Marriage equality opponent Benkof suddenly closes shop

Clarification

Since you brought it up, I thought I'd clarify. I no longer feel comfortable being allied with most of the people who run the man-woman marriage movement in the United States (not counting Maggie Gallagher). I still feel, however, that Pam Spaulding is a nasty bitch.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:07:23 AM CDT

Bitter much?

Someone needs a massage.  

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by: Troy @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:19:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

oh man, Benkof

talk about nasty. I'll let you spew a while longer since I have a thick skin, but according to the TOS on the Blend, direct personal attacks of that nature in the coffeehouse can earn you an immediate opening of the trap door. Read much?

Perhaps you should try a less inflammatory approach and have your say in a more intelligent manner, particularly since your actions of late are quite hard to figure out.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:36:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

oh woman, Spaulding

Very interesting. You can call me "ex-gay" when it's demonstrably false, but I can't call you a "nasty bitch" when it's demonstrably true. Whatever.

Censor my comments. Ban me. I don't care. I stand by every word of them.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:41:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

tool

being a tool of the far right Dominionists who would be happy to recriminalize homosexuality is quite an achievement. Carry on. It's quite sad.

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by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:44:00 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can see why Pam would get confused.

After all, your definitions of your own sexuality are so incredibly vague. Reading this article you wrote, it sounds like you determine your sexuality based on how you respond to songs from musicals, but then you state that you've rejected/repressed your homosexual desires (which is the most accurate definition of ex-gay) in order to maintain the hope of "[marrying] a woman to whom I can bring pleasure and joy, and with whom I can have a nice-if-not-spectacular bedroom life and create a beautiful Jewish family." If I've gotten the musical bit incorrect, I apologize. Your writing was so convoluted that I couldn't actually synthesize your point at all and was forced to postulate as to your actual intentions.

Congratulations on your own self-professed pomosexuality, even if you either won't use that term or are unfamiliar with it. I'm sure that Pam would be more than happy to start referring to you using the more accurate sexual classification of "self-admitted repressed-homosexual and self-professed (in a roundabout way) pomosexual."

After your classy "bitch" comments, should we also add misogynist to the label? We just want to be as thorough and accurate as possible.

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by: Rick @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:24:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Pomosexuality"? Sounds like sex involving apples

Neologism can be fun.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.

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by: TechBear @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:47:33 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Haha

Sex with fruits.  Sounds pretty accurate to me.

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by: shaz4005 @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 12:36:31 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I first heard about pomosexuality at a church conference in 2001

(there was a workshop on pomosexuality)

Here's a little info for those who haven't come across it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

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Claim to fame: Posted first PHB diary to be demoted

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by: cindik @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 12:37:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not a misogynist

Rick-

I'm not a misogynist. I don't believe I've called anyone a bitch all year, except Pam Spaulding, who is, in fact, a nasty bitch. I absolutely do not think most women are bitches. But if it makes someone a misogynist if out of all the women in the world, he picks exactly one to call a bitch - and she is, indeed a bitch - doesn't the word "misogynist" lose all power?

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 13:22:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

How about you are just a jerk?

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by: juicyjuice @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 13:59:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes

That's exactly how a grown man should talk about someone he has a disagreement with.

That's exactly how someone who expects to be taken seriously as an adult should talk about someone who does not share his point of view.

And certainly being mislabeled as "ex-gay" is absolutely equivalent to calling someone a "nasty bitch".

Let's see:
nasty bitch = insult
ex-gay = commonly used description

yes, I see, they're exactly the same.

And I'm sure someone who's as busy as you are, what with all the columns you have to do for all those mainstream papers, i'm sure this is a valid and productive use of your time: going from blog to blog defending yourself and attacking people.  I'm sure that's exactly what George Will does with his spare time.  I'm pretty sure that's what Anne Coulter does.  Why just the other day I saw Richard Roper go onto Good As You and call people "stupid homos".

Yes, this is exactly how professionals behave.  

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by: PunkZanyJ @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 17:20:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I wonder

How New York University and Hebrew University feel about Mr. Benkof? He is not exactly making them look good right now, and they are mentioned on his wikipedia page (which  has apparently just been updated), so it is not as if he has made a great effort to distance himself. In fact, in his replies to me and others, he has made a point of repeatedly stating that he has 3.5 years of graduate education in Jewish Studies, which would seem to imply that at least to an extent the things that he has learned at these venerable institutions support his assertions, since he specifically refers to "graduate school" and not yeshiva.

I know that universities stand strong for freedom of speech (as should we all), but aren't the things that he is saying to/about Pam in a public forum a poor reflection on NYU, where he is currently attending as a graduate student? Don't they sort of frown on behavior from current students that may be construed to reflect poorly on the university? Some people might think that by not publicly distancing themselves from him, NYU is giving their tacit endorsement to his behavior. I mean, I would be starting to wonder how many donations and endowments this type of behavior from a grad student might cost the university. Not to mention future students. As a parent, I would certainly hesitate so shell out my hard earned dollars to a university that tolerates such behavior from a current student. Maybe NYU is just too big a university to care.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:31:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

How

does that add anything? What are you really here for? What does leaving a nasty comment get you or accomplish? Are your emotions so raw and reactive that the above is all you can muster? If you have an actual argument to make, make it. Otherwise, ask yourself what you're doing (and throw in plenty of why's for your own sake)?  

Electricity's for light bulbs!

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by: n8nyc @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:50:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

My, my

Better to be a blitch on the right side of history promoting understanding and acceptance of gays, than a pious religionist promoting hatred of others simply because they are different than most.

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by: Bill Ware @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:54:05 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's Not Very Nice David

The least you can do if you are posting on a person's blog is to follow their rules, and the rules here at the Blend say we don't engage in personal attacks, no matter how we may feel about another poster or blogger.
You have to understand that we here at the Blend as well as many others around the blogosphere are wondering why you have this sudden change of heart, at least about the "man-woman marriage" fight. For the past several weeks you have been flooding the internet as well as writing in the mainstream media about your opposition to same sex marriage and talking about the "bad morals" of us LGBTers. You have trashed us every bit as well as anyone has trashed you online.
You have been trying to drown your opponents here and at other blogs with words and so called arguments to the point that many of us started thinking you were just s troll wanting to see your name in print, and that you couldn't care less about the truth of what you were saying. I'm not trying to be mean here; this is just what many of us concluded about you based on what you were posting everywhere.
Now you suddenly shut down your blog, make a post here and there about how you have found out something that has caused you to have a change of heart about ssm and Prop. 8 in particular, and you can no longer continue this fight. But you won't share what you have found out.
You must understand why many of us would question your sudden change of heart and wonder what the real reason or reasons would be for this change. You have been so adament about the evils of ssm and of the gay "lifestyle" in general. You can't truly blame us for questioning your sudden change, especially since you won't state your reasons for the change publicly.
I'm glad you had the courage to at least post your change of heart. If your change of heart involves something that someone or some group is doing illegaly, I hope that you will at least let someone in authority know.
I wish you well.

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by: Fiona @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:24:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

When you lay down with dogs...

You will excuse me for not feeling sympathy for nasty infestation of fleas you have aquired.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.

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by: TechBear @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:29:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wow!

Who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

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by: popsiclestand @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:30:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Classy.

The only downside to David's retirement from attacking and slandering law abiding gays is that he has more time to go around the internet defending himself on every blog he's mentioned.
Good to know that DB is not above ad hominem attacks and childish behavior. Comments like "Nasty bitch" reveal more about DB's character than anything he's ever said about himself.

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by: PunkZanyJ @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:40:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh hell no...

Hell no, he did not just call my gurl that. Just when I was making the blog rounds this morning and thinking nice thoughts about him, including that cute face of his, he gotta go and say that. Just when you go and say something reasoned, you go and ruin it.

Oh hell no. Best stay out of DC, David.

Curses! My million dollar ideas foiled again: "God Bless Your Brand!" http://www.christvertising.com/

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by: TJ McFisty @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:56:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Hello Kettle...

...this is Pot; you're black." (with all due respect to the writers of Friends who gave Phoebe that line).

It is sad that Mr. Benkof could not muster the professionalism to comment to Pam in an adult manner; it is also sad that he insists on coming to this blog to simultaneously defend his current decision and his past pronouncements on the alleged superiority of breeder love (don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are straight, not to mention my parents and sister).

Clearly we are dealing with a very conflicted individual here, one who, by his own admission, has now discovered at least ethical and moral, if not legal, objections to many of his former compatriots. Because Mr. Benkof continues to defend his position that male/female marriage is the only acceptable alternative, then it must be the actions, not the philosophy, of the anti-gay hate movement to which he now objects.

Whatever the actions are that drove Mr. Benkof to break off his ties to organized bigots, if those actions could be construed as violating campaign laws, or purposely defrauding the citizenry of California, then Mr. Benkof has an obligation as an American to reveal those to the proper authorities. Failure to do so makes him an accessory to those actions.  

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by: CPT_Doom @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 14:12:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actions

CPT_Doom-

I know of no campaign law violations or other lawbreaking by individuals on either side of this debate.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 14:55:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well then...

That obviously settles it.

Please now go ahead and confer your judgment about all of the allegations against the Bush Administration so we can just move on and happily take an oath of fealty to King McCain.

Kat

>^..^<

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by: KatRose @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:04:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

re: nasty bitch

So is it safe to assume since your original feelings about the man-woman marriage movement turned out to be incorrect, your sentiments about Pam Spaulding (ie: Internet Goddess) are false as well?

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by: wbenpc @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 14:51:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

False sentiments

I do not recall having or stating that I had the sentiments you attribute to me about Pam Spaulding (that she is an Internet goddess) but if I ever felt that way or said I felt that way, my sentiments were definitely false. I apologize to anyone I misled. Pam is not an Internet goddess - she is a nasty bitch.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 14:57:35 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Please help me to understand this

You are a gay male opposed to same sex marriage?

You help those wou cause immeasurable misery for Lesbian families raising children and you have the absolute temerity to call a Lesbian activist, someone fighting for the rights that you, wallowing in your self-loathing in Dickensian misery of the soul, would deny to others.  And yet she seeks to extend them to you.

Bitch is such an undignified response from someone attempting to curry favor by licking the filthy boots of the oppressor that are planted firmly upon his own windpipe.  It lacks a certain panache, a sense of style.

It's tacky, in short and misogynistic.  It would be akin to referring to you as an ass kissing, collaborationist rump ranger.  Mind you, I'm not referring to you this way.  It would certainly be beneath me to use such vulgar colloquialisms.  Notwithstanding, you're referring to Ms. Spaulding in that fashion approximates the type of phraseology and syntax, as well as the emotional response generated by the phrase in the second sentence of this paragraph.

I hope that someday you find some pride in self and that you further move beyond the misogyny that seems to lurk beneath the surface of the conflicted persona that you present the world.

Respectfully,
Maura Hennessey

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 15:44:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Helping Maura understand

Yes, I have spent the last two months (since the California ruling) explaining the ways I think same-sex marriage hurts children, hurts same-sex couples, hurts freedom, and hurts anyone who chooses to get married. I'm sorry that you missed the party, but I have decided to no longer do so. My op-eds are still on the Web, but I have decided to disable my Web site (should happen within 48 hours). I understand that you'd like me to specificy exactly what I mean, but I don't think that's a good idea - including for your side of the debate.

I never called Pam Spaulding a "bitch." I called her a "nasty bitch" - there's a difference. Anyone who knows me understands that I consider myself something of a wordsmith; I choose my words carefully. As such, I stand by my statement. If you google my name, you'll see I haven't called anyone such a name in at least a year or more, but I stand by my statement. Would you like me to detail the ways in which Pam Deserves that appellation? It seems a little rude to do it at her bandwidth.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 16:44:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Wordsmith"???

Yes, yes, I can see how "nasty bitch" must have taken you months to craft and get right. I don't think you're helping your cause.

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by: Margaret @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 16:58:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ROTFLMAO

I never called Pam Spaulding a "bitch." I called her a "nasty bitch" - there's a difference.

THIS is satire, right?? OMFG...

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 17:03:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't be sorry that I missed the party, David

I am the mother of three children. My eldest is an anthropologist/archeologist and a very determined feminist.

My middle daughter was an economics major at CMU and plans to attend the London School of Economics for graduate work.

My son is a serving soldier and highly decorated.
He alone would be a match for you were you to imply that his mother was unfit to raise children or somehow damaged marriage when he escorted me down the aisle to give me away to my beloved.

You may well consder yourself a wordsmith, but I fear that you flatter yourself needlessly.

I leave it to others to decide what sort of sobriquet fits you the best.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 18:28:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You sound like a nasty bitch too.

You insulted Pam, who is indeed an internet goddess.
Let me just put it this way.  I, a straight woman who just has your immature rants to go on, wouldn't fuck you, let alone marry you.  You are acting like a child.  Grow up, stop calling people names, stop googling yourself so that you can bask in your ten minutes of fame, and maybe (although I do think that you are fooling yourself about the ex-gay thing but maybe you are bi) you will find happiness.  I really do hope that you will get that but right now, I really do think that you have a lot of progress to make.
While you are thinking about what scathing response you are going to post to me (and you know you can't resist), watch this video.  It pretty much sums up how most people who aren't obsessed with teh gay feel about the issue.


My America includes LGBT families.

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by: Mena @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 21:06:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nasty Bitch?

I'd say that comment is far more appropriate when applied to the female Christianists who are pushing the anti-gay Proposition 8.  I can't help but wonder if this sudden turn of events is due to the fact that Benkof finally figured out that the Proposition 8 campaign lies, spreads hate and is using this cause as a way to line their pockets with money.  Just a thought.

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by: Michael-in-Norfolk @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:23:21 AM CDT

Maggie Gallagher

Isn't it interesting that Mr. Benkof is so positive about Ms. Gallagher? If I remember correctly, this is the woman who portrayed herself as an independent marriage "expert" advocating for the restriction of marriage to heterosexuals only, while at the same time receiving a couple of hundred thousand dollars in fees from the Bush administration, during their venal and divisive push for a federal anti-gay marriage amendment. How in the world does that kind of duplicity merit admiration? Or is that what he admires, her slick methods and covert agenda?

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by: pauliji @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:24:17 AM CDT

C'mon, publicize

I've always assumed that the whole anti-gay operation is a money laundering scheme to allow corporate donors to bribe GOP legislators through back channels--while evading campaign finance laws.

What did you find, David?

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

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by: Sportin' Life @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 09:44:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I am guessing that he didn't recieve much

  through the back channels.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

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by: HappyCat @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:40:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

OUCH!

Never drink soda and read...

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 17:23:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That comment

Hey Pam,
Why is it that he calls you a name like he did when all you have done is expose him for what he is?  

Now will David Benkof write to all those papers and say that he doesn't believe in what he had just published?  I, for one, am sending off a letter to the San Francisco Chronicle informing them of just that.  Hopefully they will look into it and expose Benkof for what he is.  

And I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for more explanations for this turn-around.  This is just another attention-grabbing stunt.  My guess is now he will write to all the gay papers and ask them to allow him to print what he now has to say (and of course, he'll get paid for it).  It would be interesting to hear all about the hypocrisy, but I wouldn't trust very much that comes from Mr. Benkof's writings.  

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by: kkaatz @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:36:57 AM CDT

San Francisco Chronicle

I stand by everything I said in the San Francisco Chronicle (not counting the editing error that misrepresented Daniel Blatt's research). I have not decided that the marriage-equality movement suddenly has cogent arguments. It does not. I have realized that I do not want to be associated with the people defending man-woman marriage (except Maggie Gallagher).

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:45:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why?

Why do you except Maggie Gallagher? She doesn't seem to me to be any better than any of the others involved on that side. She is known to twist the truth to suit her side just like the others do and has been alleged to have been taking a little (well, maybe a lot) of money under the table and hiding (or conveniently forgetting to mention) that fact to Congress while she was testifying in 2002 and 2003. I believe the amount came to the tens of thousands she was accepting at the time. That's a large amount to forget. So, why Maggie Gallagher?

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by: Fiona @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:01:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Alleged, heck...

...she just plain did it. Maybe Benkof is BFFs with her because, you know, birds of a feather and all that.

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by: halloweenjack @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 14:43:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I Would Just

love to know why he thinks she is any better than the rest of that bunch. I guess I'm not going to get an answer though.

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by: Fiona @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 14:59:07 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Speaking of cogent arguments

I have yet to hear one against marriage equality. They all come down to argument from authority, namely 'my holy book says man women only so there'. Not really much of an argument. Given your ad hominem  attack on Pam it would seem you don't have a particularly cogent argument either

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by: Natasha Yar-Routh @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 15:09:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I have at least ten

I have at least ten cogent arguments against "marriage equality" that have nothing to do with religion. Google my name for some of them, or GaysDefendMarriage.com may still be up (it should come down within 48 hours) and you can look there.

The funny thing about your message is that you appear to be challenging me to list my cogent arguments against same-sex marriage, even though I have uniliaterally surrendered and promised to stop making cogent arguments (or any arguments) in this debate. I imagine if lots more people like you make that challenge I might change my mind, but do you really want me to?

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 15:15:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Really?

The last time you were here, I seem to remember you coming up with ten or twenty "marriage equality violates my religious freedom by not making my religion's version of marriage special" variations...and a lot of obnoxious nothing.

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by: M @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 16:34:26 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

HIS version of the religion, NOT the Jewish faith

You have just hit on my Number One problem with Mr. Benkof:

Mr. Benkof is a hypocrite of the first order. Judaism specifically forbids Lashon Ha-Ra (evil speech or gossip) and harming others through speech. Yet that does not seem to stop him from doing both!

Excerpted from the Judaism 101 Website http://www.jewfaq.org/speech.htm:

The Power of Speech

*Judaism is intensely aware of the power of speech and of the harm that can be done through speech. The rabbis note that the universe itself was created through speech. Of the 43 sins enumerated in the Al Cheit confession recited on Yom Kippur, 11 are sins committed through speech. The Talmud tells that the tongue is an instrument so dangerous that it must be kept hidden from view, behind two protective walls (the mouth and teeth) to prevent its misuse.

*There are two mitzvot in the Torah that specifically address improper speech: Thou shalt not go up and down as a tale-bearer among thy people (Lev. 19:16), and ye shall not wrong one another (Lev. 25:17, which according to tradition refers to wronging a person with speech).

Mr. Benkof not only is a tale bearer of the first order, but he seems bent on wronging a whole lot of others, every time he posts against SSM.

Mr. Benkof CLAIMS to be basing his assertions on Jewish Law, yet he conveniently manages to leave out the "minor" detail that he is expressing a MINORITY opinion among Jews and that, in point of fact, the vast majority of US Jews disagree with him--yet he has the chutzpah to speak as if he has some right to speak for the rest of us, even though deliberately misrepresenting facts is a direct violation of Jewish Law. (You may want to remember that come Yom Kippur, David.)

Quite frankly, as a Jew, I have found Mr. Benkof's propensity for attempting to assert that HIS version of Judaism is the only one more than annoying, to say the least. Mr. Benkof calls himself something of a "wordsmith"; that being the case, then I would have to draw the conclusion that he is intentionally misrepresenting his OPINION that his version of Judaism is the only valid one.

Since Mr. Benkof  seems to think he is an expert on Judaism, then perhaps he could explain why The Union of Reform Judaism not only is advocating in favor of SSM, but is providing their congregations with tools to educate the community against homophobic prejudice and bigotry?? The only answer he can possibly give to that would either be to admit that he is internationally misrepresenting the "Jewish" position and, in fact, he is stating the claims of a minority of Jews as if the position were held by the majority or to assert the rather laughable claim that he somehow knows more about interpreting Jewish law than the combined knowledge of a few hundred Rabbis.

Perhaps Mr. Benkof might want to go read the information package currently being put together by The Union of Reform Judaism in FAVOR of equal marriage, before he next (falsely) claims to be speaking on behalf of the million or more US Jews who disagree with him.

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 22:44:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Lashon Hara

Lashon Hara does not apply to a rasha. Pam Spaulding is clearly a rasha.

Reform Judaism, like Messianic Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism, is not Judaism. I say that not only as an Orthodox Jew but also as a scholar in Jewish history with 3.5 years of graduate school in the subject. Just because a bunch of Jews say something doesn't make it Judaism.

In fact, I challenge you to show me 3 planks of the Democratic Party platform that the Union for Reform Judaism has rejected. Reform "Judaism" decides what's moral by what the Democratic Party thinks, not by what G-d thinks. If you think I'm lying by not paying attention to what they say, I don't really care.

FYI anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish, which means about 50% of people who call themselves Reform Jews are indeed Jews. But they're definitely not practicing Judaism.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 23:34:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you David, for you honesty

 If you are only counting Orthodox Jews as real Jews, that is fair enough, but if that is the case, then you should disclose that in the interest of journalistic integrity. As you said yourself, "Just because a bunch of Jews say something doesn't make it Judaism." That included Orthodox Jews.

As to whether or not Pam is a rasha, that is not the point, and you know it. I was referring to the greater harm you are doing--and make no mistake, if even one person in harmed by your words, you are violating Talmudic Law.  Surely you do not believe that every single solitary person who is harmed by your words is rasha? Because no matter how small or large your sphere of influence may be, the odds are that someone who does not deserve it has been hurt by them. If nothing else, your words may well be having the unintended consequence of feeding into negative stereotypes of Orthodox Jews, thereby potentially harming them.

Rabbi Hillel is quoted to have said, "What is hateful to you, do not do to another. That is the entire Torah. Everything else is commentary."


susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 00:50:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Tze Ulmad

Susan_F-

Feel free to E-mail me at DavidBenkof@aol.com, and I'd be able to point you to some good resources where you can learn about your own heritage, because you obviously have room for tremendous growth in that area. You left out the last, most important line of the story you ended with - Tze Ulemad, Go and Study - which we can all benefit from, but it appears you especially. A few notes:

1) You would love it if I said only Orthodox Jews are real Jews, but I specifically disavowed that opinion. You must be taking lessons on the truth from Pam Spaulding (NB). Anyone with a Jewish mother is a Jew, no matter how non-observant or non-believing.

2) If you believe I have violated Jewish law, and would like to develop a shayla (question) that together we can present to an Orthodox rabbi, I am willing to do so, with the stipulation that if he says I'm wrong, I apologize publicly, and if he says I'm right, you apologize publicly.

3) Hillel wasn't a rabbi. Please don't make things up - I have 3.5 years of graduate work in Jewish history, so I'm likely to catch you doing so. Also, there isn't a single legitimate rabbi who would interpret Hillel's saying to mean one should tolerate gay sex and homosexual "marriage." In fact, Hillel would undoubtedly agree that one should allow oneself to be killed rather than have gay sex. He also believed all Jews (even Reform ones) should keep kosher, keep Shabbat, and observe the family purity laws (google it). If someone (no one in particular) isn't observing those, she, er, he's hardly in a position to lecture someone who is.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 01:29:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Jewish Shmewish

You're still a schlemiel.

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by: Brian @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 03:31:22 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Don't need your resources, thank you.

David, your attempt at insulting both my intellect and level of study is laughable, at best. You may sincerely mean well, but your condescending attitude merely makes you look bad.

No, offense, but I don't know you from Adom, so I am not about to e-mail you so that you then have my personal e-mail address, nor am I willing to go to the trouble of setting up a separate account, just for you.

In all fairness, I did knowingly leave off the end of the quote. I was trying to be respectful, and did not wish to imply that you need to go and study. No matter how many years of study I have, you will say that you know better, or that only Orthodox teachings are valid. You know neither my background nor level of education and I am not going to debate with you whose teachers are better.
As to your offer to go ask a Rabbi I can answer in two words, David: Confirmation Bias.  You would only accept the word of someone you know in advance to agree with you.  

I do stand corrected, however; you only said that Reform, Reconstructionist and Messianic Judaism are not  Judaism. (You left out any reference at all to Conservative Judaism; perhaps that was not intentional.) You said in one paragraph "Reform Judaism, like Messianic Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism, is not Judaism. Then you later said that "anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish, which means about 50% of people who call themselves Reform Jews are indeed Jews." (This, by inference, means that you do not consider the other 50% to be Jews.) Sorry if I confused your separate statements into one. I am a bit under the weather. I am however, curious as to how you came to that 50%  number? (Yeah, I know, google it.) Citation, please?  So, how many Conservative and Orthodox conversions do you believe do not count? How many of their children are mamzers? I am sure their parents would love you to tell them.

You keep saying "google it" whenever you insist you are right, but have no proof, like when you are presenting a fallacious argument. As in,

Hillel wasn't a rabbi.

Maybe you need to google what the word "Rabbi" means, in the historical context and stop assuming ignorance on the part of other people.

As in:

there isn't a single legitimate rabbi who would interpret Hillel's saying to mean one should tolerate gay sex and homosexual "marriage."

Well there may be quite a few Conservative rabbis who may disagree with you (along with the Reform  and Reconstructionist  Rabbis who you assert are not practicing Judaism), but what I was referring to is that your words and deeds fighting against LGBT marriage would certainly be considered hateful by quite a few of those whose rights you would like to deny.

A better quote from Hillel, if we were looking for a motto for LGBT Jews might be: "If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?"

Or as in:

He also believed all Jews (even Reform ones) should keep kosher, keep Shabbat, and observe the family purity laws (google it).

Wow, really? Hillel made reference to "even Reform Jews"? The Reform movement as it is know today did not even exist until when?

Reform Judaism was born at the time of the French Revolution, a time when European Jews were recognized for the first time as citizens of the countries in which they lived. (Jewish Virtual Library, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrar...

And Hillel lived when?

[Hillel's] activity of forty years is perhaps historical; and since it began, according to a trustworthy tradition (Shab. 15a), one hundred years before the destruction of Jerusalem, it must have covered the period 30 B.C. -10 C.E. (Jewish Encyclopedia, available online at http://www.jewishencyclopedia....

But you would never intentionally try to mislead someone you believe to be less educated than you, right?

Or better yet:

In fact, Hillel would undoubtedly agree that one should allow oneself to be killed rather than have gay sex.

Really? Can you support that statement with more than you own opinion?

How about you google it, then post actual citations.
Since you have 3.5 years of graduate school, you must know how to use APA or MLA citations, right? Or do you just figure that people will not want to take the time to do their own research and post it, so that at least some of the less well versed people who read the thread will come away thinking "Well, if David says to google it, it must be true?"
Rabbi Hillel also said, in Pirkei Avot (2:5),

"Do not judge your fellow man until you reach his place."

You can claim to "catch" me making up whatever you want. You are not going to upset me with false accusations, nor are you going to fool anyone here. Since I am neither a liar nor a rasha (even by your standards, my friend), so if you were not already knowingly violating Talmudic Law, you are now.

Oh, and by the way, saying "Please do not make things up" on a public blog, to someone that you know full well is not "making things up", is, indeed making a false accusation, which  might possibly be considered a rather serious violation of a few mitzvot.

But, what do I know about it, right?

susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:05:21 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What does Susan_F know about it?

Very little, obviously.

The idea that I'm supposed to give MLA or APA citations (neither of which historians use, by the way) in a comment responding to a blog post shows you're simply not a serious person.

If anybody really wants responses to the many ignorant things Susan says in her latest post, I guess I can give one or two, but since she won't actually listen, but instead say idiotic things like I need to use MLA formiat - in a blog comment! - I just don't see the need.

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:02:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wow, you can't back up your assertions

So you call what I say "ignorant" and "idiotic"?

That is right up there with "nasty bitch" for brilliant debating technique. You spent how long at yeshiva, but still cannot manage a reasoned debate? Amazing.

Also truly amazing that your own ego is so big that all you are doing is to continue proving that I am correct.

I get where this is going, though. If you violate the TOS by continuing the personal attacks long enough, you are off the hook for actually backing up your statements.

How convenient for you.

susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 16:20:53 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

ROTFLMAO

susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 16:27:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

David, the arrogance in that offer to Susan is simply

...stunning. Even more stupefying is that fact that you are clearly oblivious to it.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:03:58 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Benkof is arrogance personified

The guy reeks of self-satisfaction at being one of the "chosen people".  The presumptuousness is absolutely disgusting.

"Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain" -- Iowa state motto

---

by: Sportin' Life @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 15:17:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

3.5 Years

Do you have a graduate degree? A Masters in Jewish History? A Doctorate? The fact that you have 3.5 years of graduate work could mean that you registered for the classes and showed up once or twice. You could have failed every class for all we know. 3.5 years of graduate work could mean absolutely nothing if you did not receive a degree based on the work you did during those years. If you spent 3.5 years at a graduate school and did not earn a degree, then something is wrong, and I don't think I would be wanting you to teach me anything. To me, continuing to spout the "I have 3.5 years in graduate work" makes me very suspicious of exactly what you studied and how much you actually got out of the 3.5 years.

---

by: Fiona @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:06:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

<Yawn>

I have a master's degree in Jewish history from Stanford. I have a year's coursework in the Visiting Graduate Student program at Hebrew University. And I am a year and a half toward my Ph.D. in American Jewish history at NYU. Do you want my GPA and GRE scores as well?

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:22:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

If So

Then why do you just state the 3.5 years? Why not give the degrees? "I have a Masters degree in Jewish History from Stanford University and I'm a year and a half into my Ph.D. at NYU" sounds a hell of a lot better than "3.5 years graduate study." There is a big difference in how it sounds and what it means. You could have taken the same courses over and over for three years because you failed them. You could be another one of those "professional students." The fact that you continue to use the 3.5 years makes me suspicious. Since the internet is an easy place to truly be annonymous in, it's very easy to say you are someone or something that you are not. It's easy to say you have all this experience or schooling and we have to take your word that it's true. Well, I have a problem taking your word on anything after all that I've read from you. You don't write like a person who has been as far through graduate school as you claim to have been. You don't write like a person who has a masters degree and is in a doctorate program at the schools you mention. You may have these degrees, but your writing style, your words and the content of your writing doesn't convey your supposed educational experience. For someone who claims to be a "Wordsmith", you have a lot to learn about how to use words to be convey your meaning. If Stanford is spitting out degrees to people who articulate like you do, then their standards have really fallen over the years.

---

by: Fiona @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 09:57:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fiona

Fiona, there's a two-word phrase that comes to mind given the way you operate, but if I use it for too many people it'll dilute its effect. So no offense but I'm going to reserve the phrase for Pam Spaulding.

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 14:52:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's OK David

Seeing as how you can't seem to think up any insults worthy of someone in graduate school any better than you seem to be able to write in a manner worthy of someone with your 'credentials', I certainly don't mind sharing your very juvenile attempt at an insult, even though I know seventh grade dropouts who could think up better ones than this. It really is a very teenage gutter attempt at insulting someone. Most unworthy of you David...maybe.

Hey Pam, can I get one of those avatars like yours? David says I can share the insult. I'll share my 'Queen of the Lesbians' title he gave me a few weeks ago if I can.

---

by: Fiona @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 15:04:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Better yet

Why don't you give Stanford permission to verify your degrees to the press? Wikipedia does not say BA from Stanford, either, although it does list Undergraduate Studies there.


susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 16:02:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry

Susan_F, I would respond to your post but it's not in MLA format.

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 18:27:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

In Other Words Susan

He won't respond to your post because you are being mean to him. You see he is perfectly capable of talking down and being condescending and rude to others, but gosh darn it, they aren't supposed to actually come back at him with the same attitude! That's just not right! Only David is allowed to have those attitudes. Next thing you know, Pam and I will have to share the famous insult with you too. That's OK though. You can share my "Queen of the Lesbians" title as well. I don't mind.

---

by: Fiona @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 18:51:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

We could get matching T-shirts

That would be kinda cool, actually.

And I would be honored to share the title(s) with both of you.

Just too bad the tag did not come from a more worthy opponent.  

susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 19:30:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You are the one who does't like formal citations

And that was a childish evasion.  

susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 18:52:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

New Policy

I just wanted to let everyone know I have a new policy. For every 50 needless insults lobbed my way but supporters of "marriage equality," I will write an op-ed in a major newspaper about why marriage is between a man and a woman (but not supporting Prop. 8). If it hits 250, I will go back to spending several hours a day attacking the "marriage equality" movement (but not supporting Prop. 8). It's up to you. Oh, and Susan_F - I'm counting your needless insults double. And Pam Spaulding's (NB) count quintuple. It's up to you guys.

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:03:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Raise your hand if you give a rat's A$$ about David's op eds

seeing none....

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:08:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

If your marriage pieces fail to feature..

If your published marriage pieces fail to feature Mrs Larry Craig, Mrs. David DIAPER Vitter, Mrs. Ted Haggard, and Charlie Crist's fiance/beard, then you are a LIAR.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:13:27 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

How many insults does it take for me to get the coveted flashy BITCH avatar?

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:28:23 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

speaking of a nice jewish girl with a penis

David, does Ken Mehlman in high heels flip your switch?

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:31:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Darn

You couldn't come up with something better than this? Are we supposed to be scared? Should we begin looking for hiding places? You sound almost exactly like a school yard bully who has realized that his "victims" aren't as scared of him as he first thought. If you are waiting for us to start shivering in fear, sit back and relax. I think you will have a long wait. You just aren't that important or that threatening.  

---

by: Fiona @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 17:17:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Math

Fiona-

I was thinking of counting that as three, but it's really two, don't you think? Yeah, two.

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 18:42:21 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Are You Sure

you are in university David? You act more like you are in Jr. High. I read your words and get this urge to make faces at you and go Nyah, Nyah, but I would have to lower myself to your level to actually do so, and I don't want to go that low.

---

by: Fiona @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:45:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

At least the

Complutense and Duke gave me reasonably enlightened and accepting outlooks conserning other human beings.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 19:00:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Hm...

Reform Judaism, like Messianic Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism, is not Judaism.

I'm sure that people practicing Conservative/Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism aren't true Scotsmen either.

---

by: M @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 06:26:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The same braggart wanted conversations with me on queerty

He never came back, seemed rude and cowardly.

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 20:20:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Awaiting the juicy story

What an intriguing statement! "I recently learned quite a bit of disturbing information"

I can't think of anything more likely to generate curiosity and speculation.... I wonder what this mysterious "disturbing information" might be!  Since at least two people now know this secret, my suspicion is that it's not going to stay a secret too long, and that there's a juicy story behind this!

---

by: phelps @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 10:54:52 AM CDT

hmmmm

maybe the "straight" husbands don't want to play with DB anymore.  That would be "disturbing information"  wouldn't it?

---

by: keltic @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:06:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Why

does someone like Benkof get so much attention?   Sure he says ridiculous things to get attention, but that doesn't mean others need to indulge him in it.  

---

by: scioto @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 11:22:41 AM CDT

Getting attention

Scioto-

If I really wanted to get attention, I would write an op-ed about the things I've discovered. I'm certain the San Francisco Chronicle or LA Times, both of which have run my work before, would be happy to use it. Yes, I'm getting a little attention, mostly in self-serving gay circles, for leaving the marriage debate. But people will move on tomorrow. Compare that to the average of one major op-ed and 1-2 minor op-eds I was having published in mainstream newspapers every day. I had a piece about marriage in today's Paducah Sun, for example. I'm giving all that up. If this was about attention, wouldn't I keep going, especially since my success in getting national placements for the things I write was only growing?

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 13:34:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's it

This is entirely a publicity stunt, eh David.

There was no revelation, just as there were no cogent or factual claims in the various screeds you've managed to get published.

You were falling off the radar into oblivion, you'd used up your 15 minutes of fame Andy promised, and this is your way of grabbing the spotlight again.

---

by: FriendOfJonathan @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 14:48:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Falling off the radar into oblivion

This week alone, I have pieces relating to the marriage debate in today's Paducah Sun (won't be posted on line until tomorrow) and in tomorrow's San Jose Mercury News (the second largest paper in the SF Bay Area, a major market in the most important gay-marriage battleground state). I have understandings with three major (I mean major) daily newspapers to run approximately one opinion piece of mine a month. Yet I have voluntarily decided to stop writing about marriage.

I know a lot of aspiring opinion writers who would love to fall off the radar into oblivion, if that's indeed what I have been doing.

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 15:12:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oblivion?

The fastest way to get published right now would be to present as a gay or as a lesbian who is opposed to the more community-mainstream views on adoption, same-sex marriage, and employment rights.  Nearly anyone off us could get published in any number of newspapers, and probably feature in television interviews.  Were we to come out against same-sex marriage, gay adoption or other issues of LGBT rights.

Were I, tomorrow, to call O'Reilly and say that I would be willing to go on his show in opposition to gay men being permitted around children, as a danger and a health hazard, I would become the instant darling of right of center media in general.

Your pride in your so-called accomplishment, David, is sadly misplaced.

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

---

by: MauraHennessey @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 16:20:42 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're really not paying attention

Maura-

That's precisely my point. If this was about gaining publicity for myself, I'd do precisely what I had been doing, and my fame would only increase, particularly as the election approached. Instead, I stopped, which you would do to (I hope) if you learned about your side's leaderhip the things I learned about my side's leadership (not counting Maggie Gallagher).

So which is it - am I a media whore for publicly opposing same-sex marriage, or am I a media whore for stopping to publicly oppose same-sex marriage? Or do you just pick whatever opinion will make me look bad?

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 16:48:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You know what I hear?

I hear a silly publicity seeking whiner in love with the sound of his own words.

You'll do anything to get attention -- and that includes saying you're stopping.  What's the matter Dave, did your tired dronings start to bore even those considering you a useful tool?

My theory is you're just not satisfied unless the world is not all about David Benkof.  Allegedly (and for the moment) "quitting" is not an aberration from that scheme -- it feeds right into it.  You want to think the whole world is wondering about you.  What are David's reasons for quitting?  What are his motives?  

You are a textbook example of a self-indulgent narcissist; that's all you are -- and you should just be booted from this blog as being incapable of adult debate.  We should wash our hands of you instead of giving you the attention you so desperately crave.

---

by: Firefly @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 17:06:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Proposal

I have an idea, Firefly, why don't you and I send a joint letter to Pam Spaulding (NB) requesting that she shut down this page altogether. That way I'll get less publicity. What do you say?

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 20:07:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sounds like you could use a hug.

---

by: eschewv @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 18:21:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

More than a hug

Just a hug?

More like a massage with a happy ending-- maybe a couple happy endings.

I see a lot of pent up stress from Dave.

---

by: JJ in Chicago @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 07:51:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

You don't need any help...

...looking bad. I think you're doing an outstanding job of that without any aid whatsoever

---

by: Margaret @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 18:29:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

If you'd tell us

what you learned about

about my side's leadership (not counting Maggie Gallagher).

We could tell you what type of whore you are.

---

by: juicyjuice @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 18:54:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Or maybe....

...you'd just troll Pam's blog making ad homenim attacks and baseless accusations....

---

by: Margaret @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 15:54:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Stay classy, David!

And remember that the closet door is always unlocked.

---

by: halloweenjack @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 12:29:20 PM CDT

Benkof once again

Proves he lacks professionalism and integrity, something I come to expect from someone who lies about and misquotes people.

---

by: Rob79 @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 13:26:59 PM CDT

Idea time

I think Pam needs to add this one onto the endorsement list.

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

---

by: Louise @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 15:11:49 PM CDT

Maggie Gallagher

All one needs to read is how much he adores Maggie Gallagher,(never would have figured her for a fag-hag), she of being on the chimp's propaganda payroll and the person who believes that all sexual predators are gay, (conveniently ignoring the 90+% of sex crimes done by heterosexuals. I'm sorry that you so loathe yourself that you feel drawn to this site to make inflammatory remarks so the rest of us will loathe you too. I'll bet your therapist takes expensive vacations on your dime.

---

by: Margaret @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 15:59:03 PM CDT

I know you have a thick skin and all, Pam...

...but I still want to pass on something I got from some colleagues at a job where I was harassed for being queer:

Did you know BITCH is an acronym?  It stands for Babe In Total Control of Herself.

"More than half of modern culture depends on what one shouldn't read." -- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest

---

by: Switchhttr69 @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 16:53:40 PM CDT

I wouldn't waste ten seconds Googling you pal.

You have nothing to say to me.If you think being "published" in the Op-Ed pages qualifies you to be seen as a political pundit, you're even more deluded than I thought. Publicity mad whore.

---

by: hank @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 17:32:56 PM CDT

my latest endorsement -- from Benkof

The Blend is getting quite popular, garnering more entertaining endorsements each day...

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 18:43:14 PM CDT

Very Good Pam!

He does seem to be adding to your popularity online.

---

by: Fiona @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 19:08:04 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Endorsement

Thank you, Pam! Use it in good health.

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 20:10:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I dislike ganging up

I'm not impressed with the way people have been piling on to Mr Benkof. I've no idea if their reasons are good, and I don't care. The truth will out, whether quietly whispered or incoherently shrieked. The latter does not help though.

I am interested in his reasons, so enigmatically hinted at. Perhaps he'd care to give the general outline, if not the specifics.

I'm also fascinated by the "More Hebrew Than Thou" bits of the debate. It was only when I was doing some work for the IDF at Haifa Naval Base about a year ago, that I found out that because my mother's mother's mother's mother was Jewish, I'm technically a Red Sea Pedestrian too. Oi Ve.

As I'm intersexed, and biologically more female than male, it's an interesting question as to whether my son qualifies too. If Thomas Beattie was Jewish, what about his daughter? For that matter, what about the whole issue of surrogacy - if a Jewish woman with Swyer syndrome (hence genetically male) gives birth to a child via donated egg and sperm, is the child Jewish? What about a surrogate mother who is genetically female? Is it the egg or the mother that is Jewish?

I've been hanging around with Israelis too long. Talmudaic disputation is contagious.

There is no situation so complex it can't get even worse

---

by: ZoeB @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:28:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Red Sea Pedestrian

Your "Red Sea Pedestrian" comment made me laugh out loud - a needed reaction in Pam Spaulding's (NB) mostly humorless domain, for sure.

Intersex issues are indeed dealt with by the Talmud and by contemporary rabbis. The subject is very complex, and unfortunately too many rabbis don't take it seriously or think the topic exists to challenge their worldview, rather than being a biological fact. If you indeed have serious questions (what side of a prayer barrier should I sit in if I go to synagogue? Am I supposed to wear tefillin? What kind of circumcision, if any, should I have given the nature of my genitalia?) I would be more than happy to help you find a rabbi who will treat you with respect and dignity and research the issues involved (because I guarantee you whatever rabbi you go to will not already know all the answers). I can be reached at DavidBenkof@aol.com.

---

by: DavidBenkof @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:09:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It wasn't hers

It wasn't (her) "Red Sea Pedestrian" comment. She borrowed it from Monty Python's "The Life of Brian". Still, I wouldn't expect a self loathing closet case like yourself to know that.

---

by: Margaret @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 16:07:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

As far as kids are concerned

David (to his credit) is correct that most Rabbis would have to research it to give you answers to your specific questions.

Basic rule of thumb for making sure that your child is considered Jewish by those who might dispute it is to have a conversion ceremony for the child, just in case (its done with adoptees all the time).

As to you, my friend, you are indeed one of us, by birth. Welcome to the tribe(s).  

susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 18:35:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

?

Where did the self-hating twit leave his "nasty bitch" comment? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

More irritating than his warped arguments is his obsession with responding to every one of his critics personally. He doesn't seem to have enough self-confidence to let his articles speak for themselves. He always has to attack everyone who criticizes him personally. He really does have some emotional problems, methinks.

---

by: gideonse @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 01:23:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

his comment was "downgraded"

by a bunch of readers (giving it a rating of zero), and that usually results in it being "hidden". It's still there, not deleted.

---

by: Pam Spaulding @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 05:23:51 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's OK

I downgraded everything related to 'Benkof' once I remembered that he's the Twit Formerly Known as David Bianco.

Kat

>^..^<

---

by: KatRose @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 12:05:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Pam, you are a rizing star, just a few more

   and you will make #1 on the Peter's list instead of #10

Pam Spaulding is a leading source of radical homosexual propaganda, anti-Christian bigotry, and radical transgender advocacy who runs a radical, reason-challenged, pro-homosexual websites all while being a vicious anti-christian lesbian activist with the charm of a nutty lesbian blogger and at the same time driving others nuts as they scream "I have been mocked over and over again by ungodly and unprincipled anti-christian lesbians." and to be topped of with a Nasty Bitch.

 As a matter of Fact, that could be one Hell-ov-a Resume for a champaign manager.

If I make sense? it was quite by accident.

---

by: HappyCat @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 02:38:55 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Excellent resume material, I agree

If you ever want a paying gig doing liberal/progressive commentary, I would think choice bits of slander from Mr. Bonkof and The Peter would make for excellent references. It takes no small skill to whip people like them into a frothing rage.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même merde.

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by: TechBear @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:38:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Now EVERYONE will want an avatar with" NASTY BITCH" flashing

color me pea green with envy

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 19:32:43 PM CDT

Yeah, who do I have to piss off

to get one of THOSE?

Guess I win arguments with the wrong self-styled 'wordsmiths', because I haven't yet been so honored for being right all along.

But wait, there's more!

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by: PhoenixRising @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 22:24:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

self-haters

Ugh. There's nothing I hate more than self-haters. (Which probably doesn't help them much, but....) Could you all (Daivd Benkof and friends) go back to your caves of depression and stop holding back the movement towards equality?  It would help the rest of us immensely.

"It's not about sexual orientation. It's about partnership." --my ninety-year-old grandfather

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by: Beej @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 22:32:32 PM CDT

Another one....

for the LEFT SIDE BAR!!!!

Charley sez ---- Bat sh*t crazies amuse me!

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by: vwboy81 @ Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 22:43:47 PM CDT

My letters

are often printed in The New York Times. That must mean I'm VERY important.
Plus, I have 8 3/4 years of schooling, so I know alot more than everybody else.

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by: hank @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 08:23:20 AM CDT

I score higher in golf

than everyone else and it takes me longer to finish a round... so I must be the world's best golfer, not that Tiger Woods kid. ;)

"It goes on one at a time, it starts when you care to act, it starts when you do it again after they said no, it starts when you say We and know who you mean, and each day you mean one more."

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by: Louise @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 11:25:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

MS. Spaulding, if you're NASTY.....

que up Janet Jackson video

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 10:58:36 AM CDT

Why Maggie Gallagher?

That question keeps coming up.  I'm not sure if this is the correct answer, but this is what I have found.
At Boxturtlebulletin David Benkof claims he did not own the gaysdefendmarriage.com site. If a domain search is run, David Benkof is listed as the technical and the administrative contact (set up in South Carolina).  His contact email is listed as "Benkof, David webbsgarbage@yahoo.com."

I did a search for this email address and it came up with another name--that of Maggie Gallagher (http://www.alexa.com/data/details/main/marriagedebate.com) who runs the Institute of Marriage and Public Policy:

"Gallagher, Margaret
Institute for Marriage and Public Policy, PO Box 1231
Manassas, VA
20108
US

Phone: +1 202 216 9430
webbsgarbage [at] yahoo.com"

She runs the marriagedebate.com website. I don't know if this is a real email address, but I find it interesting that both David Benkof and Maggie Gallagher list the same email address.

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by: kkaatz @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 14:39:22 PM CDT

I was just informed...

that David Benkof wasn't always the contact person for Gaysdefendmarriage.com.  On June 17 it was someone named "Webb, Lisa    lwebb@manhattan-institute.org."  And that changed soon after to David Benkof.

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by: kkaatz @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 15:07:10 PM CDT

About the "nasty bitch" thing

What is disappointing, yet not surprising, to me is that someone as devoutly religious as David Benkof claims to be would resort to calling another human being a "nasty bitch."

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by: Fannie @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 16:05:20 PM CDT

Is it a sin?

My understanding is it's a sin to call someone who is not, in fact, for example, a vegetarian a "vegetarian." But since we're talking about someone who despises meat quite openly, I know of no religious principle violated in calling someone a vegetarian when she is, plainly, clearly, and obviously, a vegetarian.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 18:34:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Maybe you should Google it

From the Judaism 101 website:

It is a violation of this mitzvah to say anything about another person, even it is true, even if it is not negative, even if it is not secret, even if it hurts no one, even if the person himself would tell the same thing if asked! It is said that the telling of gossip leads to bloodshed, which is why the next words in the Torah are "you shall not stand aside while your fellow's blood is shed." The story of Do'eig the Edomite (I Samuel Chs. 21-22) is often used to illustrate the harm that can be done by tale-bearing. Do'eig saw Achimelekh the Kohein give David bread and a sword, a completely innocent act intended to aid a leading member of Saul's court. Do'eig reported this to Saul. Do'eig's story was completely true, not negative, not secret, and Achimelekh would have told Saul exactly the same thing if asked (in fact, he did so later). Yet Saul misinterpreted this tale as proof that Achimelekh was supporting David in a rebellion, and proceeded to slaughter all but one of the kohanim at Nob.

http://www.jewfaq.org/speech.htm

susanferman.wordpress.com

---

by: Susan_F @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 18:43:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

From the same Web site

"Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent... The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest....

A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste....

Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness."

Susan_F, if you will endorse everything stated above as true and binding on all Jews, I will apologize to Pam Spaulding (NB) and withdraw my claim about her. Otherwise, you're just picking and choosing. I am willing to endorse both sets of comments if you are. Let me know.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:12:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Change the topic

If you can't win an honest debate on the merits of your argument.

Nice try, though.  

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:48:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

But is it a sin

to refer to someone as "ex-gay"?

My America includes LGBT families.

---

by: Mena @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 19:05:25 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Benkof's 'manners'

It seems that as long as he thinks he is holding the upper hand in any conversation, discussion, or thread, he will simply maintain his smug, condescending demeanor. But when he starts to lose, he either leaves in a huff, claiming that he is not being given the respect he deserves, or people aren't being fair to him, or he doesn't like the way he is being addressed, or what-have you. The use of the term 'nasty bitch', and it's little cousin, NB, merely show the quality of 'wordsmith' that he purports to be. Personally, I find it a little sad and very unbecoming. I guess if reasoned arguments won't win his cases, playground insults will. Funny thing, though, George Will never resorted to that, let alone a host of other writers. Wonder why?  

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by: MirrorMan @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 19:28:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

in 1995 this pompous ex-gay a$$ imagined he be in a het marriage SOON

I guess finding a nice Jewish girl with a penis proved more difficult to find than David first thought.

matchmaker
matchmaker
make a match,
find me a find,
catch me a catch....

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 at 21:27:59 PM CDT

Maybe they all googled him

susanferman.wordpress.com

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by: Susan_F @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:30:12 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Honestly

What Jewish mother (or any mother for that matter...doesn't have to be Jewish) would let their daughter marry a man who would be spending his wedding night (and future nights as well) fantasizing that the poor girl is a man. Besides, David is beginning to push 40. He is getting to the end of his "good catch" days. And he is still a student. Maybe the "professional student" tag isn't so far fetched.

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by: Fiona @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 17:11:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Wow you know nothing about the shidduch market

Fiona-

If I was an Orthodox Jewish woman and I was 22, I would be getting to the end of my "good catch" days. If I'm still single at 50, I can date - and maybe marry - quite attractive women in their late 20s who are still young enough to bear several children. It's unfortunate, and suprising (to me at first, at least), but the shidduch market totally favors men. Even gay men. Ask anyone.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 00:37:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't want to know

anything about the sidduch market and really don't care to know about you either. I'm happily married with a wonderful family, and didn't need any "market" to get that way thank you very much. Perhaps you do need it though because, if the market favors men like you so much, why is it 18 years that you have been looking for the lucky little lady (god help her if she actually exists) and still are unmarried? Wasn't it 1995 you said you would be in a marriage soon? By your own words you should be spending your nights agonizing over teenage children by now instead of "blessing" us with your very unwelcome presence. I guess your 3.5 years of graduate work must have taken too much of your free time to look for just the right girl. Lucky for her.

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by: Fiona @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:31:40 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've more time in grad school

and managed to get married in a het marriage, have children and later come out as a Lesbian and an activist(I am probably older than David though, bu half a decade or so)

As for the "markets:" Sweet Mother Goddess, what a self declarative piece of patriarchial blathering upon David's part!

Tell that story to some of the Reform women that I know who are Lesbians and watch the storm break...

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:39:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

By his Wiki bio

David would be 38 now though you can't count his bio as being all the truth. It's very sloppily put together and is at the stub quality scale which is one of the lowest grades an article can get there.

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by: Fiona @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 09:52:59 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ouch!

Your assertion that I'm 38 (I'm actually 37) is unbelievably offensive to me. I demand an apology. Like most gay men, I am extremely vain and narcissistic, and refuse to allow anyone to claim I am even a day older than I am. My birthday is October 9, 1970. You do the math.

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by: DavidBenkof @ Sun Jul 20, 2008 at 01:42:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And you bring up

a very good point. I've been wanting to tell David that he had no reason to think he could be so condescending and lordly in his attitude here since just at this blog alone there are people who are better educated, have more university and college degrees, more publishing experience, better writers, have a better family life, more possessions, the list goes on and on. But when I thought about better writers, I thought specifically of you. You have such a grasp of the written word. It comes across even in the short blog posts here.

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by: Fiona @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 10:00:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Most kind Fiona

It is the one thing that most lawyers do reasonably well.
Now, if I could only learn to type reasonably well...

I tell you Chica that no greater abomination exists than women denying their spirit of sisterhood and instead becoming the oppressor. -Rebeca, Universidad Complutense de Madrid

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by: MauraHennessey @ Fri Jul 18, 2008 at 06:50:45 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I see that he has now had a 'policy change':

At Rob's blog (http://thepoliticalspectrum.blogspot.com/2008/07/david-benkof-closes-down-his-blog-and.html) David Benkof writes:

"I just wanted to let you know of my new policy. Starting today Wednesday, I will be keeping a running total of the needless insults sent my way by supporters of "marriage equality" (your most recent comment would count as two). For every 50 I find, I will write one more op-ed in a major newspaper opposing "marriage equality" (but not supporting Prop. 8). If it hits 250, I'll start spending several hours a day again fighting the "marriage-equality" movement. It's really up to you and your allies."

Just as I thought--this is nothing but a publicity stunt.  Hopefully this comment will be sent to newspapers if he happens to write again (and if they happen to print anything he writes).

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by: kkaatz @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 16:39:04 PM CDT

Start writing your op ed David

FLASHING caption
  http://www.southernvoice.com/2...
"NEAR QUEER"

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 17:19:45 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

or Star Jones's 2nd husband

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

---

by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 17:21:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

or "HAMPSTER HUNG"

What have you done today, to make ya feel PROUD?


~Heather Small

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by: peteyPornpig @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 17:24:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Man...

...I just came back here to see if this whole thread was still going, thinking that it probably had died out or Benkof had been booted or something.  I expected maybe one or two new comments at the most.  But 17??? No way!  Lol.

And to read through them jeez...it seems like Benkof has reverted to showing that he really is attention starved with his bad comments telethon scheme.  I was already amused with the "nasty bitch" comment because it was so out of left field and a bit "diva/queeny" (in my opinion), but I never thought he'd show his hand this badly.  How childish.

But it's entertaining.  Gotta give him that.

One question though David:  Does you giving up writing about man-woman marriage in the US mean that you'll have MORE time to devote to bad arguments on gay blogs?

Just curious cause it seems to be shaping up that way.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

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by: popsiclestand @ Thu Jul 17, 2008 at 05:24:05 AM CDT