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The Christian Civic League of Maine's Mike Hein calls Pam's House Blend:
"a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy."

He is "praying that Pam Spaulding will "turn away from her wicked and sinful promotion of homosexual behavior." (CCLM's web site, 10/15/07)


Ex-gay "Christian" activist James Hartline on Pam:
"I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians."
(from "Six Years In Sodom: From The Journal Of James Hartline," 9/4/2006, written from the "homosexual stronghold" of Hillcrest in San Diego).

"Pam is a 'twisted lesbian sister' and an 'embittered lesbian' of the 'self-imposed gutteral experiences of the gay ghetto.'" -- 9/5/2008



Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth Against Homosexuality heartily endorses the Blend, calling Pam:

A "vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist."
(Concerned Women for America's radio show [9:15], 1/25/07)

"A nutty lesbian blogger."
(MassResistance radio show [16:25], 2/3/07)


Pam's House Blend always seems to find these sick f*cks. The area of the country she is in? The home state of her wife? I know, they are everywhere. Pam just does such a great job of bringing them out into the light.
--Impeach Bush


who monitors yours Bevis ?? Just thought I would drop you a line,so the rest of your life is not wasted.
--"Joe"

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Mike Signorile tries to bore into the 'if not Hillary, I'm voting McCain' logic

by: Pam Spaulding

Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 09:00:00 AM EDT


It was a difficult day on The Michelangelo Signorile Show yesterday, as Mike spoke with several callers who are ready to vote for John McCain before casting a ballot for Barack Obama.

In the clip below, the caller cites a few reasons I've seen out there, including: 1) we know McCain, we don't know Obama; 2) There's just something about him (Obama) I don't like. Watch it:

This whole call needs to be transcribed and circulated because we seriously need to have a discussion about the underlying issues here that are hitting on the third rail. Mike challenges the caller to explain these positions, given the huge political gulf between McCain and Obama on nearly every issue. The caller ends up admitting that his decision to vote for McCain is not based on logic.

Caller: My arguments aren't logical...this is what my gut is telling me; I don't consider myself a racist or bigoted...there's just something about the man I don't like and I'm not going to vote for him."

Mike: It's funny that you say your gut is telling you this and then you go on to say that you're not a racist, funny how that works, right? Because maybe your gut is telling you something that you're not wanting to admit...but listen, but you should be voting based on logic, based on rationality. What Republicans want is for you to vote on emotion. And you are a perfect example of how they get votes from people who are voting against their own self interest.

Obama's and Clinton's positions are far closer than Obama vs. McCain -- it doesn't make any sense to vote for McCain. For some, not all - there really is a deep-seated fear out there about being led by a black man, so much so that they'd vote for McCain. They think electing Barack Obama is somehow going to erase white privilege --  as if it was possible -- and then exact some sort of revenge for past wrongs perpetrated on minorities. Jesse and I blogged about this jokingly the other day, but this aspect of the rejection of Obama is not being honestly articulated -- the caller in this case went out of his way to bring up how he's not racist -- when race had not come up in the conversation at all up until that point.

Another caller provided a comment on Mike's blog. Read it below the fold.

Pam Spaulding :: Mike Signorile tries to bore into the 'if not Hillary, I'm voting McCain' logic
He makes a charge about "black racism" that I don't understand at all, and cites a personal story about being harassed by blacks for supporting Hillary.
I called in to today's show and said that I was concerned about the black racism being displayed over the campaign. I know that you only have a short time to make your point, so I want to elaborate on what I was saying. First, of all, I have been so sick and tired of the Obama-files belief that everyone who does not support their demi-god of being a racist. Where yes I do believe racism exists, everyone that doesn't vote for him will have their own reasons not simply because of his skin color.

As I was saying on the show today, the thing that has really turned me off to voting for Obama is this permission that he, his supporters, and the media give to blatant black racism. The implication that black voters are more valuable than white voters (seems to me I remember a shit storm when Hillary referred to the "hard working, white Americans" referring to Obama's problem in that demographic, since obviously he didn't have problems with the hard working, black Americans, why would she include them in her statement, notice the placement of the comma) But I digress, the fact that after both of the Pastorgate controversies no one said anything about the excitement level (the hooping and hollering) of the blacks listening during the very sexist and blatant racists statements being said of Clinton.

This point is strictly anecdotal, but I drive a truck for a living (which is why I am James from somewhere new every time I call) and I meet many people every day, at truck stops, shippers, receivers, you name it. I also have a Hillary Clinton for President sticker on my truck. I on two occasions in different states was called a N*****HATER in Mississippi and a Klansman in Georgia, both of these comments were made by black people and all based on a sticker I have in my window. This brings me to my concern, will electing Obama bring about a movement where black racism against whites will be commonplace and come out of the proverbial closet??? I seems to have been excused this entire primary process from the supporters of the black candidate, and for the white candidate it seemed to be a minefield covered by eggshells.

I have to ask does this concern you Mike or anyone else? Is this something that anyone but me things needs to be discussed. Where I will NEVER vote for John McCain, I think this being unchecked could seriously damage the Democratic Party's chances of retaining the White House in the years to come. Please let me know what you think.

Now, the behavior of these people in these two instances is ridiculous and offensive -- and it's inexcusable. That does not mean, however, by default, all black people feel that way, or all white people who voted for Hillary are racist. Barack Obama ran a campaign that intentionally did not focus on race -- it always came up in the context of someone else raising it. But it was raised, and the heat generated from it laid bare all the discussions we haven't had as a country about race.

I agree with the commenter that leaving the feelings out there unanalyzed and unchecked is damaging -- but precious few people want to speak frankly about their fears and feelings on this subject.

How can we pull apart and discuss these issues? We cannot continue to bury them -- all this does is benefit the GOP, which loves seeing this unfold.

UPDATE: I wanted to include this exchange over at Pandagon (where I cross post), because it adds another dimension to the issue:

My parents are in their sixties both of them are lifelong Democrats and right now both of them are saying they wont vote for Obama.  I think they may change their minds as they are afraid of what McCain might do to the economy, especially as it relates to social security and medicare.
Both of them say they don't trust Obama, and I think they don't trust him because he doesn't live up, or down, to what they expect a black person to be.  In other words in their mind black people are not supposed to care about white people, so he must be faking it when he talks about programs that would help the entire country, including white americans.

It is hard to explain but it seems that if you have low expectations of someone when they exceed those expectations it is like you assume they are cheating, if you know anyone who teaches high school you can see this at work whenever they grade papers.

My response there was:

Personally, this is the kind of thing that makes me feel hollow sometimes makes me feel despair. I've had to deal with not being "black enough", or hailed for being "not like most black people" or some other insane yardstick of judgment that I'm sure rings true for many POC out there. If you're too smart, you're arrogant and uppity, if you aren't brilliant enough or make mistakes most human beings do, then you represent all of the black, low-info, shiftless underclass. Having been the first or only black person in many of the professional positions I've held, I'm keenly aware that white privilege means I'm a racial stand-in for a whole group of people, and that any POC who follow me will be judged, fairly or unfairly, by the trail I've blazed.  I cannot even begin to imagine the pressure on Barack Obama.

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What I find interesting
Is how Clinton's supporters complain about being called racist for not supporting Obama, something Obama's campaign has never claimed or condoned, but Clinton's own campaign has played the gender card more than a few times.

I've said in the past I wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton in the general, but truth be told once confronted with the choice in the voting booth between her and McCain, I would have held my nose and voted for her anyway just like I did with John Kerry in 2004. I think many of the Clinton supporters who claim they will vote for McCain over Obama now will change their minds at the last minute in the voting booth because of what McCain represents. At least I hope so.

Never try to train a pig. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.


Pride
I think your statement goes along with the fact that Obama can't talk about the pride he feels in being the first Black nominee, while Hillary can talk repeatedly about the strides she's made as a female candidate.  Some commentators were surprised that he wasn't direct about it on Tuesday, but he wouldn't be where he is today if he announced his racial pride as much as Hillary has spoken about the pride in being a female candidate.  

[ Parent ]
There is a double standard
Clinton can get away with playing up the fact she's a woman but Obama cannot play up the fact he's not white (although others certainly have made much ado over that fact).

Obama wasn't my first choice due to the McClurkin fiasco, but Hillary Clinton has been at the bottom of my list from the beginning due to her inability to keep any promises she has made to the LGBT community. I know my first choice, Kucinich didn't stand a chance to get elected and he knew it too, but I voted for him anyway to send a message to the eventual nominee that what he represents is important and s/he needs to pay attention to it. I think we stand a far better chance under Obama than we do Clinton and I'm glad he prevailed.

Never try to train a pig. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.


[ Parent ]
I have serious issues with Obama, particularly with his attitude towards equal marriage
But take any issue and compare him with McCain, and Obama will win my support every time (although, granted, it won't be enthusiastic support very often.)

We know how bad McCain will be for this country. How in the world could anyone support him over Obama, just because we do not know how bad Obama might be? Crimeny, if I had McCain waiting for me at home, I would be the one offering candy to strangers and asking for a ride in their car.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.


On marriage equality
I think that with either Sen Obama or Sen Clinton that there is a chance that advocacy and education/information on the subject would help move them closer to what we consider the ideal.  I am not sanguine that the same would hold with Sen McCain.


[ Parent ]
McCain's Senate Chief of Staff
is an openly gay man who has been in a committed relationship for close to 20 years. Obviously, even knowing a gay couple hasn't had an impact on John McCain. Or should I say obviously knowing a gay couple hasn't kept John McCain from throwing them and every other gay/lesbian person under the bus to advance his political aspirations?

Gotta love the 'TRUE' integrity of the Maverick!


[ Parent ]
re:
what are you talking about his attitude toward equal marriage? neither he nor hilliary are for marriage equality (unless i missed something).

[ Parent ]
That is my serious issue: he adamantly refuses to support equal marriage
But Zorya makes an excellent point: Obama is probably open to learning how hurtful and wrong his attitude towards equal marriage really is, especially given that nearly identical laws would have outlawed the marriage of his own parents. McCain... not so much.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.

[ Parent ]
Politically he can't afford to say he does
But he will do nothing to hinder it and is fully capable of a public conversion later.

I've seen him get the marriage question in a town hall setting. You can tell he has no belief in his response to it, he's not a good liar.

As a liberal con-law professor he knows where we're going, as a politician who must get elected he can't always say so.


[ Parent ]
I've wondered myself
Whether this might be the case. He has been pretty supportive of other GLBT issues in his tenure in the Illinois senate and at the national level. And if memory serves, I believe he's said that while he believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman, he's open to discussing this issue. That in itself, a willingness to hold discussions on issues and hold open the possibility of having his opinion changed by reasoned arguments, is cause enough to support him over McCain.  

[ Parent ]
Enabler
Every person that puts politics before principles enables the continuation of a biased and unexamined status quo.

Obama is not exempt from being logical as a constitutional lawyer just because he is a politician.

Don't enable intolerance, cowardice, and insincerity.


[ Parent ]
Nor Hillary so much, either.

Do remember the now-infamous moments when both former-but-undeclared gubernatorial candidate Spitzer and Senator Schumer were, themselves, pushing the marriage issue much earlier this decade.

At that time, Clinton, in taking a moment from (1) co-sponsoring the Republican Flag Burning Initiative and (2) arguing "let states decide" for abortion, went into a wild screed about still supporting DOMA and how, when it came to partnerships, STATES should decide; marriage was, however, utterly out.

That particular moment was actually quite priceless as Senator Schumer responded with, "I would like to take this opportunity to remind the junior Senator from New York she no longer lives in Arkansas."

Good riddance to bad rubbish.


[ Parent ]
I love Mike's Response to that Caller
A lot of these comments from non-Obama voters are blatantly racist, and based on racial privilege.  The whole idea that you're not racist because you're not in the Klan needs examining.  If you're not a racist, but....  Or if one of your best friends is.....  um, time to take a closer look.  Unfortunately, this is pretty common in the "progressive" community, as is sexism and homophobia.  Unexamined privilege is one of the greatest scourges of our society, and it's painfully ironic and damaging when it pops up in "progressive" circles.  The only was to deal with this is to address it.

Agree with you
I'm automatically suspicious whenever I hear someone start a statement with, "I'm not racist, but...."  I've heard my mom say this my entire life right before she says something mildly offensive or ignorant.  Growing up in this society (and true of other societies as well), we are all exposed to racist ideas, and some of them tend to get ingrained in us whether we like it or not.  But we can't stand the idea that we might be racist, so we just pretend it's not there.  And leaving it unexamined just makes it worse.  People get defensive when their unexamined racist feelings are triggered.  

But I don't have an answer to the question about how we should address these things.  In personal relationships, you have to talk through the things that bother you in order to come to an understanding and move forward.  But you can do that with your spouse, sibling, or friend because you trust each other.  When you're talking about the American public, and we don't trust each other, how do you do it?


[ Parent ]
Commenter is racist on the surface
Just by making certain comments that lump all African-Americans together, the commenter is expressing racist ideas. For example:

But I digress, the fact that after both of the Pastorgate controversies no one said anything about the excitement level (the hooping and hollering) of the blacks listening during the very sexist and blatant racists statements being said of Clinton.

and

on two occasions in different states was called a N*****HATER in Mississippi and a Klansman in Georgia, both of these comments were made by black people and all based on a sticker I have in my window.

Thus, one or more African-Americans automatically are stand-ins for an entire "race" (I hate that concept, as it is a human creation, not a scientific classification) and their attitudes/ideas reflect on all others of African descent. Yet an all-white audience laughing at a sexist Clinton joke would never be considered to represent all people of European descent.

At the same time, I think it is imperitive that we separate this kind of unconscious racism - which is more likely caused by societal forces than an actual belief in the inferiority of any one group - and active, KKK-like attacks on basic human freedoms. I believe one of the reasons people recoil from identifying their own racism is because our society has shifted so much that racist=evil in everyday language, and people do not want to believe they are evil, so they deny the more isidious forms of racism. The important thing is for people to recognize their racist thinking and actively try to change it.

 


[ Parent ]
Hillary's blog...
I hope more radio talk shows and blogs bring up this issue and confront it so bluntly like Mike did. If you go to Hillary's website and check what her supporters are saying we are in for a scary November election. Her supporters do not seem to understand what a vote for McCain means. I hope at the end they come around, but in the meantime I am worried.

The Hillary blog is scary
I've been to that blog, and it is pretty scary.  But, I've taken solace in the fact that it seems like it's pretty much the same handful of people posting over and over again.  Those people aren't knowledgeable about politics, or Obama's record, and sadly they have no intention of educating themelves about either.  

We can also take solace in the fact that even though these people are loud, they don't represent all Hillary supporters.  I don't know why so many people think that a vote for Hillary was a vote against Obama, or vice versa.  I don't see how people could believe that the 18 million people who vote for Hillary won't vote for Obama.  


[ Parent ]
They're still bitter
The general campaign just started. There is still plenty of time. I think that by the time November gets here that whatever remains of this cohort will stay home along with the Republicans who can't bring themselves to vote for McCain. There are a lot of them who won't lift a finger to actively support Obama, but neither will they lift a finger to stand in his way when election day comes.

If my admittedly tiny sample of non-Obama voters is any indication, their choices are vote Obama, Bob Barr, or stay home -- in that order. Voting McCain is an empty threat. By November it will be unthinkable.

I can't help but thinking that the Hawaii portion of BO's bio would be helpful to these people too. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it makes clear that he's different from the African American experience they are used to. Punahou might have a funny name, but it's the Pacific's Exeter. The downside is that Hawaii just makes him less like most people -- which is why he almost never mentions it.  


"With all due respect"
When people preface or interlace comments about Obama with protestations that they're not racist or don't consider themselves such, I recall a recent squib by Jon Stewart where he noted how new Yorkers (and others) often introduced nasty remarks with the tag, "With all due respect--" (I grew up there--this is true). And then he followed with a series of lines like, "Your mother's a ho."  These people claiming some aversion to Obama that isn't race-based are so obviously speaking against the truth of their own beliefs or feelings, and revealing them, and I think it's a good idea to try to respectfully dig into what's going, as Signorile did.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Hawaii P.S.
It makes him like Bette Midler!!!

How can LGBT voters resist?

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


[ Parent ]
Differences
Obama's life is different from the images of black people that most American's are used to seeing on tv.  There are rougly 35 million black people in this country, and every single one of us has different backgrounds, cultures and experiences.

I think Obama needs to define himself, but many will still use the fact that he's "different" against him.  For example, he has always had friends of different races and religious backgrounds, but an article on AP last week stated that many of his Muslim friends are afraid to speak up for him, because they know that the media and others will use it against him.  I've heard people say he has too many white friends or too many black friends.  The people who want to label him, or find a reason based on race not to vote for him, will do it no matter what his true biography is.  Many still can get over the fact that he got into Harvard on his own merits, or that he graduated at the top of his law class.


[ Parent ]
It's Not Always the Hillary/Racist Thing Though
I personally have difficulty voting for Obama because of the fact he deliberately snubbed me and my state. Michigan's primary used to be held in August. By then this process would normally be over and it was a waste of money to even have it just simply because all the votes did was reinforce who was already winning and they were already thinking about November because the convention was not even 2 weeks after.

So Michigan decided to do something about it and moved its primary up to actually have a voice instead of just being and echo. And we got "punished" for it. First the candidates pledged not to campaign in both Michigan and Florida. Then every big-name candidate EXCEPT Hillary took the extra step to spit on Michigan by withdrawing from the primary. Obama did it on the very last day he could.

The "compromise" now is that my primary vote got sheared in half. Why support a party that cut my first vote in half?

So why should I vote for him? Im not going to vote for McCain either since he went from maverick to tool and probably only got the nomination out of pity like Bob Dole did.

I really have now seen what Joan Rivers meant in 2004. When asked by Graham Norton if she liked Bush or Kerry she responded "Oh I hate them all. That's like asking me 'Whose your favorite Menendez brother?'".

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


though how is this Obama's fault?
The DNC told Michigan pols what the consequences are and they still moved it up. That's not Obama's fault -- or Hillary's. They agreed to all of those rules up front.

It's not as if I don't feel for you - NC has its primary in May, and most of the time the race is decided by then too; it just happened not to be this time. But MI politicians should have reconsidered that initial decision, given the DNC's harsh punishment.

The anger should now be re-directed into revisiting why the states vote in the order that they do - that's a party matter.


[ Parent ]
Ohio, too
In 2004 the nomination was decided before we had our primary.  So I voted for Dean, as his name was still on the ballot.  (Shrug) Since it didn't make a difference I could vote whatever and not affect the outcome.

This year we thought it would be more of the same - the nomination process would be essentially over by the time the Ohio primary rolled around.  Did we get a big surprise.

The turnout in Dayton was absolutely amazing.  We voted early at the Board of Electors and had to wait over an hour in line to get our ballot.  It was exhilarating.

I am sorry that the voters in Michigan were not able to share in the excitement of the primaries.  However, I do understand the position of the DNC.  If rules are not enforced then the whole primary season becomes a race to the front of the line, which will profit no one.

I think instead of stripping Michigan of all it's delegated that a half vote per delegate penalty would have been sufficient.


[ Parent ]
The penalty--
--was in fact cutting the delegate count by 50%

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
Well, yes
When all was said and done at the RBC.  If the DNC had done that in advance like the Republicans did in Florida there wouldn't have been this kuufuffle.  

[ Parent ]
CA regrets
I heard California pundits on television the other night lament the early primary held here in February.  We had another election this week on June 3 - the date we would have also voted on the primary if we hadn't pushed the date to February.

Because of the way the Obama v Clinton battle raged on for months and months these two guys wondered if it wouldn't have been more advantageous for us to wait until June to get more of the candidates attention and have more influence on the outcome instead joining the herd mentality and vote early.  

Its all Monday morning quarterbacking.  Primary races have a role, but the important election is in November.  


[ Parent ]
Yes, good point
This cycle showed why having a drawn out process is sometimes helpful.  It was a little too long, in my opinion, but it was ultimately beneficial for democracy that our candidates got to fight it out over an extended time period.  I also like that there were different selection methods used in different states, i.e. caucuses, open and closed primaries.

Before this cycle I would have definitely supported a single national primary election day for everyone.  But now, I'm not sure....  (There's certainly no reason why NH and IA always have to be first, however.)

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


[ Parent ]
I tend to agree with you,
  I believe a better way would be to choose 6 states to have a primary election or caucuses.   Than the next week another 6 do the same.  That would be close to 25% of the states voting.  give two weeks and than have 6 more states vote.  give a week and than 7 states.  50% would have voted, showing who the frontrunners are and at the same time keeping all names on the ballot.  Continue the process untill all states have voted.  meanwhile we get to now more of where each candidate stands on issues.  When all the states have voted, the candidate with the most delegates wins.  End of the primaries.   And most of all, get rid of the super delegates.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

[ Parent ]
It is Obama's fault...
... because he removed himself from the Michigan ballot. He made a choice that told me "You know what? I don't want your vote."

If he didn't want it then, why should he get it now?

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


[ Parent ]
My oh my...
...you ARE angry, aren't you?

[ Parent ]
No...
...not really. I just calls it as I sees it.

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


[ Parent ]
Then I assume ...
...that you didn't vote for Al Gore in 2000 because every Democratic candidate took their name of the ballot when MI tried to jump ahead in the schedule that year. http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe20...

MI pulled this stunt one other time and all of the Dems pulled their names then too.


[ Parent ]
I didn't vote for Al Gore...
...because I wasn't allowed to vote period.

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


[ Parent ]
Well, I was old enough to vote in 2000
Let me share something I learned then: Votes aren't symbols. Votes aren't toys.

[ Parent ]
Jon, if Michigan had stuck to Feb 5th...
... we all could have avoided this mess.  But Sen Levin was determined that the Michigan primary should be in the spotlight.

He got his wish.

I am sorry that you, and millions of other Michigan voters, were slighted by the way the primary was handled.  Certainly it was botched.  But I don't see why you are blaming the presidential candidates since they were simply trying to play by the rules.

If you want allies, you have to be an ally.


[ Parent ]
Levin is a doofus
He tried to do the same thing in 2004 and was warned by the DNC. Why he persisted this year is ludicrous.  What would have been wrong with a February date??

Dale, you're absolutely right and have the facts on your side.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


[ Parent ]
How Is It Levin's Fault?
He may have expressed a desire for this, but needed to get through Granholm, the MI House (which yes, is Democratic majority... by 6) and the MI Senate (which is Republican... by 4).

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


[ Parent ]
Becauyse he wa spushing for it--
--behind the scenes and has been utterly unapologetic about what he did.  Believe me, I know, his office sent me a letter explaining his indefensible stance.  He saw himself as a leader in moving the primary to the illegal date. I'm sorry if you don't believe him, but them's the facts.

As for the GOP, they were happy to screw up our primary, don't you get it?

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


[ Parent ]
No....
... the Democrats screwed our primary up. The Republicans just helped us along. They were neat and orderly about punishing their voters where as the Democrats made fools of themselves by turning it into the grand staged event it became.

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


[ Parent ]
I was replying to your implicit argument--
--that Levin couldn't have done much because the Michigan House is GOP controlled, that's all. Our party nabobs did it, and they helped.  Blame Brewer, Levin, Stabenow and Granholm, who should have had more sense, but not the candidates.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report

[ Parent ]
But...
What rule said "Major name candidates must removed themselves from the ballot" though?

THAT'S my bone to pick with Obama.

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


[ Parent ]
What?
How did Obama personally cause this problem?  Hillary also supported the decision to take away MI's votes, were you not mad at her.  And can you tell me when you decided this was a problem?  I can't understand why so many voters are upset about this now, but didn't say a word about it for months after the decision was made.  It's not like the DNC made this decision the day before the election, the citizens of MI had over a month to protest, and make it known how stupid this decision was.  The decision didn't just suddenly become stupid because Hillary was losing.  

[ Parent ]
It's NOT About Hillary
We're not stupid here in Michigan. We know that we were only an means to an end for her when she began to slide.

But that's beside the point as she is now out of the picture. She at least gave us an opportunity to voice support for her in some way. Obama did not. "Uncommitted" does not equal "Barak Obama" I'm sorry.

Jon aka The Angry Fag
http://www.theangryfag.com/
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAngryFag


[ Parent ]
It's NOT about Hillary?

We're not stupid here in Michigan.

Right - sure!

snicker


[ Parent ]
I'm a Michigander and don't agree
Okay, why blame Obama?  He didn't spit on us, that's totally off-base.

He was told by the DNC that votes for him wouldn't count and so he followed the rule of the national party.  You're angry?  So am I.  Do what I did. I wrote Levin and Granholm (whose husband I know) expressing my outrage, and Mark Brewer, too, the head of the party in Michigan.

How can you say he snubbed Michigan?  He and Hillary were told the primary wouldn't count and they both agreed not to campaign here.

As a gay man, I could never vote for McCain whose hostility to our community is on record.  Obama is more open-minded and I believe can become more so.  But McCain is Bush with more of a chip on his shoulder and an anger management problem.  We need every vote possible in this swing state to keep Bush and the GOP from gaining a third term in which to further degrade the environment, shred the Constitution, keep torturing people, appointing rightwing judges, etc.

"In order to maintain an untenable position, you have to be actively ignorant."  The Colbert Report


Hear, hear! HRC was the one who went against the party
So far as I am concerned, this is a f/u that the DNC and the MI Dem Party apparatus and Sens. should share. HRC sided with the MI Dem Party and went against the DNC. Obama sided with the DNC. So far as I am concerned, Michiganders should take up this f/u with their own state party. I sympathize with a sense of disenfranchisement, but it's the MI Dem Party's fault.

[ Parent ]
thanks for this comment

I just read this comment and have to say I find the pragmatic view refreshing:  the blaming the participant rather than the perpetrator was getting on my last blasted nerve (as indicated by my snarkiness above).

Thanks much for putting this in clear terms.

Now, can we please move on and elect a Democrat into every bloody office possible?!


[ Parent ]
As a Hillary Supporter
I have said all along that if Obama ended up as the democratic nominee I would vote for him and I will. The idea of McCain being the next president is enough to give me nightmares, and Barr is not even a prospect for me. How could I trust a man who sponsored the DOMA only to recant just so he could get the nod from the Independent party.
I also won't just "stay home" either. That's the coward's way out.

There really is not that much difference between Obama and Clinton in policy and beliefs. There were two reasons that I went with Hillary. One was I Really felt it was time a woman made it to the presidency and Hillary was the strongest candidate we had to break that glass ceiling. The other reason was Obama made me afraid of his motives with the Donnie McClurkin fiasco. I also didn't (and still don't) like the subtle and not so subtle comments from TPTB and others that I take to be sexist when reffering to Hillary. I may not look it in real life, but I am a true feminist at heart and proud of it. I understand that the Obama people feel the same (as do I) about the subtle and very much not so subtle racist remarks towards Obama. Both camps have reason to be angry at some of the things that have been said and written about their candidate. Hopefully, it will soon die down, at least among us Democrats. Lord knows what the Republicans have in store.

By the way, I received a note from the Clinton campaign (written in the name of Hillary Clinton and probably sent to thousands) that says in part:

On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my support for his candidacy. This has been a long and hard-fought campaign, but as I have always said, my differences with Senator Obama are small compared to the differences we have with Senator McCain and the Republicans.

I have said throughout the campaign that I would strongly support Senator Obama if he were the Democratic Party's nominee, and I intend to deliver on that promise.



"hard working Americans, white Americans"
What's interesting about this comment is that Clinton supporters parsed this to mean "hard working white Americans" while Obama supporters take it to mean that the only hard working Americans are white Americans. It can probably be reasonably parsed both ways.

To me, the second meaning is the most logical. If Hillary had meant hard working white Americans and she had just forgotten or was hesitant in including the adjective "white" the first time, the way to be clear and correct the statement is "hard working Americans, I mean hard working White Americans."

But what "hard working Americans, white Americans" looks like to me (and a lot of  other people) is "hard working Americans = white Americans" with the implied negation of the statement also true, i.e. "lazy (non-hard working) Americans = Black (non-white) Americans" which is a racist trope.

That this particular Hillary supporter didn't even consider such a meaning communicates to me that he is not very sensitive on racial issues.

Another message Hillary's misstatement sent was that in HER MIND hard-working Americans are only White, which as I said before, re-emphasizes a racist trope about black people "being shiftless and lazy."

So her hesitation in saying the word "white" for fear of being called racist or bringing up race actually led to her demostrating to many that she either had a racist thought at that moment, or she was deliberately communicating racist imagery to anyone in earshot at the time.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Mad Professah Lectures http://madprofessah.com
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell


That caller is scared spitless, and he is not alone
Just think about what he is worried about here:

This brings me to my concern, will electing Obama bring about a movement where black racism against whites will be commonplace and come out of the proverbial closet???

I think that every white American knows in their heart, or maybe in their gut, to quote another caller, that Black people still today are the targets of the scourge of inequality.  Even those who rail against such things as affirmative action know that a black job seeker is operating under a huge disadvantage compared to a white.  They know exactly what the term "Driving while Black" means, they are not surprised that store security follows Black shoppers around while ignoring the white shoplifters, or that taxicabs stop for whites but not Blacks.  These are the people that Chris Rock refers to when he points out that even though he is now insanely rich, no white person would trade places with him if it meant that they had to be Black in America.

That caller, and many others like him know that Blacks have been and still are being screwed over by this society, and they fear that the Black community is harboring secret plans to get their payback for all those years that we have oppressed them.

These fearful whites don't have the advantage that I do, of my gayness making me a minority.  While being gay doesn't, and never could, recreate for me the experience of being Black, it has very much taught me what it is like to be "other" in our society.  The fact that I have chosen, these past 35+ plus years, to live my life openly and honestly has taught me that I have far more in common with People of Color than with that white majority in which I was born.

I know, from that experience that those who are working their way toward equality in this country don't harbor an anger and a wish to punish those who have held them down, but simply long for, and work for the day when we all can start on an equal footing, not having our lives judged on such inconsequential traits such as skin color or sexual orientation.  

So the question that we might ask ourselves is how to we calm the fears that this caller expressed?  How do we get across the idea that most Blacks and other minorities don't see Obama's election as a chance to get back at Whitey, but rather a chance to say "Thank God.  Thank God, my fellow citizens are finally coming to their senses"?


agree.
I think Obama has to be calm and bland and business-like (as he is), and the supporters have to be pushing gut issues important to all or most Americans - health care, economy, the mess the war has left. The concept is to have the novelty wear off.

[ Parent ]
You hit the nail on the head,
  I have seen it up close as I grew up in a rural pro KKK area of Florida.  Many have the fear of retrobution of having what they did to one group of people happen to them.

 Another place this racial fear is shown well is regarding the Mexican population taking the White man's job.  

 The screaming of affirmative action GIVING others what white people work hard for sends me through the roof. There was no giving, all that was required by affirmative action was opening the door to another human being that is different the chance to shine and be productive citizens.

 The What will they do to punish us if they have power? is admitting guilty they know they did something wrong.

 The white supremists are so busy rewriting history they fail to see the changes they are making.  

 They same goes for the anti-gay religious right today.  Just look at them whine how we will lock them in their churches and silence free speech.  No matter how many times we say that is not our goal they keep spewing that garbage.  I think they know what they are doing is wrong and that is the punishment they are recommending for themselves.

 

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.


[ Parent ]
yeah well...
We've gotten this far without those donkey's which are called asses.  We will get even further.  If HRC believes 18million people aren't going to the polls or are only going to vote for McCain that woman is drunk in arrogance power white privilege and so forth - the very thing which has gotten her sexist card playing behind sent home.  

Vote 4 McCain ain't nobody begging you not to - idiots and fools!


Said it before and I'll say it again...
...anyone who claims to be a Democrat/progressive and says they're voting for McCain is either a liar or a spiteful moron. End of story.

As a Hillary supporter,
I will most certainly cast my ballot for Obama.  I preferred her, but not because I dislike him.  Fact is, I dislike some things about both of them, and I like some things about both of them.  Since I consider both to be qualified for the job, I can without guilt enjoy the identity politics side of my vote.  The opportunity to vote for a well qualified woman or black person is sheer delight.

Have patience with the pro-Hillary whiners who vow to vote McCrackety.  They are hurting, but most will get over it.  A historian on NPR the other day said that similar threats are routinely raised by disappointed supporters of failed candidates.  But those threats never pan out at the polls.

I am 100% behind using this opportunity to expand our national discussion on race, but I fully expect that vote-wise, we're largely dealing with a paper tiger.  However, I hope that Obama doesn't think that he can avoid being Teacher in Chief on race issues.  Due to the uniqueness of his position, he has thrust himself into that roll.  But I also expect Hillary to become his number one support on this.  Being white, no one can accuse her of being self-serving by pressing non-POC to open their minds to a biracial man.  And, obviously, many of the people Obama needs to open their minds to him already respect Hillary and are prone to listening to her.  She can do as much for race relations in this country as Obama can, IMO.  

Lurleen on Twitter


I agree here
Hillary (and other white pols, quite frankly) needs to try to pry open these conversations about race as well - leading by example. I think much of the discomfort lies in the fact that many whites do not want to stick their necks out and pour forth their insecurities about the issue -- and there certainly has not been a safe space to do so that is not politicized/tied to the election.

Obama, with his speech a few months ago, opened the door to say it is important to come through the door with him on this issue, and Hillary can help significantly by walking through and turning around and offering her hand to her supporters to usher them in to begin these conversations.

It would be a gracious and healing gesture that could repair a lot of damage to the national wound on race that was exposed by tactics used during the campaign.

Goodness knows McCain's surrogates will be happy to race-bait and let emotions get the best of people.


[ Parent ]
Fear of black anger
The second caller/commenter from Mike's show seems to have anxieties not so much about Obama, but about the African-American community more generally.

Many people lack a context for understanding anger as anything other than a destructive and anarchic force, I think.   And it often is that.  But the reality is complex.  Anger has been an ingredient in many successful political movements--on the left as well as on the right.  At a personal level it can be healthy, disciplined, and life-affirming.

A difficult subject to discuss.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


the irrationality
As if "the black community" is some monolithic angry mob, and if an individual doesn't fit the scary stereotype, they are either an exception, or in this case Obama's seen as a Trojan Horse. It's so strange.

If only blacks were a cohesive group, regionally, culturally, ethnically, even politically. Honestly, I would love to know what white people think represents "the black community" and particularly its perceived "leadership."


[ Parent ]
The crazy part...
...is that most of these people have never even heard Nina Simone's version of Pirate Jenny. That is legitimately scary ... and I'm black.

[ Parent ]
Neither have I ....
searching library for disc containing it....

[ Parent ]
Listen...
...during the daylight, and have some friends with you.

[ Parent ]
Trojan horses
Yes, I think back to when Condi Rice offered some rather mild thoughts on race in America after Obama's Rev. Wright speech.  It was perceived in some quarters as a betrayal, based on that kind of fear--an "exception" turned out to be a Trojan horse.

I think we as a society are becoming able to perceive and to recognize more diversity and individuality among us, but talking about race often seems to trigger a quick reversion to the tribal mentality.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto


[ Parent ]
'Gut'?
"This is what my gut is telling me" ...?

Gee, where've we heard that before? Some mindless ninny making crucial decisions based on "gut" feelings?

Before anyone is permitted to vote, perhaps there should be an IQ test given. No, wait, better still -- before anyone is allowed to breed.

I realize how elitist that sounds, but dammit, I'm sick of having this nation run into the ground by people who can't or won't be bothered to think.

Unfortunately we can't even breathe a collective sigh of relief yet; Hillary Clinton has still not officially conceded, she's obviously jockeying for a veep position (and gods, no no no, please no), she doesn't see how her grasping, selfish sense of entitlement reads precisely the same as Bush's did in 2000, and while my initial response to Obama securing the delegates was it's about goddamn time we got over our legacy of prejudice, he's still got a hell of a hard climb ahead of him without Clinton continuing to hold him back.

She needs to rein in her hysterical fringe, and she needs to officially turn the race over to Obama so we can all focus on overturning the worst administration in the history of the United States. Gut be damned; this is too important to be left up to indigestion.

Blogwhoring @ http://indigestible.nightwares.com/


IQ test wouldn't work - "lazy brain" test needed
Plenty of smart people don't use their brains to get informed or reason out why they pick a candidate.

[ Parent ]
It would certainly help
if the pundits, news media, and campaign spin would ACTUALLY talk issues instead of cult of personality and/or race.

I realize for myself (to remind everyone: a Hillary supporter who would rather rip out my eyes than vote for McSame) I need to have my talking points in order.  I have them for GLBT issues, (ck out the HRC/Human Rights Campaign talking points on McCain) but I need to get my talking points about the economy, privacy, immigration, war and foreign policy down more.  How could anyone want to vote for him.  

This "don't trust" Obama thing is bull..bring it back to the issues not the man/candidate.  Remember how people used to say they voted for Bush because they could sit around and have a beer with him...OMG, if you get this kind of answer, I suggest you move on to the next person with your personal campaigns for hope and change in the Whitehouse.


Oh yeah, and the Supreme Court nominations too.


[ Parent ]
Who I have a beer with is the most important issue.
  Good heavens the economy be an issue, as long as I have $10.00 to get me my 12 pack of beer, the economy is not an issue.  And lets not forget about NASCAR racing on the weekends, that is almost as important as my beer.  {snark}

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

[ Parent ]
anybody heard of TROLLS?
Gimme a break.  The majority of these people are not Democrats and never were "Hillary supporters"--they are paid or volunteer trolls doing their best to sow discontent and strife.  What else are they going to do, campaign for McCain?  ahahahahaha.  This is much more fun.  


Commenting on the Michelangelo Signorile Caller
I am saddened today, because I live in a nation that continues to embrace racism. Racism is not based on or off of logic; if it were, then there would be no racism. Racism is when logic has been completely omitted and personal satisfaction has proven victorious. We've seen drastic changes amongst the African-American communities; I'm speaking of the noticeably positive changes (i.e. the first African-American Democratic Presidential Nominee). I am to assume when someone uses the phrase "gut feeling", he or she is speaking of, what would be some type of unconscious sign or signal persuading the thought process. A "gut feeling" comes from the brain stimulating or providing extra fluid to the area that deals with fear and/or stress, the stomach, hence "GUT feeling". If you do not know this man (Barrack), what reason's do or would you have to fear him? None, so your conscious is working in over drive because your logic tells you there are no reasons to have ill feelings towards him other than the obvious. So your brain NATURALLY sends the signal "gut feeling" telling you something isn't right, all the long it's your thought process better known as a mentality. We (This Nation) will never bridge disparity if one will not openly admit that there is a brain disease called "racism". An illness can only be treated and cured once the root of the infection has been detected and deemed infectious.
Thank you,
Prepostpotician

[ Parent ]
The Bradley Effect...
Tom Bradley was the very successful, moderate, African American Democratic mayor of Los Angeles winning five consecutive terms from 1973 until 1993. Bradley twice ran for Governor of California enjoying substantial leads in the polls but was defeated both times by rightwing anti-union Republican George Deukmejian.

Bradley's losses were unexpected. What the polls didn't show was the depth of racism in the Democratic Party. The Democratic party is a cesspool of racism, misogyny and anti-GLBT bigotry, of which racism is far and away the most intractable. The consequences of this concealed racism are termed the "Bradley Effect".

In any election the Bradley Effect would be hard to overcome and McCain will certainly exploit it but much of his work has been done for him by the open racism of Dixiecrats like Bill and Hillary Clinton. Who will this years Will Horton be? Anyone who says that the Dixiecrats all left with Strom Thurmond or that they all come from the South is either delusional or lying through their teeth.  

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  


There was no Bradley Effect
That is a lie that has been perpetrated and trotted out for use against any successful Black politician. 800,000 thousand votes turned up in box that had been dumped in the Pacific years later that would have put him over the the top.  

[ Parent ]
There was no Bradley Effect
That is a lie that has been perpetrated and trotted out for use against any successful Black politician. 800,000 thousand votes turned up in box that had been dumped in the Pacific years later that would have put him over the the top.  

[ Parent ]
I know! Cowabunga, dudes and dudesses,
I saw it dropped from a mother ship with my own eyes and both times the boxes had "Democratic Victory Margin" written on them. Dude, or Dudess, I swear! I saw it happen both times he ran in '82 and '86 and thought it odd at the time. Once was just SW of the Channel Islands and once in Catalina waters. But only now, with your inside information, do I fully begin to comprehend what I saw. I wasn't hallucinating! Thank you Dude (or Dudess). Awesome!

The looter rich much prefer working with Democrats like Obama and the Clintons - they're greedier, they fool more people and they're able to get away with a lot more than Republicans.  

[ Parent ]
The US Gov't has not Apologized for Slavery nor Given Promised Reparations
There is still so much healing that needs to be done but it's been avoided. It's the elephant in the room that you cannot ignore. White people don't want to acknowledge their privilege and don't want the 'guilt' of being labeled racists. This isn't about being part of the KKK anymore. It's about anti-racist activism. Racism doesn't just hurt POC, it's the blot on the nation. It is literally killing us. Obama would love to never have to discuss race. You know Hillary and Bill have to take responsibility for the seeds of division they sowed by turning the primary into Black man vs. White woman aka "sexism is more prevalent than racism". Clearly Black women were not counted into this equation!!!! There are a lot of white people who will let their racism decide their vote. So be it. The Clintons also need to accept how they have alienated Black people and especially Black women. Right now we're looking at white women since apparently their the only women Clinton seemed to care about or include in her feminist meme with a LOT of suspicion. If Clinton concedes and apologizes some of that will dissipate, but since she has been calling Obama 'an inadequate Black man' like that racist supporter of hers the entire primary who is seriously going to believe her 'support of Obama's candidacy' NOW? She has no shot in hell of winning the GE by the way if she managed to permanently damage Obama as she's been trying since January. Why? Well 6 out of 10 'Black' voters are WOMEN. Using Bob Johnson as a surrogate to strong arm CBC members, allude to Obama being a drug dealer and ignoring the fact he exploited Black women shows how out of touch she is. Over at blogs like kos so many people think it's going to be a relatively 'easy' win. They have no clue.....but Obama has prepared very well for all of this. Hello, he defeated the Clinton machine to win the nomination! It's called the 50-state Strategy.

Great comments "Heartsandflowers"….

I also believe and agree that the Clinton campaign exploited the black woman during the primaries. My bigger concern is the black women who don't know they've been exploited, maybe due to ignorance or even worst, denial. At any and all levels, I believe this is the monster that should be tamed moving forward, properly informing (despise the word educate) those who has gone thus far uninformed. I believe that some woman (Black) have been classically conditioned to the point of; its women versus men, the black woman need separation to display strength and other forms of robotic cancer that corrupt the mind. My thoughts are not fueled by anger, racism or hatred, only truth, truth of what I've come to know from experiencing with my own eyes. As for Bob Johnson, we knew we were in trouble once he sold BET, my opinion of course but all the same very true.  I long to see how the elections pan out from this point, history shows and prove that there is only so much progress a black man can make before he reaches public demoralization, the first go at that is. Then it will take another pivotal turning point when someone comes and exceeds that previous threshold.  I say all of that to ask... Will history continue to prove itself, or has this Nation and its people evolved to the point where one (Obama) will be judged on his perceived character and nothing more?
Thank you,
Prepostpotician

[ Parent ]
Thanks yes a real examination is vital
As Latina, Asian, First Nations/Native Americans..let's go down the list have been ignored. Except Clinton tried to pull a Black vs. Brown conflict, again discounting the shared ancestry and history between us.

Look Obama believes he will win that is why he ran. He has planned, organized and strategized. His campaign in clearly the superior to Clinton and McCain. And let's not forget he has MONEY! Know he has just established guidelines that the DNC will no longer accept money from PACs and LOBBYISTS.

This is what a LEADER does!


[ Parent ]
SUPPORT OBAMA
Mccain is HORRIBLE for the GLBT community! Hillary and Obama have the same stances they are just different in personality. STOP MCCAIN! VOTE OBAMA!!

Oh yeah, that's another reason
to at least vote a third party if you were a Clinton supporter -- we can now add fearmongering to whiteliberalguiltmongering in the bag of tricks.


[ Parent ]
There ya go!
Obama's and Clinton's positions are far closer than Obama vs. McCain -- it doesn't make any sense to vote for McCain. For some, not all - there really is a deep-seated fear out there about being led by a black man, so much so that they'd vote for McCain.

Hey, that's a perfect way to get disgruntled Clinton supporters on board -- try to white liberal guilt them into it by implying that no one voting against Obama could possibly have any motive but racism.  And don't let that inconvenient fact that it's up to a political candidate to interest voters in him/her -- not the other way around -- stop you.


Peacemaking
I don't know the netiquette (or even how to spell netiquette!) of cross-postng from another blog, so be patient with me and/or educate me, please!

I have a dear friend who posts on the Left in Alabama blog (which was also credentialed for the convention - yay!).  She has a wonderful post about uniting the party and moving forward.  Please consider it, and share it if it speaks to you.

http://leftinalabama.com/showD...

Thanks.


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