Q Of The Day: When Is It Okay For Gay Owned Businesses To Discriminate Against Transgender People?

Answer to the question

"So is it ever okay for a gay or lesbian owned and operated business to fail to accommodate potential transgender patrons "

No.

As simple as that.  It is not ok to discriminate against transgendered people, it is significantly less than ok when GLB people do so, since, in doing so, they create an excuse for hets to do so as well.

Time to boycott Tangowire until they go as financially bankrupt as they already are ethically.  

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by: FriendOfJonathan @ Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 23:47:21 PM CDT

Never

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by: juicyjuice @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 00:11:00 AM CDT

amen

I love the term asshats. Besides that, I'm glad that you and others have contacted them. I've never been to Seattle but plan on getting out for Gender Odyssey one of these years. I'll stop by TangoWire's office and let em have a little piece of my mind.

-Nick (subject of the original article)

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by: nmt0215 @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 07:14:09 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

how about never?

(I originally heard about this over on a livejournal community - I'll just repost my comment from there)

wow...everything about that is so fucked up. makes me embarrassed to be a Seattlite.

I found their contact info here:
TangoWire Corporation
601 Union St
Seattle WA
United States 98101
206-448-6901
registrar@tangowire.com
OR go here for a contact form: http://tangowire.com/Members/C...

I have contacted them and let them know that I will never use their services. blech. It might be cool to have some sort of action, since they're right in my back yard. Any other Seattle folks wanna organize something?

on a related note, www.butchfemmematchmaker.com has the ability to choose "trans", for those who are into the butch/femme or masculine/feminine dynamic.  so I call total bullshit on the lack of technology.

they just don't WANT to include transfolk (and those who dig transfolk) and instead of being honest about it, they're pussyfooting around.

asshats.

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by: demolitionwoman @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 00:24:22 AM CDT

601 Union Street...

...is Two Union Square, the building that supposedly has the highest concentration of attorneys of any building in Seattle. Surely at least one of them is T-friendly enough to write a polite but firm letter to Tangowire?

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by: AbstractRandom @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 20:19:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sad

Brian Brown sounds almost exactly like the eHarmony spokesman.  And Washington State prohibits discrimination on the basis of gender identity, right?  (The company is headquartered in Seattle.)  So "When is it okay to discriminate against transgender people?" is a question best answered by an attorney, perhaps.

Underlying the details of this case is an important story about how formerly lesbian women who transition FTM sometimes face a struggle to stay connected to the community and the culture they feel at home in and have been part of for, in many cases, years.  Reading between the lines of the article a bit, it sounds like TangoWire's belief is that Nick is not bisexual but heterosexual, i.e. seeking to date only women.

I'm not saying they have a valid reason to ban him, just thinking out loud here....  It must be tough being an FTM person faced with venturing into the world of mainstream straight dating.  Wanting to meet bi women (or lesbians who might experiment with bi-ness with an FTM) makes sense.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

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by: Sportin' Life @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:05:02 AM CDT

Yeah, you are right

Our anti-discrimination law does prohibit discrimination against trans folk. So they are breaking state law.

Wonder if anybody has told this guy that he can report it to the Washington State Human Rights Commission? It does not matter that the victim lives in Boston, the company that did it is here, and the discrimination took place at their place of business.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:05:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

complaint

hey Susan, I actually did file a complaint with the Wash State Human Rights commission. The issue is that as an Internet company, those laws don't apply. I got a letter back from the Commission saying they're sorry but can't help because of this, citing a case that ruled that public service businesses need to be brick and mortar for the state to be able to do anything. I was actually pleasantly surprised to even get a response.
I may now pursue with Massachusetts....

-Nick

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by: nmt0215 @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 07:18:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

When Is It Okay For Gay Owned Businesses To Discriminate Against Transgender People?

Never.

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by: teac @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:12:53 AM CDT

Discrimination based on a misleading assumption

Gender identity and sexual orientation are two totally different things. One is not equivalent to the other. T does not replace L, G, or B. If one is T, that's in addition to being L, G, or B.

This is an example of why I don't "identify as transgender"-- I identify as a woman. For me, transsexualism is not an identity. It's just a lousy deal I got in life, an affliction, and I'm making the best of it by putting it behind me and getting on with my life as a woman. This story illustrates something I've been afraid of-- transphobes like Tangowire ghettoizing us in a separate category of neither men nor women. Most of the transsexual people I know don't want to walk around with a yellow star labeled "transgender" always setting us apart. We just want to assimilate as men and women like anyone else, whether straight, gay, lesbian, or bi. This kind of discrimination reminds me of the murderers of Brandon Teena calling him "it"-- denying his humanity along with his manhood.

If a hetero transsexual-owned business had a policy of no gays need apply, imagine the protests.  

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

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by: Hypatia @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:55:54 AM CDT

Q Of The Day: When Is It Okay For Gay Owned Businesses To Discriminate Against Transgender People?

When it's a music festival, of course.

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by: CassCarter @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:13:02 AM CDT

Shhh...that's not spoken of in polite company.

Remember what FDR said, "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." Have you written/called a congress-critter today? 8.25, 6.21

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by: Jacques @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:51:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Who do they think they're kidding?

"It's that T side [in LGBT] that we have not been able to fully accommodate"

"That identity is not an identity we have an ability to support,"

(emphasis added)

It's not like being trans-inclusive would require a great deal of work or a special skill set which could only be provided by hard-to-find experts.  Hell, from the sound of the story it was already possible for trans people to post within the structure of the site -- if the site operators hadn't taken action to remove trans clients.

So the "we just aren't able to be trans-inclusive" line is dishonest as well as unethical.

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by: M @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:09:58 AM CDT

I don't get it

My experience with those who identify as bisexual is that their attraction to another person has little to do with gender (of course I guess the interest in another is dependent on where they fit in the kinsey scale and what type of relationship they're looking for at the time).  As such, this site wouldn't have to do anything to accommodate those who are transgender/transexual or support non-trans members with an interest in someone who happens to be T.  The only thing that would need to be done is for the T person to clearly delineate that status on their profile and, prior to meeting a potential suitor, be open and honest about their status so there are no major surprises.

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by: ol cranky @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:43:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I was thinking the same thing

 

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:13:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Me, too

Like Susan, I was thinking the very same thing. The vapid excuse makes no sense. Just offer the person the option of placing "T" in the profile and - look! - problem solved. Then others can select themselves in or out of whether they want to contact the person. No brainer!

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by: bored beyond belief @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:10:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No kidding. It's kind of implied in the 'bisexual' part that

we don't tend to be that fussy about people's, well, accessories. Who wrote their business plan?    

Remember what FDR said, "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." Have you written/called a congress-critter today? 8.25, 6.21

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by: Jacques @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:11:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Agree 100%

The logic behind the "no ability to support" paragraph is completely hosed.  Essentially, the spokesman is telling us "we have no ability to support it, as proven by the fact that we don't support it at the moment".  Yeah... THAT makes sense.  Would be about like saying that the fact I'm sitting in a chair at the moment proves I'm unable to walk.

Also, as a bisexual myself, I'm especially pissed off that the operators of a "bisexual" website fail to understand how demeaning and unfair it is to push a whole group of people out of the LGBT circle.  Given that some of us bisexuals have felt the effects of erasure within the realm of broader LGBT politics (e.g. having our identities called into question with the notion that we're just keeping one foot in straightness for the sake of personal expediency), it's all the more incumbent upon us to recognize the sheer wrongness of doing that to anyone else.

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by: CubPaws2008 @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 16:08:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Now that you mentioned it

I have had several bi friends tell me that they actually prefer to date other bi people or trans people, because only other people who are bi or trans (or both) get what it feels like to not feel like a fully welcome member of a larger LGBT community. I have had this said to me by more than one person, with comments about personal experience to explain their position.

I have to say from my own experience that their position makes sense to me. The one time that I had a relationship with someone who is openly trans (MtF), my straight friends and relatives just accepted us as lesbian couple without question. It was my gay male friends who said stupid things like "So does that mean you are bi?" Nothing wrong with being bi, mind you, but I was pretty annoyed that these people (one of whom has been my best friend for 30 plus years) were acting as if they had some right to question my partner's womanhood.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 17:25:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Caught with bigoted pants down

An easy "no" on that question of being able to discriminate.

TangoWire's site does not accommodate transgender people.

"It's that T side [in LGBT] that we have not been able to fully accommodate within our program. That is shown [by the fact] that in our registration, transgender is not one of the options we provide, and we don't provide that as such. ... That identity is not an identity we have an ability to support," said Brown.

Ass. Come on, Brown, that "excuse" is so condescending, it's a wonder that even the reporter didn't laugh out loud. As if the programming of the venture somehow forced the company into T discrimination.

Let's try again:

TangoWire's site does not accommodate black people.

"It's that black side that we have not been able to fully accommodate within our program. That is shown [by the fact] that in our registration, black is not one of the options we provide, and we don't provide that as such. ... That identity is not an identity we have an ability to support," said Brown.

After all, race is a social construct, thus could be seen as an identity. Or maybe...

TangoWire's site does not accommodate religious people.

"It's that religious side that we have not been able to fully accommodate within our program. That is shown [by the fact] that in our registration, religious affiliation is not one of the options we provide, and we don't provide that as such. ... That identity is not an identity we have an ability to support," said Brown.

And on that "Why Choose Us" web page, if it's not a problem for the company to have such a discriminatory policy or "limitation", why isn't that right there in the description/FAQs? Certainly everyone, including those states that have T accommodations laws, should be able to investigae the "technical" deficiencies of its service.

What other "glitches" exist in its system; does the management plan to address it, or is this some kind of permanent accommodation problem in the heads of the proprietors that requires legal or medical attention? Hmmm?

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:36:05 AM CDT

Eh

   TangoWire's site does not accommodate religious people.

Heh. That's tempting.

But as far as "not supporting the T", that's ridiculous. There's nothing special about the programming - no weird classes that can't be created, no unusual loops. And yeah, it's just like what eHarmony is trying to pull, and it's wrong either way.

Cause any fool knows, a dog needs a home; a shelter from pigs on the wing

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by: QueerInSoCal @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:30:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Huh?

Did Teich need to use Tangowire's virtual bathroom?

No, it's never okay, and their reasoning's ridiculous. Might as well just say they fired all their ciders right after the site's launch, and no one in customer service knows how to add an extra radio button or checkbox.

Ridiculous. Hope they lose membership.

Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

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by: TJ McFisty @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:41:10 AM CDT

Dammit

That's "coders" not "ciders". Stupid, auto-correcting iPhone.

Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

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by: TJ McFisty @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:45:19 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

So is it ever okay for a gay or lesbian owned and operated business to fail to accommodate potential transgender patrons

No, it's not.
and this excuse is ridiculous.

I think it's worse when a gay business does this because it suggests that gays are selfish people who don't really care about equality at all.  It's worse because these folks should KNOW BETTER. It confirms the fears I've heard from many transfolks, that once gays have what they want, they will leave the trans community to twist in the wind.  

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by: PunkZanyJ @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:53:22 AM CDT

Bisexual Erasure

An FAQ section of the BisexualDatingNow.com site describes TangoWire as a gay-owned and operated company: "TangoWire was founded by, is directed by, and is run by gay personnel. We don't discriminate against our straight co-workers - they're cool people, too, and just as committed to your great experience on our site."

A bisexual dating service run by gays who don't discriminate against straight coworkers... What about their bisexual coworkers? They don't even exist, I guess.

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by: lisbeth @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:12:41 AM CDT

LMAO

"Daryl Herrschaft, director of Human Rights Campaign's (HRC) Workforce Equality Project, said that HRC works to educate gay-owned businesses about the transgender community, but he could not recall an instance of a gay-owned business being so blatant in discriminating against transgender people."

Stop it, Daryl.  You're killin' me.

Why didn't you say what your organization really means: Discriminate like we do - non-blatantly.  Then, while ignoring the minor amount of criticism we get (after all, the only people who seem to notice our abysmal record of trans hiring are trannies themselves - and who listens to them?) push for laws that make sure that we can never be taken to court for refusing to treat 'dem nasy trannies equally.

Kat

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:20:22 AM CDT

nothing new

Heck, this is nothing new.  What is new is the fact it's an FtM.

For years MtF "transgender" folks have been pushed aside, denied, discriminated against by both Lesbians and Gay Guys.

As I've said for quite a few years, "There is no future being the T in LGBT.".

Actually, relegating ALL of the varied, different, trans folks under the "transgender umbrella" is just a way of herding all "those" folks into one pen  --  this eliminates the need for thinking on the part of many LG folks  --  all of the various trans types are put aside, and easily dismissed, and kept apart.  

In the past, it was all about MtF's  --  now that the number of FtM's has increased, even they are facing the same discrimination,  

One fact for many MtF's is the total loss of friends, family, and economic status.  Those who lived in "main stream society" are suddenly shoved aside.  Many regain at least parts of their family.  Some regain, or retain, the economic status they gained while living as men.

Of course, many "transgenders" were straight men in their former lives.  Many have internalized homophobia, many do not realize they actually were the recipients of male privilege.

All that usually changes with time - and experience.  One of the "ah-ha", "click" moments is when it becomes clear that much "trans-phobia" is actually misogyny.  That does not mean there is no transphobia  --  but it is often at the hands of LG folks.  

I, for one, do not identify as "trans"  --  I'm simply a woman.  Trans was something I had treated, and after SRS (plus some years of "being", and "becoming"), am just another old lady - albeit with some very varied life experiences.

Quite a few FtM's, those nurtured by the lesbian community, attempt to keep their ties with same.  Some succeed in living an almost "double life", where they retain "lesbian creds", while being seen as unabashed guys elsewhere.  For these folks, the concept of transgender works very well.  It's also useful for "non-ops", TV's, etc.  

Being set aside, forever consigned to being a "third" by folks who seemed to be natural allies, is a bitter pill for the MtF's and FtM's who want to move on and be seen, accepted as the sex they always thought they were.  

For many, cutting ties with the greater LGB community is the only way to move forward, to blossom, to grow into their new selfs.  

Hiding in the ghetto may work for some, but in the long run, it stunts your growth (my opinion).

I am not surprised by the attitude of that dating service.  It's nothing new.

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by: tsokol1 @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:36:20 AM CDT

I agree with at least half of what you say, but...

I, for one, do not identify as "trans"  --  I'm simply a woman.  Trans was something I had treated, and after SRS (plus some years of "being", and "becoming"), am just another old lady

My exact same feelings (posted above). But...

Quite a few FtM's, those nurtured by the lesbian community, attempt to keep their ties with same.

I don't feel it's my place to criticize FTM gentlemen for their decisions about which community to keep associating with after transition. I don't have the experience of being FTM.

I'm the moderator of a lesbian Yahoo group, and I've established membership rules that only women are allowed in. But I make an exception for FTM men, because in practice many have maintained their membership in their former lesbian communities. That's just the way these things work, even if I don't see the logic to it, that's what is generally accepted in the lesbian world, so I take prevailing standards as my guide. Actually, it was one of my FTM friends who gave me my first introductions to the lesbian world he'd come from, and I'm grateful to him for that.

For these folks, the concept of transgender works very well.  It's also useful for "non-ops", TV's, etc.

Takes all kinds. I welcome and support non-transsexual transgender people finding for themselves the best way to fit into the world. I understand that the binary doesn't fit them. It doesn't take away from my womanhood or the fact that I am at home in the female half of the binary.

Although... I've noticed that the word "transsexual" has been phased out in favor of "transgender" which erases the different status of us transsexuals. If an ambiguous, bigendered, genderqueer, or other non-transsexual identity became the norm for everyone under the transgender umbrella, that would impact transsexual people's lives and I would have a problem with that. I'm a live-and-let-live kind of gal. But for that to work, I need others to let me live my own life as a woman within the female half of the binary where I feel at home.

Being set aside, forever consigned to being a "third" by folks who seemed to be natural allies, is a bitter pill for the MtF's and FtM's who want to move on and be seen, accepted as the sex they always thought they were.  

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and if your post consisted of this sentence alone, I'd rate it "excellent."

For many, cutting ties with the greater LGB community is the only way to move forward, to blossom, to grow into their new selfs.  

Maybe, but that doesn't describe me. As a woman who loves women, I feel I belong in the gay rights movement. I feel at home in the LGBT world. I am gay since I love women. I believe passionately in GLBT solidarity because for me personally the LB and the T are inseparable.

I've heard MTF women saying they'd been hetero as males and had never been part of the gay scene, so they can't relate to it now. When I first heard that, it sounded so strange to my ears. It does not describe me-- I need to be in the embrace of a society where it's accepted positively for women to love women. I have found a tremendous amount of friction against that in the hetero-dominated world, which I experience as harsh and hostile toward my same-sex affections. Especially as a transsexual woman, because we are held to even higher standards of heteronormativity, and many would deny us the chance to be lesbian. I'm finding it hard to deal with heteronormativity as a lesbian, so naturally I find solace and support in the LGBT (specifically lesbian) world.

In other words, it has been the LGBT community that provided me the support needed to move forward, blossom, and grow into my new self, to use your words. I will always feel grateful for that.

Hiding in the ghetto may work for some, but in the long run, it stunts your growth (my opinion).

This is where we part company. I feel I belong as a member of the LGBT community-- I hold them in high esteem and am proud to be considered one of them. I was deeply touched by the United ENDA movement last year where our gay allies joined together en masse to repudiate HRC's betrayal of us. I would rate this statement of yours "unproductive," as someone already has rated the whole post. I don't know how to rate your post as a whole, between the parts I totally agree with and the parts that offended me.

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

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by: Hypatia @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 20:17:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Really?

"Although... I've noticed that the word "transsexual" has been phased out in favor of "transgender" which erases the different status of us transsexuals."

Only by the full time transvestites.

I'm a woman who was born with the transsexual Syndrome aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome.  An intersex condition for which I was treated with a sex change operation.  I'm not now nor was I ever transgender.  Indeed I have a hard time relating to all the psychobabble regarding gender.

I does seem to me though that many gay men and lesbian women have their own gender issues and that their issues are probably the source of animosity toward people with TS or a history of TS and transgender people.

This issues based animosity is similar to that shown by all the religious based homosexuals in denial attacks on L/G people.

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by: SuzyQ @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 21:25:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re: Really?

Only by the full time transvestites.

The only people who still use the word "transsexual" are the transsexuals themselves. Nowadays the general public and the media just call us "transgender" and I doubt many cis people are even aware there's a difference. I attribute this to Americans' squeamishness about the word "sex."  

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

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by: Hypatia @ Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 04:36:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Re:

I attribute this to Americans' squeamishness about the word "sex."  

I attribute the use of transgender to a bunch of full time transvestite who want the public to think they are the same thing as post SRS people when in fact they are jusst transvestites.  

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by: SuzyQ @ Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:16:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well then

O.K., so we part company.  

I've not "rated" your posts  --  after all, they are your opinion, your experience  --  therefore, it seems a bit presumptuous of me to make judgments, and be critical of your life, your experience.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear  --  I no longer consider myself wedded to the LGB community  --  this even though my partner is a woman  --  but, I support organizations like GLAAD, NGLTF, even HRC (in the past).  I support the rights of Transgenders - even though I do not consider myself one, and refuse to be defined into that "umbrella" by people who know nothing about my life.  

I think most of your complaints are based on both a misunderstanding of my positions, and some assumptions on your part.

In any case, thank you for your comments.  

I do think you totally misunderstood what I mean by "the ghetto".  You can be a member of the LGBT Community and not live, breathe, hide, in the Ghetto.  Support, sharing common experiences, bonds, is not "hiding".  refusing to venture out, Refusing to experience your entire life is hiding.

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by: tsokol1 @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 21:29:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OK, I understand

Thanks for explaining... sounds like we agree then. I've often used the word "ghettoize" to refer to the concept that relegates all trans people to a third gender, neither man nor woman. I might tend to overreact because I really don't want that.  

Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls

---

by: Hypatia @ Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 04:33:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

So, wait,

Because they're too lazy to add a "T" to the pulldown with "M" and "F" (which in itself would be a transphobic thing to include, but whatever) they don't want transpeople on their site?

This is such a textbook example of cissexual privilege.

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by: sabrinaqedesha @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:53:00 AM CDT

One word anser man:

Never.

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by: Firefly @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 13:28:32 PM CDT

Er, "answer". (doh!)

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by: Firefly @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 13:28:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So can they accomodate intersex people?

Probably not.

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Claim to fame: Posted first PHB diary to be demoted

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by: cindik @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 17:25:30 PM CDT

Excuse me while I try the grass on the other side of the fence...

   The general public has never discriminated against me, because they are taught about discrimination by their employers and by publicity and word of mouth, and they recognize me readily. I like being "out" in the normal run of the day establishments. They serve me as well as they ever have before I transitioned.

   Seems of recent, I get more discrimination from the transgender merry go round and the HRC gays than anywhere. Excuse me, while I try the grass on the other side of the fence. My safe area isn't the gay communities.

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

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by: PhyllisMs @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 01:13:47 AM CDT

When ever it will "out" them, and for fear of losing their job...

   to stand for equality and support us publically and to Human Resources.

 

   Higher prices were paid in the 1960's to protest a war, by incarcerations, sitins, and demonstrations. I don't think we will have a great enough effect without shoe leather and cardboard, as we are doing at HRC conventions and dinners. Keep up the good fight girls, I'm with you, when ever and where ever I can.

I'd rather be a lion for one day, than a sheep for my entire life.

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by: PhyllisMs @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 01:32:32 AM CDT