba.

So, where is the condemnation of Ryan Sorba's claims?

---

by: FriendOfJonathan @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 17:56:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Queer by Choice

I'm Queer and proud of it, but my identity comes from the free exercise of choice.  I wasn't born gay.  Mine is an acculturated choice and one I am 100% happy with.

I want a politics of choice, not accommodation.  This kind of shout-down is appalling and doesn't represent me--both sides in the description look equally cultish and anti-democratic.  

---

by: CopperStewart @ Thu May 01, 2008 at 14:59:03 PM CDT

queer queer queer

hi,
i just wanted to clarify...
many, Many of the people protesting are Queer (not gay, or believe they were "born gay", etc.)

Most people I know that were involved including myself are also what you are calling "queer by choice" and believe that gender and the concept of "sexuality" are social constructions, etc etc.  

this wasn't a protest to say "No! you're wrong! we were born gay!"  at ALL.

It was a protest against the whole thing, against having the debate framed on his terms...
To attempt to engage him in a "civil discussion" plays into his framework and validates the dichotomy he asserts.  

It was neither cultish nor anti-democratic.  
This protest was not an example of blind group-think.  
Many people went with their own plans of how they wanted to resist and engaged those plans.  
Others worked with each other "democratically" and incorporated varying ideas and concerns into their actions.

Personally, I was upset that they would invite him because it was clearly meant to be hurtful to queer students here but I do not think he should have been prohibited from coming.  
I maintain, however, that we are perfectly justified in our response(s) that led to him leaving. The majority of attendees did not think his hate should be heard and we acted to that end.

thanks for your comment, not enough people are engaging the debate from a queer-theory perspective.

---

by: qu33r @ Fri May 02, 2008 at 00:37:48 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Keep Protest Alive

Queer Activism and Protest of all kinds should be celebrated.

This kind of protest is necessary and beautiful. Don't let mainstream gay assimilationist thought be the only and most dominate form of discussion and protest.

The leadership of QueerToday applaud the efforts of these activists in shutting down this dangerous hate-speech in a similar fashion to what we did at the James Dobson conference in Boston of 2005.

Hate speech should not be tolerated on campuses, and if it is we should actively shut it down through direct action protest in the spirit of the amazing activists and revolutionaries who preceeded us from Ghandi to the Girls of Stonewall.

All forms of dissent and creative protest should be welcomed and celebrated in the Queer community - we have unfortuantely seen the decline of such protest with the recent obsession by the most privelaged in our community to gain rights through careful assimilation - draping ourselves in the American flag is not the answer to our collective liberation!

---

by: queertodaydotcom @ Sun May 04, 2008 at 23:26:19 PM CDT

Keep Protest Alive

Queer Activism and Protest of all kinds should be celebrated.

This kind of protest is necessary and beautiful. Don't let mainstream gay assimilationist thought be the only and most dominate form of discussion and protest.

The leadership of QueerToday applaud the efforts of these activists in shutting down this dangerous hate-speech in a similar fashion to what we did at the James Dobson conference in Boston of 2005.

Hate speech should not be tolerated on campuses, and if it is we should actively shut it down through direct action protest in the spirit of the amazing activists and revolutionaries who preceeded us from Ghandi to the Girls of Stonewall.

All forms of dissent and creative protest should be welcomed and celebrated in the Queer community - we have unfortuantely seen the decline of such protest with the recent obsession by the most privelaged in our community to gain rights through careful assimilation - draping ourselves in the American flag is not the answer to our collective liberation!

---

by: queertodaydotcom @ Sun May 04, 2008 at 23:26:19 PM CDT

Interesting

Well, I'll admit, this is probably a one-off. I'll post and move on unless I get a good response.

Here's the thing: in most of the posts that I've read here, nobody seems to be making an effort to rebut the claims of Sorba. Nobody. What I read is the following:
(1) Sorba is spewing "hate speech." He must be stopped.
(2) Why isn't Smith University denouncing Ryan Sorba's claims.

And that's about it. If he's wrong, then prove he's wrong. If he's not, what's your defense? For instance, one of the main claims he's making is the following: homosexual activist groups lobbied institutions like the APA during the 70's to get them to stop considering homosexuality as a disorder. And they did just that. Not based on scientific evidence and not based on the needs of patients, but rather because a group of very vocal homosexuals don't like to hear that they are not behaving in a normal and healthy way. He makes use of books (obscure to ME I'll admit) such as "And the Band Played On," "The Gay Decades," and "The Long Road to Freedom," which I've looked up on Amazon and to my eyes don't look like the writings of "right-wing shills" or what have you. So what's up? Selective quoting? Misrepresentation of viewpoints? You tell me.

So, I await an actual rebuttal to at least one of Sorba's claims if anyone can hold back their gag-reflex long enough to listen to his video and read his "book" (yes, laughable to you, but for how long?).

By the way, I'm heterosexual, white, male, and an orthodox Catholic. That is, The Enemy. Whatever objective (as opposed to perceived) mistreatment homosexuals have received in the past, it truely is a pity. Those with homosexual desires should not be discriminated against within public realms when it comes to the basic dignity befitting all men and women. I've always believed this. But I've seen enough evidence of all the political work that is being done by homosexuals (and many heterosexuals, no doubt more "enlightened" than me) to "normalize" their behavior within America, and I'm against it and for many good reasons. Yet... I'm here, because I'd like to give homosexuals a chance to critically analyze someone who they think is attacking them. I'm very interested to here what might be said.

---

by: Telemachus @ Sat May 10, 2008 at 15:30:33 PM CDT

I Know Ryan Sorba

Here is the problem.  I have known Ryan Sorba for a long time.  I teach at the college where Sorba got his BA.  He is a bully in the extreme.  I have personally been attacked by Ryan when I tried to confront him via letters--and he sent me so many nasty emails that I had to ban him.

Sorba is not interested in dialogue or truth (although he loves "debating" anyone).  He will use non-academic arguments, outdated and faulty research, etc.  The problem is that the college invited a non-expert.  That is academically wrong.  Is it right to allow a non-expert to come on campus and spout a bunch of crap?  If he was a legit researcher, this would be different.  This is hate stuff pure and simple!  If the college elevates him to a certain status that he does not deserve, what alternative is there?  You can't discuss anything with Ryan (he would post crap like 90% of gay men eat fecal matter on posters around our campus).

Ryan's only goal is to be a subpar Ann Coulter character. One thing to realize.  His book (which I am sceptical of since it seems to be self-published) is going to be used by very hateful people as truth.  He took his "proof" from discredited researchers and outdated sources, but he presents it as truth.  This is going to be a back and forth between anti-gay factions.  He is not an expert in the area; he only attacks the idea that people are born gay, but he does not "prove" how homosexuality exists.  His purpose is to hurt plain and simple.  I have been on the end of his attacks.  His own club kicked him out for hate reasons, and he has some serious issues.  I blame Smith college for not having legit standards for speakers.  I am all for free speech, but I also think that the students were not in the wrong for what they did.  If Ryan was respectful himself, I would see it differently.

---

by: Fan4ad @ Sat May 10, 2008 at 23:10:44 PM CDT