Gender-Variant Children And Transsexuals Will Likely Still Be Disordered In DSM-V

Autumn, I heard a teaser for the NPR piece today

and it made me so sad.  The mother of one of the children was talking about how her son would get quiet and go off by himself, and then they'd "catch" him playing with Polly Pockets, as if that was some great evil.  It made me want to throw something at the radio.  Exactly what is wrong with letting the child play with toys he likes?  I'm guessing he's the child who has been forced into "therapy" for coloring outside the lines of his parents' preconceived notions.

"If the apocalypse comes... beep me." -- Buffy Summers

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by: Kathy @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 23:18:57 PM CDT

Heard it too...

I'm the father of a five-year-old girl, and all I could think when I heard the Zucker "therapy" was how I couldn't imagine making my daughter that miserable, taking away her favorite toys, taking away the "wrong" color crayons, for God's sake, attacking her for being who her mind tells her she is...and how happy the other girl seemed, how at ease her parents seemed with it, how insane it is that we squeeze our children into boxes because that's what they're supposed to be.

Zucker nattered on about how hard it is for the transgendered. Well, it may be. But it's because slope-brained mouth-breathers like him keep society from advancing to the point where it isn't anymore. All I know is that somewhere in California, there's a little girl who was born a boy, who's five and whose parents are giving her a chance to be who she believes she is. And on the east coast, there's a little girl who was born a boy who's in an immense amount of pain. And the mainstream has the unmitigated gall to cast aspersions on the GLBTQ community, and accuse them of undermining "family values."  

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by: Jeff Fecke @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:12:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's what it comes down to, yes.

All I know is that somewhere in California, there's a little girl who was born a boy, who's five and whose parents are giving her a chance to be who she believes she is. And on the east coast, there's a little girl who was born a boy who's in an immense amount of pain.

No more need be said. The facts speak louder than our words could.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

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by: ZoeB @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:56:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not necessarily...

  

what they're supposed to be.

But worse, what other people want them to be, what other people want their childrent to be like.

Some fathers try making their children into great sports figures and other of their idiosyncrasies. It actually becomes idolity, to emulate these aspirations of grandeur upon your children. Raising children is not sculpture. This is abuse and cruelty, nothing more.  

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

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by: PhyllisMs @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:17:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thanks Autumn...

For this report.  How can we help expose this?  Do you have any ideas?

I think one thing that would greatly help the Trans community is education for the masses.  I didn't understand all the differences within the community until I decided that I needed to be informed after discussing Trans issues with a colleague.  He was a good guy, but like others in your report, thought Trans people had a psychiatric disorder.  At the time, I tried to explain what I thought the differences were between transsexuals, transgendered, cross-dressers, and transvestites (a term he brought up and misused).  After the discussion I went and looked up material on the subject to see if I could find answers to questions he posed that I was clueless about.  And I was ashamed at my own level of ignorance.  For instance, I switched the use of the transgender and transsexual terms in the discussion because I somehow got it in my head that because sexual attraction had nothing to do with someone who felt they were a different sex, that I should not use transsexual to describe them and instead use transgender.  I felt kinda stupid because I let the "sex" in the term throw me off.

Anyway, I'm more informed now, but I still have a long way to go.  The more I know the more I can help others know.  The more others know, the better they can handle the issues.

On another note, when the Barbara Walters special came out not too long ago I felt it really went a long way helping people understand the issues better.  Although, it didn't go far enough, I did notice people at least talking about the subject, even if they still did not understand the complexities of the issue.  I think a lot of people still have problems distinguishing between people who thay think just like to dress up in womens/mens clothes for fun (ironically mostly heterosexual having fun in the bedroom) and transsexuals and everything that goes in between.

Just some thoughts.  

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by: Will St. James @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 23:28:03 PM CDT

I have no idea.

I'm pointing it out here at PHB because I'm trying to raise awareness on Gender Identity Disorder (GID) in the DSM, and how this isn't just a transgender issue.

Many of our LGBT kids suffer because of the GID diagnosis for children...but what to do?  I don't know.

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:29:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Propose an age limit on the diagnostic criteria

That has been done over the years.
Below 18: No diagnosis of GID

You do realize that the medical model, whereby an individual who has a discord between body and brain, is the only way that surgery for individuals with GID is possible.

Without the diagnosis/treatment relationship, it becomes far to easy to stop the possibility fo surgery, which all too many transsexuals desparately need and have such a difficult time obtaining.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 15:49:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Great point and a very important...

   one I must admit. I hope some discussion on this comes about because I would love to hear other thoughts on this.

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

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by: PhyllisMs @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 20:30:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

From Josephine Tittsworth

It is important that we as a community respond to this news release. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) will be actively working very hard to create the newest version of the "Diagnotic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" version V (DSM V) which is scheduled to be available some time in, or shortly after, 2010. If Dr. Zucker is allowed on the committee to define the guidelines for diagnosing someone as Gender Identity Disorder (GID) then he will do it as a homosexual issue not GID and then implement his Reparative Therapy guide as the treatment. He will not allow the World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH) guidelines be the method on working with GID. Granted there are Pros and Cons as to whether GID should even be in the DSM to start with but as long as it is in the DSM we as a community need to respond to the APA with our comments and concerns. We can join together and write letters to APA stating our concerns and disputes with having a Biased staffing of a committee to determine the criteria for GID. Here is the address to send letters:

APA
1000 Wilson Blvd, Suite 1825
Arlington, Virginia 22209

We need to send letters and lotz of them to APA. We need to address the seriousness of staffing the committee to determine the GID criteria with a biased committee membership. Why for example are there not any Social Workers on that committee; there was one on the committee for the DSM IV?

Please post this notice to all groups across the globe!! This is very urgent!!!

Josephine Tittsworth, LMSW
Ph.D Student Graduate College of Social Work, University of Houston
NTAC Board of Directors,Research Chair
PFLAG-TNET Board of Directors, West Sector Coordinator

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~~Autumn~~

As if there were safety in stupidity alone.
--Henry David Thoreau

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by: Autumn Sandeen @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:24:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I lived 54 miserable years...

   trying to make myself into something that I was not. I never felt fulfilled in life. I always felt empty inside, like nothing was there. I was always confused by the life I was living as opposed to who I really was inside. For 54 years I sought out every male bastion to find place and I always felt out of place, a misfit. I lived a double life. One, an outward life as a heterosexual, following the males to imitate them, and a secret life following my intuitions for self preservation and fulfillment and as a young man to the safe places to meet a male.

   At early teenage that inner intuition brought me into contact with promiscuious males of their own intuition for feminine signals, which I unknowingly personafied from beneath my outer shell. These males were finding me somehow, that baffled me but what they did with me excited me beyond my comprehension. (Persona: Psychology. The role that a person assumes in order to display his concious intentions to hiself and to others. American Heritage 1980) These males ignited responses within me with their initial contact with me and natural responses came from within me in complete surrender to their advances.

   This child who has conformed himself to the will of others will live a miserable life, and will throw herself into the male bastion with abandon, as I did, even enlisting into the Marines and serving all over the world and into a war, and following masucline dominated adventures for fulfillment, but purpose won't ever come to her until the day she accepts herself as she is. I feel sorry for her that she may endure a life of which I have lived, without fulfillment, at every enpenditure.

   At 54 years old, laying in a hospital, I was very sad one day, that now that I was at the end of my life, I had lived my whole life for others and never lived my life for me, to be who I was and live my life for me. And I made up my mind that day, that if I got out of the hospital I was going to live the rest of my life for me. The rest of my life was mine and I "am going to live my life as a woman, as I have always felt that I was and that I always had wanted to live since the time that I knew that I could, in the early 70's.

   I feel sad for these children, that other humans want to defraud peoples personalities and their identities, because of a biological apendage. Horrible. People told me all of my life what I should be but not once supported who I was. SAD, and they created a sad human being who always wished for death.

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

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by: PhyllisMs @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 23:36:51 PM CDT

when will they define a disorder of parents who can't love their children AS IS?

The problem isn't the children, gender and sexuality both are on a scale, and probably no one sits at either end.
I get fed up with parents who in 2008.... STILL can't allow their children to express who they are, maybe those type shouldn't become parents.

"race, taste. and History finally overcome....and you ain't there"
by Tony Kushner

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by: peteyPornpig @ Wed May 07, 2008 at 23:51:21 PM CDT

Sadness

This continues to depress me deeply, not the least of it because it shows, once again, just how little the TG population means to the overall LGBT community. This has gotten very little coverage, yet is a crippling blow to us.

And I don't even know where to begin on helping change it, not the least reason being that, while I am an American citizen, I  live in Australia.

Why are so few "liberal" blogs talking about this? What is it going to take to get recognition and help from our supposed community?

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by: mistwolf @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:22:49 AM CDT

You don't have to be liberal

Though I am. Liberal in the Australian sense, meaning of the Right.

The Left don't talk about it because they don't understand it, and fear it. The Right is quite different: they don't talk about it because they fear it and don't understand it.

The key to success is when the Right Wing Blogs, most of whom are sane, get educated as to the facts. Those who are our most dangerous opponents become our staunchest allies that way.

Of course there's plenty of paleocon Right Wing Blogs run by raving nutters, but their credibility is inversely proportional to their volume. They're not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the Middle American consevatives who are articulate, sane, and utterly ignorant of the facts. We must reach them to win.

I fear though that our support in the Left will wane in the same proportion. But half of nearly zero is still nearly zero. Anyone who thinks the Left is truly on our side, be it in the US or Australia, hasn't been following the ENDA situation, or the Rudd government's new-found opposition to same-sex marriage now it's in power.  

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

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by: ZoeB @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:53:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

*nod*

I will be honest, though, that I just don't see most of the right wing blogs ever coming around. But you are right that the real fact is that there is noone out there, be they liberal, conservative, or whatever else that is really ready or willing to understand, let alone stand by us.

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by: mistwolf @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 22:16:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

there still is time

to contact the American Pyshciatric Assocation and demand different people be on the task force.

http://www.queersunited.blogspot.com

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by: hippie4lyfe @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:35:56 AM CDT

I'm suspicious of the timing...

of all of this.  The announcement of the committee and the NPR story with Kenny Zucker as the lead expert in the piece came out too close together.  And how did NPR All Things Considered 'find' the story, at just this moment?

The CONTACT US page at NPR specifically mentions 'pitching' story ideas to NPR.

Methinks there has been a coordinated effort to place the story and assure that it would present the 'right' viewpoint.

It would behoove organizations that support transgenders to form and support a joint public information bureau to counter the disinformation and start taking the information 'fight' to our adversaries and the general public.

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by: Hazumu @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 06:17:16 AM CDT

I would be too but...

The piece in question just doesn't seem that favourable to Zucker.

It clearly is trying to be balanced but the suffering of Zucker's patient comes through clearly as does the dubious nature of the 'conversion' where it sounds quite like the kid is learning what to do to get by, not actually what the kid now really feels.

It comes accross as someone complying with a torturers demands just to minimise the torture.

Which I suppose is just what it is.

Don't miss this http://www.npr.org/templates/s... further q and a with Zucker and the other doctor

If this is all to make Zucker look good the ethical dubiousness of his acts that seep through the article, the raw and unavoidable emotional distresss of the poor abused kid really don't seem to deliver.

His patient, utterly misserable and traumatised for something even Zucker admits has a minimum 12% failure rate and how long has he followed those he has 'treated'? He says 'when they're older'. How old? How does he know he's not creating late transitioners out of those who could have been happier transitioning early?

While the other kid? Different but happy, really happy.

The message of the article doesn't seem sufficiently on his side.

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by: battybattybats @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:11:37 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Creating Suicides and Brain Frieds

"His patient, utterly misserable and traumatised for something even Zucker admits has a minimum 12% failure rate and how long has he followed those he has 'treated'? He says 'when they're older'. How old? How does he know he's not creating late transitioners out of those who could have been happier transitioning early?"

I got my SRS in 1972.  I was in SDS/Weatherman and involved in th SF Bay Area L/G movement to remove Homosexuality from the DSM.  I worked with the National Transsexual Counseling Unit.  This has meant I have met a lot of people over the years in the Trannie Community.  Many if not most were sex workers.

Of all the forms of abuse that the kids who became sex workers and drug abusers suffered including physical, emotional, sex abuse and disowning the worst by far was suffered by those who were unfortunate enough to fall into the hands of psychiatric professionals.  Particularly those treated by so called gender therapists.  I met people who were institutionalized for 4-5 years robbing them of the education and experience needed to cope with life.  People who had their brains fried with electroshock and massive doses of anti-psychotic drugs when they were 7-10 years old.  I met someone whose parents had her lobotomized.

All this and more to treat children who are TS/TG.

Most of these so called Psychiatric Theorists are Taliban Christers and are no more reputable than their brothers at NARTH.

Next to them Dr. John Brown, often referred to as Brown the Butcher is a Saint.

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by: SuzyQ @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:16:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Be nice Suzy

I have friends who are psychiatric theorists who feel the whole AG/TG thing based upon a rigid binary of poorly adjusted homosexual vs end stage transvestic fetishist is poorly drawn up and incline to neurobiological and largely imutable causalities for the brain/body cognitive discord.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 15:58:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I would be too but...

The piece in question just doesn't seem that favourable to Zucker.

It clearly is trying to be balanced but the suffering of Zucker's patient comes through clearly as does the dubious nature of the 'conversion' where it sounds quite like the kid is learning what to do to get by, not actually what the kid now really feels.

It comes accross as someone complying with a torturers demands just to minimise the torture.

Which I suppose is just what it is.

Don't miss this http://www.npr.org/templates/s... further q and a with Zucker and the other doctor

If this is all to make Zucker look good the ethical dubiousness of his acts that seep through the article, the raw and unavoidable emotional distresss of the poor abused kid really don't seem to deliver.

His patient, utterly misserable and traumatised for something even Zucker admits has a minimum 12% failure rate and how long has he followed those he has 'treated'? He says 'when they're older'. How old? How does he know he's not creating late transitioners out of those who could have been happier transitioning early?

While the other kid? Different but happy, really happy.

The message of the article doesn't seem sufficiently on his side.

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by: battybattybats @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:11:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm a Therapist

This is enraging.

Anyone who can answer these questions gets points:

- Who appointed Zucker to Chair this Work Group?
- What do you know about the other members?

It's time for some mental health professional pushback.

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by: Screwy Hoolie @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:52:13 AM CDT

The APA probably included the objectionable members

precisely because they are objectionable. The neurobiological basis of GID is pretty well  established, with mutliple causalities contributing to the outcome.

As far as the medical model right now, GID ends up a neurobiologically based disorder with a specific medical treatment protocal defined by the Standards of Care.(all of this according to my friend of operative history)

She has no particular objection to the concept of autogynophilia, though she says that the diagnostic criteria is currently poorly constructed and that the proponents simplistic construction of it into a binary either-or model is badly flawed and needs re-worked.

I know of two psychiatrists of operative history, one of whom does publish and speak on issues of Gender Identity and Treatment, Melanie Spritz. Perhaps someone ought to approach Dr. Spritz about dicussing the dignostic approach and perhaps speaking out about concerns?

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:20:54 AM CDT

Thanks Autumn

I have been following this all over the web, and it is important to get the word out to the whole LGBT community, because if they manage to change the treatment of transfolk away from the WPATH model, the next step will be the repatholigization of homosexuality in the ex-gay model. Right now the situation looks bleak, but......

I see the day where we are openly able to create pushback in the wider LGBT community on the APA, and the fact that we can make statements like:

Needless to say, gender-variant LGBT and straight youth, as well as transsexual adults, will likely have to deal with another decade plus of being considered seriously disordered -- with its conversion therapy implication for children.

says to me that the light at the end of the tunnel is in sight. Some will say its an oncoming train, but I disagree. Change over the last 50 years has overall been in one direction, the depatholigization and demarginalizaion of the various communities in the LGBTQI. The Intersex community is already mobilizing against this change as is the trans community. It is time for the LGB community to join in and stop this encroachment of bad science in the name of social conservatism before it gets anywhere near starting to take away the rights already gained. With a widespread outrage and pushback on the APA's new direction, this could become another one of those watershed moments for the entire community with everyone standing together rather than letting them divide us and conquer us one at a time.  

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by: ShannonB @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:38:01 AM CDT

I doubt that Dr. Zucker....

...can be characterized as a "slope-brained mouth-breather." All of these doctors, professors and therapists are trying to help children.

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by: Holly in Cincinnati @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:51:18 AM CDT

They would insist they're trying to help them

But what they're really doing is helping to enforce a damaging ideology on innocent children.  They claim that gender conformity is necessary for these children to live comfortably in our society, but the goal of their police actions is to ensure that they and other fearful people can continue to feel comfortable with the status quo, i.e. not have their assumptions challenged.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

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by: Sportin' Life @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 13:25:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Possible comparison?

"We know you're left-handed but the world is only built for right-handed people.  So, for your own good and to make it much easier for you to function in the world, we're going to fix you and cure you of your left-handedness disorder.  We're going to put your left hand in a boxing glove and then strap it to your waist and then lock it there until you learn to use your right hand for everything.  If you try to unlock your left hand or use it for anything, you will be punished."

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by: Jami @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:52:31 AM CDT

A Typical Joe at TMV on the NPR story

NPR: 2 families, 2 approaches to gender identity
http://themoderatevoice.com/so...

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by: Holly in Cincinnati @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:52:45 AM CDT

I forwarded this thread...

   to my therapist, in hopes she will forward to some of her collegues. Maybe there could be a ground swell within the profession. It will be very interestiing to follow this development. I will write also the APA.  

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

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by: PhyllisMs @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:29:37 PM CDT

Again, there are.....

...at least two psychiatrists who are women of operative history, one of whom does speak on the subject, Dr. Melanie Spritz. Could the T community entice her to discuss the diagnostic issues in a public forum and in a scholary article?

There are multiple other physicians who could be heard from as well who have operative histories, as I understand it. It would be both interesting and informative to hear from them as well.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 16:10:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I also heard it

Thanks for your post Autumn. I also heard the NPR piece last night and am deeply saddened by Bradley's "therapy" with Dr. Ken Zucker. Geez, take away all her toys, and she doesn't want to play anymore, no surprise! It is a total travesty him being head of the DSM-V committee, I will be writing a letter to the APA.

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by: zythyra @ Thu May 08, 2008 at 14:44:16 PM CDT

Actionable!

According to this blogpost we can make ourselves heard by emailing the following users at psych.org: apa and rroyce.  Also the address sreis at gymr dot com.  

Additionally, one can call 1-888-35-PSYCH to be heard.

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by: dreamingkat @ Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:29:24 AM CDT

wrong link!

Sorry, the link I got the info from was: http://queersunited.blogspot.c...

(same blog, different post, sorry)

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by: dreamingkat @ Sun May 11, 2008 at 02:31:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]